The Truth About UAPs with Jon Kosloski

Summary

StarTalk Radio Episode Summary: "The Truth About UAPs with Jon Kosloski"

Podcast Information:

• Title: StarTalk Radio
• Host: Neil deGrasse Tyson
• Guest: John Kosloski, Director of the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO)
• Release Date: August 5, 2025
• Description: In this episode, astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson delves into the intriguing world of Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAPs) with John Kosloski, the director responsible for investigating these mysterious sightings. The discussion navigates through the complexities of UAP detection, data collection, and the scientific methodologies employed to unravel these unexplained occurrences.

---

1. Introduction to UAP Rebranding

Paul Mercurio [04:23]:
"Why were UFOs rebranded as UAP? The public made UFO synonymous with extraterrestrials, which complicates governmental investigations."

John Kosloski explains that the term UAP (Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena) was adopted to distance governmental agencies from the extraterrestrial assumptions commonly associated with UFOs. This rebranding ensures that investigations remain unbiased and open to various explanations beyond alien involvement.

---

2. Methods of UAP Detection

John Kosloski [07:09]:
"The most common detection is via human observation, but we're also leveraging cameras, radar, and various sensors to capture these phenomena."
[07:12]

Kosloski outlines the multifaceted approach to detecting UAPs, which includes:

• Human Eyeball Reports: Primary source of initial sightings.
• Camera Surveillance: Utilizing doorbell cams and other stationary cameras to capture visual evidence.
• Radar and Electromagnetic Sensors: Advanced instruments to detect physical objects and their movements.

---

3. Challenges in Data Collection and Classification

John Kosloski [11:21]:
"There's nothing inherently classified about the anomalous phenomenon. It's often the context of data collection that leads to classification."
[11:21]

The classification of UAP data hinges not on the phenomena themselves but on the sensitivity of the collection methods. For instance, high-fidelity sensors on military platforms may necessitate data classification to protect technological capabilities.

---

4. Public Involvement and Data Reliability

John Kosloski [14:17]:
"We're preparing to open up public reporting mechanisms to gather high-quality data from citizen scientists."
[14:17]

Kosloski emphasizes the importance of public participation in data collection. With the impending launch of a public reporting platform, individuals will be able to submit media and narratives. This crowdsourced data is crucial for expanding the dataset beyond governmental channels.

However, the reliability of such data poses challenges:

• Verification: Ensuring the authenticity of public submissions.
• Biases: Addressing geographical and confirmation biases that can skew data interpretations.

Guest Comedian [09:15]:
"How do you vet reports from the general public without turning into belief police?"
[09:15]

To mitigate these concerns, Kosloski explains that all reports are initially accepted as sincere data, which are then corroborated through multiple narratives and scientific analysis.

---

5. Technological Advancements and AI in Analysis

John Kosloski [15:12]:
"We're investing in automation, machine learning, and AI to triage and analyze the vast amount of incoming data."
[15:12]

The integration of artificial intelligence is pivotal for handling over 1,800 cases, with plans to enhance capabilities through:

• Natural Language Processing: To sift through narrative data effectively.
• Pattern Recognition: Identifying correlations and anomalies within the data.

However, Kosloski acknowledges the ongoing challenge of AI-generated fake data and emphasizes the need for robust safeguards to maintain data integrity.

---

6. Case Studies Illustrating UAP Investigations

Case 1: "Go Fast" Incident [42:19-43:48]

• Description: An F18 Super Hornet pilot encounters a fast-moving object near the surface of the water.
• Analysis: Detailed examination revealed motion parallax effects, indicating the object was likely at 13,000 ft, well above the plane's altitude of 25,000 ft. The phenomenon was consistent with natural objects like birds or balloons, rather than advanced technology.

Quote - John Kosloski [43:32]:
"We don't know what it is, but it's moving at wind speed, making it likely a balloon or similar object."
[43:32]

Case 2: Puerto Rico Object [48:01-50:56]

• Description: A Customs and Border Protection platform observes objects merging and dipping into water via midwave infrared cameras.
• Analysis: Thermal crossover effects made it appear as though objects were interacting with the water. Post-analysis suggested the objects were likely sky lanterns or balloons, launched during local celebrations.

Quote - John Kosloski [50:03]:
"We're not sure what it is, but the behavior aligns with balloons or sky lanterns subject to thermal dynamics."
[50:03]

---

7. Addressing Psychological Biases and Public Perception

Paul Mercurio [37:17]:
"Is that like a form of confirmation bias?"
[37:17]

The conversation touches upon how psychological factors, such as confirmation bias, influence public reporting and perception of UAPs. Kosloski acknowledges these biases and highlights efforts to educate the public to improve data quality and reduce misinterpretations.

Quote - John Kosloski [52:29]:
"Through transparency and educational materials, we're aiming to build trust and help the public distinguish between real anomalies and misidentifications."
[52:29]

---

8. Transparency and Building Trust

John Kosloski [52:08]:
"Absolute transparency is our method to build trust with the public."
[52:08]

To foster trust, the AARO is committed to:

• Releasing Videos and Narratives: Sharing raw data and case resolutions with the public.
• Educational Outreach: Providing resources to help individuals understand common misidentifications and recognize genuine anomalies.

Kosloski underscores that transparency is essential for demystifying UAPs and encouraging credible reporting.

---

9. Future Prospects and Collaborative Efforts

John Kosloski [56:22]:
"The public reporting mechanism is launching soon, and we're aiming to collaborate internationally to enhance our investigative capabilities."
[56:22]

Looking ahead, AARO plans to:

• Expand Public Data Collection: Launch the reporting website by the end of the fiscal year.
• International Collaboration: Work with other countries to aggregate global UAP data.
• Scientific Publications: Introduce a scientific journal in Fiscal Year 26 to disseminate findings and foster academic collaboration.

Guest Comedian [56:53]:
"Maybe you should name your journal through our community!"
[56:53]

While humor interjects, the intent is clear: fostering a collaborative environment between governmental agencies, scientists, and the public.

---

10. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

John Kosloski [57:12]:
"We're committed to uncovering the truths behind these phenomena through rigorous scientific methods and fostering public engagement."
[57:12]

In wrapping up, Kosloski reiterates the importance of continuous data collection, scientific analysis, and public trust in the quest to understand UAPs. The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to stay informed and participate in the ongoing investigation.

---

Notable Quotes:

• John Kosloski [07:09]:
  "The most common detection is just the human eyeballs... but we're also leveraging cameras, radar, and various sensors to capture these phenomena."

• John Kosloski [15:12]:
  "We're investing in automation, machine learning, and AI to triage and analyze the vast amount of incoming data."

• John Kosloski [43:32]:
  "We don't know what it is, but it's moving at wind speed, making it likely a balloon or similar object."

• John Kosloski [52:29]:
  "Through transparency and educational materials, we're aiming to build trust and help the public distinguish between real anomalies and misidentifications."

• John Kosloski [57:12]:
  "We're committed to uncovering the truths behind these phenomena through rigorous scientific methods and fostering public engagement."

---

This episode of StarTalk provides an in-depth look into the governmental approach to UAP investigations, highlighting the balance between advanced technological methods and the complexities of public involvement. John Kosloski's insights shed light on the meticulous processes undertaken to ensure that UAP phenomena are studied objectively and transparently, aiming to demystify one of the most intriguing subjects in modern science.

Transcript

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

Te gustaria abrar otro idioma. If you don't know what I just said, it's because you're not immersing yourself in a new language using Rosetta Stone. By the way, it was would you like to speak another language? And you can do that by turning your downtime into meaningful progress with Rosetta Stone. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you naturally absorb and retain your new language whenever and wherever. You may have heard me say before that I use it because I'm in a bilingual family and my mother in law thinks I don't understand what she's saying when she speaks Spanish. But thanks to Rosetta stone, I do. StarTalk radio listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit Rosetta Stone.com StarTalk to get started today. That's Rosetta Stone.com StarTalk to get started today. No Hesperis Haora. That's don't wait, do it now. And don't wait. Do it now. You ever walked around a neighborhood and wish you could see inside somewhere that was available for rent? Well, let me just give you a tip. Don't climb up on the ledge and look in the window. People will call the cops. Well, maybe you've walked past a place for rent and you wished you could peek inside. Maybe even explore the layout. Envision the natural light streaming through the windows or plan where your vinyl record collection would go. Well, at apartments.com you can. With tools like their 3D virtual tours, you can see the exact unit you could be living in at all from the comfort of your couch. And if you end up wanting to see it in person, you can book a tour online without having to speak to a leasing rep. Really envision yourself in your new home with apartments.com the place to find a place.

[Paul Mercurio]

Get ready.

[Neil DeGrasse Tyson]

To leave the world behind. Because right now on Paramount plus Star Trek Strange New Worlds is back for an all new season of genre bending adventures. Romance, mystery, action, space zombies, special guests. This show is going where no show has gone before. One show. Infinite Adventures, the new season of Star Strange New Worlds, now streaming exclusively on Paramount.

[Paul Mercurio]

Paul.

[John Kosloski]

Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

Finally got to the bottom of the UAPs.

[Guest Comedian]

Yes. Which is we don't know anything, but it's so fascinating.

[Paul Mercurio]

So we know a couple of things.

[Guest Comedian]

We do.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah. So they go from UAP to iap. IAP identified Anomalous.

[Guest Comedian]

They're slices of pie and balloons sent up by little kids.

[Paul Mercurio]

So I feel good coming up on StarTalk. Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil DeGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. And today I have as my co host.

[Guest Comedian]

What's up?

[Paul Mercurio]

Hello, Mr. Mercurio.

[Guest Comedian]

Good to see you, buddy.

[Paul Mercurio]

All right. What you doing, man?

[Guest Comedian]

You know, just running around trying to be funny, not annoying. My wife and I got a dog.

[Paul Mercurio]

As a professional comedian, you can't just try to be funny. You have to be funny.

[Guest Comedian]

Well, it depends.

[Paul Mercurio]

There is no try.

[Guest Comedian]

It depends on the fee. It's all. It's really. It's all. It's a sliding scale.

[Paul Mercurio]

So you're a writer and performer for the Late show?

[Guest Comedian]

I perform on the Late Show.

[Paul Mercurio]

Writer on the Late show.

[Guest Comedian]

And you were on a while back. Awesome. With Mr. Shatner. One of the best shows we ever did.

[Paul Mercurio]

Excellent.

[Guest Comedian]

And.

[Paul Mercurio]

And you got a Broadway show?

[Guest Comedian]

I do. Because I'm a big shot.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah. Permission to speak?

[Guest Comedian]

Yeah. Directed by Frank Oz.

[Paul Mercurio]

What I like about that is it takes the improv dimension of a crowd interaction and makes it formalizes it.

[Guest Comedian]

It does. And it's more. It's not like just crowd work, incel stuff. It's really like just getting people stories. People have incredible stories and I find that they like it because it's no judgment. Say whatever you want. Yeah, yeah. And it's really fun. And now it's online on YouTube and Patreon.

[Paul Mercurio]

All right. Paulmicurio.com it is. Yes. So today's topic, we have with us the director of the all Domain Anomaly Resolution Office. I think I said that right.

[John Kosloski]

You did.

[Paul Mercurio]

The aaro. Please join me in welcoming John Kosloski. Did I say your name right?

[John Kosloski]

You did. You did. Thank you.

[Paul Mercurio]

Welcome to StarTalk.

[John Kosloski]

It's a pleasure to be here.

[Guest Comedian]

Nice to have you.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, my gosh. There is no one in the world, perhaps no one in the universe that isn't interested in this topic.

[John Kosloski]

It's a great topic.

[Paul Mercurio]

Totally a great topic.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah.

[John Kosloski]

Fun job.

[Guest Comedian]

Do you ever get burned out? When you go out and somebody wants to talk to you about it, you're just trying to have a beer.

[John Kosloski]

It hasn't happened yet, but maybe I'm.

[Guest Comedian]

Going to tell everybody to do it. Where do you live? Just give us your address.

[John Kosloski]

Post it on your webpage. Yes, exactly.

[Paul Mercurio]

So you're trained in electrical engineering. Love that. And you did research in quantum optics, I think. Is that a good way to classify that? And you were formerly with the NSA in the Research Directorate.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

NSA people have love, hate relationship with the nsa. They do, in case you didn't know that.

[John Kosloski]

I just thought I'd be careful what you say. I still technically work for them. I'm just on a diversity assignment for a couple years with Arrow, so I do have to go back.

[Guest Comedian]

I could tell you work for the nsa. You seem very calm. You're controlling your heartbeat right now, aren't you?

[John Kosloski]

That's right.

[Guest Comedian]

That's training. That's training.

[Paul Mercurio]

So our audience is not unfamiliar with UAPs. We've done a. A whole show where we had one of my colleagues, David Spergel, who was head of the. This was a civilian commission to look at the reports of unidentified anomalous phenomena. But you're the first one we have. Who's from on the inside. Wonderful on this. So we're delighted to have you. And we have a zillion questions.

[John Kosloski]

Oh, bring them.

[Paul Mercurio]

So let me just start off. Tell us, why were UFOs rebranded as UAP? That's the only way I can think about what you guys did. We all know what UFOs are. UNIDENTIFIED Flying Objects. And now you're still using the U unidentified. An anomalous. That extra. I don't know what it is. And then P is phenomenon. So what led to this need to rebrand it?

[John Kosloski]

Yeah, essentially, the public took over the term UFO and made it synonymous with extraterrestrials. And for us in the government, that becomes problematic because the definition sort of supposed to be in the name unidentified and anomalous. We don't know what it is. We need to approach it without bias. Could be any number of things. But if we just assume it's extraterrestrial, that's going to guide our investigation.

[Paul Mercurio]

Got it. So it put a little distance between you and that assumption that people make.

[John Kosloski]

Yes.

[Guest Comedian]

So you were working in this broader sense while UFO existed, and you would get annoyed. You'd be in the office and start screaming at the TV when you saw.

[John Kosloski]

Somebody say, not me personally, but some of my predecessors.

[Guest Comedian]

I heard it was you. I really heard that.

[Paul Mercurio]

You went, okay, so an anomalous phenomenon. How would one commonly be detected?

[John Kosloski]

So the most common detection is just the human eyeballs.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay.

[John Kosloski]

Most of our reports are coming in from people, but that lends itself to think that cameras are also going to be a great way of detecting them.

[Paul Mercurio]

You think? Right.

[John Kosloski]

Yep. Your doorbell cam is going to pick up every weird flying object. Most of those are probably grasshoppers or gnats, but it's probably going to be coming in from cameras. We're also going to be using radars and other types of sensors, anything that can pick up a physical object, and then looking at electromagnetics as well.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay, so you have a background in quantum optics?

[John Kosloski]

I do.

[Paul Mercurio]

Do you get to use some of that research background from your PhD in this effort?

[John Kosloski]

I hope so. I think that if we're digging, tell.

[Paul Mercurio]

Us what quantum optics is. It's just thinking of light as photons rather than as waves. Is that all it is?

[John Kosloski]

For the most part, that's what it is. Yeah. It's looking at the unique nature of light once you get down to the really small phenomenon. But it has a wave property. It has phase. You know, there's interesting things that can be done with optics at certain levels.

[Guest Comedian]

Can it explain light emissions from UAPs? Because I know there's sort of unusual light emissions at times. Right.

[John Kosloski]

Don't know. Don't know. We don't have good enough scientific data, and that's really the heart of the problem right now.

[Paul Mercurio]

So the whole notion of detection of some kind of electromagnetic energy, you're uniquely positioned as an expert, a research expert in that field.

[John Kosloski]

Yep, that's what we're going for. We have enough fuzzy pictures of Bigfoot now. We need some.

[Paul Mercurio]

Exactly.

[John Kosloski]

We have to put out some more standard sensors. And then once we have an understanding of what the phenomenon could be, then we'll look at upgrading the sensors. But we have to go from just eyeballs to sensors. So it's a huge step right now.

[Paul Mercurio]

And there are many more eyeballs that are just regular people walking around the world than you could ever duplicate in your own government.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah, there's no substituting for that kind of volume of.

[Guest Comedian]

And listen, I think that's great, but I don't. We're human beings. My neighbor, I don't want to go off of his eyeballs. He's nuts. Anybody watching, you know, four people in your life, would you trust that? Like, so don't you get a little like, how do you vet these? In all seriousness, you know, unless the guy shows up with, like, foil on his head. Neil, how do you vet some of that?

[John Kosloski]

Yeah, it's a great question. So we believe that everyone coming to us is sincere and we accept everything that they're saying, and then we look to corroborate that. So it's not any one narrative that we're going off of. It's the collection of narratives.

[Paul Mercurio]

Very important. You don't prejudge what they're saying. You receive it as Some form of data, however flawed it might be.

[John Kosloski]

Absolutely.

[Paul Mercurio]

And so now what distinguishes what you do and your interest in collecting data from what I know my colleague was interested in David Spergel, who was head of. There was a civilian panel that was brought on during the hearings to report on what might these objects be, how might NASA participate, how might we crowdsource data? So they came out with a suggestion that maybe there's an app that someone develops that if you see something, invoke the app and the app will gather all the right information from your smartphone, because everybody's got a smartphone. And then feed a central clearinghouse so that you can have as best information as you can gather. That's what he was talking about. So what might you know or what do you have access to that would be different from what he was trying to solve? And is that a matter of what's classified versus what's not classified?

[John Kosloski]

Not so much classified versus unclassified, but maybe resources and the ability to reach out a little wider audience and partnerships. So we read the study from the NASA, we had folks participate in that, a lot of great recommendations and we're.

[Paul Mercurio]

I thought it was very, very sensible and level headed and honest and.

[John Kosloski]

Yep.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah.

[John Kosloski]

One of the issues we have though is if we're collecting data with cell phones, it's a very small aperture camera and if we're taking pictures of something rather far away, similar to with telescopes, small aperture telescope, you're only going to get certain resolution. And so we're looking at larger sensors, more widely distributed. And so we're going to be tying in with a variety of sensors from other US government organizations. And that's really the benefit that our office brings, that ability to partner across the whole federal government as well as with the private citizens and academia.

[Paul Mercurio]

And you're a branch of the Pentagon.

[John Kosloski]

We are, yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

So what is an example of what would become classified information relative to non classified?

[John Kosloski]

Yeah. So there's nothing inherently classified about the anomalous phenomenon. It tends to be because we can all see it. Exactly, yeah. And we don't know what it is. So you can't say that it's classified if you don't know what it is.

[Paul Mercurio]

We classify your ignorance.

[John Kosloski]

I tell them that all the time with mine. But the issue is the platform it's collected on. So if we're collecting data, say from a specific type of fighter and it has really high fidelity sensors on it, we don't want to let the adversary know the capabilities of those sensors. So that data is classified until we can decrease the resolution, perhaps, or remove the anomalous data from the sensitive part, not give away any of the capabilities, and then just focus on the scientific data.

[Paul Mercurio]

Because I think most people who think of something that would be classified, they're never thinking that maybe we classify how well we can observe something that's exactly. Or what the specs are of this new device that came out of some new lab that the adversaries doesn't know. We can measure that precisely. Or don't even know we have such a device. And so because people usually think it's classified, because we found an entire flying saucer that's classified. Right. But most of what's classified is not that.

[John Kosloski]

No, it's the quality of the sensor, the quality of the data where we fly the platforms. You know, if we're flying in an area where we don't want the public necessarily to know about, we'll have to scrub that data a little bit before we share it with the public.

[Guest Comedian]

So we're talking about adversaries and foreign adversaries. How do you.

[Paul Mercurio]

Foreign or domestic?

[John Kosloski]

Foreign.

[Paul Mercurio]

Get the speech right here.

[Guest Comedian]

Foreign or domestic? How do you. How do you get a sense if you're looking at something that's potentially UAP is in fact sort of some advanced technology from a foreign adversary, and how do you. And then do they sort of leverage off of us not knowing and get into a disinformation campaign?

[John Kosloski]

Great question.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, great question.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

So thank you. I'm done.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

Can I leave now?

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Kosloski]

You've earned your donation on Patreon. Any unknown phenomenon is an opportunity for an adversary to be operating. And that's really one of the reasons that our office is inside of the Pentagon. It provides us access to all the information about our programs, which we would call blue programs, as well as what we know about potential adversary programs and where our society.

[Paul Mercurio]

You said blue programs.

[John Kosloski]

Blue. So US Government Blue, as in the US Air Force. Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

So let's get into some nitty gritty here. So you want to collect data. We do on objects where we don't otherwise know what it is. You have a clearinghouse for this data. What do you do? You pour over it. What do you do? What do you.

[Guest Comedian]

And to tag that is, do you have standardized protocols? Because if you're getting data from all different sources, how do you get some sort of standard measurement so that you can relate it to each other?

[John Kosloski]

Lots of good questions. So the office is.

[Paul Mercurio]

That's your second good question today.

[Guest Comedian]

Thank you.

[Paul Mercurio]

That's your quota.

[Guest Comedian]

Can I Get a raise.

[John Kosloski]

Sold. Star, you're getting paid for this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

Look, I got two bottles of water for it.

[John Kosloski]

So the data right now is primarily coming in from Department of Defense channels. So that's pilots, ground crews. We're also getting some from the FAA and from some law enforcement. We are going to be opening up to the public soon and have a public reporting mechanism.

[Paul Mercurio]

How soon?

[John Kosloski]

Hopefully by the end of this fiscal year.

[Paul Mercurio]

So before the government fiscal year. So in 2025.

[John Kosloski]

Yes, yeah, before October. It'll be based on a website and we can circle back to that in a minute. But the data comes into our office right now, it's primarily narrative data. We're going to be tying into more sensors as we talked about, so that'll be slightly different.

[Paul Mercurio]

And by the way, if people are encouraged to use their smartphone or use some other detection device, then there'll be less narrative data that you'll be cued into.

[John Kosloski]

Absolutely. And so in this website, they'll be able to upload certain types of media, pictures and video up to a certain volume.

[Guest Comedian]

You know, you're going to get a lot of weird pictures, like guys at their birthday party, stuff like that, just whatever.

[John Kosloski]

We're prepared for that. But inside of that large haystack, hopefully there'll be some really nice needles that we can use. And so potentially a lot of data. Right now we have a little over 1800 cases. And so we're going to be investing heavily in automation, machine learning, artificial intelligence that will be able to triage use natural language processing, look for correlations across that data and feed into investigations.

[Paul Mercurio]

What will you do, which we're already contending with? When people introduce fake data created by AI, do you have safeguards against being fooled by that?

[John Kosloski]

We're working on it, but I don't know that there is a work every time solution. I think that there's always going to be advancements in that technology. They're coming out weekly and it's just going to be an arms race essentially. And how. Well, we can detect that this will be one of the offshoots.

[Paul Mercurio]

You know, it's also true if someone claims there's a, you know, flying saucer in front of the place and then they produce a photo of it, AI generated photo. And no one else has any other photo yet. There are other people in the street. Because when you have multiple photos, you have different. You can triangulate on what's going on.

[Guest Comedian]

You're like Columbo, you're like, it's like amazing. You figure out if there's five people and one gives and the other doesn't, then it fits.

[Paul Mercurio]

No, what I'm saying, it's very hard, even for AI. Cause AI doesn't think this way to properly reproduce every angle that everyone has on that object and what that object would look like from every side. And most people who would want to pull such a prank wouldn't know enough to even give the right instructions to make that happen, is all I'm saying. So that's part of your checks and balances on the data that you receive?

[John Kosloski]

It is, but similar to the narrative data. We're not gonna go off just any one report. It's all about feeding into the scientific method. It'll.

[Paul Mercurio]

Scientific method?

[Guest Comedian]

Wait a minute, what's that?

[Paul Mercurio]

You're going too fast.

[Guest Comedian]

Whoa, Mr. Big Shot. I work for the DOD. Real quick, on AI, there's theories that, you know, AI in and of itself has its issues because it's designed in a way to give you the answer you want. It's a product that they want you to keep using. Right. So in a way, you have to also sort through that. Right?

[John Kosloski]

We do, yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

Because like I type in Paul Mercurial's handsome. Yes, you are. Yes, you are. And it just keeps coming back. No, in all seriousness, that's an issue.

[Paul Mercurio]

You've done this. It sounds like you've done this.

[Guest Comedian]

No, but it's all seriousness. That can be an issue too. Right. So you can only trust it. So.

[John Kosloski]

Yes.

[Guest Comedian]

So much in and of itself, inherently based on what it is right now.

[John Kosloski]

Yes. And there's also that possibility of hallucinations within AI.

[Guest Comedian]

Tell me about it.

[John Kosloski]

It's going to be essential for us to be using different types of systems and a variety of filters. But all of that is not to do automated analysis. It's to help do triaging. Prioritize what gets put in front of a human and not remove the human you're supporting. Yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

Just a more substantial, substantial evidence of AI.

[Advertisement Speaker]

This summer, try the new Strato Frappuccino blended beverage at Starbucks. It's the classic blended iced coffee you know and love. Now topped with a creamy layer of handcrafted brown sugar cold foam. Available for a limited time. Your Strato Frappuccino is ready at Starbucks.

This episode is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states situations. What's more stressful than a packed calendar? Running out of coffee right before a meeting? Now that's a real pain. Thrive Market's Back to School sale is the perfect time to stock up and reset. No school schedule required. Whether it's pantry, staples, snacks, vitamins or skincare, Thrive makes it easy to shop high quality essentials without the errands or ingredient label. Deep down dives popular picks like Aloha protein bars, simple mills, crackers and poppy drinks are delivered fast with savings of up to 25%. Smart filters make it simple to shop by diet or lifestyle, and the Healthy Swaps tool helps upgrade regular buyers. No label, stress included. It's so easy. All I do is lean into their tools. I organize deliveries I want to the time that suits me best. I can one off or rinse and repeat. It's so simple. Plus I can trust the ingredients are certified organic and the suppliers are ethically sound. Not only am I eating healthy and staying in shape, but my wallet feels better. For shopping at Thrive and now's the best time to try Thrive Market. You'll get up to 25% off select items and new members get Thrive 30% off their first order plus a free gift. Go to thrivemarket.com startalk to start saving. The sale ends August 31st. Don't miss it.

[John Kosloski]

Hello, I'm Vicky Maroque Allen and I support StarTalk on Patreon. This is StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

[Paul Mercurio]

Do you try to get in information on the person reporting? The reason why I ask is many people who saw the Navy video, of course, with the monochromatic tic tac and you hear the excitement in the Navy pilots were those F18s, I guess, where they were flying in restricted airspace, of course. But you hear that excitement and then you say to yourself, these are Navy pilots. They wouldn't be trying to fool us. So there's an assumption that a person's pedigree makes their data better or their reactions better than someone else without pedigree. And my view on this is are you human? Then you have susceptibilities, period. I don't care how many stars and bars you have on your uniform. That being said, the community of amateur astronomers in the world, it's a world community. We look up all the time. We look up more than Navy pilots do. Okay. You don't get an increased number of sightings of things they don't understand. Because we know what the hell we're looking at. We know what Venus looks like, but that's not in the twilight stuck sky. We know what. I'm on a roll here. We know what satellites look like when they're crossing the sky and when they're lit and then they disappear. How did that happen? They went into Earth's shadow. Because we know this. So do you take into account what might be the profession of the person reporting? We do, because it can go both ways is all I'm saying.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah, we're not looking for conclusions. So if somebody reports something, we want to know what they experienced, what they saw, not what they think they saw.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, but you're not. But of course you're gonna get what they think they saw. I have correspondence from an old lady in Brooklyn who wrote to me saying, not. She didn't know me. I was just director of the planetarium. So that's what I was.

[John Kosloski]

You're just that guy.

[Paul Mercurio]

I'm just that guy. Right. She writes to me and says, there's a hovering. There's a hovering light in the sky. And so I wrote back and I said, what direction are you looking? Well, I'm looking towards Manhattan. So. Okay, so she's looking west. Okay, so I know that Venus was visible after sunset at that time. And I say, well, how high above. How high in the sky is? Well, it's about a few inches above Marty's Deli. Okay, this is how.

[Guest Comedian]

This is what you're gonna get. This is what you're gonna get.

[Paul Mercurio]

And then I said, oh, okay. You're very likely seeing planet Venus. It is very bright, and it's not hovering, it's just there, and it's gonna set like everything. And she said, wow. And she had a kind of an older voice, so she had to been there a while. And I said, because I'm thinking, this is not the first time this has happened in Venus. So how come you've never noticed this before? Oh, there used to be a building blocking my view, and they tore it down, and now I can see the sky.

[Guest Comedian]

I just want to be in her apartment. Irving, I'm telling you, it's not a streetlight. It's not a streetlight, Irving. See, I told you. Look, it's there again.

[John Kosloski]

It's coming for us.

[Guest Comedian]

It's coming for us.

[Paul Mercurio]

So she is speaking truth as her perceptive ability enables her. Yes and no. She's not interpreting it. She's not saying I see aliens flying in the sky. So there was that accuracy. But to tell me it's a few inches above Marty's deli is not helpful. Right.

[John Kosloski]

It requires a lot more legwork on our part after the fact, and we do get a lot of that. But we find that most people do report, like you were saying, what they're seeing, and it's fairly accurate. Now, the context is a little off from our perspective, but when we talk to folks, we're not looking to look at their pedigree, like you were saying. We just want to understand the context. Were you stressed? Were you looking up? Were you looking down? You know, what was going on with you?

[Guest Comedian]

In a way, you have, like, multiple safety nets regarding getting just narrative information from people, from the average person. So as you start to sort of sift through that, using those, and you standardize it as best you can, as you said. And at this point, yeah, there will.

[John Kosloski]

Be a standard for the public reporting, which isn't out yet. There will be a standard form that will ask certain questions, and then people will be able to add additional context in the email to fill it out.

[Paul Mercurio]

And so how many people are in your office?

[John Kosloski]

Several dozen.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay.

[John Kosloski]

It's a little fluid. You know, people are coming and going.

[Paul Mercurio]

So that feels like the right number. I mean, at least initially. If it comes a big thing. Sure.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah. And it's not the size of our office that's really critical. It's the partnerships that we have across the US Government and that we're building with federally funded research.

[Paul Mercurio]

So many of those people are establishing those. That connectivity.

[John Kosloski]

Exactly.

[Paul Mercurio]

So, you know, it would be cool if you guys developed a kit. People would buy this kit, you know, that has different tools of measurement. And then basically, you're deputizing everyone to become a scientist.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah. So there are some UFO groups that have designed kits, observatories, essentially. And there are badges here.

[Guest Comedian]

I have a badge.

[Paul Mercurio]

You need a badge. It's not fixable unless you have a badge.

[Guest Comedian]

Big shiny badge.

[John Kosloski]

Once you get me one, then we can start handing them out to other people.

[Guest Comedian]

I wouldn't mind that pin, by the way. If you want to throw it my way anyway, go ahead.

[John Kosloski]

Okay.

[Guest Comedian]

You have one.

[John Kosloski]

Here you go.

[Guest Comedian]

Oh, my God.

[Paul Mercurio]

What?

[Guest Comedian]

I just got to free pin everybody.

[John Kosloski]

What?

[Guest Comedian]

This is going on ebay in an hour.

[John Kosloski]

They better bring a lot. But you're absolutely right. I think getting more sensors out into the country, getting more data.

[Paul Mercurio]

And these are sensors that have a uniform calibration because you're supplying them.

[John Kosloski]

I think that's a good idea. Now, whether or not we, the US Government can sell sensors, probably not. But what we can do is procure sensors. We can deploy sensors and potentially provide that data back out to the public. Like through data.gov, nASA does this already.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh good.

[John Kosloski]

Other groups have done.

[Paul Mercurio]

I Forgot there's a data.gov they push data out.

[John Kosloski]

And so I think that similar to the way that the folks have helped NASA observe things coming in through the analysis of their data, we should be able to push our data out and help them find the unusual.

[Paul Mercurio]

Just because the amateur astronomy community has more eyes on the sky than professional astrophysicists. So they will discover things and then alert the professional community and then we can turn our big telescopes on it and get a better view.

[John Kosloski]

We're thinking the same thing.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

So you also have to be conscious in the location and the type of sensor affecting geographical bias. And do you run the risk of what's geographical bias? One of the biases that you have to face.

[John Kosloski]

Right.

[Guest Comedian]

And then you have hot spots that aren't truly hot spots.

[Paul Mercurio]

What's a geographical bias?

[Guest Comedian]

That this sort of. There's a presumption that UAPs have been seen in one area and so people start to think that they've seen more in that area.

[John Kosloski]

A sociological effect, essentially.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah.

[John Kosloski]

So yeah, there's a couple issues that we're contending with. One, there could be a geographic bias just imposed by the natural environment. If there's more ambient light from cities, maybe they're going to be less likely to see the Venuses and less likely to report or less likely to see the actual phenomenon.

[Paul Mercurio]

I like this future prospect of getting everyone to be your eyes. Your eyes on. On the aliens or the eyes on the anomalies.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah. If it's a true anomaly and it's as rare as we think it is right now, for all the cases coming in, it seems to be less than 2% of those cases. From good DoD reports, less than 2% after a careful analysis seem to be anomalous. We're gonna need an awful lot of help.

[Paul Mercurio]

Well, let me unpack that. So of all the reports, what you're saying is 98% are explainable? Apparently not by the person who made the report. Cuz otherwise they wouldn't have reported it. After careful analysis like my fellow astronomers, like we know what weather phenomena does. We know a lot of things. Clouds, you know, so I've seen things with like, wow, if I didn't have the background that I do in meteorology and in night sky phenomena, I would be totally calling that in to the government, to whatever level of the government would take interest. So now, given that you say about 2% remain unexplained after all of your analysis.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah. So we've closed about 40% of the cases, about 57%. We don't have enough good data, scientific quality data to do a careful analysis.

[Guest Comedian]

But they're still open.

[John Kosloski]

They're still open. We are always looking for additional data.

[Paul Mercurio]

That's when he said, not closed, that means open.

[Guest Comedian]

Oh, is that right?

[Paul Mercurio]

Not close, mean.

[John Kosloski]

It's a great point, though, because some people think that we just close a case when we don't have the data. We're always looking for more data.

[Guest Comedian]

Breakthrough technology, right? Is that a catch 22? In a way. Because if you're looking at something and trying to determine if it's so advanced that it technically meets the definition of breakthrough technology, but if you don't know what it is, how do you get that it's a breakthrough?

[Paul Mercurio]

That's easy. Because it behaves in ways that no known laws of physics would allow. And so that takes you outside of your zone of awareness.

[Guest Comedian]

I think I asked him.

[John Kosloski]

So we actually. We're not quite as picky. So we're not requiring known. Breaking the known laws of physics. We're just going past well past the bounds of our engineering. So, for example, we're not assuming that it can travel faster than the speed of light. We're just saying if it's in the lower atmosphere and it's going Mach 35, that's very interesting to us. Maybe physically possible, but the engineering would really be outlandish.

[Guest Comedian]

But if it's doing something that you don't understand, it's doing. It's technically. Could be breakthrough technology because it's doing something that we don't want.

[Paul Mercurio]

And I would want the Pentagon to know what that is and protect it. That's what I'd want it to do.

[Guest Comedian]

Exactly.

[Paul Mercurio]

Oh, by the way, I read the full. I don't know if it's still the one used, the quoted description of what a UAP is and the government's response to it. It's something like a UAP is anything that's unidentified and anomalous that could pose a threat to our military bases or operations. And I thought, no, that could pose a threat to any of us. I care about you. Yes, but you're the fricking military. You're supposed to protect us.

[Guest Comedian]

And you've got guns. We don't.

[John Kosloski]

We have A fighting chance. You don't.

[Paul Mercurio]

It's America. Everybody's got guns. They have missiles. Okay, that's true.

[John Kosloski]

That's true.

[Paul Mercurio]

Get your arsenal straight here. America.

[Guest Comedian]

America.

[Paul Mercurio]

So tell me again, your ongoing statistics on these reports. Reports. Where are you now, percentage wise?

[John Kosloski]

Yeah. We have closed about 40% of our cases.

[Paul Mercurio]

Case closed.

[John Kosloski]

Yep, yep. We understand what they are. Right. About 57% are unresolved. And so those are in our active archive. Always looking for that enriching Data. And about 2% are unresolved.

[Paul Mercurio]

Unresolved and unresolved means continuing analysis. They're still. They're mysterious. You can't explain them. You're waiting for some better data or some deeper understanding of what's going on that you might not have yourself.

[John Kosloski]

Right. And we're using those to guide our hypotheses that will help us decide how to tune our sensors when we put them in the field. Tell us what to look for as we jump back into that scientific method.

[Guest Comedian]

And how long will you keep a case like that open?

[John Kosloski]

We're never going to close it until we resolve it.

[Guest Comedian]

Really?

[John Kosloski]

Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

And by the way, I want to emphasize what you just said. When we explore the universe, if we're just exploring, not knowing anything, you throw in some sensors. Just tell me what you got. Once it makes a detection of some kind, however mysterious, the next round we're gonna focus on that. We're gonna say, now that we have this. It's over here. It's got this spectral type. Let's put in a special spectral analyzer for just that. And that way you can hone in.

[Guest Comedian]

More sophisticated sensors or whatever.

[Paul Mercurio]

Exactly. On what would otherwise be just a survey of what could be out there.

[John Kosloski]

Exactly.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah.

[John Kosloski]

Yep. As an example of a couple of those cases that merit further analysis that are helping us refine our hypotheses, there are a few triangles that have been seen by local law enforcement.

[Paul Mercurio]

These are glowing triangles in the sky.

[John Kosloski]

In this case, very, very black triangle, triangular prism, so it looks like a pie slice, hovering about the size of a Prius about 40 to 60 meters away. So as the officer was driving up to investigate, underneath a glowing orb, which I'll get to those in a second.

[Guest Comedian]

I am so afraid right now. Are we. I want a bunker. Can I get a bunker for Christmas?

[Paul Mercurio]

I'm worried enough about the damn triangle. Okay, all right. Now I'm a little. Now I'm scared. Okay, go.

[John Kosloski]

He slammed on his brakes, and this thing the size of a Prius, blacker than black, reared up 45 degrees and then shot up into the sky faster than anything he'd ever seen. And as it was leaving his site, it shot out red and blue fireworks. Flares so bright, it lit up the inside of his vehicle. He didn't see any propulsion, no wind, didn't hear anything over the sound of his own vehicle.

[Paul Mercurio]

And you have more than one of these sightings?

[John Kosloski]

We have a few others. One from local law enforcement, some from the area.

[Guest Comedian]

He was not able to get a picture.

[John Kosloski]

No dash cam, unfortunately.

[Paul Mercurio]

How unfortunate. Yes, they've got chest cams, but you.

[Guest Comedian]

Got to give all of law enforcement UAP cams.

[Paul Mercurio]

Right?

[John Kosloski]

So we're working on that.

[Paul Mercurio]

Very disappointed here.

[Guest Comedian]

Really?

[John Kosloski]

Yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

Wow. I am.

[John Kosloski]

You're on it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

You want to roll?

[John Kosloski]

We got to equip, folks. You're absolutely right.

[Paul Mercurio]

I am so disappointed here.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah. Yeah. So there have been cases. Triangles. There have been cases of large orbs seen hovering. A few.

[Paul Mercurio]

Why didn't the officer turn on their forward dash cam?

[John Kosloski]

In this case, he slammed on his brakes. It happened almost instantaneously, and he was terrified. He didn't know what was happening.

[Paul Mercurio]

Knew enough to notice it and respond by putting on his brakes.

[Guest Comedian]

Couldn't just get the pull over. Please. You couldn't do that. You can't do that. I throw a gum wrapper out and I get that.

[Paul Mercurio]

I'm just saying he had enough time to think about it, put on his brakes. If I see a triangle prison, I'm photographing it.

[Guest Comedian]

I know, but it's out of fear. Maybe people are skeptical because they don't want to confront something they don't understand.

[John Kosloski]

In this case, I don't think he was skeptical. He was terrified for his life, and so he was just getting back to a safe position. That's what that was.

[Guest Comedian]

Did he go in reverse?

[John Kosloski]

He did 100 miles an hour backwards while on the phone with his sergeant.

[Guest Comedian]

The whole time on the phone going backwards?

[John Kosloski]

Yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

He was stop and take a picture.

[John Kosloski]

I don't think that's what your training tells you.

[Guest Comedian]

Give me this guy's name and badge number. I want his badge number right now.

[John Kosloski]

I'm not sure that'll go well for you.

[Guest Comedian]

Wait. There was a floating orb thing. Glowing floating orbs.

[John Kosloski]

In that same region of the country, a couple law enforcement officers had seen glowing orbs few hundred feet above the ground a few miles away in one of these instances.

[Paul Mercurio]

Wait, if it's a few miles away, how do they know it was a few hundred feet above the ground?

[John Kosloski]

He was estimating based on height above trees.

[Paul Mercurio]

This is 4 inches above Marty's Deli.

[John Kosloski]

Yes, that's what this sounds like. That's exactly right.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay. All right.

[John Kosloski]

That's exactly right.

[Paul Mercurio]

What part of the country was this?

[John Kosloski]

We'd rather not say, because we're conducting our investigations.

[Guest Comedian]

We don't want to. I am taking a vacation. You got to tell me where, because I am not going there.

[Paul Mercurio]

So how precisely do you intersect either law enforcement or the public as a supplier of resources to them?

[John Kosloski]

Yeah, right now we're.

[Paul Mercurio]

Cause you're not giving out kits yet. Okay.

[John Kosloski]

Right. We're in the mode where we're gonna be providing a few kits to primarily federal law enforcement so that as they're conducting their normal job, if they come across the uap, they'll be able to gather quality data for us for the most.

[Paul Mercurio]

So this would be like a little black box, break seal in emergency for the alien.

[John Kosloski]

Well, we're hoping that they're going to use it more often, maybe for their law enforcement responsibilities, so that they're well practiced and well versed in it. We don't want them just to use it once. And the primary role for us, though, is the analysis of the data. So they'll be able to provide whatever data they have. We will then go through a long checklist of other places we can get data, like FAA radars, for example, other sources of imagery.

[Guest Comedian]

By the way, how do you define a hotspot? Like how many things have to happen, what pattern of life has to happen, or frequency of something where you say that's a hotspot.

[John Kosloski]

So we've been hesitant to define hotspots at this point now because we don't know that we can get past the bias that we have, our collection bias. And so we're going to be working with some statisticians as we're moving more sensors out and getting data from the public to assess the noise in that data, and then we'll look at defining hotspots.

[Paul Mercurio]

So collection bias. Fascinating term. I love it. It seems to me one of those would be a person's expectation to see something once they heard that other people have seen it, and then they will interpret something that might have otherwise been, have a simple explanation, but they're shocked into joining the crowd.

[Guest Comedian]

Is that like a form of confirmation bias? In a way?

[John Kosloski]

Yeah, I would imagine so, yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

No, because there was some fascinating case where there was a zoo where a leopard had escaped, and they put everyone on alert for the leopard, and they got, like, dozens of sightings across the city, and then they finally found that the Leopard was asleep behind a door and never left the zoo. So. So. So people's expectations.

[Guest Comedian]

The leopard was a placebo, basically.

[Paul Mercurio]

But an interesting psychology experiment that.

[Advertisement Speaker]

Paramount has a mountain of entertainment for your whole crew.

[John Kosloski]

Where do we go to next?

[Advertisement Speaker]

With something for everyone, whether you're at home or on the go. If you want something new like Dora and the Search for Sol Dorado, I'm.

[John Kosloski]

Dora the Explorer Vaminos.

[Advertisement Speaker]

Something loved like spongebob squarepants.

[Paul Mercurio]

I'm ready.

[Advertisement Speaker]

And something to stream together like Survivor.

[John Kosloski]

Survivor's ready.

[Advertisement Speaker]

Go find it all on Paramount plus stream now.

This is an ad for the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game with your mum or grabbing a coffee with your dog. Or earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases made with it. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply.

[Guest Comedian]

Riley Herbst from 2311 Racing checking in. Got a break in between team meetings. Sounds like the perfect time for some fast paced fun at Chumba Casino. No waiting, just instant action to keep you going. So next time you need a pick me up, fire it up and take a spin. Play [e-mail] let's Chumba.

[Advertisement Speaker]

No purchase necessary. VGW Group voidware prohibited by law. CTNC's 21 plus sponsored by Jumbo Casino.

[Paul Mercurio]

You work for the Pentagon?

[John Kosloski]

Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

So I don't care what the thing is that you don't know what it is. I care about your assessment of whether or not you think it's a threat. And so where's the line between this is just some sky phenomenon? Even if we don't know what it is, don't worry about it. And this could be a threat. It could be an adversary or foreign or domestic. And that's your job, to protect us?

[John Kosloski]

Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

How do you find the line and how do you draw it?

[John Kosloski]

Great question. When it's unidentified, we've tried to look at is it demonstrating any anomalous characteristics and is it doing anything that would demonstrate that it's potentially an advanced technology? If it is, for example, a blurry blob floating at the speed of the wind at some normal altitude, we would probably assess that's not a threat. If it is far away, that would be a cloud.

[Guest Comedian]

Cloud?

[John Kosloski]

A balloon. Yeah. Things that the DoD doesn't usually worry about.

[Guest Comedian]

Yeah, I don't know.

[John Kosloski]

That's exactly right.

[Guest Comedian]

Cloud looks menacing in more ways than one.

[John Kosloski]

It might rain.

[Guest Comedian]

It might rain. You got to come on the road with me.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, you got a thing. So it's a threat assessment ultimately that you want to make.

[John Kosloski]

And so we have too many cases to be able to do a month long, multi month long analysis of every one case. And so we have to triage them and we do that based on how much of a threat it might be, how anomalous it seems to be, how urgent the case would be, and then the quality of the data we have.

[Guest Comedian]

You also have to look at all the various biases as well, right? I mean, it's like confirmation bias. There's the stigma. Is that still an issue where it shouldn't be?

[Paul Mercurio]

It's all in the news, mainstream media.

[John Kosloski]

It shouldn't be, but it is. We see it across different pockets. Some of our partners aren't comfortable reporting, but no, it's gotten a lot better.

[Paul Mercurio]

Stupid. No, no, but you tell them Neil DeGrasse Tyson said.

[John Kosloski]

Okay, I'll get a note from dad, you report.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay.

[Guest Comedian]

You know what? I think you should be the psychologist on the staff.

[Paul Mercurio]

No, I'm just saying.

[John Kosloski]

But you're right.

[Paul Mercurio]

I'm watching people testify in Congress and they're testifying that this is real and they will show us your evidence in the back. No, cuz that could put me at risk. You're already out there talking about it.

[Guest Comedian]

No, but it's also the stigma of like people don't wanna report it because they think people are gonna think that they're nuts or crazy.

[Paul Mercurio]

We have congressional hearings on this. Okay, I got you on this show, all right? If I thought it was crazy, you would have not walked through the front door. All right? So what I want to, I have on my notes here, there are a few cases that might have been mysterious initially and then they were like case solved with the rubber stamp. So I have one here. Go fast.

[John Kosloski]

Go fast.

[Paul Mercurio]

What is that? What was go fast?

[John Kosloski]

It's a classic case from 2015. It was popularized in 2017 where an F18 Super Hornet was flying off the coast of Florida.

[Paul Mercurio]

That is an airplane.

[John Kosloski]

Airplane, yes. Yes, sir.

[Paul Mercurio]

So this is the one that got built. Probably the most press attention of any of them. Yep, that's what I was, I guess I was reciting earlier that has the pilot track where you can hear them.

[Guest Comedian]

Close to the surface of the water.

[John Kosloski]

Though it appears to be close to the surface of the water and that's what the pilot saw. It looks like that object is just zipping along really quickly near the surface of the water. But after careful analysis of all the numbers on the heads up display there and doing the geometry and looking at the track of the airplane as it was flying, we were able to assess that the object that actually had to be at about 13,000ft, not close to the water and the plane was about 25,000ft. And there's actually an optical phenomenon called motion parallax, which familiar with from astronomy that makes it appear that the object is moving much faster relative to the background than it actually is.

[Guest Comedian]

There's no rotor wash, there's no jet wash. There's nothing though. That's what's fascinating about this.

[John Kosloski]

There's nothing. But with the parallax we can assess that the object is moving actually at wind speed. So we don't know what that object is, but we know that it's moving a bird. It's consistent with a bird or a balloon. We don't know what it is though.

[Paul Mercurio]

Or superb.

[Guest Comedian]

Wouldn't a balloon.

[Paul Mercurio]

It's a bird. It's a plane.

[Guest Comedian]

But wouldn't a balloon should have been more erratic?

[Paul Mercurio]

No, it would go with the wind. A balloon can't go where the wind won't take it.

[Guest Comedian]

But what if the wind shifts quickly? It's good then it would.

[Paul Mercurio]

But that's not what happened here.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah, at those altitudes it's more like a stream. So it's like a leaf in the stream. Just going with it.

[Guest Comedian]

Sounds like he knows a lot about go fast. You should interview him.

[John Kosloski]

Yes, we're going to bring him on staff later.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, look, so there's a case here. It might be anecdotal, but it could very much happen. And this happened in New Jersey. I was told there was a squad car that was tracking a UFO in the sky. And the ufo, of course, it's happening in twilight dusk as aldi.

[Guest Comedian]

Let me guess. The UFO was shaped.

[Paul Mercurio]

It was darting back and forth left and right across the road. Okay. It was this glowing light hovering, darting back and forth. And he's calling this in and you can hear it. And then. So what is it? And then they found out. This is a little bit of your motion parallax problem. It was the road was turning and he was so transfixed on the object.

[Guest Comedian]

Oh my God.

[Paul Mercurio]

That he did not realize he was following the road.

[Guest Comedian]

Please tell me he's not a cop anymore.

[Paul Mercurio]

What's his badge number?

[Guest Comedian]

This is what I mean. In all seriousness, going back to what we talked about, getting data from God bless people. Like, the average person. Like, it's. You're gonna have a hard job.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah. A lot of analysis is required for these anomalies. Yeah, absolutely.

[Paul Mercurio]

That's. That's code for a lot of idiots out there. That's a polite way.

[Guest Comedian]

Not my show. Try to be diplomatic, but, you know.

[Paul Mercurio]

So I got a couple more just so you can comment on it. What do we call here? Oh, Mount Aetna. So what do we have here?

[John Kosloski]

So in this case, we had a platform that was flying through the Mediterranean.

[Paul Mercurio]

What is a platform?

[John Kosloski]

A drone or an airplane with a camera on it.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay. Not everyone is military. Floating.

[John Kosloski]

Sorry. I'm working on it.

[Paul Mercurio]

When I see platforms, I think of stages where bands perform.

[Guest Comedian]

The band Kansas was floating across the sky.

[John Kosloski]

That's right.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay.

[John Kosloski]

So in this case, they're flying through the Mediterranean and they're getting video of Mount Etna as it's exploding. So they're going to, while they're watching this plume, see an object that appears to come towards the plume and then go through the plume, superheated ash and gas. And it looks to go through unphased. And those temperatures are between 900 and 1800 degrees Fahrenheit. And so that would seem to be very anomalous. We sent this off to a number of our science and technology partners, as well as other agencies within the intelligence community, had them do an independent analysis, and then brought them together. They came to four separate conclusions on what it should be very important so.

[Paul Mercurio]

That they don't influence each other in their own analysis. So that keeps the independence of the perspectives. Okay, go ahead.

[John Kosloski]

Yep. And then we brought them together and asked them to hash it out. Turns out several of the groups invented new methodologies. Several of them looked into the type of thermal turbulence that you would get from a volcano and how that would affect the imagery. Bringing all that together, the new techniques, they were able to create a model that would predict where that anomalous object would be floating through the video. And even after they lose sight of the object later in the video, they recover it. That model predicts where it shows up at the end. And even though the human eye can't see it just in the video, with their careful analysis, they're able to pull it out. And so that validates the model.

[Paul Mercurio]

So what was it?

[John Kosloski]

Long story short, we don't know exactly what it is, but.

[Paul Mercurio]

Why do I have you here?

[John Kosloski]

You are killing me.

[Paul Mercurio]

I thought he knew something.

[John Kosloski]

That's what my mom says.

[Guest Comedian]

It's a flying toaster, everybody.

[John Kosloski]

It's A flying.

[Paul Mercurio]

Flying toaster. Okay, finish then.

[John Kosloski]

What we can say is that it was about 170 km away from the volcano, 30 km away from the platform. So much closer to the platform than it was to the volcano, nowhere near the superheated ash, and it was flying at speeds consistent with the wind. Again, we don't know if it was a balloon or a bird. Probably a balloon. A lot of sky trash up there.

[Guest Comedian]

Okay, but environmental factors are huge factors in your work, right?

[John Kosloski]

They are.

[Guest Comedian]

Like Starlink is also another issue where it sort of pilots seeing things off of Starlink turns out the light's bouncing off at a certain way.

[John Kosloski]

So all of that stuff.

[Paul Mercurio]

So just to emphasize, even though you don't know what it is, the fact that it was not in the volcano, a the fact that it was moving in the prevailing wind speed helped you to determine that it was not a.

[John Kosloski]

Threat yet, not anomalous.

[Paul Mercurio]

And so for neither anomalous nor a threat.

[John Kosloski]

Right. And so for our assessments, if it's not both unidentified and anomalous, then it's no longer within our purview. We'll hand it off to the appropriate authorities to deal with it. Since it's not a threat.

[Paul Mercurio]

Lackey is over in the.

[Guest Comedian]

As long as it's not that cop that couldn't figure out it was on a road.

[Paul Mercurio]

So remind me, Mountain Etna. Is that Italy?

[John Kosloski]

Yes, that's Italy.

[Paul Mercurio]

That's Italy. Okay. Italy's got that. It's got Vesuvius, man. Italy's got Italian.

[Guest Comedian]

We're hot, people.

[Paul Mercurio]

Is active volcano?

[John Kosloski]

It is, yeah. Just erupted recently. Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay. Yeah. And I got another one here, the Puerto Rico object. Again, you need some better branding here for your.

[John Kosloski]

Maybe not my strong suit. Okay, so what I did, I didn't name these. So in this case, this is a Customs and Border Protection platform, and they're looking through a midwave infrared camera and they pick up an object or a pair of objects, and those objects are going to appear to come together and fuse into one and then separate a couple times throughout this video. And later, it will appear that that object flies over the water and it will appear to dip into the water, creating what we would say is a trans medium effect, where it goes from one domain to the other and then come back out.

[Guest Comedian]

It's a flying dolphin. Well, could you tell me, do you have a sense, were you able through the analysis to figure out the size of that object?

[John Kosloski]

We were. So in this case, the platform, the Customs and Border Protection platform was flying around the airport and by analyzing its trajectory as well as the direction that the camera was pointing, we can assess that the object was actually flying over the airport. More appropriately, floating over the airport, slowly descending. And it just appears that the object dips into the water because the water is in the background and it's an infrared camera. And we get something called thermal crossover, where the temperature of the water equals the temperature of the object and you.

[Paul Mercurio]

Can'T distinguish them at that point.

[John Kosloski]

Exactly. So it looks like it merges in and we can assess it was about a 1 meter size object.

[Paul Mercurio]

In the remake of the Thomas Crown Affair, where there's a heist of art.

[John Kosloski]

Yes.

[Paul Mercurio]

What they do is they heat up the room, they kill the air conditioner, and it's a very hot day. And so the temperature begins to rise until it's the same as the body temperature of the thieves. So that the infrared cameras can't distinguish just the air, which is radiating infrared with the skin temperature of the people. Turns out there would be a way to do it, but a given is Hollywood, so that's fine because gas has a different density of the radiation than a solid object would. So you would be able to find a border between the two, but one wouldn't pop the way it would otherwise be. So. Yeah. So if you don't know that, then you don't know that. Right?

[John Kosloski]

Yep. Yeah. So in this case, we assessed that it was likely either a balloon or a pair of sky lanterns or a pair of balloons rather. Or a pair of sky lanterns that are just changing in orientation with the wind, that wind thing that you wanted to happen with the balloons. That happening.

[Paul Mercurio]

What is a sky lantern?

[John Kosloski]

So sky lantern would be like a Chinese lantern where you have a light.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay. And some cultures, they pop those up and it's buoyant by heated air.

[John Kosloski]

That's exactly right. And as it's losing fuel, it's going to descend. And this is near some resorts in Puerto Rico where they tend to launch those sky lanterns for weddings. So it's consistent with that. But we don't know for sure if it's sky lanterns or balloons.

[Paul Mercurio]

Got it. One thing, just as we try to land this plane, what's your relationship with conspiracy theorists?

[John Kosloski]

So we're not looking to debunk anything. We're not the belief police. And so.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, but you have street cred from the nsa and nobody trusts the NSA except when we want them and then they're our friend. Right, but it was a love hate relationship, or at least that movies have with the nsa. So why should anyone Believe anything you ever say.

[John Kosloski]

I don't know. I'm not gonna make an argument that.

[Guest Comedian]

They should, but would I said that differently?

[Paul Mercurio]

I probably could have. Okay, take two.

[Guest Comedian]

Oh yeah. Who says? You and what army?

[Paul Mercurio]

So what methods, efforts do you invest to gain the trust of people who are reporting to you?

[John Kosloski]

I think that the only method that we have is absolute transparency. And so it's difficult from within the Department of Defense with the different data sources that we have. But we're working towards releasing more videos, releasing them faster, releasing more of the narratives, shining a lot more light onto the data that's coming in and the cases as we're resolving them. And I think it's just through that transparency that we're going to build trust.

[Guest Comedian]

Well, also the transparency, to me, it would help educate us to know what to and not look. So it's that fine line that you have. There's security issues, private data. By the way, I know you're NSA and you're doing this. You get set your hands on a lot of sensors. Please tell me you're not going to check my Google searches and find out that I'm a Buzz Lightyear fan group. Panic because it's very embarrassing.

[Paul Mercurio]

They've already done that. It's too late.

[John Kosloski]

I did my homework. Coming soon.

[Guest Comedian]

But is that transparency sort of educates us to be able to help you.

[John Kosloski]

It does. So in addition to showing the raw information that's coming in and our final product, additionally, as we discover these phenomenon which are being misidentified, such as the Starling flaring that you mentioned, we are building educational materials that we're releasing through papers, through videos, and we want to get that out to the public. Not just to affect the conspiracy theories, but just so that the public understands when they look up in the sky in New Jersey or elsewhere, what are they seeing?

[Guest Comedian]

Makes your life easier because they can start ruling things out.

[John Kosloski]

It does, yeah. It'll be a smaller haystack, especially New Jersey. I love New Jersey.

[Paul Mercurio]

So thanks for your time.

[John Kosloski]

That's been my pleasure.

[Paul Mercurio]

And you came up from Washington for.

[Guest Comedian]

This and we did fascinating stuff.

[Paul Mercurio]

Very much appreciate that. Thank you. Obviously, the subtext of most people's interest in this is whether we're being visited by aliens, Whether or not you have the more antiseptic view, is it a threat or is it not? Or is it a balloon? People are saying, is it an alien? I get that. Hollywood stokes it within us. More than a billion high resolution photos are uploaded to the Internet every day that people obtain with their smartphones. Around the world. So it seems to me if there were aliens visiting us, it would be crowdsourced without your prompting. We'd have pictures of flying saucers and there wouldn't be a fuzzy dot in an infrared camera in a restricted area. We would be flooded with data. And so do you have any insights or sense of people's urge to want to be visited by aliens?

[John Kosloski]

I don't have any brilliant insights. You know, I'm just a lowly engineer. I think that it's an exciting prospect. It's the possibility of the unknown. It's the possibility that there could be something coming next that we don't have access to now. You know, people want to look forward to something. Maybe that's what it is. But in regards to the data, you know, cell phone's an awfully small camera. And so if extraterrestrials were coming here, the chances that they're going to be within 50ft of that camera are pretty small. So whether or not we'll be able.

[Paul Mercurio]

To get that, most of Earth is not inhabited. But one thing we are missing are the alien abduction stories in the era of the smartphone.

[Guest Comedian]

I have one stop.

[John Kosloski]

Stop.

[Paul Mercurio]

Because they used to be.

[Guest Comedian]

It happened in a cornfield.

[Paul Mercurio]

Stop. So it used to be common even for a person to retell a story of getting abducted and getting their orifices probed. And today you could just film that and post it and it would go viral instantly. I mean, cat videos go viral for less. So there's none of that. And so I'm very. I'm disappointed that we haven't been visited. I want to be. I'm all for the aliens. All my people are for aliens, too. Don't get us wrong.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

Every night I'm out there with my telescope, looking up, alone in the stark silence of the night. I just waiting for a beam of light to come and just take you away. Oh, yeah.

[Guest Comedian]

And you'd go, it looks like I.

[Paul Mercurio]

Wouldn'T have a choice. It looks like I wouldn't have a choice if that's what was going on.

[Guest Comedian]

No, you might be an option. Depends on what plan you bought to go.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay, so take us out. What should we look forward to going forward?

[John Kosloski]

The public reporting mechanism should be coming out, as I mentioned, before the end of this fiscal year. And we look forward to not only receiving those reports, but then sharing more information. We're going to be building more on our transparency.

[Paul Mercurio]

Do you work with other countries as well?

[John Kosloski]

We're working towards that.

[Paul Mercurio]

Okay.

[John Kosloski]

Yeah, working towards that. We're going to have a scientific journal coming out in FYI 26 fiscal year 26. And we're going to have some.

[Paul Mercurio]

Is that. Have some name that is completely forgettable because you don't have English majors helping you name things.

[Guest Comedian]

Picture book.

[Paul Mercurio]

What? What. What's the journal going to be called?

[John Kosloski]

We'll get back to you on that.

[Guest Comedian]

Why not be judged? Why don't you? You gave me a pin. Let us name it.

[Paul Mercurio]

Yeah, call me.

[John Kosloski]

I'll let you tag it.

[Paul Mercurio]

I'm good at this.

[Guest Comedian]

Call me.

[John Kosloski]

All right, I'll let you write the first article. But that journal's gonna be coming out. We're gonna have a variety of workshops, work on engaging with the citizen scientists, as well as more academic.

[Paul Mercurio]

Beautiful. I look forward to that. Well, again, thanks for making the trip.

[John Kosloski]

Thank you. I appreciate this.

[Paul Mercurio]

All right. And good luck going forward.

[John Kosloski]

Thank you.

[Guest Comedian]

Great having you on.

[Paul Mercurio]

All right, Dude. Thanks for being here.

[Guest Comedian]

Yeah, it was so much fun.

[Paul Mercurio]

All right. All right.

[Guest Comedian]

Really understand more now, which is great.

[Paul Mercurio]

This has been startalk devoted entirely to UAPs.

[Guest Comedian]

What was that? Okay. Sorry.

[Paul Mercurio]

I'm Neil Degrasse Tyson, as always, bidding you especially now to keep looking up.

[Advertisement Speaker]

Summer's heating up and so is the action with chumba casino and 23xi racing. Whether you're trackside with Bubba, Riley and Tyler or cooling off at home, the fun never stops at Chumba Casino. The online social casino packed with free to play games like slots, blackjack and more. Jump into [e-mail] and score your free welcome bonus. 2 million free gold coins and 2 free sweeps coins. No purchase necessary. VGW group void where prohibited by law. CTNC is 21 + sponsored by Chumba Casino.

Heading back to school, head to DSW first and save up to 25% on select styles from big deal brand score. Major savings on must have shoes and accessories from Nike, Adidas, Crocs, Reebok. Hey dude. And Under Armour. You don't want to miss this one. These brands are almost never on sale. Whether you're prepping for the kids first day back or just for a busier calendar. Get up to 25% off a styles for women, men and kids at your DSW store or dsw.com for a limited time.