Into The Matrix with Laurence Fishburne

Summary

StarTalk Radio Episode Summary: "Into The Matrix with Laurence Fishburne"

Podcast Information:

• Title: StarTalk Radio
• Host: Neil deGrasse Tyson
• Guest: Laurence Fishburne
• Episode Release Date: January 7, 2025
• Description: In this episode, astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson engages in an in-depth conversation with acclaimed actor Laurence Fishburne. They explore Fishburne's illustrious career, delve into the scientific and philosophical underpinnings of "The Matrix," and discuss broader themes related to science fiction, reality, and the human condition.

---

1. Introduction and Early Career Reflections

Neil deGrasse Tyson (NDT) welcomes his guest, Laurence Fishburne (LF), expressing pride in his long-standing friendship.

• Neil:
  “This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist. And today we are joining a one on one exclusive conversation with someone whom I'm proud to call my friend, Laurence Fishburne Lawrence.”
  [01:22]

Laurence shares his early experiences with the Hayden Planetarium and his initial foray into acting.

• LF:
  “I wanted to live here too, but I wasn't that good in science. I liked it, but I wasn't that good.”
  [02:27]

Discussion Highlights:

• Apocalypse Now:
  LF recounts auditioning for a role at age 14 by lying about his age, leading to his casting as a young sailor.

  • LF:
    “I was playing a 17 year old.”
    [04:25]

• CSI Role:
  LF discusses his portrayal of a pathologist in the original "CSI: Las Vegas," emphasizing how the show made science appealing and relatable.

  • NDT:
    “They made science sexy.”
    [06:58]

---

2. Deep Dive into "The Matrix"

Transition to discussing one of Fishburne's most iconic roles in "The Matrix."

• LF:
  “And then of course, this little, little thing I did called the Matrix.”
  [11:02]

Key Topics Explored:

• Religious and Mythological Themes:
  NDT draws parallels between Neo’s journey and Christian mythology, highlighting themes of salvation and sacrifice.

  • NDT:
    “The One. That's the one, right? All right. He's the savior, Right?”
    [23:25]

  • LF:
    “That's Jesus all day.”
    [28:01]

• Scientific Accuracy and Critique:
  The conversation critically examines the scientific aspects portrayed in "The Matrix," particularly the concept of humans as batteries and the laws of thermodynamics.

  • NDT:
    “If you have a certain amount of energy here, and you turn it into another kind of energy... you don't get 100% of it.”
    [42:04]

  • LF:
    “You don't need the middleman at all.”
    [43:47]

• Simulation Hypothesis:
  They discuss Nick Bostrom’s theory about living in a simulated reality, with NDT presenting his rebuttal based on computational limitations.

  • NDT:
    “We currently do not have the ability or the computing power to create a perfect world where people think they have free will.”
    [46:03]

  • LF:
    “That's a frightening question that the Matrix sits in the middle of.”
    [46:30]

Notable Quote:

• NDT:
  “So that's a terrifying process.”
  [46:53]

---

3. Virtual Lives and the Future of Human Identity

Exploration of how technology is shaping human identities and realities.

• LF:
  “People are living virtual lives on their phones and on their computers and they create these avatars for themselves...”
  [48:06]

• NDT:
  “It reminds me of Chris Rock who said, anytime you meet someone, it's not really them, it's their representative.”
  [48:42]

Discussion Highlights:

• Consciousness Uploading:
  The potential future where human consciousness could be digitized, raising questions about identity and existence.

  • LF:
    “The singularity, this event is, is. Is not as close as we think, and it's not as far as we think either.”
    [49:22]

• Cultural Impact:
  How virtual representations influence societal perceptions and personal relationships.

---

4. Laurence Fishburne’s Theatrical Pursuits and Shakespearean Roles

Shifting focus to Fishburne’s accomplishments in theater, particularly his work with Shakespeare.

• LF:
  “I have to credit ... Kenneth Branagh... he said, shakespeare is a better poet than you.”
  [54:12]

• NDT:
  “You surrender to the language.”
  [54:35]

Discussion Highlights:

• "Othello" and "King Lear":
  LF discusses his portrayal of Othello alongside Kenneth Branagh and his upcoming role in "King Lear," emphasizing the challenges and rewards of performing Shakespeare's works.

  • LF:
    “It gave me something to take comfort in and it allowed me to relax...”
    [54:19]

• Shakespearean Acting:
  The intricacies of delivering Shakespeare’s complex language and character depth.

  • NDT:
    “You have to deliver it like that's exactly what you would have said in that moment.”
    [53:49]

Notable Quote:

• LF:
  “It's a powerful story. It's very powerful.”
  [33:18]

---

5. Personal Anecdotes and Reflections

Sharing of personal stories and experiences, highlighting the bond between Neil and Laurence.

• LF:
  “I've always been interested in... science and astronomy and the future and what it's going to look like and obviously science fiction.”
  [61:34]

• NDT:
  Recounts a memorable moment of filming "Cosmos" and bonding over shared interests.

  • NDT:
    “So there was like time out on the set of Cosmos and the three of us just boogie down for a bit.”
    [61:34]

Discussion Highlights:

• American Academy of Arts and Sciences:
  LF talks about his recent induction and the nomination process, expressing gratitude towards colleagues like Francis Ford Coppola.

  • LF:
    “I was made a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences last year.”
    [56:37]

• Future Projects:
  Plans to engage in live performances of Shakespeare’s "King Lear" at the Perlman Center.

  • LF:
    “I'm engaged to do King Lear at the Perlman.”
    [54:37]

---

6. Closing Thoughts and Philosophical Musings

Concluding the episode with reflections on storytelling, reality, and human perception.

• NDT:
  Emphasizes the importance of storytelling that transcends cultural and intellectual boundaries.

  • NDT:
    “The stories that have outlived civilizations.”
    [33:15]

• LF:
  Highlights the significance of Plato-like ideals in modern narratives, such as those explored in "The Matrix."

  • LF:
    “What it has brought you to me.”
    [31:25]

Final Notable Quote:

• NDT:
  “As always, I bid you to keep looking up.”
  [63:10]

Conclusion: The episode masterfully intertwines Laurence Fishburne's extensive acting career with deep scientific and philosophical discussions led by Neil deGrasse Tyson. From dissecting the scientific inaccuracies and profound themes of "The Matrix" to exploring the future of human identity in a digital age, the conversation offers listeners a rich blend of entertainment, education, and introspection. The mutual respect and camaraderie between Tyson and Fishburne further enhance the engaging narrative, making this episode a must-listen for fans of science, cinema, and thoughtful dialogue.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "They made science sexy." – Neil deGrasse Tyson
  [06:58]

• "That's Jesus all day." – Laurence Fishburne
  [28:01]

• "You don't need the middleman at all." – Laurence Fishburne
  [43:47]

• "That's a frightening question that the Matrix sits in the middle of." – Laurence Fishburne
  [46:30]

• "You surrender to the language." – Neil deGrasse Tyson
  [54:35]

• "As always, I bid you to keep looking up." – Neil deGrasse Tyson
  [63:10]

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the conversation between Neil deGrasse Tyson and Laurence Fishburne, providing insights into Fishburne's career, their shared interests in science and philosophy, and the intricate analysis of "The Matrix." The inclusion of notable quotes with specific timestamps allows readers to reference key moments, ensuring a rich and engaging overview of the episode.

Transcript

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[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

StarTalk welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil DeGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist. And today we are joining a one on one exclusive conversation with someone whom I'm proud to call my friend, Laurence Fishburne Lawrence.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Neil. How are you, man?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Welcome.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Thank you. This is so great. Thank you for having me. Oh, my God, I'm so excited to be here.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This is your first time back at the Hayden Planetarium?

[Laurence Fishburne]

I haven't been to Hayden Planetarium since I was a boy, probably.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, my God.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Walked by many times.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Because when I was a boy, I came by and it was like, I'm doing this for life.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes, exactly. Yeah, I wanted to live here too, but I wasn't that good in science. I liked it, but I wasn't that good.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Wait a minute. You told me your mama taught science.

[Laurence Fishburne]

My mama was a science teacher.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so then how'd that square out?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Well, I found this other little thing that I was good at.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, this little thing?

[Laurence Fishburne]

You know, that little acting thing, the little play acting. And it kind of worked out for me, so, you know.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Kind of worked out.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Kind of worked out. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So I just look at your catalog. Oh, my gosh. It's not just deep, but it's broad. And I'm looking at it, and I'm saying, if I were an actor, that's kind of how I'd want to be.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, man. Thanks.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because as an actor, you act this way and act that way and act this other way.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And if you always doing the same thing, that's not acting.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It's not as much fun. I mean, it's fun for some people. Some people, like, they do the thing. They find the thing. It works for them.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They do that. Yeah. It's cool.

[Laurence Fishburne]

For me, I. I'm just. I'm a kind of a curious person.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

So I'm interested in stuff that I don't know and learning about stuff that I don't know. So.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

By the way, that curiosity most of us lose in childhood, and as an adult, you get comfortable.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes, sure. But as an actor, it's good to have that kind of curiosity, because you never know what kind of part you're going to play if you're looking for something different every time, like I am.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Plus, you want people to. If you're not always in control of what role is offered.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And you want to at least give the options.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

To those.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And you want to keep learning. I mean, I want to keep learning. So my curiosity has just drove me to.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I'm just looking at this. How many people know you were in Apocalypse Now?

[Laurence Fishburne]

A few people.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I'd say a few people.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. You had a bit role in Apocalypse.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I was. I was one of the four guys on a boat heading upriver with Martin Sheen to go and assassinate Marlon Brando's character.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right. You were one of the young.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Young. I was a young sailor on the.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Sailor on the boat. And I remember you. You. I don't know if you confided in me. Whatever. Yeah, It's a little late now that you were, like, underage at the time. How old were you?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, so I auditioned for the movie. I was 14 years old. I got the part. They asked me how old I was in the interview. I lied and said I was 16. They knew that I was lying, but they just hired me anyway. It wasn't like my lie convinced them to hire me.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Gotcha.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It wasn't that. You know, a lot of guys, if you go back, you see these documentaries About World War I, you discover that there were many boys, 16, 17, who enlisted, who lied about their age, and they were conscripted anyway. And they went.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So they were. Right. Okay, so you were 14, lied and told him you were 16, and you were playing an 18. Year old.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And I was playing a 17 year old.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

17 year old. Okay, so that was Apocalypse now. Yeah, yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

1976. 1977.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And, you know, boys in the hood. John Wick. Oh, my gosh.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's just fun, mindless entertainment.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right? Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

John Wick.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. Style above content. Fighting. Fighting.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah. I love me some good fighting, you know.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. It's all good.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You know, even I've forgotten you. And I'm Blackish.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Blackish. Yep. As. As the grandfather.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Grandpa.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. Grumpy grandfather. Pops. That was fun. Csi, where I played a scientist.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Television. Pee Wee's Playhouse.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I played the cowboy. Curtis. Curtis.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Pee Wee's Playhouse.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. Peewee's Playhouse.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, man.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Good fun.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So what I thought was broad and diverse wasn't even the full story.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Not quite.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. All right. So you played a scientist on csi. Were you the guy in the morgue?

[Laurence Fishburne]

No, I was not the guy in the morgue. I basically replaced William Peterson when William Peterson, who was the bug man, left.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

My guy came in. I was a guy named Ray Langston, who was a pathologist.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So which CSI was this in the pantheon of csi?

[Laurence Fishburne]

It was in the original csi, which took place in Vegas.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I didn't remember that.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. By the way, 9, 10, and 11.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You must know, CSI ended up. It became so successful as a force of attraction for people who might want to become scientists.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I didn't know that.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And at least anecdotally, there were chemistry professors. Why are all these women now in the class that wouldn't. Were normally. Oh, I saw scientists on csi. Because there were real people portrayed with real social lives. Personal lives.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They were not just the.

[Laurence Fishburne]

No.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They weren't just nerds and brainy nerd lab scientists that. Give me the answer. Let's have the real people move on.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right. They made science sexy.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They were the real people.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And CSI created a museum exhibit that traveled.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's right. They did. Yes, they did. It made science sexy.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It was the way they shot it. And what I used to always tell people about the show was they were like, oh, you're the star of the show. I was like, no, I'm not the star of the show. I'm like, the crime that they're solving with the scientific method is the star of the show.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes. There it is.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's the star.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Science reigns supreme.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Absolutely.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

In every episode. Every episode. So was that your only time a scientist?

[Laurence Fishburne]

No, my other time as a scientist was in a film called Contagion that came out in 2009, I played the head of director of the CDC.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Nice.

[Laurence Fishburne]

So it was all about, you know, tracking down potential pandemics that were going to happen. And we had a guy who recently passed on, a guy named Elliot, who was the head of the cdc. And that was his job. And every day he'd be on the set and he'd be like, look at this. Look what we're tracking in Bolivia. Look at what we're tracking.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

As an advisor.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Laurence Fishburne]

He would be like, we're tracking this in this country. We're tracking this disease in this country. And it was fascinating. And then, of course, when Covid happened, it was like, there it is. It was like they had lifted everything from the movie and it was actually happening in real life.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I visited the CDC for my very first time just a couple of months ago.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And they took me deep into the. Did they? Yeah. To what was basically like, the situation. The. Well, no, I saw this vial of Legionnaires disease fluid. It's like, you know, it's like this is their. What, they study this? And so they. I went into the room, and as a. As an astro. Person, the only analog I have to. This is Mission control.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. All these desks in arcs and a huge wall, and it's a screen of the world.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And at every country, there's data.

[Laurence Fishburne]

There's data coming in.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

What disease is there? What's getting tracked? How many people have the disease? How many people have died from the disease.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And potentially what it will do if it gets out.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All of this is there.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes. But thank God for them.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Thank goodness that they exist, that organizations, they care. They care.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They care. So Scientists twice.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Let me say I'm a little disappointed, given how many movies you've made.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. You gotta come through for me now.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I've done a lot of science fiction, though.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, yes. Oh, my gosh.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I did a little.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I looked at the list and I'm embarrassed to say I've seen, like. Only I gotta go on a. Like a.

[Laurence Fishburne]

You gotta have a fishburne. You gotta have a fishburne night. You like. You get the movies, you line them up.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I'm gonna do a fish burn.

[Laurence Fishburne]

You get your menu, you line up your menu.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

We gotta do fishburne binge here. And. Yeah, the signal.

[Laurence Fishburne]

The signal.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The signal.

[Laurence Fishburne]

2017.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, that's.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That was a great one. I played not quite a scientist in that, but a guy in a hazmat suit.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

So it kind of qualifies.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Event horizon.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Event Horizon. Passengers.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Contagion.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Contagion.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The Colony.

[Laurence Fishburne]

The colony.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, man. Predators. What was that?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Predators was part of the Predator franchise. Okay, so it was.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That was a Predator 3?

[Laurence Fishburne]

No, no, it was. It was like four or something. Basically, the premise was the predator collected a group of really, really bad human beings and dropped them on this planet, which is basically the predator's hunting ground. So it's like a convict.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So they selected them to be bad already.

[Laurence Fishburne]

They selected them.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

None of us would miss them.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Exactly. This is where the predators go to practice their hunting. It was Adrien Brody, myself, Mahershala Ali, Alicia Braga. Topher.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That would have been early for Mahershala Ali, right?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I. Everything. He's in.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, it was early for Mahershala. Myself, Walton Goggins, and of course, Denny Trejo. It's a pretty cool movie.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I'll put it back on my list.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, Predators.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All right. Fantastic Four.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I didn't know Fantastic Four. I voiced the Silver Surfer.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, my gosh.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And then of course, this little, little thing I did called the Matrix.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Freaking Matrix.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That little movie.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You know, the Matrix?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. You know, I don't know who saw it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I can't even look at my notes anymore because you just distracted me. The Matrix. That's my single favorite movie of all time.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Really?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I don't know if you're ready to see what I want to show you, Neil.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But don't. Don't try to out deep voice me. Okay? Let's try it.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. I want you. I want to hear you. Do as best you can.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This is StarTalk.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay. This is StarTalk.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, you're trying too hard there. Oh, it's got to become. Don't try.

[Laurence Fishburne]

You need it. That wasn't naturalistic.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, you were forcing that. Let me.

[Laurence Fishburne]

This is startalk.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I'm Morpheus.

[Laurence Fishburne]

No, I'm Morpheus.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Why can't I be Morpheus?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Because you're not. Because I am.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You know, we just lost James Earl. James Earl Jones. Great.

[Laurence Fishburne]

James Earl Jones.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I only barely met him. I was at a premiere of On Golden Pond with him playing opposite Felicia Rashad.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And. But Darth Vader, I mean, come on.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Luke, I am your father.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Don't overestimate the power of your technological terror.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Let me hear. Luke, I am your father.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Go ahead. No, Luke, I am your father. Look into your search.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Your feelings you know to be true. Look, CNN hasn't been the same ever.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Since they stopped using his voice for.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So, like, they Using all the correspondence is like. Don't you understand?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Exactly. I just, I, I would love that gig.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, I want the gig.

[Laurence Fishburne]

You want that gig?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, I don't want you to have the gig.

[Laurence Fishburne]

We might have to fight about it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, no, you'll lose.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay, you, you ready? You ready? Let's try it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Here we go.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Ready? Let's audition. We're going to. This is our audition for cnn. Ready?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Replacing James. Marmy, go first.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This is cnn.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's not bad. It's actually pretty good. Oh, this is cnn.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, that sounded a little more authoritative. Let me go ahead, let me try again.

[Laurence Fishburne]

All right, go ahead.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because you, you, you hit, you hit the syllable sharp there.

[Laurence Fishburne]

This is my wheelhouse, you know what I mean?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, okay. All right, all right.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Come on.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This is cnn.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Nice, nice. This is cnn.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You got the little breath at the end there. I could put some breath in too.

[Laurence Fishburne]

You could put some breath in.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This is cnn.

[Laurence Fishburne]

All right, you got it. I'm gonna just. I acquiesce.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's your gig.

[Laurence Fishburne]

You want. You got it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So how deep can you take your voice? Have you? Probably right about in here, like, like below audio frequency levels.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I don't think it's sub. I don't think it's sub.20 hertz. I don't know if it's that deep.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

With 20 to 20,000. That's the, the traditional range.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. Actually, I just put it through a thing. I go to the studio and they put it through a thing.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They'll take it down.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. And it sounds like evil alien.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Let me say, I haven't. Haven't done this in a while.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay, and now.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, no.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Come on, baby.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so now if you can do that voice, then it looks like Morgan Freeman got all the God jobs.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, he did, he did. He did get all the Almighty's.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Almighty.

[Laurence Fishburne]

He got all the Everlastings in the Almighty's. Yeah. Okay, so, you know, but you got the cosmos. You got the cosmos.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You can't have a pipsqueak voice coming out of the universe.

[Laurence Fishburne]

No, you can't.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That doesn't work.

[Laurence Fishburne]

No, no. It's like burning bush. Gotta be down here.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You've gotta be. It's just a bias we have.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, it does.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Suppose God's voice was. Hi, everybody. There's no reason why I couldn't be high pitched. Hi. I love you so much. I love you.

[Laurence Fishburne]

All of you are my children and.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I love you so much. No one would believe it.

[Laurence Fishburne]

They would just like, okay, all right.

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[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and Hello, I'm Alexander Harvey and I support StarTalk on Patreon. This is StarTalk with Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Let me take you to the mat with the main.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Let's go. Let's go.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So one of the reasons why it's my favorite film is other than one little bit where the science. They played loose with the science. Right. By the way, I don't mind that provided a story is internally consistent. That's the big Comic Con rule. Really?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Ah, okay, okay, okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's not whether it's real science or not.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But if you're gonna have a rule that operates in your story, stick with it.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. If you. If you set up the rules of.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The world, I'm perfectly happy.

[Laurence Fishburne]

You have to abide by those rules.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Correct. And that's what any video game is.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's any story. Any.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Any story in any medium.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Actually, it's any story in any me that I. I agree. And so it did it so well. And it was such a fantasy adventure and. And good and evil, and I don't know. It was. And it was beautiful to watch.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And so just my, you know, kudos to the. The Wachowskis.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Absolutely.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. It was a brilliant. A brilliant idea and a brilliant execution of a brilliant idea.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So apparently, rumor tells that Will Smith's agent was not convinced by the story enough to have him play Neo. Play Neo.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And so what about the story? Intrigued. You moved to Australia for five months or whatever.

[Laurence Fishburne]

For two years, basically.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, two years. Yeah, basically.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I mean, we were there for three years doing all three movies.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Essentially, what drew my interest in it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Was it wasn't too weird for you say, I don't know what this is. I understood it.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I understood it. Oh, maybe Will Smith.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

People couldn't.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Here's the thing. Cross that there was a guy, one of the main producers on it, obviously, Joel Silver was one of the producers. There's another guy named Lorenzo Bonaventura who was one of the producers. And he was, I think, the guy who was, like, showing this to the studio executives, to the people who make the decisions. And a lot of the stories.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

What do you call them? The shirts or the jackets?

[Laurence Fishburne]

The suits, whatever.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The suits.

[Laurence Fishburne]

So the executives. Right. And many of them were. The story is that many of them just didn't get it. They were like, we don't understand this. And what I've heard is that Lorenzo's response to that was, don't worry. No one under 30 understands it anyway.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Wow.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

So I was 34, 35 or something when I read it, and it was the most original thing I had ever read. That didn't mean that everyone was gonna get it. That didn't mean that everybody was going to understand it. That's what my experience with Apocalypse now had taught me, because when I made Apocalypse now in the 1970s, it was the most expensive movie ever made. It was the most ambitious movie ever made during that period of time. Marlon Brando was in the movie and Martin Sheen was in the movie, and it was about the Vietnam War, and it was exciting, and John Melius wrote the screenplay and all these wonderful elements, but the movie commercially did not do well. It was a critical success, but it was not a commercial success. So I had learned that even though something on the page or as a concept is brilliant, that doesn't mean it's gonna translate with an audience, particularly an American audience. One never knows. The American audience is fickle, is mercurial, man. It's, you know, so I just knew that it was the most original thing that I had ever read. And I understood it, I got it and I wanted to be a part of it. And the timing just so happened that the way that it all sort of came together. We shot the movie in 1998. The movie came out in 1999. The Internet was born in 1998. Essentially, cell phones became a reality in 1999.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Just the digital world. The digital world descended on everyone.

[Laurence Fishburne]

On everyone. And essentially what the story and why it resonates with everybody all over the planet, and it did at that time is because it's the old myth told in a digital format. And we were right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So it had deep resonance.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, we were right at the birth of the digital age.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. And so. But is that rumor true that Will Smith turned it down?

[Laurence Fishburne]

I don't know. I've heard that before, but I don't know. I've never really sat down with Will and asked him about it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Because that, when I heard that, I said, how does an actor know what role you should or shouldn't take? You know?

[Laurence Fishburne]

You know, it depends on who you are. And, you know, if you're true to.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yourself, it doesn't even matter. You just true to yourself.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's. It's anybody's guess. Maybe that's the case. I don't know. I've never sat down and asked Will about it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, can I share with you all my religious observations?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes, please.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, yeah. Catholic. Religious. Christian. Catholic observations.

[Laurence Fishburne]

As you are a Catholic.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Well, I was raised.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Raised Catholic. Right, okay, please.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes. Doubts?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Descended early. Yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Well, a religion rifled with doubt.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. But I'm still fascinated by the fact that there is such a thing as religion in the world and billions of people practice that. Practice it. Right. That intrigues me as an educator.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because something is attracting them. What is it? And why? And you're this religion over here because that was the religion of your parents and you're sure your religion is the one true religion in the world. But so are these people are just as sure as you are and will go to war on that.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Historically, yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Historically, correct, yes. So that's why religion intrigues me so in the Matrix. So first Neo, that's an anagram of the One, the one you had to dip your head at. The One.

[Laurence Fishburne]

The One.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You can't non act that expression of it. The One.

[Laurence Fishburne]

The One.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So that's the one, right? All right. He's the savior, Right? All right, so now watch.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Christ.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Okay, so now watch. Early in the film, he wakes up from his, right? And there's someone knocking at the door. And apparently he hacked something for them, right? And is about to give them. And so he says, wait a minute. He goes back, rummages through a thing.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Gives him a disgusting, right?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And the guy says, thanks, you know. Okay. You're my savior. You're my regular Jesus Christ.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. You're my own personal Jesus Christ.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's a script line.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's right there.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, it's right there.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right there. Okay. But let's not stop there. All right, so we keep going. There's the part where he gets brought into the Nebuchadnezzar for the first time. So he's still wrapped and looking around, and there's Joe. Joey pants.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, Joey pants. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Pantaleono.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Pantaleono.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Pantoliano. And he's there and he's just looking. And then that character Cypher is startled and he says, oh, you scared the bejesus out of me.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yep. That's two.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so hang on.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's two. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, hang on.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Who betrays the group?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Cypher. Cypher, yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

He betrays.

[Laurence Fishburne]

He's the Judas.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Who? He's Judas?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, he's the Judas.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, he's Judas.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

After the bejesus was scared out.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

He doesn't have Jesus.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Doesn't have Jesus in him.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, all right, let me keep going.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Keep going.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

If you can. Because you think you know the movie better than I do and you might.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I don't know. You might. Here's the Go is my favorite movie, and you've made 100 movies, right? So.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So. Okay, okay, okay. All right. So then everyone sort of decides that he's the one.

[Laurence Fishburne]

He's the one.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right, right. When he's like pulling Trinity up in the helicopter as it comes.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

He is the one.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I told you. He is the one.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

He is the one.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Do you believe it now? Trinity. That was good.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I don't know what it means to compliment you on exactly imitating what you were paid to do in a movie. And I would say, hey, you should be that character.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Too late. Already been done.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, but the weird thing is you're not imitating that character. You were that character.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Even that. Yes, yes, yes. So let's fast forward towards the end. He gets shot point blank right by Smith.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Then he drops.

[Laurence Fishburne]

He drops.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

He keeps firing. Into him?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. Just. All right. Do you know how many bullets he put in him?

[Laurence Fishburne]

I don't.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You don't?

[Laurence Fishburne]

I don't.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I will tell you.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Tell me.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. It requires a little bit extrapolation. Okay, okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The bullets, you see, it's like four bullets, point blank to the chest.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

At that point we go back to the Nebuchadnezzar and you see his body responding.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. But what if you track the rate that bullets are being fired.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And continue them into that scene. Then we come out of the scene and there's a few more bullets that you observe.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's 14 bullets.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

There are 14 stations of the Cross.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I didn't know.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

In a Catholic church.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I didn't know that.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Now, for non Catholics out there, in every church. Catholic church. In the. Typically, in the pillars that surround the main open area.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

From the side areas mounted, facing inward are 14 drawings, paintings, relief maps of the 14. They're called stages of the cross.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Got it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And they're key moments in Jesus's life. And it's an early movie, really. Oh, the word movie doesn't even exist.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right. But a sequence.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Visual.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's a visual sequence. Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And it's all of it. And it's. He's tried under Pontius Pilate. He carries the cross, he's put up on the cross. He dies on the cross.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, yeah, got it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So it's all there. You can look it up on any.

[Laurence Fishburne]

14 stages of the cross.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Laurence Fishburne]

14 bullets now. Interesting.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And he dies.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Then he's resurrected.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Resurrected. Right there.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It comes back more powerful than ever before.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Is that not Jesus? That's Jesus all throughout, joining the side of God.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's Jesus all day.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All day.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All day, all night.

[Laurence Fishburne]

So who's Trinity?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Well, okay, so we got it.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Like in the Catholic.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That would have to be Mary Magdalene.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But I'm thinking.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Let me just take them to a sex club. That's where they meet at the sex.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Was that a sex club?

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's a sex club.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They were just dancing.

[Laurence Fishburne]

No, it's a sex club. You look behind and you're looking deep in the background. They didn't allow them to show all of that. But it's a sex club, really.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. Mary Magdalene right there.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And who's Morpheus in the. In the Christ mythology?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I know, I'm trying to.

[Laurence Fishburne]

He's the Baptist.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

John the Baptist.

[Laurence Fishburne]

He's John the Baptist.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, because John the Baptist Knows Jesus is coming.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

He knows who he is and sets everything up.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And he's been looking for him.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

He'd been looking for him.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And when he meets him, he goes, I'm supposed to be baptized by you. So that's who Morpheus is in the Christ mythology.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

In the Christ.

[Laurence Fishburne]

But there's also mythology, Greek mythology.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Tell me, tell me.

[Laurence Fishburne]

There's. Well, Morpheus is the lord of dream. He's the God of dream.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All right.

[Laurence Fishburne]

From Greek mythology. Right. Persephone, who's in the second or third movie, who's played by Monica Bellucci. Mm. The oracle.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes. That's. That's an actual oracle.

[Laurence Fishburne]

The oracle is Greek.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Too bad we lost her before the second film. Yeah, she was really strong character. Niobe, there's an element on the periodic table called niobium.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Is there?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes, there is, because there's something about the colors that were sort of iridescent and radiant.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And it's something about the. In the Greek legend.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Niobe. I don't know the full story, but it had. It would borrow that from Greek legend. Niobium.

[Laurence Fishburne]

So there's the Osiris, there's the Nebuchadnezzar, which is also biblical.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes. It's also the size of a very large bottle of wine. Ah, Nebuchadnezzar. You tend to find it only in champagne, because that's when you. It's a party.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It's kingly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. It's party for 30 people.

[Laurence Fishburne]

30 people.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And you just lean the bottle for Nebuchadnezzar.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Nebuchadnezzar is the size of a. So there's, you know, there's the gnosis, there's the Osiris. Okay, so Persephone.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I don't want to say mashup, because that might undersell it. It's drawing from.

[Laurence Fishburne]

But it's drawing from all these traditions. It draws from Western tradition spiritually, religiously. And Eastern tradition spiritually and philosophically as well, especially. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because scenes are not just simple scenes. You have to think about them.

[Laurence Fishburne]

No.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

What's going on here and why.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right, right. Like, when I saw the film for the first time, I had forgotten about all of that because we had to train so hard to get the physical stuff right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That I forgot about all of the philosophy and all of the sort of realistic.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But you come in and film your scene and go back to the trailer.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It's not. No, it's not that simple. It's not that simple. It was a year of work. But so much of it was physical. And we had to work so hard to do that that I really forgot about the stuff that's in the dialogue. Like, my favorite stuff is in that first encounter I have with him. And I'm asking him, do you know why you're here?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You didn't say that. Do you know why you're here?

[Laurence Fishburne]

See, and this is what has brought you to me. And that whole thing about, do you know what the Matrix is? And I go, it's all around us. You can feel it when you go to church and all that stuff. Yeah, that's my favorite stuff because it's very. It's really cryptic and it's. And it's really an ethereal. And ethereal and very.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And you have to deliver it that way. Otherwise it's just a line.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, it's just a line.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

You have to live inside that. And I had forgotten about all that stuff that's in it. And even the stuff with, like, Joe Pants and the agents when he's talking to them and he's having the dinner.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, yes.

[Laurence Fishburne]

He's having his steak.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's very. That's so. That's almost asmr. Okay. Because he's eating the steak and he puts the.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And he's eating it and he's like, I know this steak isn't real.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. But my mind.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And I don't care.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Is telling me it. Okay, so we have a deal.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I. I don't want to remember nothing. Nothing.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You pull that back in my body. Right.

[Laurence Fishburne]

All that stuff is just, you know, it's fantastic.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Every. Every. So. So that's my. So the. The religious line through it. And no one doesn't love the idea of a savior. I mean, this is.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And. And a plausible savior. Right. He didn't show up as Superman.

[Laurence Fishburne]

No.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Laurence Fishburne]

No.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This. He had to find it in himself.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Just the way the oracle had required.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Nothing. Yeah. So that's why it's your favorite movie. Cause it reminds you of Jesus.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, I respect storytelling.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And the stories that have outlived civilizations.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And the story of the Christ is indeed.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's there. A powerful story. That's there. It's very powerful. Very powerful. So there's all of that, and then there's a few more things. Okay. They tossed in. It was a little bit. They stapled it on. When the oracle says, watch out for that glass. And he says, what glass?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And he turns around and it drops.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And he drops.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And she says, that glass now here's gonna be eating your craw. Would you have done it if I didn't?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. It's one of these future, you know, did trying to avoid the future make that future happen. So I thought that that was unnecessary because the movie was already deep and that was almost cliche. Sci fi.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Time, you know. Sure. Future prediction.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Sure, sure.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I thought the movie was above that.

[Laurence Fishburne]

But fine, I liked it. I thought it was clever because of what they did. The way they set it up with the know thyself sign.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And they set it up with that. And also that she's grandma and she's baking cookies.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, no, it was. It was a full.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Her bacon cookies. And she's in the projects. Like she lives in the project.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I don't know if people know that those are the projects. That's in Australia.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Well, we weren't supposed to be in Australia. No, it takes place in a modern city.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. I think ostensibly Chicago.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes, basically.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And I only know that because I have the original script.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And so it's the L going.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And yeah, they wanted to shoot it.

[Laurence Fishburne]

There, but unfortunately couldn't do it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Heart of the city.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Heart of the city.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Heart o the city. Heart of the city Hotel. Yes. Oh, and Wabash Avenue.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And Wabash. And Wabash. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Wabash is a main street in Chicago. And that's an explicitly stated street.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, but I'm saying where did you guys get the projects in Australia to film in?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, there were no, it was all loca. It wasn't location. That wasn't a location. That was a. That was a soundstage.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, just set that up.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. Very well done. Yeah, that felt like the project.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It did.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. That grew up in projects and that. Yeah, they were middle income projects, so. Yeah, there were fewer junkies. Yeah, yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

No, but it felt like the projects. Yeah, it really did.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, it did. They got that.

[Laurence Fishburne]

They got it. Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And a couple of things.

[Laurence Fishburne]

What do you think about the spoon?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I'm getting it. That's my next thing.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Sorry, sorry.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So I give a public talk. One of which you attended. Yeah, I think you attended it. One of them is called an astrophysicist Goes to the movies.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And I show clips and then I analyze the clip. Okay. And the Matrix has a dozen clips. I don't put them all in one thing. Cause it's scientifically themed, not movie themed. Right. So I have a section on optics. Okay. With the spoon.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

One side is convex One side is concave.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You slurp out of the concave side.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Concave, Convex.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

If you look into a spoon on the convex side, right, you are distorted. But right side up, if you look on the concave side, it's upside down. You are upside down. And that was accurately captured in the movie.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Laurence Fishburne]

The science was right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The science. The optics of that.

[Laurence Fishburne]

The optics of the science was right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, that was good.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That was cool.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I like that.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And then the kids saying, do not.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Do not try to move the.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Do not bend the spoon. That's impossible.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's impossible.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Instead, bend yourself around the spoon.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I said we. That's good. That's good.

[Laurence Fishburne]

No, it's genius, man.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, it's good. It's genius. It's all good.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Now, here's another thing. I let it go because everyone does it. But just, I'm telling you that in almost every movie where they show people crazily brilliant.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. Like, that's the point of the movie.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because they're brilliant.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Like Phenomenon, for example. Sure. John Travolta.

[Laurence Fishburne]

John Travolta. I've never seen that.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. It's interesting. It's. It's worth. You know, if you're at home. Cool. He gets hit by lightning and he. He was just a regular guy, Right. Even partly mocked for not being smart.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh. And then he wakes up and he's.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, well, after he's hit by lightning. And Robert Duvall is in that as the. The person studying his new abilities. Anyhow, the point is, he says, name me 10 mammals or something you want, in alphabetical order. And then he goes through the whole Alphabet.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All right, so, yes, a really brilliant, smart person would do that.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I don't have a problem with that. But in almost all these cases, they start moving stuff with their.

[Laurence Fishburne]

With their minds.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

With their minds. And it's like, there's no evidence that smart people can move stuff. You just figure things out faster or better. Okay, okay, Right. I'll give you that. You start moving things.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And then there was Lucy. Did you.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You have to see Lucy. Okay. Morgan Freeman was in there.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It's fun.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah. And she starts using more of her mind, changes her hair color as she's walking down the street.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You know, stops bullets. You know, you gotta be in the Matrix to stop bullets. Come on, now.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You know.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So anyhow, so the. The. The hopefuls who are waiting in line to see oracles. Yeah. The potentials. Yeah. So they Were doing things.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. The one kid was moving the blocks.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The blocks in the air. Yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So. Okay, fine. It's a. Fine.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It's a nice visual.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Cool. Also, the Oracle is establishing that Trinity is in love with him.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And he's oblivious to that. Okay. I was kind of oblivious to that, too. I mean, I'm just, You know, guys are just generally stupid, you know, about these things, so. And she says, you're not too smart, either.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Not too bright.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Not too bright.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I don't wonder what she sees in you. Ooh. Not too bright either. Yeah, it's great.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's really cool.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because given the choice, you'll have Morpheus in one hand and Trinity in the other. And, you know, so I think it. It was brilliantly acted by Keanu Reeves where he's in the car and they're driving and he says, good sushi.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I used to have noodles. I used to eat noodles there. I used to eat there. Good noodles. Really good noodles.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Really good noodles.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And he says, none of that's real. And I'm inside of him feeling this.

[Laurence Fishburne]

He goes, I can't go back, can I?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right. This is.

[Laurence Fishburne]

He's like, even if you could, would you want.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. I mean, that was one of the hardest choices because so many of us. I mean, that's another thing. Forget all the religious, mythological sentiment. It's. What do you value more? Cypher said, put me back in my body. You know, I don't want.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I don't want to know anything.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I don't want to know anything. But, you know, I'm a scientist and I'm curious. I kind of rather know the truth.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because there's some chance, some hope that you can do something about the truth.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Or you can do something with it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Do something with it. If it's all just a delusion, I don't know that I want that to be my life.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Let me tell you my one issue.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right. Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I only have one.

[Laurence Fishburne]

The only one thing that scientifically just rubs you the wrong way.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Rubs me the wrong way. And the rest of the movie was so brilliantly done, I'm giving it a hall pass, my man.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Hall pass on the Matrix.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Here's your hall pass.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's what's up.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All right, so you've got the scene where you are describing to Neo, where he is. There's a chair there.

[Laurence Fishburne]

The Construct. We're in the Construct.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

We're in the Construct and it's white everywhere.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Brilliantly done. And there's no echo.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That Was perfectly done. All right. You describe to him that the machines are using humans as batteries. As batteries.

[Laurence Fishburne]

As a power source.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

As a power source. And there's some other language in there. Just to flesh out that scenario. Here's a problem in the laws of thermodynamics. If you have a certain amount of energy here, and you turn it into another kind of energy. For example, there's chemical energy in gasoline. You put that in your car, it turns it into kinetic energy to move your car. You ingest food, which is chemical energy, and you keep your body at body temperature. Even though it's colder outside. When you're comfortable 72 degrees, your body is still maintaining 98 degrees inside. If you put anything outside at 98 degrees, it'll go down to 72 degrees. Even though you're saying that's a really comfortable thing, your body's actively maintaining your body time. That takes energy, right? Your body's moving, you're running, you're acting. It takes energy.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. It turns out anytime you convert energy from one form to another, you don't get 100% of it.

[Laurence Fishburne]

You don't get 100%.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, you get, like, at best, 90%. Your car. I forgot the numbers. The efficiency has grown over the years. Car might get 30% of the energy of the gas to have you move forward, you know where the rest goes? Into heat. That's why the engine gets hot.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Got it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Of a combustion engine car.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

We just take it for granted. Of course it's going to get hot. Wait a minute. That's energy I wanted to use to go forward. That's miles per gallon wasted as heat. That's what happens when you convert from.

[Laurence Fishburne]

One form of energy to another to.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Another form of energy.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. So now the laws of thermodynamics dictate that it's not 100%. You don't get 100% of your energy. All right, here are the machines using humans as a form of energy. I can tell you how much energy we radiate. Okay. We. Depending on how big you are. All right. If you're exercising or not in that moment, typically between 80 and 100 watts.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

80, 100 watt light bulb. That's how much. That's what we are. We used a battery, and that's fine. Rather than a bulb. Yeah, same idea. Yeah, same idea. That's not what matters here.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. We are an energy source for the machines. They're tapping our hundred watts. Okay, fine. Where do we get 100 watts from? They're feeding us.

[Laurence Fishburne]

They're feeding us.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They're feeding us.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Whatever. They're feeding us. Feed themselves with that.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Bypass the middle. The literal middleman.

[Laurence Fishburne]

The middleman.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You don't need the middleman at all.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right. Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You don't feed humans. Have them generate energy, and then if that energy generate the machine. Okay, well, what are you doing? They didn't study physics.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Probably not.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But then there wouldn't be a movie.

[Laurence Fishburne]

There wouldn't be a great movie.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You just.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Like a movie that you watch and you never get those two hours back again. And you don't have the memories and you don't have the appreciation and the cultural, you know, significance.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It was so worthy of a hall pass. I gladly signed it. It really gladly signed it over the.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Idea that human beings are batteries is kind of cool.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, it's a cool. And it's true. And it's true. Speaking of hall passes, I was once principal for the day at a middle school in the Bronx.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, goodness.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It was a program where they bring you in and you'd see how the public schools are run and this sort of thing.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So I didn't tell him. I snuck out the pad, the principal's pad that says principal on the top.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I still have it in my. Don't tell anybody. That's gotta be the most powerful thing.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Safe with me. Safe with me.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The principal's notepad.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right. So I can. If I sign a hall pass. It's all good.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It's all good.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's all good. Cool. So I let that one slide.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's good, man. Thanks.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It was a brilliantly delivered scene with the battery. You don't say Duracell, but we all know what the Copper Top is.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And that was very well done.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And then one character refers to him as Copper Top in the movie.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Derogatory. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the film raised a point early on. It was early, by the way. Just so you know, there's someone generally credited with advancing the possible, the idea that we could be living in a matrix. His name is Nick Bostrom.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And those are into dumpster diving. We have him as a guest on an earlier episode of StarTalk. He's an Oxford philosopher.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And you can hypothesize that if we have the ability to create a world in a computer and the characters in that world think they have free will, then how do you know you're not one of those characters that are created now? If they have free will and they invent computers and they want game time. They might create a computer world within their computers. And if they think they have free.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Will, then they could do the same thing.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And it's that all the way down. Exactly. And so if you close your eyes and throw a dart. I'm simplifying his argument, but this is the essence of close your eyes and throw a dart. Which universe are you most likely to hit? One of these simulated universes or the one real one that started them all? And so that's a terrifying process.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's a frightening question.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Frightening question that the Matrix sits in the middle of. Yeah, in the middle. And so my best rebuttal to that was, by the way, the last universe has to evolve to get computers and program and. Right. All right. We currently do not have the ability or the computing power to create a perfect world where people think they have free will. We don't have that ability yet.

[Laurence Fishburne]

No, we don't.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Well, if we don't have that ability yet, we're not any of the ones in the middle that do have that ability.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Nope.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So we're either the last one, the last simulated universe that hasn't gotten there yet, or we're the original universe that hasn't gotten there yet.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Logic tells you that. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So we go from the odds are like 99.999% chance we are to 1 and 2.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's how I got out of this one.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's pretty good.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That made me feel better. Feel a little better about that.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's very clever. I was just talking about, like, the phones and virtual lives that people are living online. Oh, that's what I was like.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, that's like not. You think so? So you become your own avatar.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, people are having. I mean, people are living virtual lives on their phones and on their computers and they create these avatars for themselves and post and look at me and all that. And it feels like the life that they live on their device is more important than their life here in the here and now, in the real world.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It reminds me of Chris Rock who said, anytime you meet someone, it's not really them, it's their representative. It's the person they want you to think they are. And online does that better than anything?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes. It allows you to sort of present. Present what you wish people to think of you and the way you want people to perceive you.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So is this our first step? Will we one day step into that character?

[Laurence Fishburne]

I don't know.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And you become your online character?

[Laurence Fishburne]

I don't know. Here's What I think, though, I did this.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Well, wait, it can happen. Let's say you're dying, and we say we can upload your consciousness and have you occupy all these spaces you have established online.

[Laurence Fishburne]

So I did a science thing, this thing called Year Million. Have you seen this thing?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No. All right, so Year Million.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, it's a limited series. It was about four episodes. And it's all about the singularity. You've heard of the singularity?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So it's.

[Laurence Fishburne]

The hypothesis is the singularity, and when that's gonna happen and when it all becomes sentient. And ultimately what will happen is we will evolve to this point where we integrate with the technology.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And that thing you just described about being able to upload your consciousness into a matrix is kind of. But it's.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That'll happen way sooner than the Year Million.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Well, according to this show and the science behind the show. I didn't. I wasn't responsible for the science. I'm just the narrator. The singularity, this event is, is. Is not as close as we think, and it's not as far as we think either.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. All right, that's a. All right, that's.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I'm just saying, 150 years ago, we were in horse and buggy.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And now we have rovers on Mars. Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right. But what's happening here is what's important, not what's happening out there. Because, I mean, even to get out there, we don't have the infrastructure to do that yet.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, not yet.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And that's going to take a long time to figure that out.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Wait, so straighten me out. The Matrix was when you're not in reality. Got it?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so when you're in the Matrix, most people, as they say, you know, you take out her garbage. Garbage?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. You go to church, you go to church, you go to work.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You go to work. Yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

But you can feel it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes. So who in the movie are only the hackers, the one who felt it. The ones with great computing power?

[Laurence Fishburne]

No.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Would everyone have felt it?

[Laurence Fishburne]

I would like to think that everyone felt it, but not everyone paid attention. In other words, most people chose to ignore the feeling.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And then there were certain people who couldn't ignore the feeling.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

There it is. Because I wake up and I have these feelings.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Uh oh, something getting ready to happen.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Man. No. So I wonder more often than I should, why is it that I wake up every day as myself? How come I don't wake up as another person? Why am I consistently myself every day? And then I wondered, is that even true? Do I actually wake up as different people every day thinking I was always that person and why am I having these thoughts?

[Laurence Fishburne]

You should have been an actor man. Because then that wouldn't bother you.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, it wouldn't bother me.

[Laurence Fishburne]

You would wake up and be whoever.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You wanted to be that day. I saw your one man show. I feel like Tiny Tim. I know. I saw your one man show downtown at the Perlman Center.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And it was a series of skits and you were completely different characters in every skit. The different characters, the different tonalities.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Sure.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Different body gestures. Sure, yeah, yeah. Acting is not just. Did you deliver the line right?

[Laurence Fishburne]

No.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Is your. Did you. Did your body participate right. In the delivery of the line?

[Laurence Fishburne]

It's, you know, it's the storytelling thing, it's the characterization thing, it's the physicality thing. But essentially, you know, that show is thing I've been working on forever and ever and.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, just congratulations on that.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Thank you. And it's just, you know, those five characters that I do, plus myself as, you know, an adult and as a child and as a younger man and all that. But thank you. Thank you for coming to see it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah. No, that was good. It was good.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It was beautiful.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So there so many great actors where you part the curtains and somewhere in there they've done Shakespeare.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right. And you, you were Othello.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes, I did Shakespeare. I did Othello on screen with Kenneth Branagh.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, yeah. He's a big Shakespeare guy. He's a great Shakespeare. That's his thing.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And Iran Jacob. Yeah. Back in 1995.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Okay. The street cred. Shakespeare cred.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I got a little shake. Shake it up a little bit.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It was fun. It was great fun. I haven't done it live, which is one of the things I hope to do in the future. In fact, I'm engaged to do it at the Perlman. I'm engaged to do King Lear at the Perlman. Oh, King Lear. Sometime in the near future. Yeah. Wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's an important story right there.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It's a great story.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, wow.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Some say it's arguably one of the greatest plays ever written.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

For me, it's up there just for the messaging that it is.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It's powerful for me.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Shakespeare. The challenge is here's this very awkward sentence to anyone's modern ears, and you gotta deliver it like that's exactly what you would have said in that moment.

[Laurence Fishburne]

In that moment at that time.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And that's hard.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Well, he's a Better poet than we will ever be actors.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So wait, wait, pause. I gotta.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay, I have to credit. I have to credit.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I just have to catch up with that sentence.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I just have to credit that with Kenneth Branagh. Kenneth Branagh said that to me when we were doing Othello. He said, shakespeare is a better poet than you.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That gave you something to ascend to.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It gave me something to take comfort in and it allowed me to relax and not try. Like I'm never gonna be as great an actor as Shakespeare was a writer.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

So I don't have to try to do that.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

All I need to do really is be mindful and surrender to the language and try to speak the language with as much ease and dexterity as possible.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I surrender to the language. I like that. I was in the Oregon in. I attended the Oregon Shakespeare Festival.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Up in Ashland, Oregon, just recently.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I've never been.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh my gosh. The whole culture is embedded in the town. And I saw Coriolanus for the very first time.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, I just saw it in London with David Oyello.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, yeah. Okay. It's one of the most violent things oh yeah. Ever written.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. Except their version. Now this sounds like. Oh, they're just trying to be.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, okay, okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Their version was played by women and non binary actors.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Wonderful.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But all women.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And you say, well, why are they doing that? What's the point of that? Here's why. If when you see guys being violent, you say, oh, there's just guys being violent.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You see a woman threatening to slit someone's throat, our acculturization says that's especially violent. Cuz women don't go running around, threaten each other with knives and swords. And it's not a thing in our culture and in our literature when you see women doing it, it brought the violence to a whole other level that I think I would have missed otherwise if it was just.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Unless you were in a woman's prison.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Unless in a woman's prison. Okay. You say that like you've been.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I haven't, but I'm assuming.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, yeah. No. So it was. It took me to. Now it just take 5 minutes to adjust to it. But then it's like every act of violence was more violent because of that. So people just exploring ways to get out of a story things that you wouldn't otherwise know.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

What's this with you and the American Academy of Arts and Science?

[Laurence Fishburne]

I was made a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences last year.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Well, congratulations.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Thank you. I was so honored. I was so surprised. My friend David Anderson, who is a scientist who's in Pasadena, California, nominated me.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And then that was a dig. Because I didn't.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Cause you didn't. Because my friend Neil DeGrasse Tyson didn't. And then my other friend.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So was that a dig?

[Laurence Fishburne]

I don't know Francis Ford Coppola Francisco, who seconded my nomination.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So of course you'd know him because he directed.

[Laurence Fishburne]

He directed Apocalypse and Rumble Throw Fish and Cotton Club and One from the Heart.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

These are all your movies you're in, right? Okay.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I was in One from the Heart, but I got cut out of it. Thank God. I was mercifully cut out of it. And then a movie called Gardens of Stone, which is the only time I ever worked with James Earl Jones, the late James Earl Jones. And then most recently, Megalopolis.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, that's on my list.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, I've seen previews.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Is beautiful.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, I've seen previews.

[Laurence Fishburne]

It's really beautiful.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So I sort of know Coppola.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Francis Ford. We met a couple of times, just overlapping paths. And his film, the Conversation is second, just below the Matrix until my favorite.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's. Wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's a very tight, brilliant story, but really cerebral and cerebral. Yes, I'm there. Plus I identify with the main character, who is himself geeky and a little socially awkward.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Socially awkward, but also in a world of his owned.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And very, very much isolated.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes. That's what part of. You know, back then with you a geeky, you were isolated and you're geeky now. We all found each other at Comic Con, but back then, you know, that was not how it happened.

[Laurence Fishburne]

But then he also has this, this reach, this power that allows him to sort of enter into other people's worlds and their lives.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's a way to say that I thought about it that way. Yeah.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Plus, he came to one of my public talks and he gifted me one of his wines. Yeah. I think he acquired the Inglenook Vineyards and then became Coppola. And he's done some other things. Yeah. Yeah. Kneebound.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So I had a little overlap with him, but otherwise he's an incredible man.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And I, I, I.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So he was nominated you.

[Laurence Fishburne]

He nominated me for the American Academy. But he's really the guy that's responsible for me becoming the kind of artist that I am.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Wow.

[Laurence Fishburne]

My exposure, the things that he exposed me to, and the way in which he trained me and, and, and the way in which I worked with him is really kind of how I've managed to do what I do.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So let me tell people how we first met.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. I'm filming Cosmos in the desert in New Mexico, which has a lot of tax incentives.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Tax incentives for movies.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So there's a whole movie industry and.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Sci fi lore kind of hovering in the realm of the culture. Am I not allowed to say that? Did I say something? I'm sorry, but am I not allowed to talk about it?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Did you visit Area 51 while you were there?

[Laurence Fishburne]

I did not.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Well, then who are you to talk about. I'm just saying I visited Area 51.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I'm just saying it's lore.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's like I visited Area 51.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Well, I did a story about it on history's greatest mysteries, I'll have you know. Matter of fact, two episodes were dedicated to Area 51 and the Roswell incident. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All right. Well, if you visit. If you visit Roswell.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The lamp posts have green alien lampshades on them.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, no.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Alien heads.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Oh, that's so tiki.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Once you go there, there's no turning back. So, kids, it's built into the economy of this.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Gotta go, gotta go.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You gotta keep pumping that.

[Laurence Fishburne]

So back to the real story.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, sorry, sorry. So I'm there and our cinematographer is Bill Pope.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Bill Pope.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And I say, bill, what other work you've done? Oh, well, I filmed the Matrix. It was like, can I touch you? Right. So I couldn't stop talking about the Matrix with him. Then I was wondering, can I get to do that in the cosmos? What can he do for me?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Bullet time. In the cosmos?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Do some bullet time. Surely you got something up your sleeve Right. Where I can do something cool.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But then I. I'd learned. I'd forgotten how.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That you were filming the signal.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The signal. Not too far. In the nearby city.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. In Albuquerque.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

In Albuquerque, yes. Yes. Because I was outside of town and near Santa Fe. And the point is, I. What was it? But then I. I forgot. Then I connected with you.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Bill Pope connected us somehow. Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But I brought you back. And then you hadn't seen him in a while.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I hadn't seen him in years.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah. So there was like time out on the set of Cosmos and the three of us just boogie down for a bit. Yeah, that was fun.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And there was a beautiful sort of rainstorm that was approaching the studio where you guys were shooting.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. What's fun is. Cause you have vistas to the horizon. You see the rainstorm kick up the dust.

[Laurence Fishburne]

We could see it coming.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And it was like something out of a.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And then you see the coloration of the sky, the pinks and the blues. Then you're reminded this is where Georgia O'Keefe. Where do you think she got her colors from?

[Laurence Fishburne]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It was her life. Horizons. Skies.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So, yeah. And I'm. I'm delighted that we've been friends since then.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Me, too, man. I really, I. Because again, I'm. I've always been interested in. In science and astronomy and the future and what it's going to look like and obviously science fiction.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes, clearly.

[Laurence Fishburne]

So to have befriended you and to learn so much stuff from you, you know, even when we're not sitting down. Like just the fact that you came back with Cosmos. Cause I watched Cosmos as a child.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, yeah. Carl Sagan. Right.

[Laurence Fishburne]

We both watched that as children. It was so inspiring to think of not just the world, but the cosmos in that larger sense.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

What it did was it wasn't just a separate subject that you study and then return back to your home base. It folded it in to not only your knowledge base, but your state of mind.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. It opened your mind to the possibility.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

In a way that you can't even think of that series as a documentary. We need a different word for it because.

[Laurence Fishburne]

Absolutely right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because the documentary. Let me sit down and let me watch this documentary.

[Laurence Fishburne]

When I come up with the word, I'll let you know, please. And if you come up with a better one, then you can have the CNN gig.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Horse training on the deep voice.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And this has been startalk.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, and then say, as always, I bid you to keep looking up. Okay, go.

[Laurence Fishburne]

And as always, I bid you to keep looking up.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All right, good back.

[Laurence Fishburne]

That's a wrap.