S6E4 Gadianton Robbers Part 2 (the Spirit World)

Summary

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Standard of Truth Podcast: S6E4 - Gadianton Robbers Part 2 (The Spirit World)

Release Date: January 22, 2026
Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat (with Dr. Richard Leduc)
Theme: Helping Latter-Day Saints better understand their history and increase faith.

Episode Overview

This episode of "Standard of Truth" explores the Latter-day Saint doctrine of the spirit world, the fate of the dead, and how these teachings contrast with other Christian perspectives. Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc use humor and deep dives into historical sources, including the teachings of Joseph Smith, to analyze why Latter-day Saint theology on the afterlife is distinct and, in their view, powerfully inclusive. Though framed as a continuation of a series on the Gadianton Robbers, much of the episode focuses on doctrine, listener questions, and the conceptual challenges of understanding the spirit world.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

A. Opening Banter & Listener Engagement (00:38–13:41)

• Sports Recap and Humor:
  The hosts begin with playful banter about sports betting, failed predictions, and comedic sketches, establishing a lighthearted, friendly tone.

  • Memorable: Fake "Pay Horns Picks" segment, joking about their notoriously bad sports picks.

• Live Event Announcements:
  Discussion about upcoming live podcast events in Layton, Utah, to raise money for Sweetwater Rescue and Latter-day Saints in Kenya.

  • Dr. Dirkmaat: “We are going to do a live event. This one's going to be a little different… a considerable amount of that money in donations [will go] to Saints of the Church in Kenya.” (10:44)
  • Event will have limited seats, higher ticket prices ($25), and will also support missionary and temple initiatives.

• Mailbag & Listener Stories:
  Readings of several listener emails, including updates from a missionary (“Elder Abel”) in Mississippi, and a listener’s anecdote about local legends of Gadianton robbers being invoked to scare off mischievous teens.

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B. Transition to the Spirit World Doctrine (18:58–19:43)

• Listener Curiosity:
  The popularity of the Gadianton robbers as a cultural story leads into greater audience interest in the doctrine of the spirit world and the afterlife from an LDS perspective.

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C. Main Content: The Spirit World, Salvation, and Comparative Theology (19:43–66:05)

1. Christian Views on the Spirit World & “Soul Sleep”

• Quoting R.C. Sproul:
  Dr. Dirkmaat cites the Calvinist theologian’s position on what happens immediately after death, focusing on the thief on the cross (Luke 23:43) as a central Protestant prooftext for immediate heaven or hell.

  • R.C. Sproul (quoted by Dr. Dirkmaat at 21:46):
    “...Jesus gave his personal assurance of salvation to the thief, saying, I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise.”

• Contradictions with Resurrection Doctrine:
  Discussion of theological difficulties Protestants face if souls go immediately to heaven or hell, since resurrection and final judgment are still future.

  • Dr. Dirkmaat (22:45): “If I immediately go to heaven, or I immediately go to hell, then what happens when I am resurrected?”

• “Soul Sleep” Rebuttal and Punctuation Debate:
  The “soul sleep” idea (that the dead are unconscious until resurrection) is dismissed by both Sproul and the hosts. They mock over-literal readings and punctuation-based arguments in the Greek.

  • Dr. Dirkmaat (26:13): “That is honestly a pretty bad argument, right? ... Jesus just like ‘Hey, I’m going to tell you something right now. You’re going to go with me to paradise, but not like today to paradise.’”

2. LDS Distinctives: Joseph Smith's Revelations

• Joseph Smith’s Reinterpretation:
  Dr. Dirkmaat reads from Joseph Smith’s 1843 discourse (Wilford Woodruff's journal), where Smith asserts that “paradise” and “hell” in the Bible really refer to areas in the spirit world, not heaven and hell per se.

  • Joseph Smith, quoted by Dr. Dirkmaat (38:22):
    “Paradise is a modern word. It does not answer to at all to the original that Jesus made use of... It was this day, I will be with thee in the world of spirits and will teach thee or answer thy inquiries.”

• Baptism for the Dead:
  Joseph Smith emphasizes the necessity and biblical foundation of baptism for the dead, critiquing Protestants for ignoring these passages (e.g., 1 Corinthians 15:29).

  • Dr. Dirkmaat (40:01):
    “To you, baptism for the dead is one of the most beautiful doctrines... The problem is Christian theology has hammered the top of the head of that nail for 2,000 years, that you have to accept Jesus in this life to be saved.”

• Doctrine from Joseph Smith:
  Both righteous and wicked go to the spirit world; “paradise,” “hell,” “hades,” and “sheol” all refer to the world of spirits. There, further teaching and opportunities for acceptance of the Gospel exist.

3. Scriptural Tensions and Historical Responses

• Reconciling Peter and Luke:

  • Referencing 1 Peter 3, where Jesus “went and preached unto the spirits in prison,” and contrasting it with Luke 23:43 (“today you’ll be with me in paradise”), illustrating contradictions in mainstream Christian interpretations.
  • Dr. Dirkmaat (27:19): “Peter is telling us that, in fact, Jesus is preaching to the spirits that are in prison. Well, how can both of those things be true if paradise means heaven?”

• Protestant and Catholic Attempts to Explain:
  Various attempts to harmonize are recounted, with pokes at “torturous exegesis” (32:10). Catholic tradition (the harrowing of hell) is mentioned in colorful, humorous detail.

4. Joseph Smith’s Further Theological Innovations

• Multiplicity of Heavens:
  Referencing D&C 76 and Paul’s statement about the “third heaven,” Joseph Smith teaches different degrees of glory; not just a binary heaven/hell.

• Godhead and Trinitarian Controversy:
  Joseph Smith’s teachings on the corporeal nature of God and the separateness of the Father and Son are highlighted, set in contrast to mainstream trinitarian theology.

  • Joseph Smith (51:00):
    “There is much said concerning God and the Godhead... The teachers of the day say that the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God and that they are all in one body and one God… But if they were stuffed all into one person, they would make a great God.”

5. Redemption for All and a Challenge to Traditional Christianity

• Everyone Enters the Spirit World:
  Both wicked and righteous go to the spirit world, with room for growth, change, and ultimately, salvation.

  • Dr. Dirkmaat (62:54):
    “When you die, wicked or righteous, you go to the spirit world. Now, we understand there’s a division in that spirit world… but… what makes someone be in this prison in the next life is their false thoughts, beliefs and their sins…”

• Universal Opportunity and Scope of Christ’s Atonement:
  Latter-day Saint doctrine is positioned as radically more generous and hopeful than most Christian traditions.

  • Dr. Dirkmaat (65:11):
    “Latter Day Saints are not denigrating the atonement of Jesus Christ by saying people can accept him after this life. We are expanding the atonement… to encapsulate the entirety of humanity, not just the lucky and predestined few…”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Joseph Smith’s Genius:
  Dr. Leduc (34:40):
  “If Joseph Smith is making it up, my goodness, is that brilliant to answer these questions.”

• On Contradictory Readings:
  Dr. Dirkmaat (33:49):
  “Yeah, except he says it’s the ones that were disobedient when Noah was alive. That makes it a lot harder to... explain.”

• On Trinitarian Parody:
  Joseph Smith, quoted by Dr. Dirkmaat (51:00):
  “But if they were stuffed all into one person, they would make a great God.”

• On the Value of LDS Doctrine:
  Dr. Dirkmaat (62:54):
  “That alone is one of the most beautiful doctrines that exists in all of written Christianity. That the billions upon billions upon billions of people who leave this world not knowing about Jesus… they can be saved when they accept Jesus in the next life…”

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Important Timestamps

• 00:38–06:56: Sports recap, humor, and icebreaking.
• 07:00–13:41: Listener emails and live event info.
• 13:41–19:43: Transition to doctrine, mailbag on spirit world & Gadianton robbers.
• 19:43–32:09: Christian doctrinal disputes on the afterlife, soul sleep, and immediate judgment.
• 32:10–38:22: LDS reinterpretation of paradise/hell and the world of spirits.
• 38:22–55:26: Joseph Smith's teachings: spirit world, baptism for the dead, rejection of the Trinity, new revelation.
• 55:26–62:54: Wrap-up: what makes LDS doctrine distinctive and hopeful.
• 62:54–66:05: Concluding remarks on salvation, universal opportunity, and previewing the next episode.

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Host Tone and Language

• Consistently humorous, self-deprecating, and lively; the hosts mock their own tangential style (“context on top of context but never answering the question”) and remain openly faith-promoting while critical of both Protestant and Catholic dogmatism.
• Language alternates between scholarly, scriptural analysis and colloquial, bantering exchanges.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode is an in-depth and often funny exploration of the Latter-day Saint view of the afterlife, highlighting Joseph Smith’s radical reimagining of traditional Christian doctrines. The hosts contrast LDS beliefs—such as the universal opportunity for salvation, the nuanced understanding of the spirit world, and distinct views on God—with mainstream Christian ideas, revealing the unique, inclusive, and revelatory character of Mormon theology. For listeners unfamiliar with LDS thought or looking for a defense of distinctive doctrines, this episode is an insightful and engaging primer.

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Transcript

[Narrator]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Foreign.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back for another episode of Pay Horns Picks where we pick exactly what's going to happen and sporting events and that people can take that all the way to the bank.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We did have someone email saying that, you know, all of our picks had been so bad that they didn't bet money, which we tell everyone not to bet any money at all.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, you should never bet money.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then you ended up being right over the fact that Miami covered.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Miami did cover. I had them. I had them also winning, which was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Not a good pick. Which.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, I mean, a couple bounces either way. It wasn't my Virginia pick, but yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That was pretty rough. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But Garrett, sometimes a person nails it so. Well, I've created a little bit of a stinger here. I'd like to play it to that. All picks moving forward will have this stinger as the. And you need to fade the public. The recency bias on this for Indiana is insane. Insane.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, so you're taking Miami to win straight up, therefore they cover.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Sure, but I think Miami wins.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm going to take Indiana to win, but Miami to cover.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's the safer bet. I think that that's the. The safer prediction. You're not betting.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, Indiana wins by six somehow. Six. I don't know, but six.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Looks like you got it.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Wow.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, look, am I the reincarnated.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Apostle Matthias that came to visit Joseph Smith in 1835 in. In. In Kirtland?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It wasn't really Matthias, by the way. It was someone claiming to be Matthias. Look, I'm not. I'm not saying that, but also not.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Not saying that, because how else could you get that dead on? How else could you get it dead on?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I. So the game was. The game was fun. The second half obviously was a little more fun than the first half, but the. The Fernando Mendoza is such a likable kid.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He really is. Just really. And the way that he scored that, the winning touchdown by throwing his body to the wolves. I don't know how much internal bleeding he has, but it's a lot of it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

In an ever increasingly cynical world, he is a breath of fresh air. I am rooting for him until the Raiders crush his soul.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like all number one draft pick quarterbacks who go to LA or down to Vegas.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Las Vegas.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. His time of that smile, that boyish smile he has now.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

I imagine in four years he will be a drug addict. That he will have taken up smoking even though he's a professional athlete.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That he'll own a series of car.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Washes, that he'll lose in some kind of deal. Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I hope again, both for him and for the Raiders, that he, that he pans out and you know, and I feel bad for you, Richard. I was, I was rooting for the Bears. That, oh my gosh, touchdown pass on fourth down was, I think the greatest throw I've ever seen.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I, I was screaming, I was running around. I was, it was, it was absolutely.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Thrilling him to go for two there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, in retrospect, right, you're at home.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And all of their other short yardage stuff at the goal line had been.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They couldn't convert on 4th and I think they were over 5,000 on 4th and short until that, until that last pass. I, it, look, it was, it was a heck of a season and I, all of my hatred for Caleb Williams has been washed away. That's great. Just, I feel like we just need to hear him out and just.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Yeah, he's just a complicated individual. You just gotta give him time.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Honestly though, with people chasing him, backpedaling and then getting hit as he threw it, the ball traveled 50 yards in the air. Yeah, 50 yards in the air. Dime target right into commence, like clap. Just right there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, yeah. And there absolutely was no push off. I feel like, look, look, the, I mean the Rams are, the Rams are pretty good. And here's the other thing too. Like, I'm a huge Puka Nakua fan, right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, how could you not be?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's a BYU fan. So, you know, hey, good for the Rams and heartbreaking for the Broncos. My gosh.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I know. My, my brother and my son are both huge Bronco fans. So Dallin's huge Bronco fan. And he and Kai were texting each other fast and fierce. There were some very cry faced texts in the. When it seemed like the Bills were going to win.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

And when, when they came back, boy, they were ecstatic.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And they're jumping up and down right.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

As Kai gets the information on his.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Phone that Bonex has broken his ankle and he's Out.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. And he broke his ankle in the same way that I would imagine I would break my ankle.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Trying to kneel down.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Just doing anything.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, basically just.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Just walking. I tried to walk across the road.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You. You did actually, I believe, break an elbow or hand or something. Just walking away from a BYU game up this.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, anyone can fall down the stairs. I fell up the stairs, hit my hand on just the railing, and went full stigmata. Broken hand right in the middle of my hand.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, that's enough for the. The sports recap. We're looking forward to March Madness. Can you imagine what this podcast is like for March Madness?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's going to be so irritating. We're so sorry to everyone.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes. Yes. But also, I did pick that game. I picked the national championship game. Dead on. Six points. Yes. I work with the mafia.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, Garrett, we actually have. We have quite a few things to hit here in the. In the early goings on before the Phoebe Draper Palmer. Actually, maybe I should get into the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Let's jump right into that Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. We'll start with. We'll start with Amber. I have been littening for years and finally got caught up and heard you're considering another live event. I would love to join for a live recording. Excited to hear back. Then we got another one from Trudy. Are you teasing about living in Layton or is it real? Where do you get tickets?

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Oh, a live event in Layton.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. This is live or live? It's both.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, first of all, Richard does live in Layton. I mean, notice I live in Spanish Fork. How many live events have we had in Spanish Fork?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, we do record in person sometimes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

In Layton as well.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's true, actually.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Sometimes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, this is nice. It's funny. It's like when Dick Cheney was put in charge of President Bush's vice president search committee, and he looked high and.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He looked low, and he's like, you know what?

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

I am by far the most qualified.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He looked in the mirror and he said, you know what? I'm the guy. I. I had to find a location. And Garrett, I. I looked high and I looked low, and sure enough, it's three miles from my house.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

It's interesting.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, at this point, the next.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Live event will be, like, in your yard. It'll just be in your backyard.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But we. We will be doing a live event.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So we're going to be doing a live event. Do we get any other emails on that live event?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Did you? We did. Also, it says, yes, do it. Bring merch also. How about, like, South Davis county, like Centerville, Farmington? Bountiful. Bountiful. Sorry if you don't want to drive, Richard, but we're paying to go, so maybe you. Maybe it would be nice, which is that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Ears. Because Centerville would be closer for me as well. And, you know, we know some of.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

The politicians there, they would like some.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Of the power brokers. Yes.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

But Richard, he can't possibly be bothered to drive more than three minutes away from his house.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So it's a great. It's a great location.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

It is a great location.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But that being said, we are going to do a live event. This one's going to be a little different. Last time, you know, it was. It was a fairly inexpensive because we got the venue. Very, very inexpensive. This venue is a little bit, you know, a little bit more upscale, although, you know, a good rate on it. And also the other point of the event is to help raise money for the Sweetwater rescue to get more people to the temple. And the next upcoming temple trip is with Saints of the Church in Kenya. And so the ticket prices are going to be more. Because we're paying more for a venue and we're also trying to get a considerable amount of that money in donations. So, like always, you know, we don't have the largest venue because, you know, that, I guess the Delta center came back and said it wasn't available that day.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, yeah, the Mammoth were playing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So, yeah, that was, you know, we thought we could get away with it, but it's going to be held in Layton and it's going to be $25 a ticket. And then. And it'll be through Eventbrite. And we'll put a link. Richard, will we actually put a link?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, it would be on brand to not put a link, but we want to do it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So we're going to try to put a link into. So when you look at your podcast description for this episode, there'll be a link if you want to go. I will say, I know it's a weird thing to say that it will sell out because when you listen to this podcast, you're thinking, there's no possible way anyone would do this for free, let alone donate money to Saints in Africa for it. I mean, they wouldn't do it for any reason, but last time it did happen to quite a few people that they thought, oh, I'll just wait and buy some tickets. And they were gone so fast. And so. So I would recommend, if you do want to go, that the Place. The place is limited. It's not like we can just say, oh, no, 300 people. We can't. It's limited. It's only 200 people that can fit in there. And so if. If you want to go, I recommend hopping on and grabbing some tickets. We'll record a live podcast. Hopefully the. The topic is a good one and it's not as bad as our normal podcast. We'll probably be on Gaddy anton Robbers Part 11 by then. I don't know. And then we will eighth.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, so it's February 28th, so, yeah, it won't be the 11th, but it'll be, you know, eighth, something like that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Get Aunt Robbers eight. Yeah, we figured the spirit world. But so anyway, we really encourage you to do that. And then also, one last housekeeping thing, we had some people cancel for our 2026 tour that goes to Kirtland and Palmyra. And so I know we received a lot of inquiries from people saying, oh, why are they sold out? Why are they sold out? We just put back up on the website. There are some limited availability there if you do want to come. And again, those will probably go pretty quickly. So it's June, but you can see that on the website. And maybe you'll have a link to that again in the.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I'll put a link there. So it's June 14th through the. Through the 20th. Flying into Cleveland, Flying out of Baltimore.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yep. We're starting in Cleveland this time. Going to the Kirtland temple, going to all the Kirtland sites, and then going to Niagara Falls, going to the. All the Palmyra sites, going to Harmony, going to the Gettysburg battlefield and then going to Fort McHenry and ending off that way. So we'd love to have you join us and if you can. And let's, let's. Let's transition, though, to the Gady Anton Robbers.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so there. There was one more email.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Let me. Let me pull that up. Here it comes to us from Zach.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, Before.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Before that. This is from Zach. Hello, Dr. Leduc and Dr. Dirkmot. This is the. Let me move it here. I had to increase the size on account of the blindness.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Richard already has it at 32 point font.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

48. I'm not kidding. It's legit 48 font. Oh, yeah. No, dude, I can't see anything.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I can't see any of these glasses right now.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I am wearing my glasses. This is from Zach. Hello, Dr. Leduc and Dr. Dirkmont. This is the former Elder Abel. I was sure this podcast was Hardly surviving. But alas, there is a staggering amount of littners in Mississippi. I haven't even listened to a single minute of the episode.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Which is what we said. This is what we said. We said there's no possible way he's listening anymore. He only listened because he had nothing else to do.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, that's my son, Rigdon. Right? When you have nothing else to do, it's okay. I haven't even listened to a single minute of the episode, but I'm just being updated. Of every instance that my name graces the podcast, I regret to inform that I am not a member of the Stake Presidency quite yet. But I have given so many talks. I've tried to avoid the high counselors because they seem hell bent on me taking them or taking me to random wards and branches. This past Sunday, I gave a talk to a branch with 17 people in attendance. I also unexpectedly blessed the sacrament when I realized no one was moving when the sacrament hymn started playing. Safe to say the church in Mississippi is thriving. I'm not sure whether or not to give an update on my dating life, because I'd rather steer clear of any women who listen to this.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow. Wow. Elder Abel, shots fired.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's very funny.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And I know you're not Elder Abel anymore, but I'm just going to call you Elder Abel because by the time this drops, you might be a member of the 70.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He might. Might be. Yeah. That's the biggest. That is the biggest of red flags. Not to mention my chances are already low now that all the Littners think I know the population of geographic regions like a freak. I promise I am not of the 2,960,000 people in Mississippi. I'd like to think that I'm more normal. In all seriousness, thank you. Thank y'. All. So we got. Hold on.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Back in Mississippi.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, he is. I've transitioned into another stage here. I had it. I had it all set up. I had. I lost him at the yard.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel like we're gonna buy Richard a teleprompter.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

The real reason that we're fundraising is to buy a teleprompter that he could just feed a giant words into.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

In all seriousness, thank y' all so much for all you've done and impact of your testimonies. Your podcast has helped me increase my understanding of the gospel and grow a love for the Savior's restored church. I don't have any questions, but I'd just like to say thank you for making my mission so fun and blessing the lives of so many. Yours truly, President Abel of the Mississippi Stake.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

That's hilarious. He signed it President Elder Abel.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You're awesome. Hopefully you someday start listening to this again, because clearly any girl worth dating or marrying will be listening to the podcast.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, there's no question about it. Well, so the. The last email that we had was a. From a littner, Stephen, who emailed in about the Gadian robbers and some of the stories that he. He heard as a lad. I think that they. People use the Gadian robbers being down in the. In the. What was it that. That kind of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Short Creek.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Short Creek.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Short Creek. It'd be Short Creek, Arizona. But not in Idaho. It wouldn't be.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

It'd be Short Creek.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right. So the idea of this.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They call them cricks on your side of the state too, right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, 100%.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

How do you spell. How do you spell crick? C, R, E, E. Krek. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yep.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Anyway, so he heard all kinds of stories about these Gadian robbers being down there. And apparently it worked. There was vandalism and things down there. And so they just used it as a. As a thing to scare. Scare kids away.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It tells the story of a bunch of rogue polygamist teenagers that kept vandalizing his grandfather's ranch.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Ranch.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Yeah, until they talked to the local polygamous leaders. And the polygamous leader said, well, we'll let them know that there's evil spirits of gaddy at robbers up there in that canyon, and then they won't come back. And they never did.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The best part about the email to me is that the polygamous hooligans.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Yeah, it is. They're like. Well, I mean, one of the jets, they're like snapping their fingers.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They're like, when you're a polyg, you're a polyg all the way from your first. Not cigarette.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Anyway, they would. They would go fishing with dynamite in the pond, much like Crocodile Dundee 2.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, very nice.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The vision of that is great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so we know that we captured some people's attention with that. And, you know, a lot of people have questions about the spirit world, so we shared last time. Again, if you're just tuning in, I promise the podcast is better than this. And that also is untrue. But we talked about it in the first part, some of Joseph's early teachings. We also shared from some of the Gospel Principles Manual and the Brigham Young manuals, some discussion about the spirit world. And I wanted to pick up there in part because, you know, what. What better thing to do? At this point than to quote what a Calvinist would have to say. You think, Richard, is that that's always.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The best thing to do.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I mean, so as I said, this really actually is a question even among Christians about the immediate change in the spirit world. So let me give you. I'm going to read just a very small part of what the great Calvinist theologian R.C. sproul said, talking about that point from Luke 23:43. And, and as I said last time, this is going to be the go to of any Protestant you ever talk to about what happens when you die. They will all. And this for two reasons, right? One, immediacy, right. That, that you immediately go to heaven or hell. But two, you clearly don't have to be baptized to be saved like the Catholics say that you do, you know, and then, you know, read in small parentheses. And also Mormons, but, you know, they primarily, they're far. As much as we flatter ourselves, they're.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Far more concerned with how many Catholics there are in the world generally.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Because there's a billion Catholics. And so this is how he explains it. He says, truly, I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise. That's quoting Luke 23:43. In the course of his crucifixion, much was said about the thieves that were crucified beside Jesus. In the initial stages, both of them joined in mockery of Jesus and with the crowds who were saying, he saved others, but himself he cannot save. If you are really the Son of God come down from the cross. And finally, one of the thieves had more of this than he could stomach. And something happened suddenly, transcendentally, supernaturally, as the spirit of God opened his eyes and he said to the malefactor that was being executed with him, hey, hey isn't actually in the Bible. He's not.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, well, maybe it's in the niv, though.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

It's the new Revised Standard Version. Hey, guys. It says, hey, we're guilty of the crimes that we have committed.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We deserve this execution, but this man is innocent. He then turned to Jesus and he said, remember me when you come into your kingdom. If ever there was a deathbed conversion there, it was that afternoon on the cross next to Jesus. And Jesus gave his personal assurance of salvation to the thief, saying, I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise. Okay, so that sounds like an immediacy, but Sproul, unlike your classic, I'm standing on the street corner handing out, you know, say the Sinner's Prayer pamphlet Preachers. He is a theologian who knows that there are problems with that, that there are problems with. Like we talked about last episode. So if I immediately go to heaven, or I immediately go to hell, then what happens when I am resurrected?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Resurrected, Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So he says there are those historically who have argued that the souls of people who die in Christ do not go immediately to the presence of God, to paradise, or to heaven. Notice he's saying paradise and heaven are the same place. That's standard Christian theology, but rather they remain in a state of suspended animation, a kind of psychopania or soul sleep that endures until the Last judgment, when they will finally be restored to life. And it will seem to them that it is all in a twinkling of an eye. Just as when you go to bed at night and wake up in the morning, you have no real sense of how many hours have passed during that intervening time. But Jesus gainsays that argument by saying to the thief, today, not simply after the last judgment, today you'll be with me in paradise. So he's. He's frankly attacking primarily, I mean, there are others that espouse it, but primarily a Jehovah's Witness talking point, right? That, that you don't exist in a conscious state after you die until the resurrection, in which case, you know, well, where's the soul after you die? Well, it sleeps until the resurrection. You aren't animate. You, you don't know what's going on until the resurrection. And he's speaking hard against that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, I mean, where is he claiming to get. I mean, I'm sure he's claiming that from. From. From where?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so, so he's. As far as the fact that today that you'll be with.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Because today you'll be with me in paradise. I get that, but like the. I mean, never has anything ever been uttered that is more hung on than that line. It seems.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It is, it is, it is. There's a couple of. Look, for Protestants today, you will be with me in paradise. Ephesians 2, 8 and 9, right? It is by grace that you're saved, not works, and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast. And then Romans, those are the most important scriptures there are because they encapsulate their theology. That you're saved by faith has nothing to do with any work that you do. How do we know that even Jesus believed that? Because Jesus is. I mean, look, when you read the Gospels, Jesus keeps talking a lot about doing works.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

He keeps saying, many will say unto me, lord, Lord.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right at that Day, Jesus is the one who says, just saying, I'm the Lord, won't save you. And so the thief on the cross for them is proof positive that salvation can't possibly have any works that are associated with it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But the suspended part is the part. Where is that?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Because it's today. This is what he says, today you will be with me in paradise, not simply after the last judgment, but today. So if you take paradise to mean heaven, then you will be with me. I mean, Sproul doesn't respond to that. He pushes back, right? Because he knows that people will push back on him. Let me tell you how the advocates of soul sleep answer that, okay? They will say, well, no, no, no. There's no real punctuation there in the Greek text. All Jesus is saying, I'm telling you.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Today, that is today is the day. I'm telling you these things that. Now, that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That is honestly a pretty bad argument, right? It's kind of like when we were talking about whether or not John was.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Still going to live, that it was like, no, no, Jesus wasn't saying, you know, what is it to you if.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He tarry till I come?

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

He was just saying, hey, John, stand over by that pillar while I talk to Peter here for a second.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Hurry.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Write that down.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know, that's essentially their argument. Their argument is that Jesus just like, hey, I'm going to tell you something right now.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

You're going to go with me to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Paradise, but not like today to paradise.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Eventually, you're going with me to paradise.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And part of this is because.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

They'Re.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Taking the term paradise to mean heaven. They're taking them as equivalencies right. Now. One of the odd parts about that, though, from the Bible, and you'll notice Sproul doesn't talk about it here, is we have from Peter where Jesus actually does go, right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He might have told the thief on the cross that he is going to paradise. But what does Jesus actually say to. Well, what does Peter say about where Jesus was that he went and he preached to the spirits who were in prison? So Jesus is telling the thief on the cross, today, you're going with me to paradise. Peter is telling us that, in fact, Jesus is preaching to the spirits that are in prison. Well, how can both of those things be true if paradise means heaven? I mean, Jesus just like, dropping him off there, like, hey, I've got some errands to run. Sorry, I know this is a bad time for you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's. That's the niv. But. So. But you know, Is, is there a possible interpretation that they don't mean spirit like they mean people in prison or that there is, like, that people are spirits or they're going to Rikers Island?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, look, this. This one is interpreted many different ways. And part of the reason why it's interpreted many different ways, because it doesn't make sense. In Catholic theology, right? A lot of Protestant theology, you can just. I mean, it's kind of like, you know, if you're on the right or you're on the left, very, very strongly politically. I already know what you think about what someone just said or did, regardless of what they just said or did. I already know. Because if you happen to be someone who can't stand Joe Biden and he said it, then you have a problem with it.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

And it doesn't even matter what he.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He'd be like, I'm glad we're all here as Americans.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

You're like, nope, nope, nope, not what.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

A terrible person, right? And the same thing on the right with, you know, someone on the left looking at someone on the right. Like, in a lot of ways, Protestant responses really are. Whatever the Catholic Church has taught must be false. And this is, remember, and it's not surprising because the idea of purgatory is the jumping off point for the Reformation. So it is not a surprise that of the places where Protestants draw their line in the sand, immediate judgment is one of them. Because Catholics are the ones saying, no, you go to a temporary place, right? So if you go to 1 Peter, chapter 3, and you all know this from your missions, right? Well, Elder Abel's probably already forgot it while he's sipping my ties somewhere in Biloxi. But I don't have any idea where he's from. But. For Christ hath once suffered for sins the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh, but quickened or alive in the spirit, by which he also went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls, were saved by water. Now, they especially don't like this interpretation because, you know, the next verse is the like figure whereunto even baptism doth now save us. Oh, boy.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Let's not read First Peter ever, because first of all, you can't be saved by baptism.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You're only saved by thief on the cross, right? It's only by having faith. So you will have. I mean, There's a lot of ways that people have deflected this, and one way is. Well, when he talks about preaching the spirits in prison, he means those who are spiritually. He went and preached also to the spirits in prison, meaning he declared his gospel even to those people in Noah's time, that they were spiritually cut off. That's what he's saying. Not that he actually went helpful. In Catholic theology, this is called the Harrowing of Hell. That's kind of a cool, right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, that is kind of cool.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The harrowing of hell is Jesus going.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

To hell and saying, all right, everybody, looks like you probably should have listened to Noah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And so there's actually some. You could probably look up and see some great images, some great Catholic images of the harrowing of hell. But this. These things, obviously, they are at least somewhat contradictory. And so, you know, Sproul is going to continue.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

That.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

If you ever see an example of torturous exegesis of scripture, there it is, as if Jesus dying, gasping for breath, where every word that he utters in his dying state costs precious oxygen, that he's going to waste that oxygen by telling the thief what day is it.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

That he's speaking to him.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's absurd. The point of this day is to the thief. You are not going to have to wait. As soon as your eyelids close in death and my eyelids close in death, we will be together, not on crosses of wood, but in paradise, in the bosom of Abraham, in the presence of God.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Garrett, everyone needs to stop listening right now and do a Google search image on the harrowing of hell.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

For the harrowing of hell.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's fantastic.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, well, look, I.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

When am I ever just saying things that aren't.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, my gosh. No, you never just say things. You pick the Indiana game perfectly. The thing is, is that like. Like, the medieval harrowing of hell is great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Like, shoving people into places with pitchforks and there's dragons.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

You've got a giant spear, and you're just so great, dude.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so you do actually have. My point is in saying, Jesus says, you're going to be with me in paradise. Peter says that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison. And I know the gymnastics that they're doing to say, well, no, it's people that are spiritually dead. Yeah, except he says it's the ones.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

That were disobedient when Noah was alive. That makes it a lot harder to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Be like, to explain. So I have had. I've heard Protestants say, well, he went after he went to heaven. He then went to hell to essentially to condemn the people that were already there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I think that they got it already. I mean, it's just like, geez, lay up.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, well, it's like super hell, like we said. It's like, it's like the, it's like the next level of hell.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But so super hell hasn't even come yet because they're about to get resurrected and have that get their body back.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So their flesh can be more effectively burned off for eternity.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, that's. You know what it is actually there is. You and I were talking about this before the podcast.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was very little in our pre show.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It was mostly just you bragging about picking the Indiana game. Right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was mostly that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, mostly that. But that because the gospel, there are simple aspects to the gospel that are beautiful and that are wonderful and. But sometimes this is actually a perfect example of that. We, I think we underestimate. I know I do underestimate just the. If Joseph Smith is making it up, my goodness, is that brilliant to answer these questions.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Joseph is receiving revelations that answer questions that Christians can't figure out an answer to or they have to come up with some kind of convoluted answer like we're talking about for 2,000 years. Because the scriptures do talk about that. How do you reconcile it? How do you reconcile someone having to be baptized but not having to be baptized? How do you reconcile someone going to heaven but not actually going to heaven? Well, I'll tell you what Joseph Smith reconciles. Here is from Wilford Woodruff's journal where he Joseph Smith's giving a discourse at 11 June, 1843. Men will say, I will never forsake you, but will stand by you at all times. But the moment you teach them some of the mysteries of God that are retained in the heavens, that are to be revealed to the children of men when they are prepared, they will be the first to stone you and to put you to death. Now I got to tell you, that is very, very, very true. A lot of people really believe that they would accept anything that. That God teaches. And those same people will let you know where President Oaks is wrong about what he said in General Conference. I agree in the sense that the gospel can get to a place where it's simple. Look, obviously the gospel of Jesus Christ is that Jesus Christ died for our sins and was resurrected and that because of that, all of us can be saved and all of us will be resurrected. But the point of this life is exaltation. Not just salvation from death. Jesus already gave us that. So while it is simple, these complexities of theology that the Christian world wrestles over, they exist for a reason. How can Jesus both be going to preach to the spirits in hell and also be in paradise? How can both of those things be true? And so you end up just discounting one or the other. You end up saying, well, he didn't really go to hell, even though it.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Says that he did, because he wouldn't.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And Catholics believe that. And then if you're Catholic, you're like, well, I know he said that the.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Thief would go, but what he really meant was he'd go to purgatory, which.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Only people who are baptized would go to purgatory. But I mean, so it's by discounting some part of the Scripture. So Joseph is talking about here, look, I'm about to teach you something that's going to be very hard for you to accept. Remember, Joseph's entire audience is Protestant. There's like a couple of Jewish people.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Three Catholics, and the rest are Protestant. I mean, everybody is a Protestant convert in America.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He says it was the same principle that crucified the Lord Jesus Christ. I will say something about the spirits in prison. There has been much said about the sayings of Jesus on the cross to the thief saying, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise. The commentators or translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? Paradise is a modern word. It does not answer to at all to the original that Jesus made use of. There is nothing in the original in any way that signifies paradise. But it was this day. I will be with thee in the world of spirits and will teach thee or answer thy inquiries. The thief on the cross was to be with Jesus in the world of spirits. He did not say paradise or heaven. The doctrine of baptism for the dead is clearly shown in the New Testament. Now, why Joseph is talking this way is there are a lot of people pushing back against the doctrine of baptism for the dead. I know that that's so foreign to you that every person listening, except for, you know, we probably have a few Catholic listeners that are like, you know what? No, that sounds. I see why they're pushing back.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

But yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

To you, baptism for the dead is one of the most beautiful doctrines that exists because it means every person who has ever lived has an equal opportunity at exaltation. The problem is Christian theology has hammered the top of the head of that nail for 2,000 years, that you have to accept Jesus in this life to be saved. And so Joseph is responding to Protestant claims. The, the Protestants are responding to him saying there's no point of baptism for the dead because the second someone dies, they're already in heaven or they're already in hell. What are you baptizing them for? Are you gonna, are you gonna pull them up out of, out of hell? And if they already have faith in Jesus, they're already saved because of the thief on the cross. So Joseph goes directly at them this, the thief on the cross was to be with Jesus in the world of spirits in the spirit world. And you're thinking, what does this have to do with our gaddy ant and robbers question? Well, this has a lot to do with where our theology comes from that when people die, they don't go immediately to heaven or hell, they go to the world of spirits. Now there's honestly Latter Day Saints listening to me right now who are feeling uncomfortable about that because they want, they want to, to say the same thing that their Baptist friend says, that when someone dies that they're in the presence of Jesus. Now we know in some way the, the righteous are able to be in the presence of God. So, so you can still believe that, but you got to be careful that you don't believe it to the point where you miss the beauty of the doctrine that exists. And that is that when we die, we all go to the spirit world. Those who are righteous with this beautiful knowledge interacting with the Lord Jesus, then beginning to declare this gospel to other people who didn't have it. And then because of this beautiful gospel, baptisms and other temple ordinances take place for those people on the other side that take place for the people on the other side from. With people here going to the temple, as Joseph said, with baptism that is clearly shown in the New Testament. If the doctrine is not good, then throw away the New Testament. But if it is the word of God, then let the doctrine be acknowledged. Now this is. Look, Joseph's making a good Bible bash point here. The Bible is absolutely the word of God. Every single word was written by the hand of God. Every single word in the Bible is absolutely true. The only truth comes from the Bible. Why then are they baptized for the dead?

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

If the dead that rise. Not at all. What?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, they weren't really doing baptisms for the dead. It's funny because when you listen to New Testament scholars who are not partisan like so New Testament scholars who are agnostic or atheistic, they will say directly that the doctrine of baptism, they'll say, look, there's no way of getting around this the way that it's written. Paul is clearly writing about a practice that is approved of baptisms for the dead. He is not, as people will try to say, well, he was just talking about how when you baptize the people that are dead in spirit, that then it brings them back to God. That's not what it says. It's not what it says at all. Right, so Joseph here is, I think, a little frustrated. Hey, the Bible is absolutely the word of God, and every single word's the word of God, except for when it talks about things that we don't understand and then we just pretend it's not even in there. And that's what Joseph's saying that they're doing. Look, it's in the New Testament. The same Paul that you are quoting, that you are saved by faith and grace alone is the same Paul saying that they're performing baptisms for the dead. So why does the one verse from Paul matters, but the other verse from Paul doesn't? And. And Joseph continues. He says, if it is the word of God, then let the doctrine be acknowledged. And it was one reason why Jesus said, how oft would I have gathered you together that they might attend to the ordinance of baptism for the dead as well as the other ordinances of the priesthood, revelations, etc. This was the case on the day of Pentecost. These blessings were poured out upon the disciples on that occasion. There has also been much said about the word hell, and the sectarian world have preached much about it. But what is hell? It is another modern term. It is taken from Hades the Greek, or Sheol the Hebrew. And the true signification of it is the world of spirits. Hades, shale paradise, spirits in prison. It is all one. It is a world of spirits. The righteous and the wicked, all God to the same world of spirits. I mean, I don't know if anyone else can feel that, but, boy, I wish I was there present for Joseph preaching that.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

You know what, though?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I probably would be one of the faithless people that would have been like.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Yeah, but that can't possibly be that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm gonna be a congregationalist again. I mean, I. I don't know. I probably would have been that. That's the direction you would have gone.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

I have so little faith in my ability to discern truth that, you know, Joseph starts teaching something. I'm like, no, no, that's not what I thought when I first started reading the Book of Mormon.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He goes on, and maybe I'll finish his sermon here, because it is it does speak to this idea of what happens in the afterlife. But says one, I believe in one hell and in one heaven, and all are equally miserable or equally happy. Now, again, that's the Protestant doctrine of when you die, you immediately go to heaven or hell. Joseph has just said, listen, when Jesus said paradise, he meant the part of the world of spirits where you're a believer. And when Jesus. When the Bible says hell, it really means the part of the world of spirits where you're not a believer. Right. That's what it means. But it's all the spirit world. That's what he's trying to teach people. But then he's going to teach you a little bit. That comes from doctrine covenant, section 76. St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens. He knew a man caught up to the third heaven. And Jesus said, there were many mansions in my Father's kingdom. Any man may believe Jesus Christ is good and be happy in it, yet not obey his commandments and at last be cut down by his righteous commands. A man of God should be endowed with all wisdom, knowledge, and understanding in order to teach and lead the people. The blind may lead the blind together, and they'll both fall into the ditch. I mean, I could go a little further because he's about to. He's about to get into some pretty heavy doctrine. Should we just pause there?

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

No, no, let's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, no.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Get into it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

All right. I mean, this is what you guys paid for for the free podcast.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

This is what the missionaries put all their missions for. Yeah, that's right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

There is, by the way. We've had an explosion of missionaries lately. I don't know if Richard's just not updating the missionary emails as quickly as they're coming in, because, look, it is hundreds of emails. And Richard, I'm Father Richards, also trying to figure out what the line on a game is before he puts in a missionary email. We had this week, about a half a dozen missionaries send us saying, hey, I want the podcast. I just got my call. And then they included pictures of their actual call.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's awesome.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

We would be sitting here saying, like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Nope, that guy's a liar.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

There's no possible way he's going on a mission.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The only people we think are liars are pregnant women.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

No, I think what we have established that it's their husbands that are lying about it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's funny that they're. So the evidence is in the missionary.org email.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

All we need is the missionary email. But we had about it was four or five just in the last couple days.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

That sent us pictures of their entire.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Call and now I know their home addresses.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So actually, that is actually kind of cool. I do get caught up in missionary season as people start. As people start you know, reading their calls and getting all excited and what we have. I think I've mentioned this before, we're doing some mission prep stuff in our ward. Did I call it Tinkum's Tots on here? I can't remember if I did.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I think you did. It was something like that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, yeah, the Michael Scott Tots. Scott's Tots, yeah. Anyway, that didn't take off as well, that name didn't. But I do have imaging for it anyway. But we had like 40 kids at our house on Sunday going through stuff. It's just. You can't help but to get excited about it. So I'm glad that they're doing that and I'll get them added sometime in August.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, back to Joseph's sermon here. Not only has he just blown up heaven and hell, not only has he.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Just as he argued for baptism of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The dead, he's now going to take a. He's going to take a quick step into trinitarian theology. Now, it's funny, my son on his mission, his companion is a convert to the church and you know, he doesn't have a problem, but he has a lot of friends back home who are certain that he's going to burn in hell because he became a Mormon.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

And so, you know, he's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He's like. This is what they say about trinitarian theology. Well, here's Joseph arguing about it. There is much said concerning God and the Godhead, etc. The scriptures say that there is Gods many, and Lord's many. The teachers of the day say that the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God and that they are all in one body and one God. Jesus says or prays that those that the Father had given him out of the world might be made one in us as we are one. But if they were stuffed all into one person, they would make a great God. If I were to testify that the world was wrong on this point, it would be true. Peter says that Jesus Christ sat on the right hand of God. Any person that has seen the heavens opened knows that there are three personages in the heavens now. So here Joseph is not only appealing to the Bible, right, because Jesus prays and says, father, make them one, as you and I are one. But he doesn't actually think that James is going to meld into Peter.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It'd be one gigantic apostle. It's going to be like, like on the old transformers when the Constructicons would, would merge together to, to make devastators.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I did, I did some, I did that in a, in like a PowerPoint presentation where I had the apostles that. And they all kind of came together to form like one mega apostle. Yeah, it was, it was to illustrate the point that you're discussing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I see why there's so many missionaries who come to you for their pre missionary teachings. This is. You already had it. But there's three in heaven that holds the key of power. The Father hath powered himself, so hath the Son in himself. Then the Father has someday laid down his body and taken it again, so he has a body of his own. So here Joseph is declaring directly, the Father has a body. Right. It is the weird part of trinitarian theology that the argument is God doesn't have a body. He has no body parts or passions. But isn't Jesus God? Yes, Jesus is God. Does Jesus have a body? Yes. So the Father doesn't have a body and the Father is God. Jesus is also God, but does have a body. But God doesn't have a body. But Jesus, God does have a body, because that's the whole point. Right, so. So it's one of those contradictions, right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, you're getting it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. When you're saying that doesn't make sense. Exactly. So. So has the Son a body of his own? And so each one will be in their own body. Many of the sex cry out, I have a testimony of Jesus. I have the spirit of God. But away with Joe Smith. He says he's a prophet, but there's to be no prophets nor revelations in the last days. But stop, sir. The Revelator says the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. So by your own mouth you were condemned. So he, he's, you know, going pretty hard on this about the fact that God does have a body. But, but the part that I love about this is anyone who has seen the heavens opened knows that there are three personages in the heavens. How does Joseph Smith. Why is Joseph Smith so certain that Jesus and the Father are two separate individuals who have bodies? Because he has seen and talked to them multiple times. And what does Stephen say when he has the heavens open? I see the Father and Jesus Christ on his right hand.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The people who have actually seen the heavens describe the Father and the Son being separate and I know that's a little bit outside of our realm of talking about the spirit world, but here it's important to note. Look, Joseph isn't just like a better version of John Calvin and Martin Luther. Joseph is the prophet of the Restoration. You know, if you were going to start a religion during the second Great Awakening, literally the worst possible thing you could do is what Joseph Smith did. Literally everyone around him is saying there is no truth at all except in the Bible.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Joseph's like, actually, here's the Book of Mormon.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay? So that's a pretty big stumbling block. And if you don't believe me, go talk to your Protestant friend and ask them if they'll read the Book of Mormon. Let's see what they say. We could get a couple emails on that. Just ask, hey, would you mind reading the Book of Mormon? And we'll, you know, we'll get a good response.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There was a, there was actually a fairly popular Instagram reel that went around this last week of a, of a famous kind of pastor that took the Book of Mormon and threw it in the trash and was, it was unnecessarily aggressive with it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we already know that that's what they're going to say, right? So the number one principle of Christianity in Joseph time is all truth only came from the Bible. And then Joseph Smith produced other scripture multiple times, right on top of Revelations, right. The entire Protestant world was clamoring all over themselves to become less Catholic than their Protestant neighbor. Like, like, Bill claims he's a true Christian, but I heard that he has a Bible that has the Apocrypha in it, and the Catholics are the ones.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Who have the Bible with apocrypha.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So that proves that he's like, just like a shadow Catholic. Like, they are desperately trying to claim that they have no connection to any idea of priesthood authority, of works being necessary for salvation.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

And Joseph Smith comes out swinging.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Actually, not only is baptism essential, here's.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

A bunch of other ordinances that are also essential.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

If you were to sit down in a, in like, you know, I'm sure you've been in these meetings, Richard.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

You sit down.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's, it's like the business planning meeting where people are spitballing ideas like, you know, what's going to help our brand legitimately. Every single thing that Joseph Smith comes up with would not be, it would not make it through the, the, the, the product development phase.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Because the entire Christian world, not just Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, the entire Christian world is agreed on one thing, and that Is trinitarian theology the entire Christian world? And Joseph starts his religion by saying, actually God and Jesus are separate people think about how much less resistance he would have had if he just would have adopted trinitarian theology. But he couldn't just adopt trinitarian theology because he knew that God and Jesus were separate beings because he talked to them. There's a reason why they told him that their creeds were an abomination in his side because they were not causing people to understand who God is. As Joseph will say in another sermon, if you don't understand God, I would say you have no salvation. If you don't know God, you have to know him. Any person that's seen the heavens open knows that there's three personages in heaven. And Joseph, there is not just making a biblical argument, he's making an argument from experience. I have seen God, and that's how I know that, that there's God the Father and God the Son. Interestingly, Joseph in another sermon. I know we're almost out of time. You know, Richard's, he's glancing, he starts glancing over like, I've got a thing. I've got a, I've got, there's, there's.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Some chariot racing on channel 474 that I've got a parlay on. Give me a second. I've gotta, I've got, I've gotta look over at it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But in another 1843 sermon, Joseph Smith is talking about, about salvation in the next life. And so I'm going to read this. I know this is not directly related, like most questions we get. I'm going to give context on top of context on top of context, and then never answer the question. That's, that's what we do. It's in fact, in fact, if we had a tagline, it would be context.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

On top of context, but never answering the question. Standard True podcast.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Also, you know what, what, what was the line? Salvation for a man is. Is for a man to be saved from all his enemies. The first chapter of Second Peter hints of things which are nowhere written. There are things which pertain to the glory of God and the heirship of God with Christ which are not written in the Bible.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Again, Joseph's striking out. I mean, there's a lot of truths that are in the Bible. When the entire Christian world is saying.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, every single truth has to be in the Bible. Actually, there's a lot of things not written in the Bible. The Bible itself declares that there's things not written in the Bible.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The Bible.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

If all of the words and sayings of Jesus were written, I suppose the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

World itself could not contain them. I mean, you could just write that off as being flowery. But what if it's literal like everything else you read in the Bible, that Jesus has done so much that you can't write about all of them. The spirits in the eternal world are diverse from each other as. As are as each other here in their dispositions. Now think about that. People are diverse. Aspiring, ambitious as man is, is liable to enemies there as well as here. It is necessary for him to be placed beyond their power in order to be saved. This is done by our taking bodies and keeping our first estate. I forgot to mention, this is Franklin Richards journal that I'm quoting. I. I said that what it was, but I didn't. I didn't say what the source was there. Sorry. This is done by taking, by our taking bodies and keeping our first estate and having the power of the resurrection pass upon us, whereby we are enabled to gain the ascendancy over disembodied spirits. The mortification of Satan consists in his not being permitted to take a body. He sometimes gets possession of a body, but when the proven authorities turn him out of doors, he finds it was not his, but a stolen one. So Joseph is also making the point here that. And he makes it actually in several other places. But I'm going to move on because I don't want to belabor the point, which I've already belabored two episodes. I haven't even got to the good stuff yet. I've got some good stuff coming. I mean, okay, stuff coming.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This has been good stuff.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I might have the word gaddy Anton, at some point. In the next episode, Brigham Young. Oh, we're coming for you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We've got some.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Brigham Young. We've got.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

We've got.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We've got all kinds of stuff we're bringing. But Joseph is going to teach that one of the reasons why we needed to gain a body like you did there to keep our first estate, is it permanently. Eventually, it permanently puts us out of the power of those evil, fallen spirits. It's part of your ability over those evil spirits. Now, these are the ones we assume we're talking about that are fallen from the world of spirits. And the question is more about what about these evil Gadiantons. Right. Well, so as we leave, remember what Joseph said. When you die, wicked or righteous, you go to the spirit world. Now, we understand that there's a division in that spirit world. We don't understand what it looks like. Now I get it. When you draw it on the board, you draw a circle, then draw a line through it. Then maybe you draw a bunch more lines on one side because that's spirit prison, and on the other side you like draw a cloud or something because that's paradise. But they appear to be a difference in your state of glory and happiness, rather than a state than a place that what makes someone be in this prison in the next life is their false thoughts, their false beliefs and their sins that they haven't repented for. And as Joseph will teach, as soon as a spirit gains knowledge, it can be saved. That in this life or the next, when he consents to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, he is saved. Yeah, the gospel is simple. But that alone is one of the most beautiful doctrines that exists in all of written Christianity. That the billions upon billions upon billions of people who leave this world not knowing about Jesus, not knowing about the gospel, that they can be saved when they accept Jesus in the next life is as Brigham Young says. Will they be saved? Yes. How are they saved? By the atonement of Jesus Christ. Latter Day Saints are not denigrating the atonement of Jesus Christ by saying people can accept him after this life. We are expanding the atonement of Jesus Christ to encapsulate the entirety of humanity, not just the lucky and predestined few, not just the couple that happened to be born in a place where Christianity is preached, but every single son and daughter of God. And we'll talk more about this, answering this question, but not answering it on the next episode.

[Narrator]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirk Mott and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.