StarTalk Radio – The Anxious Generation with Jonathan Haidt
Host: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Guests: Jonathan Haidt (NYU social psychologist), Chuck Nice (comic co-host), Gary O’Reilly (former soccer pro)
Date: October 3, 2025
Overview
This episode of StarTalk Special Edition brings together astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, his comic co-hosts, and special guest Jonathan Haidt to grapple with one of the most urgent issues facing contemporary youth: the effects of social media and technology on mental health, as explored in Haidt's book The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness. The discussion is equal parts analytical, candid, and humorous, blending statistics and psychological insight with the hosts’ signature banter. Haidt lays out the hard data, cultural trends, and urgent recommendations for families, schools, and society to stem the mental health crisis afflicting today’s young people.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Mental Health Crisis: Timing & Magnitude
[06:01] – [08:44]
- Dramatic Spike: Haidt details how rates of anxiety, depression, and self-harm among teens—especially girls—remained stable until 2012–2013, then “shot up” suddenly, indicating a “switch was flipped.”
- Global Phenomenon: The same trends appeared simultaneously in the U.S., UK, Canada, and Australia, pointing to a cross-national cause—most likely technology, not politics or isolated cultural factors.
“It is normal for American girls. If you're a teenage girl, it is normal that you have been thinking about suicide. About 20% say that they've thought about suicide in the last year.” — Jonathan Haidt [10:13]
2. The Shift from ‘Discover’ to ‘Defend’ Mode in Young People
[08:58] – [14:13]
- Haidt uses psychological models:
- Behavioral Activation System (“discover mode,” open, exploratory)
- Behavioral Inhibition System (“defend mode,” anxious, risk-averse)
- Young people are “shifted over to defend mode,” with less willingness to take risks or try new things.
- Critique of Overprotection: The “coddling” of children (playgrounds made safer, fewer responsibilities, less independence) contributes greatly to later fragility and chronic anxiety.
3. The Role of Technology & Smartphones
[15:35] – [16:04]; [20:07] – [23:28]
- Overprotection in the Real World, Underprotection Online:
- Dangerous restriction of real-world independence since the 1980s due to litigation fears.
- Simultaneously, underprotection from harms online as smartphones/social media proliferated unchecked among youth.
- Social media is engineered to trigger adolescent vulnerabilities, playing on “fear of missing out” for profit.
“We cannot, of course, parents should set boundaries. Of course parents have ultimate responsibility. But the environment which we're trying to raise our kids now is so full of temptations, addictions and engineered social pressures that most parents … find themselves unable. … I blame, first and foremost a few tech companies.” — Jonathan Haidt [20:53]
- Tech companies recruit psychologists to optimize apps for maximal dopamine-driven engagement.
4. Brain Development & the Cost of Early Digital Immersion
[24:03] – [28:47]
- Haidt explains myelination and sensitive periods in brain development.
- Puberty is a crucial “lock-in” period for both social and cognitive skills.
“If you don’t get it right during puberty, there’s a good chance that this is going to be your setting for life. And that’s why it is so important that we not have children on social media in puberty. Wait until 16.” — Jonathan Haidt [26:53]
- Childhood has been “rewired” from in-person learning, play, and frustration to screen-based, algorithm-curated, dopamine-driven feedback.
5. The Social Comparison Trap
[31:08] – [34:07]; [53:21] – [56:32]
- Tyson: Can’t Gen Z simply be described as having a “different skill set”?
- Haidt argues the loss of physical, in-person practice in social skills has led to “more anxious, less competent” adults—the outcome is not just different, but worse.
- Social media (especially Instagram) is identified as a potent tool for destroying girls’ self-esteem through relentless comparison and performative interaction.
6. Good vs. Bad Screen Time
[48:01] – [51:00]
- Haidt distinguishes between “good” and “bad” digital engagement for kids:
- Good: Synchronous video calls, long-form stories/movies, direct calls—foster real connection.
- Bad: Social media with group texts, short-form algorithmic video (TikTok, Reels, Snap), interaction with strangers—breed anxiety, isolation, and risk.
- Haidt is clear: “Zero TikTok, Instagram Reels, YouTube shorts for kids—short videos are horrible.” [50:34]
7. Four-Step Solution to the Digital Childhood Crisis
[44:46] – [47:14]
- No smartphone before high school (“Flip phones are fine, phone watches are fine”)
- No social media before 16 (“Especially Instagram for girls, never before 16”)
- Phone-free schools (“It is completely insane that… kids all over the country were watching videos and TikTok and… porn during class”)
- Far more independence, free play, and real-world responsibility (“Let kids wander, play, be in neighborhoods—help them move around, not just sit at home or on a couch”)
8. The Class Divide & Future of Reform
[61:10] – [65:01]
- Most rapid change is among elite/educated parents, who are banding together for kid “phone pledges” and creating “playborhoods” with analog play and independence.
- Phone-free schools are a crucial lever for broad-based change, especially among less advantaged families still deeply affected by tech exposure.
- Tech privilege reverts: Once a class advantage, now a source of inequality as richer families restrict, poorer kids are more exposed.
9. AI, Chatbots, and the Coming Threat
[57:20] – [60:19]
- Haidt warns of “AI friends” becoming children’s companions, referencing Meta's stated goal to fill “friend gaps” with chatbots.
- Attacks the “chutzpah” of tech companies that have “created this loneliness—and now want to fill it with AI companions.”
“Meta is, I think, the biggest single contributor to the epidemic of teen loneliness… So I think it’s chutzpah of Meta to say we caused this problem and now we have a tech solution for it.” — Jonathan Haidt [58:17]
- AI chatbots in toys—Haidt urges “nobody should get their child a toy with AI in it. Nobody should do that. … We don’t have five years, we need to stop that in two or three months.” [66:15]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On parenting and societal blame:
“None of this is a criticism of them [Gen Z]. … We overprotected the hell out of them. … We did this to them.” — Jonathan Haidt [10:13]
- On the “drug dealer” economy:
“Suppose you're a 14 year old drug dealer. You could make more money than I could as a professor. … As a society, we protect children.” — Jonathan Haidt [56:45]
- On tech hypocrisy:
“The richest, most powerful people … protect their children from the technology. … They want your kids to use it.” — Jonathan Haidt [64:34]
- On the need for urgent action:
“If it doesn’t happen, the future is … social apocalypse, I would say. … We don’t have five years. We have to turn this around right away.” — Jonathan Haidt [65:59]
- On AI toys:
“Nobody should get their child a toy with AI in it. Nobody should do that. … Maybe this will be a boon… but our story from social media is, no, this is very, very unlikely to be good for kids.” — Jonathan Haidt [67:03]
- Humor and gravitas combined:
- Tyson: “Social media is the poison and I am its antidote.” [69:37]
- O’Reilly: “Never get high on your own supply. … Never get your children high on your own supply.” [65:01]
- Tyson: “Keep looking up and away from your smartphones.” [71:13]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [06:01] – Mental health data, dramatic increases beginning in 2012–2013
- [10:13] – Social shift: “Defend mode,” overprotection, and the “new normal” of anxiety
- [15:35], [16:04] – Litigation panic, children’s “antifragility,” and the rise of helicopter parenting
- [20:07] – Technology, corporate incentives, and the “fear of missing out”
- [24:03] – Brain development: myelination, puberty, and what’s at stake
- [26:53] – The case against social media before age 16
- [31:08] – Why “different” outcomes aren’t necessarily “equal” or “better”
- [44:46] – Haidt's “four norms” for addressing the crisis
- [53:21] – Specific harms of Instagram (girls), TikTok (attention/addiction), Snapchat (exploitation/risk)
- [57:20] – AI “friend” chatbots, the next frontier, and corporate “chutzpah”
- [61:10] – Who’s stepping up? Reform starting in elite communities, the path for schools
- [65:59], [69:37] – The stakes: social apocalypse, hope for rapid change, and final movements for awareness
Conclusion
Neil deGrasse Tyson and his co-hosts, through pointed questions and candid reflection, frame Jonathan Haidt’s urgent message: The mental health epidemic among youth is real, measurable, and largely tied to innovations in technology that arrived just over a decade ago. There are ways out—restricting youth access to smartphones and social media, building real-world independence and community, and drawing a line against algorithm-driven, screen-based childhoods. But solutions will require collective societal will, urgent policy leadership, and a return to letting kids be kids in the real world.
For further information and resources: anxiousgeneration.com
A children’s version of The Anxious Generation is forthcoming.
“Keep looking up—and away from your smartphones.” — Neil deGrasse Tyson [71:13]