Standard of Truth – S6E2: President Holland and Avoiding Deception
Release Date: January 8, 2026
Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard Leduc

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc reflect on the passing and legacy of President Jeffrey R. Holland, sharing personal stories and the impact of his teachings. They address current issues facing Church members, particularly how to recognize and avoid deception—highlighted by a recent misleading email purporting to be from the Church. The hosts use both humor and scholarship to emphasize the importance of discerning trustworthy sources in matters of faith and history, and they also take time to share lighter moments, like the now-legendary "Yoohoo experiments."

Remembering President Holland (03:23–19:55)

Personal Reflections & Lasting Impact

• Tributes & Grief: Dirkmaat expresses difficulty with the loss:

  “It’s a tough thing when apostles that really helped shape your testimony as a young man, when they pass away.” (03:27 – B)

• Two Encounters with President Holland:

  • As a young man, Dirkmaat was “blown away by his teaching abilities and his directness and his doctrine.”
  • Later, while working on the Joseph Smith Papers, he witnessed Elder (then President) Holland’s involvement in reviewing historical material.

• Stories of Humor: Dirkmaat recounts being mistaken for “Pastor Derek” during a tour in Israel, receiving an “honorary doctorate of divinity” from a British evangelical tour guide.

  “He assumed we were a Christian group… started calling me Pastor Derek… that’s not correct.” (07:18 – B)
  (Leads to playful banter about “Pastor Derek” as a “youth pastor name.”)

• A Memorable Exchange: When reviewing sections of the Joseph Smith Papers extensively referencing Dr. Philastus Hurlbut, Holland wrote,

  “I have had just about enough of this Dr. Philastus Hurlbut. This miserable little creature did so much to Joseph Smith.” (11:45 – B)
  Dirkmaat interprets this as stemming from Holland’s deep testimony and frustration at Joseph’s detractors.

• President Holland’s Final Message to Faculty:

  “If you knew what I know, you would run—you would run from house to house, from assignment to assignment, trying to do everything you could to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ… If we truly understood the importance of the gospel, we would never be weary in well doing.” (13:15 – B)
  This statement, delivered as Holland’s health failed, deeply impressed and spiritually moved the listeners.

The Power of Influential Talks (15:11–19:24)

• Leduc’s Story: Cites Holland’s April 2001 talk about Elder and Sister Hess, Idaho farmers who, as missionaries, increased Belarusian potato yields elevenfold through service—a talk so meaningful that it motivated Leduc’s academic path and his desire to inspire others similarly.

• The Tone of Testimony:

  “If you have the right tone, you can say just about anything.” (19:24 – C)

• Carthage Reflection:
  Dirkmaat recalls Holland’s style of bearing testimony:

  “The proof they were not deceivers is that they were reading the very book they would have been lying about when they get murdered.” (19:38 – B)

Avoiding Deception in Church Communications (21:12–45:52)

Listener Email: Detecting a Fake “Church Email” (21:12–40:43)

• The Setup:
  Kevin, a listener, describes an email he received that imitated Church communication—complete with a “weathered” logo and formal language—purporting to announce new programs while actually lacing in faith-undermining misinformation.

• Host Reactions:

  • Dirkmaat:

    “If the email is not from the church, you should very easily know that everything else that’s in it is a deliberate, manipulative attempt to deceive… Why, if someone’s argument is good, would they have to lie to make it?” (28:50 – B)

  • The hosts make light of the unconvincing graphics (ex: “ran out of magenta ink,” 27:12–C), but pivot to the seriousness of misinformation and its intent.

• Specific Debunking:
  Dirkmaat addresses common tactics in deceptive communications:

  • Misrepresentation of sources (i.e., claiming the Gospel Topics essays say things they do not)
  • Presenting false claims as doctrinal changes (e.g., decanonizing the Book of Abraham)
  • Use of fraudulent “official” addresses and sender information

  “If you are lying to make your point, then you have no moral high ground. You can have a different opinion all you want... If you are asserting as fact things that are not facts, then you are a liar and a reprobate.” (33:40 – B)

• Avoiding Such Sources:

  “Once you know they’re willing to lie about one thing, for all you know, the other things that you don’t know, all the background on, they’re willing to lie about that.” (36:39 – B)

• Practical Advice:

  • Guard your testimony and avoid “anti-Mormon garbage.”
  • If a source argues against the living prophet or Church, “that’s when it’s time to end the conversation.” (35:50 – B)
  • Rely on official Church communication and trusted spiritual sources.

The Challenge of Growing Deceptions (40:43–45:52)

• Leduc’s Perspective:

  “These things are only going to become more difficult to distinguish... With AI and other things… There are going to be more and more of these things, further and harder to distinguish the difference.” (40:43 – C)

• Dirkmaat’s Affirmation:

  “Build a brick wall between you and anyone arguing against the current prophet and the current church’s teachings… prioritize your testimony.” (41:22 – B)

• Conclusion:
  Do not indulge, dabble, or give attention to deceptive or antagonistic sources—no matter the apparent intent or personal connection.

Lighter Moments: The Yoohoo Experiments (46:03–53:18)

• Listener Experimentation: Sheila, a dedicated listener, details her scientific experiments in Fairbanks, Alaska to see if Yoohoo (the chocolate beverage) will freeze in extreme cold.

• Findings:

  • At 0°F, Yoohoo remained liquid for hours; only at –20°F did it freeze into what she called “an ugly brown block.”
  • Boiling Yoohoo thrown into the air at –10°F did not freeze (“fell to the ground unharmed and unfrozen”), unlike boiling water.
  • Sheila confirms the hosts’ longstanding Yoohoo skepticism: “It was terrible. Who drinks this?” (48:39 – C), and draws laughs by asserting, “You wouldn’t serve that to prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.” (51:21 – C)

• Hosts Respond:

  • Applause and laughter; Dirkmaat suggests, tongue-in-cheek, that Yoohoo could double as antifreeze.
  • Jokingly threaten to change the podcast logo to “Joseph drinking a Yoohoo” if the company ever sponsors them (49:07 – B).

Mailbag / Listener Question: Church Succession (53:45–73:44)

The Succession Crisis & “Missouri” Variations

• Missionary Listener’s Question:
  An elder from Missouri (noting the “Missoura” pronunciation) asks about a friend’s claim that Joseph Smith III was the rightful successor to Joseph Smith, based largely on disputed historical testimonies.

• Host Response – Debunking Forgeries and Claims:

  • Dirkmaat points out that the “Thomas Bullock journal entry” cited is a known Mark Hofmann forgery (57:29–58:30 – B).
  • The Temple Lot testimony, especially from witness James Whitehead, is problematic due to contradictory statements about fundamental doctrines (e.g., denial of plural marriage that he previously affirmed).
  • Clarifies that the reliable determinant of succession is not isolated, disputed historical claims, but the doctrine and ordinances Joseph Smith taught and prioritized—especially baptisms for the dead and temple work, which were central in Nauvoo.

  “If you are looking for a church that continues to teach the things that Joseph was teaching all throughout his life… you don’t go very far before you realize that… they are not being taught or accepted by the various other restoration branches.” (61:00 – B)

• Succession by Teachings and Priesthood Keys:

  • The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints alone has continuously practiced temple work as taught by Joseph Smith.
  • Other branches have “sliding scales” of belief and doctrine, but do not maintain temple ordinances Joseph instituted.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “He obviously was fine with what we’d written. He was just expressing frustration. And I think that’s because he has such a… deep, powerful testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith.” (12:24 – B)
• “If we truly understood the importance of the gospel, we would never be weary in well doing. We would run.” (14:13 – B quoting President Holland)
• “You don’t get to claim that you have a testimony of the restoration at the same time you are talking about how the current church is in error.” (43:00 – B)
• “No one believes what we believe. That’s fine. That’s why we send out missionaries.” (34:24 – B)
• “I was expecting something like a B grade Nestle’s chocolate milk, but no… more like an F. F grade chocolate water.” (48:50 – C reading from Sheila)
• “If a source argues against the living prophet, that’s when it’s time to end the conversation.” (35:50 – B)
• “If you have an argument that is a good one, you don't need to lie to make it. So why are you lying to make it?” (39:30 – B)

Key Timestamps

• 03:23 – Reflections on President Holland’s passing
• 07:18 – “Pastor Derek” story
• 09:06 – Lunch with President Holland, box lunch anecdote
• 13:15 – President Holland's final, powerful message to faculty
• 15:11–19:24 – Influential talks: The potato farmers in Belarus & tone in teaching
• 21:12–40:43 – The fake Church email: Dissection and advice on avoiding deception
• 46:03–53:18 – Sheila’s Yoohoo experiments and comedic highlights
• 53:45–73:44 – The succession question: Joseph Smith III, Mark Hofmann forgery, and evidence of priesthood continuity

Tone and Style

The hosts balance academic rigor with playful humor, offering both warmth and direct counsel. Their faith-based approach emphasizes trust in prophetic leadership and careful discernment against deliberate misinformation, while encouraging listeners to find joy and camaraderie in the gospel journey.

This episode encourages listeners to remember faithful leaders like President Holland, scrutinize sources for deception, trust in established Church leadership, and—when in doubt—be wary of both dubious doctrine and chocolate drinks that resist freezing.