StarTalk Radio – The Science of Godzilla, Zombies & Other Monsters

Host: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Guest: Charles Liu (astrophysicist & CUNY professor)
Comedian Sidekick: Matt Kirshen
Date: October 21, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the fascinating intersection of science and pop culture through the lens of monsters—ranging from Godzilla and King Kong to vampires and zombies. Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, science communicator Charles Liu, and comedian Matt Kirshen dig into the physics, biology, and cultural significance behind famous movie monsters, asking what these creatures reveal about our scientific knowledge, our collective fears, and, ultimately, ourselves.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why We Imagine Monsters

Timestamps: [04:23]–[06:02]

• Monsters embody the unknown and the fearful; throughout history, humans have personified things they didn't understand as "monsters."
• Many early legends about monsters stemmed from misunderstood phenomena or animal encounters (e.g. triceratops fossils thought to be dragons).
• Charles Liu: "Human nature makes us think about monsters because when we have something that's unknown and we fear it, we want to explain it." [05:00]

2. Godzilla: Science, History, and Culture

Timestamps: [06:04]–[19:36]

• Godzilla as the Ultimate Monster: It’s the longest-running movie franchise, starting in 1954.
• Cultural Differences: In Japan, monsters (kaiju) aren't always villains; they're non-human, sometimes noble or helpful.
  • Asian vs. European Dragons: Asian dragons are playful and noble (helping rabbits cross rivers); European dragons are menacing. [09:14]
• Godzilla’s Origins: Created in Japanese culture as a metaphor for atomic radiation and destruction after the atomic bombings.
  • Neil deGrasse Tyson: "Japan is the only country against whom atomic weapons have been used... that's why [Godzilla] became part of their storytelling." [14:40]
• Godzilla’s atomic breath—a blend of biology and science fiction—has been "retconned" many times.

3. Science vs. Fiction: Can Monsters Exist?

Timestamps: [22:46]–[25:44]

• The Physics Problem: Scaling up animals (e.g., Godzilla’s size) isn’t biologically plausible.
  • Charles Liu: "If Godzilla [is] 400ft tall... all known bone would shatter. He would just be a blob of protoplasmic stuff because he couldn't support himself." [24:26]

4. Monster Evolution: Sympathy for the Beast

Timestamps: [25:44]–[34:08]

• Sympathetic Monsters: King Kong and Frankenstein’s monster are emblematic—creatures misunderstood until mankind intervenes.
  • Charles Liu: "King Kong was benign on Skull Island... only then did he become bad and harmed people." [25:58]
• Frankenstein: The birth of science fiction, involving electricity as a "life force," derived from contemporary experiments (e.g., Galvani’s frog leg).

5. Undead and Zombies: Why They Haunt Us

Timestamps: [34:13]–[39:12]

• The undead fascinate us due to our anxiety about death and the unknown.
• Modern iterations (The Walking Dead, The Last of Us) use zombies to reflect cultural fears—pandemics, environmental collapse.
• Charles Liu: "Things that are not alive fascinate us because we are alive and we don't understand them." [35:01]
• Zombie physics: Classic zombies couldn't "run"—contradicts both science and old horror tropes.

6. Science Fiction as Cultural Mirror

Timestamps: [39:12]–[53:32]

• Sci-fi and horror use monsters to reflect anxieties of the era:
  • "The Last of Us" links global warming to a fungal pandemic (cordyceps evolving to survive in humans) [39:56].
  • "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" leverages the “uncanny valley” phenomenon: fear of things almost human but not quite.
• The ultimate lesson: Often, humans themselves become the monsters.
  • Neil deGrasse Tyson (on “Monsters Are Due on Maple Street”): "We are the monsters." [48:31]
  • Charles Liu: "Once we become familiar with monsters, they're not so evil anymore... They become friendly, they glisten, they're handsome.” [49:14]
• Carl Sagan’s “Demon-Haunted World” and the parable of the dragon in his garage: monsters (or claims) that can’t be tested are indistinguishable from no monster at all. [50:51]

7. Physics Monsters?

Timestamps: [52:40]–[53:41]

• Few monsters in fiction are based on pure physics (as opposed to biology).
• Black holes were once considered “physics monsters,” but are now understood and “defanged.”

8. Monsters Teach Us About Ourselves

Timestamps: [54:53]–[56:33]

• Monster stories encourage us to reflect on human nature, embrace curiosity, and face our fears with knowledge and understanding.
• Neil deGrasse Tyson: "If all you do is tell stories about humans interacting with humans, it's going to miss an important dimension of how we might behave on the edges of ourselves. And a monster will take you there." [55:06]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Charles Liu: "The physics of monsters... gosh, that topic has no end." [04:23]
• Neil deGrasse Tyson: "The monster will teach us about ourselves. And that is a cosmic perspective." [55:53]
• Charles Liu: "The fungus is not evil, the fungus is just a fungus...it's trying to make more fungi. It's a fungus among us." [41:49]
• On Godzilla's legacy: "What did we create? Cities. ...They're city killers. Humans are collateral damage." (Neil deGrasse Tyson) [15:40]
• On scaling monsters: "If I'm 10 times taller and wider and thicker, then I'm a thousand times more massive... my bones have to be 10 times stronger to support my weight." (Charles Liu) [24:05]
• On The Walking Dead: "The moment you died, you became a zombie. So what's the point of even trying to stay alive when you know you're gonna become a zombie anyway?" (Charles Liu) [36:59]
• On humans as monsters: "The thing that makes them bad is wheat—is us... This is the commentary about monsters." (Charles Liu) [48:34]

Memorable & Humorous Moments

• Neil and Charles debate which monster is their favorite, with both nerding out over obscure kaiju (e.g., Rodan, Gamera, Mothra) [16:12–18:26].
• Extended riffing on why New York's subway system could be perceived as a monster by children (and, let’s face it, many adults) [06:45–07:29].
• Jokes about vampire lore and whether Sesame Street’s The Count is "scary enough" to be considered a monster [11:00–12:42].
• Ongoing geek one-upmanship between Neil and Charles, culminating in the “Hilbert’s Hotel of geeky” comparison [54:48].

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Why We Invent Monsters: [04:23]
• Godzilla and Cultural Meaning: [06:04], [14:40]
• Monster Physics (Scaling Laws): [22:46], [23:49], [24:26]
• King Kong & Frankenstein: [25:44], [29:00]
• Zombies & the Undead: [34:13], [36:27]
• Fungus Zombies – The Last of Us: [39:56], [41:19]
• Uncanny Valley & Body Snatchers: [46:11]
• Monsters as Mirrors of Ourselves: [48:31], [54:53]

Final Reflection

The conversation concludes with the insight that monster stories, no matter how fantastical, are really about our relationship with the unknown—whether in science, the environment, or human nature. As science chips away at fear and mystery, monsters lose their edge… only for new ones to emerge, shaped by our evolving anxieties and knowledge.

"In the end, the monster will teach us about ourselves. And that is a cosmic perspective."
— Neil deGrasse Tyson [55:53]