StarTalk Radio: Solving AI’s Energy Problem with Kathryn Huff
Hosted by Neil deGrasse Tyson
Released on February 21, 2025

Introduction

In this special edition of StarTalk Radio, astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson explores the pressing issue of energy consumption driven by advancements in artificial intelligence (AI) and data centers. Joined by former stockbroker turned comedian Paul Mercurio and former soccer professional Gary O'Reilly, Tyson delves into the potential of nuclear energy as a sustainable solution. The episode features guest expert Kathryn Huff, an associate professor in the Department of Nuclear, Plasma, and Radiological Engineering at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and former Assistant Secretary for Nuclear Energy in the Department of Energy.

Opening Discussion: The Future of Energy and AI

The conversation kicks off with a humorous banter among the hosts about futuristic technologies like flying cars and the portability of nuclear reactors. Tyson sets the stage by highlighting the growing energy demands from data centers, AI, and cryptocurrency mining:

Neil deGrasse Tyson [00:12]: "Data centers are starting to chew up their share of the energy, and they're going to continue to do AI and bitcoin mining."

Paul Mercurio adds a comedic touch:

Paul Mercurio [00:18]: "And the right color bag to put your nuclear waste in when you put it out on a Sunday."

Gary O'Reilly underscores the importance of addressing these energy demands:

Gary O'Reilly [03:24]: "We do. [Nuclear energy is] safe, nuclear is safe, geothermal is safe. It's really the fossils you need to be worried about when you're talking about safety because they impact human health in a really demonstrable, clear way."

Introducing Kathryn Huff: An Expert on Nuclear Energy

Tyson introduces Kathryn Huff, emphasizing her extensive background in nuclear engineering and her role in the federal government:

Neil deGrasse Tyson [05:03]: "Catherine, could you just remind everybody the difference between fusion and fission?"

Kathryn Huff provides a clear explanation:

Kathryn Huff [05:31]: "In fission, which is conventional nuclear power here in the United States and around the world, you separate, you break apart a heavy atom like uranium 235 or plutonium 239, whereas fusion gains energy from the binding reaction between two light particles fusing."

Nuclear Energy: Fission vs. Fusion

Huff elaborates on the fundamental differences between fission and fusion, relating it to astrophysical phenomena:

Kathryn Huff [05:31]: "So you're talking about completely different ends of the periodic table, the forces that hold a nucleus together, the binding energy of that nucleus."

Tyson draws a parallel with stellar processes:

Neil deGrasse Tyson [06:21]: "In astrophysics, the peak of that curve, or depending if you plot the other way, the base of that curve is iron. And stars give up the ghost when they hit iron because you can't fizz it or fuse it and get energy out of it."

Safety and Public Perception of Nuclear Energy

The discussion shifts to public concerns regarding nuclear energy's safety compared to other energy sources. Huff presents data on deaths per terawatt-hour to contextualize nuclear energy's safety record:

Kathryn Huff [07:56]: "Nuclear is way, way, way down at the bottom, near, you know, slightly below solar and wind."

Paul Mercurio interjects humorously:

Paul Mercurio [08:15]: "Nuclear energy. You'll only die once in a while."

The hosts debate the interpretation of these metrics, with Huff emphasizing the stark differences when compared to fossil fuels:

Kathryn Huff [11:23]: "Renewables like wind and solar and geothermal and nuclear, they're all in the same category, which is just magnitudes and magnitudes lower than fossils."

The Role of Small Modular Reactors (SMRs) in Meeting Energy Demands

The conversation transitions to the potential of Small Modular Reactors (SMRs) to address the escalating energy needs:

Paul Mercurio [17:23]: "SMR stands for Small Modular Reactors. Did he get it right, Catherine?"

Huff discusses the advantages of SMRs, including their modularity and proximity to energy consumers like data centers:

Kathryn Huff [17:54]: "Transmission especially building new high voltage power lines to move gigawatts of power from a generator to a consumer is expensive. So co-locating data centers with smaller, more modular reactor builds has an advantage."

Recycling of Nuclear Fuel and Waste Management

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the recycling of spent nuclear fuel and managing radioactive waste. Huff explains the processes involved and the current state of recycling infrastructure:

Kathryn Huff [35:18]: "Spent fuel is actually a uranium oxide coming out of conventional reactors. ... It's contained in a canister that's steel and then concrete and layers upon layers of shielding."

Mercurio humorously suggests:

Paul Mercurio [36:17]: "So it'll be a time when I could take my nuclear waste to the dump on a Sunday."

Huff clarifies the complexities involved in recycling:

Kathryn Huff [36:54]: "First of all, the volume is pretty small to start with, but yeah, there's been a lot of work in fuel utilization so that the amount of fuel that you put in is used to the maximum extent practical."

Future of Nuclear Technology and Commercialization

The hosts explore the timeline and challenges of bringing advanced nuclear technologies, like SMRs and molten salt reactors, to commercial viability:

Paul Mercurio [46:20]: "How far are we actually away? These things are obviously being tested, but how far are we away from commercially being able to bring them to a situation where they go online?"

Huff provides an optimistic yet realistic outlook:

Kathryn Huff [46:36]: "The first couple are in the very early stages of construction and we're expecting them to be completed. Some of them hope for a five year construction timeline, but it'll probably be more like 10 years."

Addressing Geopolitical Concerns and Resource Availability

The episode also touches upon the geopolitical implications of uranium mining and the concentration of enrichment facilities:

Paul Mercurio [31:52]: "How do you factor that in? And should some other simultaneous technology be developed away from nuclear energy so that we're not so dependent on uranium and the potential [risks]?"

Huff highlights ongoing efforts to diversify and strengthen domestic enrichment capabilities:

Kathryn Huff [32:12]: "International collaboration has been necessary to ensure that, you know, if Russia, who dominated historically, conversion and enrichment capabilities in the last 20 years or so, if they decided not to sell to the United States, we needed to have more capabilities in the US and among our allies."

Final Thoughts: Envisioning a Sustainable Energy Future

As the discussion wraps up, Neil deGrasse Tyson offers a cosmic perspective on the evolution of energy consumption and its implications for future technologies:

Neil deGrasse Tyson [49:24]: "Every single one of those projections got wrong was the assumption that we'd have unlimited access to energy. ... Perhaps, though it's long overdue, we're on the doorstep of a future where we derive our energy from any one of a dozen ways, and we have as much of it as we need to do anything we want."

He commends Kathryn Huff for her insights and underscores the critical role of nuclear energy in achieving a sustainable and energy-rich future.

Notable Quotes

• Neil deGrasse Tyson [00:12]: "Data centers are starting to chew up their share of the energy, and they're going to continue to do AI and bitcoin mining."

• Kathryn Huff [05:31]: "In fission... you break apart a heavy atom like uranium 235 or plutonium 239, whereas fusion gains energy from the binding reaction between two light particles fusing."

• Kathryn Huff [07:56]: "Nuclear is way, way, way down at the bottom, near, you know, slightly below solar and wind."

• Kathryn Huff [11:23]: "Renewables like wind and solar and geothermal and nuclear, they're all in the same category, which is just magnitudes and magnitudes lower than fossils."

• Kathryn Huff [17:54]: "Co-locating data centers with smaller, more modular reactor builds has an advantage."

• Kathryn Huff [35:18]: "Spent fuel is actually a uranium oxide coming out of conventional reactors... it's contained in a canister that's steel and then concrete and layers upon layers of shielding."

• Kathryn Huff [46:36]: "The first couple [of reactors] are in the very early stages of construction and we're expecting them to be completed. Some of them hope for a five year construction timeline, but it'll probably be more like 10 years."

Conclusion

In this insightful episode, StarTalk Radio navigates the complex landscape of nuclear energy as a viable solution to the burgeoning energy demands of AI and data centers. Through expert analysis and engaging discussions, Neil deGrasse Tyson and his co-hosts illuminate the intricacies of nuclear technologies, safety concerns, and the future trajectory of energy sustainability. The episode serves as a compelling resource for listeners seeking to understand the pivotal role nuclear energy may play in shaping our technological and ecological future.

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