S6E3 Gadianton Robbers Part 1

Summary

Podcast Summary: Standard of Truth – S6E3: Gadianton Robbers Part 1 (January 15, 2026)

Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard Leduc
Main Theme:
This episode blends humor and banter with a substantive exploration of Latter-day Saint (LDS) doctrines of the afterlife, focusing on folklore around the Gadianton Robbers' "hauntings" in Southern Utah and the unique LDS view of the spirit world. The episode arises from a listener’s question about claims that Gadianton Robber spirits linger in certain spots near St. George, and uses it as a launching point for a wide-ranging discussion on church history, afterlife theology, and apologetics within the faith.

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1. Podcast Opening & Listener Banter

Email Segment & Football Banter (00:38–15:57)

• The hosts open with light-hearted football commentary and jokes about losing bets, gambling (referencing Pres. Hinckley's counsel), and their personal playoff predictions.
• Dr. Leduc jokes: “Good teams win. Great teams cover.” (02:54)
• They also discuss the concept of live podcast events to raise money for sending Saints to the Kenya temple.

Email Readings & Community Connection (08:11–15:57)

• The hosts read humorous listener emails, many involving ongoing jokes about podcast “rules” for email inclusion (such as being in labor during submission), and requests for podcast merch.
• On childbirth:

  “We’ve gotten so many people that are literally only having children just so they can get on the podcast...” – Dr. Dirkmaat (09:15)

• On merch:

  “We should just start making buttons...like ‘I like Ike.’” – Dr. Leduc (10:21)

• Warm congratulations offered to listeners sharing updates on family and missionary service.

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2. Critical Listener Questions & Apologetics

Latter-day Saint Apologetics: Challenging Questions (21:41–34:24)

• A listener asks for the most “legitimate” or serious arguments against the Church or God in general, and how the faithful might address them.

Key Points:

• Most anti-church arguments are weak and easily debunked, but some philosophical challenges are tougher:
  • The Problem of Evil:

    “There is so much suffering and inequality in the world…there really isn’t a good answer for this.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (24:20)

  • LDS advantages: Unique belief in premortal existence, agency, and eternal progression.
  • The hosts argue ‘suffering’ is the deepest and most persistent challenge for any believer.
• On apologetic priorities:

  “For Latter-day Saints, every person who has ever lived on this earth, knew exactly what they were getting into in terms of coming to a fallen world...” – Dr. Dirkmaat (31:48)

• Dr. Dirkmaat underscores that LDS doctrine—especially teachings on the premortal life and proxy ordinances—addresses suffering and the afterlife with more nuance than most Christian denominations.

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3. Main Topic: Gadianton Robbers, Spirit World & LDS Afterlife Theology

Listener Question: The Gadianton Robbers in Utah Folklore (36:17–41:16)

• A Southern Utah listener asks about the folk belief that Gadianton Robber spirits haunt the region, citing rumored Brigham Young sermons referencing their presence.
• The narrative is woven with local geography humor and speculation about Arizona highway patrol, with playful skepticism about the prevalence of these stories.
• The question is used to bridge into LDS teachings on death and the afterlife.

LDS Teachings on the Spirit World (45:35–64:34)

Key Discussion Points:

• The Spirit World is Nearby

  • LDS doctrine—as reflected in “Gospel Principles,” President Benson, Brigham Young, and Joseph Smith—holds that spirits of the dead remain on or near the earth, not in a distant “heaven” or “hell.”

    “President Brigham Young taught that the post mortal spirit world is on earth around us. Now this is radical...whether you are the spirit who is in a body right now or whether you have been disembodied by death…this earth is not just the mortal realm, it’s the spirit world.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (50:01) “Suppose the Lord should touch your eyes that you might see. Could you then see the spirits? Yes—as plainly as you now see bodies...” – Brigham Young, quoted by Dr. Dirkmaat (51:32)

• Spirits Retain Their Character

  • Echoing the Book of Mormon (“that which is filthy is filthy still”), the hosts explain that who you are in life substantially remains the same after death.

    “You don’t change when you die. This is sometimes a very difficult doctrine for people to accept…” – Dr. Dirkmaat (52:37)

• Afterlife is about Progression & Work

  • Spirits continue God’s work on “the other side.” Righteous spirits are “exalted to a greater or more glorious work,” often engaged in aiding the gospel effort.

    “He had had revelations concerning his departure and had gone to a more important work…” – Joseph Smith, quoted at Judge Adams’ funeral (55:25)

  • Spirits are, at times, aware of and pained by the actions of the living (“they know and understand our thoughts, our feelings and motions, and they are often pained there with”). – Joseph Smith, quoted (55:25)

• Proxy Work & Prison Ministry

  • Joseph Smith is quoted on baptisms for the dead and the fate of those in “spirit prison,” denouncing claims that baptizing for the dead should be limited to those you knew personally:

    “I intend to send men to prison to preach to them...they must receive the Holy Ghost by proxy and be sealed by it…” – Joseph Smith, paraphrased (63:00)

  • LDS doctrine posits that spirits can accept the gospel after death through proxy ordinances on earth.

• Comparison with Broader Christianity

  • Hosts note the lack of explicit afterlife details in the New Testament, the unsatisfying logic of “double judgment” (immediate heaven/hell, then resurrection/judgment), and the Catholic/purgatory workaround.
  • Latter-day Saints’ unique vision of a spirit world allows for preparation, repentance, and progression after death.
  • LDS belief is that the spirit world is temporary, neither the eternal heaven nor hell of traditional Christianity; it is a place of both suffering (for the wicked) and peace (for the righteous), pending resurrection and final judgment.

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4. Tone, Humor & Running Jokes

• The episode is laced with humor, self-deprecation, and recurring inside jokes (especially about podcast "rules," labor, the “Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag,” football, gambling, and Utah geography).
• Quote on the nature of their show:

  “It’s the most man thing. I could have said no epidurals moving forward...” – Dr. Leduc (09:42)

• Self-aware chuckles about their tendency to meander:

  “Occasionally tell me about church history.” – Dr. Leduc, quoting a listener (12:31)

• Closing remarks riff on "hate-listening," live events, and the anti-climactic fears of haunted hiking trails.

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5. Timestamps for Key Segments

• Football Banter, Live Events: 00:38–08:11
• Emails, Merchandise, Labor Rule Jokes: 08:11–15:57
• Legitimate Arguments Against the Church/God: 21:41–34:24
• Listener Folklore: Gadianton Robbers in Southern Utah: 36:17–41:16
• LDS Doctrine of the Spirit World: 45:35–64:34
• Joseph Smith on Proxy Work for the Dead: 63:00–64:34

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Notable Quotes & Attribution

• “For Latter Day Saints, every person who has ever lived on this earth, knew exactly what they were getting into in terms of coming to a fallen world when they chose to follow the Savior’s plan...”
  – Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (31:48)

• “President Brigham Young taught that the post mortal spirit world is on earth around us. Now this is radical.”
  – Dr. Dirkmaat (50:01)

• “Suppose the Lord should touch your eyes that you might see. Could you then see the spirits? Yes—as plainly as you now see bodies…”
  – Brigham Young, recounted by Dr. Dirkmaat (51:32)

• “You don’t change when you die. This is sometimes a very difficult doctrine for people to accept…”
  – Dr. Dirkmaat (52:37)

• “Spirits…are not far from us. And they know and understand our thoughts, our feelings and motions, and they are often pained therewith.”
  – Joseph Smith, quoted (55:25)

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Conclusion & What’s Next

The episode ends by promising a deeper dive into the LDS afterlife—the intermediate spirit world, and the fate of both “righteous” and “wicked” spirits—in Part 2.

“We’re going to talk more about that next time. We’re going to leave everybody wondering whether or not they need to duck off into Littlefield to avoid some gaddy and spirits.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (65:34)

Overall:
A characteristically irreverent-yet-faithful episode, blending inside jokes with in-depth doctrine, and explaining why Latter-day Saint beliefs about the spirit world are both distinctive and theologically rich.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Foreign.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. Really excited to jump into some of the emails that we get and some of the questions that we've received. As soon as we talk about College Football Playoff and the NFL playoffs. About 45 minutes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, maybe we should just do a spin off podcast that's called what We Got Wrong About Football last Week.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I. I was just telling you before, so I'm a Bears fan and I threw my hat down in disgust. Kind of like in like the 20s when they lose a bet on a horse or something, you know, just like, yeah.

Did you rip up your racing form and.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And say, I don't know about this. This is obviously, the mom's involved.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I was so angry on the third quarter interception in the red zone. And I just, I left and I ran errands for my wife at Winco and other places because I didn't want to watch the game anymore. And I was so angry, I came home with five minutes left. I'm like, oh, hey, hey. All right. This looks pretty good.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You didn't watch the epic comeback of your team?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I watched the end of it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I was cheering for the Bears, for you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

In fact, you sent me a text message that was like the two eyes that are, you know, really big and wide open. And I was like, huh, I should probably turn the game back on.

Oh, yeah, I sent that. When the Bears scored their touchdown, I was like, hey, man, there's a chance. So you're saying there's a chance.

It was a lot of fun, the NFL playoffs last weekend. Obviously not on Sunday because we just listened to Tabernacle Choir the whole day.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But only Saturday games for us.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Saturday games were great and they were a lot of fun and they were close and good times had by all.

Well.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We'Ve got the national championship game coming up on Monday. So briefly, who you take to win.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And who do you take to cover?

So, Garrett, as you know, good teams win. Great teams, great teams cover.

Yeah.

And I got to tell you, so the. Now, I didn't know this A friend of mine who's a degenerate sent this to me because I never would have just known this off the top of my head. My wife Becky doesn't believe me that I don't gamble. She's like you. You talk about it way too much. I said, I swear, I don't. I don't do it. I work too hard for the money that I earn. I'm not just. And plus, I also respect President hinckley and his April 2005 conference address on.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's why no one should ever gamble.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They shouldn't. That said, the line opened at seven and a half and quickly moved to eight and a half with Indiana. Like, Indiana is the eight and a half point favorite. There's no. I don't believe that there's any way. That's an insane line where there's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So who do you pick to win straight up?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I think Miami wins.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So you're picking a true.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Not.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Not just a points upset. You're picking a true upset.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I think. I think Miami wins. I think that the level of. So the way that lines are set, the whole point of the line is for, let's say Vegas is a person. Vegas sets the line. Vegas sets the line to get gambling on both sides, to get 50 on both sides. And then they take what's known as, you know, the vig or whatever, or the house gets a certain percentage. If I bet a hundred dollars, then I don't win $200. I win like $180. Or.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This sounds like we're encouraging people to gamble, by the way, but go ahead.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You should never gamble. But I'm saying that's, that's. So that's what the line is. The line is what the public thinks. Well, the public is an idiot. And you need to, you need to fade the public. The recency bias on this for Indiana is insane.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, so you're taking Miami to win straight up. Therefore they cover the points.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But I think Miami wins.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm going to take Indiana to win, but Miami to cover.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's the safer bet. I think that that's the, the safer prediction. You're not betting.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, that Indiana wins by six somehow. Six. I don't know, but six.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, well, that's. So I think that that's the more reasonable. But Indiana is certainly good. But I mean, they're more than good.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Have you talked to. To Signetti lately? He'll let you know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Look him up. Google me.

Yeah, look me up. Look him up.

Look, first of all, I love, I love the constipated look that Signetti has, like, it's the most saving thing ever. He looks really measurable and all right. That's a good. That's a good prediction. I think that yours is more reasonable. I'm fading the public hard, though. So.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So one thing we want to bring up by way of announcement is that Richard and I are considering. And by that, I mean Richard is attempting to force me. I'm never considering.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Never.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But Richard's always attempting to take away my agency. In fact, at some point, we're going.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

To find out that Richard was Lucifer, the premortal life, that he conspired to destroy the agency of man.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Because he would like to set up another live event, probably in Davis county this time, and probably sometime around the end of February, which part of the point for this would be to raise some more funds to get some more people to the temple in Kenya for the next Sweetwater rescue trip. And so if you think that that's something that you would maybe attend, I guess I should tell you not to let us know, because obviously Richard wants to do it more than I do. Live events are terrible for me.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, live events are so much fun. So, first of all, I don't bring anything to anything. So for me, it's just a riot. And the more stuff that goes wrong, the funnier it is. But Garrett works very hard, as does washing machines.

Yes, so do washing machines.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, I mean, part of what we.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Do is we record an episode live with questions that people have essentially just handed me. Right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And so look, when they do that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

With, like, the people that are doing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The magic tricks, and they're like, was this your card? It's because the other person's in on it. It's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's a designed ruse. It doesn't work that way when we're just taking questions from the audience, and I just have to know what the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Answer is, as if I know everything, which I don't. So that. That makes it much more difficult.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right. So for me, the card is always implied referrals. And if that's not your card, well, then you're an idiot, and I never.

Liked you anyway, so you just answer the same thing every time.

Oh, dude.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Speaking of emails, though. So, anyway, marinate on that. We may have another live event here in a couple of months, probably in Layton. Right, Richard and Layton is where you're looking.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Richard doesn't want to have to drive.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Very far to the live event.

I was gonna say, it's at my house. We're gonna do.

We're gonna have a live event. It's right here.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, let's read some of our emails. We've had a couple emails that we need to get to because of promises that we've made.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Promises, promises. This one first in the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag, sponsored by No1. This first email comes to us from Madeline. I realize that having my fourth and final C section does not count to some as being in labor. You're right. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, this is something we never clarified. I mean, this is like Mariology for the Catholic Church. Like, is it dogma?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Is it doctrine? What constitutes having a baby?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We said in labor. And so, you know, she understands that, you know, going to the hospital for a scheduled C section, that does that constitute. So we appreciate her, you know, appreciating the nuance.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We do appreciate that we've actually received quite a few of these emails. We might need to have it be labor, but without an epidural. We might have to take it up.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. We've gotten so many people that are literally only having children just so they can get on the podcast that we're gonna have to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, we're gonna have to say that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You have to have, you know, natural childbirth has to be a home birth, no midwife present. I mean, we're.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We've got.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We're not gonna be able to do every single birthday of the people emailing while they're in labor, but go ahead.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, let's go ahead. This is the most. It's the most man thing. I could have said no epidurals moving forward, but I wanted to ask a very not serious question and see if it could count. Even though my baby was. Was removed like a tumor last night.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So she said it. We did not.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She did not. Or I did not. Or we did not. Now I know why you have me read these. Like. Okay, I said it. Okay, great. Why don't y' all have a pod? Why don't y' all have podcast merch? I'm not the only one who would love to wear a button. A button.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We should.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We should just start making buttons. Could you imagine bring buttons back like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like an.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like we were running for public office.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Like, I like Ike or something like that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Or yeah, Truman for me. I mean, what would we be doing?

Although some of the 19th century presidential campaign slogans were funny.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Rumsey Dumpsey. Rumsey Dumpsey. Colonel Johnson shot Tecumseh.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Now, that's a significant button.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, that button is most of your abdomen much Like a C section.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So that said some absurd things like I only listen to Genrith or a Dandometer T shirt. I'm not so clever with funny things. We did this actually in our last live event, Garrett, where people would send in ideas and they would send in different images and different things. And then we put some of those on T shirts at the live event, and then we sold them from a sizable profit.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I don't think we sold them for profit because we manufactured them so expensively.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, yeah, no, we lost a loss on everything. No, no, you know, we actually lost quite a bit.

We're gonna have to figure out something better for the next live event because.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

In order to raise money for people in Kenya, we're going to actually have to make money.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It was very funny. Yeah. So I surprised you with it, actually. We had some really funny designs and ideas and I printed them up, but we did it kind of last minute, so it was a bit of a rush and lost my shirt, as they would say. But it was. It was fun.

The.

The. The litners to the podcast are the best part of the podcast. It's not even close, actually. They're very, very funny. I'm not so clever with funny sayings, but on more than one occasion, I have wanted nothing more than to wear something ridiculous. So someone would ask me about my weird habit of listening to two middle aged men laugh at each other and occasionally tell me about church history. At the end of the day, we usually don't.

Occasionally tell me about church history.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, boy.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Maddie, Greg. Two tired parents now have four kids and they sent. They sent a pic and mazel tov.

Congratulations.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And we. We're gonna let it slide this time.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, crud. So this next one comes to us from Stacy. My husband accidentally invited the Layton APs over to our house for dinner a few weeks ago, just two days before Elder Abel headed back to Mississippi.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Ah, the. Do you think Elder Abel still listens?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Or do you think the second he got home he was done?

I don't know that he's still a member of the church.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I thought we were saying he was.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Going to be put into a stake presidency as soon as he got home. Oh, no, you're right.

He's coming back to. He's coming back to Utah. I think he's going to the BYU in summer term. I think he starts anyway. All I know is that I promised to take him out to dinner when he comes back to Utah, but man, was I impressed. He randomly started spouting off facts about states Population year admitted to the union. First of all, it's funny somebody from Mississippi talking about when states are admitted to the union.

Yeah, for him he means readmitted. Know what I mean? Know what I mean? That's an insider civil war, secession joke. If you're wondering.

He even went as far as listing capitals and populations of foreign countries. Quick, what's the capital and population of Andorra, Garrett?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I don't know what the population is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But I know the capital of Andorra is Andorra city.

So yes, my son went to Andorra on his mission in Barcelona.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Did you ask him how many people were there?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I did not. We'll get the crack research down, but Elder Abel was only off by 8,000. Now if the number of people that are there are 10,000, that's actually not very impressive of a number.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, we got to have a percentage.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He was off.

By the way, there was something going just quickly back to football. I forgot to mention the stat. I told you that I was going to mention this to you. So the average age of the offense for the Green Bay packers is 24.8. That's the average age of the starter offensive unit. Guess what the average age for Indiana is for the starters.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Team 21, 23.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They're all buried.

Yep. Yep. So the whole team is 22 and a half. And that's actually one of the secrets to Indiana. It's an old BYU trick, you know.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Have people that are veterans that, that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Know the game who played a long time.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I might have even mentioned that old BYU trick also on this podcast already and forgot that I had already mentioned that. But they're off by about a year and a half. The difference between the packers and them. So it's, it's one of those things where they go after the three star athletes. Sure were three stars four years ago and now they're, now they're men with, you know, they're plumbers with part time jobs.

They're apprentice electricians already.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But back to Andorra, I would have to say my guess is it's at least, it's. There's no way there's more than 100,000 people there. So I would say somewhere under a hundred thousand probably.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, so somewhere under a hundred thousand. Can you have a number?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, we'll say 95,000. I don't know, it's. There's no way it's that many. It's teeny mountains.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

89,000. Oh, look at that.

How about that?

So elder Abel can, can, you know, he was off by 8,000. You were off by six.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So Elder Abel is going back to Mississippi where my understanding of the church there is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He's probably already an area authority, given the number of active members there. So he's going to be doing fine.

Yes, he is. Is that the. Wait, hold on. So is that the secret stuff you cover in premium content? That is funny. We usually talk about Andorra in the premium, but here we're giving it away for free.

We're just giving away. This is the, this is the pick.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

For free Andorra population.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You did, you did do a. Condemned to repeat it last week. So you broke out away from it. We talked, we talked about Gouverneur Morris. Morris. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And arguments about having lifetime appointments to the Senate.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, it was very exciting and riveting.

I couldn't put it down.

I have been a litner from, from back when we were called listeners, I. E. When Richard could kind of read. That's. That's true.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Takes a shot at you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But it's, it's, it's, it's not just the dyslexia and it's also the vision, Garrett. And anyway, but do you know how many months of planning it takes to have a baby? I feel like I'm aware of that. I finally convinced my husband that I needed to get my email read. But since that time, the get your email read criteria has changed for the stricter, which is. Well, but you just loosen things up with the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, we're getting soft now.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You force me into old natural pioneer style kind of.

I pray that that's not true.

I pray, oh, scrutiny pioneer style kind of birth. But I'm here for the glory. So here are my questions. She sent pictures and she's lovely and the baby's lovely and I'm so happy. Number one, tell me about the calling of midwife.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Let's read her PS's first and then we'll do the questions.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, we'll come back to it. PS, this is kid number five. And my wife has given birth 100% naturally, most every time. As the husband, I'd encourage others to give it a try because it's much greater spiritual bonding experience. The last couple kids, we haven't pre learned the gender either, which has been fun.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm not going to advertise that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm not going to tell anyone to not get pain medication.

So first of all, I often say, look, I'm. I often say, look, I'm not a pioneer. When I go in to have a tooth drilled, I'm like, give me the Nitrous. I'm not trying to be anybody's hero. I want.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, I go in for, like, X.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Rays at the dentist, and I'm like, I need.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, I'm going to need to be knocked out. I'm going to need you to just. I need to be. I need to be completely under. We're just having you settle your co Pay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Nope.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I need to be asleep.

I want to see an anesthesiologist right now, by the way, as it relates to that. P.S. i don't remember if I've shared this or not on the air, but there's a point of contention between myself and my wife where when we went to go have Max, our fourth child.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The bracelet did not match what Becky said.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I remember this.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. You've told this story that she couldn't.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Get the meds because she couldn't get.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The epidural because when I went to check her in, she's claiming that I got her birthday wrong, and I insisted.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Do you think it's more likely that she got her own birthday wrong or that you got it wrong?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, I was in the room when she said her birthday, and she got her birthday right, and the bracelet that they were trying to put on her said October. But again, I stand by this. If I have brought it up, I should bring it up literally every time, because in this particular case, her birthday is two weeks after my birthday, in the same month as my birthday.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And this, folks, has been our segment on how to lose arguments for the rest of your marriage by Richard Leduc, PPS at church.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I invited the elders over to my house, not realizing they were the illustrious APs. As Elder Abel was wowing us with church history facts, it dawned on us I was beholding a Christie's Corner rock star. And I. And I said, as did Nathaniel of old, rabbi, thou art an ap.

That's a good line. Good job.

Elders Abel and Candia said that they'll cherish the time they got to spend with you. Richard, you truly left a huge impression on both of them. I was fans of both of them. The missionaries in the Layton Mission are just some of the greatest ever. I do like the idea that Elder Abel was pretending like he knew a bunch about church history. Like what he did to ascend to the heights of AP on his mission by having great district meetings and zone meetings where he just said stuff that Garrett said.

Yeah, he just repeated it. Yeah, it was. It was a great play.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Let's read her second question first. Okay, well, let's just read your second one.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, Only the second question. I technically already read the first one about midwife, but it's fine. Number two, you've been able to debunk many arguments against the church. I now know which ones I can shrug off as garbage. However, what are the top two or three arguments? Legitimate arguments against the veracity of the church or God in general. And how do you faithfully combat those arguments? I don't know that he's necessarily saying, hey, I know there's some really good stuff that proves us wrong. I think the point that is trying to be made here is, hey, what are arguments that are maybe harder to defend because they're more complex or I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt. I don't know what your thoughts are on that, Garrett.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I mean, I don't think Stacy's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Like, I'm getting ready to leave the church and I need you to give me the reasons. I'm going to tell my bishop.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I don't think that's Stacey's plan. Right. So, I mean all of the arguments against faith are all.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

To a greater.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Or lesser extent, garbage, as you put it in that regard. Now there are certainly some arguments that are at least better than others. Right. So how in the world did Joseph Smith write the Book of Mormon? He copied it word for word from the late war, even though he clearly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Didn'T copy it word for word from the late war is an example of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

A terrible, stupid argument.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And so, I mean, one way that you could go about this is by looking at what non Latter day Saint academics, how they view some of these things, but frankly a lot of them, they don't really even engage in it because it's, it's not an academic position to argue against miraculous things. I do think we've covered on this program before. This program, my goodness, it makes it sound like we like actually have a show and then.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, I know you may sound like it's like a PBS thing or something.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know, program welcomed to the McLaughlin Hour Group.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Did you ever watch that when.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You were a kid on pbs?

I was aware of it. I was aware of its existence. Of course you did. Yeah, sure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What was the most lively thing on pbs?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He was very loud, very, very assertive of his ideas. And then they started making fun of it on Saturday Night Live and that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Just made it even better.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, but I think the biggest argument, really, that's the most persuasive and frankly, I don't think any of these are very persuasive. It does come to the fact that there is so much suffering and inequality in the world. And we've talked about this a lot because there really isn't a good answer for this. And, you know, the standard Christian answer is, well, because Adam and Eve fell and that's why everything's terrible. Many moons ago, many, I mean, decades ago, when we were on the premium side of the content doing Joseph Smith and the Restoration, we had a conversation about the angel Moroni visiting. I don't know if you remember this, Richard. You were asleep or trying to get.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

In your last, your last parlay bet to your, to your bookie while we were talking about it.

Well, so refresh my memory. Moroni came. So Moroni came, you say?

Yes, yes. There's this angel guy. His name is Maroney.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We talked about how, you know, one of the things that is the biggest argument against the. Well, it's just all Adam and Eve's fault is the fact that Christians all believe that angels are created beings out of nothing.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And we talked about in that episode about how there's actually an argument among Christian theologians and there has been about when exactly angels were created because they're not mentioned in the creation. But they, of course, had to be created because Christians believe everything's created out of nothing. You know, they had to be created after the heavens were created, because otherwise where would they be? Because again, a Christian believes that in the beginning, there wasn't even time and space. There was just God. Nothing existed but God. And then God created time and space and created the earth and created the animals and created the plants and then created people. So, so for your standard Christian, angels are created beings that are created out of nothing. And yet we know, Christians know that these angels, one of them became Satan and rebelled against God. Well, the question we asked on that episode was where exactly was Lucifer's apple? Right. If we're going to blame all of the wickedness on earth on the fact that Adam and Eve made the mistake and ate the apple, and now the world's condemned and we're all condemned, and that's why everything's so terrible. That doesn't really work for the heavenly spear, does it? How is it that God created evil angels and. And again, there is no, there's no apple eating portion of this. So you don't get to say, no, God created everything perfectly. But then, Karn Sarnet, Adam and Eve love apples. And the next thing you know, we're all gonna burn in hell for angels. God created Them out of nothing, as beings closer to God, as heavenly beings that were never intended to be human. And yet they rebelled and God had to know that they were going to rebel when God created them. So I've always thought the biggest, the best argument against belief isn't against our church because frankly, our church answers way more questions than standard Christianity answers. It's really a question of why are things so terrible? Why are there evil angels? Why would a good God create out of nothing Satan when God already knew that Satan would fall? Now, for Latter Day Saints, that question is actually a little nuanced for us because God didn't create Lucifer out of nothing, just like he didn't create Adam and Eve out of nothing. And so I, I do think that that's the argument that holds the most sway, is people seeing how horrible the earth is and saying, well, if God is all powerful and God is all good, then what is going on around here? But I think that that requires us to come to certain terms, and that is that God apparently only has all of the powers that actually exist. I'm of the belief that when Jesus says, father, if thou be willing, let this cup pass from me. If there was any other way to save the world, the Father would have done that. He did not arbitrarily have his son suffer. It was the only way. That is the hardest thing for a believer to come to terms with.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Knowing how great and good that God is and seeing so much violence in the world and evil. And it's not all attributed to. It's just not all attributed to agency. People who are born with cancers, people who are, you know, killed by natural disasters. I mean, agency gets us part of the way, but it doesn't get us all the way. Now, I say that that's the best argument, at least the argument that would resonate the most with me. Because if God is all good and God is all powerful, then can't God make this world better? And if God can't, then he must not be classically all powerful. And that's why you have to just. You have to just love the doctrine of the premortal life. The fact that we chose to come to this fallen world, it really is the deciding factor in understanding all of the suffering that's all around us. For everyone else, God put them in the situation that they're in. They didn't ask to be born. They didn't ask to be created. God created them out of nothing at the moment they were conceived. For Latter Day Saints, every person who has ever lived on this earth, knew exactly what they were getting into in terms of coming to a fallen world when they chose to follow the Savior's plan, when they chose to follow the Father's plan. And so I think that those are the arguments that hold the most weight. Other arguments, you know, what can be persuasive for a time, but ultimately, you know, does God exist? And is God who we think he is? And that's why it's so great to have the testimony and witnesses of people like Joseph Smith. How do we know that God and Jesus are real? Because Joseph Smith saw and talked to them a dozen times. How do we know that this isn't just a bedtime story? Well, because Joseph wasn't alone. Joseph's with other people when he has those visitations. Other things, you know, you, you could ask questions like why would God allow something as, as horrific as say, the Holocaust? And, and those are much harder to answer. And we have to just trust that when God promises that all of our sufferings will be made up to us in the next life, that somehow, even those horrific, horrific, unspeakable injustices will somehow be made right by the atonement of Christ. So I'm not probably the right person to ask. I guess I'm not self aware enough because when it comes to arguments people make, you know, they're usually very, very weak and they're usually very, very particular. Well, hey, if this wife who was married to Brigham Young decided that she wasn't happy, that proves that the church is false. That's pretty much a non sequitur, right? I mean, we all know people that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Are unhappy in their various states of life.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It doesn't prove or disprove the things I believe one way or the other. And so that's what I would say. I think suffering is the great question of humanity. And that's why for me, if I were to ever stop believing that the church was true, which I wouldn't, but if I ever did, my atheism would follow very quickly after. Because if I can't believe in a God who actually loves everyone and that there's a plan whereby we can become like God, well then there's no point in believing anyway. You know, luckily a Calvinist would say, well, God hadn't chosen you to be saved, so it doesn't really matter. You were going to burn in hell either way. So yeah, I mean there's, there's that. But great question. And it kind of leads into what our last email is, which will be the topic of the Balance of our conversation today.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Dear Dr. Leduc and Pastor Derek, as.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

A longtime litner, we've gotta, we've gotta nip that in the bud right now.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, which was the site where you were asked?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was at the Garden Tomb.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, Garden Tomb.

At the Garden Tomb in Israel, the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Evangelical Christian group that owns and runs that site. The pastor who was giving us a lovely tour, and it's very peppered with. You have to accept Jesus. You're only saved by faith. I mean, it is, it's like being handed the sinner's prayer pamphlet, you know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It is very much.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He simply assumed a. That our group was Christians, which, I mean, that's a safe bet because, you know, Christians want to see the tomb. Right. But that they were being led not by a tour guide, but by a pastor. Me, who he. I introduced myself, I said, hi, my name is Garrett Dirkmaat. And he said, hi, Derek, Good to have you, Pastor. And then he proceeded to refer to me as Pastor Derek for the next 45 minutes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And you know, I like Pastor Derek.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's kind of like after the, after the, the Dirk Moss story. After someone said your name incorrectly publicly to lots of other people after they've done it twice.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, you kind of. That's your name.

[Narrator]

Really?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, yeah. It's a jerk move at that point to try to correct them because it, it's, it's just unfair. Yeah, you have to just roll with it. Your name is now Derek. You know, so anyway, so that's, that's what he's referring to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

As a longtime litter. And happy to say that my last two emails were read on the podcast.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, what are we doing reading this. This guy?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, it's a good, it's a good question.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This guy stealing. Stealing from everyone else?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, no, Darren writes good questions. Apparently that tickle the fancy. You see, I am currently in labor. However, my wife says it's just my 250 pound belly hanging over my belt buckle. I would get an epidural if I was him. I'm also currently serving in the St. George Santa Clara Mission, so I want free content. However, my wife says we actually live in Santa Clara. And, and lastly, I'm the one who drives from St. George shuttle throwing all the passengers into the gorge who want to gamble and mesquite. However, I do allow those who are only doing sports betting to use Richard's betting odds to arrive safely to the casino.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's funny.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That is funny. Okay, for the real reason I'm writing, I've lived in Southern Utah now for about 13 years. And I've been told the same story multiple times with different twists. Mainly the location, which is Brigham Young supposedly gave a talk down here and said the Gadian robbers still infest this area. I've been told they're in the gorge in Leeds. In Apple Valley. Well, that's Apple Valley and in the mountains of Arizona just south of St. George. First off, I don't believe in afterlife hauntings, Satan and his followers with a question mark. But those who have lived shouldn't be in LDS hell for a while. Or shouldn't they be in LDS hell for a while if they haven't repented already. So can you tell me what the source may actually be from? So the next time someone says be safe out there, gaddy at and robbers are all over the place out there. And then I can either tell them the truth or make sure that I take my ghostbuster trap while I'm hiking the desert. Thanks for all you do.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

See, this is a great question in the. In the. In part because.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is this really that common?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, so. So every time he goes out to go hiking, which we're to believe is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Apparently a lot of the time, just.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Constantly hiking, that everyone's like, oh, be careful.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Him gaddy Anton robbers up there. That. That's what's going on.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

My guess. My guess is anytime he's in Apple Valley or the gorge or in Leeds, that's. That's a concern.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, when you're in the mountains between the Arizona mountains just south of St. George, before you get into Mesquite. Yeah. I don't know that there's ghosts haunting those mountains, but I believe there are.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But there's ghosts haunting those mountains. Yeah, for sure.

That.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That has to be one of the most terrible places in the world. Does anyone live there?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, they do not.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I always wonder where does that Arizona highway patrolman live who pulls.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You're not talking about the stretch where there's a church just off the highway?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Isn't that also in Nevada? That's already when you get to Nevada.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I think it's. I think it's on the Arizona side. Hold on. I'm going to get to the bottom of this.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, we need to figure this out. I need to know where the Arizona state trooper lives that patrols that teeny little stretch because he's there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So do you like, get a variance where he can live in St. George?

It's the same. It's the same one that's in Manaway.

He's in Those double duty. He's in Manaway up on the way to Logan, and then he's on that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Little stretch just right there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Who don't live in Utah. I was going to say Utah geography.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

If you drive south from Utah to Las Vegas, the way that the interstate system works, you very briefly cross into.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The very, very, very edge corner of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Arizona before you re enter Nevada on the way to Las Vegas, you go to Mesquite and then to Las Vegas. But you are in Arizona for a little bit of time. So if you're in St. George, you have to drive through Arizona to get to Las Vegas. And it is a very desert rocky.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Just.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'd be surprised if the Roadrunner lived there. I mean, it's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It is not.

Yeah, yeah. Garrett Littlefield. There's a church in Littlefield, Arizona, in that little corner.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Before you get into. To Mesquite, it's a lovely area.

So.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So the highway patrolman lives in Littlefield.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He lives in Littlefield. You've got the Littlefield ward, the Scenic Ward. It's, it's. It's called the Scenic Ward and then the Valley View ward. So, yeah, it's very exciting. Three wards.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, we're gonna have to plan an outing to Littlefield. I'm sure we have thousands and thousands of listeners in Littlefield, Arizona.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I think we need to take back the negative things we said about it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm sure Littlefield's fine.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm talking about the interstate. That stretch is. It is foreboding. It does make you wonder how anyone decided to wander down to where Las Vegas is as you go drive through that desert.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So. Yeah, so good question. Someone's actually asked this before. Two other times people have brought this up. So this must be some folklore that really kind of circulates. And it really. The reason why I think it's a good question is it leads into a larger topic that I want to talk about. And as I said, it kind of relates to our ladies in labor in the sense that the Latter Day Saints have a very unique understanding of what happens after you die. We've talked about this before, that for Christians, especially Protestant Christians, who believe that if it isn't in the Bible, you can't teach it as doctrine. There is surprisingly little that is said in the New Testament about where you go immediately when you die. Now, most Protestants simply say you immediately go to heaven or hell. The problem with that is they also know that there's going to be a resurrection and there's going to be a great and last Judgment day. So if I die, and let's say I die and I'm not, you know, I haven't accepted Jesus properly. And by that I mean the, the homoousion Jesus, not the homoiusion Jesus that ends up getting you condemned to hell forever. But if you accept the Trinitarian Jesus the right way, that if you've accepted him, you immediately go to the presence of God. And so usually people will call that heaven, right? And they'll cite the thief on the cross, right? You know, Jesus says to him today, thou shalt be with me in paradise. It's also the same argument they make primarily against Catholics, but also against Latter Day Saints. Whenever we say baptism is essential for salvation because they say, no, it can't be because the thief on the cross went to paradise and therefore you go immediately to heaven and it doesn't matter whether or not you're baptized. But it is weird, right? Because so let's say I don't have faith in Jesus. Well, what happens? Well, I go immediately to hell. Well, there's only two places, heaven and hell. And if I immediately go to them when I die, then the resurrection becomes much, much more difficult to explain, right? So I'm already judged because I already went to heaven or hell. And then at some point during the resurrection, I'm either thrown up out of hell or I'm cast down out of heaven to come back and get my body to stand for a final judgment where I'm rendered to go back to heaven or hell. But I was like literally already there. And the only difference is I now have my body. So you can see how that becomes pretty convoluted. Catholics mitigate this a little bit by arguing for the state of purgatory, right? That most spirits are going to go to this intermediary state of purgatory, believing spirits because they have venial sins that need to be purged out of them before they can go to heaven. But it still doesn't render the problem of sending the evil spirits to hell, right? The evil spirits are going to hell and then they eventually are going to get resurrected so they can go back to hell. And so what you really got going on is you've got two judgments. I'm going immediately to heaven or hell, but then I'm getting pulled out. I mean, I can only imagine that when you're in hell and they haul you out of hell to give you your body back, it's like a nice five minute break, you know, I mean it's a. Oh boy, I was just.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

About to be turned on the spit for the thousandth time. This is nice. This is air conditioned.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This is nice. But our understanding of what happens when you die is very different because our understanding of who we are as spirit children of Heavenly Father and our understanding of what the purpose of this life.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is so incredibly different than traditional Christianity. So let's start with Now. It's going to take a while to answer this question. Now this is going to come as a surprise to our listeners and to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Richard, but you'll be able to fit this in in the next 15 minutes though.

How would you feel if there was a gaddy hit in part two?

I think, I think Gaddy Ant and Robbers, part one and part two. I think that that plays well.

What if we.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We need to just throw random politicians.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Names in there too, just to get.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

People to listen out of anger or. Or cheering?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, we should do that. Like do a maduro one.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Do you think it's easier to get people to hate listen or to get.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

People to listen because they think they're.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Cheering us on with our podcast?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hate Listen.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, hate listen. That's what I was going to say.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We're a hate listen podcast. Like, I don't want to listen to it, but if I'm on my mission and I have nothing better to do, then I.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Which is why Elder Abel's not listening anymore.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The second he got home, he was like taking that monkey off his back. He was ready. He was ready to move on with life.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So Latter Day Saints, let me go to just the. Let's go to the Gospel principles book just to show everyone that while we'll be reading some things that you may not have heard before, we're going to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Start off with what the church is clearly teaching.

So I will say I was the Gospel principles teacher back when they had that as a more common Sunday school class for new members and things. And I remember, I'm like, wait, we're saying all this in the Gospel principles class?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I remember on my mission.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Worried as we got near the end of the Gospel principle chapters with a new member.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Who was not happy when they realized that we were saying that God was once a man.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Gospel principles. The end of Gospel principles is fire.

No, the end of Gospel principles is it might as well be Brigham Young out, you know, letting people know what's going on.

I mean, yeah, no, I was surprised that chapter 42 is just the King Follett sermon.

It was Garrett's door approach on his mission. You think God was God from all eternity? I'll refute that idea.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Would you guys like a drink Market?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Elder Rigdon I'm just quoting it, you know, just, just, just shouting at people.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But if you go to the gospel principles class, It provides us some ideas that are very different than the world around us. Heavenly Father prepared a plan for our salvation. As part of this plan, he sent us from his presence to live on earth and receive mortal bodies of flesh and blood. Eventually our mortal bodies will die and our spirits will go to the spirit world. Okay, so this is our first introduction of this term, the spirit world. The spirit world is a place of waiting, working, learning and for the righteous resting from care and sorrow. Our spirits will live there until we're ready for our resurrection. Then our mortal bodies will once again more unite with our spirits will once more unite with our spirit. I just threw again in there for some reason I don't know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And we'll receive a degree of glory which you've prepared.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Many people have wondered what the spirit world is like. The scriptures and latter day prophets have given us information about the spirit world. So this is very key and this is key to the question that was asked. Where is the post mortal spirit world? Latter day prophets have said that the spirits of those who have died are not far from us. President Ezra Taft Benson said sometimes the veil between this life and the life beyond becomes very thin. Our loved ones who have passed over are not far from us. Now actually Joseph Smith says something very similar. So President Benson, you know, probably quoting Joseph Smith. I mean hard to believe that President.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Benson would quote Joseph Smith. But I think President Benson felt okay about Joseph Smith and just was willing to quote him.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

President Brigham Young taught that the post mortal spirit world is on earth around us. Now this is radical. Okay, so, so one thing that we believe is that earth is the habitation of spirits. And whether you are the spirit who is in a body right now or whether you have been disembodied by death in some way, this earth is not just the mortal realm, it's the spirit world. Now again, I'm going to stick with some accepted sources before I start reading.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Some other sources because I want everyone to know. You follow the prophets, you follow what the church says.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

If you go to the Brigham Young, the teachings of the Prophet's Manual, the Brigham Young Manual, where they elaborate on this from Brigham Young. When you lay down this tabernacle, where are you going? Into the spirit world. The wicked spirits that leave here go into the spirit world.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Are they wicked there?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes. When the spirits leave their bodies, they are Prepared then to see, hear, and understand spiritual things. Can you see spirits in this room?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Suppose the Lord should touch your eyes that you might see. Could you then see the spirits? Yes. As plainly as you now see bodies, as did the servant of Elisha, if the Lord would permit it, and it was his will that it should be done, you could see the spirits that have departed from this world as plainly as you now see bodies with your natural eyes. So Brigham Young is, you know, to the question of, is this really the case that, you know, spirits of departed people could be around? I think this is a definitive yes, that the spirit world is all around us. Now, there's actually two problems with that, right. Because Brigham Young is stating that the people that are wicked who die, it's almost like the Book of Mormon says.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That they remain in the state that they died in. Right? That that which is filthy is filthy still.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You don't change when you die. This is a. This is sometimes a very difficult doctrine for people to accept. What I want to believe is that when I die, I will magically have all of the commitment to the gospel and sacrifice and love of my fellow.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Man that I have refused to cultivate here. Right. I have desperately refrained from being kind to others. I have desperately been selfish.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I have desperately thought about myself and that when I die, there's, like, this hope that there's some kind of switch that's flicked and selfish mean Garrett suddenly becomes the man I always wished I.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That'S not how at least Brigham Young and other prophets describe it. That our body really is just the covering of our spirit. Who you are is. Is who you are. Now, there are certainly aspects of your personality that are affected by having a physical body. I'm praying that I don't have the same desperate, desperate, desperate desire for a nap in the next world that I have all the time right now. In fact, right now, I would like.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

To take a nap. I would like to say, richard, we're gonna pause this for a half hour, and you wake me up and we'll pick it back up.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Reminds me of a Kevin James skit where he talks about how, you know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

When you're a big guy, you don't need an excuse to sweat. You sweat over everything. Everything's an exertion for you. People will be like. They'll walk in the room, they'll see you sweating. They'll be like, hey, did you just.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like, run somewhere or something?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And he's like, no, I just peeled an orange half hour ago. What's up? You know, so I feel like, you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Know, so the things that cause us to give in to physical appetites that come from our bodies, well, obviously those things aren't going to be there, but, you know, the cultivation of the things of righteousness, they are. And so let's drop back a little bit into some of Joseph Smith's teachings. And this is the reason why I said President Benson was kind of quoting Joseph. Joseph Smith will say at the funeral of his good friend Judge Adams.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Had had revelations concerning his departure and had gone to a more important work. So this idea that on the other side there's work to do and that it's somehow even more important than here, this is something that's being taught even by Joseph early on, what was that work of opening a more effectual door for the dead? The spirits of the just are exalted to a greater or more glorious work. Hence they are blessed in departing hands enveloped in flaming fire. They are not far from us. See, that was the quote from President Benson, that they're not far from us. They are not far from us. And they know and understand our thoughts, our feelings and motions, and they are often pained there with. Now, that boy, that is. I have had the thought multiple times in my life. My. My dad passed away, you know, more than a decade ago, and I have multiple times thought to myself, man, my dad, he. He must be embarrassed by how I just acted. He must be sitting there going, come on, Garrett, you know, this stuff is true. Why are you acting like that? And, you know, Joseph really kind of makes it seem that to be the case that those spirits that depart, they interact with us, they know us. In fact, it's exactly what John Taylor says about Joseph Smith himself. He says that Joseph Smith knows what the saints are doing, you know, after he's passed away, that he's a friend of Brigham Young, that he's a friend of this people, and that he's most interested in the work of the kingdom. And again, I think we like to think of death as a massive change. But here, what Joseph is saying is the change is, if you're a righteous person, you are exalted with some kind of glory immediately after you die, and immediately begin the work of trying to spread the gospel on the other side. But there's some. There's some kind of rest and peace and happiness that comes with it. This is obviously all caught up in what Joseph has to say about. About work for the dead. Joseph will say In a sermon, May 12, 1844, he will talk about how The Gospel has to be preached everywhere. And then says that in my Father's kingdom are many kingdoms. I go to prepare a kingdom for you, that the exaltation that I receive, you may receive also. So he's paraphrasing what Jesus says there. The sectarians have no charity for me. Now what he means by sectarians, he means, you know, the ardent Baptist preacher and the, the Methodist preacher, those people that are constantly condemning him to hell. I have to say they announced where the temple was going to be built in Spanish Fork and fairly close to where I live. And the amount of vitriol on those news announcements were just ridiculous. Just, just, just ridiculously over the top. One guy who's a chaplain, so. Which means he was trained not to act like this, but decided, whatever, I'm off the clock. Got on and posted a response to the fact that the temple location had been announced with a quote from Isaiah about how everyone worships false idols and false gods in the land. I don't know why it made me so mad, because I was like, look, we have a chaplain training program at byu. I work with these guys all the time. I've worked with other non Latter Day Saint chaplains and I know that they're trained to show respect for other religions. No one forced this dude to get on and call all Mormons in existence idol worshipers.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But, but if someone did, we apologize to him.

Yeah, yeah, sorry. Oh, yeah, I didn't check that. The question above was, could someone please tell all these Mormons that they're going to burn in hell because they worship idols?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And the funny part was, you know, you want to talk about proof texting the Bible, so you're going to just quote Isaiah saying that it's a bunch of idol worship. Well, where did Isaiah worship? Oh, in a, in a temple. Okay, so clearly Isaiah is not saying anyone who worships in a temple is an idol worshiper because that's where Isaiah worships. And you know that this, this sense of lack of charity. If they announced a Baptist church in my neighborhood, I would not on the Facebook page say, well, that's great, but.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Maybe if you guys can figure out how to get some saving ordinances, you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Won'T burn in our temporary hell. I wouldn't do that. I would say, praise God, there's more people that are going to be thinking about Jesus instead of about themselves if you're going to say anything at all. That's incredible that there's more. Any person going to any house of worship in this day and age. Thank goodness because at least for a second, they're thinking about anything that isn't themselves.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so look, I know that we're out of time and you might want to be. This is my subtle way of wrapping it up. But I will say one of the things that in fairness to the chaplain Garrett, at the time of Isaiah, the false gods that they were worshiping would have been, you know, Babylonian gods, you know, and Nebo was Bel's son and was a Babylonian God. And it's the Nebo school district that you're in. So perhaps that's what he meant.

You know what?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's exactly what he meant. He was like, why would you name.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Your school district Nebo if you weren't.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Looking to worship Ashtaroth?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We all know what you were doing. We all know what you were doing. Again, but wasn't that mitigated to a point for naming a place? Scipio.

The best names.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

All right, well, we are out of time.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Let me finish this Joseph Smith quote.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But Joseph said, the sectarians have no charity for me, but I have for them. I intend to send men to prison to preach to them. And this is all on the principle of entering in by water in the spirit. Then you must not only be baptized for them, they must receive the Holy Ghost by proxy and be sealed by it under the day of their redemption as all other ordinances by proxy. All persons who've been baptized and have received the Holy Ghost may be baptized for their ancestors or near relatives. God has administrators in the eternal world to release those spirits from prison. By the way, this talk from Joseph Smith is one of the reasons why I am so outraged by the. The Denver Snuffer apostasy in which he claims the only people that you can perform baptisms for the dead for are people that you personally knew in this life personally and that you personally knew would have accepted the gospel but didn't personally. Yeah, that's why Joseph Smith used the term ancestors. Because I know all of my ancestors personally. Clearly. Clearly. I just. All the way back to Captain Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And his one acre. We know him. We know him exactly what he's doing.

First of all, he was not. He was French. He was not a captain. That's first of all.

Maybe he was a lieutenant.

I don't know. I feel like he was a private Leduc.

He was a non calm duke.

But.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

God has administrators in the eternal world. So that's the spirits that have departed to release those spirits from prison, the ordinances being administered by proxy. Upon them, the law is fulfilled. You must obtain promises for them and rise with the same size shaped body. So that's so then he goes on to talk about the resurrection and that's a little beyond our scope. And like we said, we're out of time. But what I want you to think about is the fact that Latter Day Saints believe that there is this temporary place that is not heaven, although it is great and glorious for the righteous. And it is not the Protestant Catholic version of eternal burning in hell either, even though it is a place of suffering for those who are wicked. And we're going to talk more about that next time. We're going to leave everybody wondering whether or not they need to duck off into Littlefield to avoid some gaddy and spirits. That's how we want everybody. We want everybody terrified.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And that's why this podcast exists.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So thank you so much for joining us.

[Narrator]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.