Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (2:30)

I have, do I have a New York accent?

Dr. Richard Leduc (2:33)

Of course you do.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (2:34)

Yeah. Okay. And I'm wearing a hard hat. That's, that's like sitting on a Beam as I'm up there.

Dr. Richard Leduc (2:41)

Yeah, right. And it's the 40s, so obviously there's no fall equipment.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (2:45)

You're just like, ocean doesn't exist.

Dr. Richard Leduc (2:47)

Ocean doesn't exist. That's how you come to the podcast every week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're from Local 131.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (2:59)

Like they had unions. That's why there was no OSHA standards. The reality is that there's a lot on some of these sections. There are some that you can, you know, we can cover. I mean, frankly, we, we could, we could spend hours on every one of them. So this is just a brief overview. So if you're wondering why is he not spending eight parts on doctrine and covenants section 10, it's because I am abridging it and that that word's gonna come in handy later. So that's actually our vocabulary word of the day. When we mention it again, Richard, I need you to drop some balloons and.

Dr. Richard Leduc (3:43)

Yeah, yeah. Cherry is gonna get really excited. Like, it's Pee Wee's Playhouse.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (3:49)

Yeah, I don't know that anyone, certainly none of our missionaries listening, have any idea what you just said?

Dr. Richard Leduc (3:55)

Oh, no, no. But the reason I wanted to make sure is not C H E R R Y like a chair. That's a person that screams when you say abridgment.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (4:07)

Yeah, I'm waiting for that day. A long awaited day. Doctrine of a Section 10, for starters, is a little bit ambiguous in its dating. Now, part of our problem is that the first page of this manuscript is the earliest manuscript copy we have is missing. It's part of the missing pages from the manuscript revelation book called the Book of Commandments and Revelations. Now, it's positioned in that book as if it is a revelation that was given in April of 1829. Well, you might be wondering, well then why is it so far at the end of all these other April revelations? In fact, it positioned it in between two April revelations when it was published. So our first date that we get on it is the date that is published with it, and that is it's published with a May 1829 date. So a May 1829 date. Now this has, you know, Joseph and Oliver are translating full steam. It's the same month in which they're going to receive the power of God and baptize one another with their visitation from John the Baptist. So it kind of does matter when it's received because all of the revelations that are taking place during this early portion of the Doctrine and Covenants are all at least partially related, if not directly related to the translation of the Book of Mormon. What they're translating has a lot to do with what it is that they are asking, the questions they're asking. And part of the issue is that when they were compiling the manuscript history of the Church, so when Joseph and his scribes were compiling it, that history actually initially placed this a few days after Doctrine and covenants section three, and doctrine and covenant section three is in 1828. So you can see the problem here that this is a revelation that was by at least one source received in 1828, by another source received in May of 1829, and by another source received in April of 1829. Those are all not the same date. For those of you keeping score at home, they're different dates. Now, we don't know exactly when doctrine covenant section three is received. Our date is July 1828. And the history with its notation said that doctrine covenant section 10 was received a few days later. So it's interesting because the later sources seem to place it pretty firmly in this 1829 early translation portion, which has caused people to say maybe what predicated this revelation Was Oliver and Joseph asking the question, what do we do now that we've translated all through the large plates? And now we need to make up for that, that lost 116 pages that are in the Book of Lehi. Is this the Revelation, Doctrine and Covenant Section 10, where the question is asked, what do you, what do you want me to do now that we've gotten through it? Now the interesting aspect of that though is that Joseph has already gone through the, the, the remainder of the translation at that point. So if you place this revelation solely In a late May 1829, Joseph's asking the question about which plates to translate after he's already answered the question of continuing to translate the large plates and not going back to the small plates. One way we have a good idea of knowing how they worked on the translation is with the handwriting that we still have and with the questions that they ask as they're going throughout. The natural assumption of every person who's ever read the Book of Mormon is that they translated it the same way that we read it. That's a natural, normal assumption. It's a very normal assumption to think that an author wrote chapter one before they wrote Chapter nine. It's actually the most natural thing in the world to make that assumption to the point where we don't ever have authors say in their notes to the book. They don't say in their forward or in Their introduction. Hey, just so you know, I wrote chapter three way before I wrote chapter one. That's not a normal thing. The assumption is the book progresses as the author writes it. What we know from the revelations that Joseph Smith has received and from the handwriting of what we still have of the original manuscript of the Book of Mormon is that is not what they did. They didn't lose the 116 pages. Oliver Cowdery shows up in harmony. And then they just go back and it's I Nephi. Having been born of goodly parents, they apparently, at least all of the indications are, continue from where they had left off. However many pages Joseph kept that didn't go with Martin Harris to the lost 116 land. And they kept going through Mosiah all the way to the end of the Mormon's plates, the plates that were abridged by Mormon and then went back and used the small plates. So the May 1829 date for all of it doesn't fit terribly well outside of, you know, perhaps they're asking the question of what do we do now? The April 1829 date also might fit. But again, unless it's received before Joseph and Oliver begin their translation, when Oliver shows up, then they seem to be responding to what this revelation says by the very course they've taken in what they're doing. First and foremost, they don't try to retranslate the Book of Lehigh. How do they know not to retranslate the Book of Lehi? Well, because of this revelation, perhaps the issue came up again as they were finishing the larger plates. And when the issue came up again, they were like, what do we do now? Do we retranslate the Book of Lehi? So the other problem is, not only does that history place the date of this revelation in 1828, much of the text of the Revelation fits much better in an 1828 context than it does in an 1829 context. In 1828 is when they're trying to figure out what to do, that the pages are gone. Martin Harris is not right with the Lord in 1828, but Section 10 is speaking about the pages almost as if they've just barely been lost. And so the conclusion that scholars have drawn, and in fact the conclusion that is now represented by the Church in the section heading to Section 10, is that it's possible that portions of this revelation were received in 1828, and then more information was received on top of that in 1829. We sometimes call this a composite revelation, meaning it's Just it's received in two parts. We have multiple revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants that are received in two separate parts, or we have multiple revelations that are received as completely separate revelations, that for brevity's sake, the compilers of the Doctrine and covenants back in 1835 or 1844, they. They pushed the two revelations together into a single section, even though they were individually received revelations. A great example of this is doctrine, covenant, section 42. Section 42 is a mammoth, sweeping revelation that's encompassing the law of consecration, chastity, the way that a bishop functions with his duties. I mean, there's a lot there in Doctrine and Covenant, Section 42. And we know that most of it is received on one occasion. And then Joseph explains that it's a few weeks later that the last portion of it is received. When they publish it in the Doctrine and Covenants, they don't call it, you know, section. You know, they don't say that this is section 1A and this is section 1B. This is section 42. Sorry if I misspoke that. But section 42 is just this massive, massive revelation. And they don't say, this is section 42A and this is section 42B. They just published the whole thing together as section 42. Joseph will make revisions to the Doctrine and Covenants multiple times. For Joseph, it always seemed like the most important aspect of any revelation was that you understood it. He did not think that the individual words of text were completely immutable and could never be changed. He believed the point of the revelation was for you to understand it so that you can change your life, so that you can be something else.

Dr. Richard Leduc (15:25)

But, Garrett, that is quite different than, I think, how most people would look at Scripture, Right. They look at it literally like Moses coming down from the mountain with tablets. And there's exactly what the Lord would have, you know, on a specific thing.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (15:41)

Yeah. And that is the result of living for 500 years inside of the bubble created by the Protestant Reformation, that Scripture, because it becomes the founding part, the primary way to truth, as far as Martin Luther is concerned, is the Bible and the Bible alone. There is no other truth about God that doesn't come from the Bible. Now, that's very different than the Catholic religion, which believes that both tradition and scripture are the guiding pathway to what is right. So, you know, a Protestant might say, well, you can't show me, you know, you know, blank Catholic doctrine in the Bible. And they think they've just won the argument, because to a Protestant, if it ain't in the Bible, it ain't. If you can't show it to me in the Bible, it doesn't matter.

Dr. Richard Leduc (16:48)

I can't remember if I mentioned this or not on the podcast. I can't imagine that I did. But I just saw a clip just a couple weeks ago from a Catholic priest talking about that. That Protestants will come at the Catholic Church about. About purgatory not being in the Bible. And he said, show me where Trinity is in the Bible, which is a fundamental belief for all Christians. So it was. The Catholic's point was like, just because it's not there doesn't mean it's not there, I think, was his point.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (17:19)

It's a very judicious use of claim there too, for, For a Catholic, because Protestants, of course, have beliefs that are not expressly stated in the Bible that they, you know, kind of funge around. What is there to try to say. Yeah, yeah, you know, that's what that means. I mean, just like using, you know, Second Corinthians to prove that there's infant baptism. Right? I mean, no, no. I mean, if his whole, if his whole house was baptized in Acts, obviously there were babies. I mean, I mean, that's a real argument that's made like, well, if his whole household's baptized, clearly that must have been babies in the household. It was such a weird argument to claim. I have no idea what his household's made up of, but I guarantee you there were infants there and that they baptized them. That proves infant baptism. And so look, that's a great point where a Catholic is going to say, truth doesn't come just from the Scriptures. Why do we believe the Trinity? Because we've always believed it. And the people who are closer to the Apostles and the Apostolic Fathers, we should trust that they got it right, not trust that they got it wrong. We should just trust that, yep, it's a trinity because it's always been the Trinity. Now, of course, I can find all kinds of scriptures in the Bible to help support my argument for the Trinity. Some of them added during the Dark Ages, but you can find all kinds of verses that will be then used to try to defend it. But the point for a Catholic is truth comes from both places, tradition and Scripture.

Dr. Richard Leduc (19:07)

Right?

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (19:08)

But for Protestants, Scripture only. Only Scripture can. Can speak for God. Only Scripture can. Can give you what the truth of God actually is. And it is absolutely fixed and unchangeable. Protestants wrestled with this a little bit with when various new translations of the Bible came out, because each new translation, of course, sounded Differently than the translation in the past. Right? So if you have the Geneva Bible and Calvin's Bible and you move to the King James Bible, well, that doesn't sound exactly the same. And if you move from the King James Bible to the new international version, well. Well, that's not going to sound the same. Right. So Protestants occasionally wrestle with this just even in the translations. But culturally, there is a belief that Scripture cannot ever be altered for any reason. Joseph Smith clearly does not believe this. You don't need, I mean, you don't have to be a member of MENSA to realize that Joseph Smith doesn't believe that Scripture cannot be amended. The entirety of the Bible translation is Joseph Smith going through and saying, looks like they missed a spot. You know what? Oh, oh, oh, you forgot about this here or you're not getting the real meaning there. Similarly, when the Book of Mormon is prepared for republication in 1837, Joseph Smith isn't going to just take what they have and publish it. He is going to make dozens and dozens and dozens of revisions. Some of them are because Joseph thinks, clearly, he thinks that the wrong word was published. That what he said Oliver Cowdery misheard. And so he's changing, you know, weed to read, you know, something like that. Others, Joseph is clearly editing for clarity. He is clearly going through and saying, okay, okay, we, we don't need 19. And it came to pass in this one page. Let's have four. We, we don't need all of them. Every verse doesn't need an end. It came to pass. And so Joseph's there redacting out, and it came to pass. Now even some members of the church will, will feel this natural belief that there's something wrong with that. They'll feel this, Wait a minute, why would Joseph, I mean, they start, it starts to rise with him. And when you think about this, how do you even have the text of the Book of Mormon? God gave the text miraculously to the prophet Joseph Smith. It's quite an odd thing to say. God has the ability to give Joseph Smith the text, but he doesn't have the ability to give Joseph Smith the inspiration to adjust the text. Now someone might say, well, I mean, why didn't he get it right the first time? Well, maybe it's not a question of right or wrong. Sometimes it's a question of our understanding, which is changing over time. I think when Joseph alters some of his Doctrine and Covenants revelations, he alters them to help people understand what the, the offices of the church. Now are you Know, a revelation that has all the offices of the church but doesn't have one of the offices that gets revealed after that isn't very helpful for someone studying the revelations on the offices of the church. But because many people listening, I would say most, if you're in North America, we come from this Protestant world that scripture trumps everything that we struggle with. The idea that Joseph Smith just doesn't share your worldview. He is not a Protestant. He is not Martin Luther claiming that every word is absolutely, you know, just sacred before God. In fact, he believes that through revelation things can change over time, which is what you should expect from a true and living church. I mean, you should expect that a prophet has the ability to receive it. But, you know, as Jesus learned, people are more than willing to build up dead prophets, they're just not willing to build up living ones. Right. A dead prophet will cast, you know, will cast all kinds of garlands on their sepulcher. But a living prophet, like, no, not that guy, he's just saying what he thinks. He's just been pressured by these other interest groups or something like that. So it is one of those fundamental questions of things surrounding this revelation. Because text is what we're talking about. The text of the 116 pages that have been stolen, regardless of when which part was received and when the later part was received. The interesting aspect of, of doctrine covenant, section 10 is it really is this odyssey, this frankly 2000 year odyssey of how these pages were going to be replaced. You can actually start with Nephi. I mean, so really we get all the way back to 2,600 years ago that Nephi is going to be inspired to do something. And he has no idea. If you go to the first book of Nephi, first Nephi, nine, this is at the end of Nephi talking in verse 8, all of the preaching that Lehi made to his sons, you know, and he wants them to be righteous and wants them to come partake of the fruit, the end of the discussion of the iron rod. So there's all kinds of beautiful teachings that are there in chapter eight. And Nephi starts off chapter nine by saying, in all these things did my father see and hear and speak as he dwelt in a tent in the valley of Lemuel, and then says something that is kind of. It's repeated over and over again in the Book of Mormon and also a great many more things which cannot be written upon these plates. So you get this reference, whether you're on the large plates or small plates, that These prophets are saying, like, I can't even begin to tell you all of the things. What you're getting is the bare minimum of things.

Dr. Richard Leduc (26:50)

Kind of like this podcast, Garrett.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (26:52)

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like I said, the world itself could not get. And the reason why that's helpful for me, because you're listening to the podcast now saying, well, I don't like this, but if I was able to share all of the things, then you would see. So just always have that in the back of your mind, like, I hate this podcast. I don't want to listen to it. I'm not even sure I want to stay on my mission anymore. If only I had the ability to tell you all the things then. Then you would. Yeah, just keep that in your back pocket. But Nephi is going to say in verse two, and now, as I've spoken concerning these plates, behold, they are not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people. For the plates upon which I make a full account of my people, I have given the name of Nephi, wherefore they are called the Plates of Nephi, after mine own name. And then in one of the worst naming conventions in all ancient history, Nephi then says, and these plates, the ones he's riding on now, are also called the Plates of Nephi. So thank you for clearing everything up. Nephi. You have two sets of plates, one called the Plates of Nephi, and then the other, quite differently named the Plates of Nephi. I think simply because Nephi was looking forward to our day and wanted to see seminary students fail that part of their test. They. They wanted to see students at byu, Idaho, not be able to figure out which plates were which. And Nephi says, you know what? You're gonna have to study hard for this. The point is, first, Nephi is from the small plates. It's not part of Mormon's abridgment, it's from the small plates. And the way that the Book of Mormon was created is Mormon gathered up the sources that he had and he abridged those large plates. So there was a large set of plates, very large, clearly, that contained a lot of the history as well as the religion of the Nephites. And Mormon's job was to be the first historian, basically, of this church to go through and to tell you what happened using the sources he had. That's the reason why when you read Mosiah and Alma and Helaman and 3rd Nephi, those chapters read incredibly easily. I mean, I don't want to toot Mormon's horn here. But my goodness, what an incredible historian. And I don't even know everything that he had to work with. But, you know, would that I could. I mean, Mormon wants to say if all men had been and ever would be likened to Captain Moroni, I would say if all historians are, were and ever had been, like in the Mormon, you know, we would be much better at the craft. He has this gigantic think of what the history he's writing here. He is writing this epic which starts 600 BC and ends 400 AD. He is writing the entire history of an entire people, wars, prophecies, and he has to condense it all down a thousand years into just a few hundred pages. I don't know how many sources he's consulted, he's looked at clearly. He's using the large plates as his guide. That's what he's abridging. So we sometimes talk about the Book of Lehi. Well, what was the Book of Lehi? Well, it was Mormon's abridgment of that part of the large plates of Nephi. So you have all of these plates that are compiled into this large book, this large set of plates. We also have many other records. Apparently that's what Amaron, you know, tells, you know, Mormon. There's plates falling off the back of milk trucks everywhere here. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of records. And Mormon's job is to take them primarily using those large plates and condense it down to something that could, could actually be inside of a book. His abridgment that he makes. And that's the reason why Mosiah, Alma Helaman, not only is the narrative beautiful, I mean, you start reading Mosiah, it's just like you're reading a novel almost, right? You are reading a story which is being told expertly by the, by the, the third person omniscient narrator, which is Mormon. And. But he's not just doing it third person. He's interjecting first person quotes all the time. And then Helaman said, well, how do you know what Helaman said? Well, I'm assuming that that's what's on those larger plates. And Mormon, like any good historian, is putting the words of the people he's talking about onto the page so that you have greater access to them. Right. If I say that Joseph Smith knew that it would take the course of his life in order to become a better person. Yeah, that might be a fine statement. If I then quote Joseph Smith and he Says, I am like a great rough stone rolling down a hill. And there's more power to it because you've now, you now personalize what that is. I can say something like, you know, Dwight D. Eisenhower thought that landing on June 6 was the right time because of X and Y. If I follow that up with a quote from Eisenhower's journal where he says that it's going to have more power. And so Mormon does this all throughout. I mean, you get quotes and sermons that are in first person all over the place in Mosiah and Alma Helman 35. But it's just well crafted. And so our assumption is that that's exactly the same thing that he did with the Book of Lehi, that he had taken from those large plates and whatever other source he may have used to create this narrative. And it's that narrative, that 116 pages, which is, I mean, that is a massive amount when you think about that. The Book of Mormon ends up being roughly 600 pages. You're talking roughly what, 20% of what would have been in the book is gone because someone steals the pages from Martin Harris. So I've digressed a great deal, but I want to go back to God preparing so many years in the future. So Nephi is already keeping this massive history. He's already writing everything down, the history of his people, talking about everything, and then explains that he made this other set of plates. Nevertheless, I received a commandment of the Lord, this is verse three, that I should make these plates. And whenever he says these plates, because this is on the small plates, he's talking about the plates that are now in the Book of Mormon today. I received a commandment of the Lord that I should make these place for a special purpose, that there should be an account engraven of the ministry of my people. So he makes a distinction there. This is going to be more about the religious aspect of it. And you already know when you read first and second Nephi, boy, there are some incredible sermons that are given. I don't know who the, you know, fifth king of the Lamanites was, but boy Nephi saying that his, his, he waters his pillow with his tears at night. I mean, there are some powerful preaching that's going on. And so you can already see that with the makeup of first and second Nephi, that it is focused on the spiritual aspects of things. Verse 4 Upon the other plates. So he's now talking about the large plates should be engraven, an account of the reign of the kings and the wars and Contentions of my people. Wherefore, these plates are for the more part of the ministry, and the other plates are for the more part of the reign of the kings and the wars and contentions of my people. This means that what Mormon had been working with when he created the Book of Lehi was a book that, like the others, was more focused on the wars, the contentions, the kings. Think about the Book of Alma just for a second. What does it seem to be more focused on? I mean, there's some preaching in there, but it's not more focused on the preaching. I mean, there's a reason why you love it when you're a teenage boy reading. You're like, all right, let's. Let's tank him. Let's go kill another Lamanite general. Let's do this. You know, let's get down to brass tacks. You know, it is. It's this. This entirety of the warfare that's going on, they spend their time on. Obviously, there's religious things as well, but you can almost see that. So if you're. If you're Nephi, you've already etched out all kinds of stuff on these plates. It has been a gigantic labor, and then all of a sudden, you receive a commandment from God. Hey, you know how you've already recorded everything on your plates? I need you to make a completely separate set of plates. But I already have these plates. I know. Make another set. I mean, I already got these plates. Look, Nephi doesn't say that. He murmured. I want to murmur for Nephi. Like, you got to be kidding me. You know how hard it is to do this in the first place? You want me to do it again? And then verse five, just the insight you get into who Nephi is. Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to make these plates for a wise purpose in him. Which purpose I know not. We talk about God knowing everything from the beginning. 600 years before Christ. I mean, 20, what, 400 years before Joseph Smith. God instructed his prophet Nephi to make this separate set of plates. And one of the reasons why I love this scripture is he does not tell Nephi why. You would think that the prophet that God has on earth should always get an explanation from God about why he's supposed to do something. Hey, I need you to do this. Nephi does get explanations about other things. Why they need to go and get the. The brass plates, why they need to build a ship. God doesn't give him an explanation here. He commanded me to make these plates for A wise purpose in him, which purpose I know not. Then he says, wherefore the Lord have commanded me to make these plates for a wise purpose, which purpose I know not. But the Lord knoweth all things from the beginning, wherefore he prepareth the way to accomplish all his works among the children of men. Nephi attaches to this commandment that God knows some reason why, Because God knows everything. So he knows why I had to do this. For, behold, he hath all power under the fulfilling of all his words. And thus it is. Amen. And so Nephi begins to now keep two separate records. Now those two separate records are going to be handed on down and handed on down and handed on down. When you get to. When you get to Omni, these small plates. Well, you know, maybe because he was dragging his feet a little bit. Nephi didn't make a whole lot of. A whole lot of new pages for these small plates. These people in Omni keep talking about how there's almost no room left on the plates, and they. Frankly, they write almost like there's no room left on the plates, right? These in Omnites, just a quick, hey, how's it going? And that's it, right? I mean, you have these little teeny insertions from people. Now, I, Chemish, write the few things that I write in the same book with my brother. For, behold, I saw the last which he wrote, and he wrote it with his own hand, and he wrote it in the day that he delivered them unto me. And after this manner, we keep the records. For it is according to the commandments of our fathers. And I make an end. So Chemish's entire part of the small plates is to say, I watched my brother write what he wrote, and then he handed it to me.

Dr. Richard Leduc (41:38)

And there. So I. I feel like you're really giving Amaron and Chemish and Abinadom just really, you know, you're like, you know what? Hey, how about that? Wait, you didn't have a lot of room. It's not that you were lazy.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (41:52)

They keep saying they have no room, but that.

Dr. Richard Leduc (41:55)

That sounds like something I would say.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (41:58)

Now, why didn't you write in your journal? It was full.

Dr. Richard Leduc (42:01)

I did.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (42:01)

Yeah.

Dr. Richard Leduc (42:02)

Well, why don't you go get another journal? Well, but this one's full. Garrett.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (42:05)

Yeah, it's true. I don't know why they're not trying to, like, molten more or whatever, but when you get to Abinadom, he says, I'm the son of Chemish. Behold, it came to pass that I Saw much war and contention between my people, the Nephites and the Lamanites. And I, with my own sword, have taken the lives of many of the Lamanites in defense of my brethren. So apparently, Abinadom is. He's quite a fighter. And behold, the record of this people is engraven upon the plates which is had by the kings. So that larger set that Nephi made, he was, remember, the first king of the Nephites. That larger set gets passed on from king to king to king, right? According to the generations. And I know of no revelation save that which has been written, neither prophecy wherefore that which is sufficient is written, and I make an end. So, Ben, Adam, look, I've killed a lot of people, and that's it. I've got. He did.

Dr. Richard Leduc (43:10)

He did send that one in there. Yeah, he got that one in there. Guys, I killed so many people, I.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (43:15)

Can'T write everything I've done, but there's a few people who wish I hadn't done it. Know what I'm saying? Now, obviously, he was doing it in defense of his brother. And so I'm not saying it was wrong, but they essentially have no real. Behold, I am a Malachi, the son of Abinadom. Behold, I will speak unto you somewhat concerning Mosiah. So. So Amalekai is now actually going to. He's going to actually explain quite a bit, talking about the people leaving, things like that, and. And talking about the finding of. Of. Of the people that were in. In Zarahemla. So he actually helps us transition into what will become the. The Book of Mosiah. So he. He actually writes a lot. I don't know how much was left on these plates, but, boy, he takes up a huge portion of it. Talking about King Benjamin, all of these other things. Well, when Amaleki finishes. Now, again, he had been quite verbose. I mean, by comparison, in the Book of Omni, what he says in verse 30 is, and I am Malachi had a brother who also went with him, talking about the people who go to try to find the city of Jerhamel. And I have not since known concerning them. And I'm about to lie down in my grave, and these plates are full, and I make an end of my speaking. So, you know, look, he didn't. He. He certainly wrote a lot out there, but he. He says he's. He's. He has filled it up. There is no more that you can write on it. So that means that these small plates, if they're full, are they really being passed down anymore because there's nothing else you can write on them. It makes you wonder if that's what causes Mormon. So Mormon's doing his abridgment, right? If you go to words of Mormon now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I've been making into the hands of my son Moroni. Behold, I've witnessed almost all the destruction of my people, the Nephites. So we just jumped ridiculously far forward. You know, you get to the, you get to the end of, of Omni and you are still many years before the, the coming of Christ. I mean it covers a long time period because it's, you know, quickly hand the plates, hand the plates, but ends off still 130 years before Jesus and suddenly you flash forward to words of Mormon and you are 300, you know, plus years, nearly 400 years beyond the coming of Jesus and the entire destruction. That's what Mormon lets you know, that he's witnessed almost the entire destruction of his people and he's about to give this record to his son. He explains all about the coming of Christ in verse 2. And then in verse 3 he says, and now I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written. For I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi down to the reign of this King Benjamin of whom Amaleki spake. And I searched the records which had been delivered into my hands and I found these plates which contained this small account of the prophets from Jacob down to the reign of this King Benjamin and also many of the words of Nephi. So if you think about it, what likely happened, I have a colleague who's far more erudite in explaining this than I am, which is, shouldn't come as any surprise, literally anyone's more erudite in explaining this than I am. But likely what has happened is somewhere as he is recording his abridgment, these other set of plates get mentioned by the larger set of plates. Maybe Nephi mentioned them. I mean, he mentioned the fact that he had two sets of plates in the small plates. Maybe he mentioned he had two sets of plates in the large ones. Whatever the case, for some reason after Mormon has already finished his, I mean he has already abridged it, he's already gone through and rewritten what he's going to write. When he gets done, he, he is spurred on to search among all the records that he had delivered into his hands. And one of the worst things that ever happened to any historian ever is that after they've already written their book, someone finds another amazing source that directly relates to what they wrote about. It's tough. It's tough because, well, I already wrote it. What do you want me to do now? I've used this example before. In our book that Mike McKay and I wrote, From Darkness and Delight, the translation and publication of the Book of Mormon, there is an image of Charles Anthon that is put into that book. That's an image that has been used over and over and over and over again by everyone. Everyone who's ever written on it. Why? Because the Library of Congress has it listed as an image of Charles Anthon. Well, a researcher found that it's actually not Charles Anthon. It's. It's certain. The Library of Congress says that it is. They're just wrong. It's actually an image of his brother. And so, you know, that was one of those things. Well, the book's already in production, like. Well, we would be great. I mean, things that would have been once again, nice to know yesterday, right? I mean. Oh, well, I guess we wouldn't have included a picture and labeled it the wrong person if the Library of Congress hadn't got it wrong in the first place. Here, Mormon has painstakingly, I don't know how many years it's taken him, written out the entirety of his abridgment of. Of Lehi and Nephi and all down the line. And he. He gets done, and. And because of something he's read, my guess, it causes him to search the records, and he finds these small plates that no one's written on since 400 years earlier, when Amaleki was like, we're out of room. It's over. And Mormon reads them. And these things which are upon these plates, pleasing me because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ and my Father's knowing that many of them have been fulfilled. Yea, I also know that as many things have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass. Wherefore I choose these things to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi. And I cannot write the hundredth part of these things. But behold, I shall take these plates which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record. For they are choice unto me, and I know there will be choice unto my brethren. Imagine this. You're Mormon, and you have lived through just the utter desolation of your people. How incredible must it be to find these plates that talk about the coming of Jesus in prophecy, where I'm sure there's something in there, in the larger plates that talked about it. But here you have these incredible prophecies and Mormon, because he lives in the future, he knows that they've all been fulfilled to Mormon. What a faith promoting, not that Mormon needs any more faith, but what a faith promoting thing it is. To be like exactly the way that the prophet said it was going to happen is exactly what happened. I know because I am the one who experienced it. And these prophets I know this is an old record, they were all right. So it's personally very powerful for him. Still, he's got tons of records. Why is he taking this completely separate set and I don't know, opening up his Trapper Keeper binder of, of, of what the plates are and sticking in these small plates, because that's the phraseology that he's using, that I shall take these plates and put them with the remainder of my record, meaning he's not going to abridge them at all. He's just found something that greatly expands upon the history he's already written and he's just gonna, he's just gonna open the tabs and put them in there. And then he explains something very similar to what Nephi said hundreds of years earlier when Nephi created them in the first place. Verse 7. And I do this for a wise purpose, for it whispereth me according to the workings, thus it whispereth me according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now I do not know all things, but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come, wherefore he worketh in me according to his will. Now that sounds pretty similar to what Nephi said when he made them, right? Well, guess who's just read Nephi's record. The same person who's writing that verse. Mormon is feeling the same call to include these plates as Nephi felt to make them. And both of them say, I'm doing this because God tells me to do it. I don't know why I'm being told to do it. I do not know all things, but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come, wherefore he worketh in me according to his will. So the interesting part about this is that there are multiple moving parts through multiple prophets. In some cases thousands of years before Joseph Smith ever, ever walked into a grove of trees. It's one of the more powerful and fascinating internal evidences of the Book of Mormon. It's the reason why those first books that you read are all written in first person. And it's Nephi and Jacob and everybody talking. You know, I went and said this, and I did this and then I did that. And when you get to Mosiah, it becomes, and then Mosiah did this, and then Ammon chopped some people's arms off, and then human led the armies. You are getting a third person account because that's how Mormon was writing his entire book. Mormon didn't know. I'm sure he would have been probably just as outraged as Emma and Joseph were that Martin Harris isn't just losing their work. He's really losing Mormon's work. Mormon's the one who spent all this time abridging that record, and that's the record that Martin Harris loses. So you're thinking, well, why are we spending so much time on the Book of Mormon? Well, first of all, you should never complain about the fact that we're spending time on the Book of Mormon. That's ridiculous. Why would anyone say, I don't know. I don't think we should read so many verses in the Book of Mormon. I've got a real problem with it, Garrett.

Dr. Richard Leduc (56:22)

I'm so upset that so many of the people listening right now are asking, why are we talking about the Book of Mormon? I'm so angry at them.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (56:29)

I'm sure there actually are some people because they're like, look, I listen to this so I can sound good in Sunday School. And I want you to cut to it. I can't go off on some kind of plate flight of fancy.

Dr. Richard Leduc (56:39)

First of all, if they're listening to this to sound good in Sunday School, may I recommend a different podcast?

Dr. Garrett Dirkmont (56:44)

Yeah, there's other podcasts like Follow him that are good and you could use those, and no doubt you already are. But the reason why is for Doctrine and Covenant Section 10 to be as miraculous to you as it is, you need to understand how God has been working things from the beginning. Doctrine Covenant Section three tells Joseph, it's not my ways, my works that are frustrated. The designs of God don't get frustrated by men. It's the designs of men that get frustrated. Here in doctrine covenant section 10, the Lord is going to explain what exactly happened to those pages that were stolen. Now, Joseph and. And clearly Martin had spent a considerable amount of time trying to find the pages to get them back. What happens to them? What happened to the 116 pages is one of the great questions of Latter Day Saint history that we don't actually have an answer for. It's part of the reason why every other week, someone shows up at the church history library like, I have the 116 pages, because they're trying to sell it. Because that'd be worth millions and millions of dollars. In fact, the great forgery that Mark Hoffman was working on before he blew himself up was to forge part of the lost 116 pages so that he could claim that, you know, that it would be the most valuable thing ever. Right. If we were to have that. And so it's important that we. We focus on just exactly what happened and how God had prepared for this, because God knows all things. So doctrine section 10 opens. Now, behold, I say unto you that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them. Now, we probably need to pause for a moment there, because sometimes people will look at section 10 and say, well, why do historians say that the term Urim and Thummim isn't used to describe the seer stones that Joseph found with the plates until later? And they'll point to this and say, look, this is, you know, at Latest. It's a May 1829 revelation. And clearly it's using the term Urim and Thummim. But you have to remember that we don't have this manuscript page of the Doctrine and Covenants. The earliest version that we have is actually the one that's published in the Book of commandments in 1833. And when you read that same verse, although their verses are much larger, so it's actually all of verse one. But if you were to read that again in the Book of Commandments, the first time the Revelation was published in a manuscript in a Book of Revelations, the book of commandments, 1833. Now, behold, I say unto you that because you've delivered up so many writings which you had power to translate into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them. So you can see that originally part of the text did not include by the means of the Urim and Thummim, that that is a later. It's a later emendation to the text that we can't see that because we don't have the earliest manuscript copy. But it's something that Joseph, apparently, when he makes the revisions preparing these revelations for the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, he wants to make it clear that the translation was done through these stones. And so he uses that term Urim and Thummim, but apparently isn't part of the Revelation originally. Now, we're out of time here, so we're probably going to have to make this a part one, but thank you so much for joining us. And if you stay tuned, we may or may not finish doctrine covenant section 10. And you're saying, well, you only did one verse, I know.

Narrator (61:32)

Thank you for listening to Search these Commandments, a Standard of Truth podcast production of the Revelations found in the Doctrine and Covenants, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com.