S6E6 Gadianton Robbers Part 4 (Heavenly Travel)

Summary

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Standard of Truth Podcast

S6E6 – Gadianton Robbers Part 4 (Heavenly Travel)

Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat
Co-host: Dr. Richard Leduc
Date: February 5, 2026

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Main Theme

This episode weaves humor, listener questions, and doctrinal exploration to investigate what Latter-day Saint prophetic teachings reveal about the spirit world—including personal and “heavenly” travel, the persistence of individual identity after death, and the continued presence and influence of evil spirits (notably those likened to “Gadianton robbers”). Through historical sermons, especially those of Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff, Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc reflect on how understanding our relationship with the spirit world and unseen adversaries can deepen faith and resilience.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. Listener Emails & Podcast Community (02:17–21:00)

• Recurring Humor & Listener Connections:
  • The hosts riff on Latter-day Saint culture, their "self-deprecating humor," and memorable listener stories—such as Rebecca, who listeners first heard from while she was in labor and who named her son Heber ("According to the Social Security Administration… there were 33 baby boys given that name in 2024." – [06:09], Dr. Leduc).
  • Friendly banter about the rise in "Hebers" and nonsensical over/under wagers, poking fun at themselves for making Super Bowl-style predictions on a church history podcast.
• Reflections on Missionary Listeners:
  • The hosts note that many listeners are missionaries who often stop tuning in upon returning home ("We've learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all returned missionaries... they immediately begin [to] stop listening to the podcast." – [12:29], Dr. Leduc).

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2. Surface Humor & Sports Picks (22:07–25:48)

• The team jokingly makes Super Bowl and NCAA picks, noting the anomaly of such banter on a faith-focused podcast, expertly intertwining sports and self-awareness as an example of "church show" levity.

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3. Heavenly Travel & the Nature of the Spirit World (25:54–45:44)

Wilford Woodruff’s Perspective ([26:54])

• Quote:
  "Death was a separation of friends here and a meeting on the other side of the veil. Births are a separation in the spirit world, while it is a joy here."
• Insight:
  The reversal of joy and separation at death and birth is highlighted, offering a lens into the spirit world's emotional realities.

Brigham Young on Spiritual Continuity ([31:03])

• Quote:
  “She has now gone to try the realities of another existence, to another department of the life and lives that God has bestowed upon his children. This life is preparatory to a more exalted state of existence…”
• Insight:
  Death is not a radical transformation but a continuation—"the lack of change that takes place when we die" ([28:08], Dirkmaat). This contrasts with typical Christian views of instant sanctification or transformation at death.

Heavenly Mobility & Experiential Knowledge ([36:10])

• Quote – Brigham Young:
  "If we want to behold Jerusalem as it was in the days of the Savior, or if we want to see the Garden of Eden as it was when it was created, there we are… So, first of all, as a devoted student of history, this is awesome… in the next life, I would have the ability to be like, I want to see the Battle of Waterloo..."
• Insight:
  The hosts delight in Brigham’s description of spirit world “travel,” suggesting that righteous spirits after death may be endowed with the power to witness any moment or place spiritually, likened to instantaneous travel ("like the light of morning," [38:10]; referencing "heavenly travel").

Interactions With Spirits & Gospel Preaching After Death ([52:38])

• Quote – Brigham Young:
  "The faithful elders who leave this world will preach to the spirits in prison… Every spirit will be preached to that has had a tabernacle and become accountable…"
• Insight:
  The prospect of continued learning, teaching, and progression in the afterlife, including missionary work among spirits, is affirmed.

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4. Evil Spirits: Gadianton Robbers in the Spirit World (57:31–61:30)

• Constant Adversaries
  • Brigham Young repeatedly taught that "scores of evil spirits" roam the earth and the spirit world—including "spirits of the old Gadianton robbers"—seeking to influence mortals toward evil, sometimes with more "watchers" per righteous soul than a whole wicked city ([57:31]).
  • Quote:
    "There are millions of those spirits in the mountains... ready to lead astray every man and woman that wishes to be a Latter-day Saint... You will see them as soon as your spirits are unlocked from these tabernacles…"
    —Brigham Young ([57:31])

Power Over Evil ([63:34])

• Quote – Brigham Young:
  "[We] have power over [the devil] which the rest of the world does not possess... When we rebuke those evil powers and they obey not, it is because we do not live so as to have the power of God, which is our privilege to have."
• Insight:
  Despite being surrounded by spiritual adversaries, covenanted saints have authority and power to resist and rebuke evil influences.

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5. Faith, Testimony, and the Ongoing Battle ([66:43])

• The hosts return to practical advice:
  • Saints should not despair at the prospect of unseen enemies, but remember that their covenant relationship with God grants protective power.
  • The "enemy" is real, but so is the power that comes through righteousness, study, and faith: "Remember who you are. You are a spirit child of heavenly parents who did not follow Satan... [who] said, I know that I'm going to struggle... but if that's the only way I can become like my Heavenly Father, then I'm going to go..." ([67:10], Dirkmaat).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Our trials are to make us perfect and to prepare us for the reward of the just."
  — Brigham Young ([44:48])

• "If we want to behold Jerusalem as it was in the days of the Savior... there we are."
  — Brigham Young ([36:10])

• "There are millions of those spirits in the mountains, and they are ready to make us covetous if they can... You will see them as soon as your spirits are unlocked from these tabernacles and you are in the spirit world, and you will there have to contend against evil spirits as we have to contend against wicked persons here."
  — Brigham Young ([57:31])

• "We have the power and right to rebuke those evil spirits. When we rebuke those evil powers and they obey not, it is because we do not live so as to have the power of God, which is our privilege to have."
  — Brigham Young ([63:34])

• "Remember, it's not just thoughts that pop into your head. There really is an enemy, an actual being from the unseen world as Joseph Smith described. But you can have power over those evil spirits, whether it's a million Gadiantons or one."
  — Dr. Dirkmaat ([67:10])

• [Humorous aside:] "I would go to the Michigan–North Carolina game when Chris Weber calls the timeout that they didn’t have. Would you try to stop him? I wouldn’t try to stop Abraham Lincoln’s assassin, I’d try to be like, 'Hey Chris, you are out of timeouts!'"
  — Dr. Leduc/Panel ([37:37])

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Episode Structure & Timestamps

| Time | Segment | Highlights | |----------|----------------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 02:17 | Listener Emails | Heber baby name stats, missionary listening habits | | 22:07 | Sports Picks & Banter | Football humor, light-hearted transitions | | 25:54 | Heavenly Travel via Early Sermons | Wilford Woodruff & Brigham Young; reality of spirit world | | 36:10 | Exploring Spiritual Mobility | Brigham Young’s sermon on spirit "travel" | | 52:38 | The Spirit World’s Missionary Work | Teaching and agency after death | | 57:31 | Gadianton Robbers as Evil Spirits | Spiritual opposition and influence | | 63:34 | Power Over Evil | Authority of the Priesthood; practical faith counsel | | 66:43 | Faithful Resilience | Remembering identity and purpose amidst adversity |

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, witty, and grounded in faith
• Frequent self-mockery and accessible explanations
• Balanced between doctrine and jovial Latter-day Saint cultural references

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Summary Takeaways

• The spirit world is a continuity of life—not a mysterious, radically transformative existence, but a place of further growth, knowledge, and opportunity.
• Both positive and negative spiritual influences persist after death; “Gadianton robbers” serve as a rich metaphor for the adversary and his followers' ongoing opposition.
• Saints are admonished to remember their divine heritage and the power available to them through covenants and righteous living, ensuring “power over those spirits.”
• The study and remembrance of revealed doctrine regarding the afterlife can offer profound comfort and empower faith—even (or especially) when humor lightens heavy subjects.

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For listeners interested in early church history, Latter-day Saint doctrine of the afterlife, and how humor and faith intertwine in a scholarly context, this episode both entertains and edifies—offering scriptural, prophetic, and practical perspectives on the realities of “heavenly travel” and unseen adversaries.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor.

[Katie Barnes]

Foreign.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Hi. Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. I'm still alive. Thanks for having me back.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, it was touch and go.

[Katie Barnes]

We still have two passwords to figure out and then we can drop the boom.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It was funny. So I was working on it Saturday afternoon, and you were getting a flurry of texts from me, and you're like, wait, what's going on? Passwords.

[Katie Barnes]

Hey, Richard, we weren't really planning to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Kill you, but I woke up with some.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I woke up with some abdominal pain and I'm like, I gotta get this over to Garrett. I gotta. I gotta save the podcast. Well, it's great to be back. Excited. I know we've got a little bit of a finish up on some Gaddy Anton talk.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We've got some Gaddy Anton stuff going on. We've got. I mean, clearly the super bowl is coming up, so we got to make our picks.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Our picks.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, We've got to continue our winning streak from the national championship game.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, we do have that. We now have kind of something to play into making those picks. So I don't know if you want to jump into that straight away or what You.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow. Yeah, well, yeah, let's do. Let's start right off so that everyone thinks this isn't a church show.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's funny. One of the email that we're going to read mentions President Hinckley's 2005 conference address on gambling.

[Katie Barnes]

Actually, maybe we should read the email first. Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, let's read her email first. This comes to us from Rebecca. And by the way, when we were going through the email before, there's something about that name that makes Garrett and I sing the song from the Old Testament seminary videos every time.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Because it was one of the only.

[Katie Barnes]

Approved CDs that exists that you can.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Listen to on your mission. And so it was either Mormon Tabernacle Choir and, you know, I had Songs.

[Katie Barnes]

Of the Civil War.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Now, I was playing that on repeat, you know.

[Katie Barnes]

But Richard, want to sing a few bars of Like Rebecca? Like Rebecca, I will forsake.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, that one wasn't as great a song unless you happen to be related to the person who wrote it or sang it.

[Katie Barnes]

Another.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And if that's the case, we think it's amazing.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, it is. Very good. So this comes to us from Rebecca and whose children's children's children.

[Katie Barnes]

Will be blessed, Will be blessed, Will be blessed.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello, this is the original woman in labor. I'm not currently in labor, but I.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Hope this is how it all started.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. Two and a half years ago this very day.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Before that, how did people get their emails read on the podcast before the labor?

[Katie Barnes]

Was it just. Was it death threats they made against us? How did it happen before?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, it was. Yeah, it was some sort of kidnap, hostage situation.

[Katie Barnes]

I see.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And they kidnapped the wrong kid for me to read their emails online.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah, that's the problem. They're like. I don't even like that one. Ask him why his rubes dirty.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's funny. Actually, we were just talking to Rigdon, who's going down to the byu, but he's dating a lovely lady that is up here in Davis County. And so he is home every day. And so Becky goes in and says, rigdon, your room is a mess. And he says, my room is in Provo. That's the guest bedroom. You need to get that cleaned up by whoever the guest is that's staying there, which I thought was very funny.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then Rigdon was unable to walk.

[Katie Barnes]

Out of the house. Is that because I assume anyone saying that to Becky, that that's probably the last thing they say to Becky.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so here's. So here's the trick. The trick is if it's funny, you know what? Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

She'll let it slide.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But that's. That's the game you're playing. It better be funny.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah, you better. If she doesn't laugh, it's. It's like she has to turn her chair around.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, it's one of those things, though, too, where Rigden. Rigdon's wry smile, like, he. He can play my wife like a Stradivarius. You know what I mean?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like, he's very disarming.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He is very disarming. And so we. We. He drives home. He's literally home sleeping in the guest room every day. And we love it, actually. It's nice. Andrew's in Israel, so a little more of Rigdon is fine. I hope you read email and pass. Anyway. And pass along my congratulations to Jake and McKenna on the birth of their baby. Heber. For those littners who have not gone back into the archives far Enough to hear about the first time I wrote the podcast while I was in labor, on the 200th anniversary of MOR Day, or for those litners who have understandably forgotten, because it was two and a half years, almost two and a half years ago, we named our son Heber. According to the Social Security Administration website, Heber hasn't been the top 1000 most popular names in the US for over 100 years. And according to Name Census, which claims to use the Social Security Administration's data and its source, there were 29 baby boys given that name in 2023 and 33 baby boys given that name in 2024.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, that's an increase right there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, that's a dramatic increase.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. I mean, over 10% increase of heavers.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, it's like almost a 15% or more increase. I mean, there's dramatic.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

There's Hebers falling off the back of trucks Everywhere now.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Dr. Richard Leduc, MBA, PhD, I respectfully request you set a gambling line, or whatever it is called. Look, everything I know about gambling comes from this podcast. The 1979 Disney movie the North Avenue Irregulars, which is a hilarious reference that I had to look up. Everyone that was in that show has long since passed away. And of course, President Hinckley's 2005 conference address. I just want you to set an over under on people that have been named Heber. Do we think it's going up for another year or back down? I'm going to take the over on that, Garrett.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So over 33 or under 33?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm going to take 37 and a half.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, 37. So I'm going to take the under on 37 and a half. I think it's going to be. I think it's stabilizing. I think, you know, people run to Heber when they are worried about the economy.

[Katie Barnes]

It's like getting by gold. And so I, I'm going to say the number of Hebrews is under 37 and a half. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

When silver goes over 100 and gold at 5,000. Katie Barnes, door on.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

People just start.

[Katie Barnes]

They invest in names that make them feel comfortable.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's right. That's right. And some 19th century name. When, when it, when a, when a Hebrew is born, does he come with full chops?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, you know, well, they're born with mutton chops.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Katie Barnes]

So it's, it's right there and then a neck beard. They're not connected.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Mutton chops all the way down to.

[Katie Barnes]

The end of your chin.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But Then a neck beard that's not connected to the chops.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's, that's good. I didn't know they were all related to my Jewish relatives.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, they would have gotten along swimmingly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, yes, we. We are a hairy people. Um, also, I would love your thoughts on what percentage of parents who name their sons Heber are podcast listeners.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That number is a hundred percent.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so we already know that it's at least two.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right. So we're, we're, we're, we're sitting like 6% right now. Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Or. Yeah, it's kind of like I, I mean, there's a silent majority out there.

[Katie Barnes]

Of, of Hebrew naming parents that, that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Listen to the podcast, but they are.

[Katie Barnes]

Too bashful to let us know. So we're awaiting your emails.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She actually says, do we think it's 100%? Yes. Yes, Rebecca, I do think it's 100%. Perhaps my son's birth started not only a six part series on Moroni, but also a subconscious, nearly undetectable nudge among young parents having children to remember that the name Heber exists, leading to an increase of people using the name. Signing off, Rebecca P. S, as always, thank you for the good work that you're doing. I believe it's making a difference in building the kingdom of God. Carry on, carry on, carry on.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Awesome.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's very nice.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Awesome.

[Katie Barnes]

Thank you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

By the way, not kind of unrelated is that our live event in front of the studio audience is sold out. So we appreciate everybody that is signed up for that and there are no refunds. So thank you. And you know, I don't know, Garrett. I think there's something positive about being disappointed in life that kind of helps to stabilize other parts of your life and kind of a reality that sits in. And coming to our event will certainly do that and we look forward to seeing people there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. I assume that coming to the live event, while all already my waking nightmare.

[Katie Barnes]

Can now be shared with everyone else and it becomes a touchstone for the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Other things in your life because you might say something like, man, I never.

[Katie Barnes]

Want to go to another wedding reception ever again. It's the worst thing I could possibly go to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then you come to the live event and you're like, you know what?

[Katie Barnes]

Don't you have a cousin who's getting married and you can leave and go to it? So that's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's correct. This next email in the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag comes to us from Carrie. Subject. You got no money, you got no car, you got no woman. And there you are, second time writing in. And I almost feel bad because you get so many emails, which leads me to state the following. Anyway, number one, you're very good at the self deprecating humor. So good. In fact, the last time I wrote in, you actually read it on the podcast. And, and I thought, wow, that's cool. I'm telling no one, though.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah, we, we're good at self deprecating humor.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Not because we're good at it, because we're honest.

[Katie Barnes]

And so it's, it's easy to make. It's when, when you have such a large target.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, I mean, Garrett, like, like you, I, I study like, you know, reciprocity and implied referrals, and you study 19th century, you know, church history. Yeah, we're not two guys that are cutting it up at a party, you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Know, I mean, we just sang bars.

[Katie Barnes]

Of a 1997 Old Testament soundtrack, for crying out loud.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

From the seminary. Yeah, yeah, that's true. From the seminary videos from that year. Right. Wow, that's cool. I'm telling no one. And then my oldest son, who told me about the podcast in the first place while he was serving in the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission, had a former companion contact him and tell him, I think your mom's letter was on the podcast. My son stopped listening to the podcast when he came home. Well, that's, that's what they do. There's often, by the way, Garrett, the thought that we're doing this as a way to, to promote the podcast, and we get them when they're younger and then they come back and now they, they listen to the podcast. But we've learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all returned missionaries. As soon as they get a little bit of freedom, as they suppose, they immediately begin listen to the podcast.

[Katie Barnes]

Immediately stop listening to the podcast. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've got people that will.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Email us like 60 times from their.

[Katie Barnes]

Mission, and then the 60 first email is, I'm not listening to this anymore. Because other things exist.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The only example we have of a missionary coming home and still listening is President Abel.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, only because he became a 70.

[Katie Barnes]

Right after he got home.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So I'm reminded of when Rigdon came home from his mission in Peru and he's got the tagline for the show, which is, when you have nothing else to do, it's okay. Yeah, it's okay. But so he comes home. He's been home from his mission a week. We're on a tour, and we're recording there in Keokuk, Iowa, which is one of the many advantages of going on a tour with us is that we'll record in a. And kind of an empty space in Keokuk. It's a lot of fun.

[Katie Barnes]

To be fair.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was probably one of the most happening places that there was in Keokuk in 1894, for sure.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And first of all, the people of Keokuk are, they are a friend to the Idahoan. Like, they remind me of growing up in kind of a small Idaho town. Yeah, it's great. It's absolutely great. Right? And even the guy that we rent the space from, he's like, you know, there's better spaces. You sure you want to rent from me?

[Katie Barnes]

Are you sure? It is funny. You're like, yeah, no, we, we, we think the space will work out for us. I don't know, guys, you gotta find something better.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Believe me, we've looked. It reminds me, you know, we got an email this week from a friend of the show, Matt, who specifically talked about how he's from a very small town in Utah and. But he, he, you're going to have to respond to him because he asked specifically if you would be coming to the March Madness party. Oh yeah, Wings again this year.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh yeah, No, I wouldn't miss it. Yeah, I'm very excited about it.

[Katie Barnes]

But I think that that's something that Matt shares with us, is that when you come from a really small town, you're very. A rural place. There's a different sense about things than there is in, in a big city.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Not that, not that. Not that Spanish Fork is a big city, but you know what if, if I still lived in Shelly and there was a town the size of Spanish Fork next to me, this would be called the city.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, I mean, you got, you got the shout out at the Grammys. Post Malone's hat.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I know. I mean, come on, talk about being on the map if Post Malone is going to wear your hat. I mean, the only thing better is if he got it tattooed on the other side of his face.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so anyway, Rigdon home from his mission a week, his dad is there, so, and he's like, I'm gonna go back to the hotel. The very first shot at freedom. He's like, yeah, I'm fine.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And remember he said he was gonna go to the hotel to sleep. Okay, so this is a 21 year old.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

20.

[Katie Barnes]

He's 20. 20 year old guy.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He doesn't turn 21 till next week. He's 20.

[Katie Barnes]

Okay, this is a 20 year old kid. Has all kinds of energy, has no.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Job, he's got no money, he's got no car.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And at the time he had no woman either.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And there he was, Iowa.

[Katie Barnes]

And he had the option of listening to the podcast or going to bed at 8:30 at night, and he chose 8:30 at night.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

My son stopped listening to the podcast when he came home, apparently finding better things to do. Well, yeah, we're with you, Carrie. Like find his now wife. Oh, well, there you go. Well, that actually is productive. So, so good for her son. It was shortly after you read my last email on the podcast. You also stated that the martyrdom episode had millions of downloads. I don't, I don't know if I said millions, I might have said millions.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We have, we've had millions of downloads total though, among all our episodes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I think, I think we're at 7 million. Yeah, so, so.

[Katie Barnes]

And 6,999,000 of them are. Renee.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, I was flabbergasted because here I thought that Renee, Rachel's mom and Rex's elders quorum president were the only listeners and maybe some missionaries. Actually one of the things that is kind of a bummer. We've had a bunch of, you know, it's ebbs and flows because we put the missionary email in the Google Drive so they can only access it through their missionary email. But then when they get home that, you know, it falls off in a couple months. And so we've, we've lost probably about a thousand missionaries in the last couple months. So it's kind of a, it's very sad.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, we got like nine requests just in the last six hours.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I think we're, I think so. We're in missionary season, so now is the time for, for people to start sending as they start getting their calls. It's very exciting. I had no idea that the listening audience could be that large. You and us both. It makes me happy though, I think that there are so many similar minded people listening in. Which is why the tour is so much fun, by the way, because it's a bunch of like minded folks that take the gospel seriously, but not themselves. In December, my husband was asked last minute to teach Sunday school. We were driving home and I said he needed Christy's corner for background info. He is not a podcast listener. He doesn't just not listen to your podcast. He listens to zero podcasts.

[Katie Barnes]

For a second I thought you were gonna like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He doesn't just not listen to your podcast.

[Katie Barnes]

He actively tries to prevent other people from like that's how he's just slapping. Plus he's walking around shoving people.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. What do you. What are you listening to? Dan Patrick slaps it out of their hand. He ended up listening to the whole episode and his takeaway was. Oh, I haven't. I haven't pre read this, as is obvious by my reading, but I'm interested to see what her husband says. That one guy knows what he's talking about, but the other one. Why is he on there? That's hilarious.

[Katie Barnes]

Who do you think that one guy was? Was it you or me?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, that's so mean to say to you. You know what I mean? Like, you put so much time in. You know, I must.

[Katie Barnes]

It must have been an episode about implied referrals.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

What does that other guy do? That's a heck of a question. That is a heck of a question. I am so sorry if this is offensive. It is not. But I snort laughed when he said that because I've listened to almost all of your episodes. Again, thank you so much for the podcast. I am very picky about who I allow in my head via podcasts and social media in relation to the church. That it is why I've listened the first time. When my oldest was on his mission and told me about the church podcast not produced by the church, I had to vet the show. My son, who is still serving in the Oklahoma City. Oh, there you go. In the only true mission of Oklahoma. Look, there's Oklahoma is one of my favorite places. There's some great. If he's in Stillwater, you gotta let me know. I gotta take him to the garage. Garrett, you and I had dinner at the garage.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, a lot of different things. Put on those burgers. Let me put it down there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The Thai chili and peanut butter cheeseburger. Delicious.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, the peanut butter. I just can't do.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oklahoma has been kind to him, albeit so long he hasn't mentioned. Doesn't mention the church. For example, he and a companion chatted with a man and prayed with him in his front yard. After the prayer, the man said something to the effect of that was very nice. And then he noticed their name tags and all of a sudden wasn't nice anymore. It's much like the story you tell about Joseph Smith and the runaway stagecoach.

[Katie Barnes]

Right, Gareth?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You're a hero.

[Katie Barnes]

This is great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What's your name? So that we can have the congress people strike off a medal for you.

[Katie Barnes]

But when they found out I was Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophet, there was no more talk of honors.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I love the people of Oklahoma and it's unfortunate sometimes. People. Thanks for the endless hours of your time in producing the show. I hope you consider this podcast as something of a mission itself. You are serving by teaching and I appreciate that. As for the subject line, I think it was thrown down again in Sunday's episode. And since I believe I'm your same age, the song immediately got stuck in my head with all the. Thanks, Kerry. Your favorite California attorney, Litner.

[Katie Barnes]

Did you read the subject line?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I did at the beginning.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You got no money, got no car.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You got no woman in there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We only quote, you know, long since retired rappers.

[Katie Barnes]

That's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's that and I believe communist or. Well, just anarcho syndicalist.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Communists.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Or.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Or when you speak in my ward when we have a presiding. 70 atheists.

[Katie Barnes]

Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, no, no, he was an anarcho syndicalist.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Pardon me. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and not the happy Monty Python kind of, but the less.

[Katie Barnes]

The less happy guide.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So, Garrett, now, now I've got the music to play in to the intro here. Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm gonna take Indiana to win, but Miami to cover.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's the safer bet. I think that. That's the, the safer prediction. You're not betting.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, Indiana wins by six somehow. Six. I don't know, but six.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, Garrett, we have the Seattle Seahawks, the New England Patriots. It's a, it's a rematch of Super Bowl. Whatever the heck. What do you, what do you think? It's four and a half Seattle.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. So last I looked, Tom Brady wasn't coming out of retirement for the Patriots, so I'm going to go heavy with the Seahawks. You know, Drake B. Is a great story. Played great. He's very much exceeded. And obviously Vrabel is a great coach. But if you had to pick a defense, wouldn't you say the Seattle defense is better? Even though the Patriots have a great defense? Seattle is better.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, the, the, the, the Patriots team is kind of reminds me of the first year the, the Patriots won the super bowl, you know, where they had a really good defense and their, their offense just, you know, made it happen and did enough to get through, and so it's four and a half points. You think, you think Seattle for entertainment purposes only. They, they, they cover.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I think they cover.

[Katie Barnes]

I'm taking Seattle to win and Seattle to cover.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay. Seattle to win. Seattle cover. I'm taking New England. I'm taking New England to win.

[Katie Barnes]

And to cover.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm taking New England to win and cover. And I'm taking the under on the points. It's 45 and a half is the points. If. If it goes under on points, that's the kind of game I think that. That New England's going to need to win. Do you remember the game? What was it? The Rams. Was it the Rams, New England or who it was. It was a super boring Super Bowl. It was. It was really low scoring, not a lot of action. That's essentially what. What we're going to need here for New England to win.

[Katie Barnes]

What do you think the odds were.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

If you went back three years ago and put money on Sam Darnold being the quarterback for a Super bowl team?

[Katie Barnes]

If you went back three years ago.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What do you think those odds would have been?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, he was a journeyman. I mean, first of all, he looks like a Lego fireman.

[Katie Barnes]

First, he looks exactly like a Lego fireman.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

First of all, he looks like he's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Running for city council in Ireland.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

His dad was the mall or his grandfather was the Marlboro Man. Were you aware of this?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, well, how many?

[Katie Barnes]

I thought there were tons of them.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, yeah, they went through them pretty quick. I don't know what happened to them.

[Katie Barnes]

It's weird. Just some odd illness.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Yeah. Boy, that's. That's so. I mean, you've got. You have some Super Bowls where there's quite the. It's kind of lopsided.

[Katie Barnes]

Right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Those are always kind of interesting. I mean, the one that stands out the most was the. The Giants. Patriots. That was 2008, where they. The Patriots were favored by 12 and they lost. I think that. I think that New England. I think Vrabel is, you know, he's a really good coach. Turn the team around. May's good. He's serviceable. Their defense is good. I think that they. They. They cover, and I think they win outright.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And it's under.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Speaking of robbers, the Patriots.

[Katie Barnes]

We.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

As I was prepping for this, I.

[Katie Barnes]

Found a quote that doesn't directly relate.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

To our spirit world conversation, but it kind of did. So I thought I would share it. This isn't about gaddy and robbers, but this is a. A sermon from 1880 that Wilford Woodruff is giving, and he just provides a perspective. I mean, if you're looking for someone who understands the differences behind the veil, you know what it's like when you die, what those on the other side are doing. I mean, this is the prophet that had many of the early Founding Fathers and many other great religionists come and visit him. Right. So, I mean, he has this vision of them anyway and does their work for them. But I thought this is a profound way to think about the difference between the spirit world and this world. He said death was a separation of friends here and a meeting on the other side of the veil. Births are a separation in the spirit world, while it is a joy here. So if you think about that, I've.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Never once thought about that, actually.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

If you think about the fact that you're there now and you've been with these spirit brothers and sisters millennia for trillions of years, there is no beginning that there is some sadness when they leave to come to Earth because you're separated from them now.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

In the documentary Saturday's warriors, it kind of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow, okay. No, no.

[Katie Barnes]

And that's a 15 yard penalty. Illegal use of the word documentary, Richard.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so, no, I mean, but that is an interesting perspective that I had, which thing I had never before thought.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Katie Barnes]

I mean, to think about the spirit world.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And I think what that quote goes to is just how similarly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

When you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Read Joseph, when you read Brigham, when you read Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, when you read these early prophets and apostles, one of the things they really stress is that the lack of change that takes place when we die. And I know that that is completely countercultural. You know, you don't generally think as a Latter Day Saint that you are some kind of countercultural, that you're probably.

[Katie Barnes]

Not sitting there thinking that, you know, you're a hippie and you're like, it's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The government, you know that. But as a Latter Day Saint, when it comes to Christianity, you really are countercultural because every Christian out there really believes that there is going to be a massive change that takes place when they die.

[Katie Barnes]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Because we're all sinners. But if we've had faith in Jesus, then we're going to be changed. We're not going to be corrupt still, we're going to be something good.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So I substituted teaching gospel doctrine on Sunday, which thing I assume I will never be asked back to do.

[Katie Barnes]

Wait, was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Was the bishop or any other representative there?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, but it got back to him.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, so it got back. So it was bad enough that someone.

[Katie Barnes]

Had to go seek out the bishop.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And say, hey, you know what?

[Katie Barnes]

Richard's teaching in here. Right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, it got back. But one of the things that I did is, so, I mean, there's a lot of radical doctrine in the Book of Mormon, but if you read the Book of Mormon. There's also a lot of stuff that you read and you're like, oh, okay, yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah, we believe that. Now there's plenty, you know, you want to steer clear of, you know, Second Nephi, Chapter two. But there's. But there's a lot of stuff you read in the Book of Mormon. And it's. Whatever. My point was, is to say that while there's some. There's quite a bit in the Book of Mormon. I showed the Book of Moses and all of the things in the first couple of chapters of the Book of Moses, and it was. To your point. You talk about it all the time. I just stole from you, much like Elder Abel did. But, I mean, it's dramatic, to be sure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. I mean, it's such a stark difference. And, you know, while we love our Christian brothers and sisters and we share many beliefs with them, boy, the places where there really is a stark separation, they surround, obviously, the premortal life because no one else believes in it. The purpose of this life and the afterlife, because those are things that are different based upon the revelations that Joseph Smith received. Brigham Young talking about this.

[Katie Barnes]

At a.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Funeral in 1871, talks about this kind of difference between the two worlds. So, again, this is, you know, it's at a funeral, so it makes sense. There has been considerable said and well said with regard to our existence. And I will say this. As for the gospel of the Son of God, it is here. As for the priesthood, it is here. As for the keys of the priesthood, they are here and they are enjoyed by this people called Latter Day Saints. A few words to my friends. To preach or talk to the dead. I have never undertaken to. I talk to the living on such occasions as this. We are assembled this morning to pay our last respects to the remains of a beloved sister. And we meet here with cheerfulness. It is not quite three years since we met in this room to pay our respects to the remains of this young lady's father. She has now gone to try the realities of another existence, to another department of the life and lives that God has bestowed upon his children. This life is preparatory to a more exalted state of existence. We have a certain amount of intelligence here, but in the life to come, we shall have more. We shall see the life and growth of the human family. And to those ignorant of the object of our creation, the process presents a very strange phenomenon. But to those who do understand, it is rational, plain and easy to be understood. And in fact, they see it as necessary that it should be just as it is. You step into a room and you perhaps see a mother attending a sick child, a few weeks or a month old and helpless and totally dependent on others as that infant is. It is no more so than we have all been. For every member of the human family passes through the same process that we behold day after day in our houses and in the houses of our neighbors. And then a little later on in the sermon, he says there is as much variation in these respects as there is in the physiognomy of the human family. Hence, when disease seizes our systems, we do not know what to do. And death often overcomes us and we bury our friends. This is hard for us, but what of it? We will follow them. They will not come back to us. The time will come when they will come back, but that will be when Jesus comes. We shall be with them then, but we shall perhaps sleep in the dust long before that time. That is, many of us, perhaps some in this house will live until Jesus and the saints come. But I expect to sleep. I have no promise of living until then. I can say with regard to parting with our friends and going ourselves that I've been near enough to understand eternity so that I've had to exercise a great deal more faith to desire to live than I ever exercised in my whole life to live. The brightness and glory of the next apartment is inexpressible. It is not encumbered with this clog of dirt that we are carrying around here.

[Katie Barnes]

So I believe he's making a reference to our bodies as a log of dirt.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Now, as someone who worked in potato fields, I mean, it is a. Dirt clods are ever present in the furrowed fields and you throw them at people, basically your brothers. But yeah, I mean, I'm going to.

[Katie Barnes]

Say you throw them at signs or you throw them.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know, if I said animals, which I never would have done, then people would be upset. But don't worry, I would never throw in an animal.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Brothers.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah, and your friends.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Does my brother count as an animal? Technically, yes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But he has the power of rational thought, so he could have dodged.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's his fault.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I mean, why are you standing.

[Katie Barnes]

There as I throw? There are very few people listening who have any idea what a dirt clod.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

From a field is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, that's not possible.

[Katie Barnes]

You think?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, no, no. Latter Day Saints are. They're from. I mean, I mean, I mean, if you've only lived in New York City. I mean, come on.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's not possible.

[Katie Barnes]

I'm just Saying that Brigham Young comparing us to a clog of dirt.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's funny.

[Katie Barnes]

It is not uncovered with this clog of dirt that we're carrying around here. So that we invent, when we advance in years, we be stubbing along and to be careful lest we fall down.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We see our youth even frequently stubbing their toes and falling down. But yonder, how different they move with ease and like lightning. If we want to visit Jerusalem or this or that or another place, I presume we are permitted. If we desire, there we are looking at its streets. If we want to behold Jerusalem as it was in the days of the Savior, or if we want to see the Garden of Eden as it was when it was created, there we are. And we see it as it existed spiritually, for it was created first spiritually and then temporally and spiritually, it still remains. So, first of all, as a devoted.

[Katie Barnes]

Student of history.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This is awesome, right? That apparently, in the next life, I would have the ability to be like.

[Katie Barnes]

I want to see the Battle of Waterloo right before Blucher attacks the French flank.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, and you'd be able to see it and witness it. I mean, maybe. He didn't say that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He didn't.

[Katie Barnes]

He didn't think I would waste this power on something vulgar. He's like, oh, you could see what Jerusalem was like in the days of the Savior.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then I was like, battle of Waterloo.

[Katie Barnes]

I want to see. I. I just really want to figure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Out, you know, what was going on inside Washington's head on the Battle of Long island.

[Katie Barnes]

That I would.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I would go to the. The Michigan, North Carolina game when Chris Weber calls the timeout that they didn't have.

[Katie Barnes]

Would you try to stop him?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I would. Yeah, that's what I would. I wouldn't try to stop Abraham Lincoln's assassin. I try to be like, hey, Chris, you are out of timeout.

[Katie Barnes]

We are out of time. If you call a timeout, It's a technical val.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's what I would do if I had that.

[Katie Barnes]

Well, but it is pretty fascinating, right? You don't even have to get a DeLorean. You don't even have to get it up to 88. We could visit those places, and when.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

There, we may behold the earth as at the dawn of creation, or we may visit any city we please that exists upon its surface. If we wish to understand how they are living here on these western lands or in China, we are there. In fact, we are like the light of morning, or I will not say the electric fluid, but its operations on the wires. God has revealed some little things with regard to his movements and his power. And the operation and motion of lightning furnish a fine illustration of the ability and power of the Almighty. If you could stretch a wire from this room around the world until the two ends nearly meet again and were to apply a battery to one end, if the electrical conditions were perfect, the effect of the touch would pass with such inconceivable velocity that it would be felt at the other end of the wire in the same moment. This is what the faithful saints are coming to. They will possess this power. And if they wish to visit different planets, they will be there. If the Lord wished to visit his children, here, he is here. If he wished to send one of his angels to the earth to speak to some of his children, he is here. When we pass into the spirit world, we shall possess a measure of this power. So this is by degrees. One of the things that I think is not fully comprehended is what the stage is going to be like when we are in the spirit world as a righteous person, as someone who's, you know, kept the faith. But I'm in the spirit world, but I'm not yet resurrected. Now, we did read last week, you.

[Katie Barnes]

Know, that Joseph Smith's gonna have a bunch of evil spirits, you know, haranguing him and that he has the power to disperse them. What were you gonna say, Richard?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This is fascinating. I've never. I've never heard this before. This is. This is what a cool concept, this idea of. But of course, that makes. That makes so much sense how God and Jesus can visit wherever. Of course they could.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, that's part of. That's the best part about being all powerful, is that you're all powerful.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But he's explaining it, though. It's kind of. It's kind of interesting, right? He's kind of getting into it the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Way he's trying to describe it, right? So the power he goes on, the power the faithful will possess then will far exceed that of the spirit world. So he's showing it by degrees. So. So when you first. If you're righteous, when you first go into the spirit world, you will have an increased measure of power than you do here. And I think that's the reason why, you know, he and others will say, look, Satan is not going to have any power. The evil spirits aren't have any power over the righteous in the spirit world, even though they haven't been resurrected yet. Right? Because they have greater power, even though they haven't gotten everything yet. But Then after they're resurrected, the power of the faithful will far exceed that of the spirit world. But that enjoyed in the spirit world is so far beyond this life as to be inconceivable without the spirit of revelation. So apparently, there is a manifestation difference in your spiritual power just by being a righteous person going into the spirit world.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, that's in the doctrine covenants. Right. Have so much more advantage in the world.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. That whatever principle of knowledge you obtain to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That you have that advantage in the next world. And that kind of leads to. You know, we talked about this before, that the. That Brigham Young at least believed. Now, the Church doesn't have an established doctrine on this. Okay. You can actually quote apostles and prophets on both sides of this idea about eternal progression that would lead between kingdoms. Right. But Brigham Young believed that you could progress between kingdoms, but that it would just take so much longer because you didn't make those and keep those covenants here. Right. So Brigham at least expresses to Wilford Woodruff this idea that you actually could progress eternally. Now, again, that is not the doctrine of the church. The church's doctrine is, we don't know.

[Katie Barnes]

That's the church's doctrine that hasn't been revealed.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But at least Wilford Woodruff has that quote from Brigham Young in his journal. So what will it be like in the next life? In the spirit world, we are free from all of our pains and enjoy life, glory, and intelligence. And we have the Father speak to us and Jesus speak to us, and angels speak to us, and we shall enjoy the society of the just and the pure who are in the spirit world until the resurrection. So I know last couple of episodes.

[Katie Barnes]

Some people have felt very uncomfortable. So there's like a whole bunch of gaddy ant murderers that are just, like, wandering around me, especially if I'm at.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

A McDonald's in Centerville or. But one of the things that Brigham is expressing here is that when you go into the next world, you do have communion with Jesus and with the Father and you have more power anyway, that you won't be beholden to these evil spirits in the other world. So if that was one of the things people were worried about, that's part of the reason why I wanted to share this. Let me conclude what he says to her friends. I will say to Sister Spencer and to the relatives and friends of the deceased, dry up your tears. Live your religion. We have nothing to sorrow for here without it is for sinful conduct. I say also to my young brothers and sisters, live your religion. Try to fill up the measure of your creation and usefulness. You have a work to do to prepare for a more exalted sphere than this. Outsiders have a great deal to say about the trials of our females he's making, because this is when they're practicing polygamy. Are the trials of our females to compare with the sorrows that the wicked world have to pass through? Not by any means. Their sorrow and grief are unto death. Our trials are to make us perfect and to prepare us for the reward of the just. So he goes on to talk about, you know, none of us really know when we will die. You don't know. We have no lease on our lives, he says, who knows? But some of us will meet with an accident going from this house, and we'll be in eternity an hour from this time.

[Katie Barnes]

This is the reason why you always pray.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Help us get home safely. I was going to because Brigham's like.

[Katie Barnes]

I don't know, probably some of you are going to wreck on the way home.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You will not drop off. There is here. You will stay there. Except those who were destroyed by the second death. Well, then, what is this world? I am sorry to see anyone so enveloped in ignorance as to see nothing else but the enjoyment of this world or to hear them say, oh, this is all that I can ask for. I want my riches and my finery, and I may enjoy the society of my rich friends and be happy. And I want to lavish upon myself and my family all the heart can wish for. The whole wicked world is in this condition of mind, no matter who they are, from kings, queens, emperors on their thrones, down to the laborer and his humble cot. But true happiness is unknown amongst them. They do not enjoy themselves, and all their pleasures leave a pang or a sting behind. The rich and great may pass a few hours in visiting their friends, or they may glut themselves with the luxury of the earth. But all this leaves a sting behind. The humble, faithful saints care not for this. They know this earth is not their permanent abiding place. And when they look forward to eternity, the prospect is bright and glorious. Yes, there is my home. There is my family, There are my friends. There is my heaven, there is my father, and I am going to dwell with him to all eternity. These are the hopes and aspirations of every heart and the expressions of every faithful saint. And they will learn more and more and be exalted from one degree of glory to another until they become gods, even the sons of God. Then what is this earth in its present condition? Nothing but A place in which we may learn the first lessons towards exaltation, and that is obedience to the gospel of the Son of God. So that's a pretty cool sermon, isn't it? I often think, you know, Joseph did this a lot when he spoke at a funeral orations.

[Katie Barnes]

He.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He felt that the. The best way to help someone feel better about the things that had happened was to remind them of what the purpose of this life is. The plan of salvation, as comforting as it is when you're drawing circles on the board, is far more comforting when you're asking those great questions of life.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Why?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Why is there suffering? Why is there death? Why am I separated from people I care about? And frankly, I know that myself, so I'll only indict myself. But I'm sure others might feel the same way. We take for granted some of the questions we never ask because we never needed to. Because of the power that is in the revelations that Joseph Smith received and the prophets that followed him. Because we have the additional scripture that we have, we don't ask the same questions. Latter Day Saints, believing Latter Day Saints, I mean, obviously you're like Bill the adulterer. You might probably sit around wondering.

[Katie Barnes]

I mean, but.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, he's got a testimony. He struggles.

[Katie Barnes]

He struggles.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Katie Barnes]

Well, you know where they are, but don't meet Bill by yourself. The.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Latter Day Saints, we don't.

[Katie Barnes]

Sit.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And ask the question, what is the purpose of this life? I don't think we appreciate how incredibly liberating that is. That, yes, we struggle. We have all kinds of things we can't answer. And we can ask questions like, why did God allow this horrible thing to happen? Why didn't God intervene? We have all kinds of questions we can ask as well. But a believing Latter Day Saint knows who they are. And not just as a creation of God, but as a child of heavenly parents that has the same potential to become as those parents are. A believing Latter Day Saint does not see the purpose of this life as meaningless and the suffering that takes place. A believing Latter Day Saint sees this life, as Brigham said, as a stepping stone towards eternity. In another funeral sermon that Brigham Young gave, he said, it has been the idea of many that the Spirit goes directly to God who gave it. That's from Ecclesiastes, right? Does it remain there? Go. On the great battlefields of the past, if they could be seen. The spirits of the slain are hovering around the dust. They stay about this earth until there is another call for them. The kingdom and place where Brother Spencer is is called the dwell he will be in. Every departed spirit is subject to the laws that govern the spirit world. What do we gain by being faithful to the gospel of the Son of God? We gain life and salvation. Salvation in this world and the world to come. When they leave the body, those spirits are free from the power of the enemy. There are wicked men in the spirit world. So again, reiteration that in the spirit world, not just the spirits that fell from heaven, men who have died who are, I guess we might say, Gadianton esque. There are wicked men in the spirit world. Millions of those in the spirit world will have the privilege of receiving the gospel in the spirit that they may be judged according to men in the flesh. And no doubt many will reject the gospel.

[Katie Barnes]

There.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison. The faithful elders who leave this world will preach to the spirits in prison in the spirit world. In that world, there are millions and millions to every elder who leaves here. And yet every spirit will be preached to that has had a tabernacle on this earth and become accountable. This is the plan of salvation. Jesus will never cease his work until all are brought under the enjoyment of a kingdom in the mansion of his Father, where there are many kingdoms and many glories to suit the works and faithfulness of all men who have lived on earth. Some will obey the celestial law and receive of its glory. Some will abide the terrestrial and some the telestial. Others will receive a glory. So he's going to go on and quote that. But this idea that this earth life is a preparatory thing is. Is a big part of it now. I know we're running out of time again and I told you it was only going to be part of it. And I lied that, you know. Do you remember that. That song? I said I loved you, but I lied. You remember that?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, I do. Yeah.

[Katie Barnes]

Sorry.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I was singing it on him.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He was overcome with joy by mentioning that song.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I was so excited about it. Yes, I. I am familiar with that song. What's the. You gonna sing a couple.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Am I gonna. So you're not familiar with it?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, no, I just.

[Katie Barnes]

I.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Every time I hear it, I, you know, I whistle a little bit, you know. I said I love you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I can't sing it. It's very high pitched, you know.

[Katie Barnes]

Said I loved you But I lied.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Because this is more than love I feel inside, you know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's pretty good. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Said I loved you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, that's great. You're a regular Aaron Neville over there.

[Katie Barnes]

Said I loved you But I was broke anyway. There was a lot that we. We still want to cover, but to the point of the question in the first place.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I know. Look, we use the gadget and robbers. I mean, frankly, they use people their whole lives. So I just used them as a.

[Katie Barnes]

Vehicle to talk about the spirit world, the great things that have been revealed about the spirit world.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's not always just a tangent.

[Katie Barnes]

Sometimes I use questions as vehicles to do what I already wanted to do. If that isn't apparent to you yet.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It will be, unless you're a missionary who's about to stop listening to the podcast. So this is an 1861 sermon that Brigham is talking about. We are not destroyed. But are the Latter Day Saints preparing themselves for the calamities that are coming upon the earth now? This is right as the civil war's breaking out, right? Or are they covetous? There is no trait in the character of men. What the devil? But what the devil, the opposer of all good understands. Our common foe is an ingenious workman. He's a master at his business. Bunyan speaks of a city that was perfectly given up to idolatry and needed only one devil to watch the whole of it. This is not. This is not Paul Bunyan.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, I assume.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Although if he says the. If he says Blue my ox, then.

[Katie Barnes]

I'm gonna know if he said.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Or Babe.

[Katie Barnes]

Babe by blue ox. Yes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Babe my blue ox. Yes. Yes. Thank you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Not the same thing as.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Very different.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Isn't being named Blue, Which I think means you've been watching too many blues clues.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, I have, actually.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. But one saint, a poor old man.

[Katie Barnes]

Walking through the streets required a score.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Of devils to watch him. The city was already in possession of the evil one and it needed no one. It needed no care or watching. There are scores of evil spirits here. Spirits of the old Gadianton robbers, some of them who inhabited these mountains and used to go into the south to afflict the Nephites. There are millions of those spirits in the mountains, and they are ready to make us covetous if they can. They are ready to lead astray every man and woman that wishes to be a Latter Day Saint. This may seem strange to some of you, but you will see them as soon as your spirits are unlocked from these tabernacles and you are in the spirit world, and you will there have to contend against evil spirits as we have to contend against wicked persons here. How about that for throwing something down?

[Katie Barnes]

Jeez.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So he says there are millions now that. That Sermon, you know, for the Cutlers was not given in Centerville.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Where was that one given?

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah, that one's in the tabernacle in Salt Lake. So. So, I mean, apparently there's a bunch of gaddy Antons there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But, you know, it's back to this, this point of where that, you know, the question was, you know, where does that even come from? Well, the reason why people say it is because Brigham Young taught it multiple.

[Katie Barnes]

Times, and it was also taught by Heber C. Kibble.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And so people talk about it and look, I, I don't want to get into like, oh, what are the evil spirits doing? Where are they? And, and you know, how many are following me around? Well, apparently they don't need to follow me around because they've already got me.

[Katie Barnes]

Doing whatever they want.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

So. So they just, just move right on past it. They're like, do we need to spend.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Some time on Garrett?

[Katie Barnes]

Nope, We've already got. We've got zero evil spirits aside to him, and he's already, he's already talking about sports betting picks on a church related podcast.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But there's, there's one more that I want to share again, because Brigham Young talks about it. I really should have started with this one because this is really. Well, I mean, I guess they're all kind of out of order. This is in 1867, so this is after the Civil War. And I realize we're probably like way over on time. Are we way over on time, Richard? Yeah, I mean, I mean, how many of you have just hit unsubscribe to the podcast?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, we're getting those numbers. Even though we're recording this days before the numbers are rolling in. It's. It's pretty, it's pretty dramatic.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I mean, we've lost all of.

[Katie Barnes]

Our missionary listeners, even though we, we. Richard did.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He did an upgrade.

[Katie Barnes]

So instead of having like 15 Google.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Drives, he was able to put them all in one.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so that's. So that's actually, it's funny you say that. I was on. The reason I was on mute is I was actually working with Brady to help get this all set up. Brady's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So it's still not working?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, no, no, no. He was able to fix my incompetence and was able to get it. So that's, that's the back and forth sounds that imessage makes on a computer is distracting, which is why it was on mute when you were singing the Bryan Adams song. Was it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is it Bryan Adams who said.

[Katie Barnes]

I said I love You.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But I probably.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know what? We'll get the crack research staff on that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's gotta be. It's gotta be that. I mean, if our wives were here, you know, our wives used to sleep through our recordings.

[Katie Barnes]

They've gotten to the point where now they're completely ambivalous.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, my gosh, it's Michael Bolton. Not even close.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I was gonna say I don't think.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It'S Brian Adams, but yeah, yeah, Michael. Michael Bolton. Because it's more than love. I feel inside. That's the issue.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. No, I said I loved you, but I lied. Yeah, I just. Like I said, we're gonna be done. I'm not yet. Got one more to say. This is in 1867 that Brigham's talking about how. Look, you need to do what's right. You don't need to. You don't need to only do things if you're commanded to do it. I say this to you that you may understand that I feel just as patient and just as kind towards Latter Day Saints as a man's heart can feel. I'm careful to take every precaution in directing their steps to the possession of eternal life in the presence of God, that none may be lost. My course is not to scold, but to persuade and entreat the people to do their duty, holding before them the reward of faithfulness. It requires all the care and faithfulness which we can exercise in order to keep the faith of the Lord Jesus. For there are invisible agencies around us in sufficient numbers to encourage the slightest disposition that they may discover in us, to forsake the true way and to fan into a flame the slightest spark of discontent and unbelief. Now, I think just about every person listening has experienced this to the point where when you're talking with a good friend or family member and they say something in a tone or in a way critical of the prophet or of the church or of its history, and it's the first time you hear it. It's that spark. But how quickly if you feed oxygen on that doubting flame or that critical flame, does it come to consume the entire person? It's funny, the other day on social media, someone posted something to the effect of, I don't understand why people leave the church have to spend their entire lives just attacking it. If it's not true, just go and do something else. Why do you spend all your time on it? Why are you constantly posting negative, hateful things about it? Right. And I think later, St. Simon's other question one of the people who responded to him, attacked him and said, that's wrong. You're just making up what people do. Leave the church. I've left the church and I don't do that. So I clicked on that person's profile.

[Katie Barnes]

And read a half dozen of their last posts, which were all anti Mormon posts and links to other things.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So it was very funny that his.

[Katie Barnes]

Response was, you're a liar. People who leave the church don't do that legitimately. This guy's last six months, like every post is how much he hates the church.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So I mean, maybe not everybody does.

[Katie Barnes]

It, but some people do it. At least you do anyway.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But I think that's an important way to think about both our testimony and unbelief. There are sparks there and whatever fuel you decide to give it, that's what's going to grow. I meet with people all the time who, who feel like they've lost their testimony and all of them, all of them have stopped studying the scriptures and the words of the living prophet as much as they are studying anti Mormon subreddits, Letter to the CES director and things like that. If you want to maintain your faith, it's not just between you and God. What Brigham Young and these other quotes we shared. Look, there are countless evil spirits. Some that fell with Satan and some that have passed away from this life. The Gadian's of old that are desperately trying to destroy your faith. When you give place to that disbelief and then you fuel it and you fan is actually not a surprise that what you end up with is disbelief because it's actually what you fuel. Brigham goes on. The spirits of the ancient Gadian are around us. You may see battlefield after battlefield scattered over the American continent where the wicked have slain the wicked. Their spirits are watching us continually for an opportunity to influence us to do evil or to make us decline in the performance of our duties. And I will defy any man on earth to be more gentlemanly and bland in his manners than the master spirit of all evil. We call him the Devil, a gentleman so smooth and so oily that he can almost deceive the very elect. We have been baptized by men having authority of the holy priesthood of the Son of God. And consequently we have power over him which the rest of the world does not possess. And all who possess the power of the priesthood have the power and right to rebuke those evil spirits. When we rebuke those evil powers and they obey not, it is because we do not live so as to have the power of God, which is our privilege to have. If we do not live for this privilege and right, then we are under condemnation. So here again, Brigham is making this clear statement of the powers of evil that are arrayed against us. So we'll leave this topic and move on to another topic next week. I mean, maybe. I mean, frankly, we'll do whatever.

[Katie Barnes]

But.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I really think that one of the takeaways from this is understanding how very real the spirit world is, understanding how very real the evil spirits that follow Satan are and their constant desperate desire to influence you, to lose your faith and to commit acts of evil. But you can't despair, right? You can't be like, oh, there's nothing.

[Katie Barnes]

I can do because I'm surrounded by a bunch of gaddy Antons.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, the God has promised us that we have power over those spirits, that we have the ability to resist that temptation. Of course we all sin. Of course we fall down lots. But we can also get back up again. Remember who you are. You are a spirit child of heavenly parents who did not follow Satan. You are someone who said, I know that it's going to be terrible. I know that it's going to be awful. I know that I'm going to struggle. I know that I'm going to suffer. But if that's the only way that I can become like my heavenly father, then I'm going to go to earth and have a mortal life so that I can learn and grow to become like my heavenly father. Satan will never have that ability, and so he tries to destroy your potential. So remember, it's not just thoughts that pop into your head. There really is an enemy, an actual being from the unseen world as Joseph Smith described. But you can have power over those evil spirits, whether it's a million gaddy antins or one, you know, one that's following you around by. By exercising your faith, repenting of our sins, and seeking to put first the kingdom of God and nothing else. God will bless us and protect us. So thanks so much for joining us. And for those of you who hated this topic, don't worry, we'll find others that you'll hate more.

[Narrator]

Thank you for listening to Joseph Smith and the Restoration, a Standard of Truth podcast production by Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. Join us for our next episode. For our other productions, please visit standardoftruth.com.