Making Science Cool, with Jeff Goldblum

Summary

StarTalk Radio: "Making Science Cool, with Jeff Goldblum"

Host: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Guest: Jeff Goldblum
Special Guest: Ross McPhee, Paleontologist at the American Museum of Natural History
Release Date: August 1, 2025

---

1. Redefining the Scientist Archetype

Neil deGrasse Tyson opens the episode by highlighting Jeff Goldblum's iconic portrayal of scientists with a unique swagger in blockbuster films like Independence Day and Jurassic Park. Tyson reflects on how Goldblum's characters broke stereotypes, presenting scientists as charismatic and engaging figures rather than the traditional, reserved archetype.

[02:55] Jeff Goldblum: "Well, it was beautifully scripted. You know, I'm sure you read Michael Crichton's book. Yeah, I'll bet... I could hip it up a little."

Ross McPhee echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the importance of making scientists relatable and engaging to the public.

---

2. The Evolution of "Geek" Culture

The conversation delves into the evolution of the term "geek" and its association with intelligence and attractiveness. Goldblum challenges traditional labels, advocating for the appreciation of intelligence as inherently "sexy."

[04:28] Neil deGrasse Tyson: "Intelligence as a point of sexiness."

[04:31] Jeff Goldblum: "Well, I don't call a smart person a geek... geeks were the people who bit for entertainment, bit heads off of live chickens."

Tyson and McPhee discuss the societal shift towards valuing scientific intellect, moving away from outdated stereotypes.

---

3. Jurassic Park and Scientific Ethics

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the ethical implications of scientific advancements, as inspired by Goldblum's line in Jurassic Park: "You scientists are so preoccupied with whether or not you could. You didn't stop and think if you should."

[10:04] Jeff Goldblum: "We shouldn't deprecate science at all, we shouldn't indict science at all... the exploitation and the non-ethical use of it for profit... must be fought with every breath in our bodies."

Tyson and McPhee explore how science fiction mirrors real-world ethical dilemmas, stressing the responsibility of scientists to consider the broader impacts of their work.

---

4. De-Extinction: Possibility and Ethics

Ross McPhee introduces the concept of de-extinction—bringing back extinct species through genetic technologies. The discussion covers the feasibility of resurrecting creatures like the T. Rex or the dodo bird and the moral responsibilities that accompany such endeavors.

[20:19] Ross McPhee: "De extinction is the idea of bringing back species populations that are no longer with us because they've disappeared... were we responsible? A lot of people think so. So do we owe it to woolly mammoths?"

The panel debates whether reviving extinct species serves scientific curiosity or poses unforeseen ecological risks.

---

5. Chaos Theory and the Butterfly Effect

The episode transitions to an exploration of chaos theory, featuring insights from Rafael Chapp, an economist specializing in complexity and emergence. The discussion ties back to Goldblum's portrayal of chaos theory in Jurassic Park, emphasizing its real-world applications and philosophical implications.

[31:24] Rafael Chapp: "The sensitivity to initial conditions, in popular terms, that's called the butterfly effect. [...] A butterfly with the wing can have a really huge impact in another side of the world."

Goldblum reflects on the unpredictability of life's outcomes, drawing parallels between personal decisions and larger, chaotic systems.

[29:33] Neil deGrasse Tyson: "One little thing... How different your life would be from that one little change."

---

6. Cultivating Curiosity in Youth

Jeff Goldblum shares his philosophy on nurturing curiosity in children, advocating for an environment where young minds can explore and learn without excessive constraints.

[46:57] Jeff Goldblum: "My curiosity... I see my kids. I got a three year old and a one year old... something like that, yes."

The conversation highlights the importance of fostering a sense of wonder and exploration, essential traits for future scientists and innovators.

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7. Extinction Events and Their Causes

Ross McPhee provides an overview of past mass extinction events, distinguishing those caused by extraterrestrial impacts from those driven by terrestrial phenomena like supervolcanoes.

[43:18] Ross McPhee: "Now the thinking is going to Earth processes, particularly the release of tremendous amounts of lava, tremendous amounts of magma, super volcanoes... has driven at least some Earth's trying to kill us."

This segment underscores the complex interplay of factors leading to mass extinctions and the ongoing scientific efforts to understand them.

---

8. Defending Earth from Asteroids

The discussion shifts to planetary defense, featuring Kelly Fast, Program Manager at NASA’s Planetary Defense Coordination Office. Tyson and Goldblum explore NASA’s strategies for detecting and mitigating potential asteroid threats.

[40:04] Kelly Fast: "The first step... is to find them before they find us... The DART mission... is in development to demonstrate a mitigation technique."

The panel debates the likelihood of early detection and the technological advancements necessary to protect Earth from such catastrophic events.

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9. Final Reflections on Science and Society

In the closing segment, Tyson reflects on the resilience of species like dinosaurs and the pivotal role of intelligent life in shaping Earth's future.

[54:16] Neil deGrasse Tyson: "We have the technology, we have the intelligence to avoid that fate. We can deflect an asteroid, we can develop a viral serum. We can be good caretakers of the earth that we are borrowing from our descendants."

This concluding thought reinforces the episode's central theme: the profound responsibility that comes with scientific knowledge and technological capability.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jeff Goldblum:

  "We must learn how to resolve differences nonviolently. And even though the universe may be a violent place and a hostile place, we shouldn't... figure out how to arm ourselves and survive against the hostile universe."
  [38:14]

• Rafael Chapp:

  "The sensitivity to initial conditions, in popular terms, that's called the butterfly effect."
  [31:24]

• Ross McPhee:

  "De extinction is the idea of bringing back species populations that are no longer with us because they've disappeared."
  [20:19]

---

Conclusion

In "Making Science Cool," Neil deGrasse Tyson and Jeff Goldblum engage in a multifaceted discussion that intertwines pop culture, scientific ethics, and the awe-inspiring complexities of the universe. Through conversations with experts like Ross McPhee and perspectives on chaos theory and extinction events, the episode underscores the pivotal role of curiosity, responsibility, and innovation in advancing our understanding of life and the cosmos.

For those passionate about science and its intersection with everyday life, this episode offers a rich tapestry of insights, humor, and thoughtful discourse, making complex topics accessible and entertaining.

Transcript

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Hey, StarTalkins. Neil here. You're about to listen to an episode specially drawn from our archives to serve your cosmic curiosities. Check it out. Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. My co host, tonight's comedian, Chuck Nice.

[Star Trek Ad]

Hey, hey.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Chuck in the house. Tweeting a Chuck Nice comic.

[Star Trek Ad]

Thank you, sir. Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And also joining us tonight is a colleague of mine at the museum, paleontologist Ross McPhee. Ross. Ross. Oh, boom, boom.

[Ross McPhee]

Thank you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You're curator of mammals right here at the American Museum of Natural History. And you travel the world digging up fossils to learn about extinct animals. Is that like what your business card says?

[Ross McPhee]

It should. It should. That'd be good lines.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Very good. So thanks for joining us on StarTalk. We're featuring my interview with geek actor Jeff Goldblum. And he plays scientists with a swagger right. From the blockbuster film Independence Day and of course in Jurassic Park. So I asked him how his sort of iconic scientist character in Jurassic park came to be. Let's check it out.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Well, it was beautifully scripted. You know, I'm sure you read Michael Crichton's book. Yeah, I'll bet. You know, and then Steven Spielberg and they'd written a beautiful script, so it was really that character. But I did try to influence. I did have this idea that, you know, I could hip it up a little.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, right, because there's swagger. You know, swagger isn't always in the script.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Well, it wasn't. Well, it was maybe a little bit that Richard Attenborough has that line, you know, I bring a scientist, you bring a rock star. So somebody calls me a rock star. So I thought, hey, I have license to shop for a jacket that I think will be right. I kind of had lobbied for a few articles of clothing.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What year was that? That was 90, 93 ish. That may have been the first ever badass geek person portrayed in movies. I mean, think about that. Well, there you are, brilliant mathematician. You're glib, you' you've got philosophical points. You're good looking and you got a little kind of, you got presence. This was breaking stereotypes, I think.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Yeah, I think so too. And it's important, I'm sure you have feelings about this. I'm passionate that smart people not be undervalued.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, smart people have feelings too. And they have attitudes and things that are never, not previously ever explored.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Right. And their contribution of intelligence is in itself sexy and valuable and.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Good point. Intelligence as a point of sexiness.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Yeah. You're using geeky. I see now. You're. Because you're using geeky to kind of agree with the conventional thinking of geeky. Smart is geeky. I don't call a smart person a geek. You know, geek is originally. The term is usually. It originally comes from circus life. You know, geeks were the people who bit for entertainment, bit heads off of live chickens.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I didn't know that.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Well, I think that's where it comes from. And then it became, you know, a smart person. But, you know, the next logical step is the movie idiocracy where anybody who can read a little bit is called oh, you're a sissy or you're a geek. You know, that's where that goes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. No, no, it's a future where there's the dumbing down of the population of the world.

[Jeff Goldblum]

We see where that goes and could go further. No, no, we must uphold and as you do better than I do, intelligence as beautiful, sexy, powerful, virile.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Chuck. Did he, did he, did he pull this off in the movie?

[Star Trek Ad]

I don't know, man. I think he's super sexy. You know what I mean? Ok. Did you notice his reaction though when you said he was sexy?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, I said good looking.

[Star Trek Ad]

You said he was like.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, right. So, Ross.

[Ross McPhee]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What was your reaction to Jurassic park when it came out?

[Ross McPhee]

Implausible but great.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Impossible. Implausible, not impossible.

[Ross McPhee]

Oh, well, you want to make a fine distinction. You're not going to bring dinosaurs back with ancient DNA.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You're such a spoilsport.

[Ross McPhee]

So what? The show as science fiction, emphasis on fiction, was fantastic. In fact, science in a real sense did play a role. Things were explained. It wasn't just assumed.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, right. There was that descriptive section where they talk about evolution and embryos and this sort of thing. So that had some academic value?

[Ross McPhee]

Yeah, I think so.

[Star Trek Ad]

No, you don't, Ross.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I know.

[Star Trek Ad]

I know why you. I don't know why you exactly. You just let us know exactly how you really felt, you know? But no, here's.

[Ross McPhee]

Here's what I liked about Jeff Goldblum. He put the badass in glasses. Thank you. Thank you.

[Star Trek Ad]

That's called Bad Glass.

[Ross McPhee]

So professional scientists have the reputation that they can't talk to the public. Right. You've got this guy quite in contrast, Rockstar. Yeah, but I don't think that's true. And I think it's increasingly true that we're very interested in talking to the public. And whether that comes through from interviews like this that we're going to have or through movies, there's an interest. There's practically even a need for people to be better informed about science. It's just interesting. And that's the point.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So how about the part where they're just dusting a fossil and the fossil just pops out of the ground?

[Ross McPhee]

Could happen.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Really? Cause I've seen videos of you guys. That's a hard thing, getting a fossil out of the ground.

[Ross McPhee]

It can be. It really depends. So if you're talking Cretaceous dinosaurs, it's mostly gonna be rock. Jackhammers are the sorts of things that you need most of the time. But I deal with much more recently extinct organisms and like the ones from.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The movie the Ice Age, right?

[Ross McPhee]

Yeah. Perhaps not cartoon characters. I was thinking more 10,000 BC.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay. Yeah.

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Not as much fun as the little squirrel with the nut, but that's okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You had saber toothed tigers then, didn't you? No.

[Ross McPhee]

10,000 years ago, we certainly did.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Okay.

[Ross McPhee]

And mammoths and other things that have disappeared.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We were coming out of the Ice Age. So I just arrived at this museum when Jurassic park came out. So I only got sort of bits of the mood and emotion. Did we see institutionally a rise in public interest towards dinosaurs after Jurassic park came out?

[Ross McPhee]

Absolutely. You know, up until that time, mammals sort of ruled in paleontology. Dinosaurs were seen as kind of an evolutionary dead end. But with Jurassic park and the animations showing that dinosaurs were in some cases extremely athletic, able to move around at great speed and things like that, Bite lawyers. This really changed things.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So since then, what are some big discoveries in the last 20 years?

[Ross McPhee]

Let's say for things that I'm working on, the biggest change, I guess would be moving not away from bones, but toward genetics, so that we're able to get ancient DNA from things that are not too old and do increasingly a lot with them. We're learning a heck of a lot about species that are no longer with us as to basic physiological processes and things of this nature that we never would have guessed we could get just from bones. From bones. There'd be no way.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So In Jurassic Park 1, there's the now famous line uttered by Jeff Goldblum, which is, you scientists are so preoccupied with whether or not they could. They didn't stop and think if they should. So let's start out with Jeff's reaction to the ethical implications of that line. Check it out.

[Jeff Goldblum]

That's very interesting. I want to talk to you about that and canvas your feeling because I'm interested in seeing what I can contribute to that conversation.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It would be nice. Cause you started it.

[Ross McPhee]

Right?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Jeff Goldblum]

So maybe you can help me. Maybe before I leave here you can even enhance my thinking about it. So here's what my current thinking is that. Well, I'll just tell you what's happened in this last. In this next version that's coming out without ruining anything. We talk about some issues that came up in the one 25 years ago. I talk again about science and ethics issues.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I like that. How polite dinosaurs eating people, we call these issues.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Well, that's true, but especially these issues that I am thinking about and my character talks about, which is ethics around science and all that. That line and the one 20 years ago. Maybe now we wanna tweak it a little bit where there's no ambiguity in what we're saying, which is that we shouldn't deprecate science at all, we shouldn't indict science at all. And we tweaked my little speech. So I say something about whether it's still in the movie glorious science. I say something about the wonderful investigative curiosity and the continuum of the scientific approach is a wonderful thing. But it's the exploitation and the non ethical use of it for profit. Screwy entertainment, cheap entertainment, heaven forbid. Militarism, et cetera, nationalism, you know, et cetera, that must be fought with every breath in our bodies. Something like that.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

All of those thoughts went through my head when I heard you utter that line 20 years ago.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Really? Except one could. No, no, I was saying scientists yeah, These scientists, these Frankenstein, Dr. Frankensteins, they gotta be. You gotta watch those guys.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. I said to myself, he's blaming scientists.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Oh, good.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And in that first one, which I.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Don'T wanna do now, Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And I said, scientists don't actually have the power that you think. Their actual power comes from governments and legislations and funding sources that have priorities that go beyond what a scientist does in the lab and then they decide how they want to use it. But I said, all right, it's a movie. We got to let the line go.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Yeah, but now.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So I said to myself at the.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Time, yes, see if you like. I don't know if you've seen it yet, but see if you like this new one where I think we're clearer and we tweaked that. So don't blame science.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Ross, how do you feel about the urge of some to blame science for the fallout of the applications of science in the world?

[Ross McPhee]

Here's how I feel about it. It's yin yang. You want progress? Progress comes from science. Can it be misused? Of course it can. And there is nothing that an individual can do except be well informed on what the issues are. So when this kind of misuse does come up, like in weaponization of space, that people speak out against it, that they're an informed electorate.

[Star Trek Ad]

I'm blaming scientists.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Why?

[Ross McPhee]

Well, you can do that.

[Star Trek Ad]

Yeah, I certainly know.

[Ross McPhee]

But it's like this young man said, they're powerless. Their products are used by people who do have power.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So do you have issues with Goldblum movies for this reason?

[Star Trek Ad]

No, I just love the fact that he called getting eaten by dinosaurs issues.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So, Ross, in your field, do you have controversial ethical issues going on right now? And I think specifically about. Because you said, now it's a genetic analysis, not just what bones fit together in a puzzle. So about cloning, gene editing, that sort of thing.

[Ross McPhee]

Here's the idea that we can now go into the genome to the genetic material of a species and alter it in a way that is favorable to us or perhaps favorable to the organism. It depends on what the problem is. So in a way, you're playing God. Now, that brings up all kinds of issues about what the heck you think you're doing. My view of it is nature by itself is not subject to human ethics. It's not that there's good and that there's bad. It's just the way it is.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It just is.

[Ross McPhee]

But to the degree that we interfere with nature, which is inevitable given the numbers of us on the planet, you have to ask the question, where do you want to stop? And where I personally want us to stop is to intervene as little as possible in the parts of the planet where we haven't made a complete screw up. So that includes parts of the ocean. It also includes parts of the continents where humans are not as ubiquitous as they are in most other places. Make those sanctuaries, make them safe. Keep us out.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No humans allowed.

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Beautiful. That's beautiful.

[Star Trek Ad]

Yeah, that's very nice.

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I'm ready.

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Survivor's ready.

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Now.

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Now it's back.

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great.

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[Jeff Goldblum]

And I'm a Proud supporter of StarTalk on Patreon.

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This is StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

De Extinction. Would you bring back T. Rex, the dodo bird or none of the above?

[Jeff Goldblum]

I think the world has to work for everyone.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Nice. Very important.

[Jeff Goldblum]

I think that's a good credo.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Very important.

[Jeff Goldblum]

The world should work forever. Let's make a world that works for everyone. Whatever works means. And I think we know what that means. Nothing mysterious about that. Works for everyone. So in thinking just about the. This is not to poo poo my successful franchise. Participation in the successful franchise. But no, no. Well, my character says this is a bad idea. It's a bad idea. Evolution had its say. Darwin is a hero of mine. Evolution had its say and the dinosaurs went out from the universe.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's their shakes.

[Jeff Goldblum]

A story that the universe told. And now it's our turn. And like that. And yes, especially you want to bring it back for cause you want to make an amusement park. You want to sell some tickets because you know, I would say no. I would say no about that, certainly. Now if it's just pure knowledge, but like splitting the atom, is there something about resurrecting that means we could bring back everybody who's ever died? I guess. Or every species that's ever been, you know, we'd have to talk about that. But before we get into dinosaurs, aren't there. Aren't elephants. Aren't all the species, not only the beautiful human species, but every other species? Aren't they infinitely mysterious and magical and worthy of our respect and awe and protection? Elephants, you know what we're doing with elephants that are. If we're just talking about, hey, we like dinosaurs because they're big. We have big creatures here and in the oceans and all the creatures there, shouldn't we tend to those first and make sure that we protect them, not put them in zoos, not make money off of them, but just make sure we all that it works for everybody.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And we all get along.

[Jeff Goldblum]

That would be my moral instinct. I'm no doctor.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, you played one on tv, I.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Play one on tv.

[Star Trek Ad]

Very nice, Very nice.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Ross, you specialize in this. Among your multiple specialties that I know of, one of them is extinction and de extinction. So tell me how de extinction would work.

[Ross McPhee]

Very simply, de extinction is the idea of bringing back species populations that are no longer with us because they've disappeared. So think woolly mammoths. We've been talking about woolly mammoths as a good example. The Last of them died out on continents about 10,000 years ago. There were remnant populations on islands until about 4,000 years ago. But they're gone. And the question accordingly is, were we responsible? A lot of people think so. So do we owe it to woolly mammoths? To the degree that we can bring them back. To bring them back, because we're accountable.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Whereas we're not accountable for the death of T. Rex. So let him stay dead.

[Ross McPhee]

That's right. Well, it goes beyond.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's right. Did you hear he said that? That's right.

[Ross McPhee]

It goes beyond that. Because ancient DNA, which is the building blocks that you'd have to use for the experiments to bring the animals back has a life of no more than a million years. So you're not gonna go back 66 plus million years and bring back the dinosaurs? That was always the fundamental problem with Jurassic Park.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so let's just imagine if we could bring back T. Rex. Should we?

[Ross McPhee]

What's it gonna do? What's its ecosystem function? It's gonna eat lawyers. Okay? What else is it gonna do? And the answer is nothing. It has no.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You're right. It'll be in a zoo.

[Ross McPhee]

It has no. Yes, it'll be in a zoo. Exactly. So it's going to be an exhibit like we have here at the American Museum. Except everything here is dead and stuffed. Which is a difference.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But you might consider Britain if we are entirely responsible. Our cave troglodyte ancestors are responsible for the extinction of the woolly mammoth. You feel some guilt there, I guess.

[Ross McPhee]

Well, that's the ethical question.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

See, I don't think we should bring it back because here, woolly mammoth, they were thriving during the Ice Age. We're gonna bring it back just in time for global warming. What the hell is that?

[Star Trek Ad]

They will be so uncomfortable. My God, it's hot. What have you done with the place?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I know. Yeah, right. So, Chuck, would you bring back animals? Chuck?

[Star Trek Ad]

I would bring back animals, but quite frankly, I. I like food. And so as a foodie, I would only bring back those that are delicious.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, well, how would you know what was delicious?

[Star Trek Ad]

I don't know. That is why I have a little game that I would like to show you right now.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Star Trek Ad]

Where Ross will tell me if these.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Animals are delicious or they tasty or not. Oh, they tasted.

[Star Trek Ad]

Could we bring it back to eat it? My first submission would be the Kleptodon. All right, first of all, I will tell you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Wait, is that a real. Ross, is that real?

[Star Trek Ad]

Is that real?

[Ross McPhee]

Yes, it is. It's A gigantic armadillo that lived in South America. Some also lived in North America. Some of them were upwards of 2,000 kilograms. So 4,000 pounds.

[Star Trek Ad]

4,000 pounds.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So a ton.

[Ross McPhee]

Yes. These are big armadillos.

[Star Trek Ad]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Ross McPhee]

Now, what would it be like for Chuck? I think it would be a lot like eating a tennis racket, frankly.

[Star Trek Ad]

Damn it.

[Ross McPhee]

If you just look at the beast, you can see that it's very heavily armored. There's bone sort of everywhere.

[Star Trek Ad]

Right.

[Ross McPhee]

Like a little tank.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Ross McPhee]

And in order to support that mass.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It needs really tough tissue.

[Ross McPhee]

Really tough. Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Good deduction.

[Star Trek Ad]

So it's not good. It's not good to eat.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So there you go. But could we bring it back?

[Ross McPhee]

The last of them died out about 10,000 years ago. It's within reach of ancient DNA.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So that's a yes?

[Ross McPhee]

That's a yes. As to. Could we. And then we go, Jeff Goldblum to say, should we.

[Star Trek Ad]

Ooh, I don't know. An animal that looks like Epcot Center. I think I want to bring it down.

[Ross McPhee]

That's good.

[Star Trek Ad]

All right, here's my next one, Megatherium.

[Ross McPhee]

Okay, Megatherium.

[Star Trek Ad]

Megatherium.

[Ross McPhee]

This is now getting very serious in body size. This could be upward of 4,000kg. So we're talking the size of the largest elephants that are around today. Wow. What I need to say is that this is a sloth. You know about tree sloths, right? Those are the only sloths that are still with us. They come in at five kilograms, so 11 pounds, this guy. A couple of orders of magnitude larger.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Jeez.

[Ross McPhee]

I think more tennis racket more than anything else.

[Star Trek Ad]

But once again, not a good. Doesn't taste good.

[Ross McPhee]

Well, I don't know.

[Star Trek Ad]

But easy to catch is a sloth.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So can we bring it back?

[Ross McPhee]

It's the same as the glyptodon. Died out 10,000 years ago. There's ancient DNA. I've worked on its ancient DNA. It's there to work on.

[Star Trek Ad]

It's within reach. Right on the question, boys. But don't worry, Megatherium. We gonna take our time bringing you back. Here's the last one.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Last one.

[Star Trek Ad]

And we talked on it. We touched on it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Wooly. Wooly.

[Star Trek Ad]

Should we. First of all, how would a Wooly taste? And I mean, if we were part of its extinction, I can only hope that we were eating it.

[Ross McPhee]

Well, you know, there are stories when these carcasses appear in places like Siberia, as they do from time to time.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

When they emerge from a receding glacier or something.

[Ross McPhee]

Yeah. Where they melt out of riverbanks. That's the commonest way. There are stories of people and dogs in particular of having had a steak or two. Now I personally have never done that, nor would I want to. I mean, think about it. This is something that's been dead 10,000 years. This is the worst road pizza you can imagine.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, my buddy Bill Nye the science guy has some thoughts on Jurassic park style de extinction. Let's check it out.

[Bill Nye]

We're all fascinated with dinosaurs. That's part of why the movie Jurassic park was such a hit. It's a classic and classic science fiction. Now keep in mind that science is not inherently good or bad. It's a process. But let's face it, in science fiction movies, we want to see scientists doing something dangerous. And those scientists are usually evil. But what if we could really do that Jurassic Park DNA thing and bring back an extinct species to de extinct some extraordinary animal? Well, I guarantee you we'd learn a lot about biology. We'd learn a lot about evolution and ourselves. But is it a good idea? What if we accidentally produced a population of vicious predators who would think nothing of biting your head off and chewing you up and spitting you out? Now that really would be scary. Fortunately, that technology is a long way off.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So up next in my interview with Jeff Goldblum, we discuss the butterfly effect when StarTalk returns.

[Ross McPhee]

This is StarTalk.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Welcome back to StarTalk. From the American Museum of Natural History right here in New York City. We're featuring my interview with actor Jeff Goldblum and I asked about his character in Jurassic park where he evokes the concept of chaos theory. Let's check it out. Did you have to do any homework to justify as an actor using the word chaos in a sentence?

[Jeff Goldblum]

Oh, you know, chaos itself or chaos theory. Chaos theory that I was talking about in that movie. You know, I did my due diligence. I'm nothing if not conscientious.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's good.

[Jeff Goldblum]

I'm a good worker. My dad was a work ethic person. He was a doctor. Yeah, I read that book and whatever else I could get my hands on in the time I had and tracked down a couple of pioneering high class, I was told, practitioners, good devotees and cause.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You delivered the line with some panache.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Well, you know, I knew enough to pretend like I can't. You know, when you play these parts, you realize, hey, I could never. I'm not a brain surgeon. These people have devoted. I'm not an astrophysicist, but I can be curious and I do enough in the Time, from the time I get the part to try, do my best at pretending well, so that I can credibly say whatever I say.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I think you pulled it off. Well, the chaos. I think in modern times. The word has less currency today than it did a couple of decades ago, unfortunately, because it's still a force to be reckoned with.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Is it? Is it in the world?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh, good. Yeah. Gaos theory is you can model a system that's very complex. You put in the initial conditions and watch it go and it makes a cloud. Or in the case of weather, you can make wind patterns and the butterfly effect. Yeah, that's what it comes down to. Right. And so then you say, okay, let me change these initial conditions by the tiniest amount and see if I can change the result by a little bit. So you change by a tiniest amount, you get a completely different result.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Can you imagine us in our lives when we say, hey, should I make this decision? Should I have that impossible emergencies of.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Branch points in our lives? So I guess that's a kind of a chaotic analogy. You don't know how different your life would be from that one little change.

[Jeff Goldblum]

If you've been one little thing.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

One little thing. Okay. Joining us to help make sense of chaos in chaos theory is economist Rafael Chapp. Welcome. You're a faculty member at the Brooklyn Institute for Social Research, and you teach a course called Chaos Theory, Complexity, Emergence and Chaos.

[Rafael Chapp]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So how do you explain Chaos theory to your students?

[Rafael Chapp]

Right, so in ordinary speech, chaos means disorder, lack of rules, lack of order. But Chaos theory is a bit more subtle and it gives us a new understanding of dynamical deterministic systems. Dynamical means you have variables, they change over time. Deterministic means if you know everything about the system, state of the system, the functions at any time, the equations unambiguously tell you what happens next. And only one thing can happen. So there's no room for randomness. And yet these systems can sometimes behave in ways that seem to be. Appear to be random and unpredictable. Some examples of chaotic motion, the drip of water in a faucet, the oscillation of a double rod pendulum. The motion of a moon of Saturn called Hyperion. It's a little rock that just moves erratically, but also climate, weather.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So these are very diverse manifestations of chaos theory in our lives and in the world.

[Rafael Chapp]

Indeed, you can find it in many places.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And you teach economics, Correct? We don't want to hear that there's chaos in economics. We don't want to know that. Please.

[Star Trek Ad]

My 401k is tentative as.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So tell me about the butterfly effect.

[Rafael Chapp]

So the sensitivity to initial conditions, in popular terms, that's called the butterfly effect. That's really what has captured our imagination. And it comes from the title of a paper by a gentleman named Edward Lorenz who presented. Presented this paper at a conference in the early 70s. And the title was, does the flap of a butterfly wing in Brazil set off a tornado in Texas? But the idea that's captured here is really the fact that a very seemingly inconsequential event. Right. A butterfly with the wing, can have a really huge impact in another side of the world. It's very poetic. That's the butterfly effect.

[Star Trek Ad]

Exactly. Which is why I hate butterflies. Hate them. They're nothing but tiny little colorful bats.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So to Ross, does chaos play a role in extinction? Could there be some series of events that just go out of control and gone as a species?

[Ross McPhee]

Well, I don't think that it's necessarily as ordered as chaos as Rafael was just talking about, but it could be similar in some ways. So let's go back to dinosaur days, since that's what we've been talking about. About 75% of everything living at the time disappeared. But that means 25% survived.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You're talking about the 65 million years ago. Yeah, yeah.

[Ross McPhee]

So who is that 25%? It's all over the place. So, for example, crocodiles survived, whereas a lot of other groups that are reptiles, including everything except birds, disappeared. Now, why should that be the case? Why should everything that's sort of on the wrong side of the fence or the wrong side of the railway tracks, in the case of dinosaurs, have disappeared? You had dinosaurs by the end of the Cretaceous, 66 million years ago, they were the size of chickens as well as the Tyrannosaurus. So size is not the issue. There was something going on there physiologically. So they didn't make it. Birds did. And there were feathered dinosaurs that were not avian. My point is that people like me spend a lot of time trying to sort out logically why these things disappeared. And maybe the logic is not there that these catastrophic effects were so general that in some cases you just had bad luck, and in other cases you made it for similar reasons that you had good luck, but it had nothing to do with anything else.

[Star Trek Ad]

I'm sure the dinosaurs are very happy to hear that right now. Sorry, guys, you just had bad luck.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So, Rafael, people generally think of chaos as something bad. Like you said earlier, we want to avoid chaos in our daily lives. But is There a way to think of chaos as something good?

[Rafael Chapp]

I think the reason that chaos is bad, we tend to think of that as something bad is because order gives us a sense of security, safety. And there's an old philosophical idea of chaos. And for the Greeks, it was this state of the world before creation. So it was a real placeholder for the mystery of the universe. Everything that makes us uncomfortable, we put that label on it in terms of our daily lives, chaos is everywhere in simple systems. It doesn't have to be a lot of variables. And it can also, it can be found everywhere. So you turn on your faucet in your bathroom, the water, that's chaotic. In your bathtub, it can. That's chaotic. In your kitchen, you whisk some egg whites, that's chaotic. You take some dough, you fold it and stretch it, that's chaotic. Your brain, your brain waves don't believe me.

[Star Trek Ad]

Oh, I'm so with you.

[Rafael Chapp]

Your heart rate, if it becomes chaotic, you're in trouble, you have a heart attack.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so what you're saying is we are living with chaos on the assumption that it's bad, but in fact it's a fundamental dimension of life itself.

[Rafael Chapp]

Well, there's the question of the implication of the butterfly effect in our daily lives, in our decisions going forward.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Rafael Chapp]

You know, one interpretation could be if the long term consequences can be predicted, it doesn't really matter what I do. So, like, I can do whatever. Or you could think about it in terms of, well, seemingly inconsequential things that I do in ordinary life can actually change the world. They can matter a great deal. They can be that bifurcation of the world into a different future. So that puts a lot of pressure on us. Right. It can be nerve wracking and maybe paralyzing.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's a pressure. It's a pressure that you ought to be able to confront in life. Otherwise you're a victim of your future rather than a master of it.

[Rafael Chapp]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, Rafael, thank you for joining us on StarTalk.

[Rafael Chapp]

Thank you so much.

[Progressive Ad]

This episode is brought to you by FX's alien Earth. From creator Noah Harley and executive producer Ridley Scott comes the first television series inspired by the legendary Alien film franchise. A spaceship crash lands on Earth, bringing five units unique and deadly species more terrifying than anyone could have ever imagined. And a technological advancement marks a new dawn in the race for immortality. FX's Alien Earth premieres August 12th on FX and Hulu. This is an ad for the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful. But that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Big or or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game with your mum or grabbing a coffee with your dog, earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Pandora makes it easy for you to find your favorite music, discover new artists.

[Star Trek Ad]

And genres by selecting any song or album, and will make you a personalized station for free download on the Apple.

[Jeff Goldblum]

App Store or Google Play and enjoy.

[Star Trek Ad]

The soundtrack to your life.

[Jeff Goldblum]

We must learn how to resolve differences nonviolently. And even though the universe may be a violent place and a hostile place, we shouldn't, like Independence Day, figure out how to arm ourselves and survive against the hostile universe. We should revolve as a species, as a peaceful species.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

However, what will happen before the Martians come? Yes, let me double check. When the Martians are coming, what will happen before the Martians come is that an asteroid will come.

[Star Trek Ad]

Right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

We will need the power, the wisdom, the energy, the financing to deflect the asteroid, lest we go extinct, as did the dinosaurs.

[Jeff Goldblum]

So that's my question. So when they're developing the bomb, maybe they didn't think about it then, but there is a use. You think you could. Are you saying that with a nuclear weapon you could.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

There are multiple ways you can. If you want to destroy the thing in space, yes. A nuclear weapon is our best understanding of how to do that. But if you want to have it not hit us, you don't need to destroy it, you just deflect it.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Okay, but with this technology, no, there's.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Kindler, gentler ways to it. You just sort of shove it a little.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Amazing.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It doesn't take much. And if you do it early enough, that gentle push can completely miss Earth.

[Jeff Goldblum]

So interesting.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Joining us to discuss defending Earth from asteroids is planetary astronomer Kelly Fast. Kelly, welcome. Thanks for joining us. You are program manager in the Planetary Defense Coordination office at NASA headquarters. That sounds really badass. Protecting Earth, somebody's got to do. It's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it. Somebody's got to do it. So what is NASA doing to defend the planet? And against what? Against asteroids or anything else?

[Starbucks Ad]

Well, against near Earth asteroids, the one that end up in our neighborhood. Like you mentioned, you want to do something early. And so the first step in doing that is to find them before they find us. And so NASA's Planetary Defense Coordination Office supports efforts that survey the skies looking for near Earth asteroids, cataloging them, then also calculating their orbits to figure out where they're going to be in the future. As you know, two bodies in the same space at the same time is not good. That's bad. And then also looking at mitigation possibilities should it become necessary to get them before they get out.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You sound confident because you're like, okay, but we have funding to detect them, but not funding to deflect them, correct?

[Starbucks Ad]

Well, it's actually there are studies.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's a no. That's a no. That was a no very much.

[Starbucks Ad]

No. That's not actually. The DART mission is a NASA mission in development. Dart dart it stands for the Double Asteroid Redirection Test. And it is in development to demonstrate a mitigation technique. So that should it become necessary to do it one of these days we'll at least have looked at how that technique performs. And in this case it would be the kinetic impact technique. I mean you had mentioned, you know, if you could do this early, if you find them and you know well ahead of time, you don't have to deflect it a whole lot in order for it to miss Earth in the future.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So how likely are we to detect a bad asteroid early enough?

[Starbucks Ad]

Well, that's the thing. The larger near Earth asteroids, 1 km and larger in size, the ones that would have global constants, the nice thing is they're the low hanging fruit. There are fewer of them, they're larger, they're easier to find and probably have a better handle on that population. But it's the, for once it's worked.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

In our favor, Right? Yeah. The big bad ones are easy to detect. Yeah.

[Starbucks Ad]

But as you get smaller and smaller, there are more and more of them and it's harder and harder to find them. And so when you're talking about a size range now that 140 meters and larger, let's say that could have regional impact should it hit Earth. That population is estimated to be more like 25,000. And after 20 years of surveying the skies, even though capabilities have gotten better with telescopes and doing this from the ground, there still are about two thirds of that population left to be found. And so that's the thing, being concerned about what we have yet to find so that at least there are some things in the toolbox should this become an issue.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Ross, you study extinction and so of the. Are there five. There have been multiple extinction episodes, but five major ones if I can. The big mass extinction, the big Mass extinction. How many of those implicate asteroids as a source?

[Ross McPhee]

Well, it's interesting. When it was first proposed with evidence in the early 1980s, people started thinking, okay, it wasn't just the dinosaurs. It was the same sort of thing again and again. You'd have these extraterrestrial visitors that blew the place up.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But then you don't mean aliens, you mean asteroids.

[Ross McPhee]

In this case, yes, but it didn't work out that way. So you have two problems. You've got big extinctions without any correlated or obvious impact or anywhere. And you've also got impactors, some of which must have been very large in size that didn't do anything.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, you have a smoking gun with no damage. Yeah, yeah. So that's awkward.

[Ross McPhee]

That's very awkward. So now the thinking is going to Earth processes, particularly the release of tremendous amounts of lava, tremendous amounts of magma, super volcanoes. Super volcanoes, along with all the noxious gases. So you get widespread poisoning of both the air and the sea. And that, that's the thing that has driven at least some Earth's trying to kill us.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, NASA can't help that. Well, Independence Day, it was aliens that were coming to destroy the Earth. And Jeff Goldblum and I discussed the idea of contacting aliens that could be hostile. So let's check it out. You don't give strangers in the street your email address, much less the return address to Earth to aliens.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Yeah, but wait a minute.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

No, no, there's no but, wait a minute to that sentence. Well, that's a totally good sentence that requires no modification.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Well, but sir, But Doctor, let me see. Yes, that's what we do. And I wouldn't. I agree. I wouldn't.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You don't do that. They're your own species.

[Jeff Goldblum]

I'm not gonna tell him my adventures.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

They're your own species.

[Jeff Goldblum]

That's true. Okay, but we're a funny species and that's interspecies. I don't know. Especially the aspiration to make contact. Come on. Yes. Can't we forego that paranoia which may not, which we know on Earth between ourselves is justified.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, it's justified because there's someone who you don't know who could do harm to you.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Yeah, but if they wanted to do harm, they could do so much harm that we can't do what we did in Independence Day. There's no. I will not build up our nuclear forces because who knows what. So I would not use it as a reason to weaponize and to further fund our weaponry. No, I think we have to err on the side of, hey, here we are. I don't know. What do you think? I mean, you're an expert. I would say, if I was gonna make the decision, if it was up to me, I'd say, yeah. Here we are. Here we are. Here's our address. Here's everything about us. You know, here's all our diseases, here's my medical records, here's my tax records. Whatever you wanna know.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Kelly. Kelly, what does NASA's Planetary Defense think about the several occasions and surely more to come, where we beam the return address of Earth out into space with the attempt to contact possibly hostile aliens? And we know the hostile because every movie except Spielberg's ET has them sucking our brains out.

[Starbucks Ad]

Well, that's what I was gonna say. I've seen Independence Day and I've seen enough science fiction movies to know that it's a really bad idea.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, you agree it's a bad idea?

[Starbucks Ad]

I agree it's a bad. But at least as far as NASA's Planetary Defense Coordination Office is concerned, we're concerned about the asteroids, about the hard stuff and not about the squishy stuff with tentacles. That's somebody else's job.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, up next in my interview with Jeff Goldblum, we discuss cultivating a curious mind. And Jeff expressed deep passion and interest in science and learning in our conversation. And I asked him where that curiosity began. Check it out. As an academic and as a scientist, I deeply respect curious minds. Where does that come from? Where's it come from?

[Jeff Goldblum]

I'd be remiss if I. Well, when I'm with somebody like you, who would I be? Shame on me if I didn't start to bubble with a little curiosity. You're a fountain. When you're right near the fountain, don't.

[Ross McPhee]

You get a little thirsty?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Fountain of curiosity.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Well, there you go. So my curiosity, well, I think it's in us. If we don't snip it off and. And undermine it and sabotage it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So it just never left you?

[Jeff Goldblum]

Something like that, yes. I see my kids. I got a three year old and a one year old. Two boys.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Whoa.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Well, it's in. It must be in us. They're not so special, I don't think, but boy, they go from one and.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Until they're three, half their curiosity would kill them. So it's up to you to prevent them from checking out the edge of the cliff.

[Jeff Goldblum]

That's our main job. It's a very.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. And then when they're 5, 6, 7, then they can be on Their own with reduced risk of them having the curiosity kill themselves. Many parents over constrain the curiosity.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Yeah. Over constrain their curiosity for safety reasons.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

For safety. Yeah. They think even something that we're just or for. They don't want to break something when, oh, the child is playing with a plate. Oh, don't touch that. You might break it. Maybe there's something to be learned if it breaks, it makes a sound. Something is hard, but then it's in a million pieces. The pieces can cut you. There's knowledge there.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Somebody told me that we think we adhere to this thing called rie rie, which is. Yes. Don't you teach them? They're doing physics, they're doing something.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Let them do it.

[Jeff Goldblum]

They're doing something that you don't even understand.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Free range children, all of that.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Yes. But after that, why do I show them? So that they can really. Well, I would show them. What I would show them is the entire series of Cosmos. I would show them you before I showed them any other so called wisdom literature or other. I'd say this is where you are, this is who you are. And this is what we know about.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Our place in the universe.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So, Ross, we have a mildly privileged position being experts in two fields that are intensely fascinating to children. Dinosaurs in space. So why do you think that is big.

[Star Trek Ad]

Okay, Big is good. I saw that movie.

[Ross McPhee]

That's why people love elephants and don't love rats. I do. Of course.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Part of me thinks that kids like our respective fields because they respect anything that can eat them. So their favorite dinosaur is going to be T. Rex and their favorite cosmic object is going to be a black hole.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Black hole.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Both of them will eat you.

[Ross McPhee]

It's a very depressing view, but I get it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Kelly, you have any thoughts on that?

[Starbucks Ad]

Certainly. There's always this curiosity about something, someplace that, that we want to go. And so space, it's obvious. Especially since you can see so much. You just go outside.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Anybody, you just go outside. Right.

[Starbucks Ad]

So you can't help but just want to go to a place that you can see and see.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So would you agree that kids who don't lose their curiosity as adults are scientists? Or rather that scientists are kids who never lost their curiosity?

[Starbucks Ad]

Oh, they're certainly kids and we're certainly kids. Absolutely.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

You feel the same way?

[Ross McPhee]

Yeah, I feel like I'm a superannuated kid all the time because I work in a place like I don't even.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Know what that word means.

[Star Trek Ad]

I was gonna say I ain't never heard A kid. Use the word annuated.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Mother. Mother.

[Star Trek Ad]

I'm feeling quite annuated right now.

[Ross McPhee]

Stick with me, I'll improve your potential. No, but you and I do have privileged positions because we work in a place here that is absolutely devoted to understanding the most complicated, the most interesting, the most diverse kinds of phenomena that people have ever dealt with. And that is a beautiful place to be in if you have that kind of attitude, where everything is novel, everything is interesting.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well, Jeff Goldblum, to my surprise, brought a copy of one of my books to the interview. The book he brought was Astrophysics for People in a Hurry.

[Star Trek Ad]

Yes.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And so he asked about my inspiration for writing it. Check it out. It's everything spiritually and intellectually mind blowing in the universe that I've collected into that volume.

[Jeff Goldblum]

Yes, and I love your. Because I've heard you on other times besides what I think you touch on in this. Do we need in order to be creative, inspired, spiritual, feel grateful, feel uplifted, ennobled, connected with each other, poetical, musical. Need we go any farther than the facts that have already been uncovered by you and your friends, by science and what's going on around us? No, of course not. We don't need to make up things or believe in things that are just fun to believe in just because we're lazy and we don't want to kind of investigate a little bit.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I agree with everything you just said and I can either add, neither add nor subtract from it.

[Jeff Goldblum]

I love you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Just some parting thoughts on our show today. Dinosaurs were around for hundreds of millions of years in some form or another, until all the ones we celebrate, especially the ones with big teeth, all went extinct 65 million years ago. So in fact, they were around for longer before they went extinct than the time that has elapsed since they went extinct. So if they didn't go extinct 65 million years ago, there's no reason to think they wouldn't still be here today. But what happened? We fear asteroids, yes. But an asteroid takes out the dinosaurs, pries open an ecological niche, enabling our mammal ancestors to evolve into something somewhat more ambitious than the rodents that they were at the time. So I think about it, wow. Can asteroids be all that bad? Can extinction be all that bad? We have the technology, we have the intelligence to avoid that fate. We can do better than the hand that nature deals us. We can deflect an asteroid, we can develop a viral serum. We can be good caretakers of the earth that we are borrowing from our descendants. Until that day comes our extinction is inevitable.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here, if you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically, it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.