#2273 What happened to our partnership?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Startup Stories - Mixergy

Episode #2273: "What happened to our partnership?"

Date: March 5, 2025 Host: Andrew Warner
Guest: Jesse Puji, Founder of Gateway X

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the evolution and recent growing pains of Andrew Warner and Jesse Puji’s business partnership, specifically within their joint project, Bootstrapped Giants. Andrew and Jesse have collaborated for nearly a year, blending their entrepreneurial strengths and learning about themselves and each other along the way. The episode is a candid conversation about conflict, self-discovery, leadership, and operating in one's "zone of genius" while working in a startup environment. The two also explore broader themes, such as emotional dynamics in business, operational strategies, embracing new technologies (AI), and investing philosophies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Evolution of Their Partnership (00:00 - 02:51)

• Andrew reflects: Their relationship evolved from “buddy-buddy” to excited collaborators, to frustration around differences in working styles and expectations.

  • "And it went from buddy buddy to World of Possibilities to this. I don't know. How would you describe where it is right now?" (01:00)

• Jesse observes: Partnerships (and businesses) have different “arcs and seasons” and it’s natural for tensions to arise as founders grow and adapt.

  • Quote: "Every business has... different arcs and seasons... letting them be the best versions of themselves, not, like, a shitty version of me or my methods." (01:11)

Embracing the "Zone of Genius" (02:25 - 08:27)

• Self-Awareness Challenges:

  • Andrew struggles with how much to adapt to others’ approaches versus amplifying his own strengths.
  • Jesse emphasizes recognizing and committing to one’s “zone of genius”—the area where energy and capability naturally align.
  • Quote, Jesse: "What do you feel most energized and excited about?...Once you're clear about that and you're willing to stay inside of it...that’s been the hardest thing for me." (02:51)

• Practical Application:

  • Jesse asks Andrew to list what energizes and drains him.
  • Andrew identifies that he loves customer discovery and persuading people to try new things, but dislikes writing first drafts and often forces himself to do it anyway.
  • Quote, Andrew: "The only reason that I can't tell you infinite number of times is because I just broke." (06:32)
  • Jesse pushes Andrew to commit to not doing draining tasks, noting the resistance comes from stories they tell themselves (e.g., not trusting others).

Letting Go, Power Dynamics, and ‘Heroing’ (09:00 - 15:22)

• Letting Others Step Up:

  • Jesse shares his own challenge resisting the urge to micromanage or “grab the steering wheel,” and stresses the value of 100% responsibility in relationships.

• Power & Responsibility:

  • They discuss how leaders need to be aware of power dynamics and create genuine spaces for people to say “no.”
  • Quote, Jesse: "Ask for your 100%. 100% of the time, be willing to hear no and negotiate for a win win. And I think that's the best formula version I've heard of it." (13:10)

• The Downside of 'Heroing':

  • Andrew admits he sometimes takes on too much to feel strong, which can be patronizing and prevents others from growing.
  • Quote, Jesse: "When you take that posture, you're putting them beneath you." (14:46)
  • Quote, Andrew: "Not only do I do that, sometimes I do that intentionally as a way of building myself up." (14:54)

Understanding (and Committing To) One’s Strengths (18:38 - 22:10)

• Genius is Often Invisible:

  • Jesse explains that genius can be like water to a fish—not even noticed by the person who possesses it.
  • He encourages exercises: seeking feedback from others about when they've seen you most energized.

• Observations:

  • Jesse highlights Andrew's curiosity and talent for asking the probing questions no one else does, connecting and facilitating in ways others overlook.
  • Quote, Jesse: "There's something about you, Andrew, around information and content that you have a genius around..." (18:38)

Operational Overload & Designing Better Workflow (20:10 - 24:26)

• Jesse's New Work Structure:

  • Jesse splits his work week to focus on different businesses each day to reduce context-switching, but the days still feel overwhelming due to crammed schedules.

• Accepting Current Reality:

  • He acknowledges he’s still too operationally involved and needs to phase towards more strategic, “genius zone” involvement, but also recognizes the value of accepting the present.
  • Quote, Jesse: "I think I'm still pretty heavily operationally involved in all the businesses. And I think that's probably more zone of excellence stuff." (22:42)

Rethinking Company-Building: Acquisition vs. Starting from Scratch (24:26 - 29:54)

• Jesse Considers M&A:

  • After years of co-founding businesses, Jesse is drawn more to acquiring businesses that already have momentum but are “stuck,” offering greater leverage and less draining early-stage slog.
  • Quote, Jesse: "The starting a new business every year... the slog of the freaking first year of every business every year, which I think I was super hyped about for a minute, and now I'm like... just not as excited." (24:57)

• Wanting a ‘Big Swing’:

  • Jesse is interested in trying larger, riskier endeavors, possibly acquiring companies in the $50 million range: “It's like a big swing. It's like no go do go. Like go go try something like that.” (28:07)

AI & Early Adoption in Business (29:54 - 35:15)

• AI’s Transformative Potential:

  • Jesse compares the current AI moment to early Facebook ads—a technology initially overlooked, then rapidly transformative.
  • Quote, Jesse: "The level of advancement is unlike I think anything we've ever seen since maybe the mobile phone or the Internet... The hype is absurd..." (30:13)

• Experimentation Over Research:

  • Jesse prefers hands-on experimentation over research or waiting for clear use cases: “I don't want to talk to anybody about this AI stuff. I want to like go do it and I want to see what happens.” (35:13)

Personal Wealth, Investing, and Spiritual Growth (35:43 - 44:25)

• Jesse’s Investment Approach:

  • Portfolio: ~50% index funds, 25% private equity/credit, 25% real estate funds.
  • Moving away from angel investing and stock picking, favoring simplicity and predictability over chasing returns.
  • Quote, Jesse: "Even if this figure thing pays... I got attracted to. Because I like entrepreneurship and I want to work with entrepreneurs... And then, like, you're losing money and you're not really involved..." (36:52)

• What to Do With Wealth:

  • Struggles with what to do with substantial wealth (“I don't know what to do with the 10, what am I going to do with the 50?”)
  • Grappling with charity, inheritance, and personal enjoyment.

• Spiritual Journey:

  • Jesse discusses moving from a fear-driven, scarcity mindset to greater abundance and comfort with spending—aligning with a broader “spiritual journey.”
  • Quote, Jesse: "Shifting from fear and scarcity around money to, to like abundance and, and love and like openness like that's, that's the shift that's actually made me enjoy money, not the money itself." (40:55)

Favorite Activities & Building Deeper Connections (45:03 - End)

• Podcast as a Relationship Tool:

  • Andrew suggests that deep, candid conversational podcasts might be a way to strengthen both business and personal relationships.
  • Quote, Andrew: "This to me is like, if you talk about... this is one of my favorite things to do, to just have conversations like this. And I do feel like our relationship needed this." (45:06)

• Jesse on Andrew's Interview Style:

  • Jesse observes Andrew’s gift for quickly going deep in conversations, a trait Andrew sometimes overlooks in himself.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Zones of Genius

• "It's constantly a question of, how do you take those, absorb the stuff, but make it your own." — Jesse (01:11)
• "You can know it now. You literally know it... but you're not willing to commit to it." — Jesse (07:00)

On Leadership & Responsibility

• "Ask for your 100%. 100% of the time, be willing to hear no and negotiate for a win win." — Jesse (13:10)
• "When you take that posture [of a hero], you're putting them beneath you." — Jesse (14:46)

On Self-Worth and Motivation

• "Not only do I need to know that, have people tell me that what I've done is great. It has to be absolutely, irrefutably great." — Andrew (15:38)

On Experimentation & Company-Building

• "I am getting excited for maybe the next season here to be more about M&A and at least to try it. Like it might not work but, but I'm open to trying it." — Jesse (28:03)

On AI Opportunities

• "The difference between the DFS [horizon] versus the current reality is so far away that there's going to be massive opportunities now if we, we're all like relatively tech forward... we can't figure it out. Think about these private equity owned businesses... there's going to be massive opportunity." — Jesse (31:34)

On Spiritual and Financial Growth

• "Shifting from fear and scarcity around money to, to like abundance and, and love and like openness like that's, that's the shift that's actually made me enjoy money, not the money itself." — Jesse (40:55)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Partnership Evolution: 00:00 – 02:51
• Zone of Genius & Self-Reflection: 02:51 – 08:27
• Power Dynamics & Heroing: 09:00 – 15:22
• Exercises to Discover Strengths: 18:38 – 22:10
• Operational Overload & Structuring Work: 20:10 – 24:26
• M&A versus Startups: 24:26 – 29:54
• AI in Business: 29:54 – 35:15
• Investment Strategies & Wealth: 35:43 – 44:25
• Building Connections & Podcasting: 45:03 – end

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is warm, honest, and sometimes raw—a rare behind-the-scenes look at two seasoned entrepreneurs wrestling with personal dynamics, ambition, leadership, and self-actualization. Listeners will gain insights not just into startup operations, but also personal growth, letting go of old patterns, harnessing one’s unique strengths, and how even successful founders need to consciously evolve their own mindsets and workflows.

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For listeners: If you crave unfiltered founder psychology, real-talk about what makes a modern entrepreneurial partnership “tick” (or stall), and actionable frameworks for both inner work and business strategy, this episode is a can’t-miss.

Transcript

[A]

Hey there, freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I'm the founder of Mixergy, where I interview entrepreneurs about how they built their businesses. And joining me is Jesse Puji, the founder of Gateway X, the venture studio that I partnered with to build, well, a new company called Bootstrapped Giants, where we support bootstrappers who have this big ambition. I wanted to find out how he was thinking about his business and frankly, just chat. Here goes. All right, Jesse, We've been working together now for almost a year, and our relationship, I feel, has changed a lot. And in the last year, I feel before we were working together, there was a lot of, like, buddy, buddy text messages, and you're killer at that. I keep trying to do that, and it's not fully me, but I'm getting closer. Then we were in, like, building Infinite possibility land together, and that was really exciting. And then it got to this, why the fuck is Andrew not doing this and me going, why is Jesse constantly coming up with different ideas all the time?

[B]

And.

[A]

And it went from buddy buddy to World of Possibilities to this. I don't know. I don't. How would you describe where it is right now?

[B]

You know, I think every business has. And every relationship has different arcs and seasons. Right? So I think that's where I start with it, which is like, that's somewhat. It's not totally abnormal. I think that it's been interesting from my vantage point to watch you kind of sort of the creative genius version of you versus the businessman version of you. They're pretty different. Um, and. And I think that, like, from my vantage point, it was like, oh, there was this creative genius who just, like, saw something in me. And part of the reason I wanted to start doing this podcast with you is like, we can actually get out and get back to that. Get back to the things that make us, make you great, make us great together and versus the, you know, I think the side of the business stuff is like, oh, you're running a business, and, like, you want to run the business. Like, I would run the business, but that's. You're not me, so you're not going to do that. So it's going to feel weird to you all the time, and it's never going to feel great. And, like, I think a big part of this whole thing working well for me with everybody is like, letting them be the best versions of themselves, not, like a shitty version of me or my methods. And so it's constantly, like, a question of, how do you take those, absorb the stuff, but make it your own. And I think that's like a. There's a lesson there, I think, for anybody building a.

[A]

That's been a big wrestling match for me. Like, how much do I amplify who I am and how much do I take a step back and say no? Jesse's got a different approach here that I'm trying to learn from. Nak has a different approach that I'm trying to learn from. Rachel has a different approach. How the. How do you integrate. How much do you integrate and how do you just amplify the part that's. That's mine? How do I amplify the part that's mine? That's been challenging.

[B]

Yeah. I think it starts with knowing what your zone of genius is. And it's like in some ways you can say that's a difficult thing to figure out. In other ways, it's like, well, what do you feel most energized and excited about? What do people compliment you on the most? What, like, you know, in your case, I think it's pretty obvious. It's like you're amazing at directly supporting and networking, getting to knowing entrepreneurs and helping people do that. I think you're amazing. You have a great taste and content eye and perspective. You're very curious. Like, like you've got all these things. And even if you look at your history, your career and all that, like, it also becomes very obvious. And I think once you're clear about that and you're willing, but you know it and you're willing to stay inside of it, like the second part, the harder. That's been the hardest thing for me. I, like, learned my zone of genius at Ambush, but I wasn't actually willing to commit to my zone of genius until I started Gateway X.

[A]

What was your zone of genius and what could you not? Like what, what did you do outside of it that was hard to break?

[B]

Like, I knew I loved coaching and teaching people. I knew I like starting new things and kind of the, like the entrepreneur energy. I knew I liked learning new things or, and, and, and building relationships and developing relationships. But when we were at Ambush, like, we tried, we, we tried investing in startups off of our balance sheet. We bought a company. We, we, we. We launched an. Something called Ampush X. Believe it or not, it might sound familiar because I was like, oh, we're going to go start a business. And, and so I knew what I wanted to do. Like, it was very clear to me what my genius was. But then I was still the CEO of the company. And so Ambush X went nowhere because it was like a weekly meeting with me and two employees who were not staffed on any clients. So that, like, oh, let's go. Let's go start a new business idea. And it just went nowhere because I wasn't engaged at the level I needed to be because I would, like, every time a client called, I would. I would run away. And, you know, when I, like, left as CEO, Rick actually, he gave me sort of his feedback, which was, right, as it always is, which is like. He's like, no, you should say a CEO. Like, make John the GM of Ambush and get it out, get it off your plate so you can go do whatever it is you want to do, but don't, you know, don't fully give that up. And in my case, I just sort of said, okay, I'm out. Like, it's not working. I'm out. I'm going to go start something brand new. But willingness to actually stay in your zone of genius, because when something goes wrong somewhere, when a client's not happy, when something's breaking, when you know. You know this because you. You see that issue. And so the thing I see in you is you kind of know your genius, but you're not willing to commit to it. And usually you're not. People aren't willing to commit to it because they don't trust. They don't trust my genius.

[A]

And I also feel like I'm the person who does the. Everything. I. I have to go and do every part of it and show people that I'm a part of it. And partially it's because I love being with people like, you know, we've got.

[B]

But let's start with something like, what are the. What's the things? What are two or three things? We don't need to nail it perfectly. What are two or three things that, you know, you're really good at that also energize you?

[A]

I got two. One is, I do love this. What's your problem? Customer discovery. Let's talk through and iterate it together. And the other one is, how do I bring people together, persuade them to try this new thing? You know, they're kind of similar, but those are. Those are the big ones.

[B]

And what are things that, you know, actually you're not actually that good at and they de energize you.

[A]

Writing a first draft of anything, even though I feel like, all right, I know what to say, and I should just be. I could tell a writer, this is what the first draft should be like. And then I go No, I should just go do it because now it's taking too long to even explain to them. That's one example for sure.

[B]

So how many times have you done that in the last year to date?

[A]

The only reason that I can't tell you infinite number of times is because I just broke. I couldn't keep. Keep sitting and looking at that.

[B]

But you've done it a lot. You've probably spent 20, 30 hours of your year doing that.

[A]

That's fair.

[B]

So are you willing to just commit to not doing that?

[A]

You know, when you say that, I feel like such an irresponsible prick. Why can't you just sit down and type out what you want to do or what you want to say? Why does Jamie have to write the first ver?

[B]

But herein lies. Herein lies the issue with why it's so hard to commit to. You can know it now. You literally know it. And we got very specific and tactical. You know, you like bringing people in and doing things, but you're not. And so the whole framework is like, you're at 75, 80% of your time is in your genius, and you're clearly not there. You're a 30%. So not only are you less effective, but you're also more burnt out. And what keeps you there, what keeps everybody there is the stories. And it's scary. Like, when I started Gateway X, like, the first time I saw Adrian doing something weird, I wanted to grab the steering wheel from her and go, no, no, no, no. Go here, right? Or, like, one extreme version is grab a steering wheel from her. Another version is, like, yell at her, tell her what to do. And. And, like, none of those are right, because those aren't. Those just aren't. Like, they would have led me down this other path. Right. And. And I think it was hard. It still is hard sometimes to commit into my zone of genius and be willing to go, no, I'm not gonna, like, go run the staff meeting for growth assistant. I'm not going to go pitch the client on the upsell. Those are. Those are two things that I would pull in my zone of excellence, by the way, like, pitching clients for sure. Zone of excellence, like, does, you know, doesn't necessarily energize me. Sometimes it does, but. But doesn't often energize me. But I'm amazing at it. And so I think that it's a pretty high bar, and it's a pretty. In some ways, I think most people just kind of, like, roll their eyes at it being unrealistic. I think it's one of the most life changing things that I've done for myself.

[A]

I do feel it's like it's understanding and persuading is probably it. Like in one moment, it's the understanding through customer development. What's the problem that they can't solve? How would they want help solving it? That's customer development. The other one for me is persuading. Like, I wanted to have this dinner tonight here. I wanted to have the speakers of the conference to come over to my house. And I knew that there's like a path to doing it. Understanding to persuading. Those are the two. What would you say?

[B]

Yeah, there's something else though.

[A]

Yeah, there's something you're seeing in myself.

[B]

Yeah, I mean there's. Have you done, done the genius exercises?

[A]

No, I'm afraid of doing one with Dave. Cash in by going, okay, help me plan. And I got updates for you on that. Help me deal with this other stuff and also help me deal with zone of genius. So that's why I put him to work.

[B]

I mean, that's his job. I'm like his Chirag. I like, I get everything I can out of him.

[A]

You know, you are really good at that. So I keep telling Chirag, here's what I'm watching that Jesse does. Like, for example, I always thought you have a coach like Dave Cashin working with me. But the thing is, I have an hour with him every two weeks. That's the limit of what we paid for. That's the limit of what we have. And you said, go text him in the middle of the week about this thing. And then you said, if you're having an issue, just message him right now. I go, but text. He goes, it's too much. And you said, he's an adult. He'll tell you if it's too much. I actually have a question for you about that. I don't know if now's the right.

[B]

Time, but yeah, go for it.

[A]

Okay. You will say, ask this person to do the thing. They're an adult, they'll tell you no. I get that. And I do think I need to ask more. But I wonder if you realize the power that you have over people and their inability to say no to you, and maybe that's on them, that they should learn. And. But if you're asking, say a writer to also edit something else, or video producers also, they won't say no to you the way they might say even to their mom. No, they feel like they want to please you. And that's. What do you think?

[B]

Yeah, I think. I mean, look, I think it's important there's two pieces to this, right? One is, like this concept, I think, from conscious leadership around 100% responsibility, right? Which is like, when there's between two people, there's 200% of responsibility, and we should each take our 100%. And if I. If I worry about asking you for something, then I'm taking more than my hundred percent in our relationship versus you being independent and me going, hey, Andrew, will you do this? And you go, no, I can't do that right now. I can do it tomorrow, or whatever that trend. So I think. I think practicing that as a general frame is really valuable in every relationship, even in your marriage. Like, the concept, you know, the lingo that people use is. Is heroing someone, right? If I ask my wife, can you wake up in the morning and cook me breakfast and take care of the baby and drop the kids off? And she's like, well, he's tired. I'm gonna hero him. Like, I'm gonna do that even though I don't want to do that. That's called heroing. And when you hear of someone you're taking more than 100 responsibility for. For, like your relationship dynamics. And what happens. What do you think happens when you do that with someone?

[A]

I think if I'm heroing someone, I. There's resentment that just.

[B]

You build resentment and then you break the person. That's 100 what happens, right? And. And so it's not like it's. It's not like it's costless. Like, yes, in the moment, it's easy to hero some situation, right. The opposite of heroing is like either blaming someone or you're pulling back and being the victim and saying, like, I'm not going to. I'm not going to do my part here. I'm going to. I'm going to run away from this. And that's kind of this whole concept of 100% responsibility on both sides. So I think I like to stand for the concept of 100% responsibility, which is. Which is, yes, I can ask for anything I want, and you can also tell me yes, no, maybe, or negotiate it back. And so some of it is just teaching people that and getting to know it, I think. And with that said, I think that, you know, you do have to be mindful of power dynamics for sure. Right? And I think, like, power dynamics in for a junior employee versus whatever, like, calling it out. It's okay to say no here And I want to ask you for what I want. So the idea behind it is to create the space, but not like a. You know, sometimes people call it negotiating against yourself. If you already start to go and say, well, I don't want to put pressure on them today, so let me wait till tomorrow to ask them. And you're. All of a sudden, you're playing all these games that are very. Actually energetically draining if you think about it, because you're like, well, I don't ask that person now. Let me ask them tomorrow. And this person this. And. And you kind of just go, hey, you can say no to this. And I want to ask for my 100%. Dave sent me this thing one time that was like, ask for your 100%. 100% of the time, be willing to hear no and negotiate for a win win. And I think that's the best formula version I've heard of it. Always ask for 100 of the time. You ask for your 100, but you're also willing to hear no, and then you're. And then both parties are willing to negotiate for. And if you think about where it breaks down at one of those things, either you don't ask for your 100%. That's one way it breaks down. You don't do it 100 of the time. So you only do it some of the time. Right. You're not willing to hear no. Or the. Or both parties are not willing to actually have the conversation around a win win. Right. And if you of all four of those things are true for both people all the time, it's an incredibly, like, healthy and empowering relationship. And I think it's important to train people. And the best way that I've done that, by the way, as a leader, is like, I let people say no to me, and I'm like, oh, I'm so glad you said okay, but let's find the win win. Like, what's okay, you can't get it done today, let's get it done tomorrow. Or like, can you stop doing that? Other. I think once you get people trained in that way of being, it's like, highly addictive.

[A]

I like that you can say no to me, but I'll ask you for the 100%. I do think that makes it easier for me to ask for things because I do struggle with that, because I feel like I want to protect people. And part of protecting people is protecting them against imaginary problems that they don't even tell me they have. But I'm assuming that they don't want to take on this extra responsibility. And sometimes it's the opposite. They do want more.

[B]

But here's a. Here's a. Here's one that might stun you, Andrew, is you're taking on the hero position. Can you see that?

[A]

I do that all the time.

[B]

What is that? But what does that mean? You think about the other person, that.

[A]

They need my protection.

[B]

Because if you're on the hero spot, where. Where can they be correct?

[A]

You know, I do.

[B]

You're treating someone like a victim. You're literally saying someone is less than you. When you take that posture, you're putting them beneath you.

[A]

Not only do I do that, sometimes I do that intentionally as a way of building myself up. Like, I'm going to do this because now I'm seeing how strong I am, and it's. It's little things. Like, I'm going to show how strong I am at doing this work and that maybe you need to get done sometimes. It's. I'm going to show you how impressive I am that I can now drink you and still show up the next morning to go take care of the baby. And you're not even checking on what I'm doing with the baby. You don't even know that I have a baby. But in my head, it's like the way I build myself up.

[B]

Yeah. And that sounds consistent with the pattern. And you're. You're a three in the Enneagram. You're like, you have some deep fear that you're not enough or that you have to keep proving yourself. And so these are all these various ways that you. That you keep trying to. To make yourself better than everybody else.

[A]

Yeah, I do. Yeah. There was when we were doing that 8, 3. 3 meeting with other founders, and there was another one who was a three. And I said, not only do I need to know that, have people tell me that what I've done is great. It has to be absolutely, irrefutably great. And I need, like, evidence. And then I could go, okay, this is good. Which is why running is good. Because I could finish a marathon and know, okay, I hit this number and I'm good. But if you just say, hey, great work, Andrew. I like this article. I'm like, did you. How do I know that it's really right? Where's the metric? Where's the outside proof? Where's the rigor? By the way, I'm drinking a shake now. I've been, you know, I've been working on how much I'm Eating. How the hell do you not eat all day? Especially with the stressful work that you have and everyone else dumping their problems on you? The shake is not even doing it for me.

[B]

I'm not. I'm not. I've still another two or three hours till I have my shake.

[A]

Yeah. Don't you feel like you get stressed? So the worst thing about working from home is, is there's always food around. Though. I remember the Gateway X office also had my, like, number one snacks, which is like nuts and seeds, that kind of a thing. How do you. How do you go to whatever. What are we now, 1230 without eating? Especially when other people are dumping their stress on your head?

[B]

I go till 2 or 3, I think. As long as I stay busy, I think on these calls or whatever, Like, I don't really. I find the easiest thing for. Honestly, once I start eating, I find it hard to not keep eating during a window. But as long as I'm not eating a lot of liquid coffee and water, I feel like I can. I can really block it. And then I can. And then I can start eating.

[A]

Yeah, there's something about having a no in my head. I know I'm not eating until noon, so it's not a question anymore.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I think that works in a lot of things.

[A]

All right, so you were saying that you see the genius that I'm not noticing. How. How do I get to notice this?

[B]

I mean, there's a couple exercises, right? One is, there's. There's this exercise the CLG people have, which is just email the 20 people in and ask them, like, when have you seen me most energized? What do you think I'm best at? And by the way, they say that genius is like asking a fish if they're a good swimmer. They don't even say. They say, what's water? I don't even know what water is. So I don't even know what you mean by the question. Like, when you tell me that I'm so good at riffing off of people and giving them feedback, like, it just. It's so natural to me that I don't even realize I'm doing something like that. And so you. I think getting other people to reflect it back to you is a really powerful way to figure out what your genius is. There's a couple other exercises of, like, reflecting on times you worked your best. There's the energy audit, which, you know, you look at when. When you've been energized versus not.

[A]

I did do that actually before we were working together, you gave that to me and now I want to go find that notion doc where it. Basically what I was doing was keeping track, keeping this notion doc on my computer all day. And anything I did, I would mark what I was doing and then write whether it gave me a reduced energy.

[B]

Well, there's something about you, Andrew, around information and content that you have a genius around. Like you can. It's. Some of it's. You have this unique curiosity where you constantly ask questions or you, you, you sort of probe and ask these questions. Like, here's a interesting example. We had that very private conversation with Rick Elias where he shared a really private thing about himself and, and was like, you know, and he wasn't going to do that. He just said, I had a tough, I had a tough couple of years. And everyone was like, okay. And I really satisfied. And you were like, oh, give me a real example. And then, and then the example he shared, we were all in tears. Right. It floored all of us. But like, so there's something. And I think the same thing with me. You've done that a lot of times. Like, I think the whole sales accelerator was a function and many, much of what Bootstrap Giants is, is you, you doing that. You found these situations where you've been like, um, well, hold on, wait, how did you get that meeting? How did you meet supercell? Like, what was that client? And, and there's something that you're really naturally good at, digging in that I think is part of then. And then you find an angle or you find the unlike, you then connect it with people who need it the most. And I think there's an element of that too. But yeah, I think that, I think you shouldn't undervalue your taste and your ability to kind of like see something content wise or information wise other people don't see.

[A]

Yeah, I see what you mean. Do you feel like you're. I know you took this big change in your life this year where each business was going to get one day. I know that your calendar was chaotic. Do you feel like this is reducing the chaos and allowing you to live in your zone of genius?

[B]

That's a good question. What. So I think the context switching has been helpful to not have to go.

[A]

From ox one day on the same day, ox bootstrap in the morning and.

[B]

Then bootstrap giants in the afternoon. And then. And I think the clarity for everyone else has also been super helpful of just like if you work on aux, you're Like Jesse's available Tuesday. This is a great topic to talk about because it's very present for me right now. I think what it has also led to is that like everyone crams everything into this these days. And, and then my days end up these three. The Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday end up feeling like crazy for me. Um, and if I'm a little off energy wise or I'm not fully there present, like I, it definitely just drains me by the end of it. Um, and then I think what's happened with Thursday and Fridays is, you know, Friday has become this like marathon networking or like all the other calls basically get dumped into that day. But then, you know, it just ends up with a situation where my calendar is, is completely packed. And it's not even that I like want to get any work done. You know, I don't like doing work. Like that's not a thing I like to do. But it's, it's honestly like I like I'm, I'm the more. More I'm growing in my spiritual journey, my personal journey. Like type 7. One of the things about the Enneagram type 7 is they like to fill their calendar with things. Cuz if they have free time, they literally feel anxious. So they're like, it's a way they avoid feeling. And now that I'm like more in touch with my feelings than I ever have been, I actually find the, that I don't like it as much. I just want spaciousness. Like I liter. Want an hour where nothing is booked, where I can, I can putz around and like not do anything or pick up something that I haven't done in a minute or read like another thing I realize is like, like listen to podcasts or read, read stuff. Like I don't, I don't have any time in my day for that stuff. And that stuff can be really valuable and important. So it's not. I think I'm like, it's. It's better in some ways, but it's not fully, it's not fully where I'd like it to be. I don't think.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like you're not quite where you need to be. Where I think your genius is in coming in and doing what you did this morning for our members where they had this problem and you came in with this light bulb solution for them and that's where you're great. And I feel like instead we end up putting you into. Look at these slide sessions and why don't you give this kind of feedback on this thing Saying the thing you've said 12 times before.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, the way I would describe it at a high level is I think I'm still pretty heavily operationally involved in all the businesses. And I think that's probably not. That's probably more zone of excellence stuff. And I think, I think some of it is. I'm also. The flip of it, by the way, is like, you know, this from the Dave work, like, I can resist the reality of where we are now. I can change the reality of where we are now or my willingness to participate. And I could say, guys, never mind, I'm not going to do this. I'm. I'm the chairman. You know, you get, you all get, you get two hours a week with me each and talk about your problems and I'll help you build a business. That's all I do. That's one way to solve it, which I could do. The other flip of it is like, no, that's. This is like where we are right now as, as. Like, this is where the thing is right now and accept where it is and show up with 100% against it. And I think like, when I look across the businesses like, you know, Carolyn just started doing marketing for Growth Assistant. You know, they, they just finished kind of a one big cycle of iteration. She's figured out what channel she want to prioritize. She's doubling down on those. Like, hopefully within the next few months there's going to be more of like a emotion there that's. That's going right. So there's certain things that Growth Assistant that's like they're operationally involved. AUX right now is. I'm engaged with the case teams. I'm helping Kasey recruit some senior people. Those are pretty operational things. But like, again, they should create more scale, like some, more like independence of that business. And bg, we're, you know, we're figuring out various things we're still making. So I think part of it is also just accepting where I am right now in all of this and like, it being like it's going to be part of the journey of getting it to the point where I can be that zoomed out, I believe, and holding myself accountable to not falling into the trap of next quarter, signing up for more operational stuff.

[A]

Do you think that maybe instead of launching these companies within Gateway X, it's better for you to just buy companies that have some momentum but don't have. But they're blocked, they've hit some plateau.

[B]

Yeah. Have we talked about that?

[A]

No, but I'm seeing talked about that this is chaotic, and this is the messy part of entrepreneurship, and I can see that you're good and excited about it, and it's much more. Let's make it up. Which is creatively fun, but it's also draining in little things.

[B]

Yeah, it's fun. It's funny. We. I thought we. I mean, we've talked about that a little bit. Maybe, like, you know, we decided not to start a new business this year partially because of all the things we're talking about, partially, like, you know, and there's another good sidebar we could take is like, I've also learned to trust my energy a lot more. My energy has become like, I've. I've. I think it took me a while to learn what it was. Then it took me a while to trust what it was, but now I trust it. My energy is like, nope, don't do anything new. You've got plenty going on. But I think given that we've got more scale across all of the stuff we're doing now, that, plus, like, the. The starting a new business every year, even co founding with you, co founding with Casey, like, your experience is like. And for Casey, for. Let's say that first year was tough. The first 15 months was up, but now she's, like, got a real business. It's got employees, and, like, it. It's not gonna. It's. It's tough in different ways. But my experience has been the slog of the freaking first year of every business every year, which I think I was super hyped about for a minute, and now I'm like. Like, just not as excited that might. I might start another business in two years. Maybe, maybe not. But it's definitely driven me to going like, yeah, wait, I think I do want to start it. Like, or. I think I do think M and A is a more interesting path for me. It solves a lot of things. It solves that issue. Right? So you get. No matter how good the idea is, I think Ox is one of the best business ideas I've ever had and we've ever built. And yet it still took us a good two years to get it to, like, some sort of, I call it gravitational force. Right? You kind of have to, like, the first cranks of the shaft you have to do a few times. And so I'm like, man, I'm, like, a little sick of that slog, and I just don't want to do it. I think that's one thing that's driving me I think the other thing that's driving me is leverage. Like again it takes time to get these businesses to leverage. Whereas you buy something, you can get a lot more leverage very quickly. And then I think the third thing is it will be different for me. The expectations will be different for me to work on the business versus in the business. Like I think co founding a business with someone, there's just an expectation that I'm going to be part of the building of the business. Whereas if I'm like the owner, I bought it, it's like oh he's, he's not like there's a business that runs and he's sort of helping make it better, but he's not in it. And so I think that's, that's driving it. And I think the other thing we've proved a lot of interesting things. Like we've learned from OX that like growth marketing can be a really effective lever for, for these, for businesses you buy. We've learned from bootstrap giants that there's a ton of founders out there who are stuck and there's like ways I can unstick them and I can actually have a lot of impact from the outside in. So I think there's like all these interesting things coming together. Then there's this whole AI thing which is another vector we've been spending time on of like now can you bring AI into the picture? And what does that look like? So I think it does it like I am getting excited for maybe the next season here to be more about M and A and at least to try it. Like it might not work but, but I'm open to trying it. The other thing by the way, energetically is like wanting to take a big swing. Like all these businesses we've started so far, like ga, ox, bg, they're great. They're all like, they were like high confidence businesses that were gonna work. I think they didn't feel like hugely risky businesses. And I think like I'm. Part of me is craving a little bit bigger of a swing.

[A]

So what's a big swing? Meaning like roll up, I go buy.

[B]

A 50 million dollar company, one that I might totally up, maybe maybe buy one every two years. I don't know like, but, but it's a big swing. It's like no go do go. Like go go try something like that. You don't know how to do that. You haven't done that. Could fail. Yeah, like none of these businesses felt, have felt that way that.

[A]

So is this you though going back to the way you were before, where you needed risk in order to really perform.

[B]

I don't think so. I, I don't think it's not fear driven. I think it's just like a, it's like a. I feel like, honestly, I feel like fear has driven my decision making around some of the. More boots, some of these bets. Like, I didn't want to fail and I think I actually have more of a willingness to fail than I did in the past to have like, just like a bigger platform and more upside. Like the other. Here's another frustration I've shared with nac, that's an interesting one. It's like, because of BG and a bunch of things we're doing, we have so many smart people. Like, let's use Michael Riley as an example. We have so many smart people around here and we can't keep Michael Riley because we can't. Like, we don't have, we don't have enough going on here that can pay him enough and make it upside more interesting and all those things. Like somebody like him problems too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, we've got, we've got tons of smart people who want to work with, with me and work with us because of this, and I don't have enough. And that's like one cool thing about a private equity firm. And OX RE showed me this. Like, OX has all ridiculously smart, motivated people. We're paying them all a lot because it's like a premium business. And I'm like, oh, it's so nice to just work with tons of smart, motivated people. It's a different person type of person. It's like Lauren who you're talking to, like, she's just a different level of a person in terms of skills and capabilities.

[A]

I still want to talk to you about both of those, but AI keeps coming up. I'm wondering what you're seeing in AI, because the little bits that I see don't feel like they're big and I don't know what you're. What you're catching.

[B]

I think that, you know, when I first started working with Facebook ads, we were trying to convince brands that they were going to be something and they weren't at the time. Like, you could get likes. I think they work for daily deal sites. They were these right hand rail ads. They were pretty shitty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then one day and yeah, we've talked about this past. I like, I love the concept of sandbox entrepreneurship. Like, you find the right sandbox, you play in it, and you're gonna figure out what's there. Then all of a sudden the mobile phone became important, then the newsfeed became important and next thing you know, you know, Facebook ads were the most important thing that was out there. And so I actually think it's interesting and the hype cycles are what they are and so on and so forth. But I think from what I can see from AI and like in the, it's a really interesting situation where the level of advancement is unlike I think anything we've ever seen since maybe the mobile phone or the Internet or the piece. Like it's, it's that level of, of scale. The hype is even more than the reality. Like the hype is absurd. And I think that's, that turns a lot of people like you off that, oh, there's too much hype there. I think the few examples of I invested in this business called Figure the robot company. And like I know the founder. It's a crazy company. I mean it's, it's like a. I invested at a 350 million valuation. It's getting valued at 38 billion right now. It might make, it might make me more money than Ambush made me, which would be hilarious. But the things he's showing me are crazy. I mean these robots are teaching themselves what, what stuff is the first time they've ever seen it. And, and when I see that stuff, I go, okay, that is all I believe all that. And then you go back to our world and you're like, can we make a transcript of a thing? Can we make a TW thread? No, we can't. It sucks. And actually for me, Andrew, that's what gets me excited because I'm like, wait, the DFS versus the current reality is so far away that there's going to be massive opportunities now if we, we're all like relatively tech forward, we're in the circles, we can't figure it out. Think about these like private equity owned businesses that OX is helping with. I mean OX is doing work that's 10 or 15 years old at this point for a lot of these private equity backed companies like the stuff ambush was doing 10 years ago. We're now doing that at Ox for certain of the private equity backed businesses. Right, I see. So I just see a massive opportunity of being an early adopter to something that I think is going to be huge, even if it hasn't yet proven out that there's a there there. Like I see the value in being someone who goes and figures out how to put it into play.

[A]

Yeah, I talked To Casey from ox. And I said, is there an opportunity to create an AUX for something else? Like what OX does is marketing advice to private equity firms. And I know she says it in a different way, but she thought, well, do the AI version of ox. Is that what you're thinking of, where you go into businesses? Private? I guess, yeah. You go into business, maybe.

[B]

I mean, I would either probably start that as a part of OX and just make it a practice group inside of aux, because OX already has the relationships and the distribution and it's sort of indifferent for me. What we're thinking is like, the first thing I want to do first with Growth Assistant is actually AI. If I. Growth assistant, right. And. And like, what. What does that mean, Jesse? Yeah, I don't know. What does that mean? I mean, I, I could give you examples, but I don't know actually. But that's exactly the point is that I want to go there and go, okay, sales team, what are your problems? Oh, you know, you don't know when to upsell someone. Oh, people are using different scripts. Okay, can I use AI? And it could be gong. It could be third party tools. It doesn't have to be, you know, some core language stuff or how. How is Carolyn doing marketing? How's she writing emails? Let's go try to solve a bunch of problems. And even how do we enable the GAS to have AI knowledge? And what does that do? And at the end of that, there's. There's. You'll end up in one of three places. One place is we tried this for three to six months and it was useless, which either means it doesn't work or we're too early, right? And I go, okay, that's great to learn that. I'm glad I could learn that before I went too crazy on it with a company I knew and it was low risk and I own, you know, like this. The second other, the flip side of that is, holy crap. Like, the DFS for it would be, we double. Like I told Adrian was like, we double the revenue of the business without growing costs at all. And if we do that, not only do we have more financial resources internally, but holy crap, now I've got a way that I can go buy businesses or I can transform businesses that like, I only. I know I literally authored it with my own company, right? And then the middle one is like, there's there, it's somewhere in between one of those two. And in that case, maybe you start a consultancy. Maybe there's some other play that maybe there's A product you figure out that you can turn into a SaaS product or something like that. But, but it's part of it is you, I, I, at least, you know, we, you and I debate this sometimes because you like to research and talk to people. I like to go do things and I like to figure them out experientially. And I'm like, if it works, it like, I don't want to talk to anybody about this AI stuff. I want to like go do it and I want to see what happens.

[A]

You invested in this. The other thing that I thought was super interesting is you and you invested in a private equity fund. And I saw the amount that you invested. I saw the direct connection. I didn't know that you could do that as an individual. I gotta ask you, just give me some, like, what are some of the things that you invest in? What do you do with your money? Is this awkward?

[B]

No, I, no, no, not at all. I, I don't think, I don't think I do anything that special. I guess is where I was gonna go. Like, I, I probably, you know, if you, if you say, say I have $10 million, right. Just made that number up. I think of it as, well, there's a couple different ways I think about this, right? At a high level. One is like you have a certain amount of income you earn every year. Let's call it make up numbers. A million dollars a year, you spend save $600,000 a year. You keep adding some cash every year, that thing. And then what's the portfolio that it goes into? And my DFS is probably honestly like 50% the index at this point. I'll tell you what I used to do, but like 50% the index and like 25% private equity, private credit type stuff like the private equity fund, or there's some other interesting private credit things. And 25% real estate, that's kind of my DFS.

[A]

What I've done, regular real estate is what you'd like to buy.

[B]

No, real estate funds, Real estate funds. Or there's like, there's these operators, I send you an example, but like they go buy apartment buildings in Arizona and they have a, you know, a whole system that they use, whatever.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

What I've done historically, you know, we'll see how it all nets out. I think one is if you look at my, like it's, it's probably more like 20% random angel investments, which I'm like done doing. Even if this figure thing pays, like, it's just it. I got attracted to. Because I like entrepreneurship and I want to work with entrepreneurs. And I was like, oh, cool idea. Write this check. Write this check. And then it takes forever. And, like, the liquidity thing is so annoying and such a huge issue. And then even. And then, like, you're losing money and you're not really involved with the companies. Like, I just didn't find it to be gratifying at all or exciting or enjoyable. And I think I'm pretty shitty at it. Like, my. Maybe I'll. It'll. I'll pull it out at the end, but I don't know that it's going to have good returns. And then the other thing I was doing that I've stopped doing is stock picking. Similar. Like, I thought I was so smart. And by the way, I've made some really good bets. I. The best one I've made, dude, is. Is when we were selling Ambush. I can tell you it was October, November of 2022.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. We're getting term sheets for Ambush, and we're getting term sheets at, like, 10 to 12 times cash flow for the business.

[A]

This is the final part of Ambush.

[B]

Final part of Ambush, you're selling the company and Facebook stock because, you know, Apple had done that thing where they had changed the data and. And basically, like, oh, my God. You know, advertisers aren't knowing where they're going. Everyone's freaking out. Their stock had dropped to 90 bucks a share, which was six times Facebook's cash flow. And I was just like, this makes no sense. Why would Ambush's entire business is built on Facebook be worth, you know, double as a multiple? And then I called John in the middle of this. I'm like, hey, did you figure this out? He's like, yeah, we figured it out. Like, we know exactly how to solve the Apple issue now. And of course, I knew Ambush was on the bleeding edge of figuring things out. And so I bought a ton of Facebook stock at $90 a share, and look at it today. Like, I bought a lot. I'm just holding it. Yeah. I mean, there's.

[A]

How much did you put into Facebook at the time?

[B]

Like a quarter million dollars.

[A]

Okay. Oh, wow. It is 672 today.

[B]

And you can go back and look at that. But anyway, so that was a pretty good stock pick. I guess I'm not the worst stock picker, but in general, like, I think the reality of it is, outside of maybe one, one or two instances like this, like, most of the stock picking I did, it did not go well. Like, I bought Some spacs or whatever. And the index just works, right. And if you just do the math on it. If you have you know, 10 million and you put 300,000 in a year and this is another funny mind of all this stuff is. And you compounded at 7% or whatever, like you're going to have as long as you keep earning money, even if you don't by the way. But like you're going to have 50 million bucks by the time you're 70 years old. And then the question is more interesting which is what the hell do you do with that money? Because my, my big issue is like I don't know what to do with the 10, what am I going to do with the 50? And it's like a funny mind is just because you. We spend so much time we're trying to earn money.

[A]

What are you thinking of?

[B]

It's, it's been like a weird existential issue for me. I'm like, I don't actually know. I don't want to leave much to my kids. Although that starts to see, that's actually seeming more attractive these days because of all the stewards of it. They actually seem like they'll potentially be the best stewards of it. Right. Yeah, I want to give to charity, but charities even like as someone who's like a hard nosed entrepreneur, I like look at what they're doing. I'm like I don't think you're good. You're gonna make a lot of use of this money. Well, so should I start my own charity? Like my own non profit? Like that's a thought I've had like the gateway X version of, of like a non profit then you can give it to the government. No thanks. Right. Or you can spend it and so I've actually gotten. The expending has become a more interesting option honestly. And you know, do you not enjoy spending money?

[A]

I, I do see that you, you got a second house, maybe even a third. I can't tell. You seem to be actually enjoying the skiing, the relaxing, the taking space.

[B]

Yeah, I think, I think it's been a part of my personal spiritual journey for sure. I think it wasn't always easy for me. I think, I think you just think.

[A]

It was gonna change spiritual journey when it comes to like spending money and having fun. Is it, is it just the way you.

[B]

Yeah, because no, because. Because I think. No, no, not at all. I think like shifting from fear and scarcity around money to, to like abundance and, and love and like openness like that's, that's the shift that's actually made me enjoy money, not the money itself. Because I think before I would be freaking out about, like, okay, what are the scenarios here? I need to run them. Or like, I, I shouldn't spend X on a second house. That's. That's indulgent, it's unnecessary. Like, I grew up in an immigrant household. Like, that's, that's crazy, right? Or just like, or like, like buying a business. Like, I was talking to my dad the other day, and my dad is like a. You know, there's a bunch of real estate that he's built himself in San. In. In San Diego. And my mom was texting me and complaining because they, they flew to Dubai where my grandparents, my grand. My grandfather lives, and they went, premium economy, right? And. And so, you know, and I was like, why. Why aren't you flying business? He's like, it was $8,000 round trip per ticket. And anomaly is like, yeah, that is a lot. Like, that's offensive. Even when I say it right now, I'm like, ugh, that's a lot of money on a plane ticket. And I was like, you're this many years old. Like, you know, I was like, I donate 20% of my inheritance so you can travel business class for the rest of your life. Because, you know, there's this really good book called Die with Zero that Dave Cashin had me read after we sold Ambush. And it was so powerful for me because I started to really. And that's why I've called Spiritual Journey, because a lot of it for me has been in. In allowing, like, allowing myself to enjoy it.

[A]

When you say spiritual, are you talking about, like, my spirit, meaning my energy and what lights me up? Or spirit as in, like, the way that we say religious when we don't want people to think that we're nuts?

[B]

Neither spirit. I mean, there's some part of the religion, but spiritual means that, like, there is a part of me that's not this physical body and not this physical form, right? And the more we're in the physical form, then money is also. It's like all these things matter. It's like the, you know, it's like when you lose perspective on something, you're fighting with your wife about the pen on the table and why is the pen on the table? It's like, how much perspective have you lost? But, like, day to day, we lose perspective. We'll go, this is my. This is me. This is my whole life. This is everything. The. My bank account is my life. That is everything. So when I say spiritual, I'm like, no, you let go. Once you let go of attachments to that stuff, you, you spend it more freely. Like for me at least. I can't speak for anybody else. Like I, some people spend it out of insecurity, by the way. My mind was the opposite. I was like, no, no, no, I got to hold on to this stuff. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to lose money, I don't want to mess this up. And as I've gotten a little bit more, less attached to it, I'm like, yeah, like spend it. And there's been a bunch of things that have helped with that obviously, like starting, starting more companies and those being more successful. Like there's been things that have helped me get to that point. But, but spiritual, like the spiritual journey has definitely been a part of it, which is just being more of like this is not. I'm more than, than this body, than this bank account, than these other things.

[A]

Why not buy real estate directly? I mean, is there the same benefit to having someone else manage your real estate and be a part of someone else's real estate portfolio versus owning it yourself?

[B]

I honestly just haven't been able to make the time or get excited about it. Is the honest to God truth. It's on my list as like my dad's like, why aren't you buying multifamily buildings? Why aren't you? Real estate's the only asset. And I'm like, you're right. And then I'm like, I don't want to go look at a bunch of eight unit buildings in Saint like, or wherever and then have a property management business. Of course I can do it. I have the energy. I mean I'm starting a million things, but I just haven't got being able to get excited about it. And then I see these guys who are good operators and it's like, this is their business. Like let's just write them a check.

[A]

Like, is your brother doing this on the side? What is he doing Airbnb or something?

[B]

My brother in law does a lot of real estate stuff. He's done it since he was like 21. My younger brother works with my dad and owns a multi family place in San Diego with my. Alongside my dad. My older brother. My older brother and I basically have just never sold a house. So I used to have my place in San Francisco. Like. And you're renting it out? Yeah, we just rent. I mean like just kind of like the. I mean, I have a 3%, 30 year mortgage.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Like, yeah, in. In Noe Valley, like that's going to be a great asset.

[A]

We lived so close to each other and we didn't even know it.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

I would have thought we'd run into each other at the farmer's market. All right, I like this. You know what? This to me is like, if you talk about. I don't know that I'd say this zone is genius or not, but this is one of my favorite things to do, to just have conversations like this. And I do feel like our relationship needed this. Frankly, I feel like my wife. Maybe I should just do an interview with my wife and then save it in our files.

[B]

When you came and met my wife, she was like, damn, how did I get so deep with this guy so quickly? And it's so funny because. Because that happens with you and Dave cash in in totally different ways. Yours is more like a podcast interview. Or all of a sudden you're like, well, why that? And what do you think about that? And Dave is like, she's crying within 10 minutes of talking to Dave because he just, like, he asks a piercing question and then just stay as quiet as, you know. And then next thing you know, like, the tears just start flowing out. That's so funny.

[A]

All right, so we're going to do this more often. We're going to post it. And I have anxiety about the numbers about it. I have anxiety about people seeing that it doesn't have millions of views. We should talk about that in a future session. But I have to say, I do enjoy this a lot.

[B]

All right, cool. Likewise.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

See you. Bye.