Curing Medical Misinformation with Dr. Noc & Scott Hamilton Kennedy

Summary

StarTalk Radio: Curing Medical Misinformation with Dr. Noc & Scott Hamilton Kennedy

Episode Release Date: May 16, 2025

Neil deGrasse Tyson hosts a compelling Special Edition of StarTalk Radio focused on tackling the pervasive issue of medical misinformation. Joined by Gary O'Reilly and Chuck Nice, alongside esteemed guests Dr. Knock (Dr. Noc) and documentary filmmaker Scott Hamilton Kennedy, the episode delves deep into the origins, impacts, and strategies to combat false medical narratives circulating online.

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1. Introduction to Medical Misinformation

The episode opens with Gary O'Reilly introducing the central theme: the challenge of discerning reliable medical information amidst a sea of online misinformation. Dr. Knock emphasizes the dangers of disinformation, stating, “[00:02:09] Dr. Knock: All right. Well, we live in a data-driven world and we actually always have, haven't we? Better information makes for better decisions.”

2. The Rise of Online Medical Misinformation

a. Democratization of Information

Neil deGrasse Tyson discusses the evolution from traditional media to social platforms, highlighting how the latter has democratized content creation. “[05:05] Neil deGrasse Tyson: It's a good question. So I think there's been the transition obviously from print to radio to television to now social media,” he explains, pointing out that while this shift allows more voices, it also amplifies both accurate and false information.

b. Algorithms and Confirmation Bias

The conversation shifts to the role of algorithms in perpetuating misinformation. Tyson notes, “[08:45] Neil deGrasse Tyson: So the algorithm, the way I think of algorithms, is really of people's attention.” He elaborates on how platforms prioritize content that retains user engagement, often favoring sensational or emotionally charged misinformation.

Chuck Nice adds a personal anecdote: “[08:11] Chuck Nice: I just hit not interested because... all my stuff was showing videos of people getting the crap beat out of them.”

3. Identifying and Combating Misinformation

a. Red Flags to Watch For

Dr. Knock outlines key indicators of misinformation:

• Anecdotal Evidence: “[28:17] Neil deGrasse Tyson: Anecdotes being presented in place of evidence is an immediate red flag.”
• Conflict of Interest: “[29:21] Neil deGrasse Tyson: Conflict of interest, that's a major red flag.”
• Sensational Claims: “[32:10] Neil deGrasse Tyson: ...make these really big, bold, sensational claims that aren't necessarily reflective of the scientific reality.”

b. Importance of Credible Sources

Gary O'Reilly emphasizes the necessity of relying on vetted information: “[37:20] Gary O'Reilly: The short answer is definitely no...” referring to doing thorough research, which most individuals lack the time and expertise to conduct independently.

c. Building Trust Through Personal Connection

Tyson highlights the significance of personal trust: “[35:38] Gary O'Reilly: Tell me, is there a person someone trusts more than an impersonal institution?” He recounts a personal experience where sharing a relatable moment (“[36:38] ...cooking dinner for your wife”) helped bridge trust gaps with his audience.

4. Debunking Common Medical Myths

a. "They Have a Cure for Cancer" Conspiracy

The panel tackles the myth that pharmaceutical companies suppress cancer cures for profit. Tyson dismantles this by explaining the biological diversity of cancers and the economic incentives for developing specific treatments: “[12:16] Neil deGrasse Tyson: You can't consider all cancer one thing... we have some really, really good treatments for cancers where 50 years ago, 70 years ago, survival rates were basically zero percent.”

b. Natural Remedies vs. Pharmaceuticals

Dr. Knock and Chuck Nice discuss the misconception that natural remedies are inherently safer or more effective, debunking claims about raw milk and Himalayan salt: “[23:30] Neil deGrasse Tyson: Raw milk has no meaningful benefits compared to pasteurized.”

c. Genetically Modified Organisms (GMOs)

The conversation clarifies that GMOs are not inherently harmful to health, though environmental concerns exist: “[24:28] Neil deGrasse Tyson: For your health? No. There is no direct harm from eating genetically modified foods.”

5. Understanding Vaccines and Addressing Hesitancy

a. The Science Behind Vaccines

Tyson provides a clear explanation of how vaccines function, likening the immune response to recognizing pathogens: “[40:27] Neil deGrasse Tyson: So the immune cells... just like a lineup at the airport.”

b. Debunking Vaccine Myths

The hosts address common misconceptions about vaccines causing the same side effects as diseases or overwhelming the immune system: “[43:34] Neil deGrasse Tyson: There comes a point where if you keep vaccinating against a certain pathogen, you don't get additional benefit.”

c. Vaccine Hesitancy and Social Implications

Scott Hamilton Kennedy discusses the broader societal issues tied to vaccine hesitancy, framing it as a failure of the social contract and emphasizing the role of storytelling in changing perceptions: “[65:37] Scott Hamilton Kennedy: Vaccines could be part of the social contract... we saw a disaster around our social contract.”

6. The Role of Storytellers in Science Communication

Kennedy highlights the power of narrative in influencing public opinion: “[58:19] Scott Hamilton Kennedy: Yuval Harari said it so beautifully in his book Sapiens that storytelling is the best tool we have available to us as human beings to get along, to agree to change things.”

He elaborates on his documentary work, stressing the importance of transparency and vetting in combating misinformation: “[63:43] Scott Hamilton Kennedy: Here are the tools we use for vetting. It's transparent.”

7. Conclusion: Rebuilding Trust and the Social Contract

The episode concludes with a call to action for both scientists and storytellers to collaborate in restoring public trust. Tyson emphasizes the need for institutions to humanize their processes and engage with the public authentically: “[39:22] Neil deGrasse Tyson: We would really benefit from personalization of these big institutions in a way that people feel they know people at them.”

Kennedy reinforces the importance of societal responsibility and collective effort in upholding health norms: “[64:34] Scott Hamilton Kennedy: ...vaccines could be part of the social contract...”

The hosts encourage listeners to seek out reliable sources and remain vigilant against misinformation, emphasizing that informed communities are essential for public health and societal well-being.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Knock: “[00:02:09] ...spreading medical disinformation that can threaten people's lives potentially.”

• Neil deGrasse Tyson: “[28:17] The plural of anecdotes is not data.”

• Scott Hamilton Kennedy: “[58:55] ...storytelling is the best tool we have available to us as human beings to get along, to agree to change things.”

• Gary O'Reilly: “[37:20] The short answer is definitely no...” (referring to conducting one's own in-depth research)

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This episode of StarTalk Radio offers an insightful exploration into the labyrinth of medical misinformation, providing listeners with the tools and understanding necessary to navigate and counteract false narratives. Through expert discussions and personal anecdotes, Tyson and his guests underscore the critical importance of trust, evidence-based information, and the collective responsibility to uphold scientific integrity in the digital age.

Transcript

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

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[Chuck Nice]

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[Gary O'Reilly]

What's a person to do online trying to find medical information that they can trust? We got to step in and do something about that.

[Dr. Knock]

We'll have to find someone who knows the truth.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, I think we already have him. He's here now.

[Dr. Knock]

Oh, that's good.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, it's not me, by the way.

[Dr. Knock]

That's a relief.

[Gary O'Reilly]

On Star Talk, how to sift fact from fiction on medical information on the Internet. Coming right up. Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk Special Edition. And when it's special edition, you know we've got Gary O'Reilly. Gary.

[Dr. Knock]

Hi, Neil.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Chuck Knight. How you doing, man?

[Chuck Nice]

Hey, what's happening, guys?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Can't do a show without you.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, man, that's very nice.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Although we do sometimes.

[Chuck Nice]

I was gonna say. I was about to say it's very nice, even though that's not true.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So today we're talking about medical misinformation.

[Chuck Nice]

I don't believe you.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Of.

[Dr. Knock]

Hey, they started early.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Medical misinformation. Gary, take me into this where we. What do we got?

[Dr. Knock]

All right. Well, we live in a data driven world and we actually always have, haven't we? Better information makes for better decisions. So why would you want to purposefully create disinformation? We are talking about spreading medical disinformation that can threaten people's lives potentially. How can we tell the difference between fact and fiction? What does the actual science say? It's expert time. Yeah. And for that, we went to a TikToker youtuber who is on the front line where this battle is taking place. Plus, Neil, we're gonna sit you down with an academy nominated filmmaker responsible for the vaccine documentary, A Shot in the Arm. And that would be Scott Hamilton Kennedy.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Coming up in this very.

[Dr. Knock]

Yes.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Podcast. Yes. So I have in my office here at the Hayden Planetarium of the American Museum of Natural History in New York City, who flew in from Boston for this interview, Dr. Knock Dr. Be here.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Thanks for the invitation, dude.

[Gary O'Reilly]

This is a clean cut, guys. You've ever seen.

[Chuck Nice]

I have to tell you, you are the whitest dude I've ever met.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You could see me dance.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I'm just saying.

[Chuck Nice]

I appreciate it though. I really do.

[Gary O'Reilly]

You have a PhD, so you're an academic medical. Medical professional. We can call it that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

In pharmacology.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Pharmaceutical sciences.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Pharmaceutical sciences.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Drug development, the immunology of drugs.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, cool, man.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay. And these are drugs invented by lab scientists to achieve some effect in our physiology. And that is your expertise. Yes, yes. Excellent. And you're definitely a social media influencer. And there's a word I just learned today. You got a medfluencer.

[Chuck Nice]

Medfluencer.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

For better or for worse.

[Chuck Nice]

Like a medical influencer. Influencer.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say.

[Chuck Nice]

I got you. Okay, I was. No, listen, I was trying to get.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Clear the word sucks. Yeah, okay. No, we'll get used to it. That's about words. You get used to them. And so you've taken it upon yourself to try to correct the Internet with all of its misguided ways regarding medical doses, medical choices.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Perhaps a misguided mission. But yeah, that's the goal.

[Chuck Nice]

No, that's a great mission. The Internet is a cesspool of misinformation and disinformation. So.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And what makes you think you, you could. I mean, you say, let me take on the whole Internet, right? A whole system.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah. Are you the guy that, in that meme where he's like brushing back waves with a. With a push broom, you ever see that? The guy with a push broom, he's on the beach trying to brush back the ocean.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, that's what it feels like.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So you've been on the Internet for now seven, six or seven years. When did the Internet become such a safe place for misinformation?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's a good question. So I think there's been the transition obviously from print to radio to television to now social media. I think it was that last gap which is really democratized. Anybody can sit down in their car and make a piece of content because.

[Gary O'Reilly]

You can't sit on your car and make a TV show.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There's these editorial layers, filters there. Right. Which you know is a bad thing because not everybody could get their thoughts out there. But now, of course, the downside is that everyone can do the same for positive information and false information.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Wait, wait. So the. So the tightest way to say what you just said was it was a problem that not everyone could get their information out when it was limited to tv, and now it's.

[Chuck Nice]

Get their information out.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. And so there's been this big shift, and of course, it's now entertainment, the medical information. On TikTok and Instagram, you're competing with people who are dancing and cats and dogs and everything. And so you may be presenting this very nuanced argument about something, but your constraint, you have to make it entertaining or no one's ever gonna see it.

[Dr. Knock]

So the truth is boring.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The truth is boring and nuanced and takes a long time to say.

[Dr. Knock]

Amazing, isn't it, where you can find an environment where the truth is exactly what you need it to be, yet some people are turning their back on it because it doesn't have a cat or it's not entertaining.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I find that in all the work that I do with climate.

[Gary O'Reilly]

He's got a second life where he's a climate advocate. Yes.

[Chuck Nice]

And it's so hard to have, like, very succinct, entertaining messaging because the other side has stuff like drill, baby, drill, and we don't.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Slogans.

[Chuck Nice]

Right. Slogans and slogans are great. That's why you see them on bumper stickers, because they work, you know, but make a sustainable economy through renewable energy, baby doesn't work. It just. Baby.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah. Right. Sounds like you've tried, though, and failed. So we've got here what might also be echo chambers, where people hear what they want or they look for information to. They look for their understanding of information to be affirmed. And you do a Google search and you'll find it. You'll find the seven other people who think exactly the way you do. And there's a false affirmation. So how do you sort that out for people?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So, I mean, that confirmation bias is really.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Confirmation bias.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Really, really hard to escape. And unless you're very thoughtful about doing so, you won't escape it. You have to be intentional. And being intentional, of course, takes a lot of mental energy, which you may not have. If you pull up Instagram, usually you're not looking to change your opinion on something. You're Looking to spend five minutes while you're waiting for, you know, a train or something. So it really takes a very intentional effort to get out of this type of bubble.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah. Do the algorithms still push things towards people even though, like, your confirmation bias is wrong? Does it still say, let me go get more of this information? Because that just makes it even worse for you then.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So the algorithm, the way I think of algorithms, is really of people's attention. Like, what is holding people's attention? And so, inescapably, platforms seek to optimize. How long are people going to stay on our platform and see more ads? The business model, it is, and it works extremely well. And it's good for the consumer because you are interested and you're entertained while you're watching it. But the dark side is sometimes the things that hold your attention the most are not what you would intellectually choose. If you tick off on a paper ahead of time. I want to watch videos about this. You find yourself slipping into, like, rage, baity content, things that are arousing these negative emotions. Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

Yes, yes, yes. And you know what's funny about that? Okay. I'm embarrassed to say this. I just found out. I think it was our producer Alex, who taught me, you can just go up and put not interested, and it says, okay, we won't show you any more of this. Which I did not know.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I didn't know that either.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah. And then all my.

[Gary O'Reilly]

There's a lot of crap showing up on my line. I'm ready to.

[Chuck Nice]

And I'm like. And so I'm like, am I an angry guy? Every video is somebody beating the crap out of somebody. What is going on? Like, why is this happening?

[Gary O'Reilly]

It's your inner self.

[Chuck Nice]

It is my inner self, I guess.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I think there's truth to that. You can learn a lot about somebody just by looking at 10 videos on their feed or something. Probably. It's one of the deepest ways to. You know.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That's scary. Yeah, it is scary.

[Chuck Nice]

It is. Yeah. But now I. Now I just hit not interested because. Although here's the problem. The reason I hit not interested is because I was watching it. This stuff would come across and I'd be like, oh, my God, is it Tuesday? I just spent the whole day watching people get the crap beat out of them. And I didn't want to.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And this is a topic of research. If you ask people, do you want to see negative content and emotional content, they'll tell you no. But if. Then you track what happens when it comes across their feed they stick through. It's like a car crash, you know, like, everyone turns to look their head at the last second. You almost can't escape watching this content, even if intellectually, you think it's not good for me.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So as an influencer, you need to be sensitized to that so you know how to navigate it for what you create and what your expectations are right for the audience. So, Gary, why don't you give us.

[Dr. Knock]

A laundry list here, all right, before we do. Because you're fighting this disinformation, you can't just go onto your platform and say, you know, don't watch that. Don't listen. You're dumb, because this is immediately causing a problem. So what are your strategies to actually get across and make this information more acceptable to people who wouldn't necessarily want to know?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Let me ask that better.

[Dr. Knock]

Of course, in English.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Why should anyone listen to your ass instead of anybody else if you're both talking medicine online?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So there is this tension of who are you trying to talk to? Is it people who already agree with you, in which case you may sort of go for sensationalized approaches to a topic, or is it people in the middle who are undecided, in which case you may take a more nuanced approach to discussion? If you want to change minds, you have to do number two. The problem with doing number two is it's inherently less interesting than speaking to people who already agree with you.

[Gary O'Reilly]

It's not as good. Clickbait.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's not. So you have to figure out strategies in the first half a second, five seconds to kind of make it entertaining, whether it's. And I've done some pretty embarrassing videos where the whole theme of the video is POV point of view. We're dancing at a party, and I'm, like, dancing on screen while I'm exploring some medical topic. And the only reason I'm doing these bad dance moves on screen is to keep it entertaining. Well, I'm just clear they're bad dance.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Moves, not badass dance moves.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, just to be clear, it depends on the video, but there has to be something to get people watching.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So there's some common medical topics that people have strong opinions about and have chosen their expert who feeds them this information. So you compile the list.

[Dr. Knock]

All right, let's start off with one that's obviously quite popular. Is there a cure for cancer that they are keeping secret?

[Chuck Nice]

It's always they.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The they.

[Dr. Knock]

They.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, they being the pharmaceutical companies and the government researchers and the university researchers, collectively tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people.

[Chuck Nice]

Because, you know, it's easier to make money off of the treatment than it is the cure.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

And I'm like, clearly, you know nothing about pharmaceutical companies, because let me tell you something. If they had a cure for cancer, it'd be like, yes, we have the Cure. It is $1 million per pill.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And that happens. That's part of the answer. There's a few ways to answer this question. One is the biology of the cancer itself. One is from the pharmaceutical company's perspective, and one is from social media perspective. But certainly, like, you're saying there are cures for some cancers.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You can't consider all cancer one thing. It's hundreds of different diseases. There will never be a treatment for all cancers. But we have right now some really, really good treatments for cancers where 50 years ago, 70 years ago, survival rates were basically zero percent. The most common pediatric cancer, acute lymphoblastic leukemia, all literally from 0% in the 1950s. Today, something like 90% success rates with treatments.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And in the 10% of patients who don't respond well initially, there are backup treatments like car T cell therapies, which happen to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, but are super effective.

[Dr. Knock]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And so the point is, you know, over time, research does develop treatments for specific cancers. When they work really well, you can charge lots of money. And you can bet that if pharmaceutical companies could sell that treatment for all cancers and multiply their market size by 30 fold, they would be jumping at the opportunity to do so.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So where's the ethical compass for a pricing company? On the pricing? Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

I believe it's the twisting of the mustache. That's how the compass works.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So in that example.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Right.

[Chuck Nice]

Or the biting of the pinky, you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Check the bank account balance and notify the shareholders. So part of it is there's this limited period of patent exclusivity where you make as much money as you can to try to justify all of your R and D that you've done up until that point. And then you get generics, which are much cheaper. So cisplatin first, testicular cancer, metastatic testicular cancer, used to be super low survival rate. Then researchers discovered cisplatin, this drug. You've reduced mortality by something like 2/3, I think, since the 1970s.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's generic now, I think the cost of a vial, I don't know exactly. It's like tens of dollars, hundreds of dollars. So you get this initial period where you can make a lot of money off Of a new drug.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And then everybody else gets to compete with you in that drug. You see the same.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And how much time is that?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I can't remember the exact number. Maybe 10 years, 15 years. It differs for chemical drugs or biologic drugs.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But wait, biology is just a extreme expression of chemistry.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So how do you distinguishing chemical drugs from biological drugs?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So chemical drugs being like small molecule, maybe a better example. Biologics like antibody drugs, where it's this protein that's been synthesized by cells.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So vaccines would come under that category.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Vaccines, I think are biologics.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But you see stuff like metastatic melanoma used to have a median survival time. And when I say used to, I'm Talking about the 2000s, like 2010. Median survival time of 6 to 9 months.

[Gary O'Reilly]

This is skin cancer.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Skin cancer that has spread to your lymph nodes and maybe other places in the body. Horrible prognosis. Until people developed what is currently a very expensive treatment, melanin.

[Chuck Nice]

And the reason it's expensive is cause it's hard as hell to be black.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Tell me I'm lying. Well, a warning for sun induced skin cancer.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Okay, so you can't totally discount risk of skin cancer.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Of course.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So just to be precise, the evidence that I know says that white people are 25 times more likely to contract skin cancer than black people. All because of the melanin. But the risk, not zero.

[Dr. Knock]

No.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Bob Marley died of skin cancer.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah. He was light skinned though. No, stop.

[Gary O'Reilly]

No, no. It was on the bottom of his foot. So it wasn't sun.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow. It wasn't sunny juice. It was just. Yeah, yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Back to your. Your.

[Chuck Nice]

Yes. Anyway, yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The cure for that, metastatic melanoma, 2010, median survival time six to nine months.

[Dr. Knock]

Wow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Today I think it's almost 10 years.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Wow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And so the difference is that people have been doing all this basic and translational research. Now we have drugs called checkpoint inhibitors that modify your immune system. So your immune system can now go attack the cancer better.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And they're very expensive.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

They're currently on patent. I think most of them are on patent. They're going to become generic. They will become less expensive. But I can tell you the companies that make them right now would love to sell them for every cancer out there if they had data showing it worked for every cancer out there.

[Chuck Nice]

Also you get to re up the patent for the different uses. So if, like, if you could, if you can modify the drug in any way to treat something else. That's a brand new patent.

[Dr. Knock]

That's a downstream effect of these drugs to find out they've got other applications.

[Chuck Nice]

Exactly.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So it has to be a meaningful. You can't just tinker with it and try to be cute and then say we got a new patent. Right. Because what people will do is say, well, that's not a meaningful difference. We're still just going to use the generic of your first drug. It works just as well. So you really do have to make.

[Chuck Nice]

You really gotta make a. It has to be a true alteration.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right?

[Chuck Nice]

Ah, okay. That makes sense.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

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[Dr. Knock]

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[Chuck Nice]

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

This is StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

[Dr. Knock]

Does big Big Pharma suppress natural remedies because they aren't profitable? Which kind of touches on what we've just been discussing?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, I shouldn't say. Yeah, I should say no, that's the start to that question. There's actually a huge number of drugs that have natural origins, and I'll think of a few examples. Aspirin's a good example. Aspirin from, I think, willow bark. For thousands of years, people took it and turned it into salves or ointments or whatever it was for the same properties. A chemist figured out. I forget what year, but, you know, this is the active compound in the willow bark that's having these effects. If we modify it a little bit, it reduces the gastrointestinal side effects. We sell that now as aspirin. And clearly aspirin is not very expensive yet.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Or should that be the buffered aspirin that protects your stomach lining?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right. Cd. Salicylic acid versus salicyn. I'm not a chemist.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay, okay.

[Chuck Nice]

Sound like one, but go ahead.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But basically, and that's one example. I think, like, I Forget the number. 30, 40% of all drugs, FDA approved drugs do have a natural origin, either directly from nature or it's been modified a little bit and then used as a.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And how much of that was studied from indigenous cultures that had long traditions?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Some of it was like, if there's this story of people have used this plant for hundreds or thousands of years, researchers take it, isolate all the compounds, put it in this huge panel against a cancer target, for example, and you get a psychedelic.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Those were found. Every culture found that A doubt the plants.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So the misconception, I think, is if it looks like a pill, it's not natural. It's very possible that the molecules in there came from the bark of some tree.

[Chuck Nice]

I hate when I hear people say, oh, it's not a natural remedy. And I'm like, here's the thing. Everything that's happening in your body is happening on a molecular basis. So these people have found a way to figure out a way to isolate the molecular compounds, and it's the same thing. So now you don't have to eat a bustle full of weeds. You can just take a pill, dummy. It's called progress. Anyway, sorry.

[Dr. Knock]

Okay, so progressing are raw diets, I. E. Raw milk, raw meat, healthier because they're more natural. And then we've got a caveat here. What about pink Himalayan sea salt versus.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Regular table, Both very closely related. The answer is no.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Watch where you step there. I have Himalayan salt, and I spent a lot of money on it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. People will claim, you know, the Pink Salt has 400% more of this mineral compared to regular table salt. If neither of Them in the first place were supplying a meaningful amount of that nutrient or mineral to your health. It's not a difference. And so the risk is actually, if.

[Gary O'Reilly]

You think what you're saying is 400 times, a small number is still a small number.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Exactly. Right. It's 1% versus 4% of your daily intake. And you're getting more from eating a mango or whatever it might be otherwise. And so the risk is, if people think pink Himalayan sea salt is healthy for me now you're using more of it on your food. And the real health impact is second order. It's now you're eating 3000 milligrams of salt per day instead of 1500 because you think it's giving you these health effects. Right. And then you'd have risk for hypertension.

[Chuck Nice]

And the number one contributor to hypertension is salt intake. So I mean, aside from heredity, like, you know, so first is. Yeah, all that kind of. But first is being black. Then let's be honest, okay, you black, you're going to get high blood pressure, but then it's your lifestyle and then sodium intake, you know.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. And the raw milk is similar. There's no meaningful benefits to consuming raw milk or raw meat compared to the pasteurized version. And so people will blow this weight up proportion. I think this is where people get tribalized on social media. You have people who very passionately only drink raw milk or who otherwise say, if you do drink raw milk, you're going to die or something.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, so that's the polarization of that decision.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Exactly, yes. And so people's lived experiences are, well, I drink raw milk all the time and so do my friends and none of us have died. What are you talking about?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And realistically, you know, maybe hundreds or a couple thousand people may be hospitalized per year from doing it. It's not a big risk, but it's an unnecessary risk because there's no benefit from drinking raw milk compared to pasteurized.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But the people who say there is a benefit, what reasons are they giving?

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, and what, and what, what are the supposed benefits? Because this is, this got really big a couple of months ago. It got huge.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It was a movement and it's because of this polarization. People like identify as raw milk as an anti establishment statement almost. And there are proposed things like it's got these undenatured proteins or enzymes or live bacteria in it.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Which mechanistically we think will help your health. I haven't seen any evidence to support any of those actual benefits as being Truly beneficial.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But somebody came up with it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, they did.

[Gary O'Reilly]

To assume that it's true.

[Chuck Nice]

Right. And I know who that guy was.

[Dr. Knock]

Okay, moving on. Are GMO foods bad for your health?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

For your health? No. I have no concern eating a genetically modified food. The fact that there's a modified gene in there or leading to a modified protein, you digest it just like any other protein or DNA in all the food that we eat. There is though sort of a second level of effect. It's not bad from you eating the modified corn or whatever.

[Dr. Knock]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And I'm not an expert on this part, but what are the environmental impacts of now having this monoculture and having companies being in control of the seeds that are used to make that particular product or different pesticide use that are specific for those modified things? Those are all separate questions from if I eat this modified soy or corn, is it going to directly harm my health? To that part, the answer is very clearly no.

[Chuck Nice]

Right. So what you're saying is that there are separate arguments that you can make against GMOs, but not the one that talks about whether or not it's harmful to you physiologically.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right, right. And there's quite a lot of, you know, decades of research from very large populations showing there's not health risks from eating the modified version of this.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And by the way, aren't. Isn't most, Aren't most crops mono crops?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I mean, whether or not it's gmo, I mean, isn't.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I don't know the answer to that. I know for like corn and soy and stuff, I think like 90% plus are GMO.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So if you're eating any corn based product.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And maybe there's something to be said there. If the process of GNO makes corn more available in our diet and that meaningfully shifts the overall food profile that we're eating, maybe that shift has an impact on our dietary intake overall as a culture. It has nothing to do with the corn itself versus an unmodified corn.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Right.

[Chuck Nice]

And by the way, I don't know if you've ever seen heirloom corn, but screw that crap. Okay? Like the corn that's modified is juicy and delicious.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah. And sweet and everything large.

[Chuck Nice]

Not this pink and purple and blue shriveled up little thing that, you know, they call corn.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think there's very little food sold in a supermarket that matches its ungenetically modified ancestor. Ancestor.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, yeah, right. Absolutely.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So all of them. So. So if it's not laboratory gmo, it'd be farmer. Right, right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Because at some point selected over centuries.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And I don't have people say they should label the food if it's gmo. And while that's surely not necessary, if you did do that, I would say label it so GMO and then have one branch say, and is it scientist GMO or is it farmer gmo.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And then every food item in the.

[Chuck Nice]

Would be gmo, Would be gmo.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Some kind.

[Chuck Nice]

Anytime you make a hybrid or cross breed or do anything like that, you're genetically modifying the plants.

[Dr. Knock]

It's carrots, isn't it? Carrots originally were purple.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah. By the way, I love purple carrots.

[Dr. Knock]

Yeah, there you go. Right, moving on. What about fluoride in the water?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

These types of broader public health initiatives, if you take them away, it's not going to harm everyone equally. Assuming there is a benefit.

[Chuck Nice]

Interesting.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Who's it going to most deeply impact? The people who have least access to dental care, who have least access to fluoridated toothpaste and regular toothbrushing. Right. There's a large chunk of society who possibly wouldn't see as much of a big health impact compared to another section of society who may see massive disproportionate.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And that dialogue that's never discussed. Nobody ever talks about it.

[Chuck Nice]

Right, right.

[Dr. Knock]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And certainly if you happen to be in a very privileged stance, you can't decide just based on yourself for very broad public health meth. You shouldn't. You certainly can and people often do.

[Dr. Knock]

Yeah. So following up on your sort of comment and clever was, what are some of the red flags? The content might be misinformed. What gets your ears pricked up and go, oh, hello.

[Chuck Nice]

Good stuff.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, it's a lot. It's a very strong overlap with the type of content that is very intriguing to watch. And so you'll see anecdotes being presented. I have three friends who had very late stage cancer. They took XYZ medications and now none of them have cancer.

[Chuck Nice]

Hydroxychloroquine. Okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, I wasn't going to name medications.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

This is a different podcast that is frequently done. So anecdotes being presented in place of evidence is an immediate red flag. But it's also really.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But they think it's evidence. They think it's evidence when they present it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And there's a saying, the plural of anecdotes is not data.

[Chuck Nice]

Nice. I need that on a T shirt. Yes, but only scientists have even. Even their slogans are boring. The plural of anecdotes is not Data, which is beautiful to say. I wish most people got it, though.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. And it's not a replacement for a controlled clinical study where you're monitoring all these different variables that otherwise can easily confound whatever you're looking at.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Right. What I tell people when they say, oh, I have an aunt who took this herbal cure for cancer and she's doing just fine right now. And I say the nine people who took that oral cure and are now dead are not being interviewed by anybody.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No.

[Dr. Knock]

How much of what gets put out on social media has behind it a.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Conflict of interest, that's a major red flag. So if you see somebody telling you, oh, this autoimmune disease and this cancer and this heart disease are all due to a deficiency in these three vitamins, which, if you go to the link in my bio, I happen to be selling in a vial for $90 per month, can you really trust that? These very broad statements. First of all, making broad statements like that, there's a reason why people see individual nutritionists and dietitians and doctors. It's because you can't give prescriptive advice like, if you take more vitamin D, you can solve your autoimmune disease. That's simply not true. But if you're selling a vitamin D capsule, you're very motivated to make that type of statement.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay, so that's another red flag there. However, just because they're selling it to you doesn't mean it doesn't work.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Correct.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So this would only mean you just want to be a little more cautious. But it's not an immediate disqualifying event.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Exactly. So I would start from a place of skepticism to start. And then if you see, oh, there's conflict of interest, and they're presenting only anecdotes, and they're being sensationalized and exaggerating, and they're claiming that this one particular treatment is helping with five different diseases.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And they're really charismatic.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And they're really charismatic. Then your guardrail should be almost at the roof.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Dr. Knock]

Okay, so that's the universal cural tablet, potion, lotion.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. If somebody's selling you something and they say you've got autoimmune disease or heart disease or cancer, or you're feeling depressed, maybe you need more of this thing that costs $100.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Isn't this the same as the dude that sells elixir?

[Chuck Nice]

The tonic?

[Gary O'Reilly]

The tonic, yes. From the back of the wagon.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The snake oil.

[Chuck Nice]

Snake oil, yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Exactly the same thing.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But on the Internet today, working in.

[Dr. Knock]

The same principles Working to the same audience.

[Gary O'Reilly]

We're all still human.

[Dr. Knock]

Vulnerable to those susceptible humans.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, and that's exactly it. Because when you're feeling vulnerable, when you're feeling like I've been to the doctor, they told me they don't know exactly what's going on, but this person says maybe they do and they've got this thing they can sell me, maybe it'll work. If you weren't feeling vulnerable in that moment, you might easily identify that as, oh, they're just grifting, they're trying to make a buck.

[Dr. Knock]

So they're looking for the desperate, the.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Last refuge or the desperate to find them.

[Dr. Knock]

Yes.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Right.

[Dr. Knock]

All right, the other one here. False dichotomies and polarized thinking.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So this is another example of things that perform super well on social media. If you say if you don't eat a totally plant based or a totally carnivore diet, you're at risk for all these different diseases. The reality is in between, like obviously if you eat more whole plant based foods and vegetables and nuts and legumes and whole grains, that's better for your health. But it's not like you can't occasionally have some non plant based foods. It's a spectrum. But the type of content that's always going to perform really well is where you make these really big, bold, sensational claims that aren't necessarily reflective of the scientific reality.

[Gary O'Reilly]

How is one to know that? Is the evidence that they're making an extraordinary claim. Yeah, that's the evidence.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's one of these things where if that's ticking a box on the content, they're making this super exaggerated claim.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Wow. So this should be like a toolkit, like a checklist. Yeah, and checklist you send around. Do we believe that the medical misinformation is known to be misinformation by the people peddling it, or do they actually think it's real? Because if they think it's real, then someone else has to know it's misinformation and not the person who's delivering it.

[Dr. Knock]

But it becomes misinformation and then if they know that it's false and they still share it, then it becomes disinformation.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, Yeah, I think there's both. I think a lot of the time people do genuinely believe the things they're saying. Even if they're selling the product to fix this deficiency or whatever, they're not doing it. Sometimes they may be, but they're not always doing it knowingly deceiving you. A lot of the Time. I think people do believe the things.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That they're pedaling and that that boosts their sincerity on camera.

[Chuck Nice]

Right?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. I don't think you can do it otherwise. You can't sit in front of a camera and lie to people for years knowingly just extracting money from them. Some people can. Most people, I don't think could.

[Chuck Nice]

Well, I think what people do psychologically is convince themselves. So they lie to themselves first until they believe their own lie because that can happen and then they're able to promulgate that lie convincingly because they actually believe it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. And this up until recently, I wasn't sure if some of the biggest sort of peddlers of disinformation and questionable supplements really believe what they were talking about. I watched this crazy video about Joe Mercola, one of the largest sort of supplement salesmen and pushers of misinformation. Investigative reporting showing he consults with what he believes is an entity from the causal plane. He gets on zoom sessions with this sort of seer person who is relaying messages from this other plane of existence. It's astonishing to show that, you know, he truly believes that this person is channeling this other entity and guiding his business practice and the types of information. He's going to be one of the top 10 suppliers like medical institutions in the world. Stunning. To see the videos of these zoom sessions and realize he's not making this up from his mansion just to try to sell people more supplements. There's something deeper going on here, right?

[Dr. Knock]

Disinformation, misinformation is one thing. When you angle it and you bring it in an anti science way. This can't just be, we don't like science. Let's move on. There must be strategies, there must be ways at which this messaging is being pushed and delivered.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And by the way, it's, it's not only anti science, it's also. Well, I don't trust scientists. You know, you have the urge to say, well trust me, I'm an expert. But then anyone can say that. And so why should I trust you and not someone else?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right? Or someone with the exact same credentials, right. PhDs, doctors all the time make statements that are totally incorrect.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And many of them have the pedigree of what school they attended or they were awarded in.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And so yeah, I think that you're. Another comment about trust is a huge one. If most people think about the FDA or the NIH or the cdc, there's probably not a face that comes to mind that's the opposite at all at all. Maybe one person. But even if there is one person, they don't know what that person is like in their free time. They don't know if they have a family or what they enjoy. That's the opposite of what happens on social media. You develop these deep like personal relationships almost with people that you see whether they're pushing misinformation or evidence based information. I think it takes that human connection to actually build up trust in whatever someone is saying.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Wait, so you're saying that the people who are peddling misinformation are developing a relationship with their viewer where the viewer trusts them?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay, so how's the trust going in your TikTok channel?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So aside from medical information videos especially.

[Chuck Nice]

Do you get a lot of haters who are just like, you're so full.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Of, you know, sometimes this is working.

[Chuck Nice]

With a big pharma.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Chuck.

[Chuck Nice]

Chuck.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Haters will be haters.

[Chuck Nice]

Haters, Haters going hate.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It happens, you know, with a big enough viewership you get all manner of comments and. But part of it is not just making like, I'm going to tell you about ibuprofen today. I make videos with my dog or I'll do a little silly dancing video or a trend or something. Just to show that you are a real person. You're not just parroting data from a.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Research paper with a lab coat.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah. In fact, the most memorable DM I've ever received this is back in 2021. Everyone had questions about the COVID vaccine. So I was talking about that for 99% of the live streams. I come to the very end of it and I say, I've gotta go, my wife is almost home from the hospital. I've gotta go cook her dinner. And then I end the livestream.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Cool.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And then all the comments were about that. The message I got afterwards was I didn't know if I believed you about the COVID vaccines. I don't know if I can trust you. I don't know if I can trust science until you said the reason you were leaving was to go cook dinner for your wife. And I realized, like, you're just a normal person.

[Dr. Knock]

So what is the best strategy for viewers who want to know rather than absorb information from someone who is very entertaining and very personable, but may not be the right source? Where do they go? Is it do your own research?

[Chuck Nice]

Have you done the research?

[Dr. Knock]

Niels talked about it. You've got this confirmation bias. How do you sort of navigate through that for getting the right, right information.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Right Especially since you have a PhD. How many years did it take for your PhD?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Four and a half.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So for nearly five years focusing on that one topic.

[Chuck Nice]

Right, right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Years, journals, papers published. And there are people who spend half hour in an afternoon saying, I did the research, I did the research.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Which could be listening to a podcast, it could be watching a YouTube video. And so the short answer is, realistically, I think most people can't do their own research in the way that I would interpret doing one's own research on a topic. And so what you're about to, in.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Fact, half of graduate school is learning how to be a graduate student.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's really, it's complex, not just to find the relevant research papers, but to critically interpret their study design and the results in the context of the broader literature. You're talking hundreds of hours of just time spent reading in a given topic area. No one's going to do that. Certainly not after watching an Instagram video and then questioning, is this medically accurate? And so what you're left with, unfortunately, is you do have to identify people or institutions that you trust.

[Chuck Nice]

I was gonna say trusted sources is really the key.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You're never gonna go do all of the research required on every given medical topic or topic, you know, in general in your life.

[Dr. Knock]

So do the institutions need to do more to make this accessible in the face of the fact that science seems to have been weaponized and turned against itself?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, I think there's a critical shortcoming in that. If people were to tune in to the four hour discussion section where the CDC talks about the benefits and risks of this vaccine or this intervention, you would very quickly realize these people are taking a very rigorous approach to both the medical risks and the benefits. I trust them to come up with the right answer. You never see any of that, even though it's technically publicly available, because all of the focus, most of the focus is not on communicating those sort of inner details of how these decisions are made. It ends up being this is the decision or the recommendation or the recommendation for good reason perhaps, because then doctors can take that and make that recommendation known. But I think things have shifted, even just in since COVID I think we would really benefit from personalization of these big institutions in a way that people feel they know people at them.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay, I'm old enough to remember this would be mid-80s now, early-80s, where the surgeon General, C. Everett Koop, came out and said, you gotta wear condoms, prevent the spread of aids. And I don't think anyone had publicly said the Word condom before, Right. Especially not a public official. And people trusted him. Plus, he had his little sex education.

[Dr. Knock]

In school, and that was about it.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, and plus he had a certain grandpa element to him. He was a face of the nation's medicine, Right?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And Fauci maybe was that, but not really. So is that the solution here?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I think that's a big part of it is really humanizing the process of how do we come to these recommendations in the first place? And then do we trust your recommendation? Because we know the process you've gone through. People are never going to sit down and do 300 hours worth of research on a topic.

[Dr. Knock]

As someone with a PhD in pharmacology, and I will mention immunology, explain the actual science of how vaccines work and how the body then goes to create the necessary antibodies.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's actually the same process as when you're infected with a virus. And so it's the same answer for both. I'll answer it. From a vaccine standpoint, you get the injection in your arm. What have you just injected? Most often, little pieces of the pathogen. So what happens in your arm tissue? Pretty much nothing right there. You've got one big immune cell that comes in and scoops it up. It takes it to your draining lymph node is what it's called. So it goes through this whole separate pathway in your body. You've got your blood circulatory system. Most people don't know. You actually have a separate, almost circulation system called lymph lymphatic system. So the white blood cells travel from wherever you got the injection, it carries it back to a lymph node, and it starts showing it to all these other immune cells. And it says, do you recognize this? No. Do you recognize this? No. Until it finds one.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, it's like a lineup.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It is. And the neat part is all of those cells that are just sitting in your lymph node waiting to be shown something they recognize.

[Dr. Knock]

They'll sit there like this.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Exactly. Like the guy for the car at the airport.

[Gary O'Reilly]

If they don't recognize it, then what?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Nothing happens.

[Chuck Nice]

And then the one lymph node is just like, take your time. It's okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Exactly. The immune cells getting tired, walking along. But all of those cells were randomly generated in advance.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So before COVID ever existed, you had in your body T cells and B cells that recognized Covid. And then when you eventually got infected for the first time or got your vaccine, it was like their time to shine. Basically, they're like, oh, hey, I know that one. When that happens, that cell gets activated. It multiplies, multiplies, multiplies. It starts making antibodies that go back to your site of infection, go throughout your whole body. It also activates T cells. So T cells are the ones that recognize, oh, that friendly cell is infected with a virus. I better kill that cell, I better kill that cell. Right, exactly. So you get this combination of antibodies that are floating around to neutralize the virus when it's in between cells and T cells to kill the ones that are incubating virus actively. And that same process happens whether you've been infected with a virus, it still takes the piece of virus and goes to the lymph node and activates the B and T cells.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Here's something I never understood. There are people who had pretty serious side effects to the COVID vaccine. If the vaccine is doing what Covid itself would have done, does that mean they would have had those same side effects had they gotten Covid straight up?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I don't think so. I don't know of data to say one way or the other if the severity of your vaccine response is predictive.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Honest.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Honest but boring. That's the trade off.

[Dr. Knock]

I think I can cope with that.

[Gary O'Reilly]

No, I just want to call out that when a scientist is speaking and they're honest about their work and they don't say, I don't know, one way or another, that's honesty.

[Dr. Knock]

I'd rather that.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Right.

[Dr. Knock]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

You could lie to us and be really confident and then do what you say.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, man. If you got a bad fever after the injection, you would have died from COVID I don't know one way or the other. My suspicion is that there's probably not much of a link between the two. And also that it would be very hard to test because obviously, once you are vaccinated, you're not going to be. Then when you get infected, it's going to be.

[Chuck Nice]

And by the way, your infection, if you. If you do get it, it's going to be lessened by the fact that you've been vaccinated.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Chuck Nice]

So, yeah, it's like trying to get.

[Dr. Knock]

Toothpaste back in the tube.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Knock]

Not happening. Let's talk about the less extreme misunderstandings about vaccines, starting with can you have too many vaccinations?

[Chuck Nice]

Hmm.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The short answer is no. There comes a point where if you keep vaccinating against a certain pathogen, you don't get additional benefit. There's actually really big results just published for HPV vaccines. One dose versus two doses.

[Gary O'Reilly]

The human Papilloma virus.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's right. The one that causes cervical cancer. Going from one dose to two doses is not that much better than one dose.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Very important to know that critically for. But that has to be. Trials have to reveal that, otherwise you wouldn't know.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, no. This is the result of decades of clinical studies. Maybe to your question, though, of in general, like people talk about, oh, my child's gonna receive X number of vaccines over Y number years. To that one, the answer is definitely no if you consider the total number of pathogens we're exposed to on a daily basis. Think about your entire gut. It's constantly being sampled for bacteria and viruses and everything. And then your immune system is secreting antibodies into your gut to regulate your gut microbiome. An additional one or 10 pathogens per vaccine is a drop in the bucket.

[Chuck Nice]

Compared to, compared to everything that's happening inside your body all the time.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And by the way, I cannot emphasize enough that the comparison he gave is very common in science. You can say, will this harm me?

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And yeah, but look at all the other things you're doing and you're not worried about that harming you. And Those risks are 10 times as high.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And it's not a harm.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That's very important comparison to make. And it's a statistical comparison that I don't think people are comfortable or have experience doing.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, well, because the way they intuit.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Is the intuition is false.

[Chuck Nice]

Is false. Yeah, they intuit wrongly because they say, well, if I took this vaccine and this vaccine and this vaccine and this vaccine all at the same time, my body must not be able to handle that. And that is what is causing this disease or this condition or whatever. But the truth is your body is responding to it because it's responding to that all the time.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. And separately, in parallel, this goes back to the fact there's all these cells sitting in your lymph node waiting for their target.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Just because you activate this, this other one is still available, just waiting for its target. You can activate both at the same time.

[Chuck Nice]

At the same time. They're doing different things. They're. They're fighting different things. It's not like one is stepping on the other.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Chuck Nice]

You know, they're both going, it's like a five alarm fire. One fire station is called, then a second fire station is called. They don't cancel each other out. They help each other do their thing. You know, one takes one part of house, one takes another. So yeah, all right.

[Dr. Knock]

Couple of other less extreme misunderstandings to go through. Can you firstly overload the immune system or can you boost the immune system?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, great question.

[Chuck Nice]

That's. Wow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You both cannot boost your immune system in the ways you're thinking of. Nor do I think it would be a good idea to boost your immune system. You want balance your immune system. Actually if you get too much immune activity, you know what you end up with? Autoimmune disease.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

If you get too little immune activity in your body, that increases your risk for cancer. Right. And so it's this balance between having just enough immune activity to respond to acute infections and stuff. But even if you could boost your immunity by taking some supplement, I don't know that you would want to do so.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There are certainly.

[Chuck Nice]

It's funny because when we start out in life, that's the whole idea is not to keep your child away, just let them go, do whatever because they're going to encounter these pathogens naturally and then they're going. Their body is. Their immune system is going to develop accordingly.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. I should say there are things you can do to reduce the function of your immune system. So you don't want to be not getting enough sleep.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I should say it in the way that you should do it. You should get high quality, high.

[Gary O'Reilly]

You don't double negative the thing.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, I'm confusing myself. So get proper sleep, sleep, nutrition, physical activity. Right. Low stress over time. These things are boring. They do meaningfully impact your immune response. If you sleep deprive someone before giving them a vaccine. You can measure differences in the titers they're going to develop like in the days leading up to and after vaccine.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But in the what that they're going.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

To develop like the antibody responses to that vaccine will be worse if you've sleep deprived them for the days leading up to it.

[Chuck Nice]

Look at that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So the basic lifestyle stuff, like is.

[Dr. Knock]

That an experiment someone's conducted?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It is, yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

We'd want to volunteer for that. Exactly.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So if you're doing those every year.

[Chuck Nice]

And I took the vaccine. No, go ahead.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. If you're doing sort of the basic lifestyle stuff that you know already for every other disease on the planet, that's basically the extent of what you want to do to be caring for your immune system. It's also going to help you with everything else.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Before we go on and bring on my next guest, why is it that some vaccines need to be boosted later on whereas others don't?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Great question.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So in other words, you can be immune, you can be vaccinated for life with One kind, but another one you need a measles is like that. Is that right?

[Dr. Knock]

Yeah. If you got a measles shot as a child back in the 60s, you're probably gonna need a booster right now.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There's two levels of variability here. One is across different pathogens. Some pathogens are capsular and it's harder to get longer lasting antibody responses against what you need to get responses against. You just need to get boosted those infections, if you get them, maybe you get infections more recurrently with rhinoviruses or different coronaviruses. It's not like you get infected once in your life and then you never get that pathogen again.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Over time, maybe your immunity wanes for whatever reason. So there's differences across pathogens just based on their structure. Oh, there's also big differences.

[Gary O'Reilly]

When you say structure, you mean they're physical. How the molecules, whatever, connect.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. And how that primes your memory immune response to be either longer lasting or not.

[Chuck Nice]

Interesting.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But then there's also huge differences across people in the variability of both the potency of your immune response and the duration that it lasts. And you can't tell based on how you feel. And so there's two levels of variability there over population. It works great. But at any given person, for any given pathogen, you could see hugely different persisting antibody levels. 20, 30 years after vaccination.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I heard this saying, no medicine is good for anyone until it has been tested on everyone.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

There's some truth to that, right?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Absolutely.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So you can't test it on everyone because you have sample sizes, but if you test it on a thousand people and there's a one in a million reaction that someone might have to it, you won't know that in that sample of a thousand.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Which is the whole value of doing post marketing surveillance, which is done very surprisingly.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Surveillance. Come on, please. Post follow up.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Post marketing follow up.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We've got these databases looking out for signals of potential risk and if one pops up, you know, that's probably anecdotal, but it serves as the basis for a rigorous investigation that you go do then afterwards.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Got it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And so tell me, and just to end it here, tell me about the vaccine Adverse events reporting system, Effects reporting system.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There, there's.

[Gary O'Reilly]

What is that?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So it's exactly that type of monitoring system where we've tested these vaccines in this number of people. It looks good in that number of people. We're not going to test it in 300 million people before we release it. So you release it and you're getting safety signals. If the same thing starts to pop up over time, you say, well, we should go do a formal study. And look, if that's actually associated with.

[Gary O'Reilly]

The vaccine gives you an excuse to focus in.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right. For things that could be very rare, that you would never see in a typical clinical trial, even if you had 10,000, 20,000 people in the clinical study.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Because it's one in a million or one in 10 million.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right. And so there's some noise because these things are voluntarily reported. And sometimes things do happen by coincidence.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That's what the V stands for. Voluntary.

[Chuck Nice]

Look at that.

[Gary O'Reilly]

No, no, no. V stands for vaccine.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, Vaccine. Adverse event reporting system.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So this relies entirely on someone knowing it exists, logging on and typing in some effect.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So adverse effect.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's often healthcare providers who will log it, they'll say, the person got this vaccine.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, good. So they had this professional in the loop.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Very good to know that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But just because it's in the system doesn't mean it's necessarily related. It's a starting point for investigation and that's where it goes wrong. People will say, look how many reports there were in the system. But of course, what happens if you vaccinate 30 million children? Some of those children are going to have other things happen to them that are unrelated.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, that may be related, that might be related or they may not.

[Gary O'Reilly]

There's some rare other thing that gets time coincident with. And there's not a cause and effect.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And so it's critical to have to identify when there are true signals. You can't rely on it to show that vaccines are dangerous for xyz.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Right.

[Chuck Nice]

Yes.

[Dr. Knock]

Interesting.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Tell me if I'm wrong here. When the COVID vaccine arrived and it wasn't yet enough for everybody, so they did first responders and then teachers. I think that rollout felt sensible to me. All of us who remembered things like the polio vaccine and the smallpox vaccine fully expected that once you got that vaccine, you would never get Covid again. But that is not what happened. And then it's a new strain and there's new this. And then people got it twice. Some people got the same strain twice. So it seems to me that fact undermines certain people's confidence that that was either the right vaccine or an appropriate vaccine, or whether people even knew what they were talking about. We all know people who've had Covid three, four times. I was novid until like three months ago, I would say.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So I think this is a misalignment of Expectations versus reality. We know looking at other coronaviruses because there are seasonal coronaviruses that mostly now cause the common cold. People get reinfected all the time.

[Dr. Knock]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And so there's every reason to expect with a new coronavirus, you have immunity now. That doesn't totally preclude you from infection later.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, but if I had smallpox, I expect no smallpox.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right. And so there's huge variability across different pathogens.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Nobody told us that when the vaccine came out.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Exactly. So I think that's the shortfalling of communication. Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Did they know that that was something they could have communicated at the time, or was it still on the frontier of learning of the progress of the novelty of the virus?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There's a big part of that too, is being honest. And we don't know for sure yet. This is a new virus. Right now. If you get the vaccine, you're not going to get infected, or it's a 95% reduction in risk or your risk of severe disease is reduced by 90%. But how that will change three years from now, you can't be totally certain.

[Gary O'Reilly]

If they knew that, they needed to be honest about it, I think.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Because that's how science works. You know what you know at any given time and you give the best available information. So we want everyone to watch your postings. Dr. Knock.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Dr. Knock.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's Right. Dr. Noc.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And that's on TikTok. And are you call that also on Instagram?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

TikTok. Instagram, yep. Same name.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Excellent. Rising through three and a half million viewers. That should be 20 million viewers.

[Chuck Nice]

I think even more than that. We need it.

[Gary O'Reilly]

We need 330 million viewers.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's next time you come on the whole country.

[Chuck Nice]

The country.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Thanks for coming down. For.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Really appreciate the invitation. Enjoyed the discussion.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Live into my office. And it's good to know you're in arm's reach up there in Boston. Brookline is your town.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That's right. Right across the Charles River.

[Chuck Nice]

Why don't you just give the man's address?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Sorry.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I wear a disguise at all times outside of the recording studio so you'll never notice me.

[Gary O'Reilly]

All right, when we come back, Scott Hamilton Kennedy will tell us about his film, his documentary, Shot in the Ark.

[Dr. Knock]

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[Chuck Nice]

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[Gary O'Reilly]

On the subject of medical misinformation, we can't call that topic complete without venturing into the world of vaccine hesitancy. And there's one person who's at the front of that conversation, and it's my friend Scott Hamilton Kennedy. Scott, welcome to StarTalk.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Good to see you, Neil.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Hey, dude. You're a filmmaker.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

I am a filmmaker. Storyteller.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Documentary filmmaker. Storyteller. Because not all documentaries tell stories. They try just informational.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

They can be a little laundry listy.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, when you're laundry listed, it's less compelling, I find.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Agree. Agreed.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Because you know deeply, I'm guessing that people love to have stories told to them. And why.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

What's the origin of that?

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

I Would say. Yuval Harari said it so beautifully in his book Sapiens that he said that storytelling is the best tool we have available to us as human beings to get along, to agree to change things. He really put it into such an amazing context that it is the art of storytelling that we can use to convince each other to make this world a more functioning place.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So you made a film called Shot in the Arm, which I actually had something to do with.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

You did.

[Gary O'Reilly]

You invited me as a script consultant. Not that I am an expert on vaccines, but that I do think deeply about how people learn science and what may convince them one way or another. So thank you for inviting me.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

I would call you my mentor, sir, if I could.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So where did that film come from in your head?

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah. So I'll go all the way back to 2018. I was talking to a wonderful doctor, Dr. John Schwartzberg. Were viruses invented in 2018 yet in 2018? Well, you know Dr. John Swartzberg because we got to do another film together called Food Evolution. That was a reset of the conversation on GMOs. And Dr. John Swartzberg runs the Berkeley Wellness Letter, this fantastic letter out of Cal Berkeley that has doctors vet scientific information and then bring it back to the public in a consumable way, not dissimilar.

[Gary O'Reilly]

What do you say? Doctors vet the scientific information. It means they read the journals and bring journal information to the people so that people don't have to read the journals.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

That's right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

They're interpreted.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

It's wonderful. It's such a simple, beautiful, and very much of your world too, right? That you're a wonderful translator in a way of complicated science. And he said to me, scott, what's your next movie gonna be on? You should take on these anti vaxxers. This is fall 2018. And in my wisdom, I said, oh no, why would I need to touch them? They're gonna go away. They're gonna burn out. Genius as always. Cut to spring 2019 Record breaking measles outbreak. A state of emergency here in New York City in the Orthodox Jewish community.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Measles.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Measles outbreak.

[Gary O'Reilly]

After it had been declared defeated, we.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Were on the road to eliminating it. In 2000.

[Gary O'Reilly]

The World Health Organization, did they make these declarations?

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

That's right. That's my lazy research I did. When I saw the state of emergency in New York City is I did a little research and I saw that we were about to. To eliminate it 2000. So what the heck is going on here? Why would we have a state of emergency if we're so close. And I called Dr. Paul Offit, who's a big part of the upshot in the arm, and he said, scott, it's not very complicated, but it is nefarious that there are people out there that have become to be known as anti vaxxers who scare and convince parents to not vaccinate their children. And it's never a matter of if, it's going to be a matter of when. If you do lower those vaccine rates that you're gonna see a measles outbreak.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And measles has some among viruses, some like, unique. I don't know if it's unique, but.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

It'S highly, highly contagious.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Highly contagious.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

It can stay in a room, I think it's two hours after just floating in the air. Floating in the air. Yeah, it's that contagious. So that I thought was enough to begin a movie. And so I began this movie in 2019. My first day of shooting was at the CDC's ACIP meetings where they confirm the next vaccines that are coming out. And I had Paul Offit there and I had one of the top anti vaxxers there, Del Bigtree, who went on to be a dear friend of Robert Kennedy Jr. S, went on to be Robert Kennedy Jr. S communications director during his presidential run. But we'll come back to that. And I also filmed with Andrew Wakefield, a doctor who had his actually license taken away when his study was found to be that it was fraudulent and incorrect in trying to make a connection between autism and the MMR, measles, mumps and rubella vaccine. So we thought we had a pretty important movie and all of those elements. And then Covid happened and it went to another place where we had to film from lockdown. I included my family a little bit as like the all of us. And for a minute we thought the antis might, God forbid, go away when you have a once in a century pandemic. But they got stronger and more nefarious.

[Gary O'Reilly]

How does someone judge in your cinematic world whether or not your film is propaganda?

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Great. Vet it. Right? Vet it. Yeah. Look at the experts that I have in the film. Look at the scientific studies that we point out in the film. They put them right up on the screen. We have them on our website.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And I will add, the experts you do interview, they're not saying, listen to me, because I alone have this one answer.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Correct.

[Gary O'Reilly]

They're representing a scientific medical establishment.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Correct.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Right. And at some point we have to reclaim the importance of the Word establishment. Yeah, it's become a bad word. Are you from the establishment?

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

That's right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, that's bad. No, there's a reason why an establishment exists.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah. The level of cynicism is very, very depressing. But back to your point. Your question about the film. Vet the film. Don't take my word for it. Don't take the fact that I have the wonderful Neil DeGrasse Tyson as my executive producer, which is a great honor and should make them say, hey, if Neil vetted it, that should mean something. That's fine. But vet the film and vet the words coming out of the people we refer to as antis in the film.

[Gary O'Reilly]

It is true that most propaganda films don't invite you to vet it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's right.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

But again, that goes back to my. I'm trying to wrap it up.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

But the two tools that we could have on StarTalk's website on Black Valley Films website, on Shot in the Arms website.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Black Valley Films is your production.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

It's my production company. Thank you. Is that says, here are the tools we use for vetting. Right. They're right there. Here are the tools we use for vetting. And it's transparent.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So it needs to be more of.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

That and say, hey, you trying to poke a hole in me? Do you have those tools on your website?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So that empowers people to verify in some way or another. So, Scott, what does your film, shot in the Arm, have to say about our responsibility to each other? Because that seems to be deeper than just any conversation about medicine.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

It's a social contract. Contract, yeah. Tell me about that.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah, no, it's a great. It's a great point that the social contract became part of the film through a few different characters in the film that reminded me of it. I don't remember the last time I probably talked about it outside of making this film. Was it in grade school or something? So civics class. Yeah. A simple definition of the social contractor. These norms that are written or sometimes not written that have become norms. Don't drink and drive, Take out your trash, be a decent neighbor, be a good citizen in your community, don't harm your children, feed your children, all these different things. And vaccines could be. Is part of that, right. That you don't necessarily get a vaccine. You do get a vaccine to keep yourself safe, but sometimes you don't get a vaccine necessary for you to stay safe. You get a vaccine so you don't pass something on to somebody who's more vulnerable than you. And sadly, During COVID we saw it was building up long before COVID but during COVID we really saw kind of a bit of a disaster around our social contract that people leaned into what they would call freedom, but it's really a version of selfishness, I'm sorry to say. It's a tough word.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But. Wait, so you explored in the film that the original sort of anti vaxxers was a community deeply embedded in liberal voting factions.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yep.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And only under Covid was there a right leaning faction that were not so much anti pharma, which is the common battle cry in the left, but they were just pro freedom.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And so they're notion was, you can't inject me if I don't want you to.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

That's right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So why don't we just still allow that, but then deny them access to places where they could spread the disease?

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Or we could give them their own island. It's terribly cynical and maybe even mean, but if we had an island, all these people say, I want my freedoms. Don't tell me what drugs to take. Don't touch my food. I don't want my milk to be pasteurized. I don't want fluoride in my water. Okay, fine. Here's the island. You guys go start over again. I think somebody may have written a book that may have touched on this.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But not everything in that list is equal, of course. For example, if your water supply, your personal water supply, you remove the fluoride.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

No one else is affected by that.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

True.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But if you are not vaccinated and you catch the disease and you infect others, then they are affected.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Correct.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay, so not all the reasons why you might ship people to this island are equivalent.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

No, I just want to ship the ones I don't like. I didn't say that this was. I didn't say this was a kind decision, Neil. This is a frustrated. This is a decision.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay, so there's been a failure on the civics front, and that's what you're really getting at.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

An individual front that we do. We remember that there's a thing called the Social contract. Do we want to.

[Gary O'Reilly]

No, I never learned about it that way. But in fifth grade, I did have civics class.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

I don't think I even had civics class.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, I had a civics club. A button called you were in the civics club.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Nice.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And I might still have that button, actually. And we did things like we held elections and campaigning. People ran for president of the class and things that were microcosms of the Larger society. We didn't pretend someone had been vaccinated or had a disease, but it forced you to think about other people.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

That's it.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And maybe that was undervalued in the kindergarten through 12 curriculum.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

It might be another one of those things that we took for granted in a bad way. That we took for granted that we have these systems and maybe our kinder people in our family were making those systems work. If it was our grandparents who were. Or teacher gets to be polite or whatever the different things are.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Right. So how do we fix it?

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Again, not quickly. Let's start there. Not quickly. The quick part would be to say, is there a problem? I might make a comparison to alcohol and addiction. Right. We probably all have some family member that has been addicted to something like alcohol or a drug, and we wanted to help them. And we might want to say, stop, it's not going to work. What's the first step that's going to get them to actually go down the road admitting their addiction? So I think we're living through a time where people are not in the place to admit that they might have a problem about being cynical about science. They might have a problem about humility. They might have a problem with their relationship to the social contract. And we have to admit that problem.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah. If you're an alcoholic, you might go into therapy. Do you go into therapy if you're not admitting that science matters in your life?

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

But you usually don't go to. You usually don't go to therapy until you've admitted it. You don't go to dry out.

[Gary O'Reilly]

No occasion.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah, you might have an intervention. But besides the intervention, the first step has to be. And it's still even within intervention, they can leave the drug rehab place. Right. They have to admit that they have a problem. So can we as a society admit that we have a problem about cynicism? That we have a problem about selfishness? That we have a problem about what is expertise and who we should be listening to? That I think is.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, but you're the filmmaker and there's nothing more influential in American society than a well made film that everyone sees and is deeply affecting them.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Did you just take us in a time machine prior to social media? Yeah, I would agree with that statement, except for I love filming. They've been in, you know, after the.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Movie Ghost with, you know, Whoopi Goldberg and Demi Moore. And Demi Moore.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

After that film, polls on people's belief in ghosts went up.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

There you go.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Just because of the film.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That they somehow Made it more real because it was a story well told without question.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

And I.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So I'm just a scientist and you're the storyteller. You're the time honored storyteller.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Whose craft predates science.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Nice.

[Chuck Nice]

Nice.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Beautiful. The storytelling predates science. Yes. And I am an independent documentary filmmaker, so that's documentary filmmaker. And independent means that I'm a little bit on the outside.

[Gary O'Reilly]

What do you do if someone notices in your funding stream that you get money from like the enemy? You get money from pharma. And you're trying to say that pharma is good. Sure.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

I do everything in my power to not take money from a conflict of interest in the making of the film, in the distribution of the film. I don't care who gives me money because I finished the film and it's locked and it hasn't been influenced. But that's another. Just because there is a possible conflict of interest doesn't mean there is a conflict of interest.

[Gary O'Reilly]

People have come to assume it.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

That's right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

So Scott, we previously collaborated on a film, Food Evolution, which explored misinformation regarding genetically modified organisms.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

GMOs.

[Gary O'Reilly]

GMOs. And in both of these films you're exploring things that in the left leaning community, some of them hold sacred and you are dismantling some of their beliefs within this. And you had a phrase and I never remembered exactly what was it?

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

The limitation of well intentioned liberals.

[Gary O'Reilly]

The limitations of well intentioned liberals.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Where it's an idea that wants to be. They want to promote, then they overstep.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

That's right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

In what they think is true regarding the idea.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

That's right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But they think they're right.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah, but a confirmation bias. Rabbit hole.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And so this has been your, this is your thing.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

It's a piece of the pie. It was different prior to Covid because now then everything blew up and there was all sorts of people with their limitations of good intentions. But yes, I, as a born and raised die hard liberal, I came to question my liberal brothers and sisters through that lens. That it isn't just good intentions are not enough. You've got to have data, you have to have evidence, you have to have repeatability, you have to check yourself every so often. So yes, it's a.

[Gary O'Reilly]

My point was often the liberal left will declare that the conservative right is anti science right and they'll cite very obvious examples such as denial of climate change and in some cases denial of evolution. But the statement is made as though they're up on High looking down. Looking down. Whereas you part the curtains in the liberal community. You get things like homeopathic medicines, you get crystal healing, feather energy. You get these things. The only way you can embrace these ideas and philosophies is to reject the science that either comes from part or all of mainstream science that denies it.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

That's right.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And so that puts you in a weird place as a storyteller.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah. You did a beautiful thing on the poster for Food Evolution and you sign it saying, to Scott, who's not afraid of what is true.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Did I say that?

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

I may have forged it. Yeah. And I thought it was such a. It took me a little while actually, Neil, to come back to it and go, oh, that's what that means.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Because I'm not afraid of what is true. Right. I'm afraid of what's been manipulated.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah. It's a group think thing that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Or something you don't even know you're in a group thing or somebody lying to me. Right. Somebody tells me that the truth. I'm going to deal with the truth. Right. Somebody tells me something that's.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Can you handle the truth?

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

That's right. Somebody tells me something that's scary and it's not true. Oh my God. It's a disaster. Right. The truth is complicated enough. But to get back to like why I joked earlier about, could we have a beeper on our phone that says full of shit. Full of shit. Full of shit. Right. You know any of us, again, not political.

[Gary O'Reilly]

It's a bias alert.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

It's a bias alert. Wouldn't that be fantastic? Or God forbid, we seize like an engine. And I can't talk anymore. I'm so full of. My body stops functioning. Not me. Anyone.

[Gary O'Reilly]

When you say seize like an engine, you're referring to internal combustion engine.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Thank you very much.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Because electric engines don't seize.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Are there electric engines out there? Just kidding. Yes. Thank you. I was going old school.

[Gary O'Reilly]

All right. So thanks, Scott, for doing this little bit of conversation, exposing you to our loyal audiences.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

Love this answers.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And we're all here to try to make a better world using science as the tool. And now we have to include storytellers as part of that tool.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

I really appreciate it.

[Gary O'Reilly]

All right. This has been StarTalk Special Edition. I want to thank Dr. Knock and Scott Hamilton Kennedy for coming in for this recording. Neil Degrasse Tyson here as always, bidding. You keep looking up.

[Chuck Nice]

You know that feeling when someone shows up for you just when you need it most?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

I mean we all need that that's.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What Uber's all about, not just a.

[Chuck Nice]

Ride or dinner at your door. It's how Uber helps you show up for the moments that matter. Because showing up can turn a tough day around or make a good one even better. Whatever it is, big or small, Uber is on the way. So you can be on yours. Uber on our way.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

My name is.

[Scott Hamilton Kennedy]

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

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[Gary O'Reilly]

Relief means I can show up more.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

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