#2285 AEO: How to make ChatGPT promote you

Podcast Summary:

Startup Stories – Mixergy
Episode #2285: AEO: How to Make ChatGPT Promote You
Host: Andrew Warner
Guest: Ethan (SEO/AEO expert; runs Graphite)
Date: November 11, 2025

Episode Overview

In this deep-dive into Answer Engine Optimization (AEO), Andrew Warner speaks with Ethan, a leader in SEO and now at the forefront of optimizing for AI-driven answer engines like ChatGPT, Perplexity, Gemini, and Claude. The episode explores why startups should prioritize AEO, actionable strategies to get cited in LLMs (large language models), success stories, debunked myths, and the evolving toolkit for AEO. Both big corporations and scrappy startups can leverage these tactics—many surprisingly effective even without heavyweight resources.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Answer Engine Optimization (AEO)? Why Is It Important?

AEO focuses on making your content the cited source in AI-based answers (e.g., ChatGPT, Perplexity) rather than just ranking in conventional Google search results.
The relevance (and conversions) from AEO is growing rapidly:

“…the size of the conversions is substantial and therefore I think the timing is good.” (B, 00:54)

2. SEO vs AEO: Overlap and Critical Differences

SEO Tactics Help AEO: Many traditional SEO best practices (like topic/feature/integration landing pages) still feed into LLM citations.
AEO-Specific Tactics:
- Offsite Optimization: Engage where LLMs pull citations—Reddit, YouTube, affiliates, LinkedIn, Quora, etc.
- Content Types: Help center articles and detailed use-case/feature content are more crucial in AEO than SEO, especially for the “long tail” of hyper-specific queries.
Notable Quote:

“A lot of what you do for SEO actually helps with AEO without trying to. … But [AEO] is mostly off-site optimizations.” (B, 01:48–02:48)

3. Case Study: Webflow & Offsite AEO Tactics

Reddit: Webflow staff openly answer user posts as themselves (with transparency about affiliation), providing value rather than spam.
YouTube: Even moderately-viewed explainer or use-case videos surface as citations in LLMs—especially in less “entertaining” B2B categories.
Help Center Content: Detailed support docs become critical sources for specific, user-intent-driven queries posed to LLMs (vs. Google).

“Help center optimization is not something you would focus on for SEO, but you would for answer engine optimization, because that's where you have all this information about what your product does.” (B, 10:19)

4. AEO Tactics For Startups With Limited Resources

Unlike SEO, even young companies with no established authority can win citations by:
- Becoming a genuine community member (Reddit, Quora) and posting thoughtful, honest, helpful answers under their real name or affiliation.
- Creating YouTube walkthroughs or use-case explainer videos.
“It's actually one of the most interesting channels for small companies with limited resources.” (B, 13:41)

5. Practical AEO Content Strategy

Don’t create a unique page for every possible user question—the AI is smart enough to assemble fragmented facts if you provide comprehensive docs (features, integrations, supported languages, etc.).
The more relevant, high-quality articles, help-center pieces, affiliate write-ups, and third-party citations you have, the better.
Ping companies you integrate with and get cited on their sites or docs as well.

6. The Adjacent Channels Loop

Adjacent channels (Reddit, Video/YouTube, Affiliates, LinkedIn, Instagram) create feedback loops—for AEO, for organic search, and for discovery within those native UIs.
Not every channel is optimized yet, which is a land grab for startups and SaaS brands.

7. Debunking SEO & AEO Myths

SEO is not dead:

“SEO is a massive channel… at least 5x or 10x bigger than LLMs, depending on the category.” (B, 17:18)
AEO does not mean neglecting SEO: They are intertwined, and many of the same investments serve both.
LLMs.txt is a myth: Neither ChatGPT nor Google relies on this (or knows/respects it).

“…if you ask ChatGPT if it uses LLMs.txt, it will tell you that it does not.” (B, 21:56)
Affiliate links and citations work: LLMs do not downrank paid mentions.

8. How to Test & Measure AEO Success

Use the scientific method: build hypotheses, split test (e.g., add videos or citations to 50% of target topics), and compare before/after appearance in answer engines.
Timeframe: 2-week pre-baseline, test, then 4 weeks post-intervention is typical.
The models don’t shift so quickly that strategic changes become obsolete overnight.

9. Tools for AEO

Dozens of emerging tracking and monitoring tools are cataloged (e.g., Peak AI, Scrunch, Surfer, Athena).
They currently focus on tracking rather than optimization, but content scoring tools (like Clearscope) are coming soon.
Tracking tools are largely “commodity”:

“These are not hard to build. These are commodity, easy to build, relatively commodity tools with no technical defensibility…” (B, 33:56)

10. Building AEO Agencies & Opportunities

Greenfield for agencies—especially for those specializing in Reddit, Quora, YouTube, and other answer sources for LLMs.
Market size exists both for high-end, full-service agencies and lean, niche ones charging lower monthly rates.

“I think it's a very interesting space for services. Not just answer engine optimization, but all of those adjacent channels. … So I think it's especially interesting, which is exactly why I'm building that.” (B, 35:22)

11. Ethan’s Unique Value & Track Record

Referral business, results-driven reputation—delivered millions of organic visits for Masterclass, helped establish now-standard SEO strategies (“10 Best X for Y”, interstitials, etc.)
Focuses on high-impact, original research and actionable playbooks over volume-driven, mediocre “thought leadership”:

“I could delegate mediocrity… mediocrity works, but that's not what we do. And so I have to personally do it.” (B, 41:47)

12. Ethan’s AEO Roadmap (Actionable Steps)

Step 1: Start from your “money” search (or paid search) keywords.
Step 2: Convert those keywords into full, user-style questions.
Step 3: Track those questions in an AEO monitoring tool.
Step 4: Analyze which sources are cited for them.
Step 5: Optimize citations—focus efforts on Reddit, YouTube, affiliates, etc.
Step 6: Build out site content for the long tail (help center, use cases, integrations).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On AEO’s birth and necessity:

“In fact, I spent about an hour with him where he's going to walk you through how you can get to be the first, first result when people ask about your business to ChatGPT. Perplexity. Claude…” (A, 00:08)
On offsite authenticity beating spam:

“…people at Webflow then said, hey, I'm Vivian, I work at webflow, I'm a real person. Here's, here's some useful information that answers your question. So that's what actually worked.” (B, 03:50)
On small startups’ AEO edge:

“…time to impact is fast… you can grow on these other channels without really having a substantial brand...” (B, 13:41)
On Help Center as secret weapon:

“Help center is actually a great place to do that because Help center is you talking about how your product works and what it does, what it does not do. And so Help center optimization is not something you would focus on for SEO, but you would for answer engine optimization…” (B, 10:19)
On skeptical "LLMs.txt":

“…elems Txt is one of many examples of false information and myths.” (B, 22:20)
On agency opportunity:

“…there's no one who's great at making use case B2B YouTube videos. So there's all this greenfield stuff…” (B, 35:22)
On Ethan’s work with Masterclass:

“…there was no SEO. We built the strategy from scratch. I think it. I don't know exactly what it went to. It's probably 10 million plus per month… It was a substantial amount of traffic.” (B, 47:04)
On post-pandemic fires:

“So I got a fire pit and actually I had a old cast iron oven from 1880... and then I would have fires out in my garden.” (B, 48:26)

Timestamps for Key Segments

AEO vs SEO and Case Study: 00:40–05:42
Reddit & YouTube Offsite Tactics: 02:48–06:24
Help Center & Content Long Tail: 09:09–13:29
Small Startup Tactics: 13:29–14:43
Debunking LLMs.txt & Myths: 19:56–23:12
AEO Testing & Measurement: 23:12–25:05
Affiliate Mentions & LLMs: 26:05–27:02
Finding Top Questions: 27:14–29:48
AEO Tools Landscape: 31:21–33:56
Agency Opportunity: 34:52–39:20
Ethan’s Results & Masterclass: 45:56–47:48
Personal Fire Pit Anecdote: 48:26–51:06

Useful Takeaways ("If you do nothing else...")

Start building offsite content in communities and video—even tiny startups can beat big incumbents for specific AEO queries.
Identify, track, and optimize for real user questions using both SEO and offsite content.
Don’t fall for AEO/LLM hacks and myths—focus on proven, testable tactics, and rely on scientific experimentation.
If you’re an agency entrepreneur, this space is greenfield: serve startups and B2Bs looking to win AI-powered answer slots now, before the space matures.

For more resources, Ethan suggests heading to their website and searching for “AEO tools” for the most up-to-date tracking and strategy platforms.

Podcast Summary:

Startup Stories – Mixergy
Episode #2285: AEO: How to Make ChatGPT Promote You
Host: Andrew Warner
Guest: Ethan (SEO/AEO expert; runs Graphite)
Date: November 11, 2025

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Answer Engine Optimization (AEO)? Why Is It Important?

AEO focuses on making your content the cited source in AI-based answers (e.g., ChatGPT, Perplexity) rather than just ranking in conventional Google search results.
The relevance (and conversions) from AEO is growing rapidly:

“…the size of the conversions is substantial and therefore I think the timing is good.” (B, 00:54)

2. SEO vs AEO: Overlap and Critical Differences

SEO Tactics Help AEO: Many traditional SEO best practices (like topic/feature/integration landing pages) still feed into LLM citations.
AEO-Specific Tactics:
- Offsite Optimization: Engage where LLMs pull citations—Reddit, YouTube, affiliates, LinkedIn, Quora, etc.
- Content Types: Help center articles and detailed use-case/feature content are more crucial in AEO than SEO, especially for the “long tail” of hyper-specific queries.
Notable Quote:

“A lot of what you do for SEO actually helps with AEO without trying to. … But [AEO] is mostly off-site optimizations.” (B, 01:48–02:48)

3. Case Study: Webflow & Offsite AEO Tactics

Reddit: Webflow staff openly answer user posts as themselves (with transparency about affiliation), providing value rather than spam.
YouTube: Even moderately-viewed explainer or use-case videos surface as citations in LLMs—especially in less “entertaining” B2B categories.
Help Center Content: Detailed support docs become critical sources for specific, user-intent-driven queries posed to LLMs (vs. Google).

“Help center optimization is not something you would focus on for SEO, but you would for answer engine optimization, because that's where you have all this information about what your product does.” (B, 10:19)

4. AEO Tactics For Startups With Limited Resources

Unlike SEO, even young companies with no established authority can win citations by:
- Becoming a genuine community member (Reddit, Quora) and posting thoughtful, honest, helpful answers under their real name or affiliation.
- Creating YouTube walkthroughs or use-case explainer videos.
“It's actually one of the most interesting channels for small companies with limited resources.” (B, 13:41)

5. Practical AEO Content Strategy

Don’t create a unique page for every possible user question—the AI is smart enough to assemble fragmented facts if you provide comprehensive docs (features, integrations, supported languages, etc.).
The more relevant, high-quality articles, help-center pieces, affiliate write-ups, and third-party citations you have, the better.
Ping companies you integrate with and get cited on their sites or docs as well.

6. The Adjacent Channels Loop

Adjacent channels (Reddit, Video/YouTube, Affiliates, LinkedIn, Instagram) create feedback loops—for AEO, for organic search, and for discovery within those native UIs.
Not every channel is optimized yet, which is a land grab for startups and SaaS brands.

7. Debunking SEO & AEO Myths

SEO is not dead:

“SEO is a massive channel… at least 5x or 10x bigger than LLMs, depending on the category.” (B, 17:18)
AEO does not mean neglecting SEO: They are intertwined, and many of the same investments serve both.
LLMs.txt is a myth: Neither ChatGPT nor Google relies on this (or knows/respects it).

“…if you ask ChatGPT if it uses LLMs.txt, it will tell you that it does not.” (B, 21:56)
Affiliate links and citations work: LLMs do not downrank paid mentions.

8. How to Test & Measure AEO Success

Use the scientific method: build hypotheses, split test (e.g., add videos or citations to 50% of target topics), and compare before/after appearance in answer engines.
Timeframe: 2-week pre-baseline, test, then 4 weeks post-intervention is typical.
The models don’t shift so quickly that strategic changes become obsolete overnight.

9. Tools for AEO

Dozens of emerging tracking and monitoring tools are cataloged (e.g., Peak AI, Scrunch, Surfer, Athena).
They currently focus on tracking rather than optimization, but content scoring tools (like Clearscope) are coming soon.
Tracking tools are largely “commodity”:

“These are not hard to build. These are commodity, easy to build, relatively commodity tools with no technical defensibility…” (B, 33:56)

10. Building AEO Agencies & Opportunities

Greenfield for agencies—especially for those specializing in Reddit, Quora, YouTube, and other answer sources for LLMs.
Market size exists both for high-end, full-service agencies and lean, niche ones charging lower monthly rates.

“I think it's a very interesting space for services. Not just answer engine optimization, but all of those adjacent channels. … So I think it's especially interesting, which is exactly why I'm building that.” (B, 35:22)

11. Ethan’s Unique Value & Track Record

Referral business, results-driven reputation—delivered millions of organic visits for Masterclass, helped establish now-standard SEO strategies (“10 Best X for Y”, interstitials, etc.)
Focuses on high-impact, original research and actionable playbooks over volume-driven, mediocre “thought leadership”:

“I could delegate mediocrity… mediocrity works, but that's not what we do. And so I have to personally do it.” (B, 41:47)

12. Ethan’s AEO Roadmap (Actionable Steps)

Step 1: Start from your “money” search (or paid search) keywords.
Step 2: Convert those keywords into full, user-style questions.
Step 3: Track those questions in an AEO monitoring tool.
Step 4: Analyze which sources are cited for them.
Step 5: Optimize citations—focus efforts on Reddit, YouTube, affiliates, etc.
Step 6: Build out site content for the long tail (help center, use cases, integrations).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On AEO’s birth and necessity:

“In fact, I spent about an hour with him where he's going to walk you through how you can get to be the first, first result when people ask about your business to ChatGPT. Perplexity. Claude…” (A, 00:08)
On offsite authenticity beating spam:

“…people at Webflow then said, hey, I'm Vivian, I work at webflow, I'm a real person. Here's, here's some useful information that answers your question. So that's what actually worked.” (B, 03:50)
On small startups’ AEO edge:

“…time to impact is fast… you can grow on these other channels without really having a substantial brand...” (B, 13:41)
On Help Center as secret weapon:

“Help center is actually a great place to do that because Help center is you talking about how your product works and what it does, what it does not do. And so Help center optimization is not something you would focus on for SEO, but you would for answer engine optimization…” (B, 10:19)
On skeptical "LLMs.txt":

“…elems Txt is one of many examples of false information and myths.” (B, 22:20)
On agency opportunity:

“…there's no one who's great at making use case B2B YouTube videos. So there's all this greenfield stuff…” (B, 35:22)
On Ethan’s work with Masterclass:

“…there was no SEO. We built the strategy from scratch. I think it. I don't know exactly what it went to. It's probably 10 million plus per month… It was a substantial amount of traffic.” (B, 47:04)
On post-pandemic fires:

“So I got a fire pit and actually I had a old cast iron oven from 1880... and then I would have fires out in my garden.” (B, 48:26)

Timestamps for Key Segments

AEO vs SEO and Case Study: 00:40–05:42
Reddit & YouTube Offsite Tactics: 02:48–06:24
Help Center & Content Long Tail: 09:09–13:29
Small Startup Tactics: 13:29–14:43
Debunking LLMs.txt & Myths: 19:56–23:12
AEO Testing & Measurement: 23:12–25:05
Affiliate Mentions & LLMs: 26:05–27:02
Finding Top Questions: 27:14–29:48
AEO Tools Landscape: 31:21–33:56
Agency Opportunity: 34:52–39:20
Ethan’s Results & Masterclass: 45:56–47:48
Personal Fire Pit Anecdote: 48:26–51:06

Useful Takeaways ("If you do nothing else...")

Start building offsite content in communities and video—even tiny startups can beat big incumbents for specific AEO queries.
Identify, track, and optimize for real user questions using both SEO and offsite content.
Don’t fall for AEO/LLM hacks and myths—focus on proven, testable tactics, and rely on scientific experimentation.
If you’re an agency entrepreneur, this space is greenfield: serve startups and B2Bs looking to win AI-powered answer slots now, before the space matures.

For more resources, Ethan suggests heading to their website and searching for “AEO tools” for the most up-to-date tracking and strategy platforms.

Powered by Wave AI

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Answer Engine Optimization (AEO)? Why Is It Important?

2. SEO vs AEO: Overlap and Critical Differences

3. Case Study: Webflow & Offsite AEO Tactics

4. AEO Tactics For Startups With Limited Resources

5. Practical AEO Content Strategy

6. The Adjacent Channels Loop

7. Debunking SEO & AEO Myths

8. How to Test & Measure AEO Success

9. Tools for AEO

10. Building AEO Agencies & Opportunities

11. Ethan’s Unique Value & Track Record

12. Ethan’s AEO Roadmap (Actionable Steps)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Useful Takeaways ("If you do nothing else...")

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Answer Engine Optimization (AEO)? Why Is It Important?

2. SEO vs AEO: Overlap and Critical Differences

3. Case Study: Webflow & Offsite AEO Tactics

4. AEO Tactics For Startups With Limited Resources

5. Practical AEO Content Strategy

6. The Adjacent Channels Loop

7. Debunking SEO & AEO Myths

8. How to Test & Measure AEO Success

9. Tools for AEO

10. Building AEO Agencies & Opportunities

11. Ethan’s Unique Value & Track Record

12. Ethan’s AEO Roadmap (Actionable Steps)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Useful Takeaways ("If you do nothing else...")