Dr. Henry Cloud (2:28)

But.

Madison Pruitt Trout (2:28)

Welcome to the Stay True podcast.

Dr. Henry Cloud (2:30)

Good to be here.

Madison Pruitt Trout (2:31)

I'm so excited for this. And I did just find out that you live here near me. Near me.

Dr. Henry Cloud (2:36)

I do.

Madison Pruitt Trout (2:36)

I'm like. For some reason I was thinking he was in Dallas, Texas, but this is fun. This is a lot of amazing people.

Dr. Henry Cloud (2:41)

I was in LA for. I went to school in Dallas, but then after that I went to LA for my training. Got stuck.

Madison Pruitt Trout (2:47)

Got stuck. Got stuck. And you've written how many books at this point in your life?

Dr. Henry Cloud (2:52)

I don't know. You don't even know it's 40 something, but.

Madison Pruitt Trout (2:56)

Unreal. Unreal. And what got you into psychology? What was that journey like? Did that start at smu?

Dr. Henry Cloud (3:03)

Yeah.

Madison Pruitt Trout (3:03)

Okay.

Dr. Henry Cloud (3:06)

I hit bottom. I had. I had been recruited to play golf in college and then I had an injury and I wasn't playing well because all that. And I had to quit halfway through. And I got really, really depressed. And when I say depressed, I mean like non functionally depressed. And so that's when I came to faith in a deeper way. And then as I was starting to climb out of that hole, or God was pulling me out of that hole, I was learning a lot. And I got really interested in a lot of that content and started reading a lot. And I was a business, accounting and finance major, changed my major halfway through. And God called me into this field. I knew nothing about it, but he told me to go into psychology. And so I went.

Madison Pruitt Trout (3:56)

It's amazing. It's incredible. And this past weekend, one of the books you've written on or one of the books you've written about is dating. And this past weekend, I think you talked about the dating dilemma. And like I joked about earlier, my team, who is all single, was sitting there and taking notes and. And we were actually texting about it this morning. I was like, what? Cause I was sitting backstage. Cause I was going on right after this. It's like short talks. I've never had to speak in nine minutes.

Dr. Henry Cloud (4:20)

It's horrible.

Madison Pruitt Trout (4:21)

Nine minutes.

Dr. Henry Cloud (4:22)

No, it goes by like a. I didn't.

Madison Pruitt Trout (4:25)

I couldn't even tell a story. See, you were good at like dropping some jokes. I was like, I don't even know how to drop a joke. Like, I gotta go. I gotta dive straight into the. Which I was talking about Revelation. So there was not really much joking there, just straight into the book of Revelation.

Dr. Henry Cloud (4:37)

You're so Cliff Notes. They've been trying to figure that one out for 2,000 years.

Madison Pruitt Trout (4:41)

I mean, I mean, but nine minutes will challenge you. But you talked about the dating dilemma. And I want to bring up something you talked about because I was so fascinated by it. You said that you were having a conversation with someone and you told her that in six months you could guarantee.

Dr. Henry Cloud (4:57)

I guaranteed her, yeah.

Madison Pruitt Trout (4:58)

That she would find a date and that she would.

Dr. Henry Cloud (5:01)

I said, that you will be dating in six months, I guarantee. In fact, ultimately I fell into this thing by accident. I did not as a kid. I want to be a date. I'm not a dating coach. But I kept running into women who were asked me, why aren't we dating? We want to be dating and we're not dating. I go, I don't know. And then finally, after enough times, I said, but you know what, there's got to be a reason. I'm going to crack the code on this. And I literally did a year long research, put dating groups together all over the country and researched it and figured out there are reasons why they're stuck and ended up. I was talking about it one day and my publisher said, you have to write this down. So I wrote the book how to Get a Date Worth Keeping.

Madison Pruitt Trout (5:42)

Wow. What were the reasons that so many are stuck and not dating?

Dr. Henry Cloud (5:46)

Well, there's a bunch of them, but you can kind of put them in a couple of categories. And among Christians, one of the big ones is bad theology. They hear all the time, all the time, you know, well, you just. God will bring him to you, or God will bring her. You know, Matthew 6 says that God provides for us the birds of the air and he feeds them well, they gotta get out of the nest and go where the bugs are. And a lot of times they're just sitting there kind of waiting. And so one of them was getting them past their inactivity. And I go into this in detail, but if you look at a lot of people's and they're stuck, but their traffic pattern, I'll have them do an audit of their traffic pattern and ask the question, how many new guys or new women are you getting in front of or meeting or talking to on a regular basis? And they go, no, I go to work, I come home, I eat dinner with my roommate. Saturday I run errands. Sunday I go to church. And the answer is basically zero. And then they think they're going to find them in church. And my research never happens, hardly. I mean, talk to all the people you know that are married, say, where did you meet your spouse? And rarely will you hear church, but they're going to church, like a feeding trough, and there's no food there. I mean, you're sitting in rows facing forward. You go in and go out and hope somebody notices you. Anyway, so part of it was I had to get them active, but then you have to have a strategy like anything else. But then what we found, and part of why I wanted to get them active was when you get them active, then their issues start to emerge and you find out that a lot of people are incredible with their friends, but they get on a date or meet somebody, whatever, and they go for this. I mean, it's like the switch turns off. They become less of who they are. And there's anxiety, some have trauma from, you know, and so there's a lot of internal work. The Bible says it, from our heart will come the issues of life. And so if an issue in your life is you're not dating, there's some internal work that's probably got to be done.

Madison Pruitt Trout (8:08)

Wow.

Dr. Henry Cloud (8:08)

And certainly God is timing. But do you want to wander into the desert for 40 years? I mean, it was a short trip. They could have been, yeah. But our issues get in the way.

Madison Pruitt Trout (8:19)

Wow, that's so interesting because I. Because I hear from so many, I have a lot of, like, single people around me in my life here, even just in Tennessee. And so many. I feel like of the comments from females is just like, there's no good godly guys left.

Dr. Henry Cloud (8:33)

Oh, my gosh.

Madison Pruitt Trout (8:36)

Do you shake your head at that? Like, what is your response to that?

Dr. Henry Cloud (8:38)

First of all, God is not held shackled by your circumstances. Okay, I'll tell you a story. I was speaking in la and we opened up to Q and A, and it wasn't even about dating. But some lady had the question. She said, well, you know, dating's hard. And I said, why? Listen, there's 25 million people in Southern California. She said, because there's no good ones out there. You know, in la, everybody's so transient and nobody's got roots and, you know, they're in. And it'd be a lot easier. Dating would be easier if I were in the Midwest where people are connected, networks of people that, you know, and family. Two nights later, I'm speaking in Chicago. A lady says, well, you know, dating's not working here. There's no, you know, in the Midwest. Everybody's known everybody forever. It'd be a lot better, like in a place like la, you can't blame the external circumstances. Google wedding chapels. There's a wedding happening every weekend, so it's not impossible. You just need a different plan.

Madison Pruitt Trout (9:48)

Wow. So you. So in your book we were talking.

Dr. Henry Cloud (9:50)

About last month, but I do want to comment on that. Okay, okay. Okay. Okay. And women, I want to sort of. And guys, I want to kind of, you know, talk to you for a second here. I do hear from a lot of women in their. Let's call it 25 to 35. And they say that. And I started asking about them and there are a lot of guys out there. I'm gonna get hate mail about this. But fine. Who are still little boys. In fact, I was gonna, I was gonna do this thing called boyfriend boot camp.

Madison Pruitt Trout (10:27)

Probably should. That sounds. Yeah.

Dr. Henry Cloud (10:28)

Because a lot of them, it's time to become a grown up. And being a little boy, you want the girlfriend to be like your mother. And they're looking for somebody that shows up with game. And so there is a lot of that. There is a lot of that. And then it's so funny, the guys say, well, you know, all they care about is they want the fancy job and the, you know, the money and the. And that's just not true. What they want is somebody that connects with them so deeply in an engaging way and is inspiring in some way and is competent in life and everything else kind of dwindles. You know, the job description of a husband is way different than the job description of a boyfriend.

Madison Pruitt Trout (11:20)

That's true.

Dr. Henry Cloud (11:21)

And so you gotta be kind of aware of that from both sides.

Madison Pruitt Trout (11:26)

In your book A Date.

Dr. Henry Cloud (11:28)

I can't believe we're talking about that book. Was just.

Madison Pruitt Trout (11:31)

No, but I have, but it's. I, I want to know because this is so cool to me because you talked about this on stage. I think was this like six month, you know, guarantee of, you know, they. If you read this book, there's a six month guarantee that you will. What is it? Have it. Find a date worth keeping.

Dr. Henry Cloud (11:47)

No, you will be dating in six months.

Madison Pruitt Trout (11:50)

You'll be dating because a lot of.

Dr. Henry Cloud (11:51)

People say, I'm not dating. And you'll be dating. Even if you are dating, you'll be dating differently, man. Because. But you got to change your paradigm.

Madison Pruitt Trout (12:00)

Yep.

Dr. Henry Cloud (12:00)

Because a lot of singles are out there. There. You hear something? No, he's not my type or she's not my type or I'm not going to go out with anybody unless it's potential for whatever. Well, first of all, your type is probably built on pathology. People have types that get constructed out of their own issues. Either what you're familiar with or what you're lacking and want to connect with or what you idealize and. Or it could be trying to keep you safe in some way away from a certain kind of person that you know there's a chapter in there, if it's safe, go out with anyone once and maybe twice. Because you've got to treat data. You're not on a safari trying to land a trophy. Dating is. You need to see it as a valuable activity of spending time with other humans, getting to know people, having that experience. You'll find out more about yourself, you'll find out more about. You'll run into that. I never knew. Gosh, that's really cool. That quality. I didn't know that that was. And, and everything expand. How many times do you talk to people who say, I never thought I'd end up with somebody like I married because they got out of their type.

Madison Pruitt Trout (13:17)

That's so fascinating. Well, this is not what we're talking about on today's episode, but I wanted to start here because I was so fascinated by what you're talking about.

Dr. Henry Cloud (13:25)

But I will tell you, I. I know I ruffle feathers with this guy. Has all their little theological and whatever paradigms. I wish I'd kept track because it's been. I wrote that book a long time ago, but I know, I mean, without a doubt, hundreds and hundreds. It's probably in the thousands of letters and emails and couples walk up to me all the time when I'm speaking and they hold up their rings and they go, it was the book. And they got active and they worked on it.

Madison Pruitt Trout (13:53)

Incredible. Praise God. That's amazing. And we joked before this too, that, you know, maybe we should start our a Christian dating show and he's going to be the. The dating coach.

Dr. Henry Cloud (14:03)

Well, remember, remember when God was telling him, I've I've got the promised land for you. So paraphrasing the Hebrew here. He sent them out to Google it, right? Sent 12 people to go check it out. Ten of them said, there's no good ones out there. And Joshua and Caleb said, with God, we're going to climb over this wall, we're going to fight the battles and we're going to do some hard stuff. And what else do you say? I'm not going to give it to you all at once. It's going to be little by little. So get in the process and start to learn.

Madison Pruitt Trout (14:39)

Hey, friends, it's Maddie. If you've read my new book, Dare to be True, I would love to hear what you think. Your reviews mean so much to me. They help more people discover the message and the heart behind this book. So if this book hasn' encouraged you, challenged you, or reminded you to live with bold faith and honesty, would you just take a minute to leave a review? It truly makes such a difference. And if you haven't gotten my new book yet, Dare to Be True, you can go and find it anywhere books are sold. Thank you so much for being a part of this journey and for daring to be true right alongside me. Stay True Merch Drop. We got a new Stay True Merch collection, you guys. And this is my favorite collection yet. I am wearing the jersey from the Stay True Merch collection. And you guys, it is so amazing. It says Stay True on the front, Stay free on the back. It's got John 8:32. It is the coolest jersey you've ever seen. But we have sweatshirts, we got T shirts. This is seriously my favorite collection yet. This is the perfect Christmas gift, birthday gift, New Year gift to yourself. You guys, you need to check out this new collection. I'm so excited about it. And you can go to Stay True podcast dot com. We'll also include the link to the exact merch landing page in the show notes. You guys gotta go and check it out. Let me know what you think. If you rep it, tag us. We wanna see it. Go and check it out you guys.

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Dr. Henry Cloud (15:59)

Drewski, live with your legs, man.

Madison Pruitt Trout (16:01)

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Dr. Henry Cloud (16:04)

I'm not that.

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Right, Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list.

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Madison Pruitt Trout (16:58)

So good. Well, we are coming to the end of a year and about to start a new year. And I know that for a lot of people, even for myself, like, I love to reflect on the past year, kind of dream and think forward of the new year. And so you have a book called Necessary Endings. You also.

Dr. Henry Cloud (17:16)

And I've got. Actually about that. I've got a. I got a book coming out in a couple months called your desired future.

Madison Pruitt Trout (17:22)

Your desired future.

Dr. Henry Cloud (17:23)

Well, really, we'll give a path for.

Madison Pruitt Trout (17:25)

That because you will you. And you talk about unnecessary endings. Like in order to get the future that you want to have, like, some things need to come to an end. And I want to talk about that because I think for a lot of people we have these high hopes, but those hopes never get met because of maybe the habits we're stuck in, maybe the things that we're allowing to continue in our life that are limiting our ability to step into all that God has for us. And so I would love to talk about as we're headed into a new year, how do you know if something needs to end? Whether that's a relationship, whether that's a job situation, whatever that may be. How do you know something needs to come to a necessary ending? And then how do you approach, you know, taking that next step to create that necessary ending?

Dr. Henry Cloud (18:12)

It's the right question, you know, but I'm gonna play with your words here a little bit. Cause you said, how do you know something needs to end? The problem is it doesn't. It's don't have a need or it still wouldn't be there. Right? If it's a relationship, obviously the relationship, the other person's who, you know, they're not crying to end this thing. The habit patterns aren't crying to end this. The question is, what do you need to end? And I think the book is called Necessary Endings. The book starts out with a sentence, something like, the biggest enemy of your future may be today. That something is in your life today that is keeping you from your future. And the best way ask that question is, what is it in your life today that doesn't align with the future that you want? Because what's in our lives should always be something that is giving life. And life begets life. And it's something that should be taking us somewhere. And a lot of times people are dissatisfied, but they haven't gotten to one of the best things that you can experience. You know, hope is a great virtue, but hope has an objective reason to be hopeful. Our hope is in God, but we have objective reasons for that. And a lot of people say, well, I hope next year is different, or I hope there's no objective reason to think that it's going to be any different unless there is. What they're really doing is wishing. And so what you've got to figure out is you've really got into. You've got to get to the moment of hopelessness. And that's where you're putting your arms around whatever you've been doing. That's not changing. There's no reason that it's going to change. And realize what you've been doing and hoping for is not going to happen unless there's some reason for you to think it's going to happen. And so you got to realize, if I continue this, I really can't have hope. I've got to end this so I can have some objective reasons to hope. And, you know, a bad relationship, there are unnecessary endings. A lot of times people are in a bad relationship, you see this all the time, and they divorce for reasons that don't have to end in divorce. But what they've been trying has come to a moment of hopelessness. And it may be that a pattern has to end. And a lot of times in a lot of areas of life, the way you've been trying to fix it is not going to work. And there are ways that do have hope. A lot of times in relationships, we can't control another person. But some of the patterns that we've been trying, when the patterns change, then we can have hope, even for fools. You know, the Bible talks about wise people. You have a problem with them, you tell them, they say, I'm sorry, I'll change. And they do fools, it says, you tell them, I feel alone in our relationship. And they start attacking you, they get defensive, they invalidate you, they gaslight you and all of that. And you've been trying to love them out of that. Well, that's, that's not what the Bible says to do with a fool. But there are hope. There's hope for fools when they, you get on a different program and they start to experience some consequences. That's what boundaries are about.

Madison Pruitt Trout (21:54)

Yeah, let's talk, let's talk boundaries for a second because one of your best selling books, Boundaries, has sold, I mean, how many crazy millions and millions and millions of copies. And I, I do believe it's because a lot of times we don't know how to put boundaries in place. And also, we don't know when we need boundaries or how to have the conversation around boundaries with people. It can be really hard conversations to have. We don't know who's supposed to start the conversation. Maybe if you're in dating, it's like, okay, does the guy lead that. You know, if you're in a. It's a. If it's a family dynamic, does the guy lead, like, the conversation around boundaries and dating?

Dr. Henry Cloud (22:30)

Well, depends on what kind of boundaries we're talking about, too, you know? So you don't know. Don't know when a boundary is needed or how to. How to set boundaries. It's really interesting because how does. How old is your little one now?

Madison Pruitt Trout (22:45)

She's eight months.

Dr. Henry Cloud (22:46)

She's eight months. All right. Right now she doesn't know how to set boundaries. Well, she kind of does.

Madison Pruitt Trout (22:50)

Yeah.

Dr. Henry Cloud (22:51)

You know that when she's in distress, what does she do?

Madison Pruitt Trout (22:57)

Okay.

Dr. Henry Cloud (22:58)

She is. She is saying, I don't like the way I'm feeling. I want you to do something. Well, even in infancy, this is fascinating. God has wired into everyone because we're in his image, two basic words, yes and no. You take a preverbal baby, what do they do when. Something pleasurable, something good, what do you do? You see them, they're saying yes, and they move into it. If something feels bad, what do they do? They turn their heads and they start saying no. Well, in the second year, you're about to run into this, that baby's gonna learn a word. It's called no. And you'll get so sick of hearing it, because they'll learn it, and they'll be like, her name is Hosanna. Hosanna. No, no. I used to say to Olivia, our first one, I said, I got Olivia. Breathe. No, I mean, they just love the word. Yeah, but then people's boundaries get broken and that no muscle atrophies, and they can't get the words out, and they can't say no even when inside it's, you know, there's distress. Somebody's hurting them in their heart, mind, soul, or in other ways. Your heart, mind, and soul. Hebrews 5:14 says that solid food, which life is adult life, is solid food. Right. Is for the mature, who, through practice, have learned to have their senses trained to discern good from evil. A lot of people have been talked out of their senses. They come from a family where. Well, that didn't hurt. You're getting gaslighted. You've been talked out. I thought it hurt, I guess. Wow. It doesn't. Internally, you've got way too high of pain tolerance for putting up with stuff or irresponsible people that aren't carrying their load in their relationship. And you're codependent, you're doing everything for them and making up the slack for where that that ought to be falling in their yard. And fears of rejection, fears of abandonment, sometimes not having the skills to know, like you said, how to actually say the sentences, which isn't hard. But when you learn, it helps that they're having a lot of stuff happen in relationships, in life that's not okay. And a lot of times it's a Christian problem. One of the reasons I think the book, you know, hit a nerve was Christians have been taught half the Bible. Loving, forgiving, forbearing, patient, long suffering, all of that stuff, which is true. God has all of those loving characteristics. But in the Psalms it says that in God, mercy, righteousness have met, indeed they have kissed each other. God's love always has expectations of how it's got to be done. Love without proper boundaries will destroy love. It's codependency, enabling. It's all that kind of stuff. Follow somebody as its boundaries and they're not loving when they say no. And work out conflict, that'll destroy relationships. So the growth path is to learn, you know what? I don't like what's going on. You just stepped on my toe. And can you not do that anymore? Well, then a loving person is going to go, gosh, I'm sorry, won't do that again. And we move on. That's what Matthew 18 says. But sometimes they don't. And then that's where go to the scriptures. You kind of start to ratchet it up. And ultimately, I mean, somebody's abusive or, you know, you might have to say, can't stop you from continuing to. To hurt me like this. But I. Because I can't. You don't put boundaries on someone. You put boundaries on yourself. We have self control, not other control.

Madison Pruitt Trout (27:20)

Wow.

Dr. Henry Cloud (27:21)

So it's time to say, I can't stop you from doing that. But if you're going to be screaming at me, I'm not going to have this conversation. Or if you can't have a conversation where you don't keep invalidating everything that I'm saying, I won't have this conversation with you. I will go with you to our pastor or to a counselor. I'll do that. You always have control. Unless you need to call 911 or go to a shelter you always have control of. You can remove yourself from anything. And the Bible is clear about that over and over and over. I mean, almost all of Paul's letters is that certain kinds of people don't associate with them. David said in Psalm 101, there are certain people I won't have anything to do with. The unfaithful, the liars, the ones that pervert love, the ones that are judgmental and narcissistic. He lists a whole list. He said, I'm going to have anything to do with them. Then he says this. He says, the faithful of the land will minister to me and dwell with me. He chose safe people and sometimes necessary endings. Sometimes after going through all the all you can do, sometimes it's time that, you know, done all I can do, I'm going to have to say goodbye.

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Madison Pruitt Trout (29:10)

Yeah, and I see, I think for a lot of people it feels easier. Not always easier, but sometimes it is easier to say goodbye or have those conversations or have the necessary ending with a friend or a relationship. But what can get really hard or tricky with family is, you know, you didn't necessarily just go choose them. You were born into the family, having those hard conversations with family members. Or you know, maybe it's like some.

Dr. Henry Cloud (29:35)

People right now, what are we, 29 December, they're remembering that last week, right.

Madison Pruitt Trout (29:40)

With holidays and which just creates a whole, a whole lot of emotions around that. And you know, I think for some people, maybe they got saved. They weren't raised in a Christian home. They got saved, but their parents aren't saved. There's a lot of toxic, or sometimes.

Dr. Henry Cloud (29:54)

We were raised in dysfunctional Christian or.

Madison Pruitt Trout (29:56)

Dysfunctional Christian homes because maybe their parents and what they saw, you know, influenced their parenting. And so how, how do you have the hard conversations and create boundaries with your own family members?

Dr. Henry Cloud (30:10)

Well, first of all, I'm assuming you're over 18, right? In that conversation. First thing you got to realize is the Bible says honor your parents. So we have to, you know, they're in a different category than everybody in our lives. But it says children obey your parents. Well, you're not a child anymore and you got to start there. If you're an adult, you are God's child. God has no grandchildren. And so Galatians 4 says, when we were children, we were under manage guardians and managers. They're no longer supposed to be managing your life. You are. And back to the dating thing. There's a lot of not cleaving that's going on because nobody's leaving.

Madison Pruitt Trout (30:56)

Yeah, that's true.

Dr. Henry Cloud (30:58)

I mean, there is a date, Galatians 4 says, set by the father, where, you know, we have the bar mitzvah or the bar mitzvah, we kick you out of here. So you're on your own, pal. You can come back for a sandwich is what my dad told me.

Madison Pruitt Trout (31:09)

Come back for a sandwich.

Dr. Henry Cloud (31:10)

But we aren't, we aren't approaching this from an adult perspective. Okay, so that, that's number one. But what happens is in families, that's where you are wired. And so that's where guilt messages may still have a speed dial in your head. That's where all of these afraid that you know they're going to be upset with you and people pleasing and all this kind of stuff. So what you've got to do first is you got to sit down and say, I'm an adult. And here's a good, here's a good one. Who are the stakeholders in my life? You've got your family of origin. If you're married now, your primary stakeholder is your spouse. And if you have kids, I mean, that's number one. Then you've got your community, you've got your career, you've got your pursuits. All of those stakeholders have got to eat from this plate. And you've got to, you know, the Bible says to give as you've purposed in your heart. So you're giving time and energy and all that. And you want to not begrudgingly or under compulsion, not from pressure or internal voices. You gotta figure out, well, how much is reasonable and what kinds of things do I want to give to my family of origin? Just because you got an addicted adult sibling keeps you wanting to bail them out all the time just because they're family. You wouldn't even. That's just wrong biblically. And so it's really important to realize you're an adult now. That relationship has changed and you've got to appropriately budget what you're going to do now. That's even on the good side, but you get into the dysfunctional side and there is no reason for you to be giving in to control, manipulation, even sometimes abuse, criticizing your dreams, all that kind of stuff. Jesus said something that's funny. He said something really powerful one day actually, whenever he opened his mouth. But one day he said, they said, your mother and brother sisters are waiting for you. And he turned and he said, who are my mother and brother and sisters? In other words, who's my family? Those who do the will of God. And so when people are doing crappy stuff to you, there's just nothing that says that's honoring of anybody to give into that. But specifically you're talking about budgeting. You gotta budget your time and energy. And sometimes maybe it's not good for you to go to Thanksgiving at their house this year or Christmas or whatever. And here's the thing, you're gonna get pushback. So you said how to say it when you tell em, you know, for our family, what we need to do this year is this. And then they, after all we've done for you and all this kind of stuff or whatever comes. Simple formula, empathize and hold the limit. In other words, I know that's, I understand that's sad and frustrating, but we are going to have to do this. Well, how could you? I know it's hard and I'm sorry it bugs you and hurts or whatever, but this is something we need to empathize and same thing you do with a toddler because what you're getting is toddler behavior from an adult body. Basically. Somebody can't hear. No.

Madison Pruitt Trout (34:48)

Yeah. Wow, that's really good. And I know so many people taking notes and they're like, I'm gonna literally quote that and say that next time. So that's super helpful. Has there been, have you had to go through moments like this with your, with your kids yet where they've had to have some of these conversations? Or are you like I.

Dr. Henry Cloud (35:05)

With us?

Madison Pruitt Trout (35:06)

Yeah. No, because, because you understand the boundaries.

Dr. Henry Cloud (35:12)

Well, I mean, I'm not saying we're perfect parents, but. We always valued that. What do you raise a kid to do and to be, you know, the. What is it something in the wings that they're going to launch and when they, when they get to be. When they hit about 13ish, it's amazing. Up until then, kids are like this towards you and one day the switch goes off and they do this and they start to draw a lot and they should a lot of their. And you want them, their community, they should be listening to their youth pastor with a parental kind of esteem. Right. They're getting coaches, they're getting mentors and their peer group becomes very important. That's why it's so important for you to, when you have the teenage years to realize what you're doing is this is training ground for adulthood and you're not going to be there in this adult. And they've got to develop the skills to have their own life. I don't know, just to answer your question, I don't know of any time when our girls didn't want to come home or do something now that they're, I mean, one just graduated from college last year and they have a, and then a 25 year old lives in New York that, I mean, we respect their choice. It's their life. I don't get two lives. I get one and they get one. Fortunately, they, they like to come hang.

Madison Pruitt Trout (36:56)

Out because they come home for the sandwiches.

Dr. Henry Cloud (36:58)

They come home for the sandwiches.

Madison Pruitt Trout (37:00)

No, I. And you have a book on, on like kit on raising kids to where.

Dr. Henry Cloud (37:05)

They'Re raising great kids.

Madison Pruitt Trout (37:07)

Raising great kids. And I would love for you to even speak into that a little bit. As you know, we just had our first and hopefully we'll have many more, God willing, of just what are even some practices and some tips that you have seen personally or in research that have that help you raise great kids, that want to come home, that respect your wisdom, that respect you as a parent, but also know who they are on their own and you kind of like send them out to go be who they've been called to be.

Dr. Henry Cloud (37:37)

Well, you want to, I mean, parenting is, is always about the future. When we wrote a book called Boundaries with Kids and I got, I have a story in there. I was at some friend's house having dinner one night and he got a call and he disappeared. And then she got busy. I'm sitting in the kitchen waiting on him and, and, and I go, where is, where's Allison? And so I walked down the hall and. And their boys were in one of the boys room. He was 14. She's in there like picking up stuff and putting, you know, soccer balls away. And, and I looked at her like this and she says, what? And I said, I'm just sitting here thinking about his future wife. And she stopped, said, oh my gosh. The homework is never about the homework. It's about their tax return when they're 35. It's about doing what a job requires, what you're doing when you're raising Kids is you are, you are developing competency in life. Not to just do what you want them to do to get to dinner on time, but to develop skills and competencies. So maybe four quick ones. I was in a mommy's group when, when our girls were toddlers. There was a parent toddler preschool that they went to is two hours every week. And I wanted to go, so I told Tori, I want to do this. And so I'm in the group in the last half hour. You know, you talk about issues, right? How do you keep them in bed? Or how do you do this and this. And I just couldn't believe how people. People were getting their advice from. There wasn't Instagram then. This is. They were. They're 20 something now, but I mean, it might be a talk show or some celebrity. And this is how they, you know, and all this kind of. And I'll give you an example. One day, one of them did something and somebody said no to their toddler. And the other one goes, no, don't tell your kid no, give them another choice. If they want to touch that or pick up that. No, don't give them another choice. I said, are you kidding me? Their boss is not going to give them another choice. One of the things they've got to do, one of the most important things, they've got to learn to respect the word no. The healthiest kids come from families with high warmth, connection and support, and high expectations. You have high warmth with no expectations. They'll be on your couch at 40 watching video games or an addict or dependent. You have high expectations with no support and warmth. I mean, the Bible says it clearly. Paul says, don't provoke your children to wrath or don't dishearten. Your anger is not a parenting tool. And if you have all these expectations but you're not helping them get there, then you lose. So we need both kids. It's amazing how far back the competency expectations have been rolled. Kids can do way more than they're being required to do. A lot of times they're catering to every feeling and every. Oh, don't invalidate their feeling. Excuse me. Validation of emotions is one of the key building blocks of emotional regulation. But that doesn't mean that whatever the kid's feeling becomes the guide for their next step. And we have to teach them to regulate their emotions. I mean, that's an important thing.

Madison Pruitt Trout (41:36)

Yeah. What were those four things?

Dr. Henry Cloud (41:38)

Oh, got it.

Madison Pruitt Trout (41:39)

I want to know. I'm like, I'm taking mental notes.

Dr. Henry Cloud (41:41)

Okay? The foundation of all life Is attachment connection. That's why building secure attachment, responsive to needs. All the bonding stuff you want, that's the glue. God, his whole program starts with abiding, starts with connection. Separation from life will die. So they have got to be connected to you. And there's various ways you do that at different stage, but the main thing that you have is a connection. But once they're connected and you watch your little one, soon you're wanting to hold her and you had all this connecting time, all of a sudden she's going to start to crawl that way. The second one is the separateness and autonomy and boundaries where they learn self control and you've got to foster their being away from you and getting away from you and having their own interests and exploring the world. But what the third thing is, what happens when we start to be free? Bad stuff happens, we skin our knees, we fail, we're not as good as we wanted to be and we make a mistake. The third thing is they've got to be able to embrace and regulate the negative aspects of life. Life. When somebody hurts them, they've got to be able to negotiate that. When they have a loss, they've got to learn to grieve that and process that. You don't have to call the school and, you know, beat up the whoever. What are you doing? Saying, my kids, not that my. You know, they got to be able to learn with failure and pain and all that. And then the fourth thing is they got to grow up and become an adult and get good at building, you know, their talents and abilities. If you focus on those four areas, that's an adult and huge percentage of mental health problems. You go to good therapy. What are they going to do? You're depressed. Well, it's like a fever. Why do you have a fever? The doctor's going to ask and they're going to be diagnosing what you end up treating. They're depressed because they're isolated or emotionally disconnected or they're so connected they have no boundaries and everybody's in control of their life. Or the third thing, they've got pain and loss and trauma that they've never been able to process. Or fourthly, they have no life. You know, they've got to build some talents and abilities and not bury their talent in the ground and find fulfillment in what God made them to do. So that's kind of the simple map. There's a lot of skills involved in.

Madison Pruitt Trout (44:34)

Doing those, but so good. Honestly, I just, I was like, that's really helpful. I'M gonna re listen to that too. As Hosanna starts getting older. Okay. I'd love to bring it back to right now. I mean, right now it's all tears. It's just a lot of warmth right now.

Dr. Henry Cloud (44:47)

Yeah, it's all warmth.

Madison Pruitt Trout (44:48)

It's a lot of warmth, a lot of holding and snuggling. But I'd love to bring it back to necessary endings, new beginnings. Because we were talking earlier on in this conversation and you were opening up about your time even at SMU and reaching some points of hopelessness and depression and some really hard.

Dr. Henry Cloud (45:07)

I wrote a book about that journey called why I Believe. Because I have so many non Christian friends and they know I'm one of those weirdos. But some people, it's hard to get in the conversation and what they think a Christian is and divisive and all that. And so I finally wrote a book to give to my non Christian friends and say this is why I believe. But what's been interesting is Christians have found it a spiritual growth book, but also something they give to their friends. But yeah, I hit bottom. It was bad. It was really bad.

Madison Pruitt Trout (45:44)

I love to talk about how to take a semester off because, well, there's probably some people listening that they feel like they're at bottom and that's why they're so hopeful for a new year. It kind of feels like, okay, it's a new ch chapter. But we were talking about earlier, you know, if nothing changes, nothing changes. Like if, if we don't create and implement.

Dr. Henry Cloud (46:02)

That's right.

Madison Pruitt Trout (46:02)

Some endings and some, some habits and put some things into place, like nothing's going to change.

Dr. Henry Cloud (46:08)

But it's hard to just end something. I'm running away from something. You got to be running towards something.

Madison Pruitt Trout (46:16)

Yeah.

Dr. Henry Cloud (46:17)

And this new year, if this new year, certainly it's got to have some endings. But why did Abraham leave her? Because God was taking him to a promise. And, and so it's important when you're thinking about this next year. Remember in Alice in Wonderland, you know, she comes to the fork in the road, which is where you are right now, to continue the, the way I did last year. Or am I going to have to? And she comes to 4 year old Cheshire Cat sitting there and she goes, which way do I go? He says, where are you trying to get to? She said, I don't know. He said, well, I guess it didn't. Doesn't matter much, does it, which way you go if you don't know where you're going. And it's important and you said you reflect on last year, do an audit of your last year. And I think of life as a pie. There's three big slices to our pie. We have a clinical life. How are you feeling? Is there depression, anxiety, fears, all that sort of stuff? Are you thriving and happy and you know, how's your stress level? So take an audit of that piece of your life. The second one is our relational life. We all have relationships, all sorts. And the third piece of the pie is your performance, which means what are your goals and your dreams, either career wise or avocationally and hobbies or ministry or whatever that is, that, that's a complete life. Now some people say, where's the spiritual piece? There's not one. The whole pie is spiritual. If your spiritual life isn't affecting how you feel or how you relate or how you're performing, something's wrong with the spiritual life. Right. And so, so I would do an audit and, and look at your last year in those three areas and say, how would I rate them? And then ask the question back to necessary endings. What have I been doing that's taking away from the abundant life there or what's missing that should be there? And so start doing it. And then what you've got to do is, you know, I keep talking about books. I've got a book coming out on this call your desired future in a couple of months. And the model I used in that book when I started talking about how does anything get from here to there? And looking at all the research in the world on performance and leadership and all that, it dawned on me. If God had a vision and God wanted to go somewhere and start a company, what would his model for that be? And it wasn't there in the Bible, anywhere you don't find, you know. And then I realized he did, he started, you know, he's like, he had a founder in this thing called the church. And then it dawned on me. He called the church a body. So I asked myself the question, what is the human body's model to get from here to there? And it just, there's never been a better plan. What do you start with? If I'm sitting here and I think it'd be better to sit over there. Wow. I would rather be there. What do we call that a vision? What do you, you got to start with what you, what is there? What do you want the next year to look like at the, at a year from now? What do you want to look back and say, that was a great year. Well, why so what's your vision in those areas? Then? What does your body do? All right, I'm going to go over there. Well, your brain's not going anywhere by itself. What does it do? It sends out impulses and engages the talent that I'm going to need to help me get there. Calls a couple of legs and a couple of eyes to focus, and you're not going to get there by yourself. What talent do you need to bring to the table? What help? Is it a therapist? Is it a coach? Is it a mentor? Is it a community? Is it. What is it? Nobody ever won a Super bowl by themselves. Get the right people in the right positions, professional or could be in your network of friends. So who's going to be your tribe that's going to help you get there? Your marriage is suffering. Bring some talent to the room. You gotta find mentors or therapists or something. Okay, now I'm ready. Right. All right, let's go. Well, wait a minute. How am I gonna get there? I think I'll call an Uber. No, six feet across the room. I'll skateboard. No, that. What am I gonna do? I think I'll walk. Okay, that's a strategy. It's not random activities. You know how you're going to attack this problem? It's like the dating thing. I give a strategy for that or weight loss or whatever. It's got to be. You got to have a plan and a strategy or you're going to have disconnected misfires and activities. All right, so now I'm ready. Got my strategy. I'm going to go, I'm going to walk. That's my strategy. Well, I get up and what do I do? I start walking. But what if I'm headed over here? God has built in a system into your brain. Measurement and accountability. Your head knows, oh, I'm getting off track. And then it holds you accountable to that. And you got to have a measurement and accountability system. The activities that are going to get you there, are you measuring that you're doing them and who's holding you accountable. And then the last one is when you find that you got to quickly fix it quickly. We have problems in life every day. Every strategy, we're going to fail. We're going to do something wrong. But if you fix it when it happens, then you don't have the death sentence. A death sentence is a problem that you repeat because now you don't have a problem. You got a pattern. You said, I'm going to get up and do this, and maybe it's workout and you wake up one morning, I'm sleeping in a day. It's fine if it's one day. Here's what the research shows. If you do it the next morning, it drops like that. Because patterns make our lives. So a mistake, a failure, that's great. That's how we get there. We learn, we change it. But if you don't change it, you're headed down a different road. So look at your next year that way.

Madison Pruitt Trout (52:53)

So good. That was really, really helpful too, I think also just practically and thinking through reflection and stepping into a new year. And I'd love to end this episode to just really invite you to speak to. Maybe the person who feels stuck, feels depressed, feels hopeless and doesn't know. Like, I don't know, will next year be better? Like, I feel pretty hopeless right now. I don't know how to have hope or how to step into this new year. New beginning, new me. I don't even know what that looks like. I think I see a lot, especially of my generation and even the generation under me that feels very paralyzed and confused on having their desired future, on stepping into their desired future because they're so busy looking at everybody else and what they're doing. And there's so much comparison that it creates this, like, paralyzed, hopeless state. I don't even know, do I have talents? What do I do with my talents? Their talents seem shinier, brighter, better. I now I now I'm comparing. Now I'm stuck. Now I'm beating myself up and feel insecure and insignificant. And so I just know that there's.

Dr. Henry Cloud (53:59)

I get a lot of, you know, the comparison thing. Do you know, in. In happiness research, comparing yourself to others is one of the most destructive things that you can do.

Madison Pruitt Trout (54:12)

Wow.

Dr. Henry Cloud (54:12)

For 8 million reasons. But let's just obey the Bible. Galatians 6 says, Examine your own work, your own life without comparing yourself to others. The guy with five talents that doubled him, what if he or she been going, but they have 10 and they turned in it? They would have been a failure in there. But God's going to turn whatever you turn that into. Turn. You're looking at one frame in somebody's life. You didn't see the whole movie that it took to get there. All the failures, all the misfires, all the breakups before they found the one. And don't compare yourself to others. Start with, I mean, I can tell you what I did.

Madison Pruitt Trout (55:04)

Yeah, that's great.

Dr. Henry Cloud (55:05)

I mean, I was at the bottom. It was bad. One day I'm sitting in My dorm room, and I'm obsessing about life. I just had a breakup with a girlfriend and my hand injury. My golf career was over, and I didn't know what I was going to study. What do you do for a career? How do you make a relationship? Or how do you even find the right one? And I'm sitting there, and I hadn't read my Bible since I've been in college. You know, at fraternity parties, we didn't do a lot of Bible study.

Madison Pruitt Trout (55:38)

Shocking.

Dr. Henry Cloud (55:41)

But I. I looked up on the shelf and my Bible was sitting there and a thousand other books, and it just kind of went. I don't know. I just felt this. So I went and picked it up, open it up randomly. And this verse kind of goes like this. And it said, seek first the kingdom of God and its righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you. And I went, all these things I'm worried about. Look for God first. I said, well, nothing else is working. So I walked over to empty chapel and I went down to the altar and I said, God, I don't even know if you're there really or not, but I need help. I knew I jumped out of the plane. I never really given myself over fully. And I was expecting to get zapped, like on tv, you know, when they. And nothing happened. And I remember it was the worst, loneliest moment. I'm at my inn. I just reached out to God, and it's crickets. And I kind of walked out. Thought, well, okay, well, call me. I went back to my dorm room. A little while later, the phone rang. It was a fraternity brother of mine. And he said, I don't know what's making me think of you. You're the last person I would think of. But we're starting a Bible study, and I want to you invite long story short, that began the healing. But what I would say to you is, first of all, I really get it. I know what that experience is like, and it is hopeless in your experience of how you feel. But hit pause on a Netflix movie, that's one frame. There's a whole movie ahead of you. Then there's a script writer. His name's Jesus. And you can't see this frame right now as the whole movie. But you gotta start with connecting with the scriptwriter that's writing your story and wants to write your story. But you can't do it in a vacuum. If I hadn't gotten connected to that group, who then connected me with a good shrink who understood my depression, who and they put me in a support system of people working on life issues and on and on and on. That's what I would say to them. First of all, it's hopeless today. You're right, because you don't know your way out. How would you have hope when you've tried everything? And the pain. I never knew emotional pain could be physical, but it hurt. I couldn't move. I couldn't think. Does feel hopeless. It's true. It feels that way. It's not hopeless because there's somebody outside of you that sees the whole movie and knows how to get you there. But it's very possible for you to just reach out to God but be disconnected from his life. Like he says in Ephesians 4, that sometimes we're separated from the life of God because you're separated from this body that he has that has the gifts and the talent to help you get out. So connect with him. Disregard the hopelessness, but connect with him and find somebody to talk to. But somebody who brings something to the party, not just another empty platitude or job's friends were worthless. You gotta find. You gotta find some help. If you're really at that bad place and somebody knows what they're doing.

Madison Pruitt Trout (59:41)

Yeah, Christ and community, honestly, that's the way to healing. It talks about.

Dr. Henry Cloud (59:48)

We don't realize that, like Ephesians 4 says that the whole body being held together by every joint that's in you heals itself as each part does its work. You have an infected finger, you're not going to amputate it and put it in a drawer with a book on anatomy. And that's what a lot of Christians do. They're in pain. They sit with the book. But the book says to go do all this stuff with the gifts of his body. And that's where the healing, that's so good.

Madison Pruitt Trout (60:22)

And he is the head of the body. And the body is meant to work together, not be comparing itself or working against each other. And I think that's what. If I were a foot, right? I think that's what happens. It's like, oh, we want to be the scene parts. We want to be the mouthpiece. We want to be, oh, that person's the hand. I want to be the hand. You know, they have this. I want that gift.

Dr. Henry Cloud (60:41)

And.

Madison Pruitt Trout (60:41)

And I think what's so beautiful is, you know, scripture is like, yeah, well, actually, the part that keeps you alive are really the hidden parts. You know, the parts that you don't see. And everybody, I think, is. It just wants wants their significance seen because that's what they see somebody else have. And we're constantly working against ourselves in the way that God's wired us because we're trying to be like somebody else. And. And I love that you're even just bringing it back to, like, it's all about him. It's all about the head.

Dr. Henry Cloud (61:06)

You know, even Paul, the celebrity on YouTube. What did he say? What are y' all doing? Saying you're of Paul or you're of Apollos or you're. No, we're all of Christ.

Madison Pruitt Trout (61:17)

Yeah. Amen.

Dr. Henry Cloud (61:18)

And.

Madison Pruitt Trout (61:21)

It'S so good. I think. I think John the Baptist did a beautiful job of it, of just like, hey, I'm not the true light. I'm here to point to the true light. I am here to make a way. I'm preparing a way for the only one who can actually save you and. And bring light into your life. And I was reading in John 1 this morning, and it talks about in John 1:5, for the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. And there's a lot of people who are listening right now where their situation feels really dark. And I love that you're speaking to. It does feel hopeless. And let's address that. Let's get honest about that. But also, we serve a God who is greater than that and who wants to bring us out of it. But it starts with acknowledging, with where.

Dr. Henry Cloud (62:04)

We'Re at, because when we're hopeless, we've tried everything we know. And wherever you are right now, God knows the discharge date of your depression, but he's got the treatment path. He will order your steps. So don't get caught in that circle of hopelessness.

Madison Pruitt Trout (62:24)

So good. I'd love for you to just pray over those who are listening or watching right now and maybe feel hopeless. Maybe they're. They're stuck in a relationship or a situation that needs to come to an end. Or maybe they're asking just for. For fresh vision, for a new year and a new future and. And what habits to put into place. But wherever they're at, I'd love for you to just pray for them as we wrap up.

Dr. Henry Cloud (62:45)

Yep, I'll do it. Father, we come before you. You told us to pray this way. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. We hold you up as our Father, and I pray for your fatherhood, for each person. We are your children, even in adult bodies. And I pray for your fathering of everybody who's listening, how a father plans and a father Brings resources and a father, coaches and teaches and disciplines and all of that. I pray for your fatherhood, for everyone who's listening as they look at next year. And God, I pray for the specifics. Some people need vision. God, I pray for a new vision to be birthed. You said that a person's path comes from their heart, and then you direct their steps. I pray that you put visions into people's hearts for what can be, trusting that you'll direct their steps. And some people need a vision. I pray that you give that God. Other people have a vision. They have one this year. But holding on to things. Remember Lot's wife? She had to let go and she didn't. And I pray for those whose vision is yet to be realized because there's something that's got to end. It could be a pattern, it could be a practice. It could be just a good thing. That's not the best thing. Or it could be something really negative. I pray that you awaken them to seeing that with your eyes and having the courage to leave it, to stop it, to leave it behind and give them the strength they need to do that and give them the support they need to do that. Some of you listening, it may be an addiction. And to leave it behind, you're going to need a recovery group. So go today or somewhere in your one, somewhere in your town. So I pray for those endings, for visions that can't be realized until that happens. God. And then others, God, have visions, but they really don't have a plan. God, you always had a. You always had a plan and a strategy. And I pray for prioritization to be clear in people's heads. For if I'm going to get there, I've got to prioritize some certain activities. It may be learning. It may be taking risks, it may be learning new skills. It may be learning how to communicate better. Who knows what it is? God, But I. I pray that you will help them prioritize what's going to help them get there. And I pray for good accountability. God, bring people in that can help them. Accountability is not. Don't God, keep them from seeing it as police work. It's a guide to help us get somewhere. So give them the courage to step into those relationships. And God, I pray for the bigger picture for this whole group of probably the age group we're talking about. God, protect them from this negative narrative that's over this generation. It's saying, you'll never have what your parents did and there's no good this and there's no good that God, I just come against that negativity. You are a God of abundance. You're not a God of scarcity. And I pray that you give birth to abundance in their hearts, that they see you as the source. Not the data on the economy or not the data on this or the data on that, but God, give them, give them a belief that there are good things happening that you can lead them to and take them to them. And we pray all this in Jesus name. Amen.

Madison Pruitt Trout (67:00)

Amen. So good. Thank you so much for coming on. Stay True. I was encouraged. I'm going to be listening back to this podcast episode and there was so many. Can I give a truth?

Dr. Henry Cloud (67:11)

Can I give a plug, please? I've got a website called boundaries me, not boundaries.com, boundaries me. And it has over a hundred courses, little short video courses on all this stuff, all these areas of life. So good. So I'd encourage you to take a look. Yeah.

Madison Pruitt Trout (67:30)

And we'll include that link too in the show notes, so you guys can go and check that out if you just want a quick click. But thank you so much for your wisdom, for all of your resources that are helpful, truly in whatever stage of life you're in, wherever you're at, whatever you've been through. So encouraged by you, inspired by you. And as always, guys, be sure to stay you and stay true. We love you.

Mrs. Claus (Younger Sister) (67:59)

Guys. Thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree, Zoe.

Elf Drew Ski (68:02)

This thing weighs a ton.

Dr. Henry Cloud (68:03)

Drew Ski, lift with your legs, man. Santa.

Madison Pruitt Trout (68:05)

Santa, did you get my letter?

Elf Drew Ski (68:06)

He's talking to you, britches.

Dr. Henry Cloud (68:08)

I'm not.

Mrs. Claus (Younger Sister) (68:09)

Of course he did.

Dr. Henry Cloud (68:10)

Right, Santa, you know my elf, Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list.

Elf Drew Ski (68:14)

And elf, I'm six three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile, you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfie, right, Mrs. Claus?

Mrs. Claus (Younger Sister) (68:24)

I'm Mrs. Claus much younger sister. And AT T Mobile, there's no trade in needed when you switch. So you can keep your old phone.

Dr. Henry Cloud (68:30)

Or give it as a gift.

Mrs. Claus (Younger Sister) (68:31)

And the best part, you can make the switch to T Mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes.

Dr. Henry Cloud (68:35)

Nice.

Elf Drew Ski (68:36)

My side of the tree is slipping.

Dr. Henry Cloud (68:37)

Timber.

T Mobile Advertiser (68:38)

The holidays are better. AT T Mobile switch in just 15 minutes and get iPhone 17 on us with no trade in needed. And now T Mobile is available in US Cellular regular stores with 24 monthly.

T Mobile Plan Details Announcer (68:49)

Bill credits for well qualified customers, plus tax and 35 device connection charge. Credit balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Finance Agreement 256 gates, 830 eligible for in a new line 100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes fees required. Check out 15 minutes or less per line.

Libsyn Ads Narrator (68:58)

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