The Gut-Brain Connection with Emeran Mayer

Summary

StarTalk Radio: The Gut-Brain Connection with Emeran Mayer – Detailed Summary

Introduction

In the March 21, 2025 episode of StarTalk Radio, hosted by astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, the spotlight turns to the intricate relationship between our gut and brain. Joining Tyson are co-hosts Chuck Nice and Gary O'Reilly, who engage in lively discussions with esteemed guest Emeran Mayer, a renowned gastroenterologist, neuroscientist, and author. Mayer's pioneering work bridges the fields of gastroenterology and neuroscience, focusing on the profound connections between the gut microbiome and mental health.

Understanding the Gut-Brain Connection

The episode delves into the concept that our gut and brain are in constant communication, influencing each other's function and our overall well-being. Chuck Nice opens the discussion by highlighting everyday experiences that reflect this connection: “We’ve seen people under stress dive into the fridge... They don’t say, I have a brain feeling. No, this is exactly it.” This sets the stage for exploring how physiological processes in the gut can mirror and influence our emotional states.

Emeran Mayer elaborates on this by emphasizing the complexity of the gut: “The gut is the most complex organ we have in the body after the brain. It’s not just a digestive tube; 70% of our immune system is embedded in the gut.” He explains that the gut houses a separate nervous system, often referred to as the “little brain,” which interacts seamlessly with the brain via the vagus nerve.

The Microbiome's Role

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the gut microbiome—the trillions of microorganisms residing in our digestive tract. Mayer shares fascinating insights from his research, including studies on the Yanomami Indians, whose traditional lifestyles result in the most diverse and richest microbiomes on the planet. “[Emeran Mayer, 05:12] These people that we visited and lived with, the Yanomami, have the healthiest microbiome on the planet.”

The microbiome's influence extends beyond digestion, playing a critical role in immune function, hormone production, and even mood regulation. Mayer explains, “There’s a bidirectional communication going on 24/7 between the gut and the brain. Anything that happens at the brain level has a mirror image in the gut.” This continuous interplay means that emotions can trigger physiological responses in the gut, and gut health can, in turn, impact mental health.

Therapeutic Approaches

The conversation shifts to therapeutic strategies that leverage the gut-brain connection to treat various conditions. Mayer discusses the role of hormones like GLP1 in regulating appetite and satiety. “[Emeran Mayer, 11:29] A lot of people have lost that mechanism... we use GLP1 injections to give that sensation.” These insights lead to a broader discussion on how manipulating gut hormones can influence behaviors and potentially treat disorders like obesity and substance abuse.

Another critical area Mayer explores is the use of fecal microbial transplants (FMT). He explains, “One of the most effective therapies is to get one of these transplants, these poop transplants. And so for a while, the person who got this transplant has the microbial composition of the donor.” FMT has shown remarkable success in treating conditions like C. difficile colitis by restoring a healthy microbiome, highlighting the profound impact gut health can have on overall well-being.

Challenges in Acceptance

Despite the compelling evidence supporting the gut-brain connection, Mayer acknowledges significant resistance within the medical community. “[Emeran Mayer, 07:09] It was a surprise to me because I’ve struggled... to get this concept... accepted as a major factor.” Traditional Western medicine, with its reductionist approach, often fragments the body into isolated systems. Mayer advocates for a more integrative perspective, where interconnectedness is paramount. He predicts a paradigm shift, “It will take another 10 years, I think, and then it will change,” illustrating optimism for broader acceptance of the gut-brain interplay.

Practical Recommendations

Mayer offers practical advice for listeners looking to optimize their gut health. Emphasizing the importance of a balanced diet, he advocates for what he terms the “Mediterranean lifestyle,” which encompasses not just food choices but also social interactions and overall lifestyle habits. “It’s not just the food; it’s the lifestyle. The food is a big part of the lifestyle,” Mayer advises.

He also addresses the proliferation of probiotics and other supplements, cautioning listeners to seek evidence-based treatments. “[Emeran Mayer, 44:54] The official organization of gastroenterology... hasn’t found good enough scientific evidence to recommend probiotics in general as a treatment for IBS.” Instead, Mayer emphasizes therapies like cognitive behavioral therapy and mindfulness-based stress reduction, which have proven more effective for conditions like irritable bowel syndrome (IBS).

Notable Quotes

• Chuck Nice [02:18]: "No, this is exactly it. And we've seen people who are under stress dive into the fridge... They don't say, I have a brain feeling."

• Emeran Mayer [07:12]: "The gut is the most complex organ we have in the body after the brain. It’s not just a digestive tube; 70% of our immune system is embedded in the gut."

• Emeran Mayer [08:45]: "There’s a bidirectional communication going on 24/7 between the gut and the brain. Anything that happens at the brain level has a mirror image in the gut."

• Chuck Nice [11:41]: "Heightened to create this sensation that really your body should have been producing all along."

• Emeran Mayer [17:16]: "Humans have been using psychedelics for a long, long, long time…"

• Emeran Mayer [43:41]: "IBS is now considered a disorder of altered gut-brain interactions."

• Chuck Nice [46:15]: "Don’t judge me because I like pie."

Conclusion

The episode culminates with a compelling case for recognizing and nurturing the gut-brain connection. Emeran Mayer underscores the necessity of integrating traditional and modern medical practices to fully harness the potential of our microbiome. “[Emeran Mayer, 51:00] My mission is to provide answers for people with trust and transparency... evidence-supported treatments.” The hosts and guest agree on the importance of continued research and public education to demystify the complexities of gut health and its profound impact on our lives.

Neil deGrasse Tyson wraps up the special edition by encouraging listeners to stay informed and open-minded about the evolving science of the gut-brain axis. As always, StarTalk Radio fosters an engaging and insightful exploration of science's role in everyday life, blending expertise with approachable dialogue.

Final Thoughts

This episode of StarTalk Radio offers an enlightening journey into the gut-brain connection, elucidating how our digestive health intricately shapes our mental and emotional states. Emeran Mayer's expertise provides listeners with a deeper understanding of how maintaining a healthy microbiome is pivotal for overall health. As the medical community gradually embraces these insights, the integration of gut-focused therapies alongside traditional treatments promises a holistic approach to wellness.

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Note: All timestamps referenced correspond to the provided transcript and highlight key moments within the episode.

Transcript

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

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[Gary O'Reilly]

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[Chuck Nice]

Did we just take one to the gut?

We did.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, look at that. I see what you a gut punch of a show. How many more puns can we come.

[Chuck Nice]

Up with that will leave you with food for salt?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, another pun. I love it. Okay, you guys just gotta tune in to figure out what we're talking about.

[Chuck Nice]

The mind, body, gut connection. Coming up on StarTalk. Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk special edition, which means I got Gary O'Reilly. Gary.

Hey, Neil.

How you doing, man? I'm good, Chuck. Good to have you, man.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Good to be here, of course.

[Chuck Nice]

All right. Today. Yeah, I'm checking out this subject. I love it.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay.

[Chuck Nice]

All right.

The gut brain connection.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Ah, some people's brains are the gut.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, we went philosophical straight away.

So, Gary, tell us why. What's going on in this episode?

Okay, so we've had everybody for our lives tell us they've had a gut feeling about something.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Gut feeling.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, and then we've seen people under stress dive.

They don't say, I have a brain feeling.

No, this is exactly it. And we've seen people who are under stress dive into the fridge. We've seen people who are depressed not want to eat at all. And then we kind of work out that our guts are not standalone systems within our body, that there is actually a direct gut brain connection. So that gut feeling may actually be a fact, not a fictional imagination of somebody. Now imagine, just imagine this, that every emotion you have has a mirror image within your gut.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, that Makes sense right now they call it hangry, don't they?

[Chuck Nice]

Don't they just.

I'm hangry.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I'm hangry.

[Chuck Nice]

And, you know, they're hip. Spoiler pun coming. That is obviously our food for thought. Ooh, I see what you did there. Now it's our time for an expert. So hit me.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And now I'm hungry.

[Chuck Nice]

There you go.

I see what you did there. Okay, we have with us here in New York City, visiting us at the Hayden Planetarium, right here in my office, a gentleman based at ucla. We have Emeran Meyer. Yes, I think I said your name correctly. Correctly. You're the medical doctor at ucla. You're a gastroenterologist, which is a lot of syllables to say you're a gut man. I think we like that. Am I correct?

Scrabble winner.

You're also a neuroscientist. You hardly ever see those two in the same phrase because your brain and the gut.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Well, more increasingly you do now, maybe so.

[Chuck Nice]

All right. And you're also an author. And the books, I got them here. Very simple. Mind and gut.

[Emeran Mayer]

Mind, gut connection.

[Chuck Nice]

Mind, gut connection. That was in 2016 with HarperCollins. And then mind, gut, and you added a word.

[Emeran Mayer]

Immune connection.

[Chuck Nice]

Immune connection.

[Emeran Mayer]

Ooh.

[Chuck Nice]

So the mind gut is taking over the body here.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

All right, we'll see where that can take us. And so my notes here say you're also a documentary filmmaker. What's up with that?

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah. I almost didn't go into medical school because I was fortunate. A retired businessman invited me several times to accompany him as a sound assistant to places in New guinea and on the Orinoco river to the Yanomami Indians and very formative experiences. And the nice thing is I can now reconnect back. I mean, I was just a first year medical student. Had no idea about any of the things I know today. These people that we visited and lived with, the Yanomami, are very interesting group of people that have the healthiest microbiome on the planet. So really found that out there.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And how did they poop three times a day? Well, that's where I was getting. I was like, how exactly did we determine that that they have the healthiest.

[Chuck Nice]

Are you digging into their poop in the forest?

[Emeran Mayer]

So there was a scientist, Gloria Dominguez, married to a very famous gastroenterologist and researcher. And they had the interest in studying the microbes of peoples around the world with what they call the vanishing microbe, losing microbes. So they went to the Yanomami and did the most Elaborate analyses, didn't do it there, obviously took the samples. And it turned out that this microbial system that these people had is the most diverse and richest of anybody on the planet.

[Chuck Nice]

They must have thought you were crazy. Can I have some of your poop from my lab back?

[Emeran Mayer]

I don't know.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I know some places in New York where you get charged extra for that.

[Chuck Nice]

So just to finish your resume here. So you are a professor in the departments of medicine, Physiology and psychiatry. So that's an evidence of your breadth and what you brought together for your studies.

[Emeran Mayer]

And it's guided me. So my career has led me down this path, starting in the gut and then always having an interest in the brain and the nervous system. And at some point they said it was necessary to connect to these other departments.

[Chuck Nice]

And that's at the David Geffen School of Medicine at ucla. Let's just get this started. What is the brain gut connection? And if I understand the timeline correctly, nobody was really talking about this until your books came out.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, really?

[Chuck Nice]

So you wrote the book. You're a pioneer on the.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, it was a surprise to me because I've struggled in my professional career for literally decades to get this concept of brain gut connections accepted as a major factor, not just as an epiphenomenon, but as a major disease factor in like inflammatory bowel disease and irritable bowel syndrome. Many of these what we call functional gastrointestinals.

[Chuck Nice]

It's the ibs, I guess you hear.

[Gary O'Reilly]

It all the time now.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, on TV commercials.

[Emeran Mayer]

And so it was like, was kind of amazing, that enthusiasm that gradually developed after the book. Not the first year, it was not really popular the first year, but then gradually it picked up. And now, if you could go online, every second word is gut health and foreign gut connection.

[Gary O'Reilly]

You hear about it all the time now in more of a cursory fashion. You know, there's not a lot of in depth talk about it, but what is your gut?

[Emeran Mayer]

Well, I mean, the gut, I would say, is the. After the brain, the most complex organ we have in the body. It's not just a digestive. It's a tube from, you know, from the mouth to the anus. And for a long time, digestion and absorption and storage of waste has been sort of the main focus of interest. In the meantime, we know that, you know, 70% of our immune system is embedded in the gut. Big portion of our hormonal system, endocrine system, is embedded in the gut. There's a separate nervous system in the gut. It's called the little brain. Mike Gershon here from New York, Columbia, sort of been a pioneer in describing and popularizing that concept.

[Chuck Nice]

Wait, so some people literally have their brain in their ass, is that what you're saying?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yes.

[Chuck Nice]

I know we probably don't know the same person, but we know they're like that. Yeah, yeah.

[Emeran Mayer]

But to sort of ramp up this, the answer, all these systems in the gut are interconnected with each other. So the gut is like a brain.

[Chuck Nice]

So who's talking to who? Is the brain talking to the gut or is the gut talking to the brain?

[Emeran Mayer]

No, first within the gut you have the immune system and the, you know, the microbes also live in the gut and the nervous system in the gut. They all communicate with each other all the time. So you don't know it. You know, right now if I could look inside of you, what's the right lens? You know, I would see all these things interacting and talking to each other. Then you add the brain to it and it's the same thing. There's a bi directional communication going on 24 7. Even when you sleep. Always. Anything that happens at the brain level, Gary said earlier, has a mirror image in the gut, which we don't see. You see it on your face, so if you're angry, I can see it on your face. We can see that the gut contracting when you're angry. But also a lot of things that go on in the gut generate emotional feelings, or Most of it, 95% doesn't become conscious. So that's the thing about the.

[Chuck Nice]

So we have receptors and transmitters. I can say it, but what are they? How are they activated, how are they working? Obviously not emailing each other, but.

And just to clarify, when you said it's not conscious, it means, if I understand that, it means you will have a feeling and you won't know why, but you'll then act on that feeling. And if it's your mind, gut connection controlling means you have behavior that's being commanded to you by microbes that you need a microscope to see.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yes, but what I want to say is for a lot of people, they're not aware of this. You know, they're very oblivious to their body.

[Chuck Nice]

They just have urges. Right?

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, yeah, but, but like a sensation that, that everybody knows is satiation. Hunger and satiation, absolutely. So these are the most basic gut feelings that people have.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And it's so funny you say that. When I was younger, my mother used to say I would eat and then I'd say I'm still hungry. And she would say, just wait 10 minutes and your stomach will talk to your brain and let it know that you're not hungry.

[Chuck Nice]

We'll catch up with the. Yeah, your brain will catch up with your stomach.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And I don't think, I don't know where she got that from, but damn if that's not the case.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, a lot of people have lost that mechanism. You know, like a big part about obesity is that that signal that comes from the gut, this GLP1, this molecule that everybody talks about, Everybody talks about, is produced in cells in the gut and goes to the hypothalamus in your brain and tells your brain to stop eating because you're full. A lot of people have lost that mechanism, that feedback. Why that is. But it's not clear. But so what do you now do with mega doses of this hormone?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Right.

[Emeran Mayer]

100 times higher than what the gut produces.

[Gary O'Reilly]

These are the GLP1 injections that everybody sees on TV now. Right.

[Emeran Mayer]

So that, that gives you that sensation. But you know, in a, in a GLP one.

[Chuck Nice]

Excuse me, got a pharmacist sitting here among us.

We can't help it. It's on every TV channel.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That's right. And by the way, how do you think I lost £20?

[Chuck Nice]

So of course you're. I didn't know this. So this chemical that we see advertised 100 times a day is that molecule. But heightened to create this sensation that really your body should have been producing all along.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, it does a lot of other things. We don't know many of them because now all of a sudden it seems to be effective in substance use disorders.

[Gary O'Reilly]

People who take it find that they're urged to drink. So people who have an alcohol abuse problem, they stop abusing alcohol. They're like, yeah, I just didn't want to drink or, you know, so.

[Emeran Mayer]

And you know, it's kind of ironic. When I first came to LA as a research student, I studied that, that, that hormone, you know, and also it's sibling called gip, that that there's another medication that has that. And at the time we didn't know. We were just excited to find all these substances in the gut, but nobody had a clue what they do. It took really literally 35 years or 40 years.

[Chuck Nice]

Race the rudders, race the sails. Raise the sails.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

[Emeran Mayer]

Over.

[Chuck Nice]

Roger, wait, Is that an enterprise sales solution?

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

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[Paige Desorbo]

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[Chuck Nice]

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[Gary O'Reilly]

Costella, and I'm a proud supporter of StarTalk on Patreon.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

This is StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

[Chuck Nice]

How was this received when you emerged with this idea that your brain and your gut are connected in ways no one understood previously? Because as I understand medical school, you study the brain. You study the brain, you study the gut. You study the gut and there's a siloing of the body where we are just bits and pieces assembled into one thing.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Absolutely.

[Chuck Nice]

And the idea that there's a connection will require that somebody in that mix has interest in more than one aspect of the human physiology.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah. And I would say, you know, I've had a long standing interest in college in psychology and, you know, read all the stuff, Jungian stuff. And so I came into medical school already with this background in, you know, in brain science.

[Chuck Nice]

With the perspective.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, with the perspective. And I would actually say that the main reason I ended up in medical school, I thought I was going to go into psychiatry because. But then spending a month in a psychiatry rotation convinced me this is not what I want to do.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Those people are crazy. Okay, never mind.

[Emeran Mayer]

Okay, I might do it today. I might do it today. Because psychiatry has moved on a lot.

[Gary O'Reilly]

It really has.

[Emeran Mayer]

But I had a very open minded, a very charismatic mentor who really supported me in this from the beginning. So he was interested in isolating all these molecules like the TLP one, not necessarily on the brain. And I said, can we combine this with the brain? And he was very open minded, unusual. But most of my colleagues either ignored it, didn't find that interesting, or then there were like, in the IBS field, for example, there were like really entrenched interests of people that say IBS is a gut disorder, forget about the brain, you know, and.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Which is so counterintuitive from the fact that when we're all kids, we learn that the hip bone is connected to.

[Chuck Nice]

It's as simple as that all the.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Bones are connected to. Like you would think that it would be just, you know, the gut bone.

[Chuck Nice]

Connected to the brain bone.

[Gary O'Reilly]

It would make perfect sense. Right. It's the first thing we learn when.

[Chuck Nice]

We learn anatomy day one.

[Emeran Mayer]

So. But, but it goes further than that. I think, you know, western medicine, very successful obviously in many aspects. But it is based on a reductionistic view of the body. Not an interconnected, not a systems biological. And it's gradually changing from the. A couple of developments. Like there's an entity now called functional medicine. Non scientific entity but also in science. There's more and more scientists that think.

[Gary O'Reilly]

In systems interconnect connectivity between the systems.

[Emeran Mayer]

So it will take another 10 years, I think and then it will, it will change.

[Chuck Nice]

I mean they'll catch up with you.

How about that? You spoke about GLP1, but you've got cortisol and serotonin.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yes.

[Chuck Nice]

The stress.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yes.

[Chuck Nice]

I suppose we love eating. We have an experience when we eat certain foods that maybe you'll tell me yes or no with serotonin being released or dopamine. And then like I say, you're diving into the fridge because you're under stress and you're going for the sugars or the fats or whatever it is. I mean, how long did it take us to work all of that out?

And we've got this image of the person who just broke up.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

With their, their loved one watching a sad movie, crying.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

What's up with that?

Mess up sad movies do the gut.

Likes Haagen Dazs ice cream or any other ice cream.

[Emeran Mayer]

So there's some very smart people who've worked in this area. So surprisingly, it was never really identified as the brain gut connection. You know, they always talked about appetite and stress and substance use disorders, but it never really became sort of an essential part of. But that's really how it started. You know, we knew these things for quite some time. Very good scientific studies support it. But it's not really become a specialty, you know, because of this dominant paradigm, I think.

[Chuck Nice]

So going back to Chuck's insight into anatomy, that the knee bone is connected.

To several other things connected to the brain bone.

So how is the gut connected? A to the autonomic system and then the vagus nerve spelled with an A not an e. And what does the vagus nerve do? Because we've heard about it. I couldn't tell you actually where it is in the body.

[Gary O'Reilly]

It's right here.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, the vagus nerve.

[Emeran Mayer]

Okay.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Above your clavicle. Where Your neck is. And it runs down.

[Chuck Nice]

Why are you telling me this and not the good doctor?

[Gary O'Reilly]

All right, doc, tell us, where's the vagus nerve?

[Chuck Nice]

Well, you said.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Exactly.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Emeran Mayer]

So the vagus nerve, first of all, it's a bi directional pathway. It's like a bi directional freeway. Most of the traffic goes from the gut to the brain to the brainstem and then to higher emotional centers. And 10% goes the other way. So for example, to simulate the acid production in your stomach. That's a vagal phenomenon. That's why people used to do cut the vagus nerve for ulcer disease. This was a dominant. Wow. Which is amazing when you think about. This is only like 30 years ago that we have absolutely no understanding.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Cutting off your foot because you have an ingrown toenail.

[Emeran Mayer]

Exactly. That's insane.

[Chuck Nice]

Wait, so where on your body is the vagus nerve?

[Emeran Mayer]

It goes down from your brain stem.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay.

[Emeran Mayer]

Down your neck, just like that.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Sounds like just what Chuck. Nice.

[Chuck Nice]

Did. Did chuck say that 90 seconds ago?

Just so as you know.

Okay.

[Emeran Mayer]

But what's important is to realize. So the vagus nerve has branches to all your organs. It monitors every organ function. 7, 24 7. The ones to the gut have received a lot of attention because we were always wondering why is 90% of the traffic going from the gut to the brain? There's not that much happening that the brain needs to know. So now we know there's all these receptors on the vagus nerve for serotonin, for these, for glp, one for gip. So disproportionate, what we call afferent or sensory signal to the brain is related to this complexity that goes on in the gut and the signals it gets from the microbes.

[Chuck Nice]

It's a processing hub.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

So I'm still confused. How does any of that relate to your immune system?

[Emeran Mayer]

So the immune system, I told you, more than 70% is located in the gut, sandwiched between the layers. 7, 070.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Wow.

[Emeran Mayer]

Sandwiched between the layers of the gut. And very close communication to the microbes in the gut. Microns away. You know, so how nature could engineer something like that. There's a potentially deadly influence of microns.

[Chuck Nice]

A micron is a millionth of an inch. Yeah, I mean a millionth of a. Of a meter, I guess.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah. Of a meter, Right.

[Chuck Nice]

So that would be a thousandth of a millimeter.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

Would be a micron. Yeah, yeah.

[Emeran Mayer]

So the immune system is very close to the Vegas. Some of these sensor nerves go into the. Into this immune system in the Gut. And they pick up signals that. That the immune system produces, like cytokines, for example, best studied. And that has all kinds of effects on your behavior. You know, like cytokines, fatigue, chronic pain, inflammation. So.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh yeah, so I gotta come at. So pause then. What is the urge that people have to. What do you do when they clean out the colon?

[Gary O'Reilly]

A cleanse.

[Chuck Nice]

Cleanse. There's this urge to get it all out.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, I'm gonna. I can answer that for a doctor and.

[Chuck Nice]

Or people prepping for a colonoscopy, they're cleaning everything out. So all these microbes that set up shop to communicate with the brain, they just flow out your body just for the benefit of one of your colleagues to look up your butt? And so are we destroying this hard earned microbiome every time we get ready? Oh, Chuck had an answer. What's your answer, Dr. Chuck?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay, so here's my answer for the cleanse. That's bullshit. So that's the first.

[Chuck Nice]

That's human shit.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But yeah, no, no, I'm saying the actual cleanse itself. I mean, I know it's supposed to get rid of your stuff.

[Chuck Nice]

That was a joke.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Chuck Nice]

Wasn't that a good joke?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, I thought you were saying it like. Okay, never mind.

[Chuck Nice]

You said it's bullshit.

[Gary O'Reilly]

No, you said human. You said no, it's human shit. Yeah, see, we missed the no, because I would have laughed at that because that's funny. Excuse me, I'm sorry I missed the. No, but the colonoscopy, that's so that they can look at your intestinal lining. And the good stuff, that's. That you need is in the walls of your intestinal lining. So cleaning that out so they can look at it, you're not getting rid of.

[Emeran Mayer]

So, okay, yeah, so two answers from my side. The first one, I would contradict what you said.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, you think it's real?

[Emeran Mayer]

So. Well, you know, ayurvedic medicine for thousands of years has propagated these colonic cleanses.

[Gary O'Reilly]

All right, so what is that? What is the benefit? Let's look. Because everything that I read says that the benefits are negligible at the best. Okay.

[Chuck Nice]

Unless that would be health benefits. But suppose you just feel better. Doesn't that count?

[Gary O'Reilly]

I mean, doesn't that keep.

[Chuck Nice]

We talking about how you feel better?

[Gary O'Reilly]

When I punch a puppy, does that make it. What? I'm sorry, did I say that out loud? Okay, yes. Anyway, tell me, tell me why it's good before I get arrested.

[Emeran Mayer]

So. So for a long time, this has been dominated or driven or motivated by this concept of cleansing. So humans are obsessed with cleansing. You know, they spend a lot of money on cleansing. So not just cleansing the colon, but a cleansing diet.

[Chuck Nice]

And in not 19th century Europe, but in modern times, yes, cleansing.

[Emeran Mayer]

But it's become very popular again.

[Chuck Nice]

Talk about your ancestors.

I know I need a dig. I feel.

Take a bath once a year and only if necessary.

Yeah, but it's our birthday.

You gotta celebrate.

[Emeran Mayer]

So with microbiome science, there's a certain potential explanation why people have been doing this over thousands of years.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Why?

[Emeran Mayer]

Well, because it reestablishes a balance within, you know, within your colonic microbiome.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Okay.

[Emeran Mayer]

Has not been studied scientifically, but it certainly.

[Gary O'Reilly]

You're saying it's feasible though. So even though it's not, even though we don't have empirical, scientific, peer reviewed studies, it's a feasible concept that this could be the case.

[Emeran Mayer]

It is conceivable. And it's. So the blueprint for your microbiome doesn't disappear with that. So you cleanse out the population. The blueprint is there and the body can reconstruct the.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay, so it's a jump start.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, jump start.

[Chuck Nice]

All right, fine.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I've changed my mind on this.

[Chuck Nice]

Stripping off a layer of paint and then just. It re evolves itself to bring a new layer of paint. It's nice and shiny. So if our microbes are not important in our gut over evolution, we'd have got rid of them. It's like sleep. We are never more vulnerable than when we're asleep. Right. Yet we've not evolved to do without sleep. Why haven't we evolved to do without microbes in our gut?

What?

How, how come this? Because they're the OGs. They're the original life forms on this planet.

[Emeran Mayer]

They've been here for four billion years. You know, it's three and a half billion.

[Chuck Nice]

Can't get more OG than that, that's for sure.

[Emeran Mayer]

Three and a half billion beef.

[Chuck Nice]

Original gut.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Nicely made.

[Chuck Nice]

Thank you.

[Emeran Mayer]

But it's been the most successful evolutionary development because every organism today, from the cockroach to the butterfly to humans, has a microbiome, a gut microbiome.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Whoa.

[Emeran Mayer]

There's not a complex.

[Chuck Nice]

So there's a number I calculated and it just freaks people out that if you go to your large intestine and take one centimeter, slice through it.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Just one centimeter.

[Chuck Nice]

One centimeter. That's four tenths of an inch. Right. For those who. For America.

[Gary O'Reilly]

For Americans. America. That's right. Don't bring any of that metric crap over here. Talking about Mid America, boy, better talk to me in inches. Talking about millimeters, centimeters, that four tenths.

[Chuck Nice]

Of an inch lives and works more microbes than the total number of humans who have ever been born.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Wow.

[Chuck Nice]

So that we think that we're in charge, but we're just a darkened anaerobic vessel of fecal matter. For microbes, we're an uber ride.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That's what we are. We're an uber ride for microscopic organisms.

[Chuck Nice]

Microbes.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah. I read something recently in a book by one of my favorite scientific authors, Antonio Damasio, on this comparison. The early life forms, you know, which had a lot of intelligence, I mean, these microbes on the planet must have a phenomenal amount of intelligence collected over three and a half billion years.

[Chuck Nice]

But they couldn't do long division, so.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yes, but I mean, they don't have a mind. And obviously they can live in homeostasis with each other and with the world. Their main benefit is that they now can connect to our brains and can influence a much a conscious entity.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But what I mean, so they do have a mind.

[Chuck Nice]

So if we've got the original gut microbes, the OGs as we now like to refer to them, three and a half billion years, they've invented their own language, they've had to have their own Alphabet of sorts. So how are they communicating with us from their little hidey hole in the gut?

[Emeran Mayer]

You know, they have millions of genes compared to our, you know, meek number of ten thousands. In these genes is stored all this information how to build these molecules, how to use them. So their language is basically stored in their genome.

[Chuck Nice]

So their own history of three and yeah, no, I was about to swear before I got to the b.

Billions and billions. Okay.

[Emeran Mayer]

So then when they settled, the first microbes settled in just floating tubes of the first marine animals. They interacted with these floating tubes and there's something called lateral gene transfer that they transferred some of these genes that they had about their language into these animals. And you know, fast forward there was the first version of the so called little brain of the gut or the enteric nervous system. And then with animals developing heads, becoming polar organisms, some of the same information about language was transferred to the brain.

[Chuck Nice]

What is a polar organism having a.

[Emeran Mayer]

Head and the opposite end, whatever that is. Okay, okay, yeah. So our language, our ability to think comes, uses the same buildings blocks as the microbes developed over billions of years. I mean, that to me is one of the more fascinating ideas.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Incredibly fascinating.

[Chuck Nice]

So seeing as how we have the gut brain connection. We're seeing as how microbes have their way of communicating with us. Is this the superhighway that is used for psychedelics? Because we are ingesting and yet everything's going off up here in the brain, but not so much down in the gut. So is there sort of exploration?

[Emeran Mayer]

There are a lot of things going on in the gut that we don't know yet. Like serotonin plays a big role, you know, with the psychedelic experiences activating a particular serotonin receptor, the 5H2A receptor, which is in the brain. So these psychedelic experiences seem to, many of them seem to be related to that receptor in the brain. Now the same receptor is also in the gut and on microbes. And we don't know what effect this actually has, but one is also.

[Chuck Nice]

And it can't be an accident, right?

[Emeran Mayer]

It's not an accident.

[Chuck Nice]

It's a co. Evolutionary.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

Thing.

Right, okay, so is the, is the mind desperate to try and expand and that's why it's so active to find something like these psychedelics and then just whiz them up to the brain?

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, I mean, humans have pro used psychedelics for a long, long, long time. Long time. And based on their experiences, initially by accident that they ingested a mushroom, all of a sudden sort of world.

[Chuck Nice]

Is that the sort of. When you talk about an evolution, just by accident eating a mushroom, is that sort of the beginning of a stone date?

That's a phrase.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

[Gary O'Reilly]

What is the stoned ape? I mean, I've been to the zoo, but I've never seen them, you know, an ape. I would just love to sit there and watch a chimpanzee tripping his balls off. I would love that. But I haven't had the pleasure of seeing it.

[Chuck Nice]

Well, in, out in the wild, I'm guessing they'll stumble across a mushroom, be curious and eat it and go, whoa.

So isn't the basis of where Gary's coming from, why do we have receptors for psychedelics at all? Unless it was the purview of the microbiome that delighted in it?

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I can't really answer it. I can only say partially based on personal experience. I guess I can say this even though it's, you know, it's not. Not recommending for people.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I am. I'm recommending for you to do it. All right. The good doctor here can't. I'm letting you know, everybody should do psychedelics.

[Emeran Mayer]

I mean, I can't do it. For legal, medical, legal reasons, sue me.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Please, but do it.

[Emeran Mayer]

But the experience, you know, that you have, and everybody says it's a universal human experience. It's not that one person gets this realization of the interconnectedness of yourself with your environment, the planet. Like you get a totally different paradigm.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, yes.

[Chuck Nice]

So you Chuck, you.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, God, yes.

[Chuck Nice]

You missed a few shows a few while back because you, you.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I traveled to Costa Rica to do ayahuasca for an entire week.

[Chuck Nice]

Wow.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And I will tell you that it changed my entire life. It changed my perspective on everything.

[Chuck Nice]

Did you get funnier?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Not at all. And that. And you know what? While I was in my one of my. While I was in one of my trans. Meditative states, Mother Aya came to me and said, I can't help you with the funny, son. I'm so sorry.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay, so just to be clear, when you did this, it was a fully supervised.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, got you activity. You know, they are licensed, they're fully supervised, and they have medical staff on, on hand.

[Chuck Nice]

It wasn't somebody who sold you something on the street.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Nobody on your street, by the way. Now that I do not recommend, I say please find a professional and have somebody there to supervise, make sure that there's medical staff on hand. Do not go to somebody's house. Okay. And do not go to some dude with a ponytail who's just like, dude, I've been a shaman for like so long now, and I would love to turn you on to the universe. Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

But if he doesn't have a ponytail, it's okay.

[Emeran Mayer]

And it's. And it's not a party drug. No, it's not a party.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Gary O'Reilly]

If you're looking to get high, don't do it, because it's not that kind of high. Yeah.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah. So like one of my speculations is, I mean, again, partially based on self experience. So there's different phases to the psychedelic experience. There's the initial rush that you get with a lot of visual and auditory experiences, but then it has this long lasting effect. I mean, at least 24 hours that you notice it, if you pay attention to it, with your ability to communicate and to talk, that you've never talked like this before about yourself and your emotions and then even past that one experience. A lot of people say that one experience, just like you said, can have a life changing effect because from now on you're gonna look at the world differently.

[Chuck Nice]

So that's easy to understand. Knowing that it interferes with brain neurosynapsis. How does that connect back to the gut.

[Emeran Mayer]

Well, the slow effect, you know, I mean, I think that what happens in your brain initially is a fast response. It's being absorbed in the small intestine.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, because you ingest it.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, you ingest it.

[Chuck Nice]

It's got to get through your. So it only gets to your brain as the, as the microbiome allows it, right?

[Emeran Mayer]

True, but it's, it's the part that is not absorbed in your small intestine, which happens immediately after ingestion. It's the part that goes down to your colon. And then these longer lasting effects, I would not be surprised if they're mediated by microbial. You know, they add things to it. When they stimulate it with the 5 HTA2A receptor, they produce other molecules that then create this long term experience.

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[Chuck Nice]

All right. Given that there's this connection, there's so many other psychological features of human behavior. Some good, some bad, some failures of our psychological profile. Neurological diseases, this sort of thing. How much of that can we blame on our microbiome?

[Emeran Mayer]

Our current knowledge is pretty much based on what we call association studies or correlations. You take a big population of people that have a particular diagnosis and then you look at their gut microbiome and it's different.

[Chuck Nice]

You have to even know to do that as part of the study. Right.

[Emeran Mayer]

But it doesn't prove causality. That's the thing. So I personally think of, I'll give you a few examples. I think anxiety, in my opinion. I've studied this pretty intensely for the first part of my career. We know so many mechanisms in the brain that you know, and the effect of early life adversity that predispose you to have great anxiety. So we know so much about the brain mechanisms that some people try to propose. You know, it's your microbes that cause anxiety.

[Chuck Nice]

Has any of your research gone into diet relation to Alzheimer's development?

Yeah.

[Emeran Mayer]

So we're part of a big US European consortium on Alzheimer's disease funded by the nih. There's definitely pretty strong evidence that it's the nih. National Institutes, Institutes of Health.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Say goodbye to that.

[Emeran Mayer]

Thank God. Thank God we have it.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, thank God we have it. Now, what time is it? What time is it? Because let me tell you something.

[Chuck Nice]

Now you sound like flavor. Flavor.

[Emeran Mayer]

And I would say there's pretty solid evidence that again, what we call dysbiosis, or altered composition of the gut microbiome plays a role and there may be heterogeneity. You know, it's not. Alzheimer's is not one disease. Maybe different pathways, diet. And what we now, you know, it's become sort of the magic word. Systemic immune activation or systemic inflammation is clearly one of the main risk factors for not just Alzheimer's, but also all the other ones, like Parkinson's. But Alzheimer's is also. It's interesting. So anything preventive for any of these chronic diseases, you want to go to what's been referred to as an anti inflammatory diet, which basically that's an emergent.

[Chuck Nice]

Awareness of our health.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

Butyrate, anti inflammatory. The phenol.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

And butyrate is polyphenols and those sort of things.

[Emeran Mayer]

A large Mediterranean.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah.

[Emeran Mayer]

Once you have Alzheimer's, severe symptoms, there's evidence that a ketogenic diet, you know, which is not a good diet for the average person because it starves your microbes, but in that case it's beneficial. And there's one disease entity, refractory seizures, in young children, where a ketogenic diet is also.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Oh, my God.

[Chuck Nice]

Ketogenic is basically protein all the time.

[Emeran Mayer]

Fat and protein.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Fat and protein. Keeping your body in ketosis, a state of ketosis.

[Chuck Nice]

Right, right. Which means you don't have access to sugars. Correct.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Your body basically uses the fat.

[Chuck Nice]

And of course, presumably before we were agrarian, our ancestors, they ate dead animals. Right. Or berries, of course, if they could find them. But they were the caveman diet. Is this correct?

[Emeran Mayer]

Well, but, you know, going back to my personal experience on the.

[Chuck Nice]

As a caveman, you have to say.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That I was just hanging there. I was just hanging there.

[Emeran Mayer]

I didn't Know, living with the Yanomami on the Upper Orinoka River. I mean, so they're surrounded by animals, you know, by birds, by fish, the big mammals. They only eat a very small amount of animal products. They mainly eat tubers and berries and plant based stuff. That's why they have the healthy microbiome.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That's why they have the healthy microbiome.

[Emeran Mayer]

And that has been studied all the way to a colleague of mine at ucla, Elaine Chow, all the way into the production of neurotransmitters of gaba, this inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain on a ketogenic diet. That's sort of like Valium, you know, it sort of tones down the nervous system.

[Chuck Nice]

How much of this is us really knowing? A lot of it. Or how much of this is us just beginning to understand? I know you've been doing this research for decades, but just how much more of this do we not know yet?

What can we look forward to?

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, I, I think we're just scratching on the surface. Oh, really? Yeah, I think. Well, I was just thinking about these millions of, of genes that the microbes have. We, we only know why do they.

[Chuck Nice]

Have more genes than we do? That ain't right.

Yeah, been around a little bit longer.

Or, or is it the collection of genes represented in the diversity of microbes that you're referring to as millions of genes? Okay, so if someone prepping for a colonoscopy, they just got rid of the entire population of microbes. So why other than the value of the exam to prevent colon cancer. How do you get back your microbiome if it's all in the toilet?

[Emeran Mayer]

It comes back fairly quickly. You know, I would say.

[Chuck Nice]

Where's the recipe?

[Emeran Mayer]

Oh, so the blueprints to reassemble it is in your.

[Chuck Nice]

Why don't. I'm asking the medical doctor here.

Well, I'm telling you.

Did I ask the two of you?

No, but you got it anyway.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, so you need to know.

[Chuck Nice]

So, okay, so you're saying we are chemically equipped to reproduce the microbiome that is suitable for us.

[Emeran Mayer]

So there's a form of colitis, or a very serious form after antibiotics where you basically just destroy your microbiome.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, because the antibiotics while it's getting rid of whatever was your condition.

[Emeran Mayer]

Watch it out.

[Chuck Nice]

It's biotics.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Killing everything.

[Chuck Nice]

Killing everything.

[Emeran Mayer]

So it's called C. Difficile colitis. That's the name. So one therapy that is very effective is a fecal microbial transplant. It's the only disease where that works.

[Chuck Nice]

A poop transplant.

[Gary O'Reilly]

It's a poop transplant.

[Chuck Nice]

So whose poop are you taking?

Oh, you had to ask.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I'll tell you this, not dog poop.

[Emeran Mayer]

So there's now people have identified donors that are free of any disease, any families drift disease. So. And that have a diverse healthy microbiome. So these are the donors. So one of the most effective therapies is to get one of these transplants, these poop transplants. And so for a while, then the person who got this transplant has the microbial composition of the donor. Yes, because he or she himself didn't have it. But if you look at this like a few weeks later, a few months later, the person's own microbiome is being reassembled. And the reason is possible because the microbes are not just floating inside the lumen, the inside of the gut, but they also inhabit the mucosal lining. And that's probably where the information is stored of the blueprints. And that's exactly what it comes back.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I did say that earlier, but that's okay. You know, I don't need to be right, I just need to be funny. But if you're right and funny, I guess right.

[Chuck Nice]

So what about advertisements for gut ailments? And every time I see them, I say, do I have that or could that happen to me? And one of them shows up a lot is IBS or irritable bowel syndrome. Do we know the cause of that? And can gut health fix that?

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah. So yeah, this is something that myself and my group have studied for, you know, like I would say four decades.

[Chuck Nice]

You're failing badly because people still have it. Get back to work. What are you doing here?

[Emeran Mayer]

Well, fortunately, finally, after 30 years of writing articles and review articles on it, it's basically called a disorder of altered gut brain interactions.

[Chuck Nice]

They did bring the brain in.

[Emeran Mayer]

How about the brain?

[Gary O'Reilly]

Finally?

[Emeran Mayer]

And the most effective therapies are brain targeted therapies, meaning simple relaxation techniques, mindfulness based stress reduction, gut directed hypnosis, cognitive behavioral therapy. They're better, more effective than any of these medications.

[Chuck Nice]

Getting all new agey on this. So how was this received by quote, western medicine. Yeah. To have these, a lot of resistance.

[Emeran Mayer]

And also the pharmaceutical industry, of course.

[Gary O'Reilly]

You need a pill. They need a pill.

[Emeran Mayer]

They need a pill.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, you can't meditate a pill.

[Chuck Nice]

I mean, we're getting inundated with supplements. We're getting inundated with, with probiotics.

Yeah, probiotics too. There's all these, you know, eat this, yogurt, because it's got the bacillus, the active microbes. Do we really need that?

[Emeran Mayer]

So the official organization of gastroenterology has published, you know, they always publish these statements, these expert statements, and they said there's not good enough scientific evidence to actually recommend probiotics in general as a treatment for ibs. However, there are patients, you know, who benefit. And there's also. There's different types of probiotics if now go on the Internet, you know.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah, yeah, it's a whole industry.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, it's a whole industry. And like, when I wrote my book, somebody came to me who was a retired Hewlett Packard engineer who said, you want to be my partner? I want to start a probiotic company. So we just go to these big warehouses and get our organisms and then we package them and then, you know, market them. So that's a lot of people have.

[Chuck Nice]

And you said no, and he's a billionaire now, is that what you're saying?

[Emeran Mayer]

I have not seen him since.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay. All right. So there's a lot on the table right now, and we're inundated by ads that are telling us one thing or another about medicines that are being put forth. What would you say is a best practice going forward? Not that you're prescribing for an audience that is surely diverse, but what kind of things should we be aware of as we put food in our pie hole?

[Gary O'Reilly]

I love that.

[Chuck Nice]

Just a glimpse on your diet.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah, that's.

[Chuck Nice]

Don't judge me because I like pie.

[Emeran Mayer]

So, first of all, I would say it's not just the food. You know, it's the lifestyle. The food is a big part of the lifestyle. Same with the Mediterranean diet. I no longer call it the Mediterranean diet, but the Mediterranean lifestyle. If you go to Italy in summer, you will experience that. The social interactions and the. Which is a big part of it. You know, like all the studies being.

[Chuck Nice]

Around people go back further than that to the soil, where our plants come from, and that the animals eat that. Then it comes down the food chain to us.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah. So, like, the awareness of why your gut health may not be optimal is key to start out with. Because then you realize it's not just. It's not just what you eat, but where it's grown and how it's grown, and how do you eat it, in which context?

[Chuck Nice]

Well, that's easy to say, but suppose I don't care about any of that and I do poop regularly. What should I be worried about? And I don't have mood swings. I don't have ibs, so does that make me rare on this spectrum of gut biome issues?

[Emeran Mayer]

It seems right now, you know, all of a sudden, since this has become acceptable as a topic for dinner parties. Yes. Which was not the case even 10 years ago. It seems like everybody now has like 40 or 60% of the population has some kind of a poor gut health. I'm not sure if that's true or not. But.

[Chuck Nice]

Wait, but the people you studied, you said they have the best gut health in the world. What is it about them that manifest this fact? Do they live longer? Did they never have diarrhea or constipation? What is the metric for you to.

[Emeran Mayer]

Arrive at that conclusion, you know, for these people?

[Chuck Nice]

Because we should just do what they do.

[Emeran Mayer]

If that's what you're saying, if you lived with them, you would realize we can't go back. You know, there's no. There's no way. There's no way.

[Chuck Nice]

There's no streaming.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I'm not eating leaves. And grubs.

[Chuck Nice]

And grubs. Yeah, Tasty grubs. Tasty.

[Emeran Mayer]

But what we know about them is, you know, so they have an interesting thing. They. They have a lot of little wars, and the wars are invading another village to get women from other villages. And they do this to prevent inbreeding, you know, so this is part of their culture that they always.

[Gary O'Reilly]

They could just have a dance, you know, just. Hey, everybody.

[Chuck Nice]

They're social.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah. Just come on over here. We're gonna have a little dance. Y'all meet one another, you know, Anyway, so. Sorry.

[Emeran Mayer]

So a lot of them die early because they're bitten by a snake or eaten by a crocodile or a lot.

[Chuck Nice]

Of good the healthy gut biome did for them.

[Emeran Mayer]

But. But if they don't have.

[Gary O'Reilly]

But that crocodile has the healthiest gut of all the crocodiles.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yes.

[Chuck Nice]

And that's why crocodiles smile.

[Emeran Mayer]

But here comes the interesting part. If they don't die early from one of these accidents, they live into their 80s without any medication.

[Gary O'Reilly]

With no medication.

[Emeran Mayer]

No medication and no. And no medical system.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And no medical system. That is impressive.

[Chuck Nice]

And no medical insurance or anything.

[Gary O'Reilly]

I don't need it. Well, we don't have that here either. So let's be honest. This is America. We do not have health care. All right? It's an illusion. People, don't get mad at me. Vote differently. Okay.

[Chuck Nice]

All right, so you've spoken of a mixture of traditional western medicine and lifestyle, diet, even sort of Eastern philosophies and ways of living. Is there a way to sift the fact from the fiction. For someone who's just exposed to all these ads and other YouTube videos seeking.

Guidance and not being inundated with all of this misinformation.

Thank you.

[Emeran Mayer]

Very difficult for the average person. Very difficult.

[Chuck Nice]

Especially in today's media climate.

[Emeran Mayer]

And it's going to get worse, you know, for political reasons, I think.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Listen, don't blame me. I'm very healthy. I have a doctor who said that I have the best health that anybody could ever be. You know it and I know it. So healthy. It's what I am.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah. One of my missions at this stage of my career is really to provide that answer for people and the trust and the transparency. I think there always has to be, there always has to be evidence supported. And the evidence could come from scientific studies, high quality, not, you know, five mice, and then claim that this is. But it also can come from traditional success. If I have this demographics criteria, somebody is stuck around for five or six thousand years. There's got to be something to it, you know, you cannot just dismiss it. Turmeric is a good example.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That's so true.

[Chuck Nice]

Yeah.

[Emeran Mayer]

Anti inflammatory. There's now scientific studies. Ginseng is another. So there's. There's several things that I think you can. But then there's obviously in the middle of all of this is an enormous number of stuff that's placebo. And placebo is not a bad thing. If people feel better and they want.

[Chuck Nice]

To spend the money, people poo, poo. I shouldn't use that phrase. Yeah. People denigrate placebos. But if it works, we should study placebos.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah. And so there's a lot of, you know, high, high quality research on the, on the brain's mechanism to create a cell brain connection.

[Chuck Nice]

The placebo. If your brain perceives that it's working.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah. So the placebo is a evidence based therapy that the body does itself. Right. It's the enemy of the pharmaceutical industry, obviously. That's why it's bad mouse. It's, it's a wonderful thing if, if you're a really good doctor and healer, you utilize the placebo response extensively.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Interesting, isn't that. That's pretty wild, man.

[Emeran Mayer]

Yeah.

[Chuck Nice]

So, Doctor, what, what brings you to New York City? It wasn't just to do this show with us.

[Emeran Mayer]

So I have an invitation to this integrative health symposium that's going on tomorrow into Saturday. And I have a couple of one panel on IBS and one talk about increased stress responsiveness of people.

[Chuck Nice]

Okay. Especially stress is a buzzword. A killer of late. Yeah, we're all stressed.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Well, cortisol and stress very inexorably linked, so.

[Chuck Nice]

Well, welcome to the town. Yeah, and thanks for making some time in your schedule.

[Gary O'Reilly]

And speaking of gut, biome, don't eat any dirty dogs, okay?

[Emeran Mayer]

Hot dogs.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, man.

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, no, that. No, you need that.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, you know, you need that. You gotta live here. See the people who eat it every day?

[Chuck Nice]

Oh, they're immune.

[Gary O'Reilly]

You can't be. Not from here. And do it right, it'll kill you. Okay.

[Chuck Nice]

It'll kill you.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Yeah, we built up a resistance.

[Chuck Nice]

We'll kill you within the hour. Right, but you go to the one with the dirtiest fingernails.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That's what you do. That's it.

[Chuck Nice]

That's the best one.

[Gary O'Reilly]

That's the guy.

[Chuck Nice]

Look at me like that.

[Emeran Mayer]

Thanks, Neil. And team, it was a pleasure to be here.

[Chuck Nice]

Pleasure was us.

[Emeran Mayer]

You guys are an amazing team. I've never done a lot of podcasts, but not like this.

[Chuck Nice]

There's not too many out like this.

Dr. Amaran Mayer with a 2016 book, Mind and Gut Connection, followed six years later by Mind and Gut.

[Emeran Mayer]

Immune.

[Chuck Nice]

Immune Connection.

[Gary O'Reilly]

Nice.

[Chuck Nice]

All right. It's all there and more. Gary, thanks for being here.

Pleasure.

All right, Chuck.

[Gary O'Reilly]

My stomach hurts. Stop.

[Chuck Nice]

Well, go talk to your gut. See what happens. I. My gut is feeling just fine.

Good to know.

Thank you. So this has been Star Talk special edition. Neil Degrasse Tyson here, as always, bidding you to keep looking up.

[Gary O'Reilly]

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