StarTalk Radio: True Crime & Forensic Pathology
With Patricia Cornwell & Dr. Jonathan Hayes
Host: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Co-host: Chuck Nice
Guests: Patricia Cornwell (bestselling crime novelist), Dr. Jonathan Hayes (forensic pathologist, novelist)
Date: March 13, 2026
Episode Overview
This episode explores the science, realities, and cultural fascinations of forensic pathology—the study of death, autopsy, and crime scene investigation, both as practiced in the real world and as dramatized in fiction. Neil deGrasse Tyson leads a thoughtful and lively discussion with forensic pathologist/novelist Dr. Jonathan Hayes and bestselling crime novelist Patricia Cornwell. Topics range from the technical and emotional demands of dealing with death, to the evolution of crime fiction, to the emerging intersections between forensics and space exploration, and the future impact of artificial intelligence in the field.
Key Discussions and Insights
1. The Science and Realities of Forensic Pathology
[04:30] Dr. Jonathan Hayes describes the role:
- A forensic pathologist diagnoses causes of death by examining bodies and samples, performing autopsies especially in violent, unnatural, or suspicious deaths.
- Distinguishes between general pathology and forensic subspecialty; latter focuses on legal medicine and investigation.
On commonality and variety in death:
- "A stab wound in 2021 looks like a stab wound in 1921 or 1821." — Dr. Hayes [09:03]
- Despite the similarities, he notes that every week he sees something he's “never seen before” due to odd circumstances or unique cases. [10:04]
Death investigations:
- Importance of pinpointing the exact cause of death, especially with multiple injuries, for both legal and medical clarity. [07:07]
- Autopsies are not filmed—tradition, privacy, complexity, and duration of procedures are factors. [07:37-08:00]
Emotional resilience:
- Hayes discusses balancing exposure to tragic cases with an optimistic belief in general human decency. "Human beings do terrible things...but also...people do the right thing." [13:19]
2. From Reality to Novel: The Transformation of Forensic Pathology into Fiction
Patricia Cornwell's Approach
[14:15] Cornwell on authenticity and exploration:
- The best storytelling stems from personal physical exploration and real experiences.
- Memorable metaphor: “Just show up. Never know what you might find.”
- Recounts the emotional impact of being present in the morgue, from the physical details (the coldness of bodies) to powerful moments (like finding a fortune cookie slip in a victim’s wallet) [15:39].
“If I don’t go and see those things, I have no right to write about them.” — Patricia Cornwell [17:06]
Dr. Hayes’ Perspective
- His novels are rooted in personal experience, especially post-9/11 work identifying victims in New York. [12:05]
- Forensic fiction depicts the romance and glamour of science, which attracts many new minds to the field, even if liberties are taken with technical details ([17:32-18:47]).
3. The Influence of Pop Culture on Science and Careers
[23:48] CSI and the “sexy” scientist:
- Crime shows transform forensics from a nerdy domain to pop culture “supermodel” status, making it aspirational—Dr. Hayes [26:00].
- CSI increases female participation in forensic sciences; real-world offices reflect this gender shift [24:42].
- Tyson draws a parallel to astrophysics—pop-culture depictions spark real scientific curiosity [23:34-24:42].
Impact of representation:
- When media depicts scientists as “fully fleshed out characters,” people see science as relatable and cool, not just nerdy or cold. [25:09]
4. Forensic Pathology in Outer Space
Patricia Cornwell: Fictionalizing crime in microgravity
[27:00-29:10]
- Cornwell discusses being possibly the first author to portray believable crime and forensic investigation in low Earth orbit, focusing on real physical consequences of violence (e.g., blood behavior in microgravity).
- Consulted with NASA and astronauts for realism.
“Wherever we go, we will export what we do...even in orbiting laboratories, we’re going to have things that we don’t like to think about. For me, I’m always wondering, what are you going to do about that?” — Patricia Cornwell [28:04]
Challenges and changes:
- Blood spatter, decomposition, and cues like rigor mortis would act differently in low or zero gravity. [29:10-32:17]
- Dr. Hayes: “Crime scene in zero gravity...the blood droplet spatter dynamic...is going to be different.” [30:27]
Forensic techniques in extraterrestrial environments:
- The need to adapt forensic science to new conditions—e.g., thawing frozen bodies in space, absence of decomposition on the Moon due to lack of microbes. [32:23, 59:03-59:54]
Teaching forensics remotely:
- Possibility of coaching a novice through an autopsy via communication, but nothing replaces firsthand expertise—“Autopsy means own eyes.” [37:01-37:30]
5. Process, Details, and Culture of Death Investigation
Rigor mortis explained [33:32]:
- “Rigor mortis is the stiffening of muscles that occurs after death...first in small joints, detected by testing finger joints, then jaw, then arms, etc.” [33:39-34:19]
- Timeline for rigor: sets in after ~6 hours, peaks by 12, fades by 36. [35:19]
- Fun fact: Forensic pathologists don’t typically use terms like “cadaver” or “stiff”—just “bodies” [35:47, 36:12].
Body storage logistics and myths:
- Modern morgues use walk-in coolers, not “sliding drawers”; old systems posed sanitation challenges. [37:45-38:16]
- During Miami’s 1980’s homicide surge, bodies were kept in Burger King refrigerator trucks—local outrage led to better forensic infrastructure [40:26].
- Bodies are stored on shelving systems, not meat hooks. [41:54]
Putrefaction and “leaking through the ceiling”:
- As bodies decompose, gases build and fluids (‘purge fluid’) can leak, which in apartments can seep through floors/ceilings. [43:09-43:59]
- Tyson: “So the bloating…makes the body much less dense…that would then cause the body to float if it was dead and at the bottom of [the river]. So that’s why you need cement boots, right?” — Dr. Hayes confirms. [44:07-45:09]
6. The Perfect Murder? Crime, Evidence & The CSI Effect
“Perfect murder” myth
[45:52-47:14]
- Chuck Nice: “Could you commit the perfect murder—leave no trace?”
- Hayes: “It would be possible...It’s very hard to dispose of a dead body. It’s not killing people, it’s getting rid of the body.” [47:07, 47:14]
The downside of crime fiction’s influence
- CSI effect: juries expect "higher levels of visual proof, glamorous animations, cutting-edge science" — unrealistic standards in actual courtrooms [47:42].
- Crime shows have had positive outreach (exhibits for kids, education), but sometimes blur fact and fiction [48:03].
7. The Future: AI in Forensics
Cornwell’s outlook:
- “The line between what’s real and what isn’t...is getting blurrier and blurrier.” AI will be essential for managing the complexity of modern life (e.g., air traffic control, security). [48:55]
Hayes’ take on AI in pathology:
[50:05-52:48]
- “Assists in...would be closer.” He foresees AI aiding with information management (like identifying relevant blood drops in a crime scene), but not replacing human sensory evaluation or nuanced judgment anytime soon.
- Tools like “vertopsy” (virtual autopsy via CT scan) are used in places like Switzerland but not fully replacing autopsies, especially in legally rigorous regions like New York.
- AI excels at pattern recognition in analyzable datasets; may help analyze scenes for hidden patterns (e.g., blood, shell casing distribution) [54:01-55:29].
- Risks remain: computers are biased by data and depend on human oversight. [57:27]
Comic relief:
Chuck Nice skeptically riffs on the idea of “AI comedian” and the limits of AI in art and nuance [52:55], coining “Sherlock Watson” as a theoretical forensic AI [57:03].
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
On Experience and Authenticity
- “Just show up. Never know what you might find.” — Patricia Cornwell [15:09]
- “If I don’t go and see those things, I have no right to write about them.” — Patricia Cornwell [17:06]
On Science Fiction Inspiring Careers
- “Forensics is an area where a nerd with a brain and some sharp insights is able to be even more powerful than [a muscular hero].” — Dr. Hayes [26:00]
On Human Nature and Hope
- “Human beings do terrible things to each other. But also, for the most part, when given the opportunity, people do the right thing.” — Dr. Hayes [13:19]
On the CSI Effect
- “CSI solved the crime, even though it also creates problems...juries demand higher levels of visual proof.” — Dr. Hayes [47:35-47:42]
Important Timestamps
| Timestamp | Segment | |:-------------- |:------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:30–07:34 | Explanation of forensic pathology and impact of wounds | | 10:04 | Novelty and oddity in death investigation | | 13:19 | Coping with morbidity and faith in humanity | | 14:15–17:21 | Patricia Cornwell's approach to hands-on research | | 23:48–25:47 | Pop culture’s influence on scientific careers | | 29:10–32:17 | Forensics and murder investigation in space | | 33:39–36:12 | Deep dive into rigor mortis | | 40:26–41:22 | The Burger King morgue trucks story | | 43:09–44:00 | Decomposition and “leaking through the ceiling” | | 45:52–47:14 | "Perfect murder" and problems with body disposal | | 48:55–52:48 | Perspectives on AI’s future in forensics | | 57:03–57:26 | "Sherlock Watson," the hypothetical AI detective | | 59:03–59:54 | Decomposition differences on the Moon |
Tone and Style
The conversation is engaging, richly detailed, candid, and laced with humor (often dark or gallows humor, fitting the subject). Both guests balance factual insight with the human, even emotional, realities behind their professions and storytelling. Tyson and Chuck Nice inject curiosity and comic relief, keeping the subject both enlightening and accessible to listeners.
Conclusion
This StarTalk episode provides a multidimensional look into the world of forensic pathology: its gritty reality, its translation into compelling fiction, its profound effect on popular culture, and its uncertain future amid new technology and the promise of space colonization. Both Patricia Cornwell and Dr. Jonathan Hayes offer first-hand wisdom on why truth, experience, and exploration matter—whether among the dead, in the imagination, or across the stars.