Running Out of Matter with Michelle Thaller

Summary

StarTalk Radio — "Running Out of Matter" with Michelle Thaller

Host: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Co-host: Chuck Nice
Guest: Dr. Michelle Thaller (Astrophysicist and Science Communicator)
Release Date: July 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this vibrant and insightful "Cosmic Queries" episode, Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-host Chuck Nice welcome renowned astrophysicist Dr. Michelle Thaller. Together, they field thought-provoking audience questions about the fate of matter in the universe, quantum mechanics, the precarious state of scientific institutions, gravitational waves, and the wonders of neutron stars. The conversation is threaded with humor, accessible metaphors, candid reflections on science careers, and a passionate advocacy for science in society.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michelle Thaller's Ongoing Journey & NASA's Current Challenges

[03:04]

• Michelle recently retired from NASA Goddard and now speaks, lectures, and defines herself as a "freelance astrophysicist."
• Explains the difference between NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies (Earth/Climate science, former home in Seinfeld's "restaurant" building in NYC) and Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland (largest NASA facility, builds satellites/telescopes).
• [06:45] Goddard employs thousands and could be the world's second-largest space program if it left NASA.

Budget Cuts & Brain Drain

• [07:02] Michelle describes recent tumultuous funding and the resulting loss of top scientists and engineers (“Europe is cherry picking us” – [09:52], Tyson).
• Early-career scientists on probation lost jobs; instability is pushing talent abroad.
• [10:08] “One of the physics journals… had a full-page ad from the country of Denmark saying, ‘come to a place where facts still matter.’” — Michelle Thaller

NASA's True Cost and Value

• [11:09] NASA’s science budget: ~$6 billion/year (~$30 billion total for all programs), “a nothing burger when it comes to a budget.”
• Science missions produce 2-3 times the economic return. Human spaceflight is the major cost.
• [13:20] Neil’s “visibility budget” joke: “The visibility of NASA is so huge compared to their actual budget. No one would guess…4/10 of 1%…That’s the budget we should give them.”

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2. Quantum Mechanics & the Identity of a Photon

[19:00]
Question: Is a reflected or absorbed/reemitted photon the "same" photon or a new quantum entity?

• [19:58] Michelle: “This is something that is a question of mine... I only recently came to a better understanding because of…Veritasium…”
• Explains that in vacuum, light travels at c (speed of light). In media, interaction with atoms delays its journey, so its group velocity is lower.
• Photons are electromagnetic waves, not just billiard balls.
• [22:06] Neil builds on this, highlighting that redshift (change in energy/wavelength) means photons “experience” cosmic expansion.
• [25:59] Michelle: “The speed that we measure is a combination of the speed of the photon in vacuum, and the oscillations of everything around it…”
• [26:51] Tyson: “If the photon hits a surface and reflects, some of its energy is imparted as momentum to that surface. And that’s why solar sails work at all.”
• They vote: Each interaction creates a new quantum state—“I’m voting for a completely different photon here.” — Tyson, [27:23]

Comic Relief:

• [27:39] Chuck Nice: “I wish I had the same properties…so I could just tell people I owe money, ‘talk to Reflection Chuck.’ That’s not me anymore.”

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3. Will the Universe Run Out of Matter? (Thermodynamics & Cosmic Fate)

[28:17]

• [29:07] Michelle: “Yes…the universe is slowing down in the sense that it’s not so much that matter can’t be destroyed. It can; it can be converted into energy…E=mc²…”
• Over time, high-energy photons are converted to lower-energy ones: the universe “runs down" to a state where only low-energy photons remain—a state called “heat death."
• [31:41] Michelle uses the analogy: “Draw a squiggly line on a piece of elastic and pull it—the wavelength gets longer, energy drops.”
• [32:03] Chuck connects this to Earth’s greenhouse effect: “High energy comes in…becomes lower energy and a longer wavelength, which is trapped by greenhouse gases…”

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4. Gravitational Waves & Space-Time Curvature

[38:00] Question: Can intersecting gravitational waves create a field as if a celestial body were present?

• [39:35] Michelle: “Oh, I love gravitational waves…When I was a postdoc at Caltech, I was like, ‘they’re never going to detect these bastards…’”
• [41:28] On LIGO’s precision: Measuring changes equivalent to the width of a human hair across four light years.
• Notable Quote:

  “It was the equivalent of the distance between us and the nearest star…varying by the thickness of a human hair.”
  — Michelle Thaller, [41:28]

• Explains that overlapping gravitational waves do interfere, like ripples in water, but the effects are minuscule, undetectable (“not a solution for dark matter” – [48:30], Thaller).

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5. Neutron Stars & Fast Radio Bursts (FRBs)

[51:22] Question: Why do high energy events like FRBs reach us as low-energy (radio) waves?

• [53:41] Michelle on neutron stars: “Neutron stars are only about 20 miles across…twice the mass of the sun packed into 20 miles…The curvature of space and time is so extreme, you can see behind a neutron star as well as in front; the light curves around it…”
• [54:47] Explains synchrotron radiation: “Electrons spiral around a magnetic field...just by spinning around, that's a form of acceleration.”
• Neutron stars emit X-rays/gamma rays (high energy), but also radio via synchrotron processes; multiple “flavors” of emissions.
• Impactful fact:

  “In 2007…an event blew off a measurable amount of our atmosphere…we traced it back to a neutron star…about 50,000 light years away…the crust shifted by a centimeter, gave off so much energy…blew off a bunch of our atmosphere.”
  — Michelle Thaller, [56:42]

• Chuck: “I could have lived without that information.”

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6. Big Hopeful “Unlikely” Possibilities in Science

[57:24]

• Brett from Ireland asks: “What unlikely possibility do you hope is true?”
  • Neil: “Finding macroscopic life crawling out of Mars’s subsurface—unlikely, but cool!” [58:14]
  • Michelle: Hopes Webb will observe the first generation of stars, which may be entirely different due to denser dark matter environment after the Big Bang.

    "What was that first generation of stars like? My guess is they're going to be huge...and I'm wondering if they're going to work really differently because there's more dark matter in them." — Michelle, [61:10]

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7. Inspiration for Young Scientists, Especially Girls

[62:03]

• Alyssa from Tennessee: “As such a prominent female figure…what message for little girls?”
• Michelle:

  "You're already the right type of person to be a scientist…Math and physics did not come quickly to me…It took me some time. I just loved it so much…Paying attention to your own curiosity and not being discouraged when you don't get something very, very quickly…It's a cultural, you know, bullshit, that science requires a certain type of brilliant...person. So, you know, you're enough." [64:31]

• Neil: Ambition and persistence matter more than arriving fast—motivation matters most ([65:43]).
• Michelle: Remedial math to astrophysicist—just stick with your passion.

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Memorable Quotes

• Michelle Thaller, on the state of U.S. science:
  "Science research in the United States is a low budget item...I mean, we do not spend a lot of money on this already...they do it all for under $6 billion a year." [10:15]

• Neil deGrasse Tyson, on NASA’s budget:
  “The visibility of NASA is so huge compared to their actual budget. No one would guess...they’re getting 4/10 of 1%...[That] is the budget we should give them.” [13:17]

• Michelle Thaller, on the wonder of neutron stars:
  "The neutron star group at Goddard said that neutron stars are far more interesting than black holes...With neutron stars, you got the freakin’ thing right in front of you." [53:49]

• Chuck Nice, on photons:
  “I wish I had the same properties…so I could just tell people I owe money, ‘talk to Reflection Chuck.’ That’s not me anymore.” [27:39]

• Michelle Thaller, on confidence and learning in science:
  "I spent way too much time thinking maybe I'm not the right personality, I'm not smart enough. And it's a cultural, you know, bullshit, that science requires a certain type of brilliant...person. So, you know, you're enough." [64:31]

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Notable Moments & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | Highlight/Quote | |---------------|-------------|---------------------| | 03:04 | Michelle's career after NASA | "Freelance astrophysicist" | | 07:02 | Consequences of NASA budget cuts | "I've seen some of our absolute best scientists...going overseas." (Thaller) | | 10:15 | U.S. science budget | “Science research in the United States is a low budget item…” (Thaller) | | 13:20 | NASA’s “visibility budget” | “Give them the visibility budget.” (Tyson) | | 19:58 | Photon as a quantum entity | “This is actually something that I wish I understood better…” (Thaller) | | 27:23 | Voting on photon identity | “I’m voting for a completely different photon here.” (Tyson) | | 29:07 | Energy and matter will dissipate | “Matter and energy are two sides of the same coin...” (Thaller) | | 41:28 | Detecting gravitational waves | "It was the equivalent of...us and the nearest star...varying by the thickness of a human hair." (Thaller) | | 53:41 | Neutron stars & extreme physics | "Neutron stars...The curvature of space and time is so extreme, you can see behind a neutron star..." (Thaller) | | 56:42 | FRB wipes away air | “We traced it back to a neutron star…about 50,000 light years away…the crust shifted by a centimeter...” (Thaller) | | 64:31 | Encouragement for children in science | “You’re already the right type of person to be a scientist…” (Thaller) |

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Style & Tone

The episode is fast-paced, humorous, and welcoming, with Neil and Chuck setting up complex science themes in accessible everyday language. Michelle blends technical expertise with candid, inspiring honesty about learning and careers, reinforcing that science is a field for the curious and persistent—“nerdy is the new cool.” The atmosphere is invigorating, hopeful, and deeply invested in science as a public good.

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For Those New to StarTalk

If you missed this episode, you missed an energizing blend of science, storytelling, and encouragement, from deep dives into the fate of the universe to heartening advice for the next generation. It’s a reminder of the wonder and seriousness of basic science—and why investing in discovery, curiosity, and people matters.

Keep Looking Up!

Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

From the world and creators of the Big Bang Theory comes a new MAX original comedy series. Stewart fails to save the universe after accidentally creating a new multiverse. Comic store owner Stuart Bloom must locate a quantum interference device to restore reality. Executive producers Chuck Lorre, Zak Penn and Bill Prady deliver the adventure of a lifetime. Check out the new Max original comedy series, streaming July 23rd exclusively on HBO Max. Subscription required.

[Chuck Nice]

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Chuck, we finally got Michelle Fowler on StarTalk. A friend, a colleague, and science educator. We love these folk. Oh, yeah, she's fun. She's got the energy that we all want and seek of someone who's enthusiastic about the moving frontier of the universe.

[Chuck Nice]

The energy of a neutron star in the compact form of an astrophysicist. Ooh. That came out of the show. I got that from the show we just did.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's the highest compliment I've ever heard anyone get. Who's an astrophysicist. Coming right up on StarTalk. Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil DeGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, got with me. Chuck.

[Chuck Nice]

Nice.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

How you doing, man?

[Chuck Nice]

What's up, Neil?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right. We're doing cosmic queries today. Yes, we are, with an old friend and colleague, Michelle Thaler. Michelle, welcome to StarTalk.

[Michelle Thaller]

It is wonderful to be here. Great. Great to be talking to you guys.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So you're not only a fellow astrophysicist, you're a fellow science communicator. And we love that species of scientists out there. You were recently of NASA Goddard Space Flight center, but the last time you weren't recently of it, you were of it. So how recently. Have you no longer been part of them?

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah, retired in October. I think it was October 2024. So.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah, yeah. So been. Been retired for a couple of years. Been doing speaking. I've been doing a lot of lecturing with Smithsonian Journeys. That's been a lot of fun. So.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I know that. Yes.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah. Just having fun being a freelance astrophysicist. There you go.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Nice. Astrophysicist at large.

[Chuck Nice]

We got a personal astrophysicist and a freelance astrophysicist.

[Michelle Thaller]

We can talk about whatever you want. I'm not working for anybody, so. Totally.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You're not working for anybody.

[Chuck Nice]

Very.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I like that. But so let me just finish up with your CV here. You were a research scientist with the Spitzer Space Telescope, one of the big. What do they call them? The grand Great observatories. Yes, great observatories. And that one was a band of the spectrum that Hubble did not cover. So that was infrared. Right, The Spitzer Telescope. Could you straighten us out here locally? We have the Goddard Institute for Space Studies, who lost their lease with Columbia as it was removed by the White House, but that has the word Goddard in it. And then we have the Goddard Space Flight center in Maryland. They're both NASA. Could you just help us distinguish the two?

[Michelle Thaller]

Well, yes, so the Goddard Institute for Space Studies has for a long, long time been the center for NASA, basically Earth science, climate science.

[Chuck Nice]

Yes.

[Michelle Thaller]

And so that was the thing. So they had a very close link to Columbia University. Columbia University leased this building to them, famously. It's the building that, if you remember Seinfeld, the sitcom, Seinfeld. It's the cafe. It's that building. Yeah, that's right. The diner's in that building.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It just has restaurant on the front.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yes, absolutely.

[Chuck Nice]

It's the greatest name for any eatery ever. It's just restaurant. Restaurant.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah. So I mean, absolute heroes of mine work there. I mean, these are the people that are doing, you know, they're in the middle of Antarctica, ground truthing measurements from satellites. They're making sure we understand what's going on with the atmosphere and the oceans and all of that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You could say it, Michelle. You could say they're doing God's work. You could say that.

[Michelle Thaller]

You're doing God's work. Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

Goddard's work.

[Michelle Thaller]

Goddard's work. Doing Goddard's work.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

God's work.

[Michelle Thaller]

Absolutely no true heroes of mine. And yeah, it's been rough. It's been a rough couple of years for them.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. In fact, at the museum, we have a few refugees that have taken pitch tent within our facility because we're just down the street a couple of miles from giss Goddard Institute for Space Studies. But they're homeless at this point. They're still all paid as scientists, but they're homeless. But it has the name Goddard in it yet. So did the Space Flight Center. So now we go to Maryland and what happens there?

[Michelle Thaller]

Well, yeah, so Maryland, right. So this is this giant base. At the Moment it's still NASA's largest base. In terms of people that go there, I think they're down a little bit. But when I was there there were about 10,000 people that worked there every day. And that's pretty incredible. I mean one statistic they had is that if Goddard were to leave NASA then Goddard would become the world's second largest space program. I mean Goddard itself is bigger than the other space programs around the world.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And so Goddard builds satellites or telescopes that get launched.

[Michelle Thaller]

Well, yeah, well so I mean the, the Hubble Space Telescope was built largely at Goddard. The observatory, part of the James Webb Space Telescope satellites, the weather satellites. I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean there's four huge science divisions. You've got Earth science, which is the biggest one, and then heliophysics study of the sun, the Space Weather Action center, you know, all the stuff the sun's throwing at us. And then you've got the planetary stuff and the astrophysics stuff. It's the world's largest science base that we know of.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, for now.

[Michelle Thaller]

Please, please keep it that way.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes, we'll get there, Chuck.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Michelle, tell me, what are the conseque of the budget cuts we've read about to NASA overall and to Goddard specifically where you once worked?

[Michelle Thaller]

It's been a couple years of. I mean I really feel for all of these people, all my former friends and so many of them have left. I mean I've seen some of our absolute best scientists and not only that, our best engineers. One of my best friends who's just an incredible kick ass systems engineer, she got scooped up by Switzerland and I mean the scientists are going overseas with NASA and Goddard in general. It's been this real seesaw. Is there going to be a huge cut, you know, or. Well then Congress kind of restores the funding. So maybe not. Oh no, no, we're going to do the huge cut. Oh well, well maybe not. So I mean it's this time of terrible uncertainty and aside from your programs being on the canceling block and losing scientists, the other big thing I've been seeing that's been Heartbreaking is, you know, the best young people, the best scientists. So NASA was required to get rid of all of their, you know, all the people that were hired in the last three years. Right. All the people that were still on probation. You know, I. This may be the person you wanted to get the leader right out of graduate school. They're gonna be the leader for the future. If they were there for less than three years, you can still legally fire them. And so those people are gone and you have a lot of the best scientists now going, well, why should I work for NASA? Why should I work for any kind of government agency? Because they can just up and cancel my job at a moment's notice.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And just to be clear, when you use the word probation, you don't mean they did something bad and they're under observation. This is just the starter period of time over which you could be removed for no cause at all just because you're not vested in the government system yet. Is that a fair way to characterize that?

[Michelle Thaller]

That's right. I mean, everybody sort of has a trial period when you're hired as a government scientist equivalent to sort of like getting tenure at a university. You're there sort of for a while where it's legally easy to say, oh, well, that wasn't the right fit, maybe you should go somewhere else. But then when they make you permanent, that's harder to do. And so, yeah, by probationary, that doesn't mean that anybody not was wrong. These are the best people in the world.

[Chuck Nice]

If you do something wrong, they put you on double secret probation.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So, Michelle, this sounds like when we. I think I might be a little older than you, but same sort of generation where we're in graduate school and we as a nation are the beneficiaries of the smartest people in other countries coming to the United States for opportunity to express their talents and their brilliance and says, bad for their home country, good for America. Right. And now I have colleagues, as do you, who are getting the phone call from Europe. We got a lab for you in Germany, we got a lab for you in Paris, and here's money and it's funded and it's stable. Come on down. And so now the world is cherry picking us.

[Chuck Nice]

They weren't sending us their best, their brightest. They weren't.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

But now we're sending our best and brightest out.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah. So, so where, where does this land, do you think? Are we going to recover from this?

[Michelle Thaller]

Well, I mean, one of the physics journals I remember had a full page ad from the country of Denmark saying, you know, come to a place where facts still matter. Right?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Damn.

[Michelle Thaller]

Oh yeah, yeah. No, I mean, other countries are on it and yeah, I mean, Europe is a beneficiary. Canada and China, I mean, I mean China as well. I have a lot of colleagues that got offered is. It's like they'll bring your whole lab over, all your graduate students. Like you said, funding, it's so unnecessary. I mean, the thing that has been so tragic about this is that science research in the United States is a low budget item. Oh my God. You know, we do not spend a lot of money on this already. I mean, the thing that I was so proud of, I mean, I worked for sort of the science part of NASA, you know, doing all the, the earth science, the Mars rovers, you know, the Webb telescope. About 110 active missions any given time. Each of those missions employs thousands of people, in some cases tens of thousands of people across the country, across the world. They do it all for under $6 billion a year.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Michelle Thaller]

I mean, I mean that's, that's a nothing burger when it comes to a budget. I mean, we get so much innovation, you know, you can demonstrate, we've had economists do studies that you get, get two, three times the economic advancement of, of money.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Just to be clear, that's the 6 billion out of the 30 billion that is NASA's annual budget. And you're referring to just the science, which is not putting people in orbit. That's not the space station, that is not launching astronauts. That is science.

[Michelle Thaller]

Putting people in orbit, of course has to be more expensive because you need to be a lot more careful when there are human lives on stake.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, they want to come back. Usually they want to come back. Rovers don't need to come back. People, you got to bring them back, you know. Yeah.

[Michelle Thaller]

What you can do for the cheap. I mean, some of the missions that blow me away, you know, I mean, basic physics. How do neutron stars work? Nicer. That's actually on the space station, but it's a small thing, just a couple hundred million dollars. I mean, these little budget items, you know, James Webb of course is a bigger one, but that was over like 20 years and employed again tens of thousands of people. You know, these are, these are tremendously great value for the money.

[Chuck Nice]

Did you say it was 30 billion? That's all we spend? 30 billion the total?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, it's around there, plus or minus for NASA in a year. So 30 billion is less than 4, 10 of 1% of your tax dollar. And I Do the experiment. You take a full dollar and just cut into it. Just a single dollar bill. Cut into it, 4, 10 of 1% of its width and it doesn't even reach the paint. The ink of the bill. Okay, you can remove that and the bill is still there. A B. What I wanted is to create a new budgeting system where agencies get the money people think they're getting. Because the visibility, the visibility of NASA is so huge compared to their actual budget. No one would guess off the top that they're getting 4/10 of 1%. They would say 5%. I've heard some people say 10%. And I say that's the budget we should give them.

[Chuck Nice]

I like that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Give them the visibility budget. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

And by the way, everybody loves NASA still. It's one of the few government agencies where people believe in the institution of the agency and they also trust it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And it's respected around the world.

[Chuck Nice]

It's respected around the world. You know that and what was formerly the nih, which is now the sad, as in just sad.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That doesn't even stand for anything. It's just sad.

[Michelle Thaller]

I mean, NIH is a whole other story. I mean honestly, that's even, that's even more worth saving than NASA. I mean, as much as I am a huge NASA and space fan, I mean, do not mess with the nih. Good Lord. I mean, we need to keep that research going. The cancer research, the Alzheimer's research, I mean again, center for Disease Control, things like that. Oh my God, do we need those? So, yeah, and remember, I mean for 30 billion you're still talking about the whole budget of NASA. And the human space program is the big chunk of that. All the earth science, all the climate science, all the weather satellites, you know, all the monitoring the sun, all the

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

exploring the universe and all the space telescopes are in the science.

[Michelle Thaller]

All the space telescopes, yeah. So, I mean, it's nothing. I mean, I don't know if this is true, but I remember one economist saying that they'd shown that the Pentagon, the military across all over the world had spent more money on air conditioning in a year than that budget.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh my God.

[Michelle Thaller]

So I'm not absolutely sure that's true. But you know, it's on that level. I mean we're not even a fighter jet, basically.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

Looks like we America has stepped in a pile of Doge crap. Yeah.

[Michelle Thaller]

Doge doo doo.

[Chuck Nice]

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[Commercial Narrator]

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[Michelle Thaller]

This is ken the nerdneck zabera from michigan, and I support startalk on patreon. This is startalk radio with neil degrasse tyson.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So let's pivot now to our questions. So, Michelle, we've solicited questions from our fan base, well, from our Patreon supporters, and they know who you are, they know your expertise, and these are targeted for you. And to the extent that we overlap in expertise, I'm happy to put in my two cents. But we're really here to see what you've got to say in response to these questions. Chuck has them all. I haven't seen any of them. And so, Chuck, what do you have for us?

[Chuck Nice]

All right, so inquiring minds want to know. This is Ross Graves who says, hello, I admire and I respect you all. Dr. Tyson, Dr. Thaler Lord. Nice. This is Ross from California. When a photon is absorbed and re. Emitted or reflected, is the journey through space time physically continuous or does that interaction create an entirely new quantum history for the outgoing light in the sense that the light experiences no time of its own? If reflected, did it hit a surface and restart its experience as a reflection? Dude, that's a matrix. Like, crap. He just came. That is an amazing question.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I love it. I love it. Did it take on a new identity as a reflected photon? That's what that comes down to. So, Michelle, what do you have to say about that?

[Michelle Thaller]

Okay, all right, all right. So I'm going to say. I'm going to start out saying this is something that is a question of mind. So, I mean, I mean, well done, because, I mean, this is actually something that I wish I understood better. I. I only recently came to a better understanding because of some great podcasts. Actually, it was a podcast, Veritasium, that Derek Muller does that finally I could understand, like, why the speed of light is different speeds. When you go through the vacuum of space, it's. It's the. The fastest anything can go. The speed of light when it passes through air or water or glass. You know, you see that classic bend, right? When you look through water, you see light like. And that's because the speed changes. And it was only his podcast that finally got me to understand, you know, light is an electromagnetic field. And when it's in the presence of other electromagnetic fields, when you're not in a vacuum, there's other atoms and molecules around the. The electromagnetic field basically becomes a combination of those two fields. And he did this great podcast about that. The question about whether a photon is reflected becomes a different photon is fascinating. So, so let's. Let's break it up. Let's go back to the beginning. I mean, this is one of the craziest. And it's true, you know, the idea that when you're traveling at the speed of light, I mean, photons obviously don't have any consciousness. They're not able to observe this. But if a photon has no idea that space and time exist when you're traveling at the speed of light, time goes to a zero. You don't experience the passage of time. And, you know, when you think about you're frozen in a moment of time, you can go any distance in the universe instantaneously to your perspective. So a photon doesn't really experience the universe as ever having expanded. You know, we're still a point, a thing, you know, almost a singularity to a photon. It does not experience space and time. What the hell does that mean? I mean. I mean, how do you wrap your head around that when I mean, the light that's, you know, bouncing off my lamp from my face right now doesn't agree with me that space and time exist. Now help me unpack this, Neil, because I don't have a great answer. I would like a better answer.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Let me restate what you said, but I don't have a deeper understanding just for having restated it. The photon has to know that the universe expands because it gets redshifted, right? So the photon you detect has a different energy than the photon that was emitted. So even though the photon does not experience space time, we measure a different photon, a different energy for that photon. Some of that energy got shared with the expansion of the universe. So that's something I can't claim to fully understand. How it exists doesn't exist in time at all. Yet it changed its wavelength before it arrived on location with you. Now, let me ask you, I didn't see that episode with Veritasium, but it was also a recent understanding of mine as well, that when photon moves through a medium, it is moving at the speed of light between atoms of the transparent medium. But it interacts with each atomic and continues forward. And that interaction creates a time delay. So the photon is never actually ever going slower than the speed of light. It just Got waylaid en route through the transparent medium. Now, is that consistent with what you got out of the Veritasium episode?

[Chuck Nice]

So, wait, wait, Neil, let me just. Because. Wow. Jesus. So

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm trying to take a cleansing breath, Chuck. Yes, Take a cleansing breath.

[Chuck Nice]

I'm trying to get this as a metaphor because that's how I see and understand things. So in the vacuum of space, that would be like taking a pool ball and shooting it straight across the table into the pocket, and it's going at that speed. But then when you put it through a medium, that would be like having the same speed, but banking it off of three banks and then going into the pocket, it. So your speed doesn't change. But the fact that you had to bank it three times is what slowed you down.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

However. However, what you're describing does happen to light, but that's when light scatters. Okay?

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, so that's different phenomenon.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It keeps in the same direction at all times.

[Chuck Nice]

I gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's the difference between a transparent medium, a translucent medium, and just something that completely scatters the light. So. So, Michelle, are we in agreement that we're talking about a new photon as it goes through a newly shaped photon after it interacted with these other fields? Is that a fair way to think

[Michelle Thaller]

of the way the podcast did it? And this was the first time I ever sort of thought, oh, okay, I get this. We were sort of talking about photons as particles here, as, like, little billiard balls and stuff. But of course, remember, famously, it's a field. They're electromagnetic waves, right? I mean, they're not just little balls. And so what the podcast did is it showed that there's electromagnetic wave, There's a photon going in, and there's other atoms around. And basically the electromagnetic wave starts those other atoms kind of vibrating along with it. But there's a delay, there's a lag to kind of get those other fields, those other electric fields, vibrating as the photon goes by. And the resulting speed is actually a combination. It's actually a way of resolving those two different vibrational modes.

[Chuck Nice]

So the photon is, like. To the other, you know, atoms. Like, bro, you're bringing me down.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah, you're slowing me down.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, bro, you're a drag on me, man. I can't. I gotta. Come on. I'm serious. Like, get off me. And then let me get the hell

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

out of this medium. Yeah. Cause once it exits the medium, it's back at the speed of light, the

[Michelle Thaller]

speed of the wave that we measure is a combination of the speed of the photon in a vacuum, but then also the speed of the very variations of basically the oscillations of everything around it. Those two combine into the measurement we see. Yeah. And so the question about. I mean, it's the same thing, Neil. Absolutely. When you talk about how a photon changes, even as it goes through a vacuum, it loses energy, it's a very similar question that if a photon is reflected, is it a different photon? I mean, it could certainly be a different energy. Right. I mean, when a photon is reflected, you usually lose some energy in the reflection. So, I mean, there's all sorts of things photons absolutely can change.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Just to be clear, Chuck, if the photon hits a surface and reflects, some of its energy is imparted as momentum to that surface. And that's why solar sails work at all.

[Chuck Nice]

Has to be.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, there's an energy change there. So I'm voting for a completely different photon here. What do you think, Michelle?

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah. Like I said, Ross Graves is a name that's familiar to me. So, yes, thank you for this fabulous question. And I have to say, I do not have an extremely clear answer. I'm not ashamed of that. This is one I've wondered myself.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so let's vote.

[Michelle Thaller]

That's right. Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm voting that the photon that came out, it's a new quantum state that is carrying the mission forward after it had its delay from the medium through which it passed or the medium off of which it reflected. Now, I'm going with that.

[Michelle Thaller]

Okay.

[Chuck Nice]

Until somebody. I'm going with. I wish I had the same properties. And there was a reflection Chuck. And real Chuck. And I could tell that all the people I owe money. You need to go talk to reflection Chuck.

[Michelle Thaller]

That's not me anymore.

[Chuck Nice]

That's not me anymore, buddy.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, that's a great question. Okay. What else do you have, Chuck?

[Chuck Nice]

All right, here we go. This is Jo Costa, and Joao Costa says, Good tidings. Dr. Tyson, Dr. Thaler Lord. Nice deep breath now, Chuck Jao Costa here. Greetings from Portugal. All right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Portugal.

[Chuck Nice]

Yes. He says, if matter isn't being created, only transformed, will there come a day when the universe runs out of matter to create new astral bodies? If so, how will we be able to notice such a situation developing? Will the creation start to become rarer, smaller, or deficient? As in less frequent, less energetic or less stable? Thank you. And please keep making our necks hurt. Oh, I like it. Look up. Make the neck hurt.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh.

[Commercial Narrator]

Oh.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No. Okay, I see what he did there. Okay.

[Chuck Nice]

You got him looking up so much you gave him a neck ache, Neil.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, you can lay down and look up and then you're just looking straight ahead.

[Michelle Thaller]

That's true.

[Chuck Nice]

The geometry are out there.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it sounds to me like somebody is just describing what's called the heat death of the universe. And the answer is yes. The answer is that the universe is slowing down in the sense that it's not so much that matter can't be destroyed. It can, it can be converted into energy. Right. Matter and energy are two sides of the same coin. That famous equation, hopefully the only, only one you ever have to deal with in life, you know, unless you want to be a scientist, is E, energy equals mass times the speed of light squared. Good old Albert Einstein equals MC squared.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's most people's first equation. They learn in elementary school, even before, you know.

[Michelle Thaller]

Elementary school equation. Yeah. So I mean, I mean, so you can destroy matter, you can make it into energy, and you can make energy into matter. That, that's what we do in particle accelerators. We get things going with such high energy. When things collide, there's so much energy around, it actually creates new matter. That's how you find new types of particles. New particles, yeah. So energy and matter are equivalent. And so there is, there's. But absolutely what's happening is that in the early universe there were things that were much higher temperature, much higher energy. Stars, for example, are an example of something that's a very low entropy. Stars create very high energy radiation. And you know, over time. Yes. I mean, every time you basically generate heat, I mean, sunlight comes down, it's a high energy photon hits the earth, warms things up. What's released the heat is a lower energy type of light. You've lost energy, you've made from a high energy particle of light. Now it's a lower energy type of light. And so eventually the universe, all of the photons that were high energy are going to hit things, get absorbed by things, make things warm, get re emitted, and they're going to lose energy over time. And so yes, the universe is running down and eventually we're going to get to a point where there's nothing left but very low energy photons. You know, photons that are so low energy, they're probably not even detectable. And then it's sort of anybody's guess as to, you know, does time and space exist anymore when there's really everything is just the same temperature, A very, very low temperature is the only thing that the universe has.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So it's a misnomer to call it a heat death if it's actually a cold death.

[Michelle Thaller]

It gets cooler and cooler. Yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

I mean, it's the heat that's dying.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

It's the heat that's just like,

[Michelle Thaller]

go on without me.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, just go on without me.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Plus, the expanding universe also drops. Is dropping the temperature with it, Right? Absolutely.

[Michelle Thaller]

You got a photon going through expanding space and think about, you know, draw a squiggly line on a piece of elastic and pull the elastic, and then that wavelength drops down, you lose energy. You know, I mean, it's really kind of as simple as that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Wait, just to be precise, the wavelength gets longer.

[Michelle Thaller]

The wavelength gets longer. That's right. Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And that's a lower energy wavelength. Lower energy wavelength. It drops down.

[Michelle Thaller]

The wavelength gets longer as it drops.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Commercial Narrator]

Right.

[Chuck Nice]

And if I may, what Michelle just described is exactly how the warming of the planet happens. High energy comes in, pierces our atmosphere. Atmosphere becomes lower energy and a longer wavelength, which is trapped by greenhouse gases. And that's how we heat up. Because, as everybody has learned from Neil, the atmosphere isn't hot. The ground gets hot and radiates heat back into the atmosphere. And that is the cycle that creates a warming of the planet. Just so that you guys know that it's real. Okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's real. Send $5. Send $5 to Senate Campaign. By the way, just. Just to be precise, there is a layer of the atmosphere that does absorb light directly from the sun, and that's the thermosphere where the ultraviolet gets absorbed and by the ozone. And so there is a layer that is hotter, but we're not experiencing that down here. Right?

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, yeah, that's cool. Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The hottest part of the troposphere is right above Earth's surface. Right above.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay, nice.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

Wait, and what's the part. See, now, this is where the explainers are all swirling in my head. What is the part where the excitation of the molecules is such that we say it's cold, but it's actually hotter?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Chuck, could it be that there's a layer, upper layers of the atmosphere, where the particles themselves are high energy, but there isn't many of them? Right. So that you don't feel that temperature that you otherwise would.

[Chuck Nice]

That's what I'm saying.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The concept of temperature kind of loses practical meaning there. Right.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay. I said it like a.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What you're thinking about.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking about. But I said it like a dumb 2 year old.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, no, Michelle, if I flew you through the sun's Corona, which is 5 million degrees, would you feel that given how low density the particles are that have such high temperature, we are really, really lucky?

[Michelle Thaller]

The answer is no. Because I mean, the corona is one thing, but also, let's remember, I mean, we actually, our whole solar system is in this hot bubble of gas in the Milky Way galaxy that maybe there was a star that exploded here billions of years ago, but the temperature of the gas we're going through is in the millions of degrees in our galaxy. The thing is, the gas between the stars is so thin, it's like, okay, there goes, there goes a proton, zip, you know, there goes an electron, zoop. You know, I mean, there's so few particles that it doesn't really impart any heat to you. I mean, yes, the average speed of these high energy particles is equivalent to being millions of degree gas. And just like Neil said, so the sun's corona is this extended atmosphere of very hot gas. We have a spacecraft, NASA has a spacecraft called the Parker Solar Panel probe that is orbiting well within the solar corona right now. You better believe it would not be alive. Returning data if it really felt like 5 million degrees. Yeah, so the analogy we used to use is when you think about, you know, everybody who's like done some baking, you get your oven up to 500 degrees.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's some serious baking. If you're baking at 500 degrees.

[Michelle Thaller]

Pizza. We're going for pizza ovens here. Yeah, yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You're a pizza chef on the corner of Lenox Avenue, 125th Street. If you have a 500 degree oven,

[Michelle Thaller]

okay, if you open the oven and you just stick your hand in, your hand is not actually feeling like it's 500 degrees all of a sudden. If you were to touch like a metal part of the oven, if you were to touch the rack, then you'd burn your hand because I mean, all of a sudden now you have a denser object, you've got the metal.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Michelle Thaller]

A little bit of a thing about the Parker Solar probe, it's another, another incredible person, Eugene Parker. And he was the person that discovered this wind of PI energy park particles from the sun. The solar wind. The solar wind, yeah. A fabulous launch. I'm glad somebody told me that a Delta Heavy looks like it explodes on the pad before the rocket comes up. I was at that launch. It was amazing. The whole idea, the surface of the sun is only about, you know, say roughly like 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit. But as soon as you get off the surface, the gas becomes millions of degrees hot. I mean, this was a big mystery. And how does the sun do that? I mean, normally, if you've got a hot campfire, the farther away you walk, the cooler, cooler it seems. Why does the temperature go up? And the parker solar probe has really helped answer that. There's all of these complicated accelerations Due to magnetic fields around the sun. The particles pick up speed. There are shocks in there. So, I mean, we're figuring out how the sun works. It's not something we know until we go there near the sun, Fly around in this corona and see what's going on.

[Chuck Nice]

And look at that. You're getting all of that for a lousy $6 billion. What the hell is wrong with you people?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, Chuck, that's his daily. I gotta blow a gasket once a day reaction.

[Michelle Thaller]

It's worth it. It's worth blowing a gasket over.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

If memory serves, the Parker solar probe set a speed record.

[Michelle Thaller]

Oh, yeah. It goes over 400,000 miles an hour.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah, I keep having to look that up because I don't believe it. And then I look it up again. You don't believe it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Cause it gets pulled in by the sun's gravity, and There it is. 400,000 miles an hour.

[Chuck Nice]

Hour. Wow. Amazing. All right, well, let's move on for

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

a few more questions. Let's try to fit in a bunch more. So let's tighten up the answers and

[Chuck Nice]

see how many we can fit. Let's just do the questions, and then we just have to have Michelle back to ask more. That's all.

[Michelle Thaller]

You know, I'm always here. That's right. Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

We're not going anywhere. I mean, you know, why these people, they're just like. You didn't get to my question. What, what you think you got? You got information? We.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We don't.

[Chuck Nice]

We getting canceled.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What do you know?

[Chuck Nice]

What do you know that we don't know?

[Michelle Thaller]

You know, we could do this again for questions. Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

All right, here we go. This is Christian breaker, who says, good evening, Dr. Tyson, Dr. Thaler. Lord. Nice. Tristan here from Utah. Considering gravity is caused by the curvature of space time, Hypothetically, could gravitational waves from two separate sources intersect, forming a constructive interference pattern combining their. Their amplitudes? If so, could this create regions in space where the curvature of space time is great enough to produce a gravitational field as though a celestial body were present, Even though nothing is there? Additionally, wouldn't the crest of the waves create an inverse gravitational field? Could space time curve in the opposite direction, imagining the common fabric of gravity? Demonstration, for instance, producing a repulsive field rather than an attractive one. My heartfelt thanks to you for bringing awareness to the wonders of the universe. Well, Tristan, all I could say is, first of all, I need some of that weed you smoking, man. That is some serious stuff.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Maybe check with our producers. Maybe for questions like that we should create a little certificate that we send back out to them them for questions that are above and beyond the call of duty.

[Chuck Nice]

We've had two so far in this show.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's a deep thought question, right?

[Chuck Nice]

That's a deep thought question.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Michelle, are you up on gravitational waves? What's the latest there?

[Michelle Thaller]

Oh, I love gravitational waves. Are you kidding? I was a postdoc at Caltech. I better love gravitational waves. So. Oh my God. Let me just say how impressed I am with gravitational wave detection because this is something. When I was a postdoc at Caltech, it was a big deal. The LIGO project, the Laser Interferometric Gravitational Wave Observatory was something that Caltech was involved in. And I honestly, I talk about my skeptical nature. I was like, they're never going to detect these bastards. I mean, I mean, this is really so you can. So ligo, at the time there were. There are two facilities, there are now more. You've got a, you've got a laser that's about two miles long and another one going out in a 90 degree angle. There we go in a corner. So two miles each direction. And those lasers are supposed to be exactly the same length. Imagine trying to calibrate that. And so the lasers are going back and forth, bouncing around. And then if a gravitational wave comes by. A gravitational wave is literally a wave in space and time. And so space contracts in one direction and all of a sudden the two lasers are no longer the same length strength. They're different because space contracted. And so the person with the question is absolutely right. That's what gravitational waves do. The thing that makes it mind blowing that we detected these things is they're tiny. Luckily for us, they're a thousand times smaller than a proton. And to give you a sense of that, I mean, not that the human brain can even get that. And the human brain's not going to get the next one either. But it's the equivalent of measuring from us to the nearest star, Alpha Centauri, about four light years. A light year is about 6 trillion miles. Damn, you're going on 24 trillion miles. That would be the equivalent of the distance between us and the nearest star varying by the thickness of a human hair.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Michelle Thaller]

They're trying to measure that. Holy. Are you allowed to swear on this?

[Chuck Nice]

Bud, I'll do it for you. Holy shit.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, thank you.

[Michelle Thaller]

I could go more than that, probably. I could swear all day. You know, I did not think they'd be able to do this.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And in fact, Michelle, I would. You know, the Nobel Prize, which was ultimately given to the project, for me, I view that as not only a prize for the scientific result, but for the engineering that enabled it. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

With that measurement being so infinitesimally small, how do they know that somebody didn't just bump the table?

[Michelle Thaller]

Absolutely. So, I mean. So this is the thing, right?

[Chuck Nice]

I mean, breeze on the table, right? Exactly.

[Michelle Thaller]

Bumped on table in the next state. Right.

[Chuck Nice]

Sneezed in Australia.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah. So there's. I mean, there's all of these. There's all this noise in the detector. Right. The detector, like you said, there's all kinds of noise going on in the detector. And then. And then this. I was. I was just making sure I had my. My dates and everything. So this would have been in September of 2015.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And just to clarify, when a scientist uses the word noise, they're not necessarily, and almost hardly ever are talking about sound.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah. They're not in the lab going, shut your ass up.

[Michelle Thaller]

Who knows? Maybe that's what the detector was saying.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Shut down the noise. No, we're talking about sources of interference to the signal you're trying to measure, no matter what those sources are. Right. So go on, Michelle.

[Michelle Thaller]

There's all kinds of little variations. I mean, the lasers are under vacuum, but, I mean, there's all kinds of things happening. So In September of 2015, there's all kinds of noise, there's all kinds of variation, but then all of a sudden, one of the detectors goes just like that. And then at the speed of light, between one detector, which was in Louisiana, and the other one was in Oregon, the same pattern. Boom goes off. And it was absolutely unquestionable. It was the same pattern, the same frequency at the speed of light. Gravitational waves travel at the speed of light from one detector, and people were like, nobel Prize?

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah. That's fantastic.

[Michelle Thaller]

Oh, my God. But I mean, let me just say, because I want to say what that event was. There were two black holes 1.4 billion light years away, that this event happened 1.4 billion years ago. The black holes were both on.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

In another galaxy. In another galaxy?

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah. I was way out of our galaxy.

[Chuck Nice]

Far, far away by the Way.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

Far, far away.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yes, thank you. Those two black.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's far, far away.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah, yeah. 1.4 billion light years. Don't need to worry about it. Yeah, yeah, that's right. You know, there were two black holes that were roughly 30 times the mass of the sun. A piece of. We caught them in only the last two seconds. Point two. Sorry, point two, two. 10 of a second of them spiraling together and merging into a bigger black hole. And in that 0.2 seconds, they accelerated from 30% the speed of light to 60% the speed of light. Black holes 30 times the mass of the sun and. And about two times the mass of the sun was converted into pure energy. This is an unbelievable thing. It's real. That is a monster proportions that the human brain can't go any. I have no idea what that is. And it happened and we measured it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Michelle, wasn't that the most energetic event in the universe in that moment? I think it had to be.

[Michelle Thaller]

It was more energy than every star in every galaxy in the observable universe.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

In that 0.2 seconds. Right, right.

[Michelle Thaller]

0.2 seconds. Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

Geez Louise.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so tell us about. So if this happens with some frequency, no pun intended, there then two waves that do intersect, what can we say about them? Do they magnify any kind of gravitational disturbance in the space time? What can we say about what is happening? Because when you drop two pebbles in a pond, you see interference patterns with the peak gets higher and the valleys get lower. So it exaggerates what's there. Presumably we can expect just that same thing, can't we?

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah, I think the answer is yes, but it's at a tiny, tiny, tiny scale. And also, I mean, so, I mean, this was a fantastic energetic event that the gravitational wave detector was able to detect this event. But there's also a background of gravitational waves, binary stars going around each other, all kinds of things. I'm actually making tiny little gravitational waves right now. So, you know, the. It's, it's again we come to this idea of noise.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What you were making gravitational waves because you were lifting your hands up and down.

[Michelle Thaller]

Mass is moving. There's something moving. There's mass moving around. That's right. Really, really small.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's not that you have special powers. You're just moving your body, just to be clear.

[Michelle Thaller]

Okay, yeah, that'd be a great superpower, you know, making gravitational waves. But anyway. Yeah, so the answer I think is yes, but I don't think they're going to. I don't Think there's going to be any organized effectiveness that. Because there's just. I mean, I mean, think about, you know, waves on a giant lake, a giant ocean. There's, there's ripples going every which way. And yes, they are interfering. They, when they, when they add together or, you know, they can, they can. You know, I think all that's happening, but, but I don't think that has any measurable effect on what's going on in the universe. It's tiny.

[Chuck Nice]

So in Tristan's question, it was, would it be able to perhaps give the appearance of a celestial body being there when none is there because of the curvature of space time itself? And you're saying that, that. That's not gonna happen. Okay, cool.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The energetics are too small. So just to be clear, it gave off more energy than all stars combined in the universe over those 0.2 seconds. But then that energy in the form of gravitational waves moved how many billions of miles to reach us?

[Michelle Thaller]

1.4 billion light years.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

1.4 billion light. So it's been diluted over that distance to the low energies that were ultimately detected in ligo. Right. I mean, just think of the volume. Because anybody at this distance in any direction from those colliding black holes could make this measurement.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So that energy is expanding through the entire universe and we're just catching our one little piece of it.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Michelle Thaller]

What was that event like? I mean, I mean, because if you're close to that event, I mean, that must have ripped apart any matter, you know, within quite a. Quite a large distance. I mean, I'm sure we could, you know, have somebody do the math on that. So, I mean, it's, it's. So, no, I don't think that there would be. It can't make it seem like there's a star there. This is not a solution for dark matter. Sorry.

[Chuck Nice]

It's not all right.

[Commercial Narrator]

Our listeners love puzzles, paradoxes and hidden patterns almost as much as we do. On TikTok, those fascinations come to life. People are breaking down physics, exploring geology and explaining why the world works the way it does. You'll see impressive experiments, explanations that finally make sense, and connections you didn't expect. It's like having a loud lab, a lecture hall and science museum in your pocket. Tick tock is where wonder is shared, where curiosity turns into discovery, and where millions learn something new every day.

[Chuck Nice]

Streaming on July 23rd. Star Trek Strange New Worlds returns with a brand new season, exclusively on Paramount. Plus, get ready to boldly go one step closer to where it all began as Captain Christopher pike and and the crew of the USS Enterprise embark on thrilling new adventures across the galaxy. As they journey to strange new worlds. They battle inner demons and external threats, encounter colorful new characters and reunite with familiar faces. Don't miss the brand new season of Star Trek, Strange New Worlds, streaming on July 23rd exclusively on Paramount Plus.

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Chuck Nice]

This is Rachel Ambrose who says Rachel here from Texas. I loved Michelle's Big Think interview. It was the first time I heard someone articulate the profound weirdness of reality in a way that completely resonated with low of with how I have always felt but could never adequately explain explain. And I just appreciated that so much. Thank you Michelle. My question is about neutron stars. I am confused why the high energy fast radio bursts, the FRBs come to us in the form of low energy radio frequencies rather than X rays or gamma rays. What mechanism causes such a high energy event to manifest as radio light?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So this has built in the knowledge that radio waves are lower energy light energy than X rays or gamma rays. And if it's a high energy phenomenon and why is it wasting itself with radio waves? Answer that one, Michelle.

[Michelle Thaller]

Right, okay. So yeah, I at least know a little bit about that. I mean, as I said, I mean one of the missions I absolutely adore is called Nicer, the Neutron Star Interior Composition Explorer. It's on the space station. It's a Goddard run mission. Fantastic. It's about the size of a washing machine. Again, not an expensive mission. And it's able to actually get X rays in this case X rays from neutron stars. And at times, the arrival of the X rays so precisely we can make a map of what the surface of a neutron star is like. They're tiny. Neutron stars are only about 20 miles across. They, they usually have about twice the mass of the sun packed into 20 miles. These are extreme things, and they're real. I mean, we study many of these and they're, they're so incredible. When you do a map of these, and they often are rotating very fast, you actually get this strange effect on the, on the side of the map because light is bending around, there's so much mass. The curvature of space and time is so extreme, two solar masses packed into 20 miles that you actually can see behind a neutron star as well as in front, the light curves around it. And so, I mean, what an incredible real monster.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What you're saying is it has many properties that we would find with black holes in its distortion of the fabric of space and time in the.

[Michelle Thaller]

In fact, the neutron star group at Goddard said that neutron stars are far more interesting than black holes because with black holes, you have this dark event horizon that nothing ever comes out of. You don't know what's going on in there. With neutron stars, you got the freaking thing right in front of you. It's very bright still here with us. And you can study something that has such extreme conditions that there's no laboratory on Earth. We can even study what matter is like under these conditions. Conditions. It's amazing.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Michelle Thaller]

But, yeah, okay, so going back to why it's radio waves, neutron stars definitely do admit high energy radiation. They're actually the source of what we think are gamma ray bursts, dangerous blasts of high energy radiation. We're using an X ray telescope to observe these things. The surface of a neutron star is very hot. It definitely does generate these high energy things. The way you get radio waves is something. Neil, I'm sure it's a favorite of yours too. It's a lovely thing called synchrotron radio radiation. And would you like to go ahead and talk about synchrotron radiation?

[Chuck Nice]

How could you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

As I understood it. No. As I understand it, the neutron store has to be magnetic, has to have a magnetic field.

[Michelle Thaller]

That's right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And as it rotates, it can accelerate electrons that are ambient in the environment. And you can accelerate electrons off of magnetic field that will radiate radio waves. And we call it synchrotron radiation. I think I accounted for that correctly. Is that correct?

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah. I mean, the one thing that's perhaps something to mention about synchrotron radiation. I mean, so you've got a couple things going on. I mean, you also have electrons are charged particles. They respond to a magnetic field. They can actually be accelerated. Neutron stars have jets. We see those as well. Also, when you get synchrotron radiation happens largely when electron spirals around a magnet magnetic field that just by the act of spinning around, that's a form of expansion.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's what it was. That's what it was. It creates its own frequency spiral frequency, that is the radio wave. So what's fun about the neutron star, Just to summarize, that is different processes within the environment of a neutron star give you different bands of light that our different telescopes can participate in, which is kind of fun. And then you can compare notes across different.

[Michelle Thaller]

This is why astronomers just aren't greedy. It's like, oh, we need a radio telescope and an infrared telescope and an x ray telescope and a visible light telescope. But you're absolutely true. You see totally different things in these different wavelengths of light. And so as high energy and dramatic objects neutron stars are, you better believe they are. There was one in God. Was it 2007? There was an event that actually blew off a measurable amount of our atmosphere. And, and the whole magnetic field of the earth was ringing like a bell for a while.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Now you're telling us this, wow, look this up.

[Michelle Thaller]

This is all real. And we traced it back to a neutron star that we think is about 50,000 light years away. The neutron star had a little bit of a bad day. The crust, we think, shifted by about a centimeter. And that gave off so much energy that 50,000 light years away, it blew off a bunch of our atmosphere.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, God.

[Michelle Thaller]

My, my, these are intense things, Michelle.

[Chuck Nice]

I'm going be honest. I could have lived without that information.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah, I know. It keeps you up at night, doesn't it? I mean, who cares about asteroids, right? I mean, killer asteroids. No, I mean, I mean these, these, these blasts of high energy radiation from neutron stars, some people think that may limit the age of civilizations in the galaxy. Eventually we all get hit by one.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow. Another great question. Thank you, Rachel. All right. Hey, this is Brett and Brett says hi. Dr. Tyson, Dr. Thaler Lord, nice tuning in from Dublin, Ireland. My question is, what unlikely possibility or possibilities do you hope are true? Oh, that's father for good thought. But it is an unlike possibility that you're like, oh, man, that'd be so great if that were true. Yeah.

[Michelle Thaller]

So, boy, that could go in so many different directions because, I mean, I've got.

[Chuck Nice]

I mean, what a great question, Brett. Look at you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I can lead off. I got one for you, Michelle.

[Michelle Thaller]

Okay, I got one, too. You go ahead. I think I got it. Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I think it's unlikely that we'll find anything other than microbial life on Mars, if we find life at all. But we would be really cool if we found sort of macroscopic crawly things living in the subsurface of Mars. I think that's unlikely, but that would be really cool if creatures crawled out from holes.

[Chuck Nice]

Would you still be satisfied if those macroscopic crawly things were fossilized in some way, but they're no longer there?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, no. We're talking about unlikely things that we want to happen. Let the thing crawl out and ride one of the rovers. Like a, Like a, Like a, you know.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You know, like, like, what do you call those horses? Those riders in the bar. Yeah, bucking bronco. I want to come out and ride one of our. Ride one of our rovers. Rovers. So that'd be unlikely, but it'd be really cool if it was. So now your turn, Michelle.

[Michelle Thaller]

Well, I mean, just riffing on that. I mean, do you think it might be more likely to find macroscopic life on the moons of Jupiter and Saturn in the oceans, you know, Europa, Enceladus?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We're talking about unlikely things that we want to happen.

[Michelle Thaller]

Oh, you think that's a likely thing? Okay. All right. Got it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Unlikely things.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah. There could be, like, little brine shrimp and stuff.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Thaller]

One of my big excitements right now with the Webb telescope is it's looking. It's looking so far away that we're looking back to a time roughly like, let's say, about 300 million years after the Big Bang. And we're actually seeing the very first stars form, and they're absolutely different. I mean, we haven't actually found one of these first stars yet. I really want to find a first generation star. We're going to be looking back to a time just like I said, a couple hundred million years after the Big Bang when stars started to form. Webb can now see that far back. We have that power. And we're starting to see these. These pseudo stars that are formed around black holes. They're about a million times the mass of the sun, relatively small. You know, I mean, they're. These things may become the seeds of the big black holes that are in the centers of all galaxies. We're starting to see that forming now. And my question, I mean, I was a stellar astrophysicist I was a stellar astrophysicist. I studied stars. That was my thing.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Outstanding in your field.

[Michelle Thaller]

I was not outstanding, but that's why I studied. And I would love to see what one of the first generation stars looks like because my guess is it's going to look totally different. That the universe was more dense back then. There was more dark matter prevalent. Dark matter has gravity that's going to get sucked into the formation of a star. Just gravity, too. What was that first generation of stars like? My guess is they're going to be huge. Many, many times the mass of the sun. Many, many times bigger than the most massive stars we have today. And I'm wondering if they're going to work really differently because there's more dark matter in them.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay, interesting.

[Michelle Thaller]

I want to see that first generation of stars.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And just to be clear, James Webb was specifically designed and tuned for that exercise to see the beginnings of the formation of matter in the early universe. So you're betting on the right horse there, I think.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah, we're doing it. I mean, these. These things. I mean, never let astronomers name anything. These things are called little red dots. Ha ha. Yeah. Well, I mean, they're massive pseudostars around a giant black hole at the beginning of the universe where they're calling little

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

red dots because they look like little

[Michelle Thaller]

red dots, but they're so far away, you know? Yeah, it's one of my favorites.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Chuck, time for, like, two more questions.

[Chuck Nice]

All right, here we go.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But only if Michelle is. If only if Michelle is efficient in her answers.

[Michelle Thaller]

I promise to be efficient.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You're unnoticed. Okay, go.

[Chuck Nice]

You don't have to promise anything, Michelle. It's going to do what you want. This is Alyssa Feldhouse who says, hello, Thaler the Great. This is Alyssa Feldhouse tuning in from Hendersonville, Tennessee. As such a prominent female figure in the science world, what message can you give all the little girls out there that will one day stand on our shoulders? Me and my girls love how the universe works. And thank you for keeping science cool.

[Michelle Thaller]

Oh, I always think myself is so nerdy. I never. I never think about cool. Okay, so a message I always have.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Nerdy is the new cool. Nerdy is the new cool.

[Michelle Thaller]

Nerdy the new goal. Absolutely. Yeah. I guess a message I already have is you're already the right type of person to be a scientist. Math and physics did not come quickly to me. I didn't get particularly good grades in school in math and physics. It took me some time. I just loved it so much, you know, paying attention to your own curiosity and not being discouraged when maybe you don't get something very, very quickly. You're already enough. You're already there for so long. I wondered, do I have what it takes to be an astrophysicist? I love this, but maybe I just don't have the magic thing right stuff. And, and, and science doesn't work that way. If you want to study it, you can study it. It's like learning a language. You know, it, it, it takes a while to become fluent in a different language. You don't really go up to a young person and say you could never learn Spanish, you know, even if you tried, you know. No, no, I, I mean, I mean, science is a beautiful thing to study. It takes time and, and, and anyone can learn it if they're interested in it and have, and have that, you know, that, that, that passion more than any innate ability and talent to get all of this very quickly. So, you know, I spent way too much time thinking maybe I'm not the right personality, I'm not smart enough. And it's a cultural, you know, bullshit that science requires a certain type of brilliant, different person. So, you know, you're, you're enough. And you know you're going to be the best scientist. And from your perspective, right? I mean, we're all. People have different science talents. Some people are better at the math. Some people see the larger concepts. Some people are really good at communicating it. These are all really important steps. And you can find that part that you fit into so you don't have to be anything other than just the way you are.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I love it.

[Chuck Nice]

Look at that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And if I can add, not having ever been female, but being a black man in the world, there resonates challenges that we face entering a world that role models are not there. So I would just add that there are always people who will learn something faster than you will. And the school system tends to reward that and call those people smart and they might get a higher grade, but in the end, that's not what matters. What matters is your motivation to ultimately learn what you need to learn. If it takes you longer to learn it and longer than the time before you're tested on it takes you a little longer. So what took you a little longer? If you get there and your ambition takes you and your interest, then ultimately that's what will dominate who and what you are as a participant on the research frontier, not how quickly you learn a problem set on an exam in high school or in college. So ambition is something that Tasks, tests, hardly ever test for. And that's what you need. And that's what you need confidence in.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yeah. And. And just being able to stick to something.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Thaller]

Just having. Having the grit. I mean, when I got to college, I got placed in remedial math. I mean, I came from a public school system that didn't have a whole lot of math. And, you know, I. I just. I just. I knew I could not get space out of my head. I was so fascinated by it, and I am so glad I stuck in when I was thinking, geez, I just don't have the talent for this.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And that became the driver, your source of energy to pursue passion. And I like your language analogy, because no one will ever say, oh, you're not smart enough to learn Spanish. No one will ever say that. They just say, are you committed enough to learn Spanish? And you learn a little bit today and a little bit next week and next month, and eventually you wake up and you're just talking fluent Spanish, you know, and everyone can learn it. And I think that's also true with math as a language of the universe.

[Michelle Thaller]

Yes.

[Chuck Nice]

Well, let me add, Alyssa, that as a product of Philadelphia public schools, there's always comedy. All right,

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

so, Chuck, we only actually had time for that one last question, but that was a really good one to end this episode on. So, Michelle, thank you for being a guest on StarTalk.

[Michelle Thaller]

Hey, I'm always here.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Where are you based right now?

[Michelle Thaller]

Right now? I'm in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Whoa. Is that where you're based?

[Michelle Thaller]

Yes. Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Cool. Cool. Okay, well, we will make sure to find you again. Again. Because you're a delight to share in our answers here and to get your perspectives on the state of science in America and in the universe. All right, Chuck, always good to have you, man.

[Chuck Nice]

Always a pleasure.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

These are fan favorites, these cosmic queries. And we delight in the questions that we receive and keep them coming. But you have to be a member of the Patreon community first.

[Chuck Nice]

Yes, but it's only $5. That's it. $5 a month. And I gotta tell you, that's less than what the budget of NASA is. All right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I am Neil Degrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. As always, I bid you to keep looking up.

[Chuck Nice]

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world and creators of the Big Bang Theory comes a new Max Original comedy series. Stewart fails to save the universe after accidentally creating a new multiverse. Comic store owner Stuart Bloom must locate a quantum interference device to restore reality. Executive producers Chuck Lorre, Zach Penn and Bill Prady deliver the adventure of a lifetime. Check out the new Max original comedy series, streaming July 23rd exclusively on HBO Max. Subscription required.