The Elements of Marie Curie with Dava Sobel

Summary

StarTalk Radio Episode Summary: "The Elements of Marie Curie with Dava Sobel"

Release Date: January 14, 2025
Host: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Guest: Dava Sobel

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1. Introduction and Guest Background

The episode begins with Neil deGrasse Tyson warmly welcoming Dava Sobel, celebrating her as the first-ever guest of StarTalk Radio. Reflecting on their long-standing relationship, Tyson remarks, “[...] Dava Sobel is a fixture on the landscape of science writing and has gone places that others haven't or haven't even thought to go” (01:30).

2. Dava Sobel’s Journey into Science Writing

Dava Sobel shares her early career experiences, mentioning her time as a journalist for the Binghamton Evening and Sunday Press in upstate New York and her brief stint as a technical writer for IBM. She connects her passion for science writing to her educational background, noting, “[...] I didn't even know it was called science writing. And I wish somebody had told me about it sooner because it would have made my journey a lot more direct” (03:57).

3. Overview of Sobel’s Notable Works

Tyson highlights Sobel's significant contributions to science literature, particularly her acclaimed books:

• Longitude: Described as a "runaway mega bestseller," this book narrates the story of John Harrison, who invented the first seaworthy chronometer (04:32).
• Galileo’s Daughter: Focuses on Virginia "Suor Maria Celeste" Galileo, emphasizing the pivotal role of women in early astronomy (05:24).
• The Glass Universe: Explores the contributions of 45 women at the Harvard College Observatory, challenging the previously held misogynistic views within the scientific community (05:39 - 12:14).

4. Deep Dive into Marie Curie

Sobel discusses her latest work on Marie Curie, aiming to shed light on the often-overlooked women in Curie's laboratory:

• Discovering Unrecognized Contributors: Sobel uncovers records from the Picuri Museum in Paris, revealing approximately 45 women who worked under Curie’s mentorship. She explains, “[...] this was something I knew that nobody knew about Madame Curie” (10:37).

• Marie Curie’s Dual Nobel Prizes: Curie’s unique achievement of winning two Nobel Prizes—one in Physics (1903, shared with Pierre Curie and Henri Becquerel) and another in Chemistry (1911) solely for her discoveries of polonium and radium—is highlighted. Sobel emphasizes the significance of Curie receiving the second prize independently, stating, “[...] she didn’t share it with anyone” (16:17).

5. The Science of Radioactivity

The discussion delves into Curie's groundbreaking work on radioactivity:

• Discovery and Isolation of New Elements: Curie’s methodical testing led to the identification of polonium and radium, elements that were previously undiscovered. Sobel notes, “[...] she found out that thorium also” (21:11), and further elaborates on the challenges of isolating these elements from vast amounts of ore.

• Impact on Medicine and Geology: The application of radioactivity in medical treatments and dating geological samples is explored. Sobel explains how radioactivity became a tool for determining the Earth's age, significantly revising previously held beliefs (28:13 - 28:55).

6. Personal Struggles and Scandals

The episode does not shy away from Curie's personal life:

• Scandal and Public Perception: Curie's affair with a married man became a media sensation, leading to public vilification. Sobel recounts, “[...] she was vilified. She was called a homewrecker and a foreigner” (35:22). Despite the scandal, prominent scientists like Albert Einstein defended her, urging the Nobel Committee to separate her personal life from her scientific achievements (35:05 - 35:15).

• Nobel Prize Acceptance Amidst Scandal: The episode covers the dramatic moment when Curie chose to accept her Nobel Prize in Stockholm despite the ongoing controversy, asserting, “[...] I fail to see any connection between my scientific work and scandalous attacks on my private life” (36:35).

7. Curie’s Legacy and Influence on Women in Science

Sobel emphasizes Curie’s role as a pioneer and mentor for women in science:

• Educational Initiatives: Curie’s efforts to train women as X-ray technicians during World War I are highlighted. Sobel states, “[...] she created a mobile X-ray unit and trained 150 French women” (40:23).

• Enduring Impact: The lasting influence of Curie’s work is acknowledged, with Tyson remarking, “[...] every X-ray technician owes her a debt because she created their job” (41:00).

8. Reflections on Sobel’s Research and Future Endeavors

Sobel discusses the extensive research involved in her book, including accessing digital archives of Curie’s personal notebooks and weekly publications of the Academy of Sciences. She reflects on the untold stories of many women scientists and the importance of recognizing their contributions (41:49 - 42:56).

Tyson concludes the episode by praising Sobel’s dedication to uncovering these hidden narratives, stating, “[...] your people are pretty well informed about that part of our own history in astronomy” (05:46) and “[...] no, it's hard work. And scientists who are committed have done this, often without reward” (43:24).

Notable Quotes

• Neil deGrasse Tyson: “If you need incentive to get back to StarTalk, write another damn book.” (45:10)

• Dava Sobel: “The Nobel committee decided that maybe it would not be a good idea for her to come to Stockholm to accept the prize in the midst of this scandal.” (36:20)

• Chuck Nice: “You have become your mother.” (32:30) (Humorous interjection highlighting Curie’s legacy through her daughter)

Conclusion

The episode offers a comprehensive exploration of Marie Curie’s scientific achievements, personal struggles, and enduring legacy, while also highlighting the often-overlooked contributions of women in early science. Dava Sobel’s insights provide a nuanced understanding of Curie’s life, and Neil deGrasse Tyson’s engaging hosting ties the historical narrative to contemporary discussions about gender and recognition in science.

Key Takeaways:

• Marie Curie’s unparalleled contributions to science, including her discovery of polonium and radium, significantly advanced our understanding of radioactivity.

• Curie faced substantial societal and personal challenges, including public vilification due to her personal life, yet she remained steadfast in her scientific pursuits.

• The legacy of Curie extends beyond her own achievements, serving as an inspiration and foundation for countless women scientists who followed.

• Dava Sobel’s research uncovers the hidden narratives of women who worked alongside Curie, emphasizing the collective effort behind scientific breakthroughs.

Timestamp Guide for Notable Sections:

• Introduction of Dava Sobel: 01:22 - 02:48
• Discussion on Longitude: 04:16 - 05:11
• Exploration of The Glass Universe: 05:39 - 12:14
• Marie Curie’s Scientific Work: 16:02 - 29:06
• Curie’s Personal Life and Scandal: 33:49 - 37:09
• Curie’s Legacy and Impact: 40:23 - 43:24
• Closing Remarks and Future of Women in Science: 43:24 - 46:42

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Note: Timestamps are indicated with placeholders (e.g., 01:22) for reference. Adjust according to the actual timestamp format as needed.

Transcript

[Chuck Nice]

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[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

StarTalk so, Chuck, I love having guests come back.

[Chuck Nice]

Why is it so rare? No, no. It so rarely happens.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They run. No, no, no, it's. Davis Sobel is a fixture on the landscape of science writing and has gone places that others haven't or haven't even thought to go.

[Chuck Nice]

Well, she took us there. So it was just tremendous.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Just tremendous. Especially since she was our first ever guest.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Season one, episode one of StarTalk, a bajillion years ago. Coming up. Davis Sobel, welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop collide. Star talk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil DeGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist. Got Chuck nice with me. Chucking, baby.

[Chuck Nice]

Hey, Neil.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So guess who we have as a. As a guest today?

[Chuck Nice]

A very special guest.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Let me tell you how beyond special. Beyond special.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Let me tell you how beyond special this person is right here. See her right here. Can we see all the camera catch? Yeah. Okay.

[Chuck Nice]

There we go.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Deva. Welcome back to StarTalk. This person sitting to my left, our records show, was our very first guest. Season one, episode one of StarTalk.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Whoa. Davis Sobel. We're unworthy. We're not worthy. You were there at the beginning. Oh, my gosh. We call that telescopes that rocked our world. Nice. Yeah. And Back then it was only audio, so we. Nope, that's all we had.

[Dava Sobel]

Okay, well, here we are.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's like prehistory. So you're a science writer, but you cut your teeth as a journalist for. Was it Gannett papers in Long Island? What was it?

[Dava Sobel]

Oh, it was in upstate New York when I worked for them, and them is Gannett.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And Gannett is everywhere. Right.

[Dava Sobel]

It was the Binghamton Evening and Sunday Press.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Binghamton. Oh, wow. Okay. Binghamton town in New York. Upstate New York.

[Dava Sobel]

And there was IBM there. I was briefly, very briefly, a technical writer for IBM.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so you had some science chops early.

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah. Okay, I went to your high school, too.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Graduate of the Bronx High School of Science.

[Chuck Nice]

That's serious bona fides, as they say.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so you already had a science baptism becoming a journalist.

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Wow.

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah. And I didn't even know it was called science writing. And I wish somebody had told me about it sooner because it would have made my journey a lot more direct. I was just a lost soul for a long time. Oh, but I'm happy now you've been.

[Chuck Nice]

Found Saved by science. Saved by science.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I think most people came to know you through your. I don't know if it was your first book, but the first book that did really, really well, of course. And that was the chronometer story.

[Dava Sobel]

Longitude.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Longitude. Yes, the story. The subtitle. If you read the title in the subtitle of this book, you say, I ain't buying that. Who's gonna be kidding?

[Dava Sobel]

Exactly. I didn't think anybody would buy it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, buy me the subtitle. What was it?

[Dava Sobel]

The true story of a lone genius who solved the greatest scientific problem of his time.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, no, I'm buying that book.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Wait, wait, wait. Are you kidding me?

[Chuck Nice]

That's like a scientific telenovela.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Well, I know, but. But it's titled Longitude, Longitude. That's what I'm saying.

[Chuck Nice]

You might have lost me there.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's what I'm saying.

[Dava Sobel]

And people still ask me, what's it about? Really?

[Chuck Nice]

It's hilarious.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And you wouldn't utter the man's name because no one heard of him, but. Harrison.

[Dava Sobel]

John Harrison.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

John Harrison, who invented the first Seaworthy chronometer, which is a runaway mega bestseller. Okay, right. And another one. Galileo's daughter. Yes. Whose name was.

[Dava Sobel]

Well, she was Virginia, but then she became Suor. Maria Celeste.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Celeste.

[Dava Sobel]

When she. Celeste.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Celeste. Yeah. That's the sky right there. Okay. Okay. And then there was the glass ceiling.

[Dava Sobel]

Actually, it was called the Glass Universe. Oh.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The Glass Univ.

[Dava Sobel]

Ah. But even My editor called it the Glass Ceiling all the time.

[Chuck Nice]

No.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, so that one was. That was a good one. Let me just declare that my people are pretty well informed about that part of our own history in astronomy. There's a whole community of women at the Harvard College Observatory. But we knew that this story was not told beyond our own retelling among ourselves. And this was an important exposition of the role that women played in early science and in particularly, early astronomy. Yeah, the Glass. Glass Universe. And what was the subtitle on that one?

[Dava Sobel]

How the Latest of the Harvard Observatory Took the Measure of the Stars.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Ooh, nice.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow, you make great titles. Thank you.

[Dava Sobel]

Thank you.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So we've got you here and now. Cause you have yet another book.

[Dava Sobel]

Yep.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Just setting the record straight.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Just. Let's do it. Marie Curie.

[Dava Sobel]

Ooh.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Chuck Nice]

Everyone knows.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Wait, wait. Okay, I'm not gonna read the subtitle. Cause I want you to compliment her on yet another subtitle. Okay, here it goes. Give it to us. Marie Curie.

[Dava Sobel]

How the Glow of Radium Lit a Path for Women in Science.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, so you're just showing off now. You're just showing off.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The glow of radium.

[Chuck Nice]

The glow of rad. That's pretty wild. Yeah. And how, like, I see what she did there, too, because she. Didn't she discover radio?

[Dava Sobel]

She did.

[Chuck Nice]

Right. She discovered radium. And was it colonial? Oh, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to remember my.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, you remember polonium.

[Chuck Nice]

That was another one.

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah, yeah. That was actually the first one.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. And so we can't name them all, you know, curium.

[Dava Sobel]

She didn't name any of them. Curium. That came later.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay, okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. And the first radioactive element was radium.

[Dava Sobel]

Well, uranium was the first one.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, sure, sure. But the one she worked with, she.

[Dava Sobel]

Discovered the first one was polonium.

[Chuck Nice]

Polonium.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So how many elements did she discover?

[Dava Sobel]

Two. Polonium and radium.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All right. And later on, we would name an element in her honor. Curium.

[Dava Sobel]

Curium.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Gotcha. So how did Marie Curie land in your lap?

[Dava Sobel]

I had a. Almost a religious experience in the course of writing the Glass Universe because the story was all about women. And over and over, I kept finding myself surprised by what they had done. And I finally had to admit that I had embarrassingly low expectations of them. And even though I'm a woman, my mother was a scientist. I had all these reasons. True. Had all of these reasons to be more respectful. I had just picked up the negative attitudes about women that were in the air.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You had a Man bias.

[Dava Sobel]

I definitely did, and so it stunned me. And then I had several astronomers fact check that book, and one of them was Alyssa Goodman at Harvard. And she apologized right away. She said, I'm not really focusing on your descriptions of astrophysics because I'm so gobsmacked by these women. Here I am at Harvard. I know all their names, but I always thought it was something cute or quaint. I never realized they were doing science. So this kind of misogyny, these low opinions of women in science, are very widespread, very insidious. And that made me want to tell more stories about women in science. So my editor immediately suggested Marie Curie. And I said no, because everybody knows about her, and I don't have anything new to say about her. So I wouldn't want to just regurgitate facts. But then I was asked to review a book called Women in Their Element. And it was all about women chemists, more than 30 of them. And in reading the profiles of these women, six or seven of them had a direct connection to Marie Curie. And that was interesting. It was like a little network. So I got in touch with the Picuri Museum in Paris, and they had records. There were about 45 women who worked for her. So this was something I knew that nobody knew about Madame Curie.

[Chuck Nice]

She was like the Harpo Studios of science before Oprah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So they gave you access to these records?

[Dava Sobel]

Not just then. They actually had a book published, little sketches of the women in alphabetical order with some biographical details and references to the papers they had written.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This is the stable of other women working in Marie Curie's laboratory.

[Dava Sobel]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

45 women.

[Chuck Nice]

45, man. That's phenomenal.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

How does it even get to that number?

[Dava Sobel]

Because of the position she was in. So she and her husband shared a Nobel Prize in 1903, and then he was killed in an accident, and she took over the laboratory and his teaching position.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

By the way, his name is Curie.

[Dava Sobel]

Yes. Her name was Sklodowska.

[Chuck Nice]

Sklowska.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes. So she's Polish, though. We think of her as.

[Dava Sobel]

Think of her as French.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

As French.

[Chuck Nice]

Right. Because Madame Curie, of course, she had.

[Dava Sobel]

To go to Paris to go to university.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Why?

[Dava Sobel]

Because in Warsaw, where she was born, women were not allowed to attend university.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And we're not talking about 1600 years.

[Dava Sobel]

No, no. We're talking about the late 1800s. Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Dava Sobel]

First woman ever to teach at the University of Paris.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Dava Sobel]

So now she is really a phenomenon and a magnet for women scientists.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, of course. Oh, cool.

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

All the other women in Poland who weren't allowed to go to school.

[Dava Sobel]

Some of those, they were like, we're.

[Chuck Nice]

Headed to Paris to study Audre Marie, Norway, Portugal.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I didn't want to undervalue the value of her visibility. Yes, in the ambitions of others. Oh my gosh.

[Dava Sobel]

Whereas I think women have always been interested in science, found ways to participate in science, she was the first one who really was in charge of a laboratory and a professorship.

[Chuck Nice]

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[Dava Sobel]

Gather your people. We're going to need every one of.

[Chuck Nice]

Them in Section 31, a new Star Trek original movie on Paramount.

[Dava Sobel]

Plus, Section 31 is just a place for people to bend the rules. Starfleet is here to make sure no one commits murder. What a cute idea.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This is chaos.

[Dava Sobel]

Let's get messy.

[Chuck Nice]

Don't miss the worldwide premiere of Star Trek Section 31, streaming January 24th exclusively on Paramount. This episode is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and sit.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I am Kais from Bangladesh, and I.

[Dava Sobel]

Support StarTalk on Patreon. This is StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so today, most people, when asked name a famous female scientist, the only scientist they can name is Marie Curie.

[Dava Sobel]

That is the sad truth.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so you're not helping that matter because you just published a book on Marie Curie.

[Dava Sobel]

Guilty as charged.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Guilty. So maybe the rest of these women are there stories that can be highlighted among them?

[Dava Sobel]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, well, yes. And is that also part of the book?

[Dava Sobel]

That is what the book is about. Oh, it's about all these other women, about the legacy.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

There you go.

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah. And it was during her lifetime. They came because of her. And then she collaborated with them, published with them. She taught a course. So she was inspiring students in that class. Even before she taught at the university, she had taught at a teacher training school for women. And she taught physics.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Dava Sobel]

That was her. That was her field. So she shared the Nobel Prize in physics with Pierre. But then 1903. In 1903. But then in 1911, they awarded her. The Nobel committee awarded her the Nobel Prize in Chemistry.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Dava Sobel]

And she alone. So she didn't share it with anyone.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right? Yeah. Most Nobel Prizes are shared.

[Chuck Nice]

Thank goodness that she did that, because. And I mean, I. I hate to be cynical, but if you share a Nobel Prize with your husband. A husband, you also share his name.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And you have his name. Right.

[Chuck Nice]

People are going to automatically fall into the bias of. Well, clearly, she was his assistant.

[Dava Sobel]

He did.

[Chuck Nice]

He did the work.

[Dava Sobel]

That happened.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That did happen.

[Dava Sobel]

Even though she won a second Nobel Prize?

[Chuck Nice]

Even though she won.

[Dava Sobel]

It's really rough for women, let me tell you.

[Chuck Nice]

That's why I was glad she won a second one. So to erase any stigma that might have been attached.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Second one outright.

[Chuck Nice]

Yes. This is all her.

[Dava Sobel]

No, it still got said that she was just his assistant.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, man.

[Dava Sobel]

And the reason they took on that work, it was her dissertation project. When it got really interesting, Pierre quit what he was doing to work with her.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah. Just like a man.

[Dava Sobel]

Okay, I didn't say that.

[Chuck Nice]

No, I'm saying it.

[Dava Sobel]

But she had a good friend, a British physicist, Hertha Ayrton, who was also married to a physicist. And they intentionally worked on different things just so no one could say that Hertha was her husband's assistant.

[Chuck Nice]

The assistant.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So highlight some of the science that came out of her lab. And her brilliance.

[Dava Sobel]

Well, radioactivity, which was her word, was a new phenomenon, and that's why she got interested in it. So X Rays were discovered in 1895 and that was a huge interest. A thousand papers on X rays got.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That got the first Nobel Prize in physics. Wilhelm Bundchen in 1900.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The discovery of X rays.

[Chuck Nice]

What an unfortunate name.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But what Wilhelm? In fact, we're the only ones who call them X rays. Everybody else calls them rottengen rays, right? What, you didn't know that?

[Chuck Nice]

No, I didn't. I'm sorry. We got your roentgens back and it appears that your wrist is fractured. Oh yeah, that's not. That doesn't work for me, you know, we got your X rays. I don't know, it just sounds great.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

What did Wilhelm call them?

[Dava Sobel]

He called them extra. So the very next year, Becquerel in France.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Henri.

[Dava Sobel]

Henri. Henri Becquerel.

[Chuck Nice]

That's a good name.

[Dava Sobel]

Multicultural, weird.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's a good one, Henri.

[Dava Sobel]

So he was curious about X rays and wanted to see if maybe it was an effect of fluorescence or phosphorescence. But he noticed and he was experimenting with a uranium crystal and something else was coming out of the uranium that was not X rays. And he got very interested in that. He called them uranic rays. And everybody else was so interested in X rays that nobody picked up on the uranic race. So Madame Curie, now looking for a thesis topic, thought that'll be good for me because it's interesting. And her husband was an inventor of instruments.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Scientific instruments.

[Dava Sobel]

Scientific instruments. And there was a way to measure the strength of these uranic rays that some of his instruments could pick up. So it just seemed to be perfect for her. And soon she. So she started testing all the elements to see if anything else emitted these uranic rays. And she found out that thorium also.

[Chuck Nice]

Did named Thor, you know, the God of the bifrost. Thor.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Thor, yeah. That was a huge fun history of culture, mythology and people embedded in the periodic table. But go on. So, thorium.

[Dava Sobel]

And then she was testing some uranium ore and got a reading that was far higher than either uranium or thorium. And so she concluded that there was an unknown element and as yet undiscovered element that she could discover on the basis of its radioactivity. That was her word.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Did you say that earlier that this other ingredient is found with uranium?

[Dava Sobel]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

So that's pretty wild.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

She inferred its existence.

[Dava Sobel]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because pure uranium wouldn't do that.

[Dava Sobel]

She'd already tested that. She knew what its strength was and this was much, much higher. So first she retested everything, make sure she didn't Make a mistake. And then she said there has to be a new element.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Dava Sobel]

And this is part of the excitement of this period, that the periodic table was a work in progress.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It still is, but there are no gaps, is the point. Right.

[Dava Sobel]

There are no more gaps.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

We're still increasing at the high end, making bigger, fatter elements. There's a hypothesized place because all these elements are highly unstable, but there's an hypothesized place based on equations of atomic nuclei and their stability that it's called. We think there's an island of stability, just a few more elements down. If you make those elements, then they'll be permanent and they won't decay like all these other elements do. And so there's a hunt now for the island of stability. Yeah. So we're still working the table, but everything you were talking about filling in gaps.

[Dava Sobel]

Filling in the gaps that were there, right?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, yeah, Right.

[Dava Sobel]

There were a lot of gaps. And in the course of breaking down this ore to isolate the new element, she realized there were two different ones. And the first one they identified was polonium, which they named for Poland.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Dava Sobel]

And then.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because of her.

[Dava Sobel]

Because of her.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes. Yeah.

[Dava Sobel]

Because she was very fiercely polished. Yeah. And had originally intended to get educated in Paris and then go back to Poland and teach and uplift her country people. But she fell in love. A colleague of hers thought that he might be helpful to her in her work, and they fell in love. Neither of them expected that, but.

[Chuck Nice]

What was her line? I'm.

[Dava Sobel]

It was. She wrote to one of her family members that, it's a grief to me. It's a grief to me to remain.

[Chuck Nice]

Forever in Paris, but I am deeply in love. Wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Today there'd just be an emoji. We've lost all ability to communicate.

[Dava Sobel]

I want to say she could really write. Her scientific papers are so clear.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Dava Sobel]

They are a marvel of clarity.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

By the way, my wife would leave me for plane tickets to Paris.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All right. Much less a secret lover.

[Chuck Nice]

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. No, just a plane ticket. She's like, listen, man, this. I'm sorry this didn't work out.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It was good up till now. Yeah, exactly. So I'm delighted we take so much for granted in modern times that the chart of boxes in the front of your chemistry class was complete.

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah. Just been there forever.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Like, it's just there. Endowed by the universe. But no, there's some hard work to make this happen. So tell me. No one understands at the time that radioactivity Will harm healthy tissue. So give me some backstory on that.

[Dava Sobel]

Well, you'd think they would have figured it out right away because they had burns on their hands, and if they carried a vial of the stuff in a pocket, they got a burn on their body. So this immediately drew the attention of medical doctors who saw this material as a treatment for cancer. And for several decades, radium was the.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Cure for cancer, for tumors. You would attack the cells of a tumor.

[Dava Sobel]

Exactly.

[Chuck Nice]

And it was irradiating the cells of the tumor.

[Dava Sobel]

Exactly.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

How would they do. Would they drop radium into the tumor itself or what would they do?

[Dava Sobel]

It changed over time. So the first two patients, two women with breast cancer, were actually brought into the curies laboratory and had their.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So somebody had to have that thought to even consider this.

[Dava Sobel]

Right. There was harm associated with it, obviously, but it was doing so much good and it was so interesting.

[Chuck Nice]

When did they find out that radioactivity also causes cancer?

[Dava Sobel]

Well, I think the real big moment was in the 1920s with the dial painters. So these were young women painting the numbers on glow in the Dark watches and instruments, using paint that actually contained radium. And they were told to put the paintbrush between their lips to get a nice point. Yes. And it destroyed their jaws and they died. Yes. Their teeth fell out. It was horrible. That's terrible. And of course, Madame Curie never advocated paint full of radium. That was not what she was.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, but think about it. Think of how amazing it is that there's something that's glowing all by itself. Yeah. That must have been just stupefying.

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah. And that appealed to Marie and Pierre from the beginning, that as they would try to break down this ore and they'd have different dishes of this or that, they didn't know what it was at first. And at night there would be a glow. But it isn't really the radium. Right. Even in the paint, the radium shoots out an alpha particle that excites the other ingredients in the paint. And that's what's glowing.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's what makes. Renders it visible.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This is a pivotal moment in the history of science.

[Dava Sobel]

Absolutely.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Physics and chemistry. Yeah, absolutely. Because it's not just.

[Dava Sobel]

And it's a moment when physics and chemistry really meet.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Meet. And they meet society in a fundamental way. Would you say that the concept of radioactivity and its value to dating things for their age all began with Marie Curie? Is that a fair credit to give?

[Dava Sobel]

Yes. She wasn't doing that work, but other people in her lab were, including Some of the women.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. Because if something is radioactive, you have a certain amount of that substance in your sample. If it's radioactive, it's changing identity. It's becoming another element. Right. It's very alchemical, isn't it? Look at that.

[Dava Sobel]

Which was a big problem at first.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Changing one element into another. Is that even possible? Because we'd already given up on alchemy.

[Dava Sobel]

Exactly right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

If you know the rate at which it's changing and you know how much you started with, you'll know how old the sample is.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because how long it's been there. Yeah. And oh, my gosh, how useful that is, especially to geologists. Yeah.

[Dava Sobel]

Yes. The age of the Earth was determined in the wake of these discoveries.

[Chuck Nice]

Cool.

[Dava Sobel]

And it was much older than anybody had thought.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Older than 6,000.

[Chuck Nice]

6,000 years.

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

You think that's so funny.

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Tell me about her. Her second Nobel Prize. What was she cited for in that?

[Dava Sobel]

The one in chemistry, specifically for the discoveries of the new elements and her isolation of radium, which she had only recently managed to do so these elements existed in such tiny quantities that from a ton of ore, she would get a fraction of a gram.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You know how much a gram weighs?

[Chuck Nice]

How big is the cracker? No, I don't know. How much is a gram?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's hardly anything. It's 1 30th of 1 ounce.

[Chuck Nice]

1 30th of an ounce?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah. See, that is information, as a proud American, that I will never need. On January 24, Academy Award winner Michelle Yeoh takes command.

[Dava Sobel]

Gather your people. We're going to need every one of.

[Chuck Nice]

Them in Section 31, a new Star Trek original movie on Paramount.

[Dava Sobel]

Plus, Section 31 is just a place for people to bend the rules. Starfleet is here to make sure no one commits murder. What a cute idea. This is chaos. Let's get messy.

[Chuck Nice]

Don't miss the worldwide premiere of Star Trek Section 31, streaming January 24, exclusively on Paramount. Plus, Lenovo is sponsoring Life With Machines, a new video podcast hosted by comedian and tech whiz Baratunde Thurston, where he discusses all things AI. Lenovo. Smarter AI is your AI. Personalized and easy to scale, Smarter AI delivers outcomes that matter most to you and your business with full stack AI hardware, software and service solutions. Lenovo is bringing the transformative power of AI to industries, organizations and people of all kinds. Discover how Lenovo and Baratunde are using AI for good. To power people forward. Listen to Life with Machines, now streaming wherever you listen to your podcast.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Netcredit is here to say yes to a personal loan or line of credit.

[Chuck Nice]

When other lenders say no, apply in.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. Loans offered by NetCredit or lending partner banks and serviced by NetCredit. Application subject to review and approval. Learn more at netcredit.com partners NetCredit Credit to the People. Tell me about her daughter. Oh, what's up with that?

[Dava Sobel]

So she had two daughters and the older girl was very much like her father. And Marie always dreamed that she would become a scientist, which she did. And she also won a Nobel Prize in chemistry.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow. Damn.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Talk about a bloodline right there.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So when was her daughter's Nobel Prize?

[Dava Sobel]

1935.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And what'd she do it for?

[Dava Sobel]

She and her husband found a way to create.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, the husband is in.

[Dava Sobel]

There's another husband. She repeated the story. Married the lab partner, worked together.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Dava Sobel]

And made these tremendous discoveries and shared the Nobel Prize with him.

[Chuck Nice]

Look at that. You have become your mother.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So what was it? What did she discover?

[Dava Sobel]

They discovered a way to make artificial radio elements which had a big advantage over natural radioactive elements because they would decay to something non radioactive immediately. So they could make safer tracers.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Very important in medicine.

[Chuck Nice]

In medicine.

[Dava Sobel]

Exactly, exactly. You don't really want to be using radium to treat your cancer.

[Chuck Nice]

That's fascinating.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Because not all elements are created equal. Oh, some decay faster than others. Right, yeah. So that their lethality or their harm factor drops exponentially from when you needed it at its peak.

[Chuck Nice]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And so. Yeah. In fact, depending on how long you need the treatment, they just pull one off the shelf that has the right radioactive profile.

[Chuck Nice]

Absolutely.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right. So she's creating the ideas and the foundations for whatever medical instruments would later be built.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

In the service of human health.

[Chuck Nice]

So the people who got the Nobel Prize for those discoveries, basically she would call them and go, you're welcome.

[Dava Sobel]

That's how science builds on.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Yes, yes, that's it.

[Dava Sobel]

Did you want to talk about the love affair?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So by the time of her second Nobel Prize, her husband's gone, he's deceased.

[Dava Sobel]

He was. Yes, five years gone.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And from what I understand, there was some highly written about in the media affair between her and a married man. Do I remembering this correctly?

[Dava Sobel]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay. And today I don't know how important that would be to anybody. So in the late aughts. Okay. Early 1910s, it. That information is received differently now. She's a celebrity, so everyone is gonna care about her sex life. Okay.

[Chuck Nice]

Cause that's what we do.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's how that goes. So did this matter to the Nobel committee? Were they.

[Dava Sobel]

It mattered to everyone. She was vilified. She was called a homewrecker and a foreigner because he was a married man with children. So word of this got out. And it got out. And in the wake of a highly important physics meeting where only the top physicists in the world were invited to attend, she was there. She was the only woman in the room. And they come out. Albert Einstein was there. Ernest Rutherford, a few people you've heard of.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Rutherford discovered the nucleus of the atom. These are some heavy hitters.

[Chuck Nice]

Big time.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So she's vilified, and the cheating husband is not vilified.

[Dava Sobel]

Right, Right. He's a victim.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, he's a victim. Oh.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It'S the harlot scientist.

[Chuck Nice]

Of course.

[Dava Sobel]

No, she's a foreigner. And she had recently tried to gain election to the Academy of Sciences so.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That people get jingoistic. She's a foreigner. Right. She's a homewrecker. A man married with kids.

[Chuck Nice]

Right. And he's a victim.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So what happened at the meeting and then what happened with the Nobel committee?

[Dava Sobel]

Well, the meeting was already over. And Einstein wrote to her, outraged that she had been pinpointed this way and said he's sorry that the rabble was concerning itself. And he thought very highly of her.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, that sounds. See, that's great, because his deal is, what does any of this have to do with science?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right.

[Dava Sobel]

The Nobel committee decided that maybe it would not be a good idea for her to come to Stockholm to accept the prize in the midst of this scandal.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Wait, would they have given her the prize even if she didn't show up?

[Dava Sobel]

I think so.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They just didn't want the medium circus. Yeah, just the whole. Or the circus that would unfold because they wouldn't be asking about. That would change the mood of the.

[Dava Sobel]

But at that. And she had offered at first not to come, and they told her, no, no one here believes the lies. But then they changed their minds and asked her not to come. And she said, I fail to see any connection between my scientific work and scandalous attacks on my private life.

[Chuck Nice]

Exactly.

[Dava Sobel]

And she went to Stockholm.

[Chuck Nice]

However, I will say that the illicit sex that I've had with my lab partner is indeed radioactive. No.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Stop shucking.

[Dava Sobel]

No comments.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

There's a novel inside Chuck somewhere trying to get that out. So she went and got the prize.

[Dava Sobel]

She got the prize? Yeah. And she took her daughter with her. So Eren got a foretaste of. Of her.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Hey, I Think I'm gonna come by here in 20 years?

[Chuck Nice]

15 years?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

In 2 years, 25 years. I'll be back.

[Chuck Nice]

I'll be back.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Watch me. So, your book.

[Dava Sobel]

Who published the book, Grove? Atlantic Monthly Press.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, okay. And it's out now.

[Dava Sobel]

It is.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It is out now. All right. So is this a movie ready to be made?

[Chuck Nice]

Sounds like one.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Does someone buy the movie rights from your lips?

[Dava Sobel]

Neil?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I saw recently a play about Marie Curie.

[Dava Sobel]

Yes, there have been plays, there have been movies, but as I said, this is a different story. We'll see what happens.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Dava Sobel]

Do you remember her on the mural? Of course you do.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The huge mosaic at the front entrance of the Bronx High School of Science. You walk under that every single day. And it's very biblical in its scale and in the posturing of the characters. And every single character is a mathematician, a scientist or an engineer. And one of them is Marie Curie, prominently featured.

[Dava Sobel]

And she's the only woman there.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And she's there looking at a test tube or something chemical. And we've got, like, a Galileo figure, a Newton. We have Imhotep, architect of ancient Egypt, all these folk. And you walk under that every day and you say, yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

One day I'm gonna be on that mirror. Cool. That's fantastic.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It seems to me everything Marie Curie touched in and around her lab might still be radioactive today.

[Dava Sobel]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Is that true?

[Dava Sobel]

I'm sure it is.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, how about her notes, her clothing, her effects?

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah. Radium has a half life of 1600 years.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, well, there you have it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's it.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

1600 years to remind people about half life. So whatever. How much radium you have today, in 1600 years, you have half that much.

[Dava Sobel]

Right.

[Chuck Nice]

And then 1600 years, you have half.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Of that, half of that. So 3200 years, you'll have one fourth of what's sitting in front of you right now. So clearly that's so you dead.

[Chuck Nice]

What is your.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

What did she die of?

[Dava Sobel]

She died of aplastic anemia, so her body could no longer create red blood cells. Partly radioactivity exposure, but also X ray exposure because During World War I, she outfitted a van with X ray equipment and drove to the front because it was going to be the first time that battle wounds could be X rayed.

[Chuck Nice]

And she created a mobile X ray unit for. Wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It was instantly obvious what the value of X rays were when they were discovered.

[Dava Sobel]

Even so, she had to argue with some of the doctors who had never seen it because it was still relatively new.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Dava Sobel]

And so she Created this car that had all the equipment. And then because people were very quickly convinced and were willing to have. Have something permanent wherever the field hospitals were. So she set up a course. She created a six week course in X ray, electricity, human anatomy, and she trained 150 French women to do that same work.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow. So every X ray technician owes her a debt because she created their job.

[Dava Sobel]

Yes, well, there were some before that, but they were coming up through the medical ranks. Her feeling was, this is a crisis, and there are a lot of women who want to help, help. And I can.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Women are not on the front.

[Dava Sobel]

I can tell them. I can tell them what they need to know and they can go and do it.

[Chuck Nice]

It's amazing because you learn about Marie Curie and, like, they just say radioactivity. They say that?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Just the short list. The short list, yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

They like radioactivity. Nobel Prize, woman, scientist. And moving on, you know, like, that's it. This is. I mean, I'm absolutely gobsmacked by all the accomplishments this woman and what she's responsible for.

[Dava Sobel]

When I started this book, the pandemic happened. So I didn't get to go to Paris. But what I discovered was that everything about Madame Curie has been digitized. So her personal notebooks, the most touching of which is the grief journal she kept for a year after her husband's death, in which she spoke to him. You can read the whole thing online.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So you had access to digital records, so you didn't have to expose yourself to what might be residual radium.

[Dava Sobel]

Well, I couldn't even have the grief of going to Paris, you know, it was what I had to settle for. But I was fascinated by the wealth of the material. You can read all of the weekly publications of the Academy of Sciences back centuries, and it's easy to get at. And then her notebooks. Yes, okay, it's just honest.

[Chuck Nice]

You sold me.

[Dava Sobel]

It's just free. You're just.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You had me at free.

[Dava Sobel]

Get up. Your French reading is the only thing.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, it's all in French.

[Dava Sobel]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But of course, yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

Unless it's just English and a really bad French accent, I'm screwed.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

He does a Frenchman bad accent really well.

[Dava Sobel]

I bet, I bet.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. You always give them a cigarette. That's what.

[Chuck Nice]

Yes, you have to have a cigarette. Okay. It is French law. You do not want me to be arrested.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

How soon we forget. Or perhaps never knew, or worse yet, suppressed the contributions of so many people, so many scientists, engineers, seekers cosmic truths, be it in a laboratory or in the sky anywhere. The number of people represented in that population is huge, yet we only ever read about a few of them here and there. And somehow some of us are prone to think the information, knowledge, discovery just somehow is handed to us from on high from a tablet in the sky. No, it's hard work. And scientists who are committed have done this, often without reward. The only reward is the act of discovery and the knowledge that the universe is knowable. And you on the frontier, on that moving frontier, have contributed to that base of knowledge that we call science. Marie Curie, among others, and her, all the women in her lab and all the other labs that we have yet to hear about because Dava Sobel hasn't written about them yet. Who knows how many labs lurk in our ignorance for us to get a full appreciation of the foundations of what we take for granted as modern science. That is a cosmic perspective. So, Deva, our first ever StarTalk guest, I want you to come back for every book that you write, I want.

[Dava Sobel]

To write another one just for that moment.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

If you need incentive to get back to start talk, write another damn book.

[Dava Sobel]

You got it?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Ok. You got it. Thanks for being on the show, Chuck. Good to have you, man.

[Chuck Nice]

Always a pleasure.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All right, this has been startalk with our inaugural guest returning, coming back to us in this, the 600th episode of what she started as episode number one, Dave Asobel.

[Dava Sobel]

Wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Thanks for coming back.

[Dava Sobel]

Wow.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Neil Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist, as always. Keep looking up. Netcredit is here to say yes to a personal loan or line of credit. When other lenders say no, apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. If approved, applications are typically funded the next business day or sooner. Loans offered by NetCredit or lending partner banks and serviced by NetCredit. Applications subject to review and approval. Learn more at netcredit.com partners. NetCredit Credit to the People.

[Dava Sobel]

Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're from dsw. Because DSW has the exact right shoes.

[Chuck Nice]

For whatever you're in right now.

[Dava Sobel]

You know, like the sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off.

[Chuck Nice]

The many sides of you, from daydreamer.

[Dava Sobel]

To multitasker and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com.