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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.
- [00:38]
B
Hi.
- [00:38]
A
Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. Season six, which sounds like we're just making up seasons. You know, they do that online with like, especially, like, streamed shows where they call it a season, but it's like six episodes. Like, oh, now it's season two.
- [00:54]
B
Saturday. I think Saturday Night Live did. It did something with the Voice where it was like, we're on season 38, but that's only six or two years in or something like that.
- [01:03]
A
Running for eight years. We're on season 47, but this is actually. I mean, why don't we take a cue? Why don't we just tell everyone that this is season 25? They would believe it, right?
- [01:20]
B
Well, the reason you don't is because every year we creep ever closer to season 38.
- [01:27]
A
To season 38.
- [01:28]
B
So you don't want to do that.
- [01:30]
A
I need the polygamy denial movement to die down before we get there. That's what I'm looking for.
- [01:37]
B
I think 32 years from now when we're all just plugged into some AI or a hologram, that's the hope, is that eventually that will die down.
- [01:46]
A
I hope that I'll eventually be. You know, the podcast starts out like this. Welcome to the standard of new podcasts. I brushed my teeth two years ago and my dentures. That's what I hope. Or you know what? Maybe you and I will eventually, instead of just loving and playing off of Statler and Waldorf, we'll just start sounding like them.
- [02:12]
B
We're only a couple years away. We are aging rapidly.
- [02:17]
A
Well, I digress. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat. I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc, and what we decided we would do because this is New Year's, you know, happy New Year, right?
- [02:30]
B
Yeah. Happy New Year, Garrett.
- [02:31]
A
Yeah, there's. You can't see it, but there's confetti falling in the background. And I think Ryan Seacrest is also giving the countdown.
- [02:40]
B
I think they've even wheeled out Dick Clark, actually, again.
- [02:42]
A
Wow. Wow. It would be great if it was someone who's already passed away, actually. And it's just a coffin that they bring out for the New Year special. We decided, you know, it is the holidays. I am right now in Israel. And so, you know, that made recording a little bit difficult, but because we're talking about Genesis and the beginning of Moses, that we would take one of our episodes that we did on the premium side of things where I may have ranted a little bit about the book of Moses. It was a pretty epic rant, I think.
- [03:28]
B
Yes.
- [03:29]
A
I mean, if I have to rate my own rants.
- [03:31]
B
Yeah, no, it was. On a scale of 1 to 36, it was at least a 22.
- [03:36]
A
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't know what the dandometer is anymore. I mean, Leslie sent us a giant.
- [03:41]
B
It's up to a million.
- [03:41]
A
Yeah, Leslie sent us a giant thermometer so that we could move it up and down and, and I need to do that while we're in the episode.
- [03:49]
B
That's fine.
- [03:49]
A
Just so you know that Richard could see. The problem is if Richard saw the dander meter creeping up, he would just keep pushing further.
- [03:56]
B
No, it's better, it's better podcast people. People cry out for angry Garrett, by the way. Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back.
- [04:06]
A
Sorry.
- [04:07]
B
No, it's season, Season six, you know, we, we're still, we're still figuring it out.
- [04:12]
A
Yeah. I figure that by season seven, we won't even be introducing each other. I'll just be like, so what do you want to talk about? And then just. It'll be more like drunk history than it will be a Latter Day Saint podcast. So we're going to re release this. You know, that was once premium. And we're talking about, obviously we're talking about the early revelations of the church, but it just so happens to fall right when Joseph receives the vision of Moses, which is, you know, where a good portion of the book of Moses comes from. And I feel like it's something that you need to know as you go in studying the Old Testament, as you study Genesis, and as you study the book of Moses this year in Come Follow Me. There is no way that we appreciate how incredible the book of Moses is. I, I, every time I even think about it, I, I, I stand all amazed. I take a step back and I go. It is stunning to me how incredible it is. So thank you for humoring us and, and, and we will, we will continue with this, and I promise we'll have better. Well, we won't have better content.
- [05:32]
B
No, my gosh. No.
- [05:33]
A
We'll have content, though, right?
- [05:35]
B
If you want to call it that. Words will be said. That will last roughly 50 minutes.
- [05:42]
A
Okay. Yeah, words will Be said thank you to everybody. I hope all of your New Year's bullpix came in the way you were looking. Unfortunately, I hedged my third mortgage on Tulane, but thank you so much for joining us. Hi. Welcome to another episode of Search these Commandments, a Standard of Truth podcast production. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.
- [06:10]
B
Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. I'm very excited to discuss doctrine covenants section 24 this week, I believe. Is that where we're at?
- [06:19]
A
Well, we are on that. I wondered if you wanted to let the folks who are undoubtedly worried that they have for yawn these several Sundays in a row awoken hoping to have a section talked about that we covered in church five months ago. They're hoping that they would have that just for their own personal study.
- [06:45]
B
Yes, and what we have to tell you is the promise of 2029, where when Doctrine Covenants Section 24 comes around, you're going to be the most prepared sometime around February of the year of our Lord 2029.
- [07:00]
A
And you need to be ready. I mean, this, we're giving you the tools. This is the Six Sigma of getting ready for Sunday school four years from now. But you're not going to just wow everybody, you know, just overnight. You've got to take this, you've got to listen to it, then you got to listen to it, then you got to listen to it again, forget that you listened to it, come back, listen to it a fourth time, and then right before the week, four years from now, listen to it again.
- [07:34]
B
The Olympics will have come and gone. The church will have changed their curriculum. We might not even have the Doctrine Covenants as it currently is constituted. The second coming may have already come, but you will be prepared for doctrine covenants section 24. That's our. That's the, that's the standard of truth promise, Garrett.
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A
Yeah, I mean, I mean, we do believe that they could add or remove revelations from the Doctrine and Covenants. So there's.
- [08:00]
B
Before you've done many, many, many, there's.
- [08:03]
A
A chance that, in fact I will say something about a revelation that will then be removed. And, and by the time someone listens to it, it won't even be pertinent anymore.
- [08:19]
B
Well, so it is interesting. You've mentioned in previous podcasts, Rough Stone Rolling is an example. It's a great book. Right. But that was written a long time ago. And there's all kinds of additional things that have been discovered and found. And so by the time that we're going to come back to this section, the things we're talking about may be completely irrelevant.
- [08:39]
A
Yeah. Or given what I'm. What I have to say, they might already be irrelevant. Irrelevant. Irrelevant. I can't even say irrelevant. It's been a long. It's been a long summer. It has been a long week. Been a long.
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B
Yes. Well, Garrett, I'm excited.
- [08:56]
A
Somewhere north of 95 degrees where I'm recording this, it makes Missouri feel good. That's where we're at right now. And as I'm speaking, Richard can slowly watch the sweat start to bead on my face. And so I think that's a good time. Unfortunately, we're not talking about hell, at least not as much.
- [09:21]
B
No.
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A
We are talking about some antagonists of the church. So that. I mean, that's kind of.
- [09:28]
B
Yeah, it's good. But they're not in. They're not in Missouri, though.
- [09:31]
A
No. No, no. Although church movies would have you believe that every enemy of the church has a Missouri accent. These early enemies happen to be from New York. It's crazy.
- [09:46]
B
Although one of my favorite things that's on the tour when you lead one of the tours, Garrett, is you also make every person that's an enemy to the church have a Missouri accent, no matter what part of the world they're from. They could be from England, and they're.
- [10:03]
A
Just like half a dozen saw these Mormons arrived on the banks of the upper Missouri. Yeah, it's true. It's true that when.
- [10:11]
B
That's a Birmingham accent.
- [10:12]
A
Yeah. When I create voices of people that are antagonists, I do sometimes fall into the stereotype of the Southerners that. That tried to kill us. But, you know, we're not in Missouri yet in these Scriptures, but we are somewhere where there is a great deal of. Of persecution. So let's set the stage. The church is organized. Right. I don't want to go too far back or Richard will be great. It's organized in April, and in June, they have their first church conference. The minutes of that meeting. So it's June 9th. They hold it in Fayette. So that's where the Whitmers live. And Joseph will get up, he'll read Ezekiel chapter 14. He'll then read the Articles and Covenants of the Church. And all of the Church will vote on Articles and Covenants, which is Doctrine and Covenants, Section 20. And they'll unanimously accept it. And then they'll ordain Samuel Smith to be an elder, and then Joseph Smith Sr. And Hyrum Smith ordained to be priests. And that's all that we really have of the minutes, outside of the fact that there was exhortation made by Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. And it's like, well, it'd be wonderful if you told us what they said. And apparently the clerk keeping the minutes of this first conference of the church was like, I've got. I've got some laundry to do. Let's go, let's go. Yeah, Joseph talked, Oliver talked, and we're done.
- [12:04]
B
Oh, that's funny. It's like my grandpa kept the notes.
- [12:07]
A
Was he pretty brief?
- [12:10]
B
Well, look, here's the thing. I think I mentioned this on the podcast before, but my grandfather, Grandpa Leduc, he was an on time gentleman. And when church was over, it was over. And he would shake his keys at the bishop, signaling to him that it was time to wrap it up. And I can only imagine if my grandfather were taking that, he'd have a big set of, I don't know, like jailer keys. And he's shaking them at Joseph because it doesn't matter. It's time to go. Let's wrap this up.
- [12:48]
A
It's funny, the. The paucity of our accounts of Joseph speaking in these early records is just painful. Like you have multiple minutes where it's like, and then Joseph exhorted everyone. Wouldn't you like to know the first sermon that Joseph gave in a general conference of the church?
- [13:10]
B
Yeah, I sure would.
- [13:11]
A
Instead, what you got is Joseph exhorted, we'll see you guys next conference. It's almost like the, you know, the summary that I get when students write essays. This is your essay exam. You need to be as detailed as you possibly can. Please describe the effects of the transcontinental railroad reaching Utah territory. And they're like, the railroad changed a lot of things. And a lot of things were different because railroad came, the railroad came. And so it changed things. And then Brigham Young thought that things changed. There was a lot of changing that happened. It changed a lot. And that that's pretty close to word for word of an actual essay exam I received. But I digress. The whole point in talking about this June conference is we have a functional church now and we have them gathering together the same way the Articles and Covenants said that they should holding these quarterly meetings in which people are accepting doctrine of the church. They are ordaining new people to different offices in the church. They're listing off who the elders of the church are. At this first conference, the people who received their licenses were David Whitmer, John Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, and Ziba Peterson. And then Samuel H. Smith is also going to be ordained at that conference. And so you have these early leadership, early leadership offices in the church. So they go back home. So you'd think, okay, at this point, it was a struggle to get the Book of Mormon translated. I mean, it was a struggle for Joseph to get the plates. It was a super struggle for Joseph to get the Book of Mormon translated and then also a struggle to get the book published. Once they were done, shouldn't things be getting a little bit easier? And they just aren't. There's a couple of things that are going on somewhere in the background of all of this. The patience of Joseph Smith's father in law, Isaac Hail, is wearing quite thin. Isaac Hail has put up with Joseph Smith eloping with his daughter. And the fact that he continues to, you know, preach this gold Bible stuff. And we're starting to transition to. Over this summer, things are going to get bad enough in harmony that Joseph's actually going to move away from the place where he lives. So he owns a farm in Harmony. I mean, it's one of the sad parts of Joseph's life. He actually doesn't move off of his farm because of the revelation that commands everyone to move to Ohio. He actually moves off of his farm a few months earlier because the threatened persecution is so great that they decide they've got to get out of Dodge. Now, that's all coming in August. So that's not quite yet. But Doctrine and Covenant Section 24 is received in July. Well, what's going on by July? Well, where the church is growing the most is where you have this large extended family of the knights that are preaching to their cousins and preaching to their brothers and sisters and their uncles and their aunts. And there are more and more people in Colesville that are looking to become members of the church. But this is where Joseph is going to see protracted persecution that's not just directed at him. Now, it is certainly going to be directed at him, but it's not just going to be directed at him. And so the summer months of 1830, there are multiple accounts of just how difficult things are. One minor caveat before I jump right into doctrine covenant section 24, 10 minutes in. And that is Joseph actually receives another revelation that's not in the Doctrine and Covenants in June of 1830. So roughly the same time as that conference that took place. We don't know when. It's not dated any more than June of 1830. This revelation is well known to everybody, even though it's not in the Doctrine and Covenants. And it was titled A Revelation given to Joseph the Revelator, June 1830. The words of God which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain and he saw God face to face, and he talked with him. The Book of Moses, which many people associate with Joseph attempt to translate the Bible, actually precedes Joseph Smith's attempt to translate the Bible. And I've said this before, and I will say it again here, and it will be completely unhelpful to you in Sunday School in 2029, because you'll be like, pearl, great price. We don't even talk about that. But the Book of Moses is one of the most fantastical revelations that Joseph Smith receives. And what do I mean by that? I mean the doctrines that are in it are so far beyond where Joseph is in 1829 and 1830 that I'm telling you as a historian, as a Joseph Smith historian, if the Book of Moses had never been published, if, if, you know, five years ago we found a manuscript called the. The Revelation Given to Joseph the Revelator, and it was about Moses, and we were trying to date it, and it didn't have a date on it. All of us wonderfully intelligent historians, the conclusion we would draw is that this revelation had to have been received sometime in the 1840s, probably 1843 or 1844. That would be the conclusion we would come to based upon the doctrine that is in it, because it is so far beyond. I mean, like, two revelations ago. We're like, so, like, should we baptize people again who've, like, already been baptized? Like, that's where they're at. They're at the level of practicality. And then you go through, now, this isn't the entirety of the Book of Moses. It's just portions of it. But the entire conversation between Moses and Satan, and Satan, you know, pounding on the ground and saying, worship me. All of that is in here. But think of just how deep this theology is. Where Moses, after he's had this exchange, he heard a voice saying, blessed art thou, Moses, for I, the Almighty have chosen thee. And I'm reading from the manuscript version of this, by the way. So if it ends up being a few words different than the pro. Of Great price, please, please realize. Do I have to give those caveats or not? Well, no.
- [21:32]
B
It's nice to know someone's following word for word and it's not following up. It's like every time I give a talk and sacrament meeting or something, and I'm just kind of paraphrased. I'm kind of winging it. And someone's like, you said, doctrine, covenant, sexual. Where are.
- [21:48]
A
Where are you? So.
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B
No, it's nice. It's nice. Nice to do.
- [21:52]
A
Just in case people, you know, missionaries are, you know, are silently taking the notes that were not taken at the first June conference. He says, I the Almighty have chosen thee, and thou shalt be made stronger than the many waters, for they shall obey thy command even as thou wert God. And lo, I am with you even to the end of thy days, for thou shalt deliver my people from bondage, even Israel. My people. Now, that. Okay. There are other revelations that are similar to that. And it came to pass that as the voice was still speaking, he cast his eyes and he beheld the earth, yea, even all the face of it. And there was not a particle of which he did not behold, discerning it by the Spirit of God. And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof. And there was not a soul which he beheld, and not and he discerned them by the Spirit of God. And their numbers were great, even as numberless as the sand upon the seashore. And he beheld many lands, and each land was called Earth, and there were many inhabitants upon the face thereof. And it came to pass that Moses called upon God and saying, tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them. And behold, the glory of God was upon Moses that Moses stood in the presence of God, and he talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses, for mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom, and it remaineth in me. And by the word of my power have I created them, which is mine. Only begotten son, full of grace and truth, and worlds without number have I created, and also created them for mine own purpose. And by the same I created them which is mine only begotten. By the same I created them which is my only begotten. And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many, but only an account of this earth and the inhabitants thereof give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds which have passed away by the word of my power. And there are also many which now stand and numberless are they unto man. But all things are numbered unto me. For they are mine, and I know them. I mean, like a week ago, they were like do these Baptists have to get re baptized? And now Joseph by revelation is declaring something that the entire Christian world does not believe, and that is that there are many earths and there are many populated planets, and that God created all of them and there are so many that they can't be numbered except that God has the ability to number them. That is some pretty deep stuff. And it's verified by Moses. Response, right. Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth and its inhabitants, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content. So clearly what this revelation is declaring is Moses is told that there are multiple earths that have people that God created on them. And the Lord spake unto Moses saying, the heavens, there are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man, but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof shall, even so shall another come. And there is no end to my works, neither my words. For behold, this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And now Moses, my son, I will speak unto you concerning this earth upon which thou standest. So then he's going to go into that. I just hope everyone can contemplate for a moment how incredible this is, this exchange that Moses has with the Lord and that Joseph is receiving this in June of 1830. Joseph doesn't know that there's multiple degrees of glory in the kingdom of heaven. Joseph doesn't know that hell doesn't really exist, although he has an inkling from doctrine covenant section 19. He, he does not really understand that Joseph does not know that there are going to be temple covenants that are required. Joseph doesn't understand at any rate what the effects of the sealing keys will be, nor does he have them till 1836. But here he knows something that is essentially rejected by all Christendom, and that is that there's people on other earths, and apparently many earths have passed away, many heavens have passed away, and they're all the workmanship of God. It's mind boggling and mind blowing. I know that you want to talk solely about doctrine of section 24, but I had to throw that in there. Richard.
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B
No, it's, it's, it is, it is pretty incredible that it is one of my favorite things that both Section 76 and the book of Moses come so, I mean really early. And it blows away anything that anybody thought.
- [27:46]
A
Hyrum Page is still getting revelations from rocks that he just finds in his yard. And Joseph is receiving revelation that God has inhabitants on multiple earths and that God's work and glory is bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The very fact that God has a work would be rejected. In fact, if you listen to what Christian theologians have to say, they will stress God did not need to create us. God needs nothing from us. God is complete without us. God is great and immortal and immaterial aside from us. For God's will and pleasure, God created us, but he didn't have to create us. We are nothing to God. I literally listened to an evangelical pastor just this weekend say almost those exact words. We were not essential to God. God exists in his glory without us and he does not need us. And that's exactly what Joseph would have heard his whole life growing up. You are meaningless to God. You should praise God if he decided to give you the gift of faith and that you're somehow saved, because you certainly don't deserve to be saved. God is and always was. And us pitiful humans should be lucky for the brief time we have on earth before we're thrust into the hell that we all deserve to go to. And Joseph receives that. It's my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. That's why worlds have passed away.
- [29:51]
B
It's interesting, I was looking at a Pew research study from a couple years ago on the reason why a person chooses religion. What are the things that make a person want to be a part of a religion? Any religion. Salvation was at the top of that list, as you would assume. There were lots of really good things. Part of that, one of them was though answers to the big questions. And that's the thing that is, it is the most fascinating about what you're talking about because all other aspects or other sects within Christianity, they fall short on that point that there is an answer. But the answer leaves you wanting because it just has so many follow up questions to what that answer is.
- [30:45]
A
Right. So if you say God created us for his glory, okay. I mean a latter day Saint can kind of go along with that. I mean, maybe not created, you know, so we have. Our bodies were created. Yes, yes, we agree on that point. It's, you know, right. We have to. We're playing a little fast and loose with the term created. But if you were to ask, they would say, for God's glory, he created us for his own will and pleasure. But if you say, well then does that mean we can add to God's glory? And they would say no, God's glory is complete. You can't add to it. So they'll say God created you for his glory, but you aren't actually part of his glory. It's more like they're saying God created you because of his glory, but even then it's not. He didn't have to do it. Essentially, it kind of boils down to God created you because God created you. Well, then why did he make this world a cesspool? And why did he make my immortal spirit when he knew I was going to burn in hell forever? And the answer to that would be, who are you to question God? I'm not surprised that a sinner like you dabbling in Mormonism would question God that way. Frankly, I do a little more than dabble. But the idea behind it, yeah, those questions that can't be answered because it's very easy to blame things on free will. It's very easy to blame things on. On. Well, Adam and Eve fell. And that's why. But you only have to ask one more question to realize that those are the worst answers anyone's ever given for anything. Why is this world so terrible? Well, Adam and Eve ate fruit. Okay, who made Adam and Eve and who made the fruit? And who made the consequence of them eating the fruit? The destruction of all mankind? It wasn't Adam and Eve who made that the consequence. And God already knew that they would eat the fruit. So if God's going to create a tree that's going to lead to the destruction of all mankind, how about you just don't build the tree? Seems simple enough. And again, if you're only doing this for your glory, and your glory can't be enlarged upon at all, well, then why are you creating this tree that destroys all mankind? You can't have a purpose in it because you're already God. You're gaining nothing from this. You're creating these humans and their souls out of nothing. They didn't exist before. So why are you doing this? The difference for Latter Day Saint theology very, very, very early on is God telling Moses creation has a purpose. And it is not just because I can do cool stuff, look at the parlor tricks I can do. Creation has a purpose because God's glory is making people like him, bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, which Joseph wouldn't have understood yet what that meant, but will later understand that eternal life means not just living forever, but and not just living forever in the presence of God, which is already incredible, but actually becoming like God. And you know if you have to find a place where there's theological blasphemy to get started, Moses is a great place to start. If you're, if you're a, you know, if you happen to be a Presbyterian theologian listening to this podcast, which you are. Want to do. Maybe they do. I listen to theirs.
- [35:06]
B
Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure that they listen to the premium version of the podcast.
- [35:10]
A
Okay, well, maybe they're getting it pirated from some missionary that's disgruntled.
- [35:17]
B
That's funny. I was wondering, so you have early on in the church some real heavyweights theologically, some heavy duty folks that think through a lot of things and write a lot of things. Is the weight of what you're describing, is that understood early on, or does it take a while for that to be really the weight of it all?
- [35:42]
A
You know, this is a really good question because what we tend to do when we're doing amateur history, and frankly, I've seen some well trained historians do the same thing, is we tend to really want to take the absence of evidence as evidence. It's like the way we're trying to be Aristotle. And so we're taking this inductive reasoning to try to say, well, no one said anything about the book of Moses in 1830, so therefore no one must have cared about the book of Moses in 1830. But what is the problem with that analogy? Well, we have almost nothing from 1830. I mean, you just, you just read or I just read to you the minutes of the first conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It was like four lines long. Joseph read a scripture, we prayed, we ordained these people, peace out. I mean, that was, didn't say peace out. But it was basically they said, seacrest out. Yeah, seacrest out. Yeah, he was alive even back then. So we don't have complete documentary records from all of these eras. We can say from the very, very limited sources that we do have no one in 1830s talking about it, but that's almost a meaningless statement to make. In fact, it's the kind of statement that people make when they're trying to deceive people, when they're trying to say, well, I mean, you guys act like this is a really important revelation, but how come no one talked about the first vision until 1832? You know what I mean? They argue from this absence of evidence as if we had a complete record. So you don't have someone saying, when Doctrine and covenant, section 93 is received, holy cow, this is ridiculous. That doesn't mean that people weren't saying, holy cow, this is ridiculous. It just means we don't have a record of it like we do for some other things. But yeah, the book of Moses seems to kind of silently pass now. We don't even know how widely circulated it is until it gets published in the church's newspaper. So maybe it's kind of private. Maybe people don't know about it. Maybe it's just for Joseph. Maybe he knows about it. But it is one of those very difficult questions to answer for careful historians. How did people react to this at the time? And if you don't have anyone reacting to it, you can postulate maybe this didn't come across as being a big deal. But you don't have. You don't have a source for that. Let me give you a very good example of that. That's not a very good example. But I said that it was.
- [39:07]
B
Yes, no, that's right. Just confidence is all you need.
- [39:11]
A
We don't have any sources after 1832, after Joseph receives doctrine covenant, section 76. We don't have any sources where Joseph says these words. Wow, I can't believe everything I've learned. You know what really troubles me, though, is that even though Protestant hell doesn't really exist and everyone's going to a kingdom of glory, obviously Alvin's not going to the celestial kingdom because the revelation says that you have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. And he wasn't ever baptized. So I guess he's not going to the celestial kingdom. Now, that dialogue is not in Joseph's journal. It's not in any letter that he wrote, it's not in any sermon that he gave that we have any account of. And yet we know that that's how Joseph interpreted it. Because when he sees Alvin in the celestial kingdom four years later in 1836, I marveled that he'd obtained to such a kingdom. Well, Joseph wouldn't be marveling if he hadn't already concluded that Alvin couldn't go to the celestial kingdom. So I think that's why we have to be a little careful about what does someone know? What do they think about the revelations as Joseph receives them? Because in that case, we have no sources where Joseph talks about Alvin not being able to go to the celestial kingdom. And yet then we get a source from Joseph himself four years later, where Joseph clearly tied the two together. He clearly saw baptism was essential for the celestial kingdom and Alvin didn't have it. And of course, that's why he's overjoyed. So we don't know for sure, but we do know that it will later come to be a bigger deal. But, you know, one of the most frustrating aspects of being a Latter Day Saint historian, I mean, aside from, you know, being behind whenever we're trying to cover the Doctrine and Covenants and being nowhere near, you know, where people at in the manual is just how little supposed theologians know about what we believe. It's stunning to me to hear doctors of Divinity say things that they don't. The reason why they're not making commentary on the radical nature of what we believe is they're still going for the you guys think Jesus, Satan are brothers? They're still going for notice. I went a little southern there.
- [42:17]
B
Yeah, I did. You can't help it.
- [42:19]
A
I can't help it. But they're still using that theme. They aren't digging into the Book of Moses and saying this goes against all of the creeds of Christendom.
- [42:39]
B
It actually reminds me of that video, I think of reference before of I can't remember the name of the atheist, but of an atheist that is on a Christian podcast. And they ask him the question, if you were to be a member of any Christian faith, what would it be? And he would say, the Mormons, and they laughed at him.
- [43:01]
A
And.
- [43:01]
B
And then he started citing all of these reasons why he would and things that they've never even heard of before. To your point.
- [43:11]
A
Well, it's an interesting thing, right, because of the most obvious evidence that the Christian world draws near unto God with their lips, but their hearts are far from them and they teach for commandments the doctrines of men, is that I can meet a theologian, someone with a doctorate of divinity who has never read the Book of Mormon but will talk about Latter Day Saint theology. I've read all of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion and that's thousands of pages, by the way. Holy cow. And it's some of the most dry reading you've ever had in your life. In fact, my main complaint with Calvinism is Institutes of the Christian Religion. Not the theology, the fact that I had to read it. I've read Luther's books and I'm not saying I'm more educated than they are. What I'm saying is it's a stunning thing. Stunning that a so called Doctorate of religion has done so little work on understanding what Latter Day Saints believe that they haven't even read the religious book that Latter Day Saints hold to. It's a crazy thing to talk about Islamic theology Having never even read the Quran, it's, it's crazy to like think that you have some kind of insight into it when you haven't even done what the most basic, you know, eight year old in Islam has done. So. So I don't know if it's laziness. I, I don't know if they've, they've drank their own Kool Aid for years and it's, you know, if you read the Book of Mormon, you're reading Satan's Word that will keep testifying of Christ, every other word, but it's the wrong Christ. Why do we know it's the wrong Christ? Well, because later when we realize that Joseph isn't a Trinitarian, then it seems like it's the wrong Christ. And so what if people believe that? Just take your exchange you were talking about with the atheists and the Christians. Someone who does not believe in God, who is going on podcasts proclaiming that God doesn't exist, says, you know, if I were to believe in God, I think I would believe this. And your reaction isn't to grab ahold of him and say, so you could, you could believe in God. Let's push that a little further. Right. Instead, the reaction was, oh, that's not even Christian. That's not even Christian.
- [46:09]
B
They thought he was making a joke.
- [46:11]
A
Yeah. And to the point of, you know, we're probably a little late in the day to get all the way to doctrine covenant section 24 today, but we can set some of the context, and that is after the church is founded. What Joseph finds is that the sporadic, sometimes mob, threatened violence that he experienced personally had started to extend to other people that were believers, and especially in Colesville. Now, Colesville is unique because it's one of the membership centers of the church, but it's also a place in which the members start to make up a considerable portion of the surrounding area. So look in Palmyra. Palmyra's got 3,4000 people living in the area. I mean, maybe as much as 5,000, depending on how you count things. There's like the Joseph Smith Sr. Family, Martin Harris, Porter Rockwell and Ezra Thayer, but he doesn't really live there. He lives a town over. I mean, there's almost nobody. Okay, so there's, let's, let's just say, let's give the benefit of the doubt and say there's two dozen believers in Palmyra. Okay, two dozen out of 4,000 is not much of a threat. Well, how about we go to Fayette then? Well, nobody lives in Fayette Even today, nobody lives in Fayette. The only people living in Fayette are the Whitmers. And that's the reason why they go there to translate the Book of Mormon in the first place. There's nobody there. You know, it's hard to raise a mob with pitchforks when there's only one of you. There's two of you. Come on, boys, let's go. Well, just you. Come on, Bill, let's go. Now, they're not that far away from Waterloo. So I suppose if residents of Waterloo that weren't in any way affected directly by the believers in the Whitmer clan, they might, you know, you know, come down with some pitchforks, but they don't. Colesville is a different story. There are approaching, there will be at least approaching nearly 100 believers in this little area. Well, that does have an impact on the little teeny community that Colesville was at the time and still is. If 100 people in a town of a thousand start believing a different religion, that has a pretty big impact, whereas 24 people in 4,000 does not. And so the residents of Colesville are going to start experiencing some really sustained persecution that at least borders on the threats of violence. The way that it's told in Joseph Smith history is that right after the conference, they go back home and they get together to try to baptize people that are in the Colesville area. So this is how it reads. Shortly after this conference, David Whitmer baptized the following persons in Seneca Lake. John Poorman, John Jolly, Julianne Jolly, Harriet Jolly, Jerusha Smith. That's the one married to Hyrum Catherine Smith, Joseph's sister. William Smith, Don Carlos Smith, Peter Rockwell, Caroline Rockwell, and Electa Rockwell. Immediately after conference. This is Joseph Smith history, so they put it in Joseph Smith's own first person. I returned to my own house, and from there, accompanied by my wife, Oliver Calvary, John Whitmer and David Whitmer journeyed again to visit Mr. Joseph Knight of Colesville. We found a number in the neighborhood still believing and now anxious to be baptized. We appointed a meeting for the Sabbath. And on the afternoon of Saturday, we erected a dam across a stream of water for the purpose of attending to the ordinance. But during the night, a mob collected and tore down our dam, which hindered us in attending to the baptism on the Sabbath. So one of the fatal flaws of Mormonism, unfortunately, is the belief in baptism by immersion. Now, this wouldn't work if you were trying to stop, like Methodists, from baptizing infants. Like you wouldn't be able to like tear down their dam in the stream because they just throw some water in the air and call it good, right? You know, you'd pour it out, poured out from your pitcher and boom, you know. Same thing with Presbyterians, but for Latter Day Saints we are performing baptisms by immersion, which incidentally, how do people react to theology. Clearly, the residents of Colesville know that the way Mormons baptize is by immersion. Otherwise breaking down their dam would be meaningless. If they were baptizing the same way everyone else was baptizing, you'd have to stop all water from getting into their hands to keep them from being baptized. So clearly there's evidence that the residents of Colesville are well aware. Latter Day Saints are saying that you have to be baptized, that you have to be baptized by proper authority, and that you have to be baptized in the proper way, which happens to be immersion in his history. Joseph says, we afterward found out that this mob had been instigated to this act of molestation by certain sectarian priests in the neighborhood who began to consider their craft in danger and took this plan to stop the progress of the truth. And the sequel will show how determinedly they prosecuted their opposition as well as how little purpose. In the end, Sabbath arrived and we held our meeting. Oliver Cowdery preached and others of us bore testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon and the doctrine of repentance, baptism for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Amongst our audience were those who had torn down our dam and who seemed to wish to give us trouble, but did not until after the meeting was dismissed. And they immediately commenced talking to those whom they considered our friends to try to turn them against our doctrines. And then they give this very detailed explanation of one sister that her name's Emily Coburn. So she's the sister to the wife of Newell Knight. So she's Newell Knight's sister in law. Okay. Well, she had been attending the local Presbyterian Church and this Presbyterian minister found out that she, like her extended family, were investigating this gold Bible delusion stuff. And he kept trying to persuade her not to have anything to do with, you know, the Mormonites or the people who believe in the Book of Mormon. He tries all kinds of things to prevent her from being a part of this. This is this explanation. He endeavored to have her leave her sister's house. So here's the problem. She's staying with her sister, Newell Knight's wife. So he's trying to get her to leave the house so that she's no longer around this Mormonite delusion, to have her leave her sister's house and to go with him to her father's who lived at a distance. For this purpose he had recourse to stratagem. He told her that one of her brothers was waiting for at a certain place and wished her to have to go home with him. He succeeded in getting her a little distance from the house. When seeing that her brother was not waiting for her, she refused to go any further with him. Him, upon which he got a hold of her by the arm to try to force her along. But her sister, who was soon with them and the two women were too many for him. I think that's a little 19th century jab at the man's masculinity perhaps, if that's what the intention is. And he was forced to sneak off without his prey. After all his labor and ingenuity, nothing daunted, however, he went to her father, represented to him something or other which induced the old gentleman to give him a power of eternity, which as soon as our meeting was over on the above named Sunday evening, he immediately served upon her and carried her off to her father's residence by open violence against her will. All his labor was in vain, however, for the said Emily Coburn in a short time was baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So look at what this apparently Presbyterian minister was doing. First of all, to get her to go to her dad's house where she wasn't by the Mormonites. He lied to her and told her, hey, walk with me, your brother's waiting ahead of you. And when she realizes, hey, I don't see my brother, he grabbed a hold of her and tried to pull her along. When that didn't work, he went to her dad, had her dad fill out a power of attorney giving this preacher the right to treat his daughter the way that he would treat his daughter in the 19th century. Unmarried women have very few rights. Their dad has complete say over them until they are 26 years old, in most cases, if they're unmarried, and then forcibly essentially kidnaps her. But I guess legally, because he had the power of attorney and drags her off to her dad's house. This is not just, hey, what about Joe Smith talking to God and his angels? This is actual physical violence. In fact, some of the earliest physical violence perpetrated against a believer is perpetrated against this woman who wants to be baptized. And they are physically Dragging her away. Emily Coburn. Well, that night passes, and they've knocked the dam down. So what do they do? Well, that was Sunday. So Monday morning, early, early, the saints get up before anyone's awake. They go back to the stream. They rebuild the dam to make it store enough water that you can get someone underneath there. I mean, I don't know if they knew your technique of just telling them to bend their knees more. Bend their knees more.
- [58:39]
B
Just sit down. Just sit down and I'll go all the way down.
- [58:44]
A
Well, they repair the dam, and they proceeded to baptize. Thirteen persons were baptized under the hands of Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith, Hezekiah Peck and wife, Joseph Knight Sr. And wife. So the Pecks are related through marriage to the Knights. Polly Peck is Joseph Knight sr's wife. So the Pecks are Joseph Knight's wife's family, and they make up a considerable portion of the what will be the coleshill branch. Joseph Knight Sr. And wife. William Stringham and wife. Joseph Knight Jr. Aaron Culver and wife Levi Hale. Polly Knight, Julia Stringham. Before the baptism was finished, the mob began to collect. And shortly after we had retired, they amounted to about 50 men. They surrounded the house of Mr. Knight, raging with anger and apparently wishing to commit violence on us. Some asked us questions, others threatened us. So we thought it wisdom to leave and go to the house of Nulnite. But they also followed us. And it was only by exercise of great prudence on our part and reliance on our heavenly father that they were kept from laying violent hands on us. And so long as they chose to stay, we were obliged to answer them various unprofitable questions and to bear with insults and threatenings without number. Okay, so apparently this entire group follows them from Joseph Knight's house. They're threatening violence. They're saying things like, oh, if this church is true, how come Blah, blah. They're making jests. They're mocking them. They're making fake fun of them. All right, as these people have just been baptized, you talk about facing persecution the moment you're baptized. All of these people are facing it before they were even baptized, and now they're facing it after they're baptized. So they get together in order to confirm people who'd been baptized. That morning, the time appointed arrived, and our friends had nearly all collected together when, to my surprise, this is again written in Joseph Smith's first person. I was visited by a constable and arrested by him on a warrant on a charge of being a disorderly person, of setting the country in an uproar by preaching the Book of Mormon. The constable informed me soon after I'd been arrested that the plan of those who had got out the warrant was to get me into the hands of the mob who were now lying in ambush for me, but that he was determined to save me from them. And as he had found me to be a different sort of person from what had been represented to him, I soon found that he had told me the truth in this matter. For not far from Mr. Knight's house, the wagon in which we were in had set out, was surrounded by a mob who seemed only to wait for some signal from the constable. But to their great disappointment, he gave the horse a whip and drove me out of their reach. Whilst driving in great haste, one of the wagon wheels came off, which left us once more very nearly surrounded by them as they had come on in close pursuit. Okay, so picture this. Joseph gets arrested on this warrant of being a disorderly person, of setting the country in an uproar by preaching the Book of Mormon. And they want this constable to kind of like hold Joseph while the mob surrounds them. This guy, you know, betrays his mobbing buddies and whips the horse. The wagon has a wheel break off. So this scene is not the kind of scene that we usually think of from early church history, where they are literally fleeing, possibly from a tarring and feathering, possibly for their lives. I mean, anyone who's going to that much trouble to get their hands on Joseph Smith probably isn't planning just ask him about his trinitarian theology or the lack thereof, they probably aren't just about to say no. What are the words you guys say when you baptize? It's clearly an intent of violence. And according to Joseph, the threat of violence is so great that when they finally get to a tavern where they're going to lodge for the night, while they're going to this court to be tried in order that all might be right with himself and with me. This constable, he slept during the night with his feet against the door and a loaded musket by his side while I occupied the bed that was in the room. He having declared that if we were interrupted unlawfully that he would fight for me and defend me as far as is in his power. So this guy is scared enough about what is going to happen with this mob chasing him down the street that the door apparently swings inward on their room. He sleeps with his feet against it, so you can't push the door open with a gun in his hand. You come through that door, you're about to get a musket ball right through the face. My guess is these are some stories that many Latter Day Saints don't know from the earliest days of the organization of the church. The violence that is threatened in Colesville is going to be an overriding theme of what's going on over the course of the next several months. And it's one of the main reasons for this revelation that Joseph is going to receive, which will be doctrine covenant section 24. It'll be the underlying reason for many of the revelations, several at least, of the revelations that are received during this time period. So that's the reason why I wanted to set the background of it, and maybe we'll cover 24 and 25 next time. But that's a whole other background I might have to cover. But we will get into the text of the revelation now that people know that what is going on in that month interim following the conference is actual physical violence. Physical violence against a woman who's trying to join the church, threatened physical violence against members and other people trying to join the church, and apparent physical violence and lawfare, trying to use local laws to stop the church from growing. That Joseph Smith is a disorderly person because of the doctrine that he's preaching. All of that sets the stage for what Joseph is going to be told by the Lord in Doctrine and covenants section 24, which we unfortunately will have to postpone and talk about next time. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.