Spiritual Manipulation and Discernment with Lisa Harper

Summary

Stay True Podcast: Episode Summary Title: Spiritual Manipulation and Discernment with Lisa Harper
Host: Madison Pruitt Trout
Guest: Lisa Harper
Release Date: August 4, 2025

---

Introduction

In this impactful episode of Stay True with Madison Prewett Troutt, host Madison engages in a deeply meaningful conversation with renowned speaker and author Lisa Harper. The episode delves into sensitive and crucial topics such as spiritual manipulation, discernment, and healing from church-related hurts. Throughout their discussion, Madison and Lisa provide listeners with valuable insights, personal testimonies, and practical advice on navigating the complexities of faith and community.

Understanding Church Hurt and Spiritual Manipulation

The conversation opens with Madison addressing a pressing issue many believers face: being hurt by the church or Christian leaders. Lisa Harper empathetically responds, emphasizing the inherent risks in relationships:

[01:04] Lisa Harper: "Relationships, man, they are the most glorious thing, but they're risky and wounds come with relationships."

She acknowledges that while relationships can lead to pain, they are also opportunities for growth and experiencing God's love. Madison further explores the dilemma of submitting to leadership that may not align with God's teachings:

[01:10] Madison Pruitt Trout: "What do you do in a situation where you know, you are called to submit to leadership but you know, maybe they're not submitted to the leadership of God?"

Lisa advises discernment and caution, highlighting the importance of not elevating leaders above Christ:

[01:35] Lisa Harper: "Do not put leaders on a pedestal. Find Christian leaders who follow Jesus, who are shaped like Jesus."

Personal Testimonies and Healing

Madison shares her personal journey of distancing herself from the church due to hurtful experiences. Lisa responds with compassion, encouraging listeners to find safe spaces within the Christian community to grieve and heal:

[07:51] Lisa Harper: "Find a safe place to grieve that is biblical. Over half of the most often asked questions in the Bible is how much longer it's, it's, how long."

Madison reflects on the duality of her experiences—being both hurt by the church and healed by it:

[40:18] Madison Pruitt Trout: "I have heard of a lot of people who have, and I've actually had my own personal experiences with this, but have experienced, you know, church hurt and spiritual manipulation, deconstruction of the faith."

Spiritual Discernment and Maturity

A significant portion of the episode focuses on developing spiritual discernment to navigate misleading teachings and manipulative leadership. Lisa emphasizes the necessity of a personal relationship with God and the study of Scripture as foundational for discernment:

[50:22] Lisa Harper: "You have to study the life of Christ in order to discern whether something is shaped like Jesus or not."

Madison shares her experiences of feeling led by God to make unconventional decisions, such as adopting her daughter later in life, and how seeking wise counsel and remaining steadfast in faith helped her align with God's will:

[61:39] Lisa Harper: "Sometimes we call wise counsel living our lives by poll or popularity. So wise counsel is not throwing a question out on social media and getting 200 responses."

Practical Steps for Growth and Community Engagement

Madison and Lisa offer practical advice for listeners seeking to grow in their faith and discernment:

1. Engage in Community:

   • Join a local church and participate in small groups or Bible studies.
   • Build relationships with fellow believers for mutual support and accountability.

2. Study Scripture Thoughtfully:

   • Understand the historical and cultural context of Biblical texts.
   • Avoid superficial reading; immerse yourself deeply to grasp the underlying messages.

3. Seek Wise Counsel:

   • Connect with mentors and leaders who embody Christ-like qualities.
   • Utilize Christian counseling when needed to navigate personal struggles.

4. Cultivate a Personal Relationship with God:

   • Prioritize prayer and meditation on God's Word.
   • Listen for the Holy Spirit’s guidance in everyday decisions.

Notable Quotes

• Lisa Harper at [04:23]: "The Bible is a redemptive history from the very beginning."
• Madison Pruitt Trout at [09:51]: "I pray that at the end of my life that I can say I have kept the faith."
• Lisa Harper at [50:11]: "You have to study the life of Christ in order to discern whether something is shaped like Jesus or not."
• Madison Pruitt Trout at [68:16]: "Be quick to say you're sorry, be slow to take offense."

Conclusion and Final Prayer

The episode wraps up with a heartfelt prayer led by Lisa, encapsulating the themes of seeking God's truth, embracing grace, and fostering a deeper relationship with Jesus. Madison expresses gratitude for the enlightening conversation, encouraging listeners to engage with their faith authentically and remain connected to their Christian community despite past hurts.

[74:00] Lisa Harper: "Be honest in your pursuit of God and your pursuit of godly company."

[78:16] Madison Pruitt Trout: "Know that you are prayed for like she just prayed for you. And so as always, guys, be sure to stay true. We love you."

Key Takeaways

• Authentic Relationships: Embrace relationships despite their risks, as they are avenues for experiencing God's love and growth.
• Discernment: Develop spiritual maturity through consistent Bible study, prayer, and seeking wise counsel to navigate spiritual manipulation.
• Community Importance: Stay connected to a supportive Christian community to foster accountability, support, and communal growth.
• Personal Testimony: Recognize the transformative power of personal experiences and testimonies in strengthening faith and overcoming church-related hurts.

---

This episode serves as a beacon for those grappling with hurts within their faith communities, offering a path towards healing, discernment, and a more profound relationship with God. Madison and Lisa's candid dialogue provides both comfort and actionable steps for listeners striving to Stay True in their spiritual journeys.

Transcript

[T-Mobile Ad]

Summer fun goes great with family freedom from T Mobile. We'll pay off four phones up to $3200 and give you four free phones all on America's largest 5G network. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com familyfreedom up to $800 per line via virtual prepaid card typically takes 15 days. Free phones via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement eg Apple iPhone 16 128GB8 2,999 eligible trade in eg iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits end and balance due if you pay off early or cancel contact T Mobile Shopify.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Helps you sell at every stage of your business. Like that let's put it online and see what happens. Stage and the site is live that we opened a store and need a fast checkout. Stage thanks. You're all set that Count it up and ship it around the globe Stage.

[Lisa Harper]

This one's going to Thailand and that.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wait, did we just hit a million orders? Stage Whatever your stage Businesses that grow grow with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 a month [e-mail] Listen, what would you say to those who have been hurt by the church or hurt by a Christian leader?

[Lisa Harper]

Relationships, man, they are the most glorious thing, but they're risky and wounds come with relationships.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

What do you do in a situation where you know, you are called to submit to leadership but you know, maybe they're not submitted to the leadership of God?

[Lisa Harper]

If somebody uses the Bible to shame you, they're taking out of context?

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Amen.

[Lisa Harper]

Truth is convicting, but it's not shaming.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

How can you grow in spiritual discernment and spiritual maturity to know this is what God is calling me to do? This is what where God's voice is leading me, even if those around me don't understand and agree with it.

[Lisa Harper]

Be careful. To anyone who says honor me, Jesus is my Lord and master. No pastor is supposed to be your Lord and master. And I have a lot of friends who've said I'm backing up. I'm too disappointed. I've had too much church hurt. You know what? If you need to take a breather, take a breather. But don't walk away from the body of Christ. You will not, I don't think, have abundant life if you try to live it independently. She says, I'm so sorry. I just got a big glob of sn not in your hair. What do you say to that?

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

What's up guys? Welcome back to another episode of Stay True podcast. I'M your host, Madison Pruitt Trout, and I'm in the podcast studio with someone that I have watched from afar and been so inspired by. Someone who honestly challenges me so much of my faith, but also will leave me back belly laughing every time I listen to a sermon or a podcast from her. So I'm so excited for you guys to hear from the one and only Lisa Harper.

[Lisa Harper]

You've made me grin, so I already my cheeks are cramping.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

This is gonna be a good day, you guys. I'm so excited about today's conversation about what we're talking about, but also that you guys, if you haven't listened to Lisa Harper, you're gonna be obsessed with her after this episode. But she's written over 15 books, she is a speaker and author and also has her own podcast called Back Porch Theology. And I think we all need some back porch theology in hundred percent.

[Lisa Harper]

You know, I. We were talking about how you came up with a name for your podcast and we were just talking about, you hear the word theology and it sounds like old men in corner offices. Yeah. Super academic. And I thought, you know, you break down the word theology. The original Greek terms are theos, refers to God, logos, conversations. So at its core, theology is conversations about God. And I thought, I don't want to do front porch theology because, you know, in the south we kind of keep our front pork porch is Pinterest perfect. But back porch, that's where you unbutton the top, button your pants. You might have a car up on blocks. You can just be honest. And I think we need a lot more honest conversations about who God is.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

That's so good. It's so true. I think when we hear the word theology, we're like, oh, that's only reserved for like the top of the top.

[Lisa Harper]

Of the top smart people, people who like, you know, love multi slobic theological terms. Yes, and, and it's not. Theology is much more about living than learning. It's what you do all the time. It's exactly what you do. It's having conversations about God. So really, if you look at it from that point, everybody's a theologian. That doesn't mean everybody is a sound theologian. If it's not based in the parameters of scripture, you can be a wackadoodle theologian. But everybody has ideas, conversations, hopes about who God is. And so biblically informed theology, it's just so much more fun than it is, you know, this rigid academic pursuit. So I love talking about theology.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Man, I'm so pumped to learn from you today. And honestly, guys aren't watching this video. You need to watch this video because I'm looking at her Bible right now. And this Bible, like, you talk about, like, this is. This thing has like a million sticky notes. No, I mean highlight. There's. That's incredible.

[Lisa Harper]

Well, I'm 112. I'm a lot older than you, so you look incredible. You know what it is, is you start. I don't know if you're like this, but it took me a while to really get comfortable writing in my Bible. I grew up in a super conservative stream of the church. And so once I got comfortable writing in my Bible, I was like, I am running out of room. And so I put stick in. You know, there'll be some old dead guy. I want to remember what he said. So I put that in. Somebody asked me recently, do. Is there a theological theme to the different colors of the stickies in your Bible? I was like, no, no, it's whatever's in my kitchen. But. But I'm always. I'm always trading Bibles. It's just my dad wrote in this one before he passed, so it's hard to. Hard to set it down.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Get rid of that one. That is. Well, it's beautiful. And I. I love that because I talk about on this podcast all the time. Like, I called this podcast Stay True, because in order for us to stay true, we gotta know the truth. We gotta be in the truth.

[Lisa Harper]

That's right.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And then we obey the truth, and that's how we stay true. And so I love even just looking at your Bible because it's such a convicting reminder, like, we gotta know. We gotta dive. We gotta dive into the truth. We gotta study the truth, meditate on it, know it, and then follow it. And so I. I just. I love that so much. I want to get started with just hearing a little bit more of your testimony because I don't even know if I know. I think I've heard parts of it, but I'd love to hear just what got you to this point. Just how you met Jesus and what got you into starting a podcast like Back Porch Theology and writing over 15 books. Like, what got you to where you are today?

[Lisa Harper]

Grace of God. Truncated. Just absolute grace of God. I'm a hot mess and recovering Pharisee. Grew up in a, like I said, a super conservative stream of the church. My dad. My parents had a super acrimonious divorce and my dad left us when I was little and I was just five. And I can remember Maddie. It's funny, I'm 61, so this was forever ago, but I can remember this like it was yesterday. We had to leave the church that I grew up in, because back in the day, sometimes people would disguise gossip as prayer request. So after my parents divorce, we moved to another church. And the first day at Little Bitty Baptist Church. I grew up in central Florida. The pastor started talking about how our Heavenly Father never turns his back on his children. And I was just devastated that my dad had left us. And I remember holding onto the back of the pew. I don't know if you grew up in a conservative stream. In the church where they sang Just As I am like 452 times and somebody had to go afford or you'd never go to lunch, they were singing Just As I am at the end of service. You know, I'm just like five years old, scared to death to walk forward. But the idea of a dad who wouldn't leave was so compelling to me that I walked forward and told the pastor I wanted to give my heart to Jesus. So I became a Christ follower as just a peanut. But along that same time period, there was a lot of sexual abuse in my backstory. And so from my earliest memory, I felt dirty. So I knew God had delivered me. But I thought that was kind of because that was his job description. And because of feeling so much shame from the sexual abuse, I just resolved as a little girl, I've got to do better, be better, do better, be better. So I knew Jesus, but I really didn't understand the delight of God. I understood a real base level that I needed God because I was a sinner. But it really wasn't until I had a pretty massive breakdown my 30s and 40s, that I began to go, could a God like that actually delight in a broken woman like me? So, been Walk with Jesus a long time, but had some pretty serious stumbles along the way. Went to seminary in my 30s, went into youth ministry right out of undergrad, and then was working for two big ministries. And I thought, I want to know this better. You know, this is not a textbook. It's a love story. And so I went back to seminary in my 30s, learned just enough Greek and Hebrew to be dangerous. And I still was, was more religious than comfortable being an intimate relationship with Jesus. So a lot of my story has been the kindness of God, because I have just unfolded through the years. I always want to tell young women like you with tight skin and high metabolisms, it gets better, it gets better, it gets better. Walk with Jesus doesn't get stiffer, it gets freer. You find this to be truer than you believed. And it is a love story. It is redemptive from beginning to end. So he continues just, I'm more in love with Jesus at 61 than I've ever been. So I've been late to the party on a lot of things. I became a mom at the age of 50 through the miracle of adoption. But really, my faith story has just been the kindness of God. Never, never given up on me. If I was God, I think I would have kicked me to the curb a long time ago. And, you know, you said earlier, it's his. It's his mercy that leads us to repentance, and he has been extraordinarily merciful to me.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Amen. I love. You're talking about how at 61, you are more in love with Jesus than ever. Because I, you know, when Grant and I got married, people would say, like, oh, like, you guys look all happy. Go lucky. Now just wait. Like, you know, like, give it some time. Like, you're just in the honeymoon phase.

[Lisa Harper]

And it's just such words of death. It's such words. Speak that over us. Yeah.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And I. I'm like, we rebuke that. I pray that, you know, years and years and years, decades later, that we're more in love than we were when we first got married because of the level of intimacy. And I think in the same way, in relationship with Jesus. I pray that that is my testimony that at 80 years old, I am so much more in love with Jesus than I am right now at 29 years old. I pray that what I've been through, I pray that at the end of my life that I can say I have kept the faith. I have. I have made it to the end. Right? And I want that to be said about. Because everybody can start, but, like, not. Not many finish well.

[Lisa Harper]

Right?

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And I was reading Romans 12 the other day and how it was talking about, like, do not lose your spiritual fervor. Like, keep your spiritual fervor. Be zealous for the Lord. And it's so easy when you first get saved to be like, I love Jesus. I'm telling everyone about Jesus. It's like your favorite Mexican restaurant you just found out about, and you're telling everybody.

[Lisa Harper]

That's right.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And then, you know, you start getting comfortable, you start losing that. And. And so what has it been for you that has kept you just so on fire for Jesus all these years that's kept you from. You know, having that burnout or kept you from kind of losing that first love.

[Lisa Harper]

I mean, there have been seasons of burnout, certainly. And there have been seasons of where I just felt like I was in a pit that I dug myself, that he has picked me up out of every time. There have been many. I think for me it's been. He is a pursuer. So in those seasons, I love the promise that if we seek him with all our heart, he will be found by us in the New Testament. But Isaiah in the Old Testament says his lover, us, is so great, he pursues those who aren't even looking for him. And so in those seasons when I have. My fervor has dimmed, my kind of. That zeal has just been. Life crashed in on my zeal, and I kind of lost hope. For a season, he has pursued me with just this unbelievable passion. I remember it was probably late 30s, and I went to the beach, real close to where we were talking about off camera. A friend had a beach house, and I wasn't married, and I had a weekend free. And she said, why don't you go to the beach and just really lean into the Lord? And I thought, yeah, I'll go to the beach, but I'm going to lay.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Out, not lean in. I'm laying out.

[Lisa Harper]

Yeah, exactly. And it rained the whole time, and. And I was by myself. And I'm real relational. So I was, like, driving through Taco Bell. You're just trying to find somebody to talk to. And the. For whatever reason, I had brought a commentary on the Song of Songs, and I hadn't studied the Song of Songs before. You know, it's this poetry in the Old Testament, and it's kind of racy. It's almost like Daniel Steel in the Old Testament. But that's the only thing I had to read. And so I started studying the Song of Songs, and it tells the story. This is in the Bible. It tells the story of an actual husband and wife who fall in love. It's this epic love story. But the overarching narrative is a kind of intimacy we can have with Jesus. And there's this place in the story. Again, it's historical and metaphorical, where Solomon, who's the bridegroom in the story, says to Shulamite, she's just a regular girl. He's a king, she's a regular girl. And basically she says over and over again, what would a guy like you want with a girl like me? Like, you've got a really thick little black book. Why would you like Date me. You can get anybody on Tinder. And he says to her, no, you're the one that I love. And in their marriage vows. And he's a king, a historical king. She's a commoner. So this is like William and Kate, if anybody remembers that. I mean, it's a royal wedding. Israel was, you know, socio politically. Israel was a big nation at the time. So all these people gather by the temple to see their. Their wedding. It was a royal wedding. And he says to her in the wedding vows, this is Song of Solomon, chapter 4, verse 9. With one glance of your eyes, you captured my heart. And I can remember being like 38 at the beach and going, I don't think I've ever believed that. I've studied the Bible since I was a kid. I've been in Sunday school. I've seen every story flannel, graphed. But I don't think at the end of the day, I really, truly believe that the God of the universe would say to me, lisa, with one glance of your eyes, you captured my heart. And so there've been those moments along the way where he just kind of turbocharged my relationship with him. And it's become. The longer I've walked with Jesus, it's become so much more intimate. I. I love scripture, but it's less about ethics for me now, and it's more about intimacy. Of course we get holier as we walk with Jesus, but holiness is not to earn his favor. Holiness is because we just. We don't want to be anywhere else. I want to be as close to him as I possibly can. So. So my. My faith walk has been more him pursuing me than. Than me pursuing him. And I've got the point now that I can't imagine being anywhere else. You know, Missy becoming a mom as late in life that I did is such a miracle. But I tell people all the time, missy is not my hope. Missy is tangible grace, like your baby girl. You just go, oh, my heavens. It's just tangible, tangible grace every morning that I get to wake up to. But I wake up because of Jesus. Jesus is my first love. Jesus is my hope. Jesus is my breath. And so it does get better. Um, I love the story of Caleb. I want to be a Caleb at, you know, he's. He's way past. Way past retirement age, and he's like, give me a higher mountain to hike. I found this kind of fifth gear spiritually in my 50s. Chris Kane and I talk about this all the time where I'm like, dog gone. It I am more excited about the Lord, but it's so based on relational intimacy. Instead of trying to do the right thing. I've done enough of the wrong thing and been forgiven that now most of my posture with the Lord is gratitude.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Amen. And how would you say you cultivate that relational intimacy with Jesus on a day to day basis?

[Lisa Harper]

Let's map out this week's amazing destinations and travel tips. Honestly, Will, I didn't plan any trips, but I did switch to T Mobile with their new Family Freedom offer. That's not the itinerary we're following. Well, I'm departing from AT&T and embarking on a new journey with T Mobile.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

They paid off my family's four phones.

[Lisa Harper]

Up to $3200 and gave us four.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

New phones on the house.

[Lisa Harper]

Bon voyage.

[T-Mobile Ad]

Introducing Family Freedom. Our lowest cost. To switch our biggest family savings all on America's largest 5G network. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com FamilyFreedom up to $800 per line via virtual prepaid card typically takes 15 days. Free phones via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement eg Apple iPhone16128 gigabyte $8,029.99 Eligible trade in eg iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits end and balance due if you pay off early or cancel contact T Mobile.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

If you want to feel more connected.

[Lisa Harper]

To humanity and a little less alone, listen to Beautiful Anonymous each week, a phone call from one random anonymous human being. There's over 400 episodes in our back catalog. You get to feel connected to all these different people all over the world.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Recent episodes include one where a lady.

[Lisa Harper]

Survived a murder attempt by her own son. But then the week before that, we just talked about Star Trek.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It can be anything. It's unpredictable.

[Lisa Harper]

It's raw, it's real. Get Beautiful Anonymous wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Okay, guys, I'm taking a short break from this podcast to tell you about some exciting news. My new book, Dare to be True. Stay true. Dare to be True. It just makes sense. When God laid this podcast on my heart, I actually had already started working on my next book, Dare to be True. And the whole point of this podcast and the whole point of this book is we were all designed and made for truth, and everyone in this world is searching for it. Yet so many of us are searching for the right things in all of the wrong places. And this book is all about tackling the lies that often entangle us and bind us and finding the truth that sets us free. And so in this book, we're going to be tackling all the things from sin and shame and the lies around eternity and the lies around your identity and the lies around your purpose and how to find the truth and live free. Because the reality is, it says in Proverbs 14:12 that there is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death. There is a way that the world preaches that we should go, that we should follow, that we should conform to, that we should look like, and in the end it leads to death. Yet what God's word says is Jesus says in John 14:6, I am the way, the truth, and the life. So he is saying, the truth you are looking for can only be found in me. I am the truth. And I'm not only the truth, I am the truth that leads to life and life life abundantly. And then it says in John 8:32, when you know the truth, it's the truth that will set you free. And so if you have ever felt bound by lies, if you have ever questioned your worth, your confidence, your purpose, if you've ever wondered how you can break free from feeling weighed down, exhausted, overwhelmed, or even insecure about who you truly are and what your purpose is on this earth, this book is for you. I have often said I just want to be free. I have looked at my husband many of times and said, I just want to be free. I'm tired of feeling weighed down. I'm tired of feeling not enough. I'm tired of being on this endless cycle of striving and performing and never feeling like I can reach what I need to reach and be who I need to be. And when I go back to the truth, when I go back to who God is and who God says I am, that is when I experience true freedom. And so this book is for you and I am so excited. True Crew for you to go and get your copy of Dare to Be True. You can pre order it now. I will be including the link in this episode and so you can go and pre order it. It will be coming out this fall. I'm so, so excited and I can't wait. We're going to be doing some really fun series all about some of the content in this book. But you're going to want to get your hands on it because there's some really, really fun special pieces in this book that you can't get in this podcast. So you guys can go and pre order Dare to Be True now if you want to break free from what is breaking you multiple ways.

[Lisa Harper]

One is just like what you said. You gotta have a prayer closet. So whether it's literal or metaphorical, I spend a lot of time in the morning with the Lord, get up early. I live out in the boonies, so it's crickets. And Jesus spend a lot of time in his word. Again, this is not a rule book. It's not a textbook. It's a love story. And it gets better. See, S. Lewis says, Christianity is better on the inside than it is on the outside. I am still. I'm finishing a doctorate. So I went back to school for doctorate in my 50s because, missy, I brought my little girl home from Haiti through the miracle of adoption. And I thought, school's gonna be hard for her, so I thought it would be so cool if we're both doing homework together at the kitchen table. So I went back to school in my late 50s for a doctorate. And, Maddie, I mean, I'm telling you, God's word gets better and better. You know, people think that this is. All too often. They think it's boring. And I'm like, oh, my heavens, have you read this? This is so. The narrative is so amazing.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

The drama.

[Lisa Harper]

Like, I was just reading Deuteronomy 22 the other day. I mean, everybody gets a bonus if you've been reading Deuteronomy in your.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

In your.

[Lisa Harper]

Your quiet time. But there's this story in Deuteronomy that sounds. It sounds real Jerry Springer at first. It talks about a guy who has. We talked about. About sexual abuse earlier, who has abused a girl. And it says, then she gives her dad 50 shekels of silver, and then he has to marry her. And you're like, oh, gosh, that is awful. Sounds like at first glance that you're adding insult to injury. This. This poor woman has been abused by this guy. Then she has to marry him, and he puts a ring on it, and you're like, no, no, no, no. You got to get the historical context of what was going on in that era, in Semitic culture, in Israel's culture. And we could call it the first iteration of Sharia law. Any woman over the age of 12 who's not married or engaged to be married is liable to be violated by any man.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wow.

[Lisa Harper]

The consequence for the man is nada. Not a slap on the wrist. So God effectively kind of steps over the fence of culture and says, you're not going to abuse my daughters anymore. So if you abuse one of my girls, here's the deal. You have to make her financially independent. Back then, women couldn't hold property. So he says, you have to give it to her father. You marry her, not to re. Violate her, to give her a last name, to begin to restore some of the dignity you stole. It is this incredibly affirming thing for women who've been abused. And so many people, you know, think of the Old Testament as. It's like unibrowed. God is a librarian. It's mean. And then Jesus comes on the New Testament. Everything's happy, clappy. I'm like, nope, it's not the Bible. He has been kind from the very beginning. You see this redemptive history from the very beginning. But we've got to take time and not just spend five minutes in God's Word. You've got to get context. You get context and go, dog, gone. This gets better and better. If you read it like Instacart, you're not going to get the joy and the, the hope and the peace that is just infused in this love story.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

That's so good. Because I say on this podcast all the time, I'm like, this podcast is meant to be. Be a sub, a supplement, not a substitute.

[Lisa Harper]

That's it.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

So this is only meant to add to your quiet time. It's not meant to replace your quiet time. It's not meant to be your quiet time. And I think a lot of times we listen to Sunday services or other sermons or podcasts or even Christian books, and we use that as our quiet time. Those things are great, you know, godly wisdom. Find it, search it, listen to it, have it in your life. But you gotta be in God, God's Word in order to know God's voice and in order to follow God's will. And so it's so important for us, like you're saying, to be in God's Word. And what would you say? Because there's probably a lot of people listening to this who maybe their understanding of the Bible has been, it's boring. Or maybe it's like, it's. It's confusing. Like, I'm reading it and I'm not understanding it. So what would be your advice on how can you study God's Word? How can you meditate on God's Word and, and really begin to understand, understand it in order for it to affect change or in order for it to be even, like, readily available in your heart and on your tongue, to be able to share it with others. Because anytime someone asks me for advice, right, I want to be able to point to Scripture and to point to what God has to say and not just give people Maddie's opinions. And so I always want to challenge those who listen to stay true. Like in order for us to point other people to the truth, we've got to know the truth. But a lot of times it can be really, really hard to remember scripture or understand scripture. And so what would be your advice for that?

[Lisa Harper]

Well, I mean there's, we could, that's like saying how, you know, how do we, how do we enjoy chips and queso? Well, there's a million ways you can dunk it. You can totally. So there's a lot of different ways to approach scripture, but it from kind of a 30,000 foot view, I'd say you've got to understand, you know, this is the Bible takes place under a period of thousands of years written by 40 plus authors. And so you've, everything hangs under this canopy of grace. So you're going to read Genesis a little different than you would read the Psalms. The Psalms are smack but dab in the middle of the Bible, 150 of them. They were all originally written as songs. S O N G S so it's like God's Spotify list. We're going to read song lyrics differently than you read historical narrative. And so I'd say back up and study just a little bit bit how to study God's word. If you're, if you're new to the faith, then I would say, you know, you might want to read a psalm. They're real encouraging because they read like a journal. But then jump to the Gospel of John because the first four books in the New Testament, that's the literary compilation of the earthly life and ministry of Jesus Christ. So it's historical but true stories of what Jesus said. So you got to kind of understand what you're reading. If you jump straight to Revelation, you're probably going to be a little overwhelmed. You jump straight to Leviticus, you're, you're probably going to be a little overwhelmed by all the rules and the blood and the scabs, but even Leviticus, like Leviticus 7, because again, you've got to go, this is redemptive history. So there's all these amazing stories even, even in the stories that you go, what's that about? Leviticus 7 tells the story about when God was telling his people the Israelites early in. Here's how I want you to make an offering if you're grateful. And you go, okay. So he's giving him parameters for sacrifice and he says, I Want you to bring. They have to bring a meat offering. So it can be something small as a goat, as big as a bull. And then he says, I want you to bring all this bread, and you bring it to the temple. So in other words, if you're. If you don't have a lot of bank, then you bring a sheep. That's about 40 pounds of meat. If you've got a lot of bank, then you can bring a bull that's about 1200 pounds of meat. And then you bring all this bread, and he says, sacrifice it at the altar, and you give some to the priest, because that's how they ate some of the bread, some of the meat, and then the rest you have to eat before the next day. And you go, well, how is that encouraging? Well, stop and think, Maddie. Even if you. If. Even if you were. If y' all were struggling and you could only afford a sheep, you've got 30 pounds of mutton to meet before the sun comes up tomorrow. Giving a few pounds to the priest. How in the Sam Hill are you going to eat 30 pounds of mutton before tomorrow morning? How are you going to eat 30 loaves of bread? You've got to have a party. So even in Leviticus, you see this theme that's picked up again in Paul's writings of I want y' all to be together. 98% of the biblical imperatives, that just means when God tells us to do something are set in the context of community. So from the very beginning, you see this theme. God exists as a trinity. He knows loneliness came with a fall. So he's God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. You see that theme of community picked up. You see all these themes from beginning to end of, oh, wow. He has always been in the process of redeeming our inherent dignity as his sons and his daughters. So I'd say first thing you have to do when you step into scripture is not just hunt and peck, or you will be overwhelmed, but I'd say stop and go, okay, how many books are there? Let me think about the original audience. There's a new NIV application Bible. And in front of every single book of the Bible, it'll give you context. So you go, oh, here's the original audience. Oh, here's who was writing it. Here's what was going on historically. Then you can start taking apart those themes that are so relevant today. Because this is not an ancient textbook. This is a relevant love story for today. But bring your mind to it. Don't just hunt and peck, don't do it like you're doing Instacart or Amazon prime that you spend five minutes, take a little time to soak in it and it will change your life. Then you'll remember there's all these hooks in the form of stories. And then you remember the truths that God like you're saying stay true. But also things that you can encourage other people with.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

So good. This is an ad by BetterHelp. Between social media, TV and endless wellness content, it can feel like everyone has advice on how to take care of your mind. But sometimes the more you scroll, the more confused and overwhelmed you feel. If you've ever asked yourself, where do I even start? You're not alone. That's why having real conversations with a licensed therapist can make makes such a difference. Therapy gives you space to unpack what's going on, learn tools to manage stress and build habits that actually support your mental wellness, not just add to your to do list. Better Help is the world's largest online therapy platform with over 30, 000 therapists and more than 5 million people served globally. Whether you're navigating a major life change or just need help setting healthy boundaries, BetterHelp makes it easy to get started. And you can switch therapy therapists at any time. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with Better Help our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com staytrue that's betterhelp h E-L-P.com staytrue and it talks about in Ephesians one, you know, asking the Lord for wisdom and insight so that we may know him better. And something that I like to do before I open up God's word. And I don't do this perfectly every single day, but when I remember to is just pray like lord, give me, give me wisdom and insight so that I may know your word, so that I may know you, so that I may be drawn to you, so they might understand what you're trying to teach me about you and how to also apply this to my life. And, and I just think even a simple prayer like that can be so, so helpful to even get our minds and hearts right. I think a lot of times when we read God's word, we're just, it's still so self focused. It's so like, okay God, what do you have to give me? Like what, what? What do you have to give me? And I Think when we can pray a prayer like that, it really changes our, our mindset to say, God, I want to fall more in love with you. I want to know more about you. I want to learn how I can live a life of true worship unto you. And, and, and so I think even a prayer like that can be so helpful. And I love that you spoke to. I say this on my podcast all the time, as if you're starting and reading the Bible for the first time. Go to the Book of John. That's like my favorite book of the Bible. And it's the life of Jesus. And the teachings in it are so powerful. It's like if you're so new to the faith, it's like so easy to understand. And if you've been following Jesus your entire life, it's so profound and convicting. It's like it doesn't matter where you are on the spectrum in your faith journey, just the Book of John is so.

[Lisa Harper]

And you see it bigger, don't you? Love when you pray that prayer of Holy Spirit, Enlighten me. And then you go, oh, I'm seeing something I've never seen before. And it may be a story you've read or you've cross stitched a hundred times. And you go, I didn't see that the first hundred times because it's not a static text. Somehow it is supernatural. And you'll see different facets to the diamond that you go, oh, that's fresh today. I needed that today.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It's so true because it says that the word of God, it's, it's God breathed. Like the Bible is God, but scripture.

[Lisa Harper]

Isos Paul had to come up with a new word. That word didn't exist in the lexicon. He wrote that word to describe scripture. Theo, God, Eustos, God breathed.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wow. I didn't know that. That, I mean, because it's true. I, I grew up in the church and have known, you know, the Lord by the grace of God my whole life. But every single time I read the Bible, it's like I will read a chapter I've read a hundred times and I'm like, I've never heard that before. I've never thought that before. I never felt that before. Like, and the Holy Spirit. And that's, that's the thing is, like it. Whether you have a doctorate or whether you are, you know, someone who's picking up a Bible for the first time, time, what we need is the Holy Spirit in order to understand and read the Word of God, in order for it to do any kind of a work in our heart. I want to kind of shift gears. And I'm. I'm so thankful for how honestly this started, because I think this is a perfect setup for what I want to talk about today. We've never really talked about this on the podcast before, so I'm really excited about this topic. I have heard of a lot of people who have, and I've actually, like, had my own personal experiences with this, but have experienced, you know, church hurt and spiritual manipulation, deconstruction of the faith. Lots of different testimonials of people who have walked away from the faith because of another follower of Jesus or because of going to a church service and something was said or something was done, being manipulated or hurt by a Christian leader. And so I really want to tackle those topics, which sound really intense, but I honestly feel like this is going to be really, really, really helpful for those listening.

[Lisa Harper]

Timely, though, because it's happening. At least it seems to be exacerbated right now.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yes. All over. And, and, and yes, because I. What happens is, is for a lot of people, when you go to, say, you go to a megachurch and you are, you are transformed by the grace of God while attending that megachurch, and then that megachurch pastor commits a moral failure, and now all of a sudden you're left with this, this pit in your stomach of, so was my faith even real? Like, can I trust God? If that, if that person can fall into that, then. Then who? Like, then I don't even know if I want to trust God anymore. And it starts this whole spiral. And I've seen so many people walk away from the faith and choose not to trust God because of a situation like that. And so I do, I agree. I think this is. Is such a relevant topic, and I think such an important component of this is to have your own intimate relationship with God, to know God's word voice for yourself, to grow in spiritual maturity for yourself. And so I guess, like, one, just to start out, I would love for us to just speak into and ask you, like, what would you say to those who have been hurt by the church or hurt by a Christian leader?

[Lisa Harper]

First, I'd say, I'm so sorry. So, so sorry. And it's happened to me too, Maddie. And I think our culture so celebrates platforms even more so than character. But regardless, I've. I've been blessed to have some men and women that I followed for years who have not fallen. However, we're not supposed to follow them because even the great saints of scripture. Paul fell, David fell, Moses fell over and over and over again. You see these failures. Spurgeon is one of my theological heroes. Let's map out this week's amazing destinations and travel tips. Honestly, Will, I didn't plan any trips, but I did switch to T Mobile with their new Family Freedom offer. That's not the itinerary we're following. Well, I'm departing from AT&T and embarking on a new journey with T Mobile.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

They paid off my family's four phones up to $3200 and gave us four new phones on the house.

[Lisa Harper]

Bon voyage.

[T-Mobile Ad]

Introducing Family Freedom. Our lowest cost will switch our biggest family savings all on America's largest 5G network. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com familyfreedom up to $800 per line via virtual prepaid card. Typically takes 15 days. Free phones via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement, eg Apple iPhone 16, 128 gigabyte 82999 eligible trade in eg iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits. End and balance due if you pay off early or cancel contact.

[Lisa Harper]

Timo Noble Spurgeon struggled with depression. Charles Spurgeon said that there are moments in his life when he felt like he was living in a dungeon underneath a castle of despair. So you're like, you know God's word backwards and forwards. You know this. Before social media, thousands were getting his sermons every single week. I mean, one of the most influential leaders in modern Christendom, and he struggled with depression. And you go, we are not the hope. We are the creator, not the Creator. And so I think our culture tends to all too often, we, we create these theological spiritual heroes. And then at some level, culture celebrates when they're torn down and they are not our hope. Jesus is our hope. So absolutely follow a pastor, follow leaders who, as best you can tell, are saying, this is truth. My opinion is not truth. And then you already said some, some great wise words a few minutes ago when you said everything else has to augment the word of God and the voice of God in your life. So if the sermon that you're listening to once a week, maybe twice a week is your, is your main meal, you're going to fall, you're going to. That Runway is going to crash pretty quickly. You have to have an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ and your first voice has to be Holy Spirit, the inscription word of God. If you're listening to someone's messages and that is the primary way you engage with God, you're going to be disappointed really, really quickly because there is no perfect image, Bear. We all need Jesus. That being said, I think there has to be a place for lament and grief. I've had some people I really loved in the last couple of years who had moral failures. And I was. I remember the last phone call I got from Christine Caine about six months ago, Maddy. I just sat down in the garage and wept. I was so taken aback by one of my heroes who fell. And then I had to search my own heart and go, lisa, who are you leaning on? Jesus himself or people who are representing Jesus? And I kind of had to back up and go, okay, where have I put too much hope in mankind? And I don't want to sound jaded, but at the end of the day, Jesus is my hope. Jesus is my Savior. I listen to pastors and we are called to be in community. We're called to be in church. Zoom. Church is not enough. That's biblical. Hebrews talks about gathering together and all the more as we see the day approaching. So I'm not one to say you need to be out of fellowship, but that's not where we go. That's not our main hope. Our main hope is Christ himself. We gather together as a community of Christ followers to exhort one another, to encourage one another to have accountability, to have fellowship. But I think our culture has done an abysmal job of advocating heroes. And then also there's almost a glee when a hero falls instead of grief. I think there has to be grief and prayer and a cognizance that the gospel is our hope instead of an entity or even one individual or church or a movement. If it's not based on Jesus, then.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It'S just noise, man. And I can relate to being really hurt by the church, being judged by the church, being just gossip taking place about me in the church.

[Lisa Harper]

And.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And it is really, really hard. And honestly, for about a year, I found myself distancing myself from the church and sorry, you know, falling into the, like, listening to sermons, but not going and not partaking in small group and fellowship within the body of Christ. And I had this moment of real life, like, as I was just, you know, talking it up with God and just realizing, okay, I've been hurt by the church, church, but I've also been absolutely changed and transformed by the church. I've been hurt by people of God, but I've also been healed and freed by the people of God through the spirit of God, right? And I'm only hurting Myself, to keep myself distanced from the church. And I had to grieve and I had to, I had to figure that out with the Lord for myself. But. And so I want anyone listening, like, as we're talking about all of this, I talk about on this podcast all the time, the importance of being plugged into a local church, the importance of having community, the importance of finding wise counsel that's so needed. And at the same time, there are many who have been very, very much hurt by the church. And so I want to just have a disclaimer there because, yes, nothing we're talking about is saying, don't you need to be plugged into a local church? That is so crucial and so important, even if you've been hurt by the church. But a lot of what you're saying reminded me of. I was having a conversation with, with a friend and we were talking about how it's so important to make sure that you're putting your hope in Jesus and not in another person. Because what if, you know, people were following? You know, say, say that everyone was just following the disciples instead of following Jesus, and then what would have happened if they were following Judas?

[Lisa Harper]

It's like, exactly.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Okay, if you're, if you're following Judas and not Jesus, then where is that taking you?

[Lisa Harper]

That's right.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

But if your hope is in Jesus, then even when Judas, Judas fell and fell into sin that led to death, you know, thank God that even through that tragedy, you still have a hope that is much greater and, and that will never fail you. And so for me, even as I've seen, you know, leaders fall and I've been manipulated by spiritual leadership and I've been hurt by the church and gossiped about and rejected, you know, by the church, I also can say, thank God that my hope is in him. And even though I've been hurt by the church, I also understand that I'm called to the church and I'm called to be. And we're, we're human beings.

[Lisa Harper]

Well, that's it. We tend to segregate the church from humanity. People are flawed.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yes.

[Lisa Harper]

People will always hurt you. Relationships, there's a risk to relationship. But God says, I've called you to relationship. So there is no perfect church. If there was, as soon as I joined it, it would be wildly imperfect. And so don't expect church to meet all of your emotional expectations because it's a group of flawed image bears coming together, trying to be more Christ like. But there, there are going to be wounds. There are going to be hurt feelings. That is just life because we aren't completely perfected yet. We're in the process of sanctification, and yet he doesn't absolve us from relationship. The further you get into scripture, the more you see that that constant I want y' all to be together. I want y' all to be together. I want y' all to be together. And so I think even the being hurt and being healed is part of community. I love C.S. lewis. You know the. The old quote about if you love anything, you will be hurt. And he says, you can lock yourself away and basically seal your heart off and you won't be hurt, but your heart will become impenetrable, become a coffin. And so I made a choice that's a little different than church hurt. But I remember in my 40s realizing I was just so broken. Maddie in my 20s and 30s, really drawn to abusive men. That was kind of part of my past. And God protected me from the guys I was most protected to and then most drawn to. And then the few good godly guys I dated, God protected them from me me because I was such a hot mess.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Let's be real. Rest is hard to come by when your mind is running through tomorrow's plans. Your schedule is packed, and your phone is never more than an arm's reach away. But what if your bed could actually help you slow down? Bowl and branch sheets have been a game changer for me. These signature sheets are made with 100 organic cotton. No toxins, just pure softness that literally gets better with every wash. I honestly look forward to getting into bed every night. They are that soft. These sheets are ethically made by artisans who are paid fair wages. And that matters, especially when we're trying to live with purpose and integrity in every part of our lives, including how we rest. If you've been craving deeper rest, then these sheets would be the perfect solution for you. Feel the difference an extraordinary night's sleep can make with bowl and Branch get 15% off off plus free shipping on your first set of [e-mail] Stay true. That's bull and Branch B O L L A N--Branch.com StayTrue to save 15 and unlock free shipping exclusions apply.

[Lisa Harper]

But I realized in my 40s, oh shoot, I'm probably not going to have biological children. I'm aging out. And I had kind of this crossroads of realizing I can either choose to be in relationship with my friends who are moms, her parents, and their children, and that's going to Be painful because at the end of the day, I go home and I don't have a child of my own. There's no stocking on the mantle. There's nobody to take to chick Fil A who calls me mommy. Or I can choose to be hard and to be self protective. And it was this realization of relationships. Man, they are the most glorious thing, but their risk is. And wounds come with relationships. And I thought I'd rather be hurt than be hard. I'd rather lean into life. Because that's where, I mean, that's, that's really where you see Jesus. That's where you could become more like Jesus. But it is a choice. And I have a lot of friends this season who've said, I'm backing up. I'm too disappointed. I've had too much church hurt. And I think, you know what? If you need to take a breather, take a breather. But don't walk away from the body of Christ. Do not walk away from relationship, because at the end of the day, you're not going to experience the fullness that God has for us. I love that even in the wisdom of God, he exists himself in community. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Augustine, one of my favorite old dead guys says, only the Christian God is a perfect community unto himself. And it says in Genesis 1:26 and 27, we were created in his image, in their image. So we were created by an us, by a perfect us. In other words, we are hardwired for community as Christ followers. That means the body of Christ. And so, yeah, it comes with some bumps and some bruises, but there is, you know, it's like there's rapture and there's rapture at the same time. John Calvin says about the Psalter, there's dancing and there's weeping in the psalms. That's church. I mean, sometimes it's really stinking hard. But you will not, I don't think, have abundant life if you try to live it independently.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

That's so good. Thank you for, for sharing that. Because it is. It's so good that we were made from community, for community.

[Lisa Harper]

That's right.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And we can't do the life that God has called us to do apart from community, communion with him and communion with each other.

[Lisa Harper]

But Maddie, I love that you're bringing it up. And I would say lament, find a safe place. Find some safe people. There's no perfect people, but find safe people who love Jesus and say, I ache. Find a place where you can say, y' All I need you to take a corner of my mat and carry me to the roof and lower me to Jesus. Because the weight of this is a little too heavy for me to carry by myself right now. Be careful not to gossip, gossip, but find a safe place. It may be a counselor, maybe another pastor to go. I was really, really, really disappointed. One of my mentors here in town, a pastor named Scotty Smith, years ago I went to him. I'd experienced some major church hurt and some gossip, disguises, prayer request. And I just was like, scotty, I, I, my heart is broken. And I expected it to be broken by unbelievers. I didn't expect it to be broken by the Christ followers. I didn't expect the judgment and the cruelty. And I'm so grateful for a pastor who just started with, I'm so sorry. He didn't try to fix it. He didn't excuse it. He didn't throw theological terms on it. He just sat with me and said, I'm really sorry. Tell me how you feel. And so I'd say for those people who even to hear you say that, it may right now just go, oh, golly, this is where I am right now. Find a safe place to grieve that is biblical. Over half of the. Well, the most often asked question in the Bible is how much longer it's, it's I grieve. And so find a place to grieve where you've been wounded by the body of Christ. I'm so sorry. Find a place to grieve that. And then you might, you won't find a perfect church, but you might need to find a safer, more biblically sound body of believers to run with.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

That's beautiful. And, and how, how can you grow in spiritual discernment when maybe you're, you find yourself in a situation where someone who would also say that they're a Christian and a follower of Jesus, but they're using theology and scripture to, you know, maybe manipulate you to get something from you?

[Lisa Harper]

Sure.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

How do we respond in those situations? How do we deal with that if that's happened to us in the past? And also, how do we grow in wisdom and discernment to keep that from happening in the future?

[Lisa Harper]

It's a great question. This is simplistic, Maddie, but I always go back to, is it shaped like Jesus? Because if you have a leader who's shaped like Jesus, then there will be, there will be a propensity that they will, they will wash other people's feet. There will be humility There will be kindness, there will be compassion. There will be a truth that may not be politically correct. So you have to study the life of Christ in order to discern whether something is shaped like Jesus or not. If you find a leader who's saying, I'm the only way that you can find peace with God, I'm like, that's not biblically sound. Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. And so you've got to study the life of Christ. You can look at the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. If you have a leader. And I'll say, Louis Giglio is one of my favorite church leaders. You look at Louis and Shelley, and I'm not saying they're imperfect, but I've known Louie and Shelley for decades, and you see this consistent Christ likeness in their leadership. Young leaders, I love you. I love you, Sadie. And Christian. I can look at even the life Sadie has lived thus far and go, there is a consistency in humility and truth telling. So do not. Do not put leaders on a pedestal. Find Christian leaders who follow Jesus, who are shaped like Jesus. The only way to discern that is to study the life of Christ. You've already said, look at the Gospel of John. Look at the other Gospels. Look at the fruit of the spear. One of my favorite things that happened this past year, I'm not good at truncating. Is it okay if I tell a story that's a speech long? I was at a. I go to a lot of estrogen festivals. So I was at this Christian women's event, and toward the end of this night together, the woman running it said, if you're lonely, would you stand up? And we want to pray for you. And I thought that was so cool because, you know, sometimes in Christendom, we tend to. To say, I'll pray for you on Wednesday. I'm like, what if I'm struggling on Thursday? So I was like, cool, we're gonna pray right now. Well, when she said, if you're lonely, like maybe 40 women stood up there, like 500 women. This woman stood up just right on the front row. And I thought, okay, that's epic. Like, we've got quilted Bible covers and crop pants, and she's being honest. And I need to be prayed for right now. And I thought, you know, I don't bring that much to the table, but I can hug like a boss. And I thought, this woman has just admitted she's struggling. We're in this you know, group environment that could be a little intimidating. I thought, I'm making a beeline for this chick and I'm just gonna hug her while we're praying for. So I make my way to this woman, I'm on the front row and I just grab her into a bear hug. You know, I'm old as dirt, so it's pretty asexual when I hug. Now I can hug anybody and it's relatively safe. It's like, Nana's come to the table, baby. So I'm hugging this woman. Well, the girl who is praying, I know pretty well. And she's contemplative. I thought she's not going to be as long winded as Mason. So I expect this like two or three minute prayer. Well, she decides to catch up on her Bible reading plan and just praise and praise and praise. And this poor woman. I think it's going to be a short hug. And this hug is just this, the hug that lasts forever. And I'm kind of tickled, and she's kind of tickled. And I thought, I need to explain to her, I'm sorry if this has become traumatizing, that this is the hug that won't end. And she's. It's a sold out event. She. She doesn't have a place to go because she's on the front row. I'm back against the stage, so I kind of rear my head back to go, I'm so sorry. And when I do, she says, I'm so sorry. And I went, oh, no, no, no, I love this. I love we're more honest. She goes, no, I'm really sorry. And I said, no, no, I love it when we're dishonest in the community of Christ. She goes, no, I'm really sorry. I just got a big glob of snot in your hair, Maddie. I got so tickled because I thought, what do you say to that? You just got a big glob of snot. And I was like, oh, oh. I mean, what do you say? It was so funny. Then they called me up to pray and then. You can't hide it. I didn't have time to go to the restroom. Well, I got home that night and of course I took a shower and I stepped out of the shower and I looked in the mirror and I just had this epiphany. I thought, I think I've been to 60 events this year, traveled all over the country talking about Jesus, the love of Jesus, the shape of Jesus, what it means to be christophoric. To be shaped like Jesus. And I thought, I think that's the holiest thing, the most Jesus shaped thing I had the undeserved privilege of being next to was to be close enough to another Christ follower that she got the residue of her heartache in my hair. And I thought, our Savior, the King of all kings, condescends to be close enough to us that we can get the residue of our heartache on him, on his hands, on his feet, in his side. If you are in a church where there's no one who's leaning close enough to you as an ambassador of Christ that you can be held when you're sad, that you can be prayed for when you're grieving, that you can come to for help, then I'd say you might not be in a Jesus shaped church because a Jesus shaped body wreaks humility. It really, it reeks kindness, it reeks truth when it's not convenient. It reeks compassion. And so I'm consistently asking myself questions of was I shaped like Jesus today? Was I kind today? Was I humble today? Was I talking about Jesus instead of myself today? We need to all aim to be like that. But we also need to aim to have communities like that.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Hey, friends, stop what you're doing because this is is important. I want to tell you guys about a skincare brand that I love called Nemi Skincare. Their new tallow line just launched and sold out in under three hours. But good news is it's finally back in stock for now. Now about this tallow line. It's made with one of the most nourishing ingredients that you can put on your skin. Tallow is rich in vitamins A, D, E and K and closely mirrors the natural makeup of our skin, helping hydrate, repair and protect. Protect. Neeme offers two products in this line. Sunshine Tallow Cream, a whipped lightweight moisturizer for daily use, and Buzzing Tallow Balm, a rich balm that deeply hydrates, perfect for nighttime or dry spots. If you're ready to support a brand that aligns with your faith and blesses your skin in the process, go to nemiskincare.com that's N I M I skincare.com use the code maddie10 for 10 off your order. Order again. That's maddie10 for 10 [e-mail] with neemi, you're not just caring for your skin. You're choosing truth, beauty and purpose. So good. And following leaders who are clothed in humility and pursuing the life of Jesus. And the heart of Jesus is so important because I can even say in my own marriage, like, the reason I'm able to submit and follow my husband so well is because he's being led by. By the spirit of God. Like, he's in the word of God and he's being changed and transformed by God daily. And so it's easy to submit to that leadership. And I think what can be challenging sometimes, and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this, what can be challenging sometimes is when maybe you're in some type of a leadership situation where, you know, it's preached that there should be submission and that there should be respect and that there should be honor, but they're not being led maybe by the Spirit of God or there's not that humility that marks their life life. What do you do in a situation where, you know, you are called to submit to leadership, but, you know, maybe they're not submitted to the leadership of God?

[Lisa Harper]

Yeah, I'd always say be careful to anyone who says honor me. And, and I've been in some of those leadership situations in my past. Like, no, we're supposed to honor Jesus. And so I honor you if God has placed you as my. As my leader. But you are not my ultimate honor. I honor Jesus. And if you're speaking something that does not stand up to God's word, then I will. Respectfully, Jesus is my Lord and master. No pastor is supposed to be your Lord and master. And so you've got to be careful with some of the submission texts in Scripture. They do tend to be manipulated. Got to go back to the original context. What was Paul actually saying there? Even Ephesians 5. You study Ephesians 5:5, and he's talking about Christ followers living in a culture that was so hierarchical, it was so just illustrated by people at the top and people at the bottom. And Paul was teaching Christians there should be mutual submission. You should love each other so well as slaves and masters, husbands and wives, Gentiles and Jews, that people should see you as family. So again, it comes back to compassion, to humility. With Jesus as our hub, if he's not the hub of your wheel, you're going to start rolling crooked really, really, really fast. And I am all about submitting to authority. But if those authorities aren't submitted wholly to Jesus Christ, then be very, very careful. Because sometimes human leadership can get cultish really, really fast. If they say, you just follow me, you just listen to me, I'm like, no, I listen to Jesus first, and then I'm submitted to church. I'm submitted to a body of believers. But Jesus has to be our ultimate Lord. Master.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah. Amen. How can you grow in spiritual discernment and spiritual maturity to be able to discern? Because we need wise counsel in our life. But sometimes maybe wise counsel even can speak against what you feel like God has called you to you. Or for example, I'll just give a personal example. And this is a crazy one. I felt, truly felt by God like I was supposed to say yes to going on the Bachelor. Makes no sense. I was in Bible college. I wanted to marry a youth pastor. I was in love with Jesus. And the opportunity that I didn't pursue that pursued me as I gave it to Jesus and sat at the feet of Jesus asking what am I to do? Felt led to do something that made no sense. Felt led to step out of the boat. And it felt like everyone in the boat behind me was very, very rightfully so. Confused. Sure. And. And then that's when like kind of the gossip and rejection and a lot of those things started happening. But I. I felt so led to say yes. And. And now there were circumstances within that Y. Yes, that could have been. So I think there's two parts of this question that I have that could have led to sin where I think I could have fallen into the ways of this world that would have led to sin where then wise counsel should have said, no, like you, you don't need to be doing this. But then I also would say that there are some times that we're called to step out of the boat where it doesn't make sense to the community around us and the wise counsel around us. But we feel called by God to say yes to it. And I kind of want to speak to both aspects of that. But what would you say to the person and how can you grow in spiritual discernment and spiritual maturity to know this is what God is calling me to do. This is where God's voice is leading me, even if those around me don't understand and agree with it.

[Lisa Harper]

Sure. You know, we've talked about this a lot. You really have to hear the voice of God. I think scripture speaks to three things that help us make. Make wise decisions when it comes to discerning God's will. One is a wise counsel where we have to be careful there. Sometimes we call wise counsel living our lives by poll or popularity. So wise counsel is not throwing a question out on social media and getting 200 responses. Wise counsel would be, you want a Paul in your Life. Somebody's a mentor, maybe I should say a Paulette. You need a Timothy. You need people in your life who are older, who are younger. You need shepherds, pastors. I actually pay for Christian counseling. People say, oh, we don't have to have Christian counseling. All the answers are in God's Word. I'm like, all the answers are in God's Word. And we're humans. And sometimes it's hard to pull the truth out of God's word and apply them to our deepest bruises. So I think you look at the kings, the great kings in Israel's history, they all had counsel. So I have a small, wise counsel of committed Christ followers, Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit speaks through in scripturated text, through the Bible, as well as through prayer. And. And when those things line up the Holy Spirit's voice through prayer, through the word of God, wise counsel, then you go there. You cannot live your life. According to poll, if you had asked everybody if you should go on the Bachelor, my heavens, Betsy, you would have never made a decision. It would have been announced. Analysis, paralysis. But you go with wise counsel, Holy Spirit, the word of God, they will line up and confirm it. And then sometimes, Maddie, I've made decisions that I thought in that moment. I really believe I'm following the counsel of people who love the Lord, who have walked with Jesus longer than I have. God's word. And how I'm hearing the Holy Spirit in prayer, and it's only been, you know, three or four steps later that I go, oops. I don't think maybe that turn was correct. God is not capricious. He's not trying to punk us. You go back to, I love the story of Samson in Judges. And remember, he was the Romeo without a clue, and he broke his Nazarite vows. This is in Judges chapter, I think chapter six through 12. But he broke his vows. He. He does all this stuff and is really, really rebellious. And yet God loves Samson. And at kind of the pinnacle of his rebellion, it says he goes to a place to date a girl named Delilah. And the word there is. We read it in scripture as a different word, but the word in the original Hebrew is the valley of vineyards. It's the valley of Sorek. That's a valley of vineyards. In other words, kind of Napa Valley. He's a Nazarite. One of his Nazarite vows is, you can't have anything to do with the fruit of the vine. No wine, no grapes, no raisins. And God says to this man who's rebellion A million times. Don't date a girl in the valley of vineyards. It's this neon sign, Samson, don't go this way. He's not trying to punk us. He's a good God. He's for us, not against us. So if you're seeking God's voice when you're making decision, he usually will illuminate the step in front of you. Of course we can misstep. We're human. We can miss here. But he's not going to go, oh, well, you totally blew it. You keep following the Lord and he's going to bring you back into the way of wisdom. So I think we tend to think of following God's will as there's this one tiny razor's edge and there's one red X. He is a good God, so he will shepherd us toward our purpose, toward what is good for us. If you are seeking him. So I think for those people who are going, gosh, I'm in front of a crossroads or this huge decision, the bachelor, of course you're going to get pushback on that because people buying laundry, judgmental and that, that, you know, people are going to see that as, oh, my goodness, that was such a worldly decision. Yeah, totally. Yeah, that was worldly. How glorious to have a platform that big to talk about what a good God. We have to talk about maintaining your purity. So if you have peace with God after something like that, don't live your life by Paul. Look at the people who've come to know Christ because of the platform he gave you. I had people who told me it was ungodly for me to adopt my daughter. If I showed you all of the social media, unsolicited advice I got of this is not theologically sound because you're an older, single, one woman. And I really struggle with that. And I prayed and I sought counsel, and at the end of the day, I thought, there's 149 million orphans in the world as we know it today. Millions of babies will die before they even get through infancy because of something as simple as having access to clean water. Is it God's best for an orphan to be with an old single momma in Nashville? No. God's best would have been that that child would have never been orphaned. They were orphaned because we live in a fallen world. Can I in good conscience go to sleep at night going, he tells us to take care of widows and orphans, and I've ignored a baby girl who's going to die in Haiti if I didn't step and Say, yes, you can. You can diss me for that. That's not your journey. That's my journey. I listened to Counsel, and now 11 years later, I know that that was God's will for my life. But had I lived my life according to poll, I wouldn't have adopted Missy. Have I messed up and missed the will of God? Absolutely. Has he disciplined me? Yes. Was it braided with mercy? Yes. Yes. He's a good God. So keep seeking the Lord. Seek the answers in this love story. That's not a rule book. Have a counsel of wisdom that involves being engaged in a body of other Christ followers and then be humble. If you messed up, say, lord, I am so sorry. See if there's any offensive way in me and lead me into the way everlasting. David was the king of Israel. He screwed up really badly. He got jiggy with Bathsheba, and there was great discipline.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I don't think I've heard got jiggy at all.

[Lisa Harper]

Great discipline. And yet God said, that's a man after my own heart. So follow the Lord, but you're not gonna, you're not gonna live a perfect life because we haven't been glorified yet. And so be quick to say you're sorry, be slow to take offense.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

That's so. That's so good. And, and you see that David is, is called that and that he leaves that legacy. Whereas other kings who made mistakes don't have the same legacy. And just because they didn't repent, because they did repent. David's heart was so broken over his sin and so broken over his humanity and being led by his flesh that he repented before the Lord. And he was like. And when the Lord, you know, there was punishment, there was discipline after his sin, he's like, the Lord gives, the Lord takes away. Like, everything I have is the Lord's. And I. Whatever he sees as worthy to whatever he deems as good to do. Like, I trust him. And he just had such a. Such a posture of humility. It's such a fear of the Lord. And, and like you said, like. And he's. And he wasn't perfect, and we're not perfect and we're going to fall. And that just, that was so good. And there were so many thoughts that came to my mind as you were, as you were talking. And, and thank you for sharing that story, because I know that it also deeply resonates in, in different ways with a lot of people who have, you know, been given a lot of advice that may have. I think masqueraded itself as life giving or truth, but really was somebody.

[Lisa Harper]

If somebody uses the Bible to shame you, they're taking out of context.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Amen.

[Lisa Harper]

Truth is convicting, but it's not shaming. I had some, some stuff recently on social media and my publisher said, lisa, we'd like for you to reply to this, to rebut this. And I said, no. I said, that's not true. But I could give him a hundred other things that are worse than that that are true. So I want to walk in humility and I want to always say, but for the grace of God, I could do just about anything I've been accused of doing. I think we are way too quick to critique, but we're also too quick to take offense. I'm like, I want to be like Nehemiah, man. I want to stay on the wall. And when everybody's fussing down here, whatever it is, throwing rocks, you know, unsolicited criticism, it's like, that's fine. That's your opinion. Feel free to say that I'm gonna follow Jesus. And unless what you're saying is really doing damage to the body of Christ or to my kid. Now you can say anything about me, Maddie, you mess with Missy, I will cut you. But it's like, let's just, let's just run toward Jesus and not worry too much about, about all the rabbit rousers on the right, the left.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It's so good. It's so true of, of even the posture of just like, lord, search my heart and remove in a defensive way in me. There, there are some situations where maybe someone else is at fault. 99. But if you have 1% to own, own your 1%. And, and, and I want to speak to. There are situations where you have been deeply hurt, abused by the church. And for that we say we are so sorry. And I pray that there is great redemption.

[Lisa Harper]

And don't stay in an abusive situation.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Do not stay in abuse.

[Lisa Harper]

God loves you. God does not. God's will does not include. Stay in that abuse until it gets better. Do not stay in an abusive situation.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

No, no. And, and, and then on the flip side of that, I think that we also live in a culture where we want. We, we believe that the church and people should affirm all that we feel. And so, and so if you speak against what I feel and what I want, and if God's word, Word speaks against what I feel and what I want, then, then you've hurt me. And so therefore I'm rejecting you. I'm Going to post about it on social media. I'm gonna. I'm gonna drag you. And I also want to speak to the Word of God is in a way meant to offend us. The Word of God was a stench.

[Lisa Harper]

Of death to those who are dying, baby. Yep.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And it says that the Word of God is. Is. Is to correct and to rebuke and to train in righteousness. And so there is. There is a calling for those who are called to teach the Word of God that what they speak should, in a way, hurt you. I mean, it should, because it should be the Word of God. And the Word of God should not in a. In a way that leads you away from God hurt you, but in a way that leads you to God hurt you in a way that leads you to repentance, in a way that leads you to conviction, not in a way, like you said, that leads you to shame and that leads you to. To bondage and fear and isolation. But, but the Word of God, the Spirit of God and the people of God should lead us to conviction and repentance and to want Jesus more. And so if you've been in a situation where you've been called out by a pastor and. Or a friend who loves God and they're saying, hey, the life you're living is a life of sin, and there's more, God has more for you, you're not meant to stay stuck in that relationship that's causing you to be separated and distant from God. God, that's causing your intimacy with God to be divided. You're not meant to stay, you know, in that. In that relationship with sexual sin or in that. In that situationship or whatever it may be. And you have a friend or a pastor that calls you out in that, and you choose to get offended and hurt and you choose to then separate yourself, I also want to speak to that situation too. That's great, because I do think that we do live in a culture where everyone believes that. That love is affirmation, whereas God is love. And, and, and Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. And so Jesus is saying, I am the truth. And the truth doesn't always agree with what you feel and with what you want. The truth is loving, but the truth is sometimes hard to hear. And so I. I also want to speak to that side of things too, and would love Lisa just to. To close out for you to just maybe share with those listening some really practical ways that they can grow in spiritual maturity and grow in discerning the voice of God for themselves. And then we'd love for you to just close us in prayer.

[Lisa Harper]

I'd love to do that. Get in community. If you are not yet involved in small group Bible study. Bible study is not boring. I promise, I promise, I promise. Some Bible teachers, myself included, can be boring, but the Bible is not boring. It's such redemptive narrative. So get in a church community, find a Bible study, listen to Stay True. As Maddie said, it's augmenting, but put voices of life in your life. I love the Dwell Bible app because sometimes I'm busy, I'm driving around, I'm working out. Not as much as I should have a lot of jiggly parts, but sometimes I'm not always reading the Bible, but. But it's always playing in my car. I have an iPad with a Bible on it that plays in our house because, Lord have mercy, sometimes I'm saying words that aren't in the Bible. So I want to clean all that junk out of my house. So just be pouring what God speaks into you and then find a couple of safe relationships. All too often we've seen Christianity is rigid. It's not rigid, y'. All. It is so life giving to be in honest relationships with people who go, I really need you to pray for me. I'm struggling here. I'm struggling with this passage. I don't get it. I feel like God is distant from me. Being a vibrant Christ follower doesn't mean you have it all together. It means you know where to go when you don't have it all together. So I'd say just really be honest in your pursuit of God and your pursuit of godly company. And then if you are really, really new to Christianity or you're not sure, sure, you're kind of circling this thing called faith. You're not sure if it's true. Maybe you're. You're reading other books about Jesus being an existential construct. Pursue Jesus. Don't pursue religiosity. Yeah, pursue Jesus. Read the Gospel of John. Study the life of Christ. You'll be amazed at the kindness, at the grace, at the unconditional love, at the truth, at the the strength. He's not a wimpy guy with hair extensions dance around the Sea of Galilee. He is. He is a lamb, but he's a lion of Judah. And so pursue Jesus. You will. You will not be disappointed if you pursue Jesus. He is the way, the truth and life he's living. Hope he's the one who sticks closer than brother. He is. He's our very breath. And he loves you more than you can possibly ask or imagine. So. So let's pray. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, King Jesus, Lord Jesus, the Christ, the Lily, the valley, the Rose of Sharon, the outfit and the Omega Jesus. Thank you that you are not a far away God. Thank you that you're an up close personal savior that we can lean into you with. With all our junk. Thank you that we don't have to clean ourselves up before coming to you. Thank you that you tell us to cast all our cares on you because you care for us, Lord Jesus. We pray for more grace that you'd give us grace to lean more fully into who you are as our Creator Redeemer. Thank you that you love us unconditionally. Thank you that you are accessible, perfectly authoritative and perfectly accessible at the same time. Thank you that we can get the residue of our heartache. And you're here, Jesus. We love you. We want to know you more. And we know that the only way we can do that is by Holy Spirit, by this love letter we call the Bible. And so, Lord, we pray that you would open the eyes of our hearts bigger so that we would see you, we would hear you, we would understand you more fully. And we ask all these things by your name, Jesus, that perfect name, the name that one day every single knee will bow before the name of Jesus. And we ask it by the power of the blood you already share, shed on our behalf. Because you already decided before the foundation of the world that we were your beloved, that you loved us, that you would rather stretch out your arms on a tree than die without us. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for pursuing us, for loving us first. Help us to trust you. Amen. And amen.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Oh, I have tears. That was beautiful. Thank you.

[Lisa Harper]

Thank you for having me.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Oh, I'm so blessed by you and so blessed by by this conversation. And I know that the spirit of God was in this room. I felt him. And I pray that you guys just were encouraged by truth, encouraged by Lisa's testimony. And please let us know how this encouraged you and convicted you. And know that you are prayed for like she just prayed for you. And so as always, guys, be sure to stay you and stay true. We love you. What do you think makes the perfect snack?

[Lisa Harper]

Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Could you be more specific?

[Lisa Harper]

When it's cravinient. Okay. Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, PM or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. pM.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

[Lisa Harper]

Well yeah, we're talking about what I.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Crave, which is any anything from am pm.

[Lisa Harper]

What more could you want? Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience. AM pm Too much. Good stuff.

[T-Mobile Ad]

Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn Ads, go to Libsyn ads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.