StarTalk Radio — “Cosmic Queries: Proving Einstein Right”

Host: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Guest: Prof. Jim Gates (Ford Professor of Physics, Brown University)
Co-host: Chuck Nice
Date: November 21, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the significance and continued testing of Albert Einstein's theories—particularly general relativity. Neil deGrasse Tyson and comic co-host Chuck Nice are joined by renowned physicist Jim Gates to tackle listener “cosmic queries.” Together, they explore why Einstein needed verifying at all, how experimental science caught up with his ideas, and which predictions scientists are still chasing today. Throughout, the discussion weaves in history, personal stories, and physics concepts explained with clarity and humor.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Did Einstein Need to Be “Proved Right”?

(Starts ~02:32)

• Einstein’s Breakthroughs: Early work in 1905 reshaped ideas of space, time, and relativity, but the physics community was slow to recognize his genius.
  • “In 1907, he was still in the patent office … People think that as soon as he came up with his wonderful theories, the world beat a path to his door … but no, no, no, no.” — Jim Gates (09:31)
• General Relativity’s Experimental Challenge: Math alone wasn’t enough—real-world evidence was needed to validate Einstein’s predictions.
  • “Just because the math works doesn't mean it has to correspond to any objective reality.” — Neil (12:44)
• The Eclipse Experiment: Astronomers realized that during a solar eclipse, starlight should bend as it passes near the Sun if Einstein’s theory was correct. This became the key test.
  • “If you could watch starlight during an eclipse … you might be able to see the light being bent by the sun.” — Jim Gates (14:14)

Notable Quote

“He did this great piece of work, but it took two years for the physics community to recognize what he had done while he was in that patent office, still trying to figure out how to get a job as a physics professor.”
— Jim Gates (09:48)

2. Einstein’s Collaborators and Human Side

(07:29–17:09)

• Jim Gates’ book, “Proving Einstein Right,” focuses on the astronomers who collaborated with Einstein and the emotional journey behind scientific discovery.

  • “What we really want to do is get inside of their heads and tell the story of what they were feeling as they went through this almost decade-long struggle.” — Jim Gates (07:49)

• Discussion of Einstein’s wife’s role and the collaborative nature of science:

  • “Being a scientist means that you swim in a sea of information, and that information comes from your colleagues. … You use them to hone and to refine your thoughts and distill your thoughts and curate your thoughts.” — Jim Gates (16:25)

3. The Magic of Mathematics in Physics

(19:00–21:02)

• Why does the math we invent so neatly describe the universe?
  • “This is the only piece of magic that I've ever experienced and seen in reality.” — Jim Gates (19:26)
  • “It acts like a third eye for those of us who are scientists. It lets us see things that are not seeable otherwise.” — Jim Gates (19:58)
• Discussion about communicating science with other potential intelligent beings via mathematics.

Cosmic Queries: Listener Questions

4. Special vs. General Relativity

(26:11–29:09)

• Special relativity: Deals with observers in constant motion; explains phenomena like the Doppler effect for light (bluer when toward you, redder when moving away).
• General relativity: Concerned with the nature of gravity—space and time forming a “spacetime,” curving near mass.
  • “Gravity is the bending of this thing [spacetime].” — Jim Gates (28:15)

5. Why Are Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity Incompatible?

(29:15–35:09)

• Quantum physics: Requires us to abandon the notion of particles as tiny balls; instead, entities are wave-like or particle-like. Classical gravity assumes particles.
  • “Quantum mechanics says, no, that's not the way it works for electrons. You have to think of these things that are more like waves, except when they act like particles. … When you now give that piece of mathematics up and try to do gravity, you find out you just get into a total mess.” — Jim Gates (31:06)
• Who “wins” the clash—quantum physics or gravity?
  Many theorists believe gravity, as currently understood, will have to change, or a new, deeper framework will reconcile both.
  • “There are people who will tell you that gravity is going to be one that loses this discussion.” — Jim Gates (33:13)

6. Future Tests of General Relativity’s Predictions

(35:31–39:03)

• Having detected gravitational waves and glimpsed a black hole's event horizon, “the next big thing” would be detecting the graviton, the quantum particle of gravity.
  • “Now that we have seen waves of gravity, we want to see the quantization of the energy carried by those waves … we will have the Star Trek graviton in our universe.” — Jim Gates (36:55)
  • No experiments currently exist to detect gravitons, but someday technology may allow it.

7. Is Curved Space Just a Convenient Approximation?

(38:17–39:03)

• Detecting the graviton may ultimately require rethinking gravity away from Einstein’s vision of geometry, to focus on field theory.
  • “I don't actually think about gravity in terms of geometry. It's field theory that's the tool for people like us.” — Jim Gates (38:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Einstein’s confidence:
  “He sort of says things like, if the theory of general relativity had failed to receive experimental and observation support, that he would have felt sorry for the good Lord, because that was a really brilliant idea.”
  — Jim Gates (17:33)

• On the social side of science:
  “I tell people all the time that being a scientist means that you swim in a sea of information … you are constantly in conversation with your colleagues.”
  — Jim Gates (16:25)

• On string theory and the “faith” of mathematics:
  “One of the weird things about mathematics is that you have to take some things on faith. There's actually a mathematical theorem that says this.”
  — Jim Gates (50:52)

• On multiple images of stars due to gravitational lensing:
  “If you have one object behind, that object will make a minimum of three images, one that comes straight through and then two that come around the side … You get to see the same event twice.”
  — Neil deGrasse Tyson (55:29, 56:03)

Interesting Timestamps

• Einstein’s “patent office years” and the origin of general relativity: 09:14–10:53
• Book “Proving Einstein Right” and its unique approach: 07:05–08:07
• On the interplay between math and reality: 19:00–21:02
• Listener question: General vs Special Relativity: 26:11–29:09
• Why quantum mechanics and relativity don’t mix: 29:14–35:09
• Future experiments, the search for the graviton: 35:31–39:03
• Gravitational lensing and duplicate images: 54:33–57:33
• Humorous mustache and hair society banter: 48:36–49:39

Lighthearted & Accessible Tone

• Chuck Nice regularly injects humor (e.g., comparing himself to a string cheese person; riffing on Einstein’s hair/mustache).
• Both Neil and Jim take complex physics questions and shape them into digestible stories and metaphors for the lay audience.
• Listeners genuinely curious about the intersection of science and story will enjoy the banter and gentle deflation of stereotypes about the solitary scientist.

Takeaways

• Proving Einstein “right” was a protracted, community effort—math alone never suffices in science.
• Einstein’s major theories broke open new questions that are still active frontiers for experiment and theory.
• The “magic” of mathematics remains the deepest mystery for many working physicists.
• Einstein’s predictions continue to be tested and refined—a testament to how science and technology move together.
• The search for a quantum theory of gravity (and the elusive graviton) frames the big open question of the century.

[Compiled summary stops at the end of substantive discussion, omitting ads, intros, sponsor segments, and outros.]