The Future of Fusion Energy with Fatima Ebrahimi

Summary

StarTalk Radio: The Future of Fusion Energy with Fatima Ebrahimi

Episode Release Date: February 25, 2025

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of StarTalk Radio, astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson delves deep into the realm of fusion energy with esteemed plasma physicist Dr. Fatima Ebrahimi from the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory (PPPL). Joined by comedian co-host Paul Mercurio, the trio navigates the complexities of plasma physics, the challenges of achieving sustainable fusion, and the promising future of fusion-powered technologies.

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1. Understanding Plasma: The Fourth State of Matter

Dr. Fatima Ebrahimi begins by elucidating the concept of plasma, often misunderstood as merely blood plasma by the general public.

• Definition and Prevalence: "Plasma is the fourth state of matter, and 99% of the observable universe is plasma," (04:03) Ebrahimi explains. She emphasizes that plasma consists of freely moving electrons and ions, creating a highly charged soup of particles.

• Everyday Examples: To make plasma relatable, Ebrahimi references common items like lightning strikes and candle flames, both of which exhibit plasma properties. "A flame of a candle is plasma," (06:51) she notes, highlighting its reproducibility in everyday experiences.

Notable Quote:

Ebrahimi (04:03): "We are all floating in a plasma state in our universe."

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2. Fusion Energy: Harnessing the Power of Stars

The conversation shifts to the core of fusion energy, explaining its significance and the hurdles scientists face in replicating stellar processes on Earth.

• Fusion Basics: Fusion requires extremely high temperatures (over 100 million degrees) to overcome the electrostatic repulsion between positively charged protons. "High temperature is required to fuse really light atoms like hydrogen and its isotopes," (06:54) Ebrahimi details.

• Historical Context: Tyson reflects nostalgically on fusion research, recalling optimistic projections from decades past. "They would say, oh, it's just five years away," (16:57) he remarks, pointing out the persistent delays in achieving practical fusion energy.

Notable Quote:

Ebrahimi (07:32): "If you want to go far, you need energy and you need fusion."

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3. Tokamak vs. Inertial Confinement: Divergent Paths to Fusion

Dr. Ebrahimi contrasts two primary fusion methodologies: the tokamak design and inertial confinement.

• Tokamak Design: "A tokamak is a donut-shaped chamber using magnetic fields to confine plasma," (10:10) Ebrahimi explains. Princeton's innovation, the spherical tokamak, offers a more compact configuration, enhancing efficiency.

• Inertial Confinement: At Lawrence Livermore, scientists employ lasers to compress and heat small fuel pellets rapidly. "Inertial confinement generates a denser plasma," (19:17) she notes, though it struggles with achieving net energy gain when considering the entire system's energy budget.

Notable Quote:

Ebrahimi (17:40): "Inertial confinement means shooting lasers at very small, dense targets to achieve fusion."

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4. Plasma Propulsion: Revolutionizing Space Travel

The discussion transitions to the innovative application of plasma physics in propulsion technologies, specifically plasma rockets.

• Mechanism and Efficiency: Plasma rockets expel ionized particles at high velocities, providing continuous thrust with minimal fuel. "Plasma propulsion is the next generation of rockets," (35:16) Ebrahimi asserts. This method offers higher exhaust velocities compared to traditional chemical rockets.

• Integration with Fusion Energy: While current plasma rockets can utilize solar power for energy, integrating fusion energy could vastly enhance their capabilities. "If you're going to be useful, it has to be scalable," (26:27) Tyson emphasizes, pointing out the necessity of portable fusion energy sources for sustained space travel.

Notable Quote:

Ebrahimi (35:28): "Plasma rockets are highly efficient in terms of exhaust velocity and fuel flexibility."

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5. Challenges and Future Prospects

Despite significant advancements, achieving practical fusion energy remains fraught with challenges.

• Energy Input vs. Output: A critical hurdle is producing more energy from fusion than is invested in initiating and maintaining it. "We haven't got there engineering-wise, physics-wise, scientifically," (27:45) Ebrahimi admits, though she remains optimistic about ongoing progress.

• Timeline for Implementation: When questioned about the timeline for fusion-powered energy centers, Ebrahimi projects a "five to ten years" (50:02) horizon, contingent on sustained investment and technological breakthroughs.

• Applications Beyond Energy: Beyond electricity generation, fusion and plasma technologies hold promise for powering interplanetary missions. "For Mars, you need plasma propulsion," (42:47) Ebrahimi confirms, citing its efficiency and fuel flexibility as key advantages.

Notable Quote:

Ebrahimi (54:44): "Progress happened like that. It's not sudden; it's the continuous work of scientists and long-term investments."

---

6. The Role of Collaboration and Technology

The synergy between scientific research and technological innovation is pivotal in advancing fusion energy.

• Computational Advances: "Experiments and advanced computation work together to make discoveries," (54:33) Ebrahimi highlights the importance of computational models in understanding and controlling plasma behaviors.

• Funding and Support: Emphasizing the need for financial backing, Ebrahimi appeals for increased funding to accelerate fusion research. "Give me more funding," (51:07) she urges, underscoring the resource-intensive nature of fusion projects.

Notable Quote:

Ebrahimi (54:33): "It's the continuous work of scientists, long-term investments, and collaboration that drive progress in fusion energy."

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7. Conclusion: A Vision for the Future

As the episode wraps up, the guests reflect on the journey toward harnessing fusion energy and its transformative potential.

• Patience and Perseverance: Ebrahimi advises patience, acknowledging that scientific breakthroughs often take time. "Progress doesn't happen overnight," (54:44) she states, reinforcing the need for sustained effort.

• Cosmic Perspective: Tyson beautifully encapsulates the essence of the discussion, drawing parallels between the vastness of the universe and the intricate challenges of fusion research. "Fatima, your summary of the scientist's plight is your cosmic perspective today," (55:53) he remarks, appreciating the depth of their conversation.

Notable Quote:

Ebrahimi (55:53): "Progress and discovery in fusion energy are ongoing and interconnected with various scientific and engineering advancements."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of StarTalk Radio offers an enlightening exploration of fusion energy, demystifying complex plasma physics concepts and highlighting the collaborative efforts driving this transformative field. Dr. Fatima Ebrahimi's insights, combined with the engaging banter between Tyson and Mercurio, provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the current state and future prospects of fusion energy. As the quest for sustainable power continues, the episode underscores the importance of patience, perseverance, and unwavering scientific curiosity.

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Notable Quotes Recap:

• Ebrahimi (04:03): "We are all floating in a plasma state in our universe."
• Ebrahimi (07:32): "If you want to go far, you need energy and you need fusion."
• Ebrahimi (17:40): "Inertial confinement means shooting lasers at very small, dense targets to achieve fusion."
• Ebrahimi (35:28): "Plasma rockets are highly efficient in terms of exhaust velocity and fuel flexibility."
• Ebrahimi (54:44): "Progress happened like that. It's not sudden; it's the continuous work of scientists and long-term investments."
• Ebrahimi (54:33): "It's the continuous work of scientists, long-term investments, and collaboration that drive progress in fusion energy."
• Ebrahimi (55:53): "Progress and discovery in fusion energy are ongoing and interconnected with various scientific and engineering advancements."

---

Stay tuned for more insightful discussions on StarTalk Radio as Neil deGrasse Tyson continues to bridge the gap between science, pop culture, and comedy.

Transcript

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[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Finally catching up with what fusion is doing here on Earth.

[Paul Mercurio]

What it's doing on earth and where we're gonna be.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Cause I know what it's doing in the universe. The sun is plasma. The sun and doing fusion, the whole universe is this. How about on Earth's surface? We need it here, we need it.

[Paul Mercurio]

Now, and we need it locally.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

And save money.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And when is it gonna happen?

[Paul Mercurio]

That's gonna be something we're gonna find out.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Welcome to StarTalk, your place in science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil DeGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. I got with me Paul Mercurio.

[Paul Mercurio]

Paul, what's up?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Co hosting today.

[Paul Mercurio]

Good to see you my friend.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Good to see you, man.

[Paul Mercurio]

This is always fun.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Love you. And you, you always doing interesting stuff.

[Paul Mercurio]

I'm trying.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. You got your own like off Broadway show.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah. That would. And then became Broadway and then we now we're taking it out around the country.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So I was going to ask you when's gonna get on Broadway?

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, we're gonna.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

We're coming back seeing you in the streets off Broadway.

[Paul Mercurio]

We ran into each other with nine people across from the late show Off Broadway. They loved it. Yeah, yeah. Called Permission to speak and it's directed by Frank Oz.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

We love Frank Oz.

[Paul Mercurio]

It's the best and we. It involves people telling stories and connecting people through shared stories.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So you're interacting with the audience.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yes, bringing them on stage, telling My own stories. We were just in Florida with it. We're gonna be in Rhode island and people can go to PaulMercurio.com to see where we're gonna be.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Mercurio.

[Paul Mercurio]

Mercurio. M E C U R I O Love you.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Love it. Love it. So you know what we got today? The day has to arrive in all of our lives when you wanna be in arm's reach of a fusion expert.

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, I'm glad I could be here.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You could be.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, her. I'm sorry.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

For Tina. I'm Ebrahimi. Did I pronounce that correctly? Fatima.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Almost.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Fatima Ibrahimi.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes. Fatima Ibrahimi.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, see, I got that. The last one. Okay, I love it. You have a PhD in Plasma Physics. That's a whole thing, not just physics.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Plasma.

[Paul Mercurio]

Very specific.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You got to say plasma.

[Paul Mercurio]

Plasma.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Plasma.

[Paul Mercurio]

Plasma.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You heard me, I said it. Right. And you're a research scientist at the Princeton plasma Physics Laboratory. PPPL out there in Princeton, New Jersey.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Up Route 1, I think.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fusion. Come.

[Paul Mercurio]

There's a fabulous Home Depot right there. Big fan.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So this is. People have heard fusion. They've heard the word, and they've heard the word plasma. And most people think blood plasma. This is a completely different plasma. Right. Blood plasma is like what's left over in your body.

[Paul Mercurio]

Body, Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I mean, after you take out the red blood cells.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right, Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah. So this is not that at all, right?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

No, not that.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Let's start off, get the vocabulary on the table. What is a plasma?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So plasma is the fourth state of matter. And it's 99% of observable universe is plasma.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So it's really the first state of matter.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You want to think of it that way.

[Paul Mercurio]

And it's very unstable, right? It's unstable.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

No, not necessarily. Don't disagree.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Just because you wrote notes doesn't mean you're correct. Okay. Continue, Fatima.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

It's actually we are all floating in a plasma state in our universe. So. And if you want to see what is actually plasma is. Is when, you know, electrons are kind of freely moving and charged particles, negative charged particles, ions, positive charged particles. It's basically a soup of, you know, charged particles as plasma is.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All right, so why is it that we always, in physics we see plasma joined together with the word fusion? Why are they relevant to each other?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Because our sun, that Korean. That actually produces a lot of energy, is through fusion energy. And that is in a plasma state.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So plasma, in order to get a plasma, it has to be very hot.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Nothing is a cold plasma, is there?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes. Actually, for the case of fusion, it has to be 100 million degrees to actually achieve fusion. But plasmas, you know, they could have variety of temperature. It could be low temperature plasmas.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Then you're not going to have fusion.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly. Plasmas could also be lightening strikes. That's plasma.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So I remember this. Not a toy, this thing you could buy. Remember Spencer Gifts? Anyone older than 70 will remember Spencer.

[Paul Mercurio]

Lava lamps.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, lava lamps. One of them was this ball. It had this sort of glowing thing in it. And you put your hand on the ball and it would react to your hand touching the surface.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly. Because it's charged particles. You know, all of these, you know, the plasma kind of.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It makes it glow.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly. Glow. Because particles could also can de excite and kind of produce photons and lights and things.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so the electrons recombine.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And every time they recombine, they give off light.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly. Excite and recombine and de excite and you get the light.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So that's a plasma that's not at very high temperature.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right, Exactly. Okay.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

It was just like a candle is also a plasma, but a flame. It's a flame. The flame of a candle is. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All right, so now you need high temperature for fusion.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

What are you fusing?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

It's actually required for fusion. High temperature is required to fuse really light atoms, hydrogen, and also isotrope of hydrogen, heavier hydrogen, deuterium, and a little bit heavier tritium, with having two actually neutrons. So they can collide and they can fuse and. And it has to be really, really high temperature to be able to kind of overcome these forces and create a lot of energy through neutrons.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So the forces are. Because you have a positively charged proton over here and another positively charged proton over here. Like charges repel.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Right, Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They don't want to get together.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And you're trying to overcome this.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

With high temperature. Because high temperature means higher speeds within the soup.

[Paul Mercurio]

And you're able to achieve the high temperatures. Or we're still working toward. The temperatures have to be high.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

The temperature. Actually you can get very high temperature.

[Paul Mercurio]

But are we there yet?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's what the protons ask on their long journeys. Are we there yet?

[Paul Mercurio]

Are we there? I have to go to the bathroom. We're not pulling over.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, we achieve. Really. Actually in the experiments or facilities that we have to create, you know, high temperature plasmas to get to fusion, we really get to high temperatures. The temperature we actually achieve in a fusion experiment is even Hotter, you know, than the center of the sun.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, the center of the sun is like 10 million degrees. Something like that.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes. This is 100 million degrees.

[Paul Mercurio]

What do you generate? What are you using?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They're trying to make another star.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

What are you. Jenner, how do you. This isn't on, is it.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This kind of stuff that like when you were a little girl, were you doing these kinds of experiments in your basement? And then your parents said, we got it. That's how the nemesis to superheroes are done. I'm going to make something hotter than the center of the sun.

[Paul Mercurio]

We just got you an easy Bake oven. Well, I'm going to turn it into.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I gave it more power.

[Paul Mercurio]

I gave it more power and now it's 10 million to. You know what I'm baking? Plasma. And you're gonna like it. You want it with or without mozzarella cheese?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

No.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The lights of the town go.

[Paul Mercurio]

As Fatima again.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah. Yep. You don't have to confess to that. That's fine. So how do you get high temperature?

[Paul Mercurio]

Yes, how?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because as I understand it, in order to make the plasma high temperature, something else has to be at a higher temperature than it is that right?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

You get the high temperature because plasmas, you know, carry electrons and current. Electricity. Current you could say.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because they can.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

They can. Exactly. They can. So therefore they can get to very high speed and high temperature. So the question is that. So you get this soup. How do you. Where it's going to go? So how do you confine it if.

[Paul Mercurio]

It'S 100 million degrees? What are you putting it in? To contain it? To control it.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

To control it is put a lot of energy through magnets.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So a magnetic field is not a physical thing. So you can't melt that. And all your charged particles, they respond to magnetic fields.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Electromagnetism, it's another force that our universe is electromagnetic force. Yes. That is long range. It's one of the fundamental forces, you know, electromagnetic forces everywhere. You know, our sun, all the stars, you know, wherever you have plasma, you have electromagnetic forces and they respond to it. So you have the gas you need to make the state of plasma. Which means that you can, you know, have some waves going into the gas, like antennas and create your plasma. You could induce inductively current into your particles, plasmas. It can go around your chamber, which we are talking about a tokamak chamber, a donut shaped chamber.

[Paul Mercurio]

So a tokamak.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right. Cause Princeton has a tokamak.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, yes, it has a tokamak.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

What does that Word even mean?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Because it's Russian.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Oh, it's Russian. That's a Russian name.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

It's two Russian. Russian scientists called this configuration Tocco and Mack.

[Paul Mercurio]

They were a great act in the 70s in Atlantic City. They worked the Stardust, they worked the Flamingo.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so I did not know that it's named for actual scientists.

[Paul Mercurio]

So when you say it.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

No, it's not actual scientists. The two scientists actually called it. It's kind of their invention. Tokamak.

[Paul Mercurio]

So when you say this chamber.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

The chamber is basically sort of harnessing or controlling the plasma.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's the donut shape.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

The donut shape. Exactly.

[Paul Mercurio]

Being heated. Incredible temperatures.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly. Various ways of heating the gas become plasma, and heating the plasma to really, really high temperature.

[Paul Mercurio]

But are we heating it to the point where we're at the cusp of being able to use nuclear fusion and get nuclear fusion that then propelled rockets through space much more quickly?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

The rocket is a plasma propulsion. You actually get rid of the plasma you make from the back of the rocket. You're not confining it with magnetic field.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So the plasma rockets don't use fusion.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Not necessarily. They don't have to use fusion. But if you kind of. You know that in space, we don't have any power or any. There's no gas station. The only thing we have is our sun sitting there, and it's only going to give some amount of energy.

[Paul Mercurio]

There are rest stops with McDonald's.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So if you want to go far, you need energy and you need fusion. If you're going to go stay around with solar panels, you have enough energy to use locally, you could use that for just propulsion.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I remembered reading.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because I know enough to know that in any gas at any temperature, not all particles are moving at the same speed. Some are slow, some are fast. The temperature is the average speed that everybody's moving. All right. I remembered that there's some method where you can pick off the fastest moving particles and put them over here, and their average temperature is gonna be higher than where they came from.

[Paul Mercurio]

Here we go. Treat them special. Put them in the slower group.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But they're the fast classes.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, they're in a special class.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Leave everybody else behind.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, my God.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And so you're cherry picking the fastest moving particles. Is that a thing? Am I remembering that correctly?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Conventionally, it's usually a collective, you know, heating. You know, it's basically, you have true current. You know, it's like current. Now, plasma also carry current. Current itself can heat. You know, really. It can actually. It's basically ohmic heating. That's one way of heating the plasma.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So that heats up internally.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's not hotter on the outside. You make it hot on the inside.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah, it makes it hot. That's one way. That's a conventional way of actually heating up the plasma. The first way to do it.

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[Paul Mercurio]

Hello, I'm Finky Maroque Allan and I.

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Support StarTalk on Patreon. This is StarTalk with Nailed Grass Tyson.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I spent 10 years at Princeton and this is long ago. Yeah, like I'm old man now. In my day.

[Paul Mercurio]

We didn't have electricity. We would just yell and someone would hear us.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So in my day at Princeton, every year there was talk of people saying we're almost there by producing more energy than we put in, which would then make it an energy source for the world. A very inexpensive energy source using readily available ingredients like hydrogen, which you will find at your neighborhood water molecule. They would say, oh, it's just five years away. And that was 30 years ago.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So what's going on.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

You're almost there.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, my God.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So wait, wait, wait. Let's back up. So Princeton has a tokamak, but Lawrence Livermore has a different configuration.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So there are two approaches. One is just tokamak, actually, fusion. Princeton has a special tokamak. It's called a spherical tokamak, which is kind of not like a donut, it's like a fat donut or corn.

[Paul Mercurio]

How is that different than a standard tokamak?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

The nice thing is that it's more compact.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, okay.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So that's another difference is the main thing.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So a really puffy donut.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly. You could say that the puffy donut.

[Paul Mercurio]

It was created by a fluffinator, which was.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I remember that.

[Paul Mercurio]

Fluffinator, remember?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I think.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So it's a tokamak, but a spherical tokamak. And it's very special because of compactness and other things. And so by using magnetic field, you actually confine the plasma.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so there's that. So now let's go to Lawrence Livermore in Livermore, California.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

It's so called inertial confinement. Means that by shooting lasers at very small, dense target, you get fusion. So our plasma at pppl, Princeton Plasma Physics Lab, is not that dense, but we have very high temperature. And so there's something we call a little bit specific, something called Lawson criteria, which is basically the multiplication of the confinement time, how hot you get your density. So each combined. And if it's larger than something, you say that, oh, I achieved fusion. So inertial confinement has, you know, more.

[Paul Mercurio]

Generates a denser.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Denser. Exactly.

[Paul Mercurio]

Of all of those factors is density. The most important thing that gets you.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

To the sun gets high density for free. Because you're in the center of the freaking sun. Yes, it's dense there. So they get free density.

[Paul Mercurio]

But what you're generating at PPBL is not as dense. So, yes, sort of like it's what I would get at Walmart versus Saks. Like, if I were buying a product, it would be like the lower end.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's the first time most of your stores have ever been in the same sentence. Ever. Wait, so you can have it dense but not hot or hot but not dense.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And some combination of those two will get you the fusion.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes. Do we know the optimum point?

[Paul Mercurio]

Do you know the optimum?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So, yes, we know the optimal. Is that you want to. First of all, fusion was achieved in 19, around 1995, but I have to.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Correct that fusion was achieved like in 1947. It was just uncontrolled and we called it a bomb at all times. She's referring to control, fusion control. Now pick up the story where you left off. Where we're safe, we've done. We got fusion.

[Paul Mercurio]

It's everywhere.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

We got fusion.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Correct. Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, that's the H bomb. Uses the A bomb as a trigger for it. That's to give scale of this.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

The controlled fusion was done at Princeton Plasma Physics lab in the device called TFDR test fusion reactor. It was obtained in achieved. It was a. You know, we obtained fusion. It was achieved in the 90s here at Princeton Plasma Physics lab and also at another experiment Jet in Europe later. So. And about 10 million Joule energy was, you know, 10 megawatt million watt power was obtained. So we've got fusion.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The question is that one joule per second is one watt.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so she's thinking joules and energy. But watts is a power.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Well, watt is the correct one. It's 10 megawatt. And actually the record is 17 megawatt later. So it's around that much.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But I have a question. You have this big fat donut.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

All right. And the whole thing is plasma. But if you hit the fusion threshold, does the whole thing undergo fusion? Because in Lawrence Livermore they know if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen in that little pocket that they created.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah, it's basically in the vessel, in the core of the vessel. So it's kind of your plasma. It's in the core. It actually needs to finally touch the wall. And that's where you actually get the energy.

[Paul Mercurio]

It's touching the magnetic field around.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Actually there is real wall. It's magnetic field all around. Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

Made of drywall, like plasterboards.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

We call it blanket that actually.

[Paul Mercurio]

But what forms the blanket in all seriousness, like what creates the wall?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

How does that work? It's a various solution for wall. You know, it could be tungsten, but.

[Paul Mercurio]

Does it come as a virus material? It's a byproduct of the way you're manipulating the plasma a wall creates out of that.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

No, actually, no. You actually put a physical. It's a physical wall.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So why is it only measured when it touches the wall?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Because it's not measured. It's actually the plasma heat is being measured in the core. Yes, yes. And that's when you get really hot plasma.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So what do you need the wall for?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Because it has to be confined and the plasma needs to meet some boundary.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But we thought that was the magnetic field.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right. Isn't that the magnetic field?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So the magnetic field is all around the torus, all around the donut. Okay, so the magnetic field.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So the manipulate gives it its shape.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, exactly. Give it a shape. So you could say at all, you could think that you could put direct magnets around your, your vessel, or you actually put coils that goes around your vessel and then the wall and then.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

The plasma have these magnetic fields. We've all played with iron filings and magnets. And you can see magnetic field lines and they form these loops, these toroidal loops. Okay. I know that on the surface of the sun, because it doesn't rotate as a solid object, there are these magnetic fields in there that get stretched as the sun rotates its equator faster than other regions. And there are points where the magnetic fields snap, they break, and then they like reconnect. Does that happen in your space?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, it happens on the surface of the sun exactly the way you said sun. Actually, as you correctly mentioned, it's in a plasma state. Also create fusion energy. So a lot of energy in there. Another thing sun creates is magnetic field. All the motions of the plasma there creates magnetic field. So I'm creating magnetic fields. I need to get rid of this magnetic field somehow. These invisible field lines that I'm creating. Where does it go? It goes to the surface and it kind of goes up like loops and then the loops kind of at some point the invisible field lines. One go up, one go down and then they snap. They kind of cancel each other and then they. There's. We call it detachment. The whole loop kind of get away and it's chaotic.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right. I mean, it's sort of. It's not. It's sort of like a bunch of people. Well, it's not control. It's like a bunch of, of five year olds in kindergarten on Skittles. You can't control them.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

They're like on Skittles. Oh, okay, okay.

[Paul Mercurio]

But is it right?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes or no. It could be places that is really chaotic. But also it could be like collective, you know, ropes of magnetic field. They come together. They, you know, they kind of cancel each other magnetic field and then you get the reconnection site and then the whole thing like detached the plasma and the magnetic field.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This is how you know that physics do this. Not astronomers, because the people who study that are called magnetohydrodynamicists.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh my God.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That's just. That should not be a word.

[Paul Mercurio]

No. How does one long business card with.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

A fold out extra section.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, this is your business card.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's like that, you know, just, just. So let's get back to the energy. And then I want to go to rockets.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So if you're gonna be useful to anybody, you can't just make energy under the ground in Princeton, New Jersey. It's gotta be. I don't wanna call it portable, but it's gotta be scalable. So you can move it to a town that can generate energy that has no radioactive byproducts. You can generate it 24 7. And you're just using hydrogen.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Whose method will be better for this? The 1. The inertial confinement from Lawrence Livermore or the Tokamak design from Princeton and other places.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

You have to pursue all the methods. It's actually what I'm trying to say.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, man, I didn't know I was in Congress right now.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

That was what you said about members of Congress. But, Senator, we need to pursue All America is great.

[Paul Mercurio]

I like Kai.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

And you even don't know about other methods. We call this some more innovative alternate method, but again, using magnetic field to kind of confine plasma and get fusion energy. So all of them need to. But all of them need to get to some condition. And the condition is that you produce more energy than you put otherwise.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

What's the point?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

What's the point? Exactly. It's kind of the net gain that you kind of need to get. And we haven't got there engineering wise, physics wise, scientifically, maybe in some range we can say that, oh, we got energy from fusion. And as I said, this happened also in the 90s, you know, at PPPL.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. There's a little bit of a overstatement about the Livermore experiment because that one had net extra energy from the experiment. And so this was a. It was championed, but the extra energy they got was relative to the energy that they put in. In this little spot. It didn't add up. The whole system that made the thing a thing to begin with. Right, Right. So it wasn't the total energy budget of the experiment. It was just the energy budget of the low collar.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

On the target.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, on the target.

[Paul Mercurio]

It had to be attached to that target or near that target to be. Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And that's how they make the measurements. So I think, correct me if I'm wrong, if you're going to scale that, presumably you get some good engineers in there to say, how do we make this littler. And you can make this more efficient and that. And then you just run the energy.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

You need to also make better lasers, more efficient lasers, because the efficiency of it is not too great.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right. Because you have to put Energy in the lasers to make the better.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah, the lasers are going. Exactly. So engineering net gain is not too high in that experiment, but the physics gain. But the physics gain was good. And also the physics gain is also for magnetic confinement. We have good gain before, and we are actually moving toward it with various configuration.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay.

[Paul Mercurio]

And all of this, the idea of excited particles, where does that fit into all of this? And sort of, how do you calm down an excited particle? Jazz music, I don't know, candles, scented candles. Like, how do you.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You asking her how does she cool down the plasma? Is that what you're asking?

[Paul Mercurio]

Makes sense, right?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because the whole plasma is excited particles.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right. But there's specific things that you do to control the excited particles.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Oh, yes, yes. I think that you just want the whole hot, you know, plasma confined, controlled in a. And self heated because it kind of. Interestingly, if it gets to some temperature, it can kind of on its own, can get, you know, heated the plasma for a long, long time and produce a lot of energy. And that is fusion system or reactor. And we have made a lot of progress in each, you know, part of.

[Paul Mercurio]

It, but as usual, we're not there yet.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

That's how good it is.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So, House, how many. How many years from now can I plug in my wall and the energy on the other side of that plug is fusion?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So, I mean, you know that.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

She's gonna say five years away. Then I told her. Okay, we're listening. Go on.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

You know that.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You didn't hear that? You didn't hear this?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

I mean, you know that, like, diesel engines are lots of, you know, advancement.

[Paul Mercurio]

Excuse me, Senator, Senator, could I have the witness answer the question, please, directly?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

She mentioned diesel engines. That is not on the table right now.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So it all takes decade. Yes. And fusion is. We are. It's a new physics frontiers, the whole plasma physics. When an experiment, you know, is run, you kind of get into the new regime.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Cause when you're doing actual research, you're on a frontier, right?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You're not.

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, I was just.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You're stepping where no one has stepped before. So you're gonna discover new things.

[Paul Mercurio]

So you're gonna discover. And you're gonna discover hurdles that you could not have pre. Seriously. Right. So in other words.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly.

[Paul Mercurio]

So I mean, that's the issue, right?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes. You get into new regime, you discover new things. And the whole. In fact, actually the whole rocket system, it was, you know, a discovery in a fusion system, you know, so let's.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Pivot to that right now, because it's still Decades away before she's gonna make my electricity all right.

[Paul Mercurio]

I mean miss easy Bake oven over here cranking stuff up when she was 10. But she can't.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Commercially you commercially viable. I mean, you know, but everyone knows fusion in a laboratory.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Everyone knows how important that is culturally.

[Paul Mercurio]

Do we have any practical application of fusion right now in any capacity that.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Bombs other than bombs in a shorter time scale? We do not have to have a large scale fusion system to kind of give electricity to a whole city. We could have compact design for taking, you know, for, for space.

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[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right now and forever. Yeah, as long as we've had rockets.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

We've been using what we we call chemical fuels, which means they're molecules that have energy contained within them. And you break apart the molecule, the energy escapes and that is our energy source. And so that has not advanced in a hundred years because you scientists are.

[Paul Mercurio]

Lazy, you're not really trying.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

We use different chemicals or we have solid rocket boosters. That's a different propulsion Chemical than the.

[Paul Mercurio]

Big tank, but essentially the same concept.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's the same concept. And so tell me about plasma rockets, because there's a lot written about it and we're not even talking about fusion yet. We're just keeping. In your plasma universe.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Tell me.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Plasma propulsion is the. Basically we are talking about the next generation of rockets, specifically plasma rockets.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And they're highly efficient.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, yes, they are highly efficient in terms of. So there are several things about them, is that the exhaust velocity is really high.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

What's hard for people to see just being Earth surface dwellers, because you say if I want to go forward, I just have to run or step on the gas. You're doing that at the expense of Earth beneath your feet. So the only reason why you can go forward is because Earth is. You're putting friction between your foot on the Earth and you're changing the rotation of the Earth slightly.

[Paul Mercurio]

You're pushing back on.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You're pushing back on. You have something to push back on.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right. So this is in space. You have nothing.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You got nothing to push back on. So the only way you can change your speed is to give something up.

[Paul Mercurio]

And what are we giving up?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Mass. Take it from there.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, you take it. And in this case, it's just. You create a plasma or plasmoid through the process of like solar flares, magnetic reconnection. And you detach these, continuously detach these plasma from the back of the rocket and at high velocity.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because it's at high temperature. At high temperature you get high speed.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, high speed. And the rocket is being propelled forward. And it's not. It doesn't have to be high temperature. The interesting about the magnetic reconnection is that magnetic energy is being converted to kinetic energy. So it's all magnetic? Yes, it's like the solar doesn't have to be.

[Paul Mercurio]

So this is like you want to get from point A to point B with this. You snap your fingers, you're there. It's like badass.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, no, no, no.

[Paul Mercurio]

Badass. Google maps.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

No, no. It's different because the particle comes out the back and the rocket recoils from it. But by how much it's efficient. But what's the mass?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

The mass is not too much. So there are various.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's a tiny mass at high speed and I have a high mass thing on the other side that can only then go forward at low speed. Right. So how am I gonna get anywhere?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

You're going to get anywhere by kind of having high thrust, high force, and that is through again, exhaust velocity. You get it and it's constantly, you're kind of pushing it, you know, it's like a constant acceleration. You get somewhere in a space it's different from.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Right, so you wouldn't use plasma rockets to launch.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

No, no, no, no.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because they don't have that much. You can't send out that much mass because anytime you see a rocket, there's exhaust. This is coming out.

[Paul Mercurio]

So you've got to use this comes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Out and it goes the other way.

[Paul Mercurio]

Use rocket fuel to get it there.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

To get it there and then through empty space.

[Paul Mercurio]

What about like some in crazy. It's just sort of like a massive wi fi spot that's like got incredible power. Is that what this plasma thing where we're going with this?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Well, it's I think from what I've read, but you're in the middle of it, so just correct me if I'm wrong. When you're in free space, in open space, and then you turn on your plasma rocket, it's like one particle at a time and so you slowly accelerate. But acceleration is a constant. In this case increase in your velocity.

[Paul Mercurio]

There's resistance coming on the rock.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

There's no resistance out there. It's a recoil. Right. But since it's constant and you do it for a long time, you can reach very high speeds.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly how fast can you go? So based on the results that we have, and we are actually building this tabletop prototype at the plasma. No, no tabletop.

[Paul Mercurio]

We're building this. I'm using my oven at the lab.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

You're building it. You can get to 100, 500 kilometer per second. So it's still.

[Paul Mercurio]

So you can, that rocket can move at that speed.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Could you have a sunroof on the.

[Paul Mercurio]

Rocket at that speed or would that.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Be probably a sunroof to see just.

[Paul Mercurio]

To, you know, just looking up.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Well, what is up.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, that's true.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

But you need to get to that speed. You know, if you go to the moon, you don't need that much of a speed. And you could do it with this plasmoid rocket. You can do small payloads in three weeks or something with this plasma rocket. And it's not that this is sci fi. No, this is actually for real because we do plasma propulsion with just electric fields. Now we are doing magnetic using electromagnetic field. Using magnetic field.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But it takes us a long time. Astronauts Apollo, they got there in three days.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

But we are doing the fast. You know, it's efficient.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Efficient.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

It's efficient. It means that you go back and forth it's not expensive. The fuel, it's flexible. You could use really hydrogen. You know, the one that we want to use for fusion, you use really light atoms. So it's efficient. So it's fuel flexible and it's efficient.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so you would use this, this.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Would be, it's like a nice.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This would be the delivery vessel for supplies.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because you can just plan ahead, send it three weeks in advance and then we get there quickly and supplies are very heavy. Right, but you'll get there.

[Paul Mercurio]

But wait, we're using this plasma technology to get the, to get the supplies there.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Well, I think the point is, because you're just sending these very low mass particles though they're traveling high speeds, they're. The recoil is small but real and measurable and it accumulates. So if we were to fly humans with one of these rockets, it would only make sense if we were going to like Pluto or something or to the nearest star.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah, for. Then you need for, to use this plasmoid propulsion, you need nuclear energy fusion or some kind of a battery to kind of give you both force the thrust. Yet you need like the light. Can you control it?

[Paul Mercurio]

If you're approaching a planet's atmosphere, can you control. Yes, because otherwise are you just driving that rocket right through the center of that?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Well, that's a big problem in space travel because if you can accelerate and you want to land somewhere, you have.

[Paul Mercurio]

To, you can't just pull up like a right, right.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

There's no right, right. So what you have to do is like, you know, flip the ship around and then have it, and have it send out particles the other way. So then it's a negative acceleration, a deceleration. And so that eats up some of your plan. But might we use this going to Mars, do you think?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, yes, because of the. Again, it's because of efficiency. You could use chemical rockets in 10.

[Paul Mercurio]

Years.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

To go there once if you use all the resources you have. But you really need plasma propulsion for getting to the Mars. You also need the energy for that. And that's what the compact fusion compact system come. That's why we work on that.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so the plasma rocket is not the same thing as a plasma fusion rocket. Cause the fusion is just a whole other source of energy.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah, so the plasma rocket, the energy can come from just some solar panels. Because for example, for the moon we have sun sitting there. So we can get, you know, use the solar panels to get the power.

[Paul Mercurio]

But that can't be the level of, compared to plasma fusion getting through O3 solar panels cannot give you the same level.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

It's enough from there.

[Paul Mercurio]

I want more than enough. I want the best. I'm an American and that's how we do this in America.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

But we, we don't even have that. This is like a FedEx going to moon coming back. Yes, that's what we are talking about very efficiently. And you don't need that much of a power to do that. Like 500 kilowatt is enough. You don't need million dollars.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right. So they get there faster. But the guy still leaves the package like 20ft from your door. And you have to walk out in.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Your underwear to get pirates steal it. Right.

[Paul Mercurio]

Now nothing changes with two scientists. You don't really.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

You walk out in your underwear to get your packages. Okay, I will port you.

[Paul Mercurio]

My neighbors requested that.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Wait, so I just want to settle my understanding on this. When you have a plasma, you have high moving particles. You can send them out the back and you recoil.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And the acceleration is slow, but it's steady. And it accumulates.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, so if you have solar panels, the solar panel is not itself a propulsion mechanism, but it's a source of energy.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And you can channel that energy back into your plasma and keep the plasma going as long as we're close enough to the sun.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, now you're really far from the sun. You still need an energy source. And what would that energy source be if you can't use solar panels anymore because the sun is too dim? Would that be the fusion source?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, it's fusion. It has to be non chemical.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes. And non chemical.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So it has to be non chemical.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So a fusion source of energy would still be heating the plasma.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, it could be.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's still a plasma rocket.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Basically. Yes. The fusion.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I had not appreciated that. It's still a plasma rocket.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly, exactly. It's still a plasma rocket because. Because your magnets, you know, first of all, you can use several. But you still have to power your rocket. And the source of power, it could be solar panel or it could be. Yeah. Non chemical fusion energy. This is one thing.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Plus plenty of hydrogen gas in the universe.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, definitely.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So you can scoop it up, put it in. So there are filling stations in the universe.

[Paul Mercurio]

I told you that when it's going through space, is the plasma sort of, sort of morphing and changing. And you have to account for that. I mean, because it can survive. My understanding is it can survive plasma in various states. Right. I would imagine you have not been able to document every state that it can survive in. Right. It's an ever evolving science.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So it's just that basically you need. The fuel here is like hydrogen, helium. You have the fuel, you can, you can actually use the local resources in a space for the fields.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And NASA calls it isru.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

In Situ Resource Utilization.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

Ah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Which is a terrible acronym, but yeah, isru, that's the big thing.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because then you don't have to haul everything with you.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly. So that you want to be. That's why we call it efficient. Basically it's fuel flexibility that you can kind of. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be helium, it could be hydrogen, any kind. And it doesn't have to be argon because some of the electric propulsion, your gases are argon.

[Paul Mercurio]

Don't even get me started with argon. That's a ridiculous waste of time.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But why argon? Why not Krypton or all of them?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

They could be any kind of gas.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I told her she was a superhero, she was going to use krypton.

[Paul Mercurio]

I was just going to say I told her I'm weak around here. Yeah. So there's. It can't exist on its own. It needs some other source of energy.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

But what can't exist?

[Paul Mercurio]

The plasma.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

The plasma. Then you kind of. You draw. You draw some. You create it, you ionize it. You create the plasma. Yes. So that's the specific. You have to read the paper and the patent to actually you see how the plasma is created from this fuel, local fuel, and then you get the plasma. But as soon as you create a plasma, you get rid of it from the back of your rocket in the process of magnetic reconnection.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And you've gotta lose some of your mass every time you gonna go anywhere.

[Paul Mercurio]

But that's what I was saying earlier. Magnetic reconnection is plasmoids get created, they're not very unstable, but then become over time unstable and decay. Magnetic reconnection sort of does this constant instability in how you control that. And are you still working on being able to control that?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So for rockets, for plasma propulsion, we are not confining anything. So we don't. Basically, we don't care about stability. Because in a fusion device you confine plasma, you don't want it to go unstable. For a rocket, you just make the plasma, you use the magnetic field and.

[Paul Mercurio]

Then you just pollute space.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes, exactly.

[Paul Mercurio]

I get it.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly, exactly. You get rid of it, then you make new plasma and get rid of it. And then the rocket just gradually goes.

[Paul Mercurio]

One dimensional and that's why you need 1800 gut junk for space. Because you're just putting garbage into space. But that attitude.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

I understand, but the plasma is not really a junk. Because As I said, 99% of our observable universe is plasma. It's basically some charged particles you have in space that you always have low density plasma everywhere in space.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

She was good. She said the observable universe. Universe. Because we don't see the dark matter. We don't know what the hell that is. But it's not plasma.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So she got that.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you could say that is.

[Paul Mercurio]

But aren't you altering with this plasma coming out of the back of a rocket?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

Aren't you altering space in a way by putting these particles in space?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

If space is 99% plasma to begin.

[Paul Mercurio]

With, it's just like putting more water in a pool.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, it doesn't care.

[Paul Mercurio]

It's like putting more hair gel on my hair.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Fifth state of matter.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah. We are floating in plasma in the universe anyway. So you cannot make some little plasma and get rid of it. Go somewhere.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Universe, one mind.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah, universe, one mind. Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So Fatima, I gotta land this plane.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So I want straight answers. You're in Congress now. Professor Ibrahimi. How soon are we from having plasma energy generating centers in every city?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

We are close. Actually it's a. Can you give us a number?

[Paul Mercurio]

But five years.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

I would say five to 10 years.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay. January20, 30. They're gonna be right there.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

We got our number.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

So in terms of that, what that.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Is, we'll drag you back in here.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, but that's a scientific net gain. I said okay. If you want to put it on. The engineers are good.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I'm not worried about the engineers. They come through when you need them. Okay, that's first. Second, when will we have rockets with humans in them that will use plasma propulsion and will the first trip to Mars use it?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

The first trip? I don't know. Because it's possible that if you put. If all the resources are put there, you could get there once with chemical propulsion. But again to be. To have a sustainable kind of travel. So you need plasma propulsion.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Does NASA have a group working on plasma propulsion or do they call you up to get there? What do we do next? Fatima?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes. Give me more funding.

[Paul Mercurio]

There you go. I knew she'd be begging for money at some point. But can a human travel that fast? Under. Isn't that an issue? Plasma propulsion, I mean is.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

It's a slow acceleration.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Slower acceleration.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Your face is not going to do this.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

It's not. No, no, no, no, no.

[Paul Mercurio]

I wish you. I just wanted to get some of the lines out of that face high acceleration we got from plastic surgery.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Could I say that actually maybe we look at more closer terms, you know, places to go and I think moon could be. As I said it could be just plasma propulsion. You don't have to.

[Paul Mercurio]

What are we gonna do at the moon?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

We've been to the moon resources. There's also.

[Paul Mercurio]

I got moon rocks in my top drawer. In my drawer, everybody.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

One of the way to actually create fusion energy, it's something is called aneutronic, means that you kind of the other, you use deuterium, helium, you know, to create energy and you don't produce neutrons.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So that's just the PP chain in the center of the sun. There's no loose neutrons coming out of that.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes, exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Because neutrons are bad because they come out and they'll. Nothing stops them. They don't have a charge.

[Paul Mercurio]

They're very pushy.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Their advantage is they don't have to push. The other particles don't even know they're there. Am I right?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

With neutrons.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah. Yes, exactly.

[Paul Mercurio]

It's like dark matter neutrons.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a fun reaction in the sun. It's called the PP chain. Proton. Proton chain, exactly. It uses deuterium and tritium. No, I don't remember tritium. But we have helium three is in there.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly, exactly. Helium three. So you have also fuel for also fusion. So there are things there. And, and you want to make some steps for the next generation. You know, non chemical propulsion. You first make some good step progress and then gradually going further, you use fusion energy to go there. Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

So in this process you guys seem fairly lazy. You're taking your time. Five years. Are you using in all seriousness, are you using. How does AI factor into any of your work or will it in terms of the advancements you're going to. You're trying to make.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

It's a fantastic question. It's there.

[Paul Mercurio]

Can you just say that again? Fantastic question.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

I didn't hear it. I didn't hear her say that.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Fantastic. Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Actually she is AI right there. She doesn't really exist. Did you think she was real?

[Paul Mercurio]

I kept. And my finger goes right through. It goes through right through her leg. It's so weird. Yeah, exactly. I didn't want to say anything. I was like, you know, I think she's been around the plasma too much.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

She is plasma.

[Paul Mercurio]

I'm sitting next to a plasmoid don't tell her.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah, Yes, I think, yes, definitely. You know, computers, first of all, most of the progress we made in plasma physics and fusion have always been, you know, together. Experiments and advanced computation work together to make discoveries and also any kind of achievement, it has to be together.

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, I think we kind of need to wrap this.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Yes, we do.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yes, we do, unfortunately.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Well, Fatima, give me some words for the future.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Be patient in terms of.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Okay, you're fine. Okay. I'm sorry I asked.

[Paul Mercurio]

It's not the end. Well, how do you define future?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let me say for the future is that progress and discovery doesn't happen overnight. It's the continuous work of scientists, long term investments to kind of, you put all the energy you have, collaboration, all of that and cross pollination of various types of, you know, group working on various types of plasma or types of devices, fusion experiments. Progress happened like that. It's not so, it's just, it's also new physics we learn every day in every regime of plasmas, we learn new things and we apply it like this, you know, rocket thruster, we apply it for other applications. What we learn in fusion, we also apply it for other applications. And so it's just, it's an ongoing process. It's a continuous work.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So, Fatima, typically at the end of our sessions, I offer the viewer a cosmic perspective on the topic of the day. But you so beautifully summarized the plight of the scientist, the engineer society funding sources, that's any and all that I would have said in my cosmic perspective.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Thank you.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

So thanks for making my job just a little easier today. Good to have you, man.

[Paul Mercurio]

Always great to be here. Thank you.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Good luck. You need some of that sometimes, right?

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Yes.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

When you're messing with plasma.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

And one day you'll give us a tour of your basement.

[Fatima Ibrahimi]

Exactly. And listen, whatever you do, you're welcome, both of you.

[Paul Mercurio]

Thank you. And keep up your vague answers. That was really interesting. Very fascinating.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This has been startalk. Neil DeGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist, reporting from my office at the Hayden Planetarium, the American Museum of Natural History in New York City. As always, keep looking up.

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