Cosmic Queries – Multiverse Nesting Dolls

Summary

StarTalk Radio: Cosmic Queries – Multiverse Nesting Dolls

Host: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Co-host: Paul Mercurio
Release Date: December 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

Main Theme:
This episode of StarTalk’s “Cosmic Queries” is a grab-bag focused overwhelmingly on the mind-bending physics and metaphysics of black holes, multiverse theory, and wormholes. Neil and comedian Paul Mercurio field listener questions about everything from whether we’re living inside a black hole, to what the fate of the universe might be, to the philosophical implications of Nietzsche’s eternal recurrence. The conversation combines cosmic science with humor, making esoteric topics accessible and entertaining.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Are We Living Inside a Black Hole? (06:05 – 10:53)

• Question: Could our universe be inside a black hole, and if black holes can merge in our “parent universe,” would we notice?
• Neil: Black holes are "black" from the outside, but inside, you'd see light funneled from the outside. If our black hole merged with another, "you'd see the other black hole collide with you. The event horizons would merge, and all matter would join."
  • "[When black holes merge] you'll join each other, have a common envelope, and a common event horizon...all headed towards the singularity." (07:05)
• Nested universes: The “nesting dolls” idea is invoked—universes inside black holes inside universes, possibly endlessly.
• The conversation turns humorous about neglectful cosmic “parents” in this nested family tree.

2. What Lies Beyond Black Holes? (09:41 – 12:11)

• Question: What’s beyond a black hole?
• Neil: Down the center is a singularity, but for spinning black holes, the interior could form a new spacetime—a new universe.
  • Introduces the theory of “cosmic natural selection,” where universes that favor black hole creation produce more baby universes.
  • Analogy: "Cosmic tribbles... they're born pregnant." (11:26) – Universes prolific with black holes endlessly spawn new universes.

3. Observing and Confirming Black Hole Theories (15:53 – 21:32)

• Question: How is Hawking’s theory about black holes tested, given their distance?
• Neil: "We have yet to see any edges where quantum mechanics fails us. That's why we're on board with Hawking radiation." (19:29)
  • Explains Hawking radiation can only be inferred by trusting quantum mechanics, not direct observation.
  • Observationally, we infer black holes from the energetic chaos and gravitational effects (e.g., X-ray emissions from accretion disks, orbits of stars, gravitational waves).

4. Gravity Slingshots and Navigating Around Black Holes (21:36 – 27:43)

• Question: Could we use a black hole for a slingshot maneuver like in “The Martian”?

• Neil: Gravity slingshots are real (all missions to outer planets use them), but only work due to planetary motion. "It's not the gravity; it's the relative motion that gives you the energy boost." (23:19)

  • With black holes: Only useful if the black hole is moving in your desired direction—which is not likely!

• Bonus Anecdote: Neil’s story about drafting behind a truck to save gas, paralleling “drafting” in space navigation. (25:09)

  • “I got within about 20ft and it went to 99mpg… so I was completely enclosed…” (26:30)

5. Time Dilation, Spaghettification & Perceptions Near Event Horizons (28:30 – 33:23)

• Question: Does time stop at a black hole's event horizon?
• Neil: Early ideas (Walter Sullivan’s “Frozen Star”): to distant observers, objects falling in appear to freeze at the horizon. Modern understanding: you actually pass through the event horizon without incident ("you're absorbed") but can't escape.
  • "It's as you approach the singularity, deep in the center…where these effects become significant." (31:11)
• Paul mines dark comedy around work meetings and time dilation.

6. Science Education for Neurodiverse Learners (33:29 – 39:52)

• Question: How to learn physics with ADHD if reading is hard?
• Neil: Recommends his book Letters from an Astrophysicist (bite-sized Q&A), the Merlin books, and audiobooks he narrates himself (“with my Barry White voice”). (38:17)
• Broader Point:
  • "School systems value grades more than students value learning. This is why people cheat." (46:48)
• Adds: Khan Academy has helpful lessons, and discusses the distinction between “theory” and “law.”

7. Nietzsche’s Eternal Recurrence & Multiverse Philosophy (40:52 – 44:49)

• Question: Will everything that happens happen again?
• Neil: Discusses “infinite universes in the multiverse creates all possible configurations,” but “another version of you isn’t really you.”
  • "We have twins. Identical in every way. They're not having the same thoughts. They're different people, but they're identical." (44:46)
• Paul laments alternate selves being stuck on hold with customer service “forever.”

8. From Theory to Law & What Does ‘Proof’ Mean? (47:46 – 52:51)

• Question: Is atomic fission natural, and why are Einstein’s ideas still called “theory”?
• Neil: Science no longer upgrades theories to “laws” after learning that “laws” have limits (e.g., Newton’s laws break down at relativistic scales).
  • "It's not we're waiting for the theory to become a law. That's not how this works…Theories explain and organize evidence, but with limits." (48:33)
• “Proof” isn’t a concept in science—just overwhelming evidence.

9. Are Black Holes Fossilized Wormholes? (53:14 – 55:10)

• Question: Are black holes the fossil remains of collapsed wormholes?
• Neil: Wormholes are not stable in theory; they require “negative gravity” matter we don’t have. Black holes aren’t one-way wormholes; they swallow and don’t allow return.
  • "When I think of wormholes, I want to step through and land somewhere else and be able to step back...Black holes don't give you that option." (54:57)

10. Should Humanity Focus on Surviving the Sun’s Demise? (55:49 – 59:55)

• Question: Since the Sun will destroy us in 5 billion years, should our focus be survival?
• Neil: "We will surely go extinct for 22 other reasons before then," listing asteroids, viruses, and climate change. (57:16)
  • Jokes about “future Amazon Prime wormholes”—refrigerators with intergalactic wormhole doors for food delivery.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Neil deGrasse Tyson:

  • "Gravity is symmetrical...if it’s just pure gravity, you don’t gain anything." (23:19)
  • "We’re not waiting for the theory to become a law. That’s not how science works anymore." (48:43)
  • "No such thing as 'just a theory'...Einstein had a theory, you have a hypothesis." (51:24)
  • "If you're not a good reader, maybe you're a good listener. Those two Merlin books? Yeah, I narrated them—with my Barry White voice." (38:17)
  • "In another universe, I don’t give a rat." (44:49) (on multiversal “other selves”)

• Paul Mercurio:

  • "Some people speculate there’s a black hole out there, but you see all the chaos around it—it’s like that coworker you never see but have to clean up after." (20:15)
  • "I really wish I'd spent a few cycles in the beginning learning to fold a fitted sheet...never learned it." (42:51)
  • "Is there any downside to a wormhole universe? Everyone who had a job driving..." (60:04)

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Humorous Highlights

• Analogies abound: black hole mergers as dysfunctional family Thanksgiving dinners; cosmic objects likened to “pregnant cosmic piñatas” and “cosmic tribbles”; gravity slingshots compared to riding a bike behind a jet engine; time dilation at work meetings (“feel like they’re near a black hole”).
• Repeated comic jabs about Neil’s self-promotion of his own books (“More pictures, buddy. More pictures.”) and Barry White–style audiobook narration (38:14).
• Paul's bit about “learning physics at a keg party” and cheating for grades (34:10, 36:42).
• Extended riff on folding fitted sheets through all possible universes, and Neil coaching Paul on how it’s done (42:51).
• Imagining wormholes as doors in your fridge straight to the grocery store (58:27).

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Timestamp (MM:SS) | |---------------------------------------------------------------------|----------------------| | Opening, black hole allure | 02:10 | | Are we living in a black hole? | 06:05 | | What’s beyond black holes? | 09:41 | | Can we confirm black hole theories (Hawking’s ideas)? | 15:53 | | Using planetary & black hole slingshots | 21:36 | | Time slows near black holes; spaghettification | 28:30 | | Science education tips for neurodiverse learners | 33:29 | | Multiverse and Nietzsche’s eternal recurrence | 40:52 | | Theory vs. law; what is scientific proof? | 47:46 | | Are black holes collapsed wormholes? | 53:14 | | Should humans devote energy to beating the Sun’s demise? | 55:49 | | Wormholes and speculative future tech (delivery, roads vanish) | 58:27 | | Episode wrap-up and sign-off | 60:21 |

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Final Thoughts

This episode balances expansive cosmic speculation with practical physics, all seasoned with Paul’s irreverent humor and Neil’s skill for clear, engaging explanations. Black holes serve as the dominant theme, but the show loops through slingshot physics, alternate universes, time perception, and the future of science learning—reminding listeners that the true “nesting doll” is the endless curiosity with which we explore the mysteries of the cosmos.

As Neil closes:
"Until next time—keep looking up." (61:17)

Transcript

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Paul. People love themselves from black hole.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah. And I think it's because it's sort of the unknown.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right. Because it can eat you.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And that gives you. That forces you to respect them.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, exactly.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There it is.

[Paul Mercurio]

It's like a street thing.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Coming up on StarTalk, Cosmic Queries.

Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the univers where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.

This is StarTalk. Neil DeGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. We're doing a cosmic queries grab bag today with Paul Mercurio.

[Paul Mercurio]

Paul, hi. Well, first, nice to see you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Welcome back.

[Paul Mercurio]

Thank you. We have to correct I am Baron Paul Mercurio.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Did that happen?

[Paul Mercurio]

United me and I. Oh, okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Thanks for reminding me.

[Paul Mercurio]

Where are the trumpets?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I just forgot. Baron. Baron Paul Mercurio. Thank you for that reminder.

[Paul Mercurio]

And the nice thing is you created problems at my house because now my wife and son have to call me.

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

That all the time.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I think I used my Excalibur to do that.

[Paul Mercurio]

You did. It was a big thing. And a lot of people responded online. On the wall there, one person said, maybe you should, whatever. But you didn't.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Thank God.

[Paul Mercurio]

No. It's great to see you. Great to be back.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right. And you got a podcast. Yeah. What's the name of that?

[Paul Mercurio]

Inside out with Paul Mercurial.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Inside Out. Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

I have fun. One on one interviews with folks.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

Paul McCartney and Colbert and I perform on that show.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, no, it's all good. Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, man.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And you perform on Colbert. Do you also write for him as well?

[Paul Mercurio]

No, just.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But you used to write for the Daily Show.

[Paul Mercurio]

I wrote for the Daily show, yeah. For a long time. Yep. And. And then touring with my stand up and my off Broadway show, directed by Frank Oz. Permission to speak.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And so love Frank O. Nobody doesn't love Frank Oz.

[Paul Mercurio]

He's like such a mensch. Yeah, he's so sweet. And he's Yoda. So it's very intimidating to work with the original Yoda because does he give.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Stage directions and Yoda speak?

[Paul Mercurio]

So wants him to go backwards when he orders, though. He orders backwards. Think I will have. I'm like, all right, we get it, Frank. You're Yoda.

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

Stop.

[Paul Mercurio]

We're in a diner. Okay, now he's the sweetest human being and so talented.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Really good. Yeah, we've actually had him on StarTalk. If you dig him up, he'll be in our archives somewhere.

[Paul Mercurio]

I didn't know you had him on long ago.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, we had everybody.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

He doesn't live far from here. We should go to his house.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Here is my office at the Hayden. Show up with the puppet at the Hayden Planetarium.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I went to reach for mini Neil.

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There we go.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

How's this going? The hand goes up the butt or something.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, you can move the. Oh, look at you, man.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

My mustache is coming off.

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

Yeah, you look.

[Paul Mercurio]

You look like a bandit of some kind that's gonna. In the 19th century. That's holding up a train.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Who are you talking to?

So, cosmic queries. Yeah, Grab bag.

[Paul Mercurio]

We got some fun ones.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes. You got them all right in front.

[Paul Mercurio]

Of you Got them all in front of me. All right, we jump in.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I haven't seen these. I might not know some of them. I mean, I don't know.

[Paul Mercurio]

So we good?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Yeah, go for it.

[Paul Mercurio]

All right, man.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right. If I don't know an answer, I'll just say I don't know, and we move on. No, no, no, stop.

[Paul Mercurio]

You know. Okay. Adam Schmidt. Hello, Dr. Tyson. Greetings from Adam in Atlanta. I loved your video. On the possibility our universe is inside a black hole.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So did a lot of people. That's weird.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay.

In our universe, we have detected dozens of black hole mergers. If we're inside a black hole, what would that event look like if our black hole merged with another black hole on our parent universe?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's very cool.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay. Why don't we. There's more to the question. You want to stop there and then I'll.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, no, go on. Go on, go.

[Paul Mercurio]

What would evidence of something like that in our past look like? Could our parent black hole's continued accretion of matter explain why we're continuing to expand?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I can't answer with precision all of those points, but I can say a couple of things. A black hole is black from the outside.

If you're on the inside, you see light coming in from. You see what's going on outside. It's all coming down to you. It's funneled to a very narrow field of view, but you see it coming.

[Paul Mercurio]

In to the point of singularity.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So you would see the other black hole collide with you. You should be able to see that.

[Paul Mercurio]

Would you see it or feel. It's like nesting dolls.

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

Right.

[Paul Mercurio]

In a way. In the sense that, like a black hole.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, once they're together, they become one.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right. And you lose track that there were once two of them. So you'll see it come in. The event horizons will merge into one larger event horizon, and all of its matter will join you in your black hole. And they would say the same thing about them because it's relative. Right. You'll join each other, have a common envelope, a common event horizon, and you'll see the matter collapsing down. If there's a singularity there, everybody's headed towards the singularity.

[Paul Mercurio]

But now there's a theory in that singularity.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, the singularities go to each other, right? Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

But there's a theory within the back hole that the singularity. It doesn't necessarily. It could mean that another universe is created. Yes, yes, from that. So it's sort of.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Not from it, just the black hole mathematics gives you an entire other Space time inside of it.

[Paul Mercurio]

So it's like this cosmic like family tree where we.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, you mean it's nesting. That's what you mean by the nesting dolls?

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right, right. Because the universe inside the universe inside the universe, and the universe is all the way down.

[Paul Mercurio]

And it's like one, we have just one unmarried single parent. It's like we're an illegitimate child.

And nobody remembers anybody's birthday. Like that's pretty much how the family functions, right?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I hadn't thought of that. There's the one starter universe, and the black holes within are universes within are universes within. So, yeah, that's a curious consideration. The.

The point of there being another space time in front of you is that as you pass into the black hole, time slows down for you relative to the rest of the universe, which means to you, the rest of the universe speeds up.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Looking out to the rest of the universe, you will see the entire future history of the universe unfold before your eyes.

[Paul Mercurio]

My understanding is also, if I'm looking at you as you approach the event horizon, it's looking like it's slowing down, Correct? It's not.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But I'm looking at you and you're speeding up. Correct?

[Paul Mercurio]

Right. But there's spaghettification happening.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, that only happens down near the singularity.

[Paul Mercurio]

Down the singularity.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I mean, it's funner to think that crossing the event horizon is where you get all torn up, right? No, no, it's just this region of space. You'll pass right through it like you didn't know or care that it was there. You'll realize once you're in, you can't get out. And depending on whether the black hole is spinning and how big it is, your path could go straight to the singularity. And that's all she wrote.

[Paul Mercurio]

But it's chaos within it because it's consuming its light and stars and gases. It's, it's inescapable. It's like every family Thanksgiving dinner in my house cannot get out. And it's complete chaos. And you have an annoying brother in law there. And you know who I'm talking about.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

They're not brother, they're uncles and aunts. Those are the crazy ones. Or the uncles and aunts. Yeah, so maybe. I mean, sure, there'd be a lot of different things there. A cacophony of cosmic objects.

[Paul Mercurio]

Let's go to Alex Mzibetta from Houston. What is beyond the black holes?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Explain what is beyond the black hole?

[Paul Mercurio]

Dunkin Donut franchises everywhere. They're Everywhere.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, like we just discussed, there's. There's a singularity down in the middle. But to the extent that you can avoid the singularity, which is not clear, if you can, let's say I have rotating black holes where what's going on inside is a little different. But like I said, there's an entire universe opening up inside of it. So there's something. There's a colleague of mine who considered the natural selection of universes, and he said that we are most likely to live in a universe where the laws of physics favor the creation of black.

[Paul Mercurio]

Holes through massive stars by whatever mechanism. Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Because.

That universe that has black holes, each of those black holes is a universe within. And if those laws of physics make universes within that. So which universe are we most likely to be in? The universe where there's a lot of black holes? Because we would be in one of those black holes.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

If there's a universe that doesn't make any black holes, we'd have to be in that universe native. Right. With that. Because it's not making any other universes with its black holes.

[Paul Mercurio]

It's sort of like a pregnant cosmic pinata where you break it and then many universes come from that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's obscure, but. Okay, how about. I got a better one. How about cosmic tribbles?

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, there you go.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You know tribbles.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, yeah. Star Trek.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember what the secret was about them?

[Paul Mercurio]

I don't.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

They're born pregnant.

[Paul Mercurio]

Wow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes. I got a tribble right here. This is a tribble.

[Paul Mercurio]

Look at that. Look at that. And the tribble is pregnant when it's born.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. It is so fertile. They're born pregnant. Right. So. So a universe that natively makes black holes, it's gonna make other universes. Easy, easy.

[Paul Mercurio]

But is there anything that can sort of. Where is science in terms of being able to confirm any of that at this point?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Are you speaking to me right now? Because I'm just.

[Paul Mercurio]

You're really loving that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Have you seen the episode Everyone just stand there and squeeze them.

[Paul Mercurio]

I know. And there's a lot of them.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There's a lot of them. And they make a little sound like.

[Paul Mercurio]

Was it water that killed them or something?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, no. What happened was they were eating the grain of the ship. Oh. And that they were delivering food to some location and then they were dying. And it turned out the grain was poisoned by some evil.

[Paul Mercurio]

No, it just proves that carbs are bad for you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Is that what it is?

[Paul Mercurio]

You don't eat too much. You don't want to eat too much bread, people. That's the theory behind.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

If I remember the storyline, I think that was it.

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

Yeah.

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[Paul Mercurio]

I'm Nicholas Costella and I'm a proud.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Supporter of StarTalk on Patreon. This is StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

[Paul Mercurio]

All right, so we're going to move on to our next question, which is really terrific question from Henik Tedesi and he is from Ethiopia. Thanks for truly making the sublime and fascinating part of everyday discussions. Here's my question. How is Stephen Hawking's theory about the accretion disk around black holes proven? How does one go about proving theories about something so far away and not directly observable? And what current theory or study of black holes excites you?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I love it. Okay, so first.

I think he's referring to Hawking radiation, because otherwise the accretion disk, that's a whole other thing. Black holes can have accretion disks, but Stephen Hawking wasn't there. He cares about black holes evaporating by creating particles out of the gravitational field that surrounds the black hole. So I'm a black hole and I have this gravitational field. It's an intense gravitational field. And occasionally my field will create a particle antiparticle pair and they'll fly apart and one typically falls back in to the black hole and the other escapes. Well, if this keeps up, what's the future of this? You run the math and the particles inside the black hole or what are escaping by this mechanism out of the gravitational field. The gravitational field has a built in inventory of what particles were absorbed by the black hole to begin with had fallen into the black hole. The question was, do you lose all the information about particles falling in? No, it's retained. Apparently the Hawking radiation recovers all that fell into the black hole. It recovers it. And so the black hole gets smaller and smaller and smaller without ever having to reach in through the event horizon. That's what's amazing here. Stuff is coming out of the black hole because it's birthed outside of the black hole. Right? So now watch. So how do we know this is happening? We don't. Quantum physics is the most successful theory of physics there has ever been. We have yet to see any edges where it begins to fail us. Newton's laws fail us at high speeds and high gravity. We needed Einstein to come in.

To cut that some slack. Okay, well how about that was a limit of Newton's theories. How about Einstein's? There's a limit to Einstein's. What happens in the center of a black hole. What happens at the singularity of the Big Bang, Einstein's equations fail there. It's sometimes described. It's where God is dividing by zero. Remember, you're not supposed to divide by zero in your math class. You try doing that on your calculator. It just doesn't like you. No, it's like, you idiot, go back and take some math.

[Paul Mercurio]

Catches fire in your hand.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So the thing with quantum physics is it is so effective and so potent that if you discover an effect in quantum physics just by manipulating the tenets of quantum physics and the equations, that prediction. We take that as gospel because quantum.

[Paul Mercurio]

Physics has yet to fail us.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Correct.

[Paul Mercurio]

That's why we all believe that doesn't mean it's infallible.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Correct. But that's why we all are on board with Hawking radiation. We're all on board with it.

[Paul Mercurio]

And the part of his question all of us about. Well, I'm, you know. Speak for yourself, buddy.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Except for you.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah. Mr. Tribble, how do you prove theories about something so far away? Goes to the way that, you know, sort of. That. The photo from 2019 of the Black hole. They look at stars orbiting invisible masses. They caught heat and X rays from mass.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's how you know the black hole is there. How big it is and what it does to its environment.

[Paul Mercurio]

Gravity, ligo. And for gravitational waves, all of that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So these are observ. You don't have to be there. You just need a telescope. That's what makes telescopes useful. How do I know you were home? Because I looked in your window with my telescope. Okay, Right.

[Paul Mercurio]

But it's sort of like, you know, there's a. You speculate there's a black hole out there, but you can't see it. But you see all of sort of the chaos around it. It's like that co worker you never see leaves a mess everywhere. They do. And you gotta clean up after that coworker.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There's always somebody that needs cleaning up.

[Paul Mercurio]

After, you know what I'm saying?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right, right. They break.

[Paul Mercurio]

The stars are orbiting something you can't even see. It's like a dog chasing an emotional tennis ball. Right. Just in a circle.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, I hadn't thought of that.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, well, that's why I'm here.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

An emotional tennis ball.

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Paul Mercurio]

You're going to be thinking about that later.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I don't want to think about it. So the environment of a black hole we understand pretty well enough to look for what it predicts.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

In fact, the first X ray telescopes were targeting objects that we thought, could there be A black hole. Here is this signature of a black hole. You do the math. A black hole with an accretion disk, as was mentioned here, would radiate X rays. Let's look for X rays.

[Paul Mercurio]

And those X rays showed. Because you get something back from black holes through X rays.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And it wasn't the black hole that emitted it, it was the material around it.

[Paul Mercurio]

Around it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Correct.

[Paul Mercurio]

But it told you because that X ray basically said that's like the black hole chewing with its mouth open. Right. Look, I'm eating. You can. Yeah, in a way, I think that's a.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Correct. That's accurate.

[Paul Mercurio]

You know, I mean, that's, that's the scientist talking right now. All right, we're going to move on, elite.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right.

[Paul Mercurio]

Greetings, Dr. Tyson. My name is Caleb Ferguson from Lebanon, Virginia. In the movie the Martian, there is a maneuver called slingshot which use the gravity assistance of Earth to help accelerate a ship back towards Mars. My question is, is this technique used in real life? And if so, do you think it would be possible to attempt this maneuver using a black hole?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So, first of all, a slingshot is used in 100% of our missions to the outer planets.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right. Voyager 1 and 2, Cassini, Juno, 100% of them. Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Cassini, Voyager 1 and 2, Pioneer 1 and 2. Sorry, Pioneer 10 and 11. There's no other way we want to get to the outer solar system. The value is you get extra bang for your buck. I don't need to have rocket fuel. Get me that speed. I can come up behind a planet, fall towards the planet while it's in orbit, and come out the other side. And having gained energy because the gravity.

[Paul Mercurio]

Of that planet is pulling it in and shooting at it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, if it's just pure gravity, it's symmetric. It's a subtle point that most people don't get. So if you just have the planet there, you'll fall in and it'll accelerate you. And how about on the other side? You try to get out, but it'll pull back on you. That entire scenario is precisely symmetric. You don't gain anything if you're just falling into the planet and trying to climb back out of the planet, it's symmetric. It accelerates you at just the rate that it slows you down on the other side. The reason why a slingshot works is the planet is in orbit around the sun. And as you approach the planet, yes, the gravity will pull you in, but the gravity is pulling you into a moving planet.

[Paul Mercurio]

So that's pulling you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

So it's like.

[Paul Mercurio]

Sort of like having two horses.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Exactly. So one is just the pure gravity, but that's gonna cancel out on the other side. But that's bringing you into the reference frame of the planet itself. And that extra energy gets boosted to you. And now you can get farther, faster in the solar system without having a rocket that was big enough to have to do that. Okay, so slingshots are. Everyone uses a slingshot.

[Paul Mercurio]

So part of his question is about black hole. Using a. That, to me, is like trying to get, you know, energy for a bike by riding behind the jet engine. Like it seems like you're gonna be.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Actually, I tried. Let me. Remind me to tell you something about when I was drafting off a truck, which I don't recommend anyone do.

[Paul Mercurio]

Were you on a skateboard?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, I was in a car. But I'll tell you about it in a minute. So it has nothing to do with the gravity of the object. So a black hole would only be useful to you, is if the black hole is moving in the direction that you want to be moving when you come out the other side.

[Paul Mercurio]

Because again, just like the planet, it's not enough to just have the gravity.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Pulling, because the gravity's symmetrical. It'll eat you on the other side.

[Paul Mercurio]

So. But when we're slingshotting, it's almost. It's like you're sort of borrowing energy from a planet.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You're not borrowing.

[Paul Mercurio]

You ain't giving it back, and you're not reimbursing. And through Venmo, you're just screwing the thing.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It would be cool if you could. So, rockets, You've just stolen orbital energy from the planet. And we proceed on the assumption that the planet doesn't mind.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah. They're like teenagers, these rockets. They never have enough energy. They're always asking their parents for boosts. They're a mess.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And we got to help them out wherever we find them.

[Paul Mercurio]

They flirt with the planets. They go up to the planet, they get cute.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right, Right.

[Paul Mercurio]

They get close to it, and then next thing you know, gone. Never see them again.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Onto the outer.

[Paul Mercurio]

I'm sorry. I'm personalizing a lot of this. I've had a lot.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

I don't know.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Have you been in therapy about this?

[Paul Mercurio]

Tell me about this car drafting.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, no, no. So I forgot which car ago of mine this was, but it was the first time I was able to. It was able to tell me what my miles per gallon was.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, it had this little.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's an active miles per gallon.

[Paul Mercurio]

Probably one of the first computerized Cars.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Maybe it was in there. And so I noticed that when I floored the accelerator, miles per gallon dropped to like three miles a gallon or something. Then when I was cruising, it went back up, gently pressing the. You know, so it was pretty much consistent with the sticker information about the miles per gallon that I was getting. All right. So I said, I wonder what would happen if I drafted behind a truck. Right? Big old 18 wheeler truck. So I'm on a high on the freeway and I start pulling up behind the truck and I start seeing the mileage go up, the gas mileage, the miles per gallon go up.

[Paul Mercurio]

I thought you were going to say you got mesmerized by the mud flaps with the cute girl on.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So it went from 20 miles per gallon to 30 to 40. Then I got within maybe 15ft. Very dangerous. I don't recommend anybody doing 50ft of a truck going 60 miles an hour.

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

And a guy who does this for a living is like, why this? And why is this annoying guy behind me? You're lucky he didn't hit on the brake.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I got within about 20ft and it went to 99 miles per gallon and didn't go higher than that. So basically went to infinity on the. So I was completely enclosed and I just wanted to say drafting the draft air of the truck and just for.

[Paul Mercurio]

The startalk fans out there. Whenever I go on a car trip with Neil, it's really annoying because he'll only draft behind trucks because he's too cheap for gas. So it's really frightening holding on. It's brutal. And it. And then. And then he saved money.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Last time I take you on a.

[Paul Mercurio]

Trip, he saved money. Still not buying you a hamburger at the McDonald's. When you stop, you're on your own. All right. The guy's working it both ways. That's what I'm saying. Okay. This was a very good question. These are great questions.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

One thing that most people.

[Paul Mercurio]

I think, I'm sorry, we're done. You can't talk about drafting.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I am creating a more laminar flow of air behind the truck than it otherwise would.

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, because there's a vacuum there.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Correct. And I am.

[Paul Mercurio]

You don't have anything pushing against.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Correct. But I am making the air behind the truck come off the truck more smoothly, which means when I'm drafting off the truck, the truck's gas mileage is improving as well.

[Paul Mercurio]

But why would what's happening in the back of the truck affect the gas? Because is it pushing down and then pushing back?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There's no longer a partial vacuum behind the truck because I'm inside that pocket.

[Paul Mercurio]

But why does a partial vacuum hurt?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's sucking against the truck, is trying to pull against what would otherwise be a lower pressure air.

[Paul Mercurio]

But now you've got a vacuum behind your car.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, it depends on how the air flows.

[Paul Mercurio]

Don't disagree with me. Just say you're right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, it wouldn't have to be a vacuum. If the air comes smoothly. Vacuum is when it's turbulent. And again, okay, it's in the watch. So on bike races where people draft off of others, people say, get off my back, I don't want to tow you. They're not towing them. You actually would ride faster if someone is drafting off you.

[Paul Mercurio]

But it's theirs.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But the person that's drafting off you is using even less energy than you.

[Paul Mercurio]

MX Self Destruct Aloha. Dr. Tyson Sammas from Los Angeles. Dr. Tyson, I've heard you describe the process of spaghettification before, and there are lots of theories about what one would see as they fall into a black hole. However, we know that as gravity increases, an observer's perception of time slows down. Since the gravity of an event horizon is infinite, wouldn't this mean that time would effectively stop for anything falling in and so nothing ever actually crosses into the black hole itself? If you could maintain molecular cohesion, wouldn't you just see it evaporate away as you get closer until it's eventually gone?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Back in the early 70s, when black holes were finally making their way into our mathematics and our ideas and understandings of the universe.

The science writer for the New York Times wrote a book titled Frozen Star, and he was referring to black holes. His name was Walter Sullivan, and I read a lot of his work. I mean, I appreciated people writing for the public when I'm there as a middle schooler learning about science. And so he, among others, were early influences in my life. I would clip articles he wrote in the New York Times on the latest discoveries. Anyhow, Frozen Star, referencing the fact that if you watch someone fall into a black hole, they move slower and slower and slower. And right before the event horizon, everything stops. So it's frozen.

[Paul Mercurio]

That person is frozen.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Anything is frozen. Except it's not. But that's what was considered at the time. I would learn from Jana, Jana Levin, sitting in that chair, that as you come closer and closer to the black hole, what happens is the event horizon encloses you.

There's some phenomena that happens where you're not actually passing through it. You are joining the event Horizon as you get absorbed.

[Paul Mercurio]

So if the black hole.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So you actually do pass through.

[Paul Mercurio]

They were a trampoline with a giant. And I'm being serious, ball. That creates sort of the effect of a black hole. And you're approaching the edge of that trampoline.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Why is it a trampoline? It's a rubber sheet that's curved.

[Paul Mercurio]

Listen, it's my analogy. I get to do what I want.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Black hole's not bouncing back.

[Paul Mercurio]

No. And so when you have. So you're approaching that event horizon from the viewer, from the person looking from the outside observer, you're frozen. That person looks like.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

As was understood in the early 70s, but you get absorbed into the event horizon itself. Then you pass through without incident.

[Paul Mercurio]

But that's. Where does spaghettification come in?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's en route to the singularity.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right. So your feet are getting pulled and.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You'Re getting shot en route to the singularity. At big black holes, there's not much tidal forces crossing the event horizon. You just fall right through and you'll be fine. It's as you start approaching the singularity, deep in the center of the black hole, where these effects become significant.

[Paul Mercurio]

And there is this sort of chaos that's happening within the black hole at all times.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, it's eating things voraciously, anything that comes near. So I don't know what the inside of a black hole looks like.

[Paul Mercurio]

I think you should get on that. Less time drafting behind trucks, more time doing some work. You know what I'm saying, buddy? So, in a sense, the black hole is sort of this. Sort of like time slows down, right?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

In the vicinity of the black hole.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yes. Right. And so, as seen by an observer.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

From outside, a very famous scene in the movie Interstellar, where the people are on the black hole planet for 15 minutes and the guy ages 15 years, or some crazy ratio of time evolving for the two of them. You come back, he's got gray hair. I wouldn't have waited that long.

[Paul Mercurio]

So as gravity increases, time slows down.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

Which is why, I guess, a lot of work meetings feel like they're right next to a black hole.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But you don't know time is slowing down for you.

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, when you're on a plane, the clock is going a little faster than on Earth. Right. Doesn't speed up a little bit?

Well.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Not significantly. It does it for GPS satellites, right? Yeah, GPS satellites. In fact, it's not slowing down, it's speeding up because we are in a higher gravity field than the GPS satellites. So their time ticks faster than ours.

[Paul Mercurio]

Because the gravity is a little weaker.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Weaker there than here. Right, right, right. So the GPS satellites pre correct the time they give you by saying, we're ahead of you. I'm gonna subtract that. Then I'm gonna give all your cell phone towers the correct time. What's funny is we know and understand that phenomenon because of Einstein's general theory of relativity. If his theory of relativity did not exist, we would be measuring that phenomenon and not know why it was happening.

[Paul Mercurio]

But just accepting it because it's real. Yeah, yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There's a lot we measure and don't.

[Paul Mercurio]

Understand, but quantum physics couldn't explain it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Not that. No. It's relativity entirely.

[Paul Mercurio]

Dr. Neil Tyson, this is Roger Gamblin. Roger, coming at you from Eugene, Oregon. Eugene, my question regards Dr. Tyson's true specialty, science education and the public understanding of science in particular when it comes to people with neurological disabilities. I have adhd, so it's difficult to sit down and read something with consistent focus. For example, I only got about a third of the way through Astrophysics for People in a Hurry, and I'm with you. My question is, what's the best way to learn undergrad level physics without using the book? Let me take this one. I have the answer. It's called a keg party. You will see at a keg party, so many laws of physics being defied and more as the keg slowly gets consumed. Go ahead, you can answer now.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right. Astrophysics for People in a Hurry. That's a relatively short book. And if you only got a third of the way through, here's what I would recommend. Because I have another book called Letters from an Astrophysicist where my correspondence with people back when my email was public and I had these conversations with people.

[Paul Mercurio]

It's amazing to me that you had.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

A public email in the day. In the day. And there's some interesting other people on the other side of that. Some person in San Quentin prison writing, you know, there's a.

[Paul Mercurio]

How do I get out?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

He didn't ask that.

[Paul Mercurio]

If I use a file, will it really work?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

He didn't ask that.

[Paul Mercurio]

Will a file rust in a cake.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Or will it rust in a hot dog? Yeah, yeah, right. That book can be read in pieces because each letter exchange is just so you can start it, stop it whenever you want. So the attention Spanish for the reading the letter and the reply are.

Resonant with someone who might have adhd. In addition, what just got published is the sequel to Merlin, Merlin. I had a pen name For Merlin for years, where I answered questions from the public, brought it back into the 21st century. The second volume of that just got published. It's Questions and Answers about the Universe.

[Paul Mercurio]

And they're short. Brief.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

They're short and brief. Some are really short.

[Paul Mercurio]

So it's like. And I'm not trying to be a short story form book to answer questions about physics.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

In a way, it's shorter than short stories even. Right. Short story might be 100 pages.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right, right, right, right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So. So I recommend the Merlin books. There's two of them. One came out last year and one came out this year. That has more physics in it than the Letters from an Astrophysicist does. That one is people that have existential angst and want to know. I grew up in a Christian family, and then I saw Cosmos, and then now I'm rejected. What should I do? I'm in prison for this and I accept my thing. But my kids are in school. What should I do? So there's a lot of existential inquiries in the Letters from an Astrophysicist book, but the Merlin books will be right up his alley. And there's a lot of physics in there.

[Paul Mercurio]

Roger. Do that also. Cheat off your neighbor's test. Stop. I'm just saying. Especially after a keg party.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Here's the problem.

[Paul Mercurio]

You're gonna have a headache.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Here's the problem. School systems value grades more than students value learning.

[Paul Mercurio]

Wow, you just blew my mind.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

This is why people cheat. Think about it. There's no other reason to cheat other than to impress the school with your high grade.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right?

[Paul Mercurio]

Because you want to achieve and you want to get ahead.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, you want to get a high grade.

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, that's what I mean. You want to get ahead.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So you said you want to achieve. The achievement is the knowing of the information without regard to the grade.

[Paul Mercurio]

Listen, buddy, I've cheated my whole life. Don't tell me why I cheat and why I don't cheat.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm telling you.

[Paul Mercurio]

Neil, I gotta be honest with you. I'm really tired of hearing about your books.

Look, I love you. I've known you a long time. More pictures.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Go collect your paycheck and leave.

[Paul Mercurio]

More pictures, buddy. More pictures.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

More pictures. Okay. By the way, my Pluto book had a lot of pictures in it.

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Did it? Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

After the previous two books, I didn't buy it. I'm like, I can't do this again.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay? No. So if you are somehow have an aversion to what I've created, which was in direct response to what I thought the public needed. Let me just say.

[Paul Mercurio]

Let me back up. Did anybody write to you and say, we need you to write these books?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, but I felt it.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay?

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

Yoda.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Felt it. I did.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yoda with a mustache.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So if you're not a good reader, maybe you're a good listener. Those two Merlin books. Yeah, I narrated them.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, my God. I think that might be worse.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Welcome to the universe. What do you mean, worse?

And because it's Q and A with.

[Paul Mercurio]

For me to listen to your book, you talking like that, I would have to turn all the lights off and get a bottle of wine and light candles, and my wife would be like, why are you listening to Neil Tyson with candles and wine? Are you having an affair? I'm like, no, but he's talking like Barry White.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Barry White. Yeah, baby. Welcome to the universe.

So it includes other people reading the questions, because those are other people from the public. There's a kid in there. We got a kid voice. We got an old person voice. So if you have ADHD with regard to reading, maybe it affects you differently with regard to listening.

And other resources online.

Gotta love the Khan Academy. Very carefully conceived lessons. K, A H N. Khan Academy.

[Paul Mercurio]

Kong, Star Trek. Come on. You get to do a Star Trek reference. And I respond, you look at me like I'm crazy.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I reference tribbles.

This is the most famous thing in the series, and you're talking about one movie.

[Paul Mercurio]

You gotta look up at the sky.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Ricardo Montalban.

[Paul Mercurio]

Exactly. How did he keep working? God bless him. He was so you. So to wrap up, you were saying, there are all of these. I'm not really paying attention. I have adhd.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So the Khan Academy are educational units online that hand hold you as necessary, or not if you don't need it. Hand hold you through lessons on almost everything you would ever find in a college curriculum, including physics.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay, so there.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And I've seen it. And in fact, my family donates to them. So. Because I care about democratizing education. Just because you went to a fancy school, I don't need to hear that. I want everybody to know what you know.

[Paul Mercurio]

Great. I hope that helped, Roger. So we've got books. We've got audio books.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Neil's books.

[Paul Mercurio]

Neil's books. Nobody else's books.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Nobody else's books.

[Paul Mercurio]

If you have any other books, Roger, burn them right now. Burn them.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's not what I said.

[Paul Mercurio]

And audiobooks. And then, you know, we would definitely recommend the ones with Neil's sexy voice. All right, we're moving on.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Thank you, Paul.

[Paul Mercurio]

Anytime.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Anytime, Anytime. Oh, yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

All right. William Dusenberry, Nietzsche's eternal recurrence. Everything that's happening now in the cosmos has happened before and will happen again ad infinitum, forever and ever, including black holes. What are the odds of it ever even happening once?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So I don't know. Did Nietzsche talk like that? Did he have this?

[Paul Mercurio]

Is it Nietzsche? Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's not my favorite quote of Nietzsche's, although attributed to him. I don't know if he actually said this, but it's. Those who were dancing were deemed insane by those who could not hear their music.

[Paul Mercurio]

Mm. I said, yeah, that's a very deep.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That works.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, man.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You look through a glass window and people just jumping up and down and you don't hear the music. It's like, wow, what's wrong with those people?

[Paul Mercurio]

I just. I mean, I'm looking at it at a funny farm right now.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Funny farm. Right, right, right, right. So that's my favorite quote of his attributed to him.

[Paul Mercurio]

This sounds like some cosmic. Cosmic.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

In the multiverse. I spoke with Brian Cox about this, actually. Or was it Brian Cox or Brian Greene? Come by Brian's cross pollinated one of them. They're my physicists at large, and I reach for them when I need extra physics to back up my astrophysics.

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

Got it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So I didn't know Nietzsche had anything to do with the multiverse. But in the multiverse, we are just one of an infinite number of universes being born at all times. And apparently that infinity is large enough to include all possible configurations of atoms and molecules. So that we would be having this conversation in another universe. Yes. Or there's a version where you're evil and you have a goatee.

[Paul Mercurio]

It's right there sitting next to you. It's your evil puppet. Well, so it's like if everything's happening over and over again. Man, I really wish I'd spent a few cycles, the beginning cycles, learning how to fold a fitted sheet, because it is brutal. I never learned it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, the fitted sheets. Yeah. You have to tuck one corner into the other.

[Paul Mercurio]

Is that what you do?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes, yes. You have to reverse it, Tuck it under, and that way all the corners will stay together.

[Paul Mercurio]

Were you a boy scout?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, I'm just cultured.

[Paul Mercurio]

I don't know. Okay, look, if you want to repeat the idea of repeating life infinitely ad.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Infinitum, they just say you're there each time.

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, it sounds like a good idea. No, no, no.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's a different Paul Mercurio.

[Paul Mercurio]

No, I understand, but it's not you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You are here now.

[Paul Mercurio]

There's a version of me that's still on hold with Comcast and that's. I don't want that. I don't want that living on ad infinitum.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's not happening to you right now. That's not you.

[Paul Mercurio]

How do we know that, though? How do you know that there's not some part of me that's that person?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Because we've already done the experiment.

[Paul Mercurio]

What are you doing in your basement that we don't know about with human beings?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We have twins.

Identical in every way.

[Paul Mercurio]

My father was an identical twin in every way.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And they're not feeling the pain of the other one. They're not having the same thoughts. They're different people, but they're identical. So go to another universe and you're identical there and it's not you, period.

[Paul Mercurio]

I don't think you could be physically identical and not mentally or emotionally similar in some way. I don't think it sort of gets parceled out that way. My father was an identical twin. Looked alike, aged the same way. Identical in every way. Same cadence. I can't believe that a physical body can replicate and then in the future, that body. You're telling me that person becomes the twin of that person somehow, emotionally or mentally. There isn't still some DNA of that person.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It would be identical DNA. But you're not the same person.

I have the one and only Paul Mercurio. That matters to me in this moment. If you are.

If you are in any other universe, I don't give a rat.

[Paul Mercurio]

I can't go. I gotta compose myself.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You're beklempt. So if you're in another universe, I don't care.

[Paul Mercurio]

Look at me. I love you too. Take it in. Take it in.

All right. I think I get that now.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. And your father's twin was somebody else. They weren't the same person.

[Paul Mercurio]

I was utterly fascinated because he was like the Elvis version of my father. I'm not kidding. He wore a diamond pinky ring. He drove El Dorado Cadillacs. It was. Yeah. He was my.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The twin.

[Paul Mercurio]

The twin. My father stayed in Rhode Island. He moved to California and he became like the whole nine yards. So it was like someone sent my father into central casting and came out and. But I don't want to take up too much time.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

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[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's the season to come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. Warm up with a creamy caramel brulee latte, get festive with an iced gingerbread chai, or share a velvety peppermint mocha. Together is the best place to be at Starbucks.

[Paul Mercurio]

All right, Vince T. Greetings, Dr. Tyson Vincent from Cincinnati with a question. It's a good town in Cincinnati. They have a nice comedy club there. Do you consider atomic fission to be a natural phenomenon? And if so, why is Einstein's theory still a theory and not a law? Isn't the detonation of a bomb's proof of theory?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We don't use the word law anymore. We don't really.

It's a little outdated in the following way. You go back to the 19th century and earlier we were discovering how the universe worked. We had Newton's laws of optics and laws of gravity and thermodynamics, a whole branch of physics that studies heat. And we had electrodynamics that would be later. All of this.

We call them laws because they applied everywhere. Laws here and there. Right then we found the limits to those laws.

[Paul Mercurio]

But why does not that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, if it's a limit, can it be a law? Should we call it law? If it has limits, there's not a law.

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, who said law presupposes that something is absolute?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's the Assumption. If you say that to somebody in science. No, no, no. Well, back to this. What it was, what it was presumed to be. Then we learn that these ideas have limits. They still applied in the regimes where they had ever been tested, but they had limits. So we no longer call them laws. It's just a theory of relativity. We have quantum theory. We have. So they're all called theories. And a theory is the organizational understanding of how nature works represented by a mathematical imprint of what's going on. And so it's not. We're waiting for the theory to become a law. That's not how this works anymore. That's not how we think about it anymore. So the theory of relativity, it works every place we've ever tested, and it has limits at the singularity. We have quantum theory. It's worked every place we've ever tested it. We don't know where to test it, where it doesn't work yet.

[Paul Mercurio]

But you can't call it a law.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We're not calling them laws anymore. Just not using the term.

[Paul Mercurio]

Maybe I am.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So nuclear fission, it's not a thing in the universe because using large atoms and breaking them apart, there aren't many large atoms in the universe, but we can make them here on Earth and we can find them and purify them. And so, yeah, fission is real. All of that, it's all real, but it's still the theory of relativity and quantum theory, and it'll always be that. So when you have people saying we should teach creation in the school because evolution is just a theory.

That sentence in modern times has no meaning. There's no such thing as just a theory. And even there's some scientists that don't fully recognize this distinction.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay, between theory and law, but no.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Between theory and hypothesis. Okay? People say, I have a theory that if I do this, then that will happen. No, you have a hypothesis that that will happen. You're going to test your hypothesis and.

[Paul Mercurio]

Then it becomes a theory.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

If it's only if.

Only if there's that and a hundred other things that come together in a deeper understanding of the world. And if it's all shown to be correct, you have a new theory of the universe.

[Paul Mercurio]

Got it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So it's a subtle but a very important point. There's no such thing as. It's just a theory. And anytime I hear someone say, I have a theory that I say, no, Einstein had a theory. You have a hypothesis.

[Paul Mercurio]

I'm shocked that scientists, bright scientists, brilliant science, can't make that distinction.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, no. Because it's a pedagogical point because people want to think one thing and the scientists are just doing what they do and they don't know how. The public is mistaking what they're doing. So they don't have. They're not thinking about how to correct for that. But I think about it all the time. Plus, there's no such thing as proof. Prove it. That's not a thing in science. It's give me enough evidence to support what you say so that I no longer need to question it and I go on to the next question.

[Paul Mercurio]

But you're always open to it being disproved. If something comes along, don't use the word prove.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We're open to shown to be wrong. If there's better evidence, that comes later. However, wrong theory, multiple, multiple experiments getting the same answer, then you've got, you're good to go here. And it becomes part of what is objectively true about the world. That's so Newton's laws. We went to the moon on Newton's laws because going to the moon didn't test the edges of Newton's laws. But you want to play with black holes, you want to build a black hole detector. You need Einstein to get that to work. It's still Einstein's theory of relativity. Now we could call them Newton's theories.

[Paul Mercurio]

But those laws won't work in black hole.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

With regard to black hole, they won't. But what I'm saying is we went centuries calling them laws and so we just still call them laws.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah. Okay, let's move on. That was a great question, by the way. Raqa Darkota. Good day, Dr. Tyson. Chris here from the land down under, Australia. Been listening for a couple of months now while I work. Wait, okay, first of all, I hope you're not an air traffic controller. Okay? I don't want to be like, yeah, American Airlines land wherever. I'm trying to figure out this.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I got Neil on the line here.

[Paul Mercurio]

I'm trying to figure out this event horizon stuff and drafting behind trucks like some crazy man. Dr. Tyson, do you think it's possible that black holes are actually the ancient remains of collapsed wormholes? Kind of like the dead moths of cosmic tunnels that once connected different parts of space time? Could what we call black holes today be fossils from an earlier, more interconnected universe?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I love it. So wormholes we know are not stable. They have to be actively propped up with some material that does not exist yet that has negative gravity because gravity makes space collapse.

Negative gravity would make space expand, would make space separate and so if you want to build a black hole, we know how to make one. We just don't have the substance that will allow it. So you can't just imagine a universe that had these highways called black holes that all collapse because somebody had to have made them. Somebody had to make them.

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, there's quantum gravity and there's string theory. Right. And they suggest that wormholes and black holes might be the two sides of the same sort of geometry.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, it would be white holes and black holes possibly connected with a wormhole. Yeah, but we've never seen a white hole, so it works.

[Paul Mercurio]

Maybe you ought to look a little harder. Yeah, just try.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It works arithmetically and we make a prediction of what it should look like in space, and we've never seen one. So it's a mathematical curiosity.

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, is the black hole a one ended wormhole then? In some way, because some have suggested that. Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

When I think of wormholes, I want to step through and land somewhere else and be able to step back through. And black holes don't give you that option. They don't give you the two way street option.

[Paul Mercurio]

They're very one dimensional. Emotionally, they're a mess.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But what's cool, it's a hole that you can fall in from any direction.

[Paul Mercurio]

A wormhole.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No. Well, yes, but also a black hole from any direction you can fall in.

[Paul Mercurio]

But that's true.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, it's not. If there's a hole in the ground, you can only fall straight through. You step over it and then.

[Paul Mercurio]

So is that gravity causing that or. It's in relation.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's a hole in space time. So no matter the direction, there is.

[Paul Mercurio]

No top or bottom.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Correct, there's no top or bottom. You come in from the left, the right, the top to bottom.

[Paul Mercurio]

There's like a top sheet to bottom sheet, but that's a whole other thing. All right, Margo Lane. That sounds like a superhero's girlfriend. Margo Lane.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Margo Lane.

[Paul Mercurio]

Greetings, Neil from Elk, California. Given that the sun will eventually consume us. Wow. Shouldn't all of our energy every day started out dark?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Woo.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, my God.

Margo, you're not getting invited to any of my parties. What's up, everybody? Margo's here.

Given that the sun will eventually consume us, shouldn't all of our energy everywhere be focused on trying to stay alive? The speculation is 5 billion years will be consumed by the sun.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

How.

How optimistic she is.

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, this isn't very for me. The sun is consuming us. Why am I uploading new emojis to my Phone on Apple. Why do I care about any of that stuff?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Because it's in 5 billion years still, people.

[Paul Mercurio]

Half the people won't use sunscreen and they know they're going to get burned alive.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Burned alive. Actually, the sun in that future will be very red and will not be emitting much ultraviolet. So it's not how bright the sun is.

[Paul Mercurio]

The sun will be, but it's how.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Much ultraviolet light it's giving.

[Paul Mercurio]

Because it's going to be burning out as a star.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, just the surface will be cooling. The surface will get cooler, but it'll get so big. Like the surface of the sun will be very close to. To Earth. So the oceans will come to a rapid boil and then evaporate, and the atmosphere will evaporate and we'll be this charred ember orbiting within the confines of the sun.

[Paul Mercurio]

Can I just say something right now? I want to kill myself.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, it's five billion years. What I'm saying, I came here happy. What I'm saying is 5 billion years, that's long enough that we will surely go extinct for 22 other reasons. Well, before then.

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

TikTok filters.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That should be less.

[Paul Mercurio]

We're going to die and people are worried about TikTok filters?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Eventually. But there are other things. For example, an asteroid could strike. There could be a killer virus. There could be.

[Paul Mercurio]

All right, I'm done. I'm leaving. I'm getting out of here.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There could be a plague. Yeah, plague, like a killer virus. Same thing. There could be. What else can you tell us? Oh, we could just go extinct because climate change and we can't adapt to it. Okay, you know what? The average life expectancy of a mammal species, about 3 million years on average. So if we beat that average, good. But if not, we don't have to worry about the sun dying.

[Paul Mercurio]

Do you think in 5 billion years there'll be Amazon prime deals? You know, we have three years.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, because maybe we'll have wormholes and you won't need delivery services.

[Paul Mercurio]

There you go.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, I fantasize about. I think about this all the time.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, but they're still gonna get it wrong and leave it in the wrong house.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, no, because that's not where it's happening. Open your refrigerator. In the back of your refrigerator is a door to the grocer. That's the wormhole from the grocer to your refrigerator.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Wow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So the Amazon delivery is like the Amazon warehouse, and then they pop a.

[Paul Mercurio]

Door open back up in the grocer. You open the door. Is he Sleeping with my wife?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, no, no. There's a way to unlock it so that they can't just come through completely through the hole.

[Paul Mercurio]

I have marital issues, but go ahead.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay. So they'll swap out the milk and the eggs, the cheese, whatever is the thing that's going bad. And so that would be the future of wormholes. And so, yeah, I love them. I can't wait.

[Paul Mercurio]

You think we'll.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You wouldn't need roads.

[Paul Mercurio]

You just. What's transporting me through a wormhole?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It is the don't I warp in the fabric of space and time. You burrow a hole through and you just step through and then you unwarp space.

[Paul Mercurio]

But are my molecules being disassembled and reassembled like Star Trek?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, because wormholes are way better than that. You never.

[Paul Mercurio]

So you will enter dressed.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It is. You will step through and you come out the other side dressed.

[Additional Guest/Interviewer]

Exactly.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Another time, in another. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

And you'd still wear that shirt on that side of things. All right, good for you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Are you my mother? You visiting the other half of the galaxy? You wear that shirt.

[Paul Mercurio]

You're my son. And you are not gonna go dress to the other side of the universe like that young man.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

In a wormhole universe, there are no delivery trucks. There's no roads.

[Paul Mercurio]

Is there any downside to a wormhole universe?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Everyone who had a job driving.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay.

That'S true. You have to put that on your unemployment.

Filing every week.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It might happen well before then as self driving.

[Paul Mercurio]

Damn wormholes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right, we gotta wrap it up here.

[Paul Mercurio]

All right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right, dude, thanks for coming through.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right, we'll find you on. In the. In and out. Up and down.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah. In and out Burger in California. I'm serving french fries. Why don't you pay attention when I talk? It's inside out.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Inside out.

[Paul Mercurio]

Inside. You know, all of these things.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Inside.

[Paul Mercurio]

You can't remember two words. Inside out.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's the name of the Disney movie or the Pixar movie.

[Paul Mercurio]

You stepped into a mental wormhole. Inside out with Paul Mercurio.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right.

[Paul Mercurio]

And you've been on it. It's my podcast. And permission to speak. My show is online. Yes, yes, my YouTube channel. And people can follow me.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We love your show, your live show.

[Paul Mercurio]

Thanks.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right. And are you mercurial?

[Paul Mercurio]

You know what? People think I am.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah. My wife especially.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Look up the word. That's your SAT word for today. All right. This has StarTalk, Cosmic Query's grab bag edition, leaning very heavily to black holes. Yeah, very good.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All right. Until next time, Neil Degrasse Tyson. Keep looking up.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Paul Mercurio]

Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.