How This Broker Built 200 Agents WITHOUT Traditional Recruiting | Mark Perkins, CEO of Pivot Realty

Summary

Stay Paid Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: How This Broker Built 200 Agents WITHOUT Traditional Recruiting | Mark Perkins, CEO of Pivot Realty
Release Date: January 12, 2026
Host: Luke Acree
Guest: Mark Perkins, CEO/Founder, Pivot Realty Group

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Overview:

This episode features a candid and deep-dive conversation with Mark Perkins, founder and CEO of Pivot Realty Group. Mark shares the unique journey of building his brokerage to 200 agents—entirely by cultivating new agents, not by recruiting existing talent from competitors. The discussion covers the pitfalls of traditional real estate models, the importance of people-centric leadership, how culture and mission drive long-term success, and practical advice for agents and brokers looking to build meaningful businesses.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of Making the Ask

• Mark reached out to Luke via Instagram, which led to their meeting and this podcast episode.
• Advice: “You don’t receive if you don’t ask... Most people are way too—I don’t want to call it scared or lazy—they just don’t even do the ask.” (Luke, 02:03)
• Mark shares that cold outreach, while intimidating, is crucial, even at high levels of success: “I don’t think there’s a way to eliminate those [fearful] thoughts sometimes.” (Mark, 03:57)

2. Building Pivot Realty: The Model & Mission

• Origin Story: Pivot was intentionally not named after Mark but instead designed around the concept of change and putting agents at the center.
• Mark’s take: Agents didn’t feel valued at big-name brokerages that were “just about the transaction and about the revenue and about the money.” (06:08)
• The pivotal lesson: “The moment you hire someone else, it has to be about them more than me.” (Mark, 05:00)

3. Balancing People and Profit in Brokerage

• Mark advocates integration versus balance: “If you’re going to be an entrepreneur, there’s no switch to flip off at five o’clock.” (08:09)
• Pivot Realty plays a long game, focusing on career-long agent success rather than quarterly profits (09:28).
• Mark avoids debt and quick returns, allowing for strategic long-term choices.

4. Offering Real, Not Just Advertised, Value

• Mark admits: “I don’t think we’re displaying [our service mindset] enough... but this service mindset, there’s nothing that’s not on the table to help change somebody’s life.” (12:26, 12:44)
• The leadership team is composed of agents who rose from within the company; Mark and team interact daily with double-digit agents (13:04).

5. Infinite Game & Defining Success

• Referencing Simon Sinek’s Infinite Game, Luke and Mark agree on setting the “game” you want to play and making decisions accordingly.
• Mark: “I’m not playing the Wall Street game.” (14:50)
• Coaching and leadership are critical: “If you’re going to scale a business and be that plugged in culturally, you have to develop more talent.” (14:53)

6. Teams, Culture, and Agent Accountability

• Mark argues that real estate’s team model is often inward-focused: “You shouldn’t start a team that other people join to serve you... They think you’re going to help them.” (15:05)
• The brokerage must develop and support agents—a responsibility many brokerages have abdicated in favor of quarterly profits (16:12).

7. Success Ratios and the ‘Middle 60%’

• Mark discusses the 80/20 rule in agent performance, emphasizing that “the middle 60%...just haven’t found great leaders that pour into them.” (21:26)
• The biggest opportunity for impact is with agents doing 2-3 deals/year, not top or bottom performers (22:08).
• Scalability Challenge: “How do you scale impact?” (23:51)

8. Tech, Scaling, and True Brokerage Impact

• Even with free access to top-tier platforms (e.g., KVCore), adoption rates are low. “17% adoption rate inside my brokerage.” (33:31)
• Mark is exploring how group coaching, pods, and eventually tech-based accountability can scale culture and impact beyond one-on-one interactions (24:43).

9. The Pain and Reality of Entrepreneurship

• Mark addresses losing top producers: “The company was too much about me... I had to build it into a professional company where the bigger idea of the culture was, they matter.” (27:09)
• The importance of clear standards, accountability, and enforcing ‘who we are’ as a firm (29:53).

10. Recruiting Stance and Why Agents Jump Firms

• Mark’s contrarian stance: He does not believe in traditional agent recruiting. “There’s really successful people at every place. You don’t have to come work with me to win.” (30:30)
• The majority of successful agents stay put; brokerage switches rarely serve client interests and are often about short-term personal gain (31:27).
• Mark stresses that fulfillment comes from service and personal development, not just the highest commission or split.

11. The Real Traps New Agents Fall Into

• Why agents fail: “No one was honest with them at the start—this business is about business development, prospecting, marketing and branding. The real career is you’ve got to go get the business.” (38:10 - 38:36)

12. Would Mark Do It Again?

• Frankly, “I wouldn’t do it again.” He would have made more money, less stress as a solo top-producing agent, but acknowledges that significance and legacy come from serving others (39:46).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Overcoming Fear of Rejection:

  “I don’t think there’s a way to eliminate those thoughts sometimes. No matter the level of success that you have. And so what you have to do is you just have to do the work.”
  — Mark Perkins (03:57)

• On the Agency Model:

  “The moment that you hire someone else...my belief was it has to be about them more than me.”
  — Mark Perkins (05:00)

• On Defining Success:

  “What is the game I’m playing? I’m not playing the Wall Street game.”
  — Mark Perkins (14:50)

• On Teams and Leadership:

  “You shouldn’t start a team that other people join you to serve you...they only join your team when they’re struggling or when they think they can improve by being around you.”
  — Mark Perkins (15:05)

• On Scaling Culture:

  “The challenge is, how do you scale impact?...if we can build an app-based system where they’re interacting with our brokerage, with our culture, with the actionable items, almost like an adventure book...that’s how we scale.”
  — Mark Perkins (24:43)

• On Losing Top Producers:

  “The company was too much about me...I had to build it into a professional company where the bigger idea of the culture was they matter.”
  — Mark Perkins (27:09)

• On Recruiting and Loyalty:

  “There’s successful people at every brokerage. You don’t have to come work with me to win.”
  — Mark Perkins (30:30)

• Would He Do It Again?:

  “I wouldn’t do it again...the discipline I have as an individual, I would have been number one as a realtor...I would have probably been worth three times what I am now...but the path we’re on will eventually be exponential...It’s worth it. Even though I wouldn’t go back, I’d go back and tell the guy, make it a little easier.”
  — Mark Perkins (39:46, 44:44)

• On Significance:

  “If you want a life of significance, it comes to a life of service.”
  — Luke Acree (43:30)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:11] – Overcoming the fear of outreach and rejection
• [05:00] – Decision to build an agent-centered company; naming Pivot
• [09:28] – Playing the long game; ignoring short-term financial metrics
• [14:50] – Framing business as an "infinite game"
• [15:03] – Brokerages must develop people, not just focus on profits
• [21:26] – Most potential is in the “middle 60%” agents
• [24:43] – How technology might scale agent support and discipline
• [27:09] – The pain of losing top producers and evolving organizational culture
• [30:30] – Why Mark does not recruit top agents and his view on brokerage loyalty
• [38:10] – Why most agents fail: lack of preparation and real training
• [39:46] – The honest answer: “I wouldn’t do it again” and the sacrifices required
• [43:30] – Defining success as significance and service

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Conclusion & Takeaways

Action Item (Luke’s Challenge):
“Sit down and ask: Who am I treating just as a number, and why?...Find the people in your life...and see who you need to treat as a person and help take to the next level.” (47:55)

Summary:
Mark Perkins’ journey with Pivot Realty is a blueprint for those interested in building with purpose, focusing on people rather than just profits. His advice challenges prevailing industry norms, reminding brokers and agents that sustainable success comes from service, culture, and real human connection, not tech platforms or commission splits. Leadership is about making others the hero in their story—and about being honest about the sacrifices needed to build something meaningful.

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Connect with Mark Perkins & Pivot Realty

• Website: pivotrealty.com
• Podcast: The Necessary Entrepreneur
• Social Media: Search for Mark Perkins or Pivot Realty on major platforms

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For more action-driven guidance, visit Stay Paid Podcast.

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This summary omits unrelated sections, advertisements, and intro/outro content to focus solely on the substance of the interview.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

What's up? And welcome to Stay Paid. I am your host, Luke Acre. As you can tell, I'm without my co host on this podcast because he has a much better intro than I do. But we are excited to bring you an incredible episode today because I have an amazing guest and now friend. I just met this guy, but I've had an incredible conversation with him and I'm excited to share it with you because you guys listen to Stay Paid because we bring you the best actionable advice, but you know, to live a life of freedom tomorrow, you got to take action today. And so we're going to pick this guy's brain on everything in entrepreneurship, how to build a real estate business, how to be a successful real estate agent, but most importantly, how to succeed in life in general. So I want to welcome to the show the CEO, founder, broker, owner, janitor, Mark Perkins of Pivot Realty Group. Welcome Stay Pay.

[A]

Thank you. Man. It's great to come to Philly from the Midwest because we bring a little southern hospitality to the Northeast.

[B]

Yeah. So what, you're Kentucky, Cincinnati.

[A]

Cincinnati, Indiana, Ohio.

[B]

Okay. All that area. So literally you reached out to me on Instagram, told me you were going to be in the area and you wanted to come by. How did you first learn about me? Was it through Stay Paid or Instagram? How did you first learn about.

[A]

I didn't even know about you.

[B]

Yeah, but how did, how did you find me on Instagram? You. You.

[A]

What you have done with reminder media in the space without even truly understanding the depth of it. I see your magazine show up on my agents desks every once in a while.

[B]

Okay. And we probably call you to try to get office meetings. And do you, do you ever tell us. Yes. Do you always hang up on us?

[A]

I actually about two years ago in 2023, you did a webinar.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I jumped on the webinar. And those of us that are really busy, everybody listening, we're all so busy. I mean, just listen to us. We tell everybody we are. And I joined in and I took a picture and posted it and said, I'm here, guys. And that was our first interaction. 20, 20, 23. Since then, we didn't meet, we didn't talk. I've just been watching from afar. And you guys have a very good understanding and marketing knowledge and brilliance and intelligence in our space. So you need to go around the people who know what the heck they're doing. So a little bit of rub off on us.

[B]

No, I love it. And I just want you Guys in the audience listening to know kind of how we got together, because the first time we met, we just got done with lunch. Great conversation. Maybe we'll share a little details of that conversation. But he reached out to me on Instagram and this is how it works, and this is what so few people do. Mark reached out to me, let me know he's going to be in the area, and he wanted to get together and come to my office. He didn't ask to be on the podcast or anything like that. And he just wanted to get together. And I was like, absolutely, man, I would love to get together. And it turned into a podcast episode here. But the big tip I want to give people, or Golden Nugget, as I used to say, is that you don't receive if you don't ask. And most people are way too. I don't want to call it. I don't know if it's scared lazy, don't think it's worth it. They just don't even do the ask. Because even before me, you were meeting with even someone even better than me, which is like the right hand guy to Gary Vee. And you guys told me you got that by cold outreach, right? As well. So walk me through. Like, why are you able to do the cold outreach? Why is that how you've always kind of built relationships and done it? Or how does that work for you? And why can you overcome that fear?

[A]

It's the only thing I'm great at in life. And you hear the story about knocking on doors and going face to face, and the only way I know how to get what you want is to ask. But I will acknowledge what you said, the reason why, when we don't, because it's not just everyone else listening. The reason why we don't ask is we're having an issue with our self confidence, our self esteem. And I'm worried about, what if the guy says no? And what I'll even tell you is whatever level of accomplishment and success I found, and people in my world would lay that on me, I still knew that was in my mind even when I sent you the video. I pull up the video and I send it on Instagram. And I know the feeling that every human has is like, well, what if they ignore it? What I'm saying is I don't think there's a way to eliminate those thoughts sometimes.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

No matter the level of success that you have. And so what you have to do is you just have to do the work. And last night I was Sitting, talking to someone. And towards the end of it, I. I said I was gonna have good language on this, so I'm going to. But it pretty much was just do the work. And so I don't think that we have an issue with understanding the work that needs to be done. I do believe that we're so scared because we're worried about the judgment of everyone else.

[B]

Yeah, I. I a hundred percent agree with you. And you have an interesting story because you've built up Pivot Realty Group to a few hundred agents. A couple hundred agents. And you did it not recruiting anybody who was in real estate already. Can you tell a little bit about your journey of building up this brand? And it's also independent, so maybe. Next question. I'm going to pick your brain on why you've chosen to do independent and not join one of the bigger brokerages. But how did you build Pivot?

[A]

All right, so how do I. How did I build Pivot? Is different than why. Okay, so how I built it was. It's the name of it. There's nothing about. Most people name these companies after themselves, and even teams inside of my company, they name it after themselves. And I just know the first two years I was in the business, I worked for a company that there was nothing terrible about them. They were the biggest in Cincinnati. But it was named after two guys. And I'm going to be honest with you, I wasn't doing it for those two guys. And so there was something about me. My opinion was like, why would I name it after me anytime? It was fine when I started the brokerage, and it was just me. That's okay. It was about me then. But I knew I was going to hire people. And so the moment that you hire someone else, that my. My belief was it has to be about them more than me. I know it doesn't seem like that makes any sense, but that's what I found out.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And so I started it originally. The reason why I started the company. I love our industry. I need to say that first. I really do. But I think that our industry has a lot of flaws, and it's had a lot of flaws for a long time that people haven't been bold enough and been willing to address.

[B]

What are some of those flaws?

[A]

That it's all about making money, and it's all about the. Here's what I felt. I was at a company of 1200 agents. Nothing wrong with it. Kudos to somebody if they can have 1200 agents and culture this company. It was just about the transaction and about the revenue and about the money. And what I realized after two years, when you feel like you're a number in anything, you don't want to be a part of it anymore. And so not only was I a number, my clients were numbers. And every time I wanted to do stuff a little bit different, not to buck the system, but a little bit different, it was like, well, does that fall within the policy? Was that the way we do things? Well, why do you do those things? And so what I, what I realized consistently all the time, every time I wanted to do something different that felt like it should be right for the client, every time I wanted to tweak it and do a, a little bit maybe of a different business card, something different. Remember, this is pre teams. It started to feel like they could care less about everyone but themselves in their pocketbook. I don't know if that's the truth, but as an agent who out of 1200 agents within 18 months was number seven, if that person feels that way, something is wrong with the culture. And I wouldn't say you pay attention to just one person's opinion, but there were multiple people that were around me.

[B]

Well, how do you battle that? Because it's so tricky. Because if you don't focus on the number, then you end up running a non profitable business with unsuccessful agents. If you don't at least make it about the targets and the goals. But at the same time, in order to hit targets and goals, you got to care about people. So how do you walk that balance, that push and pull that happens?

[A]

You know how in life everybody's searching for the balance and me and you would probably have. Even though I really like you, man, I got to meet you. It was good, the conversation. And you're a quality human. Based upon my opinion. Luke's a quality human.

[B]

I got him fooled, ladies and gentlemen. I got him.

[A]

He's doing a good job. But you know how a lot of times people are looking for this balance? You hear balance a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you also go to the gurus of this world who we look up to and we put them on pedestals. And so many of them say balance. What are you talking about? Balance? There's no balance at the elite level of success. So what I'm going to say is we'd have a great conversation about that. Right? So I'm someone that, I do believe it's not about balance, it's about integration.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think you have to integrate all parts of your life because if you're going to be an entrepreneur. There's no switch to flip off at five o'. Clock. There's just not. And so what I found was, is that they just didn't this idea of balancing with numbers. I found that whatever business, whatever entity I want to operate, whatever I want to grow my business, build a company, I have to provide value to the customer. When you're running a brokerage, unfortunately, the customer is the agent for the most part. I'm trying to run a very high level elite organization that agents would prefer to do business there because they feel they benefit more being there versus someone else.

[B]

You're the product. Your brokerage is the product for the agent.

[A]

100 and so what I, what I found was how do we do that right. While caring about a bunch of different things, I was fortunate that we weren't a Wall street company. We're Main street all day, man. Okay. And what Main street says is that I didn't go borrow against the farm to build the company. I didn't go raise a lot of debt and take out.

[B]

But are you saying that because you're basically saying the, the negative of the Wall street side is the pressure of return.

[A]

You have to. Yeah, you, you, you.

[B]

Does that mean that Pivot Realty Group is not about a profitable return?

[A]

I'm still, I'm, here's what I'm doing. I'm playing such a long game in this, this thing, man. Okay. And since I'm playing such a long game, I'm not worried about the monthly quarter or even yearly profit because what I've done for 21 years. If you don't put yourself in a spot where you have debt up to your eyeballs, either personally or for the business, you can make long term strategic financial investments that aren't going to have short term returns. And so if you think of an ROI, I don't have an ROI in my business that benefits Mark Perkins pocketbook in 2026, I have one that maybe over the next decade will. Right. And so because of that, I'm always looking for ways to invest to improve our company. Because if we're going against these huge conglomerates, these Wall street conglomerates, they have a lot of money.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

They can buy the cool, sexy things that look like, hey, I have this great platform. We have all the marketing in the world, we have the most intelligence and brilliance. So if I'm going to do that, I better be looking for ways for me to innovate every day. And unfortunately, innovation cost a lot of money. And so I wasn't solving for. Let me make a $10 million return on my effort within three years. I wasn't solving for that. I tried to say as an agent, what is going to benefit an agent that makes them want to be here, that's going to help change their life, that's going to increase their oi. That's going to increase their investment and have them get a referral system that's built that if they're putting 60 hours a week in for the first three years, it eventually can be 25 hours a week where they can double and triple their income and live the life that we're talking about. So it couldn't be about solving for a financial metric short term, because anybody that starts a brokerage right now that thinks that they're going to make millions of dollars just because they have some great idea, it's not going to happen. It's a really hard business now.

[B]

It's extremely. In very thin margins. Very thin margins. Because what the brokerage used to be able to provide. Not that, not that an agent can get everything, but they can almost get everything on their own because of how the innovation of technology has taken place. Well, I still want to almost go a little deeper on the thought of like how do you. Because the struggle is, I think of Acre Brothers Realty. So we made the naming mistake. So hopefully it won't kill us.

[A]

No, that's what we should all have is debate.

[B]

Yeah, I don't. I do see what you're saying. Stephen and I have talked about this before. It's like Acre Brothers being in the name and now that we're building the team, it just, it doesn't. But then you have the Keller Williams. Right. That was Gary Keller and then what's his name, Williams, that came together. So I think it can work. But regardless, I'm curious how you present the value prop to the agents. Because everything you just said, I know what you're saying and I think the audience does too, and they agree with it. But it does feel like every brokerage says that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How are you finding that you're being able to what's working for you and trying to showcase that or deliver it? Like, what mechanisms are you using? Is it one on one coaching sessions with the agents because there's only 200. Is it showing them at the all staffs that you have? Here's what we invested in. Like, how are you displaying that heart to the agents through your actions?

[A]

I'll be honest with you, I don't, I don't think we're displaying it enough. Because even though this doesn't come from the side that most people, when I say it, we have a service mindset inside this business. Yeah. And what I hope is when we get to a thousand agents, because we will, I hope that we still have this service mindset that we don't get so diluted in the management of the business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But this service mindset, there's nothing that's not on the table to help change somebody's life.

[B]

So it's really a people centric business for you. Like do you meet, how often do you meet with your agents?

[A]

Me and the core leadership I have in the company, who every one of them I hired brought them into the business. Train in the pivot way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Help them become six figure earners. Those people that came up through the company are now leaders in the company. So me, so me and those leaders. Right. These weren't recruited from some other company. No. You built them 100%. Yeah, 100%. It's not just me, but the system and the culture built them. Right. And so be me and those people. We are interacting with double digit agents daily.

[B]

Yeah. That's what I sense from you because you know, obviously like there's so many golden nuggets that you just shared that I want, you know, people to catch. One is, is like what your activities are dictated by the game that you're playing. And Simon Sinek wrote a great book on this called the Infinite Game. And the whole concept was that, look, when you're playing football, right, there's four quarters, it's 60 minutes and there's an end and there's a scoreboard and there's certain rules to that game and you're going to play that game a certain way during that 60 minutes. But if it was an infinite football game, you're going to play that differently because it has different rules. And so you're essentially looking at your business in that way, going, hey, what is the game I'm playing? I'm not playing the Wall street game. And that's critical. And this comes down to. We had a great interview with Garrett Maroon, who's a friend of mine, and he talked about knowing the game you're playing in terms of your definition of success, because success can be defined differently for different people and that will dictate your actions. So you're playing a different game because you care more about building up the business versus like recruiting it in. So building these people from scratch. And you care more about the people than you care about your Profits. Because that is what success looks like for you. It seems like I'm just reading between the lines. You correct me if I'm wrong. Seems like you are doing a lot of one on one coaching and that you almost would consider yourself the chief coach at Pivot Real Estate.

[A]

I used to be, but I have a guy, a right hand guy that does that more than me now.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because if you're going to scale a business and we're going to be that plugged in culturally, you have to develop more talent that continue to provide that level of value. The struggle is to find people who care as much as much, not just about humans, but the culture that believe in it as much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because if you're going to scale this to it was tough to get to 200, we're going to scale to 500, we're going to scale to a thousand. We have to develop another four or five or six or seven of those people. But yeah, to your point about what you were saying about the infinite game, listen, I have no problem on challenging. Most brokerages are scared to challenge the number one or two agent. What are you talking about? No, I'm not. I'm going to challenge everybody to become the best form of themselves every day. I know that goes back to whether that's bested, but I do. And I looked at, we had a sales meeting, there were 40 or 50 people that showed up, maybe 60 before we came to NYC and then here to Philly this week. And in there I said, hey you all, I'm willing to be the contrarian when it comes to teams in this world. I think too many people think that they're team leaders. I'm all about if you, if you're capable of being a team leader. But what's that mean? It means that you shouldn't start a team that other people join you to serve you. That's not why they're joining your team. Hmm. Other agents, they, they only join your team when they're struggling or someone else that thinks that they can improve by being around you. No one is going to join your team to say, let me help make Mark make more money. Let me help Luke the Luke the Cres. Let me help them make more money and build a bigger brand. They think you're going to help them.

[B]

Agree.

[A]

So if that's what they want, your goal has to be I have to care more about them and their outcome than mine. And what I'm telling you is that's our brokerage model. So imagine who you have to be As a team leader inside pivot, imagine what you have to bring to the table. Because if that's what we're doing from a brokerage standpoint, you better be the elite, elite, elite level team, because other than that, our agents don't need you as a team leader. We're the best team leader in the business and unfortunately, build a team. I don't care even what that means these days, Right. I don't go, make a lot of money, change your life, brand yourself. But brokerages used to be the team when this industry was built up. The brokerage fulfilled that responsibility. And because this has gone Wall street and it's about making quarterly profits, the brokerages have given up on their responsibility to care and develop.

[B]

Do you think it's gone Wall street, or do you think what's happened is technology has evolved or. Here's my take, is that the brokerage was kind of, in essence, the mega team, because the brokerage would put the, the funds forward to get the software and to deal with the liability and all that stuff. And what's happened over time is that technology pricing has come down. Now you can go buy FOB, but you can go buy KVCore, right. Which it used to be. The brokerage was the one that's going to provide that to you, in essence.

[A]

Oh, I'm sorry, we still do.

[B]

And all right. And all that.

[A]

Don't charge your agents. I'm sorry.

[B]

Yeah, well, most brokerages don't. Most brokerages don't charge.

[A]

We don't have a tech fee. I'm sorry.

[B]

But essentially what's happened is, right, And I see this with, like Stephen, right, at Keller Williams Brand. Is that the team, the talented person, the Steven of the world, right? Or whoever yourself, they realize, oh, I can, I can. Why am I paying the splits? I'm paying or why am I doing what? Why don't I go and actually build my own mini, you know, brokerage in essence.

[A]

So we've asked the question, what's a broke? What is a brokerage?

[B]

That is the question.

[A]

See, I don't see a brokerage is there just to provide just the tech. I don't think the brokerage is there just to hang the sign on the building. I don't think the brokerage is there just to defend us from legal. I don't think. I think the brokerage is supposed to develop people. I think what the brokerage is supposed to be the team leader that cares about taking the agent from 120,000.

[B]

But how do you, but how do you practically do that to be, you know, devil's advocate. It's like, that sounds great, but how do you do it? Because you've done it. Well, to your credit, man, you got 200 people. That is freaking ridiculously hard to do. And it's hard to do when you're, you're not like picking what other. Yeah. Like you're not recruiting agents, you're building them from non licensed people. That's crazy. So I just go, but how, how do you actually do that? Because it sounds great.

[A]

What do you want? Let me ask you this. If you want to be an employee again from being an entrepreneur.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What would you want from your leaders inside the company?

[B]

I would want advice. I would want them to show me like how to do something. So if I need help on a listing presentation, let's say I would want them to show me the listing presentation because I can R and D, rip off and duplicate. Right. Success leaves clues. I would want them to try to tell me the potholes that I haven't seen yet because they've seen them and they've walked them and they've already walked the steps that I want to do. That's what I would be hoping for. Things like that.

[A]

Then that's what people should solve for when they're creating brokerages and creating teams. Nothing we just said was about a brand of a company. Nothing that we just said was about helping that person market themselves.

[B]

Well, that's not because I don't think I would not want a brand. It's just that we all know that the brand really isn't making the difference for the consumer on Main street to.

[A]

Choose or the agent being less. There's individuals, but is that done?

[B]

Have you only found the way to do that really one on one? Because do you, do you fear that you're going to struggle to do that when you get to 500, a thousand agents?

[A]

So first I don't fear anything, but I do realize there are struggles. Right. And so what we are figuring out right now is how we scale this. That's the honesty of it. How do we scale? But what I see consistently, we know there's these things in the world called the 8020 rule. Let's act like we aren't talking about real estate. You go into any sales organization that's selling anything in this world, for some reason this dynamic evolves. 20% of the people sell 80%.

[B]

And yeah, we see that in reminder media. We see it. Maybe it's not quite 20%, maybe it's 30%, but it's very close.

[A]

Right. You see that, Right? So there are these things that happen where for some reason it's not that the 80% of humans aren't quality humans. That's not the case. There's just something about the 20% or 10% or 20. They have discipline that they're willing to force themselves to do things that the other people won't do. They probably aren't even the smartest. They probably aren't.

[B]

So true.

[A]

They probably even aren't the most educated. Right. But there's something inside of them. It might be their past, their experience, their DNA, their mindset, something about that. But what I found out is in real estate, there's a middle 60%. There's really not too much I can do for the bottom 20. Man. They just literally won't work. They won't take action. There's something about.

[B]

That's none of our listeners, Mark. There's none of our listeners.

[A]

It's some of my agents, nobody.

[B]

I'm sure it's some of our listeners, but it is, you know who you are.

[A]

But the middle 60% actually looks like the bottom 20, but they're not. They just haven't found great leaders that pour into them in this industry. They used to. Now, unfortunately, it is being solved for just the rainmaker. Listen, I'm not hating on the team.

[B]

Leader or how that I see. Okay, so I'm starting to understand your thesis a little bit more. It's like most people will either focus on the rainmaker or the bottom bottom. And they really avoid. Not even avoid. But they're not focused on the one they actually should be focused on, which is the person who's doing two deals a year or three deals a year. It's like they can do it, but they're not really having an impact.

[A]

Yeah, we have no impact for the most part on the top 20. In the bottom 20 we could get. The top 20 could go anywhere. Yeah. They could go to any real estate brokerage and they would find success. The bottom 20, no one can do anything to help them.

[B]

Okay, so then I'm still trying to get at. Because I think this is for my own selfish gain. So everybody listening to this is like, have you found practically how you've done that is through personal relationship with the agent and personal one on one coaching. Or have you found other avenues to do that? Has that been the solution?

[A]

It's not just personal one on one, but there's something about whether it be a pod, a small group.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Accountability partners.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

The culture of the company truly has to be about. I'm not going to go try to hire numbers and throw a number against a wall and something's going to stick. Unfortunately, that's our industry and a lot of others. Yeah, agree. 78% not failure rate in this business. 78% quitting rate in this business with 18 months. I don't know if anybody knows that people who obtain a real estate license nationally and AR puts out these numbers all the time. Somewhere in the 70 percentile of the people that get a license in 20, 25 of all hundred percent of the people, which will be a few hundred, 78 of those individuals will quit the business and give up crazy. And it's not because they couldn't do it. It's just because they didn't know what they were getting into because someone didn't take the time to set them down on the front end and say, let me help you understand what this business is. But if you start the relationship that way and you let them know what they're coming into, what it's going to look like, what the expectations of the business and you create the relationship there, this isn't about recruiting and throwing numbers, but what the challenge is. How do you scale impact? That's what we're talking about.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. 100%.

[A]

I do think in this world of apps in AI and through avatars, I think that there will be some system that we're working on and so many others are in some way, there will be some way to interact with the middle 60 agents that truly want it, that at their quiet time at 9pm because what will happen is everybody starts out, I believe at the beginning of almost every day. We start out with goals and what we think we're going to do. I think all of us do. And then the vast majority of humans, for some reason they let the rest of the day and all the distractions take over and they don't maintain discipline on the only actionable items that matter.

[B]

So true.

[A]

We just need an app because one on one I'll change the 60% of the agents lives. If they have access to me every day for an hour or two, I will change their life. It's not that they aren't capable, they just haven't built the hardcore discipline mindset yet.

[B]

Agree.

[A]

And so if we can, I'll say when, if we can build an app based system where they're interacting with our brokerage, with our culture, with the actionable items that need to happen on a daily basis, almost like an adventure book that we were playing when we were a kid. We read when we were a kid. You can take this path. You can take this path. They need someone to usher them throughout the day, because if you can just make 10 calls or 10 interactions, if you can do a little bit of business development every day, you're probably in 12 months gonna be a 20 or 30 transaction agent. And in the marketplace that we work, that's $120,000.

[B]

Yeah, it's interesting. It's like the more and more I try to build business, and the more and more I coach agents and talk to agents, it's like, even before I get to marketing strategies and activity of, like, here's what the strategy you should focus on and where to get leads and stuff like that. It really comes down to calendar management. It's like how you run your day, like you're saying, is the most important thing. And most people are not intentional of how they run their day. And I have found with, like, agents that the biggest pain point they have is they don't have a calendar that they set because that stems from they don't know what they should be set on. That's where they need a great broker, you know, a great leader.

[A]

I'm not saying that the team environment can't work, but unfortunately, that team environment usually is focused on more units making more money. They're not saying, let me develop people. Yeah, that's what brokers are supposed to be. And they've actually given up on that. Because I'm.

[B]

Interesting. It's an interesting point. I mean, yeah, it's. I've seen it. I mean, we know of a big. I mean, we're with them, but we know, like when they said they were a tech company and not an education company, I think that was one of the biggest mistakes they made as a brand. We're.

[A]

We're a people business and a people company. That's because. Not because I want to be. Because I know what humans want.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I know what consumers want. We know what agents.

[B]

What do you still. I'm sure you do, but you still have top producers leave you.

[A]

Listen. I think so. Here's this.

[B]

Be honest, Mark. Be honest.

[A]

I'm trying to be honest and transparent. We did more in the past as we were trying to overcome the 100 agent mark and the 200 agent mark. I think every time you get to a place as an individual, you usually learn through the mistakes and you learn through the losses.

[B]

Yeah. What did you find that you were failing at as these people leave you? What have you Found. I know what we found when John left us and Lolly left Acre Brothers. I mean, I know what we realized. But you know, the company, the company.

[A]

Was too much about me.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And all of a sudden when they didn't get as much access to me, that became a problem. They weren't even open minded. Was the next person they were going to get access to? Were they as capable? They just felt like they lost something. And we did have a moment that was happening. So what I had to do was I had to build it into a professional company where the bigger idea of the culture was they matter. So I know that the companies get lost, a brokerage will get lost in that. And then it becomes about the tech, then it becomes about the operation. No, it is still about the people. But I had to have more people inside. So it had to become about Pivot and about what we're standing for as a company and how we care versus how Mark cares.

[B]

Interesting how you're wording it and I love the way you're describing it because when we grew, I think it was in our fifth year as a team, they hit 320 transactions and then we lost two top producers and one mediocre producer. And the next year we did like 220 transactions. Right. And we went through that same thing that a lot of people we, we built these people up, you know. You know, John had closed I think 80 deals that year. And most of them were, you know, obviously leads we had produced and all this stuff. But what we realized is what we lacked. And we described it as like standards of excellence. And you're describing it as like who Pivot Realty Group is to be on this team. This is who you need to be. And what we found is that we had high standards, but held very poor and loosely. So it's like we had who we wanted to be and we had the standards of it. To be on the team, you have to do this. And this is who we are. But we didn't hold to them. And it's so funny because history repeated itself. I ran that mistake with Reminder Media and didn't even see it. And we ran it in Acre Brothers too. And we're the best we've ever been right now, knock on wood. Steven and them are doing an incredible job. But it is because it is so hardcore clear of if you're going to be on this team, this is what we stand for, this is how we are, this is what you need to do to perform, to be on this team. And I think like accountability is kindness. Like clarity is kindness. Accountability is kindness because it gives you stability to know how to succeed or not and it gives you ability to know am I on the right team? But when the leader is kind of wishy washy of not holding to what they, they believe in, it gives the person kind of a wishy washy stability because they're like, half the time I feel good here. The other half the time I feel bad here. Why is that? And it's because, oh, no, no, this is who this team is. And not every team is for every person. Just like not every brokerage is for every person. But when you have clear standard of accountability, clear standard of who we are, then all of a sudden you get your, your vibe, attracts your tribe 100%.

[A]

I think every company has had these growing pains. I don't know anybody and you know, other mentors that I've had or people that I have mutual respect. There's. They all have had this problem and it was through. It didn't happen on purpose. It happens because you just, you wake up one day and you're like, how do we become this? It's like, I still care as much what's going on. But a fascinating thing like if, if we take this and not make it about my company, we, you know, there's so many successful people at every brokerage. That's what's so funny. And one of the reasons why we don't recruit traditionally, like, I like this because everybody's going to attack me and I love it. Like bring the heat. Right. But, but here's what's great. Here's why I actually fundamentally don't believe in recruiting. And you know, I have private backroom conversations with the people who are recruiting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And those people talk differently there than they do when they're recruiting.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm not ever going to say anybody's name. I wouldn't break that trust. But here's what's really funny is that why won't brokers come out and say there's really successful people at every place. You don't have to come work with me to win.

[B]

Probably because their value prop is not truly strong enough to withstand that.

[A]

I don't believe the number one agent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Should leave where they are. The interruption in marketing, the interruption in business. The questions are going to have to ask to consumers what like that you're going to. And I love what people would push back. I'm like, how is this serving your client other than the BS post that you make out on social Media about like I finally found my tribe or this. I've been waiting for this company to provide an elite web.

[B]

But isn't it a money thing? Isn't it like doesn't it all boil down to like why does somebody switch a brokerage? It's ultimately they weren't making the money they want to make.

[A]

Well that. But that's on them. And so what I heard somebody say years ago, which was awesome. They actually said, hey, you know what everybody that we're in the real estate space and 25 of agents change brokerages every year like this and like every four years. You know how we're like every seven years someone buys a new home in ar. It's, it's not an exact stat but I actually put it into chat GPT or put it how many realtors change brokerages every year? And it said, well, we don't have an exact number, but the average time that an agent stays at a brokerage is four years. If this is about careers, that's insane to me. If you change jobs every four years over your entire working life, that person is probably not going to have the level of success to where someone was at one or two places who went all in. I'll have a debate on it. But you see the top agent in our marketplace in Cincinnati, she's at the brokerage she started at. She's not chasing threshold, she's not chasing an extra $15,000 in my pocket. She's not chasing downline. And you know what? She's making more money than 98 of the people at all those companies that's trying to make it about the downline. So what do you want to be like? Do you care about being in this industry to being a high level professional to serve the consumers and serve the public. Are you in this to get rich? If you're going to get rich, go find something else. Right? You can get rich and become really, really wealthy. The way this industry used to be is become a high level professional that's extremely capable and you go out in the marketplace and you represent consumers at an elite level. How about you try that? But what somebody said was, you know what? All these people, when they change companies one day if I read out of the real estate business, I'm going to have more credibility because it's like I'm not selling to my thing. But they say, you know what? Nobody is honest with themselves about, they have to take themselves with them.

[B]

That is true. Do you like the person that you are?

[A]

Listen, because the reality is a Brokerage and a manager that I see out here in the world and these owners and Wall street with these huge. They're not going to change your individual wife. And if you think just that platform or just we all have access to it, we. My company offers KVCore. That became bold trail.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For free. Full platinum access. You could utilize that system and go all in 17 adoption rate inside my brokerage.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

At the web. And you know what we spent and.

[B]

You'Re giving it for free. Yeah.

[A]

Spend a lot of money on that.

[B]

But. But okay, let me be devil's advocate here. And I'm not.

[A]

I want you to be.

[B]

Yeah. I'm not picking on you. I'm just like for the people listening in. In us is going. You have a people centric culture, not numbers driven. You're giving for free this platform, but yet only 17 of the agents.

[A]

They'll use pieces of it. Yeah, a lot of people use piece of it. Full adoption.

[B]

But do you think that's why what happens to people is that they become number centric? Because they realize if I don't, it doesn't like I won't. I won't win on either end. If I go this route which is so people centric and so like culture centric. And you know what some would describe. It's just like feel if I go that route, I'm not going to make any money and you know I'm going to end up with the same results. This route I actually have a chance to make money and impact.

[A]

Do you think I don't make any money?

[B]

No, I think you do. But I'm just calling out the. The obvious. You get what I'm saying? It's like I don't want to use a. Well, it doesn't really matter. But let's just say it's like an exp. Or Keller Williams century 21. What your people centric. You only got 17 adoption. They're not people centric. Even though I'm just making this as an analogy. They only get 17 adoption. So is it. Is it really like a difference maker to try to be that people centric or is it really in the like it's. You almost don't have a effect almost at all. Unless it's the one on one.

[A]

All right, so to be a difference maker, what am I trying to solve for to make a difference? That's the question. My pocketbook or people's lives? Because I know you can come inside my brokerage and you will find people that are like, it changed my life not Me, the thing changed my life when how many brokers have had someone look at them and say, hey man, in October of a year and someone made six figures. That might not be a lot in New York City, but in the Midwest, where an average price point is Cincinnati, 250 is 300, 325. And someone you're walking by a desk in October and there's a smile. And if you're plugged into your people, you're like, hey man, how you doing? And you have a conversation about their production and they're like, really good. Okay, I just hit $100,000 of personal income. And I'm like, that's really good. Is that a goal? Yours are like, not just a goal. I'm the first person my family has ever done that.

[B]

You know what I love about you, man? And I can see this through the theme at launch too. And I want people to catch this is like, you are very missional minded and why mind it? And you know, result of that might be income. You obviously make great money and stuff like that, but you're very missional minded, which gives you the energy and passion to keep going and doing what you're doing. And I would argue for most people I see this in, myself included, is the people who actually are very successful, they make a mission out of what they're doing that is bigger than the monetary. I would even say some of the brokerages out there that you might even consider Wall street if you really look at their founders. Their founders are very missional minded.

[A]

I give them props.

[B]

They're very missional minded.

[A]

What's happened though? It's become about the money. And I'm not. Listen, it's just, it's just the thing. I think you could say this about a huge home improvement store versus if some mom and pop hardware store survived.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

The reason why they couldn't survive is because they can't buy the product at the level that the big ones can.

[B]

And they can't leverage the margin.

[A]

Yeah, but. So the only thing they can outpace is relationships. That's the only way they could find some niche of something that they're providing that well, you like going there because seeing the people every day, that they help you with a different level of service. Any question you have from a home and improvement, you might be willing to spend a little bit more money or they can edge someone in location and geography.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's ways. But what I'm gonna say, that's hard. You're gonna have to be a mission driven person. To win in that environment.

[B]

And that comes back to. It's how you define success. Because depending on how you define success will ultimately drive your willingness to do that. I have some rapid fire questions for you just to. To pick your brain here. I would love to know. Yes, you can. Yeah. You don't need any Red Bull, man, the amount of energy you have. So, you know, first is, you know, so agents. Right. Or majority are getting out of the business. Right. Most don't make it. What's the number one reason why you think they fail?

[A]

Because nobody has been honest with them when they first got in the business.

[B]

And that honesty is about what?

[A]

About what this business is. And this bill is. Business is about business development, prospecting, marketing, and branding.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're watching this stuff on TV and thinking it's about showing homes and making 10 and 15 and $20,000 commissions in real estate. Unfortunately, we have two jobs, we have two careers. Nobody tells them what the real career is. The real career is you got to go get the business.

[B]

Yeah. You got to be a prospector marketer.

[A]

No one tells them that. And unfortunately, the vast majority of humans haven't had the level of experience to know how to do it. And then what's happened to the. To the model of real estate? No one's there to truly train them, coach them, and care.

[B]

All right, number two question for you. Right. Is no building your chairs.

[A]

It's gonna be a really hard one.

[B]

Yeah, maybe. Okay. Knowing what you know now about building pivot.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah. What would be the thing you would do differently about what you have built?

[A]

All right, so that's a multifaceted question. I don't want the answer to this to be that I'm not passionate and totally love what we're doing, the brand and lives we're changing. But to win in an environment that is so. The margins are so slim and your people are recruited every day from a multitude of areas. It's hard to not just succeed and win and exist. It's tough to thrive. And so the question was, what would I do different? Yeah.

[B]

Looking back, built it to 200.

[A]

I'm going to be honest.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I wouldn't do it again.

[B]

Why do you say that?

[A]

Because what the world keeps on telling me is it's about financial metrics and about my own net worth, the capabilities and the commitment, the discipline that I have as an individual. I would have been number one as a realtor in my marketplace, in my space, making a few million dollars a year and what I know how to take that money and build financial security and financial wealth, I would have probably been worth three times what I am now. And I wouldn't have happened to give up, give up the segment of my life that I've had to give up to build this thing that true entrepreneurs know. However, since I made the decision I did make that sacrifice. The path that we're on now, eventually the long term outcome, if we're talking about solving for net worth, it probably will be exponential beyond being the individual agent. But what I will share is what everybody keeps telling me in this world is about this balance. All right? They want to have a family, they want to spend time with their kids, they want to enjoy the experiences of life. You can't do that at the level that society's talking about. And being an all in, an entrepreneur changing other people's lives. And so if in the beginning you could truly know and be honest about it, I probably would take more of my life back.

[B]

Yeah. It reminds me of Nvidia's founder, what's his name, Jensen or whatever. He said a similar thing. It's like, I forget how they ordered the question to him, but they were like, what would you do differently? And. And he said a similar thing, which was like, I don't think I would do it again knowing the pain that I had to go through. Because it is true. It's like there is not balance. There's harmony, usually. And it's. There's seasons, I guess is the best way to describe it. Is there seasons in life that you go through and when you're trying to build something, like I find myself in the season right now, when you're trying to build something, like, I had my VP of sales for partnerships go to a competitor. I was telling you that story. I had my CTO person resign on me. And at the same time, we were rearranging all of our sales. We're cutting some things. So I'm like interim cto, VP of Sales for partnerships. At one point I was doing a. A write up on a tech thing. The next second I was calling a corporate relationship. And it's just like so overwhelming. And so I'm in a season that is more overwhelming right now. And then there'll be a season of peace.

[A]

You know what happens about those seasons, though? It's the level of human that you become more capable of when you go through the tough seasons. So the next time that season comes around, you already know how to do it. Yeah, right. And so what's great about it, what's funny is you Know, we watch all these TV shows, and all the superstars of real estate are driven around in the Range Rovers and. And these extended Escalades and all that. I found myself driving from New York City today, me driving the expedition. And my team gets a ride in the back, and I look over and there's.

[B]

You're like, this is a good picture of success right here.

[A]

I almost took the picture, but I didn't want to interrupt their sleep. Right. And so. But I think what you realize is what you're doing, man, when you. When you go through the seasons, because, you know, the elite people, the Tony Robbins, the Jim Rohns, a lot of people talk about the seasons of life, and they're true. But there's not one season that I go through or I'm not learning something or thriving or harvesting or reaping. But what's happened in this 21 year, 21 year journey, and what's happened years, There's a lot of people that you've really helped improve and get better, man.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And as painful as it is as a leader, sometimes this is no excuse. But the reality is, if you can look around and people on your left and your right and with you. I just asked the guy who worked at your company, who's worked for three and a half years at the chef, and I said, why here, man? Because we're all free agents. He went, I love being here. And I said, why you creating an environment and being responsible every day that those people get to come to find a home professionally, to feel that way.

[B]

Yeah. And think about what he said, too. Did he say money?

[A]

No, he said about his family.

[B]

Yeah. I get to spend time with my family. I get to have the weekends. But here's the point. Like, I think this should be the quote of your life, Mark. And obviously, I'm just getting to know you, but I see the passion in you is like, if you want a life of significance, it comes to a life of service. And it's like a life of significance is really not about the money you make or the. The accolades you receive. Those things are great things, and they can make you feel good for a moment. But you're impacting people's lives, and that's what really has enabled you to build pivot. And I actually go, your secret sauce, as I see it, is, man. You took people who weren't real estate agents and you helped them build from the ground up. You served them all the way. And that picture of you driving your team asleep in the expedition today from New York City to. Here is the picture of your life, but that is with success.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not. I don't receive a lot of inspiration or passion from taking somebody that's already making $400,000 a year and helping to make 500. I'm just being honest. Like, we have the platform that they can do that, but that's just. They get to utilize the thing we've built.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What really fires me up, man, is to take somebody from maybe similar ways that we grew up and somebody that just hasn't. Either if they haven't found the opportunity or they haven't known, to lean into it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And to. To take that person that maybe if they otherwise wouldn't have met a couple guys like us or the other great leaders out there. There's some. There's some awesome people listening. Right. That if we wouldn't have leaned in and built the thing and gone to bed every day for him, they may not have the chance to change their life the way that they do. And when I look around and I'm like, it's worth it. Right? It's worth it. Even though I wouldn't go back, and I'd go back and tell the guy, like, make it a little bit easier.

[B]

How could people connect with you, man?

[A]

Just go to pivotrealty.com we actually bought my website domain recently, markperkins.com and I spent money to buy it. I never bought a domain. And we don't have anything on it, so don't go there. But you can find us on. On social media. We have a. We have a podcast.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's called the Necessary Entrepreneur. See, it's not real estate, but I feel this responsibility that find out what you want in your life and then identify the necessary tactics you have to employ and go do it. So it was necessary for me to live the life I wanted to live. It was necessary that become an entrepreneur. Not. Not real estate. Not. And I throw this out about this passion thing. I know we're wrapping it up, but a guy like Richard Branson, I don't. I don't. I don't fanboy like anybody. It's something weird about me, but I respect what they've done. You know, that guy had dyslexia, like, and he built Virgin Records in England. I think he was, like, 18 years old, and he built that company. You know, a lot of people, like, find your passion. You'll never work a day in your life. Virgin isn't Virgin Records. It's Virgin Records. It's Virgin Atlantic, the airline. It's Virgin Galactic going to space. He has his island that people pay to go to. He has all the. His passion is about finding something that could be improved and you could do better and go all in. He looks for experiences. So this idea about real estate, this wasn't about the necessary entremore isn't about real estate. But it was necessary that I took full responsibility my life and controlled the outcome to the level that we have the ability and capability and take action every day. And if you do that, I think you'll wake up in five or 10 years and you'll be really happy that that old you did the hard work so that you can currently be living this life with the capability we have.

[B]

Well said, man. Well said. Guys, go check out Mark. You guys know as you're listening to Stay Paid, the thing we ask you to do is to share it with a friend. That's our one request for. For you just being listeners. It helps us spread the show. You can find everything on Spotify. You can find [e-mail] you can find it on itunes or wherever you listen to your podcast. And here's my action item for you from this podcast. Right? So we talked about a bunch of different stuff you learned from Mark's journey. You could hear the passion behind him and trying to make this industry in this life more than just about a number. And I would ask you right now to think this week it would be a great exercise to sit down and go, hey, you know, who am I treating in my life just as a number, and why am I doing that? And find the people in your life. Because oftentimes I do this. It's like I think about my VP of sales that left, and I go, hey, man, I can complain and be mad they went to my competition, but at the end of the day, I missed something. I missed something. They felt like a number, and I just wasn't present enough to see that. And when I'm listening to Mark's story and his passion and then building pivot and everything he's doing, I'm going, wow. The big action item is, am I treating anybody just like a number in my life right now and not seeing them as a person and taking them to that next level? Remember the difference between top producers and mediocre producers in every business is top producers. Take action. Take action on that today.

[A]

Sam.