Podcast Summary: Startup Stories – Mixergy

Episode #2270: Zillow laid him off, so he started his own company

Host: Andrew Warner
Guest: John Doherty (Founder: Credo, Founder: Editor Ninja)
Date: November 22, 2024

Overview

In this engaging episode, host Andrew Warner speaks with returning guest John Doherty, an entrepreneur who turned a layoff from Zillow into two successful startups: Credo, a marketplace for digital agencies, and Editor Ninja, an on-demand editing service for marketers. The conversation explores the peaks and pitfalls of growing and pivoting businesses, the evolution of marketplace models, transitioning after a business sale, and launching Editor Ninja in the era of AI-generated content. With honest insights, John shares actionable business lessons, personal anecdotes, and reflections relevant to anyone building or scaling a service company.

Key Discussion Points

1. Life After Selling Credo (00:00–04:46)

• The Emotional Arc of Selling a Business:

  • John describes the sensation of relief and surrealism upon selling Credo, marking "seven years to the day" after being laid off from Zillow.
  • Quote (John, 02:17): “That whole next four or five days, I was just out of my body… just this huge boulder lifted off my shoulders.”
  • The sale was enough to provide a comfortable runway, though "not more than a million dollars" (03:10).

• Why Not Stay Post-Sale?

  • The market shifted; marketing grew more expensive post-pandemic, competitors multiplied, and John grew burnt out with little meaningful growth despite heavy ad spend.
  • “The economics changed… I was just so burnt out on it.” (03:27–03:37)

2. The Start of Credo – From Side Hustle to Marketplace (04:46–13:54)

• Origin Story:

  • After being laid off from Zillow just after a European vacation, John dove full-time into what was then called Hire Gun—a matchmaking service for vetting and referring SEO agencies.
  • Early growth was surprising: from $85/month (side hustle) to $2,500, then $5,000/month in weeks (06:07–06:34).

• Early Operating Model:

  • High-touch, manual vetting and intro emails; commissions only when agencies closed deals.
  • “I was just slinging it via email, like cold email… that eventually became our process and templates.” (10:03–10:35)

• Market Timing:

  • SEO was surging in popularity circa 2016, and John’s personal brand drove both consulting and referral requests.
  • “The takeaway… is say I’m available. And then if you can’t serve them, move them into this network.” (10:35–11:01, Andrew)

3. Business Models, Revenue Streams, and Pain Points (11:02–15:24)

• Experimenting with Monetization:

  • Tried one-time commissions (10% for 3mo), lead subscriptions, monthly retainers, and even acted as an escrow/payment intermediary (12:31).
  • Pandemic forced a pivot away from escrow to a more predictable agency subscription model, charging agencies recurring fees plus commissions.

• Scaling Dilemmas:

  • John admits he actively resisted becoming an SEO agency, despite being well-positioned, because he wanted to build technology and processes around the business—not just be the “expert delivering the work.”
  • “It’s hard for any business to scale when… the person starting it is a subject matter expert in that area.” (13:54–14:51)

4. The Marketplace vs. Service Dilemma (15:24–18:28)

• Challenges of Building a Marketplace:

  • “Marketplaces are fricking hard… you just have to go so niche to get something like this off the ground.” (16:50–17:36, John)
  • Competing directly with Upwork and Fiverr proved unattractive; nuanced, high-touch matchmaking = not easily scalable.

• Why Credo Wasn’t a Pure Marketplace:

  • The model drifted toward high-touch curation and support, resembling more a managed service than a self-serve marketplace.
  • “I don’t see a lot of marketplaces for services… kind of disappointing because I like that model better.” (17:40, Andrew)

5. The Pandemic: Escrow Services, Pivots & Lost Opportunities (18:28–25:26)

• Pandemic Rollercoaster:

  • Early 2020 saw the escrow service approach take off, holding up to $125k/month in transaction volume. Agencies’ close rates spiked due to Credo’s curation.
  • Pandemic hit: Lead volume collapsed, sparked fear-fueled pivot.
  • “If we had held on for about two more months, the escrow service would have taken off for the next few years... we would have been, you know, holding millions… and getting 15%.” (21:59–22:14)

• Lesson Learned:

  • “It’s really hard to say things suck, but we are still gonna double down… It almost feels like you’re being opportunistic when people are suffering.” (24:34, Andrew)
  • John realized later that boldness amid crisis is rewarded.

6. Launching Editor Ninja & Riding the AI Wave (25:26–38:06)

• Genesis of Editor Ninja:

  • Born mid-2020 during the pandemic, inspired by a surge in available content marketers/editors.
  • Ran as a side project until end of 2021; even with minimal effort, it did $1,000/year (29:45–31:45).

• The Subscription Model Advantage:

  • Moved to a subscription model (à la Design Pickle/Video Husky), focusing on agencies producing high volumes of content.
  • “It only takes marginally more effort to close a $5,000/mo retainer than a $500/mo retainer—and they stay longer.” (37:29–37:44)

• AI Impact and Pivot:

  • Post-sale of Credo, ChatGPT’s launch raised existential questions. John doubled down, branding Editor Ninja as "AI content friendly."
  • Quote (John, 27:16): “AI content is going to need human editing and a human touch before it's ready to publish and will rank long term.”
  • First or second editing service to explicitly serve AI-generated content (Jan 2023).

7. Growing Editor Ninja: Customers, Marketing, and Relationships (38:06–50:13)

• Sales Tactics:

  • Month-to-month flexibility, scaling pricing models, and starting customers on lower tiers for trust and expansion (38:06–40:13).
  • Quote (John, 39:26): “Let’s start you on the bottom level… then as we have capacity to scale you up, we can send you more leads.”

• Customer Acquisition:

  • SEO brings "five figures a month" in organic traffic, but best leads/referrals come from relationships, LinkedIn, and staying in touch with industry contacts.
  • “It’s the old, like, ask for advice and get a customer. Ask for a customer and get advice or get ghosted.” (41:14–41:41)

• Social Media, Networking, and In-Person Events:

  • Building human connections, intentionally attending niche conferences (Content Hacker Live @ SXSW), and using LinkedIn to spark sales and referrals.
  • “Good people also know good people… just keeping up with good people, good things happen.” (43:01–43:21)

8. Editor Ninja Today: The Model, Revenue, and Differentiators (47:42–50:13)

• AI vs. Human Editing:

  • Some confusion among clients; Editor Ninja is clear they provide “real human editing for AI-generated content,” not automated edits.
  • Quote (John, 47:55): “We do human editing for AI content. I don’t want people to think we’re just running it through an AI tool.”

• Financials and Operations:

  • $40k+ monthly revenue; 70% margin after paying contractors/delivery ops.
  • Differentiators: Google Docs-based workflow, SEO feedback as an add-on (“here’s the URL I’d use, here’s the title tag”), subscription flexibility.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “This is the most relaxed I’ve ever seen you since we’ve been together” — John's wife on the emotional relief after Credo’s sale (02:00)

• “It’s hard for any business to scale when the person starting it is a subject matter expert in that area.” (14:12)

• “Marketplaces are fricking hard, man. They’re so hard.” (16:50)

• “Ask for advice and get a customer. Ask for a customer and get advice—or get ghosted.” (41:41)

• “Good people know good people. Just keeping up with good people—good things happen.” (43:01)

• “Let’s start you on the bottom level… give us feedback, then integrate us more into your systems.” (39:26)

• “I want to build the best service on the internet for marketing agencies that are producing content at scale.” (41:21)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |:-------------:|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:36–03:03 | Emotional moment after Credo sale; symbolic timing | | 06:07–06:34 | Side hustle growth after layoff | | 10:35–11:01 | Turning consulting overflow into referrals/business model | | 13:10–15:24 | Discussing why John didn’t build an SEO agency | | 18:28–19:14 | Credo’s pandemic lead volume collapse and recovery | | 21:59–22:14 | The missed “multi-million a month in escrow” opportunity | | 27:16–28:05 | Positioning Editor Ninja for the AI content era | | 38:06–40:13 | Scaling Editor Ninja’s pricing and customer journey | | 41:14–41:41 | “Ask for advice and get a customer…” sales approach | | 43:01–43:21 | Relationship-building as a business growth superpower | | 46:10–47:36 | LinkedIn content leading directly to new sales | | 47:42–48:42 | Clarifying Editor Ninja’s “human editing for AI content” | | 48:46–48:58 | Editor Ninja’s 70% net after costs | | 49:36–50:13 | The value and ease of Editor Ninja’s SEO feedback add-on |

Episode Takeaways

• Burnout and Market Realities: Know when to pivot or sell—don’t force stalled growth.
• Subscription vs. One-Off Models: Predictable revenue sustains, but needs careful onboarding for buyer hesitation.
• Relationships Outperform SEO: For high-ticket B2B services, warm intros and industry presence beat cold traffic.
• Adapting to Macro Shocks: Resilience and boldness during crises can unlock the biggest gains—or missed chances.
• AI’s Double-Edged Sword: What threatens a business can also become its next growth engine if embraced with fresh positioning.

Connect with the Guest

• Website: editorninja.com
• Social: @dohertyjf (most platforms)
• John is active on LinkedIn and Twitter, sharing both business insights and personal updates.

Sponsor Mention

• Gusto (Payroll/HR platform): John uses Gusto to pay all Editor Ninja contractors globally, praising their ease of use and support (28:05–28:33).

For entrepreneurs building or scaling service-oriented businesses, this episode offers hard-earned lessons in product-market fit, weathering market shocks, operationalizing referrals/networks—and keeping your energy pointed toward what’s next.