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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor.
- [00:29]
B
Foreign. Hi.
- [00:38]
A
Welcome to, I think, a bonus episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc. And we're dropping this bonus because Richard felt like we had to. Why don't you explain yourself, Richard?
- [00:57]
B
Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back to this bonus episode of season so here's the fear. We really didn't want to seem like we were phoning it in and making this another episode. Season 6 re released.
- [01:09]
A
The first fear is that our listeners might eventually come to the conclusion that we are phoning it in.
- [01:19]
B
That's my fear. Well, so essentially what it is is that you, as, as this is being released, you are just coming back actually, you're, I think, actually in Israel right now. Right? This is coming out on the 1st of January.
- [01:33]
A
I'm probably coming down with Messiah syndrome right now.
- [01:38]
B
It's a great Simpsons episode.
- [01:40]
A
I guess I'm the new Messiah.
- [01:42]
B
It's a great Simpsons episode. Everyone that goes to Jerusalem gets the Messiah complex. But so essentially we, we did a re release of a premium episode that was the Book of Moses. And then as I was listening to it, we were just going to cut out the. Because it was, it was the book of Moses in section 24 of the doctrine and Covenants. But as I was listening to it, I was like, oh, no, this is a really, this is a good episode. And to make it more widely available to everybody, we usually do that in May or June. We do a couple re releases of premium stuff so that people can get a taste of it. And so but you're talking about the Book of Moses. And the problem is that the end, It's a part two of section 24 of the doctrine and Covenants. And so if we just end it, then, you know, I don't know, it leaves people on a. I thought we.
- [02:35]
A
Would just cut out section 24, but Richard's like, well, I kind of like it, which is probably not true because I don't think Richard likes anything that we do. But at least this is what he said. And then he said, you know what, let's record an intro to it and we'll drop the second half of it so that people aren't dangling in the wind over, because in his mind, there's a bunch of highly desperate people listening who, if they don't get a conclusion to Section 24, heads are going to roll.
- [03:03]
B
I mean, so, so here's, here's the real problem. The real problem is, is that we. We Talk about Section 24 in multiple parts of that episode at the beginning. And so it's difficult to really extract it and have continuity. And so we have to keep it all together so that it makes sense. But then there's a cliffhanger, as much of a cliffhanger as any episode on this podcast could possibly be. And, and so, you know, this is a bonus.
- [03:31]
A
We should have just re recorded our commentary on Moses. I feel like now we're doing far more work than it would have been to just have a commentary on Moses to begin with. That's totally true.
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B
It's. It's very true. But Happy New Year, Garrett. I hope that you're. Have safe, good time in Israel and look forward to diving into the Book of Moses when, when you come home.
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A
I just can't wait for Texas Tech to win the national championship.
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B
I really desperately. I desperately want.
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A
It'll be hard to beat Oregon, though. I, I guess the same Oregon defense shows up that showed up against James.
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B
Madison in the second half, not so much. James Madison ended up with almost 500 yards.
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A
That's what I mean. That's. We need the defense show up. Yeah.
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B
Yeah, I see. Or the same defense that showed up against Indiana.
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A
Yeah, we need that. Texas Tech needs to do what they did to byu, to Oregon.
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B
There. There will be great moral victories in the afterlife if Texas Tech wins the national championship. And we're like, we told you they were this good.
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A
But it's literally what Kawani Sataki said. He said that's the best team in the country and everyone's going to find out that they are.
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B
I hope so, man. I hope so. I desperately hope so.
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A
But it'd be interesting. Well, we. We hope that this is not too much of a. Of, you know, taking away from your festive New Year's activities, but hopefully this is at least appreciated. You know, we throw a couple. You know, we're already giving you the podcast for free, so we figured, why don't we create something bonus so you're actually getting something out of it. And that's what this is. Here's a bonus to a. The podcast. And, and hopefully it is helpful for the beginning of the study of, Of Moses. And also concluding the discussion of Section 24.
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B
Hi.
- [05:29]
A
Welcome to another episode of Search these Commandments, a Standard of Truth podcast production. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.
- [05:39]
B
Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. Excited to finish up doctrine covenants, section 24. I know that the context for this took an entire episode. I think the actual content for this will be a couple of minutes, I believe.
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A
Yeah, I mean, at least that's the theory. I believe we thought we were going to do all of 24 in about 10 minutes last time.
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B
Yes, that's true.
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A
So I. I think one of the things we have to. We have to come to terms with is. I'm not very good at this. I know that our listeners have already tried to come to terms with this, but, you know, this isn't a Christie's Corner, Richard.
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B
No, no, no.
- [06:23]
A
This is a big time depth. This is plumbing the depths. This is trying to find anything that will make anyone sound smart in Sunday school. Not. Not just. Not just one comment. We're going for three comments.
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B
Right. In 2029.
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A
In 2020. But look, do you want to have those comments or not?
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B
Yes. That's.
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A
You got to ask yourself, how important is it that I become bishop or Relief Society president? And I know that the way that we decide who becomes bishop or Relief Society president is by who makes the most pious comments in Sunday school.
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B
That's always. I've always thought it that way. Yes.
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A
I mean, the reason why you've been in so many bishoprics is that every time you go in there, that arm is shooting up in the air. I mean, the teacher can't even, like, high class. Who'd be willing to. And you don't even. You just start praying. You don't even. You don't even get called on to pray. You start praying and then your prayer is like a ramy amptum prayer.
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B
It is. It is. It's about how. How good we are and how much better we are than other people. It's pretty good. It's a pretty good prayer.
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A
It's the same prayer.
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B
I just read it straight from Alma.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I'm so grateful that I know these answers and no one else in here does. I'm grateful that because I am a subscriber to the Standard Truth Premium Content that I'm going to make all around me look like fools while I glut myself on the glory of mankind.
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B
I think that's it. Yeah. Yeah. You've sat in enough this Sunday, lessons that you've taught accidentally.
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A
Yeah, like the one last week.
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B
That's right.
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A
So remember, you know, just briefly back to. I mean, again, if you haven't listened to the previous episode, stop what you're doing, delete the podcast. Also stop what you're doing and go back and listen to part one. Because we set all of the context for all of the raging difficulties that are going on, especially surrounding the church in Colesville in the immediate aftermath of the organization of the church and their. Their first church conference that they hold. And so this is July. It's just after that. And the Lord is delivering this in harmony. Okay, so you got to think about this. It's July, 1830. Joseph Smith is still living in Harmony, even though he spent a considerable amount of time up in Fayette. He still owns a farm. Well, owns. I mean, he still has debt on a farm that he's not farming very well, and a house that Emma still theoretically lives in in Harmony. That's still where Joseph's, you know, avocation as a farmer is. Is down in Harmony. Now, they've been in Fayette. So a lot of times we think of Joseph having moved to Fayette permanently because he goes up there to finish the translation of the Book of Mormon, and it's where they organize the church, and there's all kinds of stuff going on in f. But Joseph actually still lives. He still owns a house and farm down in Harmony. And so this revelation actually takes place in harmony when Joseph goes back down to Harmony. Now it's July, so why is he down there? Well, again, Joseph is a farmer, and so he's going back down to tend what crops he has on that. That acreage that he owns. The revelation opens up with, behold, thou was called and chosen to write the Book of Mormon and to my ministry, and I have lifted thee up out of thine afflictions, and I have counseled thee that thou has been delivered from all thine enemies, and that thou hast been delivered from the powers of Satan and from darkness. So the very first part of what the Lord is talking about is all of the afflictions that Joseph has suffered. And that's been a lot. But you get the sense that Joseph was unprepared for just how much resistance there was, especially coming from the Colesville area. That, I mean, I don't know. I doubt Joseph was everything. Like, it's gonna be smooth sailing for Joseph now. I mean, sure, I'm still telling people I saw an angel and everything, but, like, from here on out, Everything's good. I don't know, I don't know that he had a California surfer accent when he was doing that. But you know what? I think maybe, I think for a brief time he had a California surfer accent that made him think things are just cool. You know, I always, I always thought.
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B
That Flasis Hurlbut would have that kind of tubular accent as he's is, he's the extreme anti Mormon. He's doing it.
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A
Yeah, because he's doing that. He's doing the 360s and the 70s.
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B
Yeah, he's, he's, he's trying to get signed affidavits, but he's too busy doing kick flips.
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A
Yeah. He's like, look at this wicked Ollie I'm about to do. And also Judas miss an adulterer. And then. Yeah, yeah. I mean I, I think that that would, you know, him being kind of a sun baked stoner on the beach actually. Kind of. I think that's how I prefer to think of Falasis Hurlbut from now on. Yeah, but we aren't to Flasa's Hurlbut yet. That will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 17 episodes and not even on this podcast.
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B
But.
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A
So he's dealing with this increased persecution and the Lord tells him, magnify thine office after thou has sowed thy fields and secured them, go speedily unto the churches in Coldwell. So here's an instance in which the revelation actually gives us information that we don't have from the historical record. We don't have a Joseph Smith journal from July of 1830, and we don't have very many records of any kind. We have some reminiscences, but the reminiscences are, you know, people like Joseph Knight looking back four or five years later, or Newell Knight looking back 30 years later. And so because of that, there's not very much precision in what's going on at the time. Because, you know, if I look back on what my life as a 16 year old was like, I can tell you about some memorable events. I can even remember some basketball and football games I played in. But what I can't do is say, oh yes, on September 4th. Yeah, that, that was the day I was tardy to my homeroom class. I remember that. You know, I mean, like I, I. Unless there's some kind of gigantic amazing thing attached to it or some kind of terrible catastrophe attached to it, most of the mundaness of the past is not recorded when we, when we write our, our histories I mean, if you, Richard, were to sit down and write your autobiography right now, I'm not sure what you'd title it. Probably like implied Referrals. The Roller Coaster of Excitement by Richard. Is that.
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B
Yeah, that's. That's kind of the. I would probably go with more of a 19th century title, though, or one.
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A
That'S like 90 words long.
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B
Yeah, it's 90 words long. And in fact, the entire autobiography is really just the title.
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A
Just the title. Yeah, that would sound about right.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I mean, if you were to write an autobiography right now, though, and you tried to be precise, including everything from your past, where you had very, very, very few sources. I'm not saying you'd get everything wrong. What I'm saying is your biography that you're writing of yourself, even though it's yourself writing it, would tend to focus on points of conflict and inflection. Of course, you don't talk about, hey, on Friday I went out to. To my car and I got in it, and it started when I drove to work, and I drove home. On Monday, I did the same thing. Tuesday, I did the same thing. You know what I mean? What you would end up doing is you would say, you know, I started this job in January, and, you know, things were working great. February, you know, through July. And then in August, you know, I got an offer to go work somewhere else. But you wouldn't, unless there was conflict or a purpose, include some of the more mundane. Well, as historians, if this isn't evidence already, we are concerned with things that no one cares about. And so because of that, things like the fact that Joseph was in harmony to sow his fields, because that's what the Lord is telling him, after you've sowed your fields and secured them, go speedily to the church, which is in Colesville, Fayette, Manchester. So this revelation actually tells us why he's down there in July. Why is he down there? Well, he's got to get some things planted. Now, as a farmer. Well, someone who worked on farms, I know it's different out in the east, where they have this crazy liquid stuff.
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B
Called water rain, right?
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A
Yeah. I feel like they can, like, plant whenever they want. You know what I mean? Like, they're bemoaning the fact that they've only gotten, like, 19 cuttings of hay. I don't know. I feel like in the east, when they say they're having a drought, what they mean is, it hasn't rained this week. And in some places, what they mean is it's not currently raining. Right now it's not raining. What is going on? Look at the climate change. And so it's hard for me to envision a farmer not planting their crops until July. I. I don't know what they're doing, but maybe, you know, and some things have a relatively short growing season. We know that Joseph was growing at one point buckwheat, which is primarily silage for animals. Right. And it doesn't have a very long growing season. And it's. And it. One of the best things about buckwheat is it requires very little upkeep. So it's the kind of thing that you can plant and then go away for three months at a church conference and try to stop Hiram Page from receiving false revelations on a seer stone and then come back.
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B
So buckwheat. Buckwheat is the one that you want to grow for that.
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A
Yeah, yeah. So if, if you're thinking, do I grow corn? Do I grow potatoes? Do I grow buckwheat? And you know that you're about to have the second elder of your church condemn you for introducing a false doctrine in the church, even though it's a revelation that he said that he approved of at the recent church conference. And you're going to have to go up to Fayette to try to persuade him and the entire Whitmer family that in fact the revelation really is from God. Even though he's sending you a letter saying, I. I command you in the name of God to erase those words from the revelation. If you're anticipating that, you're going to want to go with buckwheat.
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B
Yeah, got it.
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A
Yeah. I feel like that's. That's the safe bet. Not corn. Oh, my goodness, corn. Yet you look at corn wrong, you walk outside and glance to the left askance at corn, and corn's not happy with the way you looked at it. And it's dead. It just dies. There's all kinds of. All kinds of bugs in it and everything anyway. So Joseph is actually in harmony because of a temporal concern. He still has loads of debt that he has not yet adjudicated. He still owes his father in law money on his farm. We don't know all of the other debts that he has, but eventually he's going to have to essentially, with a local merchant, take on a promissory note in order to kind of consolidate his debts so that he eventually can leave. So I think his lack of financing is very much on his mind and in one very, very, very small way. Very small. Please don't misunderstand me, I can relate a little teeny bit to this in the sense that Joseph is spending dozens, possibly up to the neighborhood of 100 hours a week at times on the preaching of the gospel. You know, you're not. You're not hoeing a whole lot of furrows while you're running for your life from Colesville mobs. You aren't getting a whole lot of the crop in while you're holding a church conference for a week in Fayette. And Joseph is constantly being pulled away from. From what could provide him some relief from his debts work, either working on his farm or as we can tell from early Joseph Smith documents, Joseph will also work on. On other people's farms. I mean, he will. He will go cut wood. He will go harvest grain for people. He will do things to try to increase his own financial capabilities.
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B
By the way, Garrett, so let's say that the church was to be established today, not in 1830. And let's say that where the Lord would have Moroni go would be based on buckwheat production. Wow. What state do you think the Lord would have had Moroni bury the plates?
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A
Well, I feel like it's kind of a trick question because I want to say Kansas, but also there's no hill there to put the plates in.
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B
This is true. So it looks like it would likely go to North Dakota.
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A
And again, why is it growing in North Dakota? Perfect. Perfect. North Dakota is actually the perfect example of buckwheat production. Why? Because North Dakota. I don't know if anyone listening. We don't have any listeners there. Right. Because.
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B
Oh, yeah, no, we do, actually. We actually have quite a few. Just thousands, well, hundreds. And I mean, North Dakota. I mean, it's. I mean. So for our North Dakota listeners, we love you. Your state capital looks like something out of North Korea, like some just cement building in Bismarck. But it's a lovely place. I've been to a Buffalo Wild Wings in Bismarck. It was. It was a wonderful time.
- [21:47]
A
Oh, wonderful. But North Dakota is a perfect example of why. Why would you grow buckwheat there? You have fertile soil. You have essentially. I mean, you're going to have to irrigate, most likely. You're going to have uneven precipitation, let me put it that way. Right. And you don't have a very long growing season because it's probably frosting in Bismarck right now.
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B
Right now.
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A
Right now in Bismarck, it just frosted. And it's the middle of. It's the middle of July, and they just recorded Permafrost. No, I mean, that's obviously being facetious. I'm from Idaho, so I'm well aware of what a short growing season's like. But North Dakota has a fairly short growing season. So buckwheat is not as. Water is intensive. It's not as dependent on whether or not sun is, is always on it or whether or not it's getting as much water. It's not as fickle, and it can be grown very quickly and is not, you know, because it has such a short growing season. So thank you for that. I did not know that North Dakota was the. Well, all of our buckwheat farmers to email in.
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B
Well, and so not to go down a further rabbit hole, but the top five. Number five, United States, number four, Kazakhstan, number three, Ukraine, number two, China. And the number one country. Garrett, what would you guess the number.
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A
One buckwheat producer in the world, Russia.
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B
Yeah, Mother Russia, with nearly 120% more buckwheat production than China. So just.
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A
Well, and again, why? Because all of the things I mentioned are true in many places of Russia where you have a very short growing season and in, you know, you don't have a predictable water source.
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B
Yeah, there you go. So this is, this has been more fun with buckwheat knowledge than I anticipated when we started this, this episode.
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A
I know for our listeners it hasn't been. I know that they don't feel the same way about buckwheat that you do.
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B
I mean, it is a dramatic increase in production. It's, it's, it's 12. No, it's 14 times more production in Russia of buckwheat, the United States. This, this, this might not have been the truth. When Joseph Smith was a, was a young man. You know what? I'm. We're gonna get the crack research, Jap to the bottom.
- [24:09]
A
I need you to find production. Stalinization and the collect farms had something to do with the buckwheat production. But you know what? I wanna, I want you to give us a full report and then let us know what the tariffs are on buckwheat production.
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B
I'm on it.
- [24:27]
A
Okay, so one of the things that Joseph was told in verse three is about that he needs to speedily go to the church that's in Colesville, Fayette and Manchester. So I don't know if Joseph was thinking, do I get some time to just work off some of my debts? Because he's, he's, he is so stretched thin and he already didn't have any money. That now debts are really starting to pile up on him. Because unlike every other man who can go chop wood every day and make 75 cents a day doing it, Joseph can't. Because Joseph is every day in Fayette or Palmyra or Colesville or running from a mob or getting arrested for casting an evil spirit out of somebody. And so that makes it much more difficult for him to actually make his ends meet. And he's told that. He's told that. That if the. The churches in those places will support Joseph, I will bless them both spiritually and temporally. He goes on in verse 6, the Lord goes on to say, it shall be given thee in the very moment what thou shalt speak and write. And they shall hear it. And I will send unto them a cursing, or I will send unto them a cursing instead of a blessing. For thou shalt devote all thy service in Zion, and in this thou shalt have strength. Now, I do not know that that is the verse that Joseph wanted to receive from the Lord. The tenor of this revelation seems to suggest that Joseph is asking, hey, I've already done everything right? Can I, like, I don't know, get some food for my family? The church is organized. There's other members of it, and the Lord tells them, you're going to devote all thy service to Zion. That is, I am sure that. I mean, we don't have any apostles who listen to us or even people that will eventually become apostles or even people who eventually become stake presidents or bishops. You know what? I don't even think anyone listens. We do have missionaries, and some of them were MTC district leaders, though.
- [26:59]
B
Well, so I think it's one of the questions. It's like a. It's a disqualifying question. Have you ever.
- [27:03]
A
So when you get interviewed, when they're like, hey, we'd like to call you as a bishop, is there anything we didn't know about? And they say, yeah, I'm a premium content subscriber to the Standard Drew podcast, and it's just a tip of the cap and you're on your way.
- [27:15]
B
Well, it's much like the communist trials. The McCarthy hearings is more of the feel of it.
- [27:22]
A
You know, that makes. That makes much more sense. So, yeah, maybe we don't have anyone but former or aspiring or current. You know what? Because of the missionaries that are listening, we might have current MTC district leaders that are listening right now.
- [27:43]
B
Well, they lied during their interview then. To be. To get that title, obviously.
- [27:46]
A
Well, and. But they still can hold on to those Mail, keys.
- [27:50]
B
That is true, by the way, Garrett. France gave Russia a run for their money in the 19th century in Buckwheat production.
- [27:57]
A
That makes sense. That makes sense. And. And. But then Russia quickly overtook them.
- [28:01]
B
Yes, that. That's my understanding.
- [28:03]
A
Which just proves Marxism is superior to capitalism anyway. Although France at the time was a. A absolutist monarchy, I guess, in the 19th century, for. For a while it's a republic before it goes back to being a monarchy.
- [28:18]
B
Yeah, for those. For those six minutes, they actually got overtaken by Russia in buckwheat production.
- [28:25]
A
I see. I see. When. When they were murdering everyone in the French Revolution.
- [28:29]
B
Well, so. But it is the perfect crop for. I'm gonna plant it, I'm gonna go murder a bunch of people, and then.
- [28:35]
A
I'm gonna come back, it's ready to harvest. It's really. The more.
- [28:39]
B
The more I think about it, I think I could be a buckwheat farmer.
- [28:43]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, frankly, we should both get some land somewhere. We should grow buckwheat on it. We're gonna need some of our North Dakota listeners who farm buckwheat to come. To Come let us know what that is.
- [28:59]
B
Absolutely. That's.
- [29:00]
A
Anyway, so I. Obviously, I'm being a little facetious about the MTC district leaders, but for missionaries and general authorities and to a lesser extent, although maybe not a lesser extent, bishops and members of bishoprics, Relief Society presidents, you know, people who are in these callings that are so time consuming, that are just. I mean, hey, I'd love to own a boat, but I have meetings every single weekend or some kind of camp out. You know what I mean?
- [29:41]
B
Yeah, Garrett. I mean, crud. I mean, just the bishop. The bishops that just. I mean, just a couple bishops that are friends of ours. Off the top of my head, like, it's 20, 30 hours in a light week. I mean, it's. It's just. It's just all. It's all.
- [29:57]
A
It's so much. Yeah, it's so much. And. And I wonder how many of them. And I, of course, won't speak for any of the apostles or general authorities. How many of them have read Doctrine and Covenants, section 24 and read verse 7? And that came as kind of like an answer to their prayers or their ideas as they were thinking, wow, this is a lot. And, yeah, it's actually exactly what Joseph was told. You are to devote all of your service to Zymon, and that's where you'll have your strength. I mean, it calls to mind Jesus saying You know, whosoever shall save his life shall lose it. But whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and for the gospel shall find it. And that's what's going on with, with Joseph here. He is at this kind of inflection point. And. And I should say culturally. Joseph's responsibility, culturally, as a man in the 19th century, is to provide for his family. If you can't do that, it doesn't matter what else you're doing. If you can't grow enough buckwheat on your property to pay your debts so that your wife doesn't have to work outside of the home so that when you have kids, I mean, he has had a child that's already passed away so that your kids don't have to work off of the farm. If you can't do that, you are considered a failure in society. I mean, it's very hard for us to replicate culturally just how much negativity there was surrounding people who were not temporally successful in the 19th century. If you don't have the ability to be temporarily successful, well, then you are looked down on as a dreg of humanity.
- [32:08]
B
So it is interesting, right? Like the idea of the law of consecration that's coming. I don't know what year we'll get to that. Probably 2032 or whatever.
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A
I mean, it will come early in 1831 in the history, and we will get to it sometime after Lily's wedding.
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B
But so there's an aspect to this. I mean, is a bishop living the law of consecration? I mean, not in the technical sense, but, boy, are they sure committing everything that they have at least their time. And so when I think of this, when I think of the verse and I think of this section, I think of Joseph Smith's situation. It seems a little bit almost like a precursor or a preparation for the greater knowledge that will be coming, it seems.
- [33:03]
A
Yeah. And, you know, I mean, something I hadn't really. I mean, first of all, that's a very profound thought, that this is a precursor to what God is going to say. Look, you need to consecrate everything, everything you have. And it's not just money and property, it's everything to the cause of Zion. Joseph's already kind of done this. But what's really interesting is outside of the Book of Mormon text, you don't have an engagement in these early documents about whether or not the leaders of the church are going to be paid like they are in essentially all other Christian churches. And so I. I almost even wonder do you think that that's something that Joseph's thinking about?
- [33:53]
B
Interesting.
- [33:54]
A
If I was a Methodist preacher, I would be taking collections and living off of them. If I was a Presbyterian, if I was a Baptist, if I was a Congregationalist, if I was anything, the, the concept of a, of a. Not just lay ministry. I mean, look, we have a lay ministry meaning that, that it's just, you know, you know, Bill, not, not the same Bill McClellan. Not the same Bill. Who's Bill? The adulterer. But, you know, like, you can have a, an astrophysicist as your bishop, and then the next week you can have a plumber as your bishop.
- [34:37]
B
Right.
- [34:38]
A
And, and they can both be amazing leaders in the church. And there isn't this. I mean, in the Lutheran Church, you don't have a pastor who doesn't have at least a Master's of divinity.
- [34:54]
B
Right.
- [34:55]
A
The reason why they're your pastor is they went to school and they were educated on all things Bible and, you know, and hopefully they don't read all of Luther's writings on Jews. And then, and then they, they, they, they. Or at least they don't internalize them. And then they are your pastor for your local congregation, but they've invested this time in education and now this is their profession. This is not Joe. I mean, at least it doesn't appear ever. And, and my guess is that maybe some of this has been internalized from the Book of Mormon, where Alma has his big showdown with Korihor, where, you know, that the leaders don't glut themselves on the labors, they work themselves. This is a common refrain among apostates in the Book of Mormon, that in fact, the leaders of the church are just doing it to get gain. Right. And so maybe Joseph has already internalized that factor. But what's interesting is you don't get any early conversation about that Joseph isn't getting paid a salary for running the church.
- [36:26]
B
So, Garrett, I had that just this thought as you were talking about this, like the way you've kind of described it a little bit is you kind of go through kind of this chronology for Joseph Smith that he sees God in Jesus. And we do a good job of assigning all the things that he knows from that encounter, but there's really only a handful of things that he says he knows after that encounter, and that is that the Methodists aren't right. So.
- [36:55]
A
But Presbyterianism is not both. He does both. Both of them.
- [37:01]
B
Yeah, but, but so when he gets the gold plates you've talked about this before, where his thought in sending things to Charles Anthem was to have him do it. Right.
- [37:14]
A
At least there's some evidence that Joseph has either not translated anything yet or by some sources, he's translated a few of them, but is so uncertain about whether or not his abilities are correct that he is, at least by some accounts, now. And these are bad sources because they're all, you know, they're late and they're looking back and whatever. That he may have been trying to find someone who was a scholar who could translate or at least verify his translation to get them translated is what it says in the record.
- [37:58]
B
But this is the thing that's kind of interesting to me. I mean, he's doing what he's being commanded to do and told to do, but maybe even at this time, he's like, look, I'm going to get this done, and I'm done. I mean, when is it that he is really realizing the weight, the future weight of all that's going to be? And I'm just likely getting some of the timelines wrong here.
- [38:25]
A
I think this is a great question. The sense I get from Doctrine and Covenant Section 24 is that Joseph is feeling a great deal of pressure, and having mobs chase you out of town will do that to you.
- [38:43]
B
That's my understanding. My. My experience, at least there's a reason I no longer live in Idaho.
- [38:48]
A
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, and frankly, we're all going to end up in North Dakota with our Buckwheat farms just because our closest neighbor will be too far away to come after us. My wife's dream, by the way. Oh. If she moved to North Dakota, it.
- [39:03]
B
Would be literally her dream.
- [39:05]
A
I want. Honestly, what we should do right now at this point in the podcast is you should call your wife on the phone and put it on speaker and talk to her about Buckwheat and see what she thinks. She's.
- [39:18]
B
I would. She's at a baby shower, otherwise, I would.
- [39:21]
A
What better baby shower conversation than Buckwheat production in North Dakota?
- [39:27]
B
That's right.
- [39:28]
A
I mean, the last time I was at a baby shower, that's what I talked about.
- [39:34]
B
Did you?
- [39:35]
A
Well, I mean, I don't know that I've been to a whole lot of baby showers. Yeah, I was gonna say, I guarantee you this, the next one I go to, I will talk about Buckwheat.
- [39:45]
B
Okay, so when Riker comes back and he gets married and he's having a baby and you show up, it's like, hey, guys, so what do you think? Like, you're going to be really busy with school. You're going to want to just plant, set it and forget it. Right? Like the Ronco food dehydrator.
- [39:58]
A
It's basically it. Look, you guys need some property and you need some intermittent moisture and a fairly short growing season, and we'll see. We'll see what comes of that. I feel like there are multiple people listening to us right now that are about to go start a buckwheat empire.
- [40:19]
B
I hope so. I really hope so. We can't wait to hear. Now, I don't want you to lose track because you're talking about the pressure Joseph Smith's feeling and me being run out of Idaho.
- [40:27]
A
That's true. I don't know. But the sense you get, because if you drop down to verse 8, the Lord appears to be responding to what Joseph is personally struggling with. Be patient in afflictions, for thou shalt have many. Now, that is what nobody wants to hear from God. Nobody. I mean, he's already suffered so much. He's already just become a hiss and a byword. He's already being treated like garbage by people that used to be his friends.
- [41:14]
B
He's.
- [41:14]
A
He's already facing multiple attempts at violence against him. People have shot at him, people have attacked him, people have broken into his home. People are threatening to mob him and kill him in Colesville and in harmony. And. And I think Joseph is wondering, now that the church is established, now that we're official, now that we had our own conference, things are going to get, like, somewhat better, right? It's kind of like, you know, when you. When you finally finish your last class of graduate school, you think to yourself, things are going to get better now. Right? And then you have to write your dissertation.
- [41:58]
B
Right? That's exactly.
- [41:59]
A
And you're like, oh, my kingdom, my kingdom for just a class that I was working on, right? Like, what was terrible, suddenly it's even worse. So I think that I. I think Joseph is. Is really feeling this. Both financial pressure and just mental pressure from the fact that things are not getting easier, they're actually getting harder. Only the difference is now he's not just worried about Emma and. And his family. There are members of the church, dozens and now hundreds, that are joining the church, and they are all being treated like garbage. It is a much more difficult thing when you go from having no followers to having dozens of them, when those dozens of followers are being treated like garbage. And I think that that's part of what he's talking to the Lord about here Be patient in afflictions, for thou shalt have many, but endure them. For lo, I am with thee even unto the end of thy days. Now that's. The first part of that verse is horrific and the second part is beautiful. But Joseph has told, I mean, the, the great argument against the gospel of wealth, the prosperity theology is Joseph Smith's revelation here. Doctrine covenant, section 24, verse 8. Joseph is literally doing everything that God's told them to do. And he's literally going to devote all of his service design because God has told him to do that and he's going to suffer for it. I mean, why doesn't God just say, you're not going to have any more trials? And I think it's because God is well aware that people have agency and like, you know, not to borrow from DNC135, like most of the Lord's anointed in former times, you know, things are not going to be okay. They are going to be violent and they are going to be constant. And when you think about just how much hatred and persecution Joseph suffers in his life, it must be this overwhelming weight that every single time anyone sees him anywhere and says, hey, are you Joe Smith, that Mormon prophet? The expectation is a flood of insults, a flood of potential violence. And that is a, that is a heavy load to carry your whole life. That's a heavy load to carry if you're financially secure. Joseph is not, and verse nine makes it even worse. And in temporal labors, thou shalt not have strength, for this is not thy calling. Man, that's tough. You talk about a bad verse and a patriarchal blessing, you know, I mean, what if the patriarch said, you're gonna really struggle, you're never gonna actually make any money, gonna be living in a trailer and you're gonna get the trailer repossessed, but you're also the tribe of Judah. I mean, I don't, I mean, I don't wanna. I mean, can you imagine having the Lord tell him that clearly financial considerations are absolutely on his mind. That is why he went back to Harmony. I've got to get my crop sown. I've got all these debts I've got to pay, and we're trying to find the city of Zion and I've got this. And God, I need some help. And God tells him, hey, Joseph, you're never going to be rich. Can you imagine if you were to receive personal revelation to that regard?
- [46:04]
B
Yeah.
- [46:04]
A
Just so you know, all of your financial ventures are, they're going to fail. You will never be financially okay. And you know what? Joseph never was. Now I know this isn't one of these things that we like to highlight as Joseph Smith's prophetic abilities, but I'll tell you what, this July 1830 revelation is 100% accurate between him being pulled as the prophet and leader of the church to never actually devote the time he needs to in order to make money to people borrowing from him without any intention of ever paying back, or at least never paying him back, even if they intended to, to the constant rooting up and being driven from where they stay so that they can't develop and build wealth. Anyway, Joseph is going to leave this life heavily in debt. And it's not because he's just lazy. He's going to lose everything. Even with their when they move from Harmony, he's not able to sell his farm right away. So he's going to show up in Kirtland without any money to buy any land or to build any house. And so he has to live off of the largesse of the charity of, of the Whitney's, living in their home for a time with the Morley family, living in their home for a time, living with the Johnson family in Hiram for a time and then living in the Newell K. Whitney store. He is literally the leader of a movement of thousands of people and he does not have a house. But yeah, he's just like doing it for the money. So he's all the money says, you know, it's like totally did it. She's greedy. He's trying to get rich. Yeah, most super rich people live in someone else's barn. That's always happening. I mean it. Joseph's early life, early leadership of the church, that time period of his life is one in which he will not have his own home. The Lord will even command a house to be built for them in Kirtland. And even that is going to be years before it's actually built. It's by the way, it's restored now and quite wonderful tour if you go for it. But I can tell you from working on Joseph Smith's papers and Brigham Young's papers that Brigham Young is still working through debts and lawsuits against Joseph Smith's debts. More than a decade after Joseph is.
- [49:08]
B
Dead.
- [49:12]
A
Brigham Young in Utah is having to deal with the debts of Joseph Smith's estate fairly regularly. And Joseph is, is never going to be allowed to even harvest his buckwheat. Basically. He's never able to actually start providing for himself. I know we like to think sometimes like, well, but he had the red brick store. And so obviously he was doing pretty well as a. No, he wasn't. Because that store was running in the red all the time. And as Brigham Young said, the reason why it happened was because if someone said, hey, I need $100 worth of goods, you just take it on my credit. If Joseph were to say, like every other creditor, yeah, you're going to have to provide some kind of collateral for that. I can't just let you have it. Then they would stalk out of there and say that Joseph isn't a true prophet. I mean, you. Sometimes I will say again, I don't want to personify this too much because it makes it sound like I in any way approximate in any way anything that Joseph ever thought, ever, Which I don't. But I will tell you as a religion professor, you occasionally feel this pressure from students where if you give them a bad grade because they were supposed to write a five page paper and they wrote a half page paper, that they will say that you've destroyed my testimony because you gave me this bad grade. Now, of course, we could have all kinds of conversations about the fact that, you know what, almost everyone got an A. It's just that you didn't because you didn't do it. So it's kind of a you thing that you didn't do it at all. Right. But that's a pressure that I regularly think about the fact that, you know, I don't want my class to be something that's taken as a negative for someone's overall testimony, even though that's not fair. Well, Brigham says that that's going on with Joseph in the, in the store that he runs constantly. That if Joseph knows that if he denies someone who comes in and says, hey, I need $50 of flour, but I can't pay you at all, that if Joseph says no, that that person's gonna go out in the streets and say, some prophet he is just sitting there, fat cat with all of his flour, probably has a buckwheat farm somewhere I don't even know about. I mean, that the, the idea behind it is this fear that if he doesn't, you know, act in what his nature is anyway, and that is to be charitable, that the repercussions might be for someone's soul. So I think that that's pretty rough in temporal labors. Thou shall not have strength, for that is not thy calling. Attend to thy calling and thou shalt have wherewith to magnify thine office and to expound all Scriptures and, And continue in laying on the hands and confirming the churches. Now, again, verse nine is a little bit loaded if you don't know what's going on. You read verse nine and you think, okay, yeah, keep confirming members. That sounds great. Remember, what's the problem going on right now in Colesville? They've babbed. They're having a hard time even baptizing people. And then when they've tried to have confirmation meetings, there are mobs that are assembling to prevent them from confirming people, members of the church. And we'll have a revelation that we'll. We'll cover shortly. And by shortly, I mean sometime next year where the entire background of it is Joseph trying to get to Colesville to confirm members of the church. So it's. This is a great example. Verse 9 is a great example where knowing the context and the history completely changes the way you read verse nine. We read it and we think, of course, yeah, of course, you're the. You're the leader of the church. You're going to go confirm people. But those confirmation meetings are putting Joseph at risk for his life. People that are threatening to do harm to him and to these members. So it's not just a throwaway line continuing laying on the hands and confirming the churches because he's trying to. And it's being met with violent opposition. So maybe he's asking God to even try to hold these meetings anymore. And the Lord's like, yep, this is what we do, even though people are upset, interestingly. And maybe it's worth spending a little bit of time on this. We don't know exactly when over the summer, Oliver Cowdery goes, you know, he goes AWOL and starts believing that Joseph has made an error in doctrine. Covenant section 20. We don't know exactly when that happens, but we do know that it appears to be after this revelation is received. Because Oliver isn't condemned in this revelation. But what you do have is this kind of foreshadowing. Hey, Oliver, remember what you're supposed to be doing, man. You know what I mean? That's not exactly how the Lord said it, but thy brother Oliver shall continue in bearing my name before the world and also to the church. And he shall not suppose that he can say enough in my cause. And lo, I am with him to the end, and he in me, he shall have glory, and not of himself, whether in weakness or strength, whether in bonds are free. At all times, in all places, he shall open his mouth and declare my gospel as with the voice of a Trump both day and night, and I will give unto him strength such as not known among men. Verses 10 through 12 to me are some of the most beautiful verses on sharing the Gospel because I have to say for myself, I readily and often feel insecurity about, I mean, about doing this podcast, about the fact that the more I talk about the gospel, the more hated I am. And I mean by the listeners. But I mean, the reality is you want to say how much is enough of proclaiming the Gospel and what Oliver Cowdery's told, you can't say enough. You can't say enough for the Gospel. All times, all places. I was at a meeting for it was the anniversary of the Religious Studies center at BYU that was founded by President Holland. And just a remarkable thing. And he was there at that meeting. And of course, he's not been doing as well, health wise. I think things have been very difficult since his wife passed away. He's a hero of mine in every possible way as a person, as a scholar, as a leader of the church. I love his talks and I love him. He doesn't know me from Adam. He couldn't pick me out of a lineup. If there was only one person in the lineup, you'd be like, I'm pretty sure it's the empty space for. No, no, there's only one person there. Yeah, it's empty space for. But he is at this, at this meeting and, and he gives a few remarks, kind of off the cuff. He wasn't intended to speak. And the, the thing that I took away from it, and this was just, just recently, he essentially said, if you knew what I knew, you would run. You would run everywhere you went, trying to share the gospel with more people, you would run. And that was a pretty profound thing to hear from him as he is in the twilight of his life and having given his life in service to the gospel and to God. His response to all of these scholars gathered in this room, they're religious educators and others, is, if you knew what I know, whatever you're doing, you would do even more. And. And it was, it was powerful when he said it. And it made me think of these verses in all times, in all places. Declare my gospel with a voice of a trump both night and day, and I will give unto him strength such as is not known among men. I know that promise is for Oliver Cowdery and not for me, but I can say that I am stunned at the voice that I've been allowed to even have in trying to preach the gospel. If you'd have asked me 20 years ago. I never would have thought that I'd be teaching classes in religious education, in church history and doctrine. I would not have said that I'd be giving firesides. I would not have said that I'd be publishing books. I certainly wouldn't have thought that I'd be working on the Joseph Smith Papers project and then, and then working on subsequent projects defending the prophets Joseph and Brigham. I would not have anticipated that as being my wife. And, and I can only say that the, whatever successes I have, and I know that they're teeny compared to most people. I know that my voice is almost nothing compared to most people. But for the people that my voice does reach, who, if even for a moment, feel that spark of the divinity of this gospel, and it gives them some hope and it gives them some strength as they connect even more fully with the Lord Jesus Christ.
- [60:23]
B
That.
- [60:25]
A
Can only be because God is magnifying our efforts through His Holy Spirit and making our voices as a trump. I know that there's a lot of things that are in doctrine covenant section 24 that are not super helpful for Joseph. He's worried about finances and he's worried about stress and he's worried about, you know, the church. And the response he gets from God is essentially, be still and know that I'm God, I'm going to take enough care of you, but you're not ever going to be rich. You're never going to not have this burden upon you to preach the Gospel. And so lay two with a helping hand and get. And get going on it. So anyway, thank you so much for listening. Hopefully you got some insight out of doctrine covenant section 24. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.