Food, Science, and Culture with Anthony Bourdain [Extended Cut]

Summary

StarTalk Radio Episode Summary: "Food, Science, and Culture with Anthony Bourdain [Extended Cut]"

Podcast Information:

• Title: StarTalk Radio
• Host: Neil deGrasse Tyson
• Guest: Anthony Bourdain
• Episode Release Date: November 29, 2024
• Description: A deep dive into the intersection of food, science, and culture through an extended conversation between astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson and acclaimed chef and TV host Anthony Bourdain.

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1. Introduction

In this extended conversation, Neil deGrasse Tyson sits down with Anthony Bourdain to explore the profound connections between food, culture, and scientific inquiry. This episode delves into Bourdain’s unique perspective on how cuisine reflects societal structures, historical contexts, and personal identities.

2. Food as a Reflection of Culture

Anthony Bourdain discusses his evolution from viewing food merely as sustenance to recognizing it as a mirror of culture and history.

[03:35] Anthony Bourdain: "I noticed that food was intensely personal, that it was a reflection of a place, of a culture, of a history, often a very painful history... people opened up to me and told me other things about their lives."

Bourdain emphasizes that food serves as a gateway to understanding deeper societal narratives, such as war, migration, and cultural clashes.

3. Experiences in Conflict Zones

A pivotal moment in Bourdain's career occurred during the filming in Beirut in 2006, where an unexpected military conflict forced him to reassess the purpose of his show.

[06:50] Anthony Bourdain: "Everything changed at that moment. And I started looking around and I was determined... it just struck me as obscene to contemplate ever doing an upbeat food show in a world that allows things like this to happen regularly."

This experience shifted Bourdain’s approach from purely showcasing culinary delights to integrating the harsh realities of the regions he visited, thereby deepening the show's narrative.

4. Antarctica: Food and Science

Bourdain shares his unique experience at McMurdo Station in Antarctica, highlighting the intersection of scientific research and daily life in one of Earth's most extreme environments.

[10:13] Anthony Bourdain: "It's the most incredible spot, a place of pure science and pure learning, where people are incrementally seeking answers to questions they might never answer in their life."

He describes the challenges of sourcing food in Antarctica, relying heavily on frozen and processed provisions, and the strict regulations to preserve the pristine environment.

5. Climate Change and Global Cuisine

The conversation shifts to the tangible impacts of climate change on global food systems. Bourdain highlights how altered ecosystems affect fish populations, agriculture, and, consequently, culinary practices.

[17:08] Anthony Bourdain: "Fish populations are changing, disappearing. ... chefs and cooks ... respond to what's available. That's always been the engine of cooking."

He underscores the importance of adaptability in the culinary world as traditional food sources become scarce due to environmental shifts.

6. The Role of Science in Cooking: Molecular Gastronomy

Bourdain explores the burgeoning field of molecular gastronomy, discussing its benefits and challenges within the culinary arts.

[26:12] Anthony Bourdain: "Wiley Dufresne ... says, look, in my restaurant, we ask questions... Can I deep fry mayonnaise? Answer yes."

He appreciates chefs who blend scientific techniques with culinary creativity but criticizes those who prioritize spectacle over substance.

7. Laboratory-Grown Meat: A Culinary Perspective

The future of meat production is debated, with Bourdain expressing reservations about laboratory-grown meat.

[42:38] Anthony Bourdain: "The thought horrifies me as a chef... we're talking meat... it's the interconnected viscera, muscle and fat... Laboratory grown meat would be a solution, but ... it's a surrender."

He contemplates the loss of traditional butchery and the cultural rituals surrounding meat preparation and consumption.

8. Personal Anecdotes and Preferences

Bourdain shares personal stories and preferences, including his aversion to Swiss culture and specific culinary experiences that shaped his career.

[49:16] Anthony Bourdain: "I've been 120 countries and I haven't been to Switzerland because I'm afraid... I can't watch those. Oh, dude, I'm gonna start twitching."

His candidness offers listeners a glimpse into the personal motivations and dislikes that influenced his global culinary explorations.

9. Future Endeavors and Final Thoughts

In the concluding segments, Bourdain reflects on his bucket list and the challenges of accessing certain regions due to safety concerns. The conversation touches on the existential threats posed by global warming, with Tyson providing scientific insights.

[45:16] Anthony Bourdain: "I'd advise against my granddaughter buying beachfront property in Uruguay."

[46:57] Neil deGrasse Tyson: "It's a matter of not just will the water level inch its way up and one day you'll just pack up and leave. It's the storm that previously didn't breach your property and then does. And when it breaches, it's catastrophic to everything you own."

The episode wraps up with mutual appreciation for each other's work, highlighting the blend of science and culinary arts as vital tools for understanding and navigating the complexities of our world.

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Notable Quotes:

• Anthony Bourdain on Food and Culture:
  "[03:35]... food was intensely personal, that it was a reflection of a place, of a culture, of a history..."

• Bourdain on Beirut Incident:
  "[06:50]... everything struck me as obscene to contemplate ever doing an upbeat food show in a world that allows things like this to happen..."

• Bourdain on Climate Change Impact:
  "[17:08]... chefs and cooks ... respond to what's available. That's always been the engine of cooking."

• Bourdain on Molecular Gastronomy:
  "[26:12]... Can I deep fry mayonnaise? Answer yes."

• Bourdain on Laboratory-Grown Meat:
  "[42:38]... The thought horrifies me as a chef... it's a surrender."

• Bourdain on Fear of Switzerland:
  "[49:16]... I've been 120 countries and I haven't been to Switzerland because I'm afraid..."

• Tyson on Climate Change Consequences:
  "[46:26]... it's the storm that previously didn't breach your property and then does. And when it breaches, it's catastrophic to everything you own."

---

This episode offers a rich exploration of how food intertwines with cultural identity, scientific discovery, and global challenges. Anthony Bourdain's insights, paired with Neil deGrasse Tyson's scientific perspective, provide listeners with a multifaceted understanding of the role cuisine plays in reflecting and shaping our world.

Transcript

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

This episode of StarTalk we have a one on one interview between me and chef and TV host Anthony Bourdain. I had the privilege of sitting down with Anthony before his untimely death in 2018 to talk about Antarctica, food, culture and so much more. You can hear pieces of this conversation in a different episode from our archives, but never before have we released that conversation in its entirety until now. Check it out. Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. Startalking begins right now. So Anthony, thanks for coming back to StarTalk. You were one of our earliest guests.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Like five years ago.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes, thanks for helping us out back then.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Happy to do it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So tell me how you came to think about food and culture. Most people think of food as simply sustenance and we don't even spend any generally any thought at all that what we're eating is a function of our own culture. It's just the food that's on the table. And so for you to rise up above that, see the world and say, this food is that culture, that food is that culture, when did that begin?

[Anthony Bourdain]

I think that was a process. I mean, I started out making a show about food in places around the world, but it was essentially one scene after another of me shoving food in my face. I guess it became fairly quickly apparent that food was intensely personal, that it was a reflection of a place, of a culture, of a history, often a very painful history, you know, of war, migration, intermarriage. The clash of culture is also a very personal expression. I noticed as well that people were very proud of their food, often people very different than me, often people who had no particular reason, culturally or politically, to like Americans, yet at the table, given the opportunity to feed me and the fact that I received that food gratefully and with an open mind, I noticed that people opened up to me and told me other things about their lives.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So, you know, we all have food, and it's the consequence of whatever, but generally we don't think about it. And so what happens when you're in a place where there's more going on than just what came out of the kitchen?

[Anthony Bourdain]

Well, I think the most extreme and maybe the most important example in the trajectory of my show is Beirut in 2006, when we were doing what was ostensibly still a food and travel show. We'd finished shooting very travelogue. Yeah, well, we finished shooting another, you know, sort of upbeat, snarky, maybe restaurant scene. And the crew joined me in my room for beers from the mini bar. And we're looking lazily out the window, and rockets and gunships attack the airport, blowing it to smithereens. Our local crew disappears for the border, and we found ourselves in a war, blockaded, unable to leave, and trapped in Beirut for the next week or so, waiting to be evacuated by the US Military. Yeah, the Marine Corps, the Navy and Marines took us off the beach in LCUs dramatic at an LCU filled with wailing, crying refugees, most Lebanese who had left the country during the civil war and only just returned to rebuild. To rebuild. And now their hopes and dreams smashed again. And just looking out at the water as we pulled away from the beach and thinking, do we have a show? Because we really just sort of filmed ourselves sweating it out in quarantine while neighborhoods were vaporized around us, it just struck me as obscene to contemplate ever doing a upbeat food show in a world that allows things like this to happen regularly.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So this was a pivot point.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Absolutely.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

For you.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Everything changed. Everything changed at that moment. And I started looking around and I was determined. You know, if I'm sitting in the hills of Laos, you know, I'm going to ask the obvious question when my host is missing a limb. Where'd you lose a limb? And we're eating. True, but chances are he's going to tell me, well, I was alive for the secret war here, but your military was kind enough to leave behind a few million tons of unexploded ordnance that I happen to step on one of those. CNN fortunately has allowed me to wander completely away from the table. And so we've done shows in places like Congo where there was never any expectation of much in the way of food scenes. I went there entirely because I was obsessed with the history of the Belgian Congo.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And you sure CNN just didn't need another correspondence?

[Anthony Bourdain]

I have the luxury of not being a. And you know, I joke that it's a stealth food show because I think people open up to me and tell me about their lives. Often in places where they have to be careful about what they say. And I think they do that or I've noticed that they do that because I'm asking simple questions. We're just eating. We're just eating. I'm not pressing them for what do you think of your government or your government's policy on this or that. I'm asking them simple things.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What.

[Anthony Bourdain]

What do you like to eat? What makes you happy? What would you like for your children? And asking those simple questions, I often get very, very complicated, very revealing answers.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Tell me about Antarctica. What's going on there?

[Anthony Bourdain]

Oh man.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What are you up to? I got people in Antarctica.

[Anthony Bourdain]

I was so fortunate to spend time there and I had the most incredible time. It's another planet. It feels like another planet. On one hand everyone should go and see it. On the other hand, it kind of defeats a purpose. It is the last un effed up place on earth. It's pristine. Every drop of urine goes into bottles then into 55 gallon drums and shipped back to America along with ever or elsewhere with every little bit of waste. Not allowed to bring the people down there. We stayed at McMurdo Station, the former military base now the National Science NSF.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

National Science Foundation.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yeah, Research center. We were guests of the NSF and very grateful ones at that. It's very difficult to get to do even people who work there. It's very difficult to do what we.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Did, just to be clear, at least in my field, it's a ripe place for research. It is, because first, the sky conditions are spectacular when they're clear. And though you are on level ground, it's actually very high elevation relative to sea level. And so for telescopes, you're above a lot of the muck and mire that can interfere with your observations. And there are also interesting air circulation patterns for balloons where you can ascend detectors to measure the cosmic microwave background, for example.

[Anthony Bourdain]

It's incredible because you have all these people working at McMurdo Base, and like, the dishwashers are all, like, former professors of Russian lit or smart, smart, curious outcasts from all over the world who've come to work in maintenance and physical jobs so that they could be in Antarctica living under incredibly difficult conditions. But you'll see, like, astrophysicists sitting at the table talking to guys who work in waste disposal, engaged in a conversation about neutrinos. They do lectures, science lectures every Sunday that the whole base everyone goes to. It is the most incredible spot, a place of pure science and pure learning, where people are incrementally seeking answers to questions they might never answer in their life. They're just looking to move things forward. So we met with the guys with a super telescope, part of an array, I guess, that goes around the entire globe. It's looking at the sun, some people collecting neutrinos, which I don't really fully understand. No, I don't understand at all, but they sound really cool.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, just a quick thing, because in Antarctica, you get 24 hours of sunlight for six months.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Oh, yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Continuously monitor the sun. It doesn't set for you, and you have to wait. Oh, my gosh. Did something happen to the sun in the last 12 hours? You will know under the sun, people.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Who love it down there who've been going for 26 seasons to 30 seasons.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So what do they eat? They gotta ship in the steaks and the vegetables.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Everything comes in mostly by ship, but some stuff by plane. There's a cafeteria both at McMurdo and at the South Pole, where everything is essentially processed, frozen.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Frozen. Really?

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yeah. And, you know, one of the refrains when you arrive from the people who spent months there is, do you have any freshies? It's like the living dead. Do you have brains? They're like, do you have any freshies? You could sell an avocado down there, a fresh avocado for some big bucks. Along with. I asked everybody, what do you want the most? What do you Miss the most. And they said if I could just pet a puppy for a minute, I'd give you my month's drinking allowance.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Pet a puppy?

[Anthony Bourdain]

You just hold a puppy for a little bit. Because there are no dogs, no pets. Of course we're allowed there because they might bring some kind of bacteria or viruses that would affect the penguins and the. Oh, right, right. You don't want to mix the farm. No foreign species or anything like that. So there's a real premium on the rare arrival of lettuce or avocados or anything fresh. But they do a lot with a little.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And so that was. Was that your first sort of baptism into a community of scientists?

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yes, for sure. And the things people were looking at were really interesting. I mean, penguin. One guy had been studying penguin populations for, for decades, living with one particular group. So do they eat penguins? I mean, no.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I mean, why not?

[Anthony Bourdain]

Bird Ahmanson and Scott did. It was not their first choice, but okay. I mean, it has been done. But they do not. You don't even. You're not supposed to pick up rocks, interfere with the terrain or what life there is there in any way. And they don't. There's not a single cigarette butt on McMurdo base on the ground. I mean, everything is separated. Very strict living conditions. I found it interesting when going out to visit the penguin colonies, though, we were on a helicopter out to the site and a bunch of fresh faced, very enthusiastic kids who'd come down to help out an intern, I guess was go out and hug the penguin day. They were all excited that they go out and get to tag penguins and, you know, hold one. You know, penguins are cute. You know you in all the movies. Yeah, well, they didn't tell them that, you know, when you pick up a penguin, they spray you with, you know, a horrifying array of, you know, wet diarrhea. They all came back rather downcast looking and smelling a bit RIP.

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[Anthony Bourdain]

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

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[Anthony Bourdain]

And I support StarTalk on Patreon.

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This is StarTalk with Nailed Grass Tyson.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

In your world travels, have you seen any consequences or concerns that local populations have about the effect of climate change on their crops, their foodstuffs, their supply chain?

[Anthony Bourdain]

Many places. First, I want to mention that the climate change discussion is no more acutely felt, at least in people's minds, or observed it in Antarctica, where they're really looking at it and talk about it a lot. But of course it's perilous now to talk about it because everyone is fully aware that their data is being deleted from government computers, that if they find themselves on a blacklist of people who might possibly be interested in the subject, that they could find themselves suddenly not needed. These are not good times for science or scientists, and they felt very much under threat down there, and for good reason, particularly when you're pursuing subjects that aren't going to have a useful monetary application anytime soon. Tough argument to make in this political climate, but I see it. Look, I see it everywhere. Madagascar, where timbering and the smoke of burning fires is causing huge, huge, huge problems, completely changing the landscape. The fishing industries everywhere affected the Caribbean, where I've seen in my own lifetime, not just whole reefs, all the reefs bleached and lifeless now. I mean, I'm seeing the physical changes, but the people who really seem to feel it most and notice it, are farmers, fishermen. They're feeling it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So this would affect cuisine directly?

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt about it. Fish populations are changing, disappearing. The whole inter. The whole relationship between species seems to be altering in small ways so that some species are thriving, others disappearing. That changes what we eat. Chefs and cooks and anybody who needs to feed their family responds to what's available. That's always been the engine of cooking.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Your experience in Antarctica, that's the closest thing we have on Earth to the surface of Mars?

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yes. In fact, I went to the Dry Valleys, which are an incredible area of Antarctica where there's no snow and no ice and it looks like Mars. And they, in fact, test the Mars rover there. I stayed in the tent out there for a while, and there was even a beach.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So does this make you more or less interested in possibly being on a mission to Mars?

[Anthony Bourdain]

I don't know if I have the time.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Busy guy.

[Anthony Bourdain]

The travel time to Mars is what.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Nine months on a good orbit?

[Anthony Bourdain]

It's a long trip.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So you need a good movie account on the Internet.

[Anthony Bourdain]

And I did an episode of Top Chef at NASA headquarters once. And we were talking about food in space. And, of course, your entire taste perception, I was told I was talking to, I think, Chuck Yeager, actually.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The Chuck Yeager? Yes.

[Anthony Bourdain]

And talking about what you crave, you know, when you've been away from, you know, your favorite restaurants for. Or any restaurants for a considerable amount of time. And he talked about how your ability to perceive flavors changes at altitude. People experience this in planes, of course. Plane food is altered so that it makes up for the effects of altitude. But astronauts get it really bad. And the stuff they crave more than anything, so Mr. Yeager told me, is hot sauce like Tabasco or anything spicy, because up there, everything tastes bland.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So you're telling me those bulky areas in their spacesuits, they're smuggling bottles of.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Hot sauce on the way up to.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Bring to their food. The astronauts I've spoken to, they say this without hesitation, that they eagerly want spicy foods. And they find themselves visiting other national modules of the space station, where their food tends to be spicier than their American food.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yeah, so that would be tough for me. Bland food. For nine months, I went to. I trained in jiu jitsu, and I foolishly decided I was going to compete a few times. And in the run up to the competition, I had to cut weight to make my weight category, which meant doing without salt at all for a week.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So you don't retain the water.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yeah, it's horrible. It is horrible. No matter how much I eat. I mean, I boil the whole chicken loaded with herb and pepper and everything I could, but never satisfied. And I would just get crazier and crazier from the lack of salt to the point that I found myself sitting on the subway in the summer looking at a particularly sweaty homeless dude and thinking I'd like to lick his neck. Just one lick.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That is fascinatingly gross.

[Anthony Bourdain]

But. But a measure of how desperate I was.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So we won't put you on the Mars.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yeah, Mars. Yeah. Too much.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We'll keep you here. So for those who do take these missions, is there some food category around the world where you would highly recommend that's what they should take with them?

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yeah, if you ranked it well.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Give me the top five cuisines or national dishes.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Trinidad food from Trinidad. That would go over real well.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That would go far.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Nice and spicy. Some good scotch barbecue.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'll get some of these halfway to Mars.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yeah, you know, Thai food, good nuclear hot Thai food would be a good choice. Chengdu, the Sichuan, the real Sichuan food now, I don't know, a big wok filled with boiling oil laced with Sichuan peppers and the long chili pods, I don't know how that would behave without gravity. Probably not the best thing in a gravity free environment. Scalding oil beating up and floating around freely. But. And there is the. That tends to inspire some digestive anomalies. But that would satisfy, I assure you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So I ate at an authentic Szechuan restaurant in San Francisco recently and I was waiting for the next dish to be some reprieve from the previous dish. And that did not happen. Every single dish was hotter than the previous one.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Even in Chengdu, the major city in Sichuan province or where I've been a few times, you'll see locals at their favorite Sichuan hot pot place, literally doubled over, holding their stomachs, mopping, mopping their necks, faces beet red. It can be excruciatingly painful. And this is an interesting scientific phenomenon that's always intrigued me. A lot of people suggest that their favorite Sichuan hot pot, that they secretly lace it with opium. Because what happens is they eat this scorchingly hot food. Very uncomfortable to eat, but intensely pleasurable. And the next day they wake up with a craving. And I find this as well when I'm eating really, really, really spicy food. And some have suggested that this is due to. There's this flood of endorphins that your brain releases when experiencing really painful, painfully hot food. And I guess that happens while you're eating it, and the next morning it's not there, and you feel this sudden withdrawal, the absence. The absence of that endorphin rush that you had the night before. And this immediately compels you to get more. I've had this experience after tattoos as well. I've had a lot of people who've gotten tattooed and, like me, say that right afterwards, they always want another, which seems counterintuitive.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

This is good because I don't have any. So maybe if I should stay that way.

[Anthony Bourdain]

So I'd be interested in knowing the SoC on that. If this is.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah, we'll get to the bottom of that.

[Anthony Bourdain]

It's a real craving. No matter how scorching the experience, you wake up the next day.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I want more. Your modern professional life is so committed to food and culture, yet there's a branch of the culinary universe that seems to focus on molecular.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Molecular gastronomy. Yes. Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Am I correct in characterizing that as, how can I bring as much science as I possibly can to the protein molecules and the freezing and the cooking times? Does this subtract the experience from you or add to it?

[Anthony Bourdain]

It depends. I know a few chefs who are really, really great at this, and they're like scientists. I was just talking to Wiley Dufresne, one of the real masters of this area of cooking, and he says, look, in my restaurant, we ask questions. We're asking questions about food and the dining experience. They're not necessarily looking to dazzle or to challenge their diners. They're asking questions like, can I deep fry mayonnaise? Answer yes. Also, I'm sorry.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I would have never in my whole life.

[Anthony Bourdain]

That is a. Not that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm sorry. I would never thought that once he.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Figured out how to deep fry mayonnaise, he figured out how he could fry other sauces, how to cause them to stay essentially solid, solid and not explode when you throw into hot fat. Ferran, Adria, Wiley Dufresne, and a very few other chefs make this experience intensely pleasurable and exciting and fun. Many other imitators, it is a long, painful slog through one of their meals where it's a science class for its own sake. You know, look, I can. Look what I can do.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so you're comfortable thinking. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you're comfortable. That seems like you're comfortable thinking of it as, there is this virtual country called science, and here's food that natives of that country might eat because they're simply curious about the chemistry of what they dine upon. And that would be their story relative to some invading army or some food shortage or something else.

[Anthony Bourdain]

They're asking themselves constantly, what's possible? What could we do with that mayonnaise?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Somebody figured out you could put ice cream batter mixed with liquid nitrogen and have instant ice cream.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And that was one of my early thoughts. I just didn't have access to liquid nitrogen at the time.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Or expand foie gras into. I don't know how it's done, but into a fluffy sponge like texture. I've seen so many amazing, amazing things done. Meat glue, which never even asked me to explain. They can really make food behave in ways that you wouldn't think it would or maybe even should. Who would have thought to delicious effect.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Who would have thought that they would behave, would ever appear in a sentence on food?

[Anthony Bourdain]

Well, you know, what is it when you scramble an egg? I forget what it's called. The coagulation of proteins. I'm not sure about the specific processes, but we're all caramelization. Why does your steak get brown as you cook it and develop the sugars on the outside. All of these things are essential scientific techniques or processes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There's a science reason for that.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Every cook understands instinctively. They may not be able to name what's happening, but they understand very, very, very well. When you know the effect you want, how to get there, when it's going wrong, when it's going right. So even something as simple as scrambling an egg is essentially a scientific manipulation of an ingredient. By exposing it to both heat and movement and incorporating air, you're making it behave and egg behave in the desired way.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It reminds me. This is an obscure analogy, but it reminds me of when medicine became modern. It did so because, in part, it looked to see what sort of folk remedies existed around the world and cultures. Oh, you chew on this bark and that gets rid of your headache. Well, what got rid of your headache? So you find out what's in the bark, and there's this molecule that becomes what we today call aspirin. And so you extract the active ingredient, and then you can exploit that to great gain. And so it seems to me if you knew exactly the moment and why a sauteed onion becomes sweet, you can possibly hone in on that and exploit that fact with other foods.

[Anthony Bourdain]

And that's what chefs are doing. Some chefs are doing every day. I have friends who are rotting all varieties of things in some dark corner of their cellar, experimenting, talking to microbiologists from major universities, talking to them late at night, working with them in kitchens, discussing the wonders of fermentation. What can you ferment? What's going on in Miso? How can I apply that to something else? So much of food is not about freshness. It's what's called that sweet spot. The precise moment in its decay where it is best. Sushi being the best example. Anyone who comes and tells you that, you know, oh, I went to a sushi bar last night, it was the best of fish, was so fresh. I have no understanding at all of sushi. Sushi is not about freshness at all. First of all, even the best places deliberately cure their fish by freezing it. Sometimes out of necessity to kill the critters, others because it makes it better. But it's almost never about the freshest fish. Fresh fish is right out of the water, is still in rigor and it's rubbery. Often most fish off rubbery and unpleasant and without much flavor. Which is why in Iceland they rot it sometimes because you get more fun. You're looking for the perfect point in the decay of the fish. Same with meat. Almost everything we eat and like cheese, meat, fish, they're all aged just wine. So it's really about decay and rot and death. As cheerful as that sounds.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Damn, I never knew.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Thank you. I mean fresh tuna right out of the water. No self respecting Japanese wants that. They want it just right. After more days than you probably want to know.

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[Anthony Bourdain]

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Good burger.

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[Anthony Bourdain]

Well, you talk about bark and, you know, I was in the jungle in Peru and I tried ayahuasca with the shame in there. The also known as. I guess it's a. It's like yahe, they also call it. It's a psychedelic jungle root used as a curative in traditional medicine.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

How do you ingest it?

[Anthony Bourdain]

The doctor, so to speak, brews a liquid out of it. Just put one particular root, often mixed with others, and administers it, often drinking it, almost always, in my experience, drinking it himself. And you're supposed to get in touch with your spirit animal and it's supposed to cure any variety of ills, both psychological and physical. And, you know, I have friends who claim it's solved a lot of personal problems for them after repeated controlled use in groups.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Emphasis on controlled use.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yes. I believe it's a legal form of therapy in some states. I know there are organized groups who do it. It's a rather extraordinary thing.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's an odd fact that in the history of our relationship with plant life, people have either tried to eat it, smoke it, extract it, drink it. I'm just intrigued that we just. We feel this urge.

[Anthony Bourdain]

I think primitive man had a lot of free time, you know, and. And they were hungry also.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

They didn't have the Internet or anything.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Right? Yeah. You know, when you're hungry and living in harsh conditions. I mean, to some extent, Chinese food is an extension of this. When you don't have the luxury of fat steaks at the supermarket, you really have to make the most of everything you've got. And if anything, Chinese food is the story of people figuring out relentlessly over thousands of years, figuring out not just everything that could possibly be good and how to cook it, as well as how to take things that aren't particularly good, and through application of heat and time and technique, making that good. So chicken feet or pig's tails might not seem like they're good, but in the hands of a great cook, they certainly can be.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The fact that the very phrase, it's a matter of taste means I might like something that you don't, and vice versa. So what does it even mean for you to have a show to talk about what's good and what isn't? How does that work?

[Anthony Bourdain]

It is completely subjective. I mean, they say that all food tastes are acquired or learned, that they are not. I mean, babies will eat rotten food if their mothers say, this is good. I think bitter babies, at least in this country, react to negatively.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Hence, no vegetables. Yeah.

[Anthony Bourdain]

I never say. I never evaluate food on the show anymore. I don't use adjectives anymore. I never say I have background notes of minerality. Does this help anyone in any way? I say, wow, this is really good, or sure about that, but it's entirely subjective.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Are there certain regions of the world where the taste buds genetically don't taste some things versus others, and so the food reflects this?

[Anthony Bourdain]

I'm not sure. I know that it won out of a certain one out of a small group of people will not detect certain flavors at all. At all. Or certain elements of popular, commonly eaten foods.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, if they become a colony, they could end up creating dishes that would be offensive to those who taste that, who have the capacity to taste it, and they don't, and therefore, it's just fine to them.

[Anthony Bourdain]

I think one of the things that's prevented the Philippines from taking their rightful place as a major world cuisine, beloved by everybody on every corner. I mean, Thai food is widely loved and appreciated. Sichuan food, as spicy as it is. But I think Filipino food has been less quick to spread. And I think that's because, my guess, they like an element of bitterness. And in fact, in the Philippines, they will use bile to add that very important note to some of their traditional dishes. And that's a taste that Americans, I think, instinctively recoil from in a way that they just simply do not. That's a treasured component. We have textural predilections and aversions that seem innate or at least are so deep in our culture. America, we love anything crispy. You know, anything covered in batter and crispy, we're gonna love better. We don't even need anything inside the batter. We'll eat the batter. But when you get into that chewy, rubbery, gelatinous, you know, boiled chicken skin, fish skin, abalone, a lot of things that they really love in tendon in China, tendon, Japan tendon. Beef tendon's great. It's fantastic. But look at you. I mean, that's. Most Americans go, oh, dude, no tendon. Those are major ingredients in Vietnam, China, Japan, and those are textures that they're very comfortable with and in fact they prize them. Whereas where right away, I'm not sure.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, just a quick excursion here. We joke a lot in America about some countries that like eat dog or things that we otherwise identify as pets. Could you. Do you have any insights into such aversions psychologically?

[Anthony Bourdain]

I mean, I know that pigs are. I think pigs are smarter than dogs. Right. But I grew up with dogs as pets and I think of them as pets. So it's something I've managed to gracefully avoid eating for my entire career. 17 years traveling around the world eating. I've managed to avoid offers of dog at every turn and will try to do so for the rest of my life. But it is a completely arbitrary thing. It is hypocritical of me, I grant you, to eat and love pig on one hand and spare poochie where, you know, they are eaten in parts of the world. And I am instinctively appalled. But it is a random culturally imperialistic feeling on my part, you know, but I mean, it's a very deeply felt one.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Any thoughts on the future of sort of laboratory grown proteins to simulate meat so that you don't ever have to kill an animal?

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yeah, I mean, I think laboratory grown meat, the thought horrifies me as a chef, as a cook, as somebody who's passionate.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You still get to cook it. You just want to kill the animal.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yeah, but I mean, we're talking meat like, aren't we? I mean, so much of meat is textural. It is the interconnected viscera, muscle and. And fat. And what makes meat interesting is the degree of exercise, its diet. What you prize in beef is the marbling, the ripple of fat through lean that comes from movement. Presumably your laboratory grown meat will not have moved at any point, but I suspect given it's out of pasture now, the cube, given the way the world is going, we might well have to eat laboratory grown meat soon, if not our neighbors.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I think the first round of it will be ground meat.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Might replace hamburger meat, which you're not in search of. The marbling and the textures and the. Oh, well, not as much as the T bone or the ribeye.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Well, not as much. Right, right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's all I'm saying. That might be its first, but that could completely transform your world.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Yes. And look, a lot of the world. Not your world, not only your world, the world. Look, there are a lot of hungry people in this world for whom a single chicken is a life or death thing. They need protein. And I guess Laboratory grown meat would be a solution. But we've given up on something really fundamental that goes when we move to laboratory grown meat, when any culture does, it's a surrender. We're shutting ourselves off to something that goes back to the beginning of human civilization. In fact, it's likely it was the beginning of human civilization. The fire and a hunk of meat. You know, it was the first time people probably cooperated. You know, I'll kill the animal, you drag it back to the fire, you build the fire, and then we're all sitting around figuring out how we're going to divide up this thing. That's kind of the beginning of any kind of organized society, according to some scienticians.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Do you have any question you might have of me, I as an astrophysicist or any questions you've harbored in your life about the universe, this would be the time to ask.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Well, it's a global warming question. If I was thinking of buying some waterfront real estate, beachfront property in Uruguay, I've been told that it would be okay for me and probably for my daughter, but I'd advise against my granddaughter buying beachfront property in Uruguay. Would you concur?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, I would say not a good thing at all.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Really.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'll tell you why. Because it's one thing for the sea levels to rise and you'll say, all right, I'll put my house here and I got, you know, 20 years before the sea level goes up 4 inches. Okay, that's one way to think about it. Another way to think about it is the storm that used to come only once a century now comes once a decade. And that storm involves a tide surge. And so that 4 inches that you're just comparing to sea level is now 4 inches on a tide surge and you completely flood your house. So on that one storm, just as what happened in lower Manhattan here with Hurricane Sandy.

[Anthony Bourdain]

So if I hear you correctly, you're advising against the purchase of beachfront property anywhere.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm saying get the hell out of. Unless you have no descendants or you don't care about your descendants. Yeah, it's a matter of not just will the water level inch its way up and one day you'll just pack up and leave. It's the storm that previously didn't breach your property and then does. And when it breaches, it's catastrophic to everything you own.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Wow, what a Debbie Downer. Really harsh mind buzz.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So that's how you first experience the effects of the global warming. It's the simple storm that is now a few inches higher than it once was. And the town or the municipality had built the flood wall. They built the for the once in a hundred year storm. And now it's once in 10 years. And then you have a storm that's now the once in a thousand year storm. You didn't even know that existed because you didn't have a town there a thousand years ago.

[Anthony Bourdain]

So yeah, I don't know. I had a Nazi cyborg question, but I think I'll save that for the next time around.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What haven't you eat yet and where haven't you been to do so.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Wow. You know, there is nothing on my bucket list as far as food off the top of my head. There are countries I haven't been to. But at this point, really if I haven't been there and want to go there, it's for security reasons. I mean I've wanted to go to Yemen for a long time. That's obviously not a safe option at this point. Syria, doesn't look like I'm going to make that anytime soon. Afghanistan, we come close every year, but insurance companies are a little uncomfortable. Kashmir, I'd like to go very much. I've never been to Switzerland really, but I will tell you I have, that is by choice. I have a deep psychological, inexplicable terror of all things Swiss. I don't know why, but I'm afraid of Switzerland. I think it was some forgotten childhood incident. Repeated viewings of sound and music. I'm not kidding you. I really creeped out by chalet architecture. Cuckoo clocks, Snow covered peaks, cuckoo clocks, lederhosen, alpine vistas. No joke. I mean, I know it sounds funny and it is kind of a joke, but I've been well over.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Is that why you're wearing a Timex watch and not a Swiss watch?

[Anthony Bourdain]

I mean I've been well over. I've been 120 countries and I haven't been to Switzerland because I'm afraid.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Wow. Okay. We all have phobias, I guess.

[Anthony Bourdain]

You're Swiss phobic yodeling. That is the sound of terror.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And it's Ricola, the throat candy.

[Anthony Bourdain]

I can't watch those. Oh, dude, I'm gonna start twitching.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Congratulations at 23 Emmy nominations over the life of the show. Oh my gosh.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Thank you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

A Peabody. I mean that's. This is what anyone who creates TV for love and for art. That's what anybody wants. And so just congratulations on that. Thank you very much and may you have many, many more seasons.

[Anthony Bourdain]

Thanks.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Doing this Hope you enjoyed that one on one conversation with Anthony Bourdain. Neil DeGrasse Tyson here for StarTalk. As always, I bid you to keep looking up.

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Good Burger.

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Apple Intelligence.