Cosmic Queries – Dimensional Leaking

Summary

StarTalk Radio: Cosmic Queries – Dimensional Leaking
Host: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Release Date: June 13, 2025

---

Introduction to Cosmic Queries
Duration: 02:02 – 03:44

Neil deGrasse Tyson welcomes listeners to a special edition of StarTalk Radio titled "Cosmic Queries," featuring his co-host Gary and special guest Charles Liu from the Hayden Planetarium. This edition celebrates the 25th anniversary of the Rose Center’s opening and delves into intriguing astrophysical questions submitted by listeners.

---

1. Gravity: Force vs. Curvature of Spacetime
Duration: 05:13 – 12:24

Listener Question by Tom Stergill (@05:13):
"General relativity tells us that gravity is not a force but a reaction of spacetime to mass. Quantum theory suggests there may be parallel universes influencing our spacetime. Could this affect our understanding of dark energy?"

Discussion Highlights:

• Charles Liu (@06:05):
  "The general theory of relativity supersedes Newton's universal theory of gravity. On small scales like Earth or our solar system, you can't distinguish between acceleration and the curvature of spacetime caused by gravity."

• Graviton Theory:
  Charles explains the search for the graviton, the hypothetical particle that would mediate gravity, paralleling how photons, gluons, and W/Z bosons mediate other fundamental forces.

• Gary's Insight (@08:04):
  "Gravity's unique position in the standard model poses challenges. Unlike other forces, gravity doesn't have an associated particle within the current model, making the detection of gravitons difficult."

• Quantum Mechanics vs. General Relativity:
  The conversation delves into the incompatibility between quantum mechanics and general relativity, highlighting ongoing research to bridge the two theories.

• Charles Liu (@12:24):
  "Gravitational wave detectors provide indirect evidence for gravitons, but detecting them directly remains a significant challenge due to their low energy and high abundance."

Notable Quote:

Charles Liu (@09:15): "All other forces have mediating particles. So gravity should have the graviton, and its detection is crucial for the standard model."

---

2. Colliding Black Holes and Dimensional Gravity Leaking
Duration: 16:02 – 24:14

Listener Question by Parker Mann (@14:54):
"What happens just prior to the merger of two black holes' event horizons? Could the stress on spacetime increase Hawking radiation or trigger vacuum decay in massive black holes?"

Discussion Highlights:

• Charles Liu (@17:09):
  "As black holes spiral closer, gravitational waves are emitted. The exact interactions and energy releases depend on the geometry and dynamics of the merger."

• Dimensional Leakage Theory:
  Gary introduces the concept that dark matter might be ordinary matter from another universe, with gravity spilling into ours through higher-dimensional spaces, referencing Lisa Randall's "Warped Passages."

• Gary's Explanation (@20:01):
  "In higher dimensions, gravity's strength diminishes faster with distance, potentially explaining dark matter's gravitational effects without invoking new particles."

• Charles Liu (@23:35):
  "Randomld Sundrum's theory suggests that gravity could leak into extra dimensions, offering a possible explanation for dark matter and other cosmic phenomena."

Notable Quote:

Gary (@21:23): "Dark matter in our universe is 5/6 of the source of all gravity expressed here, but it drops off by the third power of distance in a fourth dimension."

---

3. Supernova Data and Cosmic Time Flow Variations
Duration: 24:15 – 34:25

Listener Question by Matt Koda (@24:15):
"Recent supernova data suggests time flows at different rates throughout space—faster in voids and slower where matter clumps. Could this signal a paradigm shift in our understanding of the cosmos?"

Discussion Highlights:

• Charles Liu (@25:27):
  "While it's tempting to consider this a Copernican revolution, simpler explanations like gravitational lensing might account for the observations without overhauling established theories."

• Gary's Perspective (@27:50):
  "Similar to how Kepler refined Copernicus's model with elliptical orbits, we might need to adjust our cosmological models without discarding foundational principles."

• Charles Liu (@26:25):
  "Einstein knew his theory wasn't complete. If observations require a time-dependent cosmological constant, it suggests areas where our understanding of physics can evolve."

Notable Quote:

Charles Liu (@28:27): "Science is a process of learning what's right and wrong, allowing us to build a more complex and accurate understanding together."

---

4. Life on Europa and Preventing Cross-Contamination
Duration: 29:00 – 34:25

Listener Question by Trisha Lynch (@29:36):
"If there is life beneath Europa’s ice, how can we observe it without risking cross-contamination?"

Discussion Highlights:

• Charles Liu (@30:03):
  "NASA's Office of Planetary Protection ensures that missions to celestial bodies like Europa avoid contaminating potential ecosystems. This involves secure spacecraft design and disposal strategies."

• Remote Sensing Techniques:
  The panel discusses using ice-penetrating radar and other remote sensing technologies to study subsurface oceans without physical contact, minimizing contamination risks.

• Future Exploration:
  Considerations for how to study potential life forms on Europa responsibly, including the challenges of deploying subsurface probes or submersibles.

Notable Quote:

Charles Liu (@31:15): "Instead of landing and risking contamination, we crash probes into planets like Jupiter and Saturn to ensure they burn up safely in the atmosphere."

---

5. The Universe in a Time Loop: Isaac Asimov's "The Last Question"
Duration: 43:47 – 47:54

Listener Question by Oleksandr Samulenko (@43:47):
"Could our universe exist in its own time loop, igniting a new universe as the current one dissipates?"

Discussion Highlights:

• Charles Liu (@44:44):
  "Isaac Asimov's short story 'The Last Question' explores this exact concept, pondering whether the universe can reboot itself after reaching a state of entropy."

• Cyclical Universe Theory:
  The panel discusses theoretical physics ideas about the universe cycling through phases of expansion and contraction, potentially leading to successive Big Bangs.

• Vacuum Decay and False Vacua:
  Exploration of the possibility that our universe sits in a false vacuum state, which could eventually tunnel into a true vacuum, triggering a new Big Bang.

• Mathematical Speculations:
  While these ideas are rooted in mathematical theories, they currently lack experimental verification and remain speculative within cosmology.

Notable Quote:

Charles Liu (@47:04): "The idea that our universe could tunnel into a more stable state, igniting a new Big Bang, is a fascinating speculation, but we lack the evidence to confirm it."

---

6. Parker Solar Probe and the Mystery of the Solar Corona
Duration: 38:00 – 43:38

Listener Question by Lily Rose (@38:00):
"What data can the Parker Solar Probe provide about the sun, and how might it help us understand the corona's inexplicably high temperatures?"

Discussion Highlights:

• Charles Liu (@38:58):
  "One major question is why the sun's corona is millions of degrees hot, much hotter than its surface. The Parker Solar Probe aims to identify the mechanisms transferring energy from the photosphere to the corona."

• Energy Transfer Mechanisms:
  The panel examines theories such as magnetic reconnection and wave heating that could explain the corona's temperature anomalies.

• Practical Implications (@42:40):
  Understanding solar dynamics helps predict space weather, which affects satellite operations and communications on Earth.

• Technical Aspects of the Probe:
  Discussion on how the Parker Solar Probe withstands extreme heat and gathers data through advanced shielding and instrumentation.

Notable Quote:

Charles Liu (@39:56): "If we understand how stars transfer energy outward, it affects everything orbiting them, including our ability to predict space weather."

---

Conclusion
Duration: 50:35 – 51:37

Neil deGrasse Tyson wraps up the episode by thanking Charles Liu for his insights and encouraging listeners to explore more about the discussed topics. The episode highlights the collaborative nature of scientific inquiry and the ongoing quest to unravel the universe's deepest mysteries.

---

Notable Quotes Recap:

• Charles Liu (@09:15): "All other forces have mediating particles. So gravity should have the graviton, and its detection is crucial for the standard model."

• Gary (@21:23): "Dark matter in our universe is 5/6 of the source of all gravity expressed here, but it drops off by the third power of distance in a fourth dimension."

• Charles Liu (@28:27): "Science is a process of learning what's right and wrong, allowing us to build a more complex and accurate understanding together."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of StarTalk Radio's "Cosmic Queries" delves deep into some of the most profound questions in astrophysics and cosmology. From the enigmatic nature of gravity and dark matter to the tantalizing possibilities of life on Europa and the mysteries of the sun’s corona, Neil deGrasse Tyson and his guests navigate complex theories with clarity and enthusiasm. Whether you're a seasoned science aficionado or a curious newcomer, this discussion offers valuable insights into the ever-expanding frontier of our understanding of the universe.

Keep Looking Up!

Transcript

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The Feathersnap Smart bird feeder brings the wild to your window, combining clever tech with nature's little surprises. It has a built in camera that captures photos and videos every time a bird stops by. And it connects to your phone for real time alerts and bird identification. It's solar powered, beautifully designed and so easy to use. It's the perfect gift for parents, grandparents, or anyone who loves nature. No experience required. Check out the Feather Snap Smart bird [e-mail] you ever walked around a neighborhood and wish you could see inside somewhere that was available for rent? Well, let me just give you a tip. Don't climb up on the ledge and look in the window. People will call the cops. Well, maybe you've walked past a place for rent and you wished you could peek inside. Maybe even explore the layout. Envision the natural light streaming through the windows. Or plan where your vinyl record collection would go. Well, at apartments.com you can. With tools like their 3D virtual tours, you can see the exact unit you could be living in and at all from the comfort of your couch. And if you end up wanting to see it in person, you can book a tour online without having to speak to a leasing rep. Really envision yourself in your new home with apartments.com the place to find a place if you.

[Chuck Nice]

Love a good mystery. And who doesn't? Check out the new season of the Secret of Skinwalker Ranch. Only on the History Channel. It's America's most mysterious location, known for strange lights, radiation spikes, tech malfunctions, and even UAP sightings. Now the team's investigation has led them to uncover real physical evidence of something unnatural buried inside the mesa. Can they uncover the truth once and for all? Don't miss a new episode of the Secret of Skinwalker ranch. Tuesday at 8, 7 Central on on the History Channel.

[Gary]

Gary's in the house. That must mean a StarTalk special edition is not far away.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Gary]

This time, cosmic queries.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's right.

[Gary]

Boy, we went everywhere.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Everywhere.

[Gary]

Black holes, white holes, white hole, parallel universe, universe.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And all the questions I gotta tell you were just awful.

[Chuck Nice]

Yes, absolutely.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You people need to step up your game.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, that was amazing.

[Gary]

Tune in and find out what the hell Chuck is talking about on StarTalk. Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk Special Edition, a cosmic queries variant on that. Why is it a special edition? Cosmic quirks. Because we have Gary in the house. Gary.

[Charles Liu]

Hey, Neil.

[Gary]

Where there's Gary. There is special edition because Gary is special.

[Charles Liu]

Yes.

[Chuck Nice]

As everyone knows.

[Gary]

Gary, always good to have you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Chuck, always a pleasure.

[Gary]

Back in the saddle.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's right.

[Gary]

Doing some cosmic queries. And this is grab bath.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Grab bath. Now, we used to call this galactic gumbo. Right now. Guaranteed.

[Gary]

Used to call it that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's right. Now come on down here now. Put some lil get you some air. And then we gonna move on having to get some good gumbo.

[Gary]

You know who else was in the hood was. All hail to the geek in chief, Charles Liu. All hail.

[Chuck Nice]

All hail all.

[Charles Liu]

You guys are sweet.

[Gary]

All hail to Charles Liu, visiting from the college of Staten island of the CUNY system. Thanks for coming by. My office here at the Hayden Planetarium.

[Charles Liu]

Always so much fun to be here today.

[Gary]

Do people know that he was involved when we opened this place? He was part of the scientific staff here that helped write exhibits and design things. And it's all there. So very cool. I just want to. We're now on our 25th anniversary of the opening of the Rose Center.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Wow.

[Gary]

And I just want to say thank you.

[Charles Liu]

It was my pleasure. Thank you for giving me the chance to do it.

[Gary]

And we co authored a book at the time called One Universe at home in the cosmos.

[Charles Liu]

Yes. With Robert earian.

[Gary]

With Robert earian. That's right. He was a science writer, the three of us. And it was a celebration of how we were bringing science down to Earth in this facility.

[Chuck Nice]

So we got the band back together.

[Gary]

Two thirds of the band back together. So this is a special edition grab bag. And I see we've broken it up into three categories. First one is black holes, but then the next one just mixed bag.

[Chuck Nice]

Yes. And then the third one is. More mixed bag.

[Gary]

More mixed bag. Thank you. Thank you.

[Chuck Nice]

Because we ran out of ideas.

[Gary]

Oh, by the way, both Charles and I might know the answer simultaneously.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay. But he's our teacher's science battle.

[Chuck Nice]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Two scientists enter, one scientist leaves.

[Gary]

Never cross the beams. But I defer to Charles on so many counts that I will sit here and just admire what comes out of his heart. Okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's easy to do.

[Gary]

All right, let's do this.

[Chuck Nice]

Having said all of that, we'll see.

[Gary]

We'll see. Go.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, Right. Tom Stergill said hello. Chuck, Charles. And Neil. He's in Florida. General relativity tells us that gravity is not a force, but a reaction of space time to mass.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Chuck Nice]

Quantum theory tells us there may be parallel universes. Instead of dark energy, might we be seeing the effect of the mass of these other Universes on our space time.

[Gary]

Damn, we got badass.

[Charles Liu]

What a great question to start, man. Excellent.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's a well thought out question.

[Charles Liu]

Yeah, it is.

[Gary]

But does that mean we have to like up our game? If that's who's watching our show?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

How do you want me to phrase it?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Or is it that there's another astrophysicist out there just like, let's see them deal with this. Get these a holes to see if they really know what they're talking about.

[Gary]

Okay, so start with the idea that is gravity really a force? I want to hear what you think about.

[Charles Liu]

That's wonderful, Tom. You're absolutely right that the general theory of relativity is a supersedent theory. Theory that covers, includes, I should say, Isaac Newton's original universal theory of gravity. And that is that on small scales, like scales of the Earth, scales of a solar system, for example, you cannot tell a difference.

[Gary]

Small things like the solar system.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Charles Liu]

You cannot tell the difference between acceleration and the curvature of space time, gravity.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Gotcha.

[Charles Liu]

So they will look almost exactly the same, and they should look exactly the same on very small scales. So there have been experiments done to show whether or not gravity is a true force or it is truly a curvature of space time. And so far the two of them follow that so called equivalence principle.

[Gary]

So it's both.

[Charles Liu]

It is both on the scales circumstantially. Right. In the circumstances that we are circumstantially, they're both. The exceptions come in extreme environments when you're not looking at sort of Earth like or local environments. Example is a black hole.

[Chuck Nice]

Right?

[Charles Liu]

Right. Where you might indeed have a circumstance where you can tell the difference between a gravitational activity, curvature of space time, gravitational activity, and a force that measures out exactly like that, curvature.

[Gary]

But how much of this is just semantics? Like who cares whether it's curvature or Newtonian if it accelerates an object Right. And let that just be the force. Why we even bickering over this?

[Charles Liu]

It matters because when we are trying to understand these extreme situations, such as a black hole or the beginning of the universe, there are subtle differences that do come into account. And you have to take them into account in order to get the science right.

[Gary]

Otherwise you get the wrong answer.

[Charles Liu]

That get the wrong answer.

[Gary]

Very good. Okay, but then we learn if you take physics class in chemistry about these other forces. Electromagnetic, the weak nuclear force. The strong nuclear force.

[Charles Liu]

Yes.

[Gary]

And then, you know, we add gravity as a fourth force there. But you're saying we shouldn't add gravity.

[Charles Liu]

The problem is that gravity is creating that very strange boundary condition. The standard model about particles that we use, you know, the quarks and the leptons and things like that, do not include a particle that moves gravity around. So if gravity is a fundamental force, there should exist a particle.

[Gary]

We expect there to be called a.

[Charles Liu]

Graviton, based on our understanding, because all other forces have these mediating particles. So a graviton must be detected.

[Gary]

But hang on. So what propagates the electromagnetic force? The photon, and what propagates the weak.

[Charles Liu]

Force, The W and Z particles.

[Gary]

That's obvious. What propagates the strong force?

[Charles Liu]

Gluons.

[Gary]

Gluons. So there ought to be keeping in the tradition of this sort of standard model of particles and their associated forces, the gravity should have a particle associated with it. And what was that?

[Charles Liu]

Be the graviton.

[Gary]

Graviton.

[Charles Liu]

Yes, that's right.

[Gary]

Photon, gluon, graviton, and the intermediate vector boson.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So now let me ask you this, though. Photon has no mass, right?

[Charles Liu]

Correct.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Gary]

None of the.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No. Does a gluon have a mass?

[Charles Liu]

Gluons do not have mass either.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

How about Y and z in.

[Charles Liu]

Actually, the W and Z part do have mass.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, that's. There you go.

[Charles Liu]

So that is the.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Tell us why that. What's going on about that?

[Charles Liu]

These particles are still being studied. We're trying to figure out what they are. Well, you know what? Maybe the concept of mass is in itself worth talking about for a moment because mass and energy are equivalent.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Charles Liu]

You can switch back and forth between them.

[Gary]

Absolutely.

[Charles Liu]

So when we say we have a massless particle, we're not saying that it has nothing. We're saying that it can carry energy which can be converted into mass under the right conditions. So a photon, for example, can have as much energy as a baseball. Of course, some of the most powerful photons, but they won't measure on a.

[Gary]

Scale a baseball thrown by a pitcher.

[Charles Liu]

Yeah, right.

[Gary]

Not just a baseball.

[Charles Liu]

That too. Well, equals MC squared. Right.

[Gary]

Implicit in your statement, it's a baseball thrown at 90 miles an hour.

[Charles Liu]

Yeah. So you have this huge amount of stuff that's there even though there is no mass. So given that one of the mysteries of the standard model and how our subatomic universe works is indeed what has mass and why and what doesn't have mass and why.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So can you call energy potential mass?

[Charles Liu]

You could.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You could call it that, yes.

[Charles Liu]

What happens now? We have to bring in Tom's concept of quantum physics. Right. General relativity and quantum mechanics have a real hard time connecting with each Other that when you try to use these ideas of particles to explain gravity or the motion of things, you get stuck. The theory, the math doesn't quite match. And so this speculation that Tom has about, hey, is a black hole which has general relativity, could it be affected by quantum physics and this idea of, in this case, the many worlds interpretation, could it be? It could, but the math doesn't show it yet. So this is actually a frontier that we're trying to wonder. Some folks have speculated that you could actually use quantum physics to communicate within black holes. So you go from the interior of one black hole and be able to transfer to the interior of another black hole, but it still wouldn't translate out into our universe.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

How would you ever find out? Because you can't get any of the information out of the black hole.

[Charles Liu]

So the math works in these speculative ways.

[Gary]

What the black hole stays as far as we know.

[Charles Liu]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The cosmic fight club never gets mentioned.

[Charles Liu]

We don't talk about the event horizon. Yeah. So stay tuned. Tom, is what I would say. Odds are what you just speculated is not the case. But mathematically, people are still working on ways to make it possible. And then we have to figure it out, we have to test it to see if we can make these predictions actually manifest in observation.

[Gary]

Do you think the day will come where we'll discover a graviton?

[Charles Liu]

Yes, we're pretty close already.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Charles Liu]

The reason we're close is because of the gravitational wave detectors that we found. Right. There are some people making calculations and saying, well, if gravitational waves actually do exist, which we have now shown they do, then there must be a graviton.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Charles Liu]

So the implication that gravitons exist is there. Now it's a matter of actually detecting one, and that is the bugaboo. The graviton is so low energy and there are so many of them that being able to pick one out or to have enough data to show that these particles actually exist is extremely difficult.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That is wild.

[Gary]

All right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right, man. Wow. I wish I spoke math.

[Charles Liu]

You do just fine.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Make every celebration feel uniquely you. Your dog's birthday coming up. Throw a pupperoni pizza party. Or maybe you're planning a game night. Make it a silent disco and charades night. From inspo to all the items you need. Amazon can help you create a truly custom celebration. From birthdays to holidays, Amazon offers convenient one stop shopping for any party. Shop everything for every party on Amazon.

[Gary]

Say hello to the new iced horchata shaken espresso from Starbucks. This handcrafted espresso Drink with hints of cinnamon and vanilla is shaken with ice and oat milk to create the perfect summer sip. Available for limited time at Starbucks.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Charles Liu]

I'm Nicholas Costella, and I'm a Proud supporter of StarTalk on Patreon. This is StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Let's go to Parker Mann, and he says, Parker Mann. Parker Mann. All right, Parker Man Greetings, Dr. Lou Tyson. Lord Nice. From Ventura, California. Parker Mann here. Thinking about colliding black holes, I wonder what happens just prior to the merger of the event horizons. Consider a binary pair of black holes slowly spiraling towards each other. Assuming the original stars were formed at the same time, they would have the same sense of rotation and revolution about each other. This would include the frame dragging around each body. Just before the horizons merge, the region between them will have a collision of sorts as the linear motions of frame dragging will be in the opposite directions. What effect would this confluence of opposing frame motions have? Might the stress on space time increase Hawking radiation temporarily or even possibly trigger vacuum decay if the holes were massive enough? Man, let me tell you something. First of all, don't be trying to get us to do your advanced physics homework. That's number one.

[Charles Liu]

All right?

[Chuck Nice]

Number two, make your questions shorter.

[Gary]

Exactly.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Holy crap. First of all, this is somebody who studies astrophysics.

[Gary]

He knows Tom, hands down. Tell us what frame dragging is.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So what's the deal?

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Frame dragging, colliding black hole.

[Charles Liu]

Yes. As you get closer and closer to event horizon, and as you're moving your time sense, the dilation becomes very visible. Right. So when you're in one direction compared to the other direction of rotation or motion or whatever you have, you'll actually wind up with a different view of the same object.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Charles Liu]

And that kind. That's sort of the basic general concept.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Because it's all about frame of reference.

[Charles Liu]

That's right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's all about.

[Charles Liu]

Because your frame of reference is being dragged by the gravitational curvature of spacetime time.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But wait, I mean, you. I think you have to show some. Show people what you're talking about. Because I don't think people understand when black holes. You're talking about. You're actually talking about something that is tangible but not tangible. And they're moving towards each other.

[Charles Liu]

That's right. And they do this spiral round and around around that and then they hit each other. Right, right.

[Gary]

Just to be. Just to be clear, hardly ever in the universe are two objects falling towards each other on exactly the same line. For a close.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's not like two trains on the same train.

[Gary]

They're not right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's not like.

[Gary]

Exactly. So there's always some non alignment. And when there's non alignment, you have the opportunity for spiraling in. That's correct.

[Charles Liu]

So this question, which Parker man has done. Wait, is Parker a new superhero? Parker Man. Anyway, as Parker is saying here. Parker, you're saying it exactly right. Right. You're wondering what the interaction is between two black holes as they spiral closer. Closer. And the answer is gravitational waves. You get gravitational waves released and you get this energy that comes off. And the way that the black hole collides does lead to differences in what kind of energy gets released and in what quantity and in what direction and things like that. So your question, the answer, the very short answer to that question, Neil, you can tell me if I'm wrong is yes. Okay. To all those things. Those are all possibilities. And then which individual collisions cause what kinds of things to squirt out? That is still a subject of intense.

[Gary]

Research and up to the geometry of what's going on.

[Charles Liu]

Yeah.

[Gary]

But also he did comment on something that I wish were true, but it's not the betting person's odds for it to be true.

[Charles Liu]

Right.

[Gary]

That the dark matter.

[Charles Liu]

Yes.

[Gary]

What we call dark matter is ordinary matter in another universe whose gravity is spilling into this, into our universe.

[Charles Liu]

That was Tom's concept, right?

[Gary]

Yeah, yeah. So I'm all for that. Even though I know dark matter is probably some more exotic particle.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's right.

[Gary]

But that wasn't directly related to the black hole question. It was just a side point.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Charles Liu]

It's a thing that would be cool. Like you said, very cool. There's some mathematical possibilities.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, it opens up so many.

[Gary]

What I learned talking to Brian Green about. Was it Brian or the other Brian. Brian Cox. Brian Green.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Brian Green, yeah.

[Gary]

I hang with both.

[Charles Liu]

Brian May.

[Gary]

Brian May as well.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Charles Liu]

Oh wait, that's Freddie. Sorry.

[Gary]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Just the guitar, I think.

[Charles Liu]

Yeah.

[Gary]

Did he follow what we're talking about? Brian May of the. The group.

[Charles Liu]

The guitarist, please. For Queen.

[Gary]

For Queen.

[Charles Liu]

Really?

[Chuck Nice]

You had to ask.

[Charles Liu]

He has a PhD.

[Chuck Nice]

No, he's a physicist.

[Charles Liu]

PhD in astrophysicist.

[Gary]

That you're in this conversation that Charles and I are having.

[Chuck Nice]

Yes.

[Gary]

Brian May of Queen is an astrophysicist, has a PhD in astrophysics.

[Chuck Nice]

I'm Brian Cope.

[Charles Liu]

Earned.

[Gary]

After he. After Queen.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

After Queen dissolved.

[Gary]

That's correct.

[Charles Liu]

Queen hasn't technically dissolved.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, okay.

[Charles Liu]

The Queen just keeps bringing in.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Like Foreigner.

[Charles Liu]

Yes. Right.

[Gary]

So what I learned from him, which made complete sense is for every dimension you add to the strength of a force emanating from a point, the strength of that force is diluted by the power of R to that dimension. Okay. So in other words, if it's just flat, you can ask how quickly does a cone spread out and that goes one over R squared.

[Charles Liu]

If it's flat, the area of the cone grows as one over R. No.

[Gary]

No, there's no area. There's just the surface. It's just the perimeter.

[Charles Liu]

Yeah, sure, yeah. If you're talking perimeter.

[Gary]

Yeah, it's just the perimeter. That's a strength at the perimeter. So on a flat surface, the strength drops off as one over R. Gotcha. If you are a volume. So that's two dimensions. Right. And in a three dimensional volume, the strength drops off as the surface of the sphere gets bigger. That's R squared. If you have four dimensions, there's some dimension going out of this. Spatial dimensions going out of this universe into the next universe has to. That's a higher dimension and that's the dimension through which their gravity would leak.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Gary]

So it would.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So the power of their gravity would drop off precipitously at one of the. One over the third. One over R to the third power. Third power.

[Gary]

Which is way faster than ordinary gravity in this universe. Which means that currently dark matter in Our universe is 5/6 of the source of all gravity expressed in this universe.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right?

[Charles Liu]

Correct.

[Gary]

Is dominating this universe.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Gary]

So it's already dominating this universe. And it's dropped off by the third power of distance in a fourth dimension.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Which means we can never go where it comes from.

[Gary]

That's some hell of high gravity in the other universe.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You can never go there.

[Gary]

Right, right. So I'm eating lunch and I almost like choked eating lunch with. I think it was Brian Greene and it was like, wow, I had not thought of that. Because it has to come out of their dimensionality into this other dimension to reach us.

[Charles Liu]

If that's the way dark matter works.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

If it works.

[Gary]

Yeah. But he's a particle.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's really cool though.

[Charles Liu]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's kind of cool because it's basically this universal pressure that we're feeling from this other universe. And it's really just for them a leaky pipe.

[Charles Liu]

So, man, my bathroom has got water all over the floor and it's messing the whole universe.

[Gary]

But I hope they don't, because we all fly apart. Oh my gosh.

[Chuck Nice]

If that can come through, what else?

[Gary]

I'm not an expert on where in quantum physics you learn just how all these forces propagate. But I am told by those whose knowledge I trust and value that the other forces cannot exit their space time, but gravity can. And explain to me more than once and I try to follow and I just nod. But they said it very casually. It's not like guess what it was like. Of course, the people in the know.

[Charles Liu]

Know this for Parker and for Tom. Also, I would recommend you look up something called Randall Sundrum theory. Okay. Which suggests that gravity's leakage from another space time dimension could indeed lead to the things that we're talking about right now. Lisa's book.

[Gary]

Lisa Randall. Yeah. So she wrote a book called Warped Passages, which is an exploration into higher dimensions. Very cool. So, yeah, she's a friend, she's a contemporary of ours. We came up together in graduate school.

[Charles Liu]

Oh, awesome. Not me.

[Gary]

Yes. So she's a professor up at Harvard in the department of physics.

[Chuck Nice]

So stronger gravity moves, migrates to our.

[Charles Liu]

Dimensions, our space time becomes very weak.

[Gary]

Yeah, okay, but it's like it's biological.

[Charles Liu]

More of like a tunneling rather than a diffusion.

[Gary]

Yeah, that's better.

[Charles Liu]

But to be continued. Yeah, guys, look it up. It's really quite cool.

[Chuck Nice]

Let's jump into our mixed bag.

[Charles Liu]

Okay.

[Chuck Nice]

Matt Koda, Mac Coda M A T. Oh, Matt. Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I mean Paris.

[Chuck Nice]

Paris, France rather than Paris, Texas.

[Charles Liu]

Okay.

[Gary]

Did he say that?

[Chuck Nice]

Yes, he does. So I was going to give him the credit for it.

[Gary]

Did he not think that we're cultured enough? No, I think he most of Paris across the ocean.

[Chuck Nice]

Well, I think he wants to make the difference.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Listen, if you're in France, believe me, you don't want to be associated with Texas in any way. Let's be honest, you know dexos.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah. Recent supernova data is revealing something mind bending about our universe. Instead of mysterious dark energy, scientists found evidence that time itself flows at different rates throughout space. Faster in the vast empty voids, slower where matter clumps together. I think that's a scientific term like Einstein's time dilation, but on a cosmic scale. Are we witnessing our generation's Copernican moment where our basic understanding of the cosmos needs to be rewritten. If this new model is right, what does it mean for the fate of our universe?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Interesting.

[Charles Liu]

Wow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Wow, Charles.

[Charles Liu]

I have not read.

[Gary]

Get us out of that.

[Charles Liu]

I have not read those papers. So I cannot tell you whether it is actually a Copernican revolution right now or not.

[Gary]

What we're thinking he's referring to is that may be a way to interpret the data. But another way was that Einstein's cosmological constant can vary from one time in the universe to another, whereas in his equations it is a constant. Okay, so something has to give here.

[Charles Liu]

And well, in his original equation it was just lambda. Right. But lambda as a function of time has been built into equations after he first proposes. So lambda of T is certainly something that is mathematically possible, but his theory.

[Gary]

Did not allow for that. So if his theory is an accurate description of the world, then what we're saying is then the world can't have a time dependent lambda. And if the world does have a time dependent lambda, then his theory is not complete.

[Charles Liu]

He knew his theory was not complete when he designed it.

[Gary]

That's true.

[Charles Liu]

That's the whole point. Yeah. This is, I think exactly what Mott is describing. Right. Is it time to supplement a long standing theory with something new? Right. And so whether it's a Copernican moment. Not. I think there are probably other interpretations that would be simpler to follow Occam's razor and not necessarily have to require brand new physics. Right. For example, if we have a big clump of matter, we know that it acts like a gravitational lens. Right. And gravitational lensing will cause, for example, the light coming from a distant object behind the lens to appear to have curved around it. Right. And so that result could much more easily explain these observations of these supernova that it's more a gravitational lensing effect or some more complicated thing that we don't understand than the need to bring in a whole new varying cosmological constant kind of physical.

[Gary]

And I would add a point that recently in an explainer that I did with Chuck titled On being Wrong where Copernicus himself was Wrong. And you have to ask, well, do we throw out the entire idea that the sun is in the middle of the universe or do we look for some adjustment to this basic idea? And 50 years later Kepler would discover.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

An ellipses as opposed to perfect circles.

[Gary]

And so there are aspects of his idea that needed modification without throwing out the whole idea. So I'm with Charles on this, that it could be an important scientific moment, but not on the scale of a Copernican moment.

[Charles Liu]

So, Matt, even if you are wrong, that's not necessarily bad. Right? This is, I think, what science helps us understand. If we understand that science is a process of learning what's right and wrong. We're not demanding that I am right, you go home, but rather I'm right in this aspect, you're right in that aspect. And together we reach something that's more complex than either of us could have achieved.

[Gary]

We are the world.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Charles Liu]

We are the children.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Excellent.

[Chuck Nice]

They're singing again.

[Gary]

And by the way, the fact that this person, his name Matt. Matt, who wrote us from Paris, France, means he, as a Parisian, presumably has not been offended by your imitations of Parisians of French people.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, let's hope not, because quite frankly, my bad imitation of French people is pretty spot on.

[Charles Liu]

Ooh la na.

[Gary]

And 100% of them are smoking a cigarette.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes. The French have the best lungs in the world, apparently, because they can all withstand smoking. You know, my lungs are so obnoxious that the smoke does not stand a job.

[Charles Liu]

Sorry, Mike. Sorry about that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay. I'm sorry. That was funny. I don't care what y' all say.

[Gary]

That was funny.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That was funny.

[Gary]

That was funny. Dude. We're taking too long to answer these questions.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Let's speed it up, all right? Okay, here we go. This is Trisha Lynch. Hello. Dr. Tyson. Trisha Lynch.

[Gary]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And she says hello, Dr. Tyson. Dr. Lou Lord. Nice, Gary. Tricia from Beaverton, Oregon, here. If there really is life under the water of Europa or one of the other moons, will there be any way for us to observe it without possible cross contamination?

[Charles Liu]

Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. You probably have more about this than I do.

[Gary]

Well, we did a whole episode on the. You wrote the Clipper mission. It's in our archives. Check it out.

[Charles Liu]

Yeah. NASA has an Office of Planetary Protection.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Correct.

[Charles Liu]

And its primary goal is to make sure that cross contamination does not happen.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

By saving us from Thanos.

[Charles Liu]

For example, there's a very famous short story, award winning short story written by physicist David Brin called the Giving Plague, where we bring back a pathogen from Mars.

[Gary]

Not the Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein. By Shel Silverstein.

[Charles Liu]

Right. Different books. The number one most important thing is to make sure that our spacecraft don't crash. Right? We want to make sure that their orbits are solid, that they have enough boosting situation, and at the end of the mission, we dispose of the spacecraft in a way that will not contaminate any potential environments. This is what happened with both the Galileo space probe and the Cassini space probe around Jupiter and Saturn respectively.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But we crashed Cassini purposely.

[Charles Liu]

And we crashed Galileo purposely as well.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And did we?

[Charles Liu]

But we crashed them into the atmospheres of Jupiter and Saturn in such a.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Way that we know that they will all burn up.

[Charles Liu]

Oh, yeah, exactly. Instead of landing somewhere and contaminating the space, they would all just be burnt up.

[Chuck Nice]

We're not so careful about our own space.

[Charles Liu]

Sadly, no. We have an issue in our local near Earth orbit ecosystem. We are quickly approaching the point where astronomy being done from Earth is being very badly affected by all of the stuff that's going on.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Because you get a bunch of reflections and a bunch of crossings, streaks, streaks, all kinds of terrible things that mess up your information.

[Charles Liu]

That's right. It makes it quite difficult. But fortunately that is not yet the case, as far as we know, in places like Europa. So once you make sure your spacecraft isn't going to crash, the next thing you do is you find remote sensing strategies. So, for example, we can look through the ice on the crust of Mars to see what's down there. So we can in fact do the same thing without landing something on there through things like the kind of radar that we use.

[Gary]

Mars, Are you talking about. What are you talking about? Crust of Mars, what are you talking about?

[Charles Liu]

There's ice.

[Gary]

I mean, at the poles.

[Charles Liu]

At the poles. Okay, okay, yes. In fact, there are continents full of ice. There's a lot of it.

[Gary]

So ice penetrating radar.

[Charles Liu]

Yes. So in the same way that we have here even our weather radar, can.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We have a big machine that melts the ice that made the former Martian atmosphere? Are we able to see it?

[Charles Liu]

If it's there, we can see it. If it's there, we could see it.

[Gary]

The Martian technologies.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes, exactly.

[Charles Liu]

Yes.

[Gary]

Let's get to the chocolate.

[Charles Liu]

Total Recall. Ay Yai Yai. One of the most traumatic science fiction movies I've ever seen. But the book about that, Right? We can remember it for you wholesale. Written by Philip K. Dick. That's kind of a cool book to read sometime.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Why do you know this? Exactly. That's so wild. So wild.

[Gary]

We only just know the movie.

[Charles Liu]

It's a thing.

[Chuck Nice]

Charles knows things.

[Gary]

Okay, fine. I forgot to remind. That's why we have him on the show. Okay, do we answer the question? Was it?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, man. Is it possible to do it without cross contamination? The fact is, we've already done it.

[Gary]

Wait, so with the ice penetrating radar, it probably won't see Microorganisms. But if there's a macroscopic fish, it'll see it, right?

[Charles Liu]

That's right, yeah. Okay, and then therein lies the next point. Let's say we do find beautiful blue whales or something, you know, or gigantic whale, shark, fish type things down there. What do we do next? How do we study them and communicate and so forth. Right. Are they edible?

[Gary]

That is not my first thought, Charles.

[Charles Liu]

Then the Office of Planetary Protection really has to think hard. Are we gonna put a submarine that goes down there? Do we want something that goes below the surface? And in that case, how do we protect the ecosystem? Do we have any idea?

[Gary]

And the good thing about Europa is the ice cracks, water comes up and refreezes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Refreezes.

[Gary]

So there's a suggestion that if we just pitch tent on the surface, let it slowly sink in, we could dig up some of the material that came up and froze and then possibly see.

[Charles Liu]

Without having to cause problems, fish that.

[Gary]

Happen to get caught up in it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And we could do what we do in Alaska and that is cut a hole and just drop a pole. Yes, a line.

[Charles Liu]

What do you mean we do?

[Gary]

In a way, you Inuit, we do like there's something like you do this may have done.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm just saying, you know what makes a great gift? Something people actually use and that makes them smile. Every single day, the Feather Snap smart bird feeder brings the wild to your window. Combining clever tech with nature's little surprises, the FeatherSnap Smart Bird Feeder has a built in camera that captures high quality photos and videos every time a bird stops by. Motion detection sends real time alerts to your device so you can enjoy watching your feathered visitors from anywhere. Plus, the Feather Snap app identifies the feathered visitors at the feeder and even gives you fun facts about the species. Whether it's birthdays, holidays, or just a thinking of you surprise. This is the perfect gift for everyone who loves nature. Now full disclosure, I not really the biggest fan of birds. I don't like anything with air superiority. But my daughter loves them. And so she begged me for a birdhouse, which we put up. And then we found out about Feather Snap and so of course we had to get one. And guess what? She loves it. Every day she comes home from school, she runs to her iPad to check which one of her little friends stopped by for for a meal. And she loves identifying which birds are which. And full disclosure, once again, I'm kind of a fan of birds now. Who knew bird watching was so much fun? Well, find out for yourself. Check out the Feather Snap smart bird [e-mail] that's feathersnap.com this episode is brought.

[Chuck Nice]

To you by Progressive where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on aver plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states. And this is an ad for the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game with your mum or grabbing a coffee with your dog, earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Say it with me, the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply so hello, Dr. Tyson. Dr. Lou. And I am assuming Chuck and Gary and assumed you have.

[Charles Liu]

Right.

[Chuck Nice]

I am Lily Rose from Virginia. My question is what data can the recent probe flying close to the sun give us? How can we use this mission in the future to explore the nature of other stars in our galaxy? I was very curious about the goals of this mission. Thank you all for that and all for what you do.

[Gary]

Thank you.

[Charles Liu]

Great question.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That is a great question.

[Charles Liu]

Did you do something about the Parker solar probe recently?

[Gary]

We did. We did a. We did an explainer on it. Yeah. Yeah. It was more just to put it in context for people who've never heard of it. I don't know how deeply we went into the science that would come of it. We just know that it went faster than any previous spacecraft, closer to the sun than any previous spacecraft, got hotter than any previous spacecraft. It was gonna study the solar wind, of course, solar flares, the particle fluxes, this sort of thing.

[Charles Liu]

I see. Well, solar science has a number of amazing questions which surprisingly, we still don't know the answer to. Even though the sun is so close to us.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Charles Liu]

Only 93 million miles away. One such question is the transition from the surface of the sun, the photosphere, which is about 11,000 degrees Fahrenheit, out to the.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

11,000.

[Charles Liu]

Yeah, 11,000.

[Gary]

Well, he just started here. Give him a chance.

[Charles Liu]

Out to the corona of the sun, which is millions of degrees. Millions of degrees. It has to. Actually, you'd imagine that the further away you get from the sun, the colder it gets. But no, after it gets colder and colder and colder, suddenly right in that boundary, roughly where the particles get less.

[Gary]

And less and less warm. Okay, not cold. There's no part of the sun that's cold.

[Charles Liu]

Fair enough. Fair enough. As you get to that boundary, suddenly right in the area where the Parker solar probe is starting to probe, it has to heat up again. What energies are being transferred? What kinds of mechanisms are growing your temperature again from 10,000 to millions?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So now, wait, is there a cooling, or is it literally we see a decrease in temperature?

[Charles Liu]

Yes.

[Gary]

Then all of a sudden, to the surface.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

To the surface from the photosphere. But then we get to the corona, and all of a sudden it heats.

[Charles Liu]

That's right.

[Gary]

Between the photosphere.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Between this photosphere and the corona. Now, but is there any reaction that we can, like, identify that might be making something like this happen?

[Gary]

Hence the solar probe.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, my God. I came up with an idea. Why don't we send something to investigate?

[Charles Liu]

That's right.

[Chuck Nice]

Is this temperature change completely around the circumference, or is it isolated pockets piece by piece?

[Charles Liu]

Really, it's kind of like an envelope, but the envelope has holes in it. So it's inhomogeneous, Heterogeneous, shall we say. And also, there is actually a layer there between the photosphere and the corona. It's called the chromosphere. And that area is very mysterious to us. So all of our hypotheses here on earth about how that heating happens and what the energy transfer is from the surface of a star out into space need to be tested with data. So the Parker solar probe helps us understand how stars transfer that energy outward, and that affects everything that's orbiting those.

[Gary]

Stars, such as planets, which NASA calls space weather. Right. And so, just to put a little molecular talk in here, so temperature is the average vibration speed of molecules. So you get to the surface of the sun, and there they are vibrating. And now something happens where now they're vibrating faster. Right. Okay. So something's flinging them out. Some energy source is pumping it. But the corona is very rarefied. So would you, holding aside the radiation of the sun itself?

[Charles Liu]

Sure.

[Gary]

If you're in a bath of a million degrees with only, like, a molecule hitting you here and here, what would that feel like to you?

[Charles Liu]

It wouldn't feel like much. The irony is, although the temperature of the corona is millions of degrees, if you put a potato in the corona, in the corona, it really wouldn't bake because the amount of Heat in this plasma is tiny per unit volume. So in the volume of a potato, you wouldn't actually have enough heat in there to bake the potato. But with the energy flowing through it over long periods of time, you would fry that potato and dissolve it into atoms in due course because the energy is so. Flow is strong, the energy density is low. And so these are the kinds of contradictions that we need to get data on that the Parker solar probe can help us understand.

[Gary]

And just so we're on the same page, a cup of coffee is hot, but an iceberg has more heat, more total heat than a cup of coffee, because heat is the total added vibrational energy of all the molecules. And a cup of coffee, the 10 you put a thermometer will read something different, but the total energy is different.

[Chuck Nice]

How are we getting information back?

[Charles Liu]

Because it gets transferred through radio and things like that.

[Gary]

Okay, so it's got a shield, by the way. Yeah, so I said it got hotter than anything before. The shield actually keeps the electronics quite cool.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay, so what's the time?

[Charles Liu]

8 minutes.

[Gary]

Only 8 minutes and 20 seconds.

[Charles Liu]

Of course, because it's the same as.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's the same as all lights, pretty much. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

[Gary]

Yeah. 8 minutes and 20 seconds is. Equals how many seconds?

[Chuck Nice]

I don't know. I'm not going to sit here.

[Gary]

And 500 seconds. This is a nice round number.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's cool.

[Gary]

Yeah. All right.

[Chuck Nice]

Just so you know, I'm better for the knowledge now.

[Gary]

You will never forget that.

[Chuck Nice]

Thank you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right. This is Oleksandr Samulenko. Samol.

[Gary]

Oleksandr.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oleksandr.

[Charles Liu]

Sounds Ukrainian.

[Gary]

That sounds eastern block.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Listen, he says, hello, Dr. Tyson, Dr. Liu. Chuck. Gary. I'm Oleksandr from. Oh, Kiev. Hey, Ukraine.

[Gary]

Charles was on the case.

[Charles Liu]

He was a wild guess.

[Gary]

I just said Eastern bloc. That's all I said.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right?

[Gary]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

He says, here's my question. Can it be that our entire universe exists in its own time loop? Big Bang happens, then we appear, develop science, find out all underlying building blocks of the universe, then ignite a new universe. When this one starts to fall apart, let there be light. As a matter of fact. So our universe is sort of a gin particle.

[Charles Liu]

Let me point you. Aleksandr, thank you for this great question to a short story written by Isaac Asimov that Isaac himself said was his favorite amongst everything he wrote. It's called the Last Question.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The Last Question.

[Charles Liu]

Yes. And this was Isaac's own way of trying to figure out this very question that you described. In fact, Cosmology's all throughout the world.

[Gary]

Tell us the story.

[Charles Liu]

No, buy the book. It's a short story. It's very quick. I'm not gonna spoil a single thing about that story.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Now you gotta go read. Look at this.

[Gary]

It's a brilliantly written, clean story, by the way.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Look at Chuck Lew giving us homework.

[Charles Liu]

It's the professor in me. I'm sorry, Chuck.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's how it goes.

[Gary]

I'm trying to sneak out the answers here. He's slapping me down. So, Isaac Asimov, I don't know if you know, he never flew anywhere for whatever reasons. And he was a native New Yorker. If you ever heard him speak, that would be obvious. And he was a friend of this museum.

[Charles Liu]

Yes.

[Gary]

In fact, most of the research done on his physics, astro and biology novels and nonfiction books were researched out of our library here at the American Museum of Natural History.

[Charles Liu]

Very, very cool.

[Gary]

And we have an annual panel debate in his honor. The Isaac Asimov Memorial Panel.

[Charles Liu]

And let me give a shout out to his late wife, also Janet Jepson Asimov, who was a writer in her own right.

[Gary]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Look at that.

[Charles Liu]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So what's the deal?

[Charles Liu]

The deal is very simple.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Could we. Could we be a gem particle?

[Charles Liu]

We could, but we don't have the evidence to confirm that yet. This is a speculation that's gone on in cosmologies all around the world for all of human civilization.

[Gary]

Yeah, but how would we end?

[Charles Liu]

I don't know.

[Gary]

Unless we re. Collapse and then start.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But we wouldn't end.

[Charles Liu]

We need.

[Gary]

Right now. It doesn't.

[Charles Liu]

Look, the point is we need new physics. Right. The physics as we have, it has to be complete.

[Gary]

It's the physics we already.

[Charles Liu]

Oh, I'm very happy with it, but I also think it's incomplete. If there is no more physics to be had about the expansion of the universe, it will just go on forever. And that's it. But if there were.

[Gary]

To the Big rip.

[Charles Liu]

That's right. But what if there were something else? And we're not sure that that's the case yet. Right. If there is something like vacuum decay, which I know it's just a word I just threw around. I'm so sorry. The. The idea that our vacuum energy level in the universe is a false vacuum, and in fact there is still energy hiding in there, and some cataclysmic event could cause that energy to be released.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We have a rift.

[Charles Liu]

This is all physics that has mathematical roots, but does not have experimental verification in cosmic queries.

[Gary]

A StarTalk book. There's a whole section on this very topic.

[Charles Liu]

That's right there is. It's very spooky and scary. It's very, very cool. It's not spooky and scary. It's cool. I think it's really neat. The possibility of it happening anytime in our lifetimes or even in the human species lifetime is miniscule. But the chances of it happening eventually, that's non zero. And imagine if that is the way that our universe reignites itself. In fact, if the conditions before our Big Bang were such that it happened before, and this continues depending on the state of the universe, energy densities, matter densities, whatever, then indeed, this particular idea of a cyclical universe that continues and comes back, each time being a little bit different than the next time, but with the same laws of physics. Alexander, you know, you're not that far off from what a lot of theoretical physicists are thinking right now.

[Gary]

I would add. I want to give a little punctuation to his comment about this false vacuum. If you have a puddle of water sitting in a.

[Charles Liu]

A puddle.

[Gary]

Thank you. So you have like a ledge and then a little sort of depression there and another ledge over here. So there's an area where water collects.

[Charles Liu]

Okay.

[Gary]

You can say is that the lowest energy state the water can be in. Well, on the other side of this ledge, it can get lower. So we can be living in here thinking we're stable.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Gary]

But that's not the most stable configuration of that puddle. The most stable here is this other place. This other place. The lower part.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The lower part.

[Gary]

So in the quantum construction of the universe, it is possible for this puddle to tunnel through this barrier and then spill down and occupy this next place.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Gary]

And the state of our universe is not at a stable base. There's the. For me, a fear factor that we can end up tunneling into some other place that has whole other rules and other. I don't know what'll happen. We all die.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Somebody's draining the pool.

[Charles Liu]

Let me just make sure everyone knows that 2025 has been designated the International Year of Quantum Science and Technology by the United Nations.

[Gary]

Well, your book came out just in time then.

[Charles Liu]

It did.

[Gary]

The handy. The handy Quantum Physics Answer book. Answer book. One in a series of three. You're like their main guy. You have one of physics and astronomy and quantum physics. Quantum physics came out just in time.

[Charles Liu]

Yes.

[Gary]

Okay.

[Charles Liu]

So everybody please enjoy. This conversation we're having right now is. I hope it's just the springboard of you all going out and checking out more of this.

[Gary]

So why is it this year it's.

[Charles Liu]

The hundredth anniversary of what most people designate as sort of the firm foundational birth of quantum physics, the whole 1920s.

[Gary]

But you slap it right in the middle.

[Charles Liu]

Yeah.

[Gary]

And you've got, you've got, you've got the origin. You've got the origin story of quantum physics. Charles, good to have you, man.

[Charles Liu]

Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure. It's so great to talk to everybody. And your questions are marvelous. I love that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I just bought your book, dude.

[Charles Liu]

Thank you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I just bought your book.

[Gary]

Did you get one for each of us?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No.

[Gary]

Get the camera.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I got one for each of you in the quantum, so you have to tunnel and get my book.

[Charles Liu]

Thank you.

[Chuck Nice]

Jeff, can you buy me a shovel?

[Gary]

Charles, good to have you, man, as always, dude.

[Charles Liu]

Really appreciate it.

[Gary]

Love to the family, everybody.

[Charles Liu]

Thank you.

[Gary]

And you too, Gary.

[Chuck Nice]

Pleasure.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Always a pleasure.

[Gary]

All right, Neil Degrasse Tyson here for another episode of Star Talk special edition. This time, Cosmic Queries. Till next time. Keep looking up.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here, if you haven't heard. I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Unknown]

Are you having sex with Bileesi? Well, if you have low sex drive like millions of other women, you might be missing out. Bileesi or Bremelanotide is clinically proven to increase sex drive in certain women. It's the first and only FDA approved as needed treatment for low sex drive. Put low sex drive in its place and go to vilesi.com for a telemedicine appointment to learn if Bileesi is right for you. That's v y l E-E-S I.com Vilisi is a princess. Prescription medicine used to treat hypoactive sexual desire disorder in premenopausal women who have not had problems with low sexual desire in the past and have low sexual desire. No matter the type of sexual activity situation or partner, the low sexual desire is troubling to them and is not due to medical, mental health or relationship problems or medicine or other drug use. Do not use vilesi if you have uncontrolled hypertension or known heart disease. The most common side effects include nausea, flushing, injection site reactions, headache and vomiting. Consult your healthcare professional for more information and see full [e-mail] or call 800-922-1038. Go to vi.com for a telemedicine appointment to find out if Vylisi is right for you. That's v y l E-E-S-I.com.