Ayahuasca & Alzheimer’s (w/ Elna Baker)

Summary

Staying Alive with Jon Gabrus & Adam Pally

Episode: Ayahuasca & Alzheimer’s (w/ Elna Baker)

Date: December 11, 2025 | Podcast Network: SmartLess Media

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Episode Overview

In this engaging, comedic, and deeply honest episode, Jon Gabrus and Adam Pally welcome author and storyteller Elna Baker for a candid conversation that weaves together the topics of psychedelics, trauma, personal healing, and wellness. While ostensibly themed around both ayahuasca and Alzheimer’s, the episode is less a medical deep-dive and more a raw, often hilarious journey through Elna’s transformation—from Mormonism and self-critique to self-discovery via psychedelics and therapy. The hosts and Elna open up about their health routines, struggles with food and body image, and the evolving role of drugs in wellness, revealing both the absurdities and breakthroughs of trying to “stay alive.”

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Main Discussion Themes

• Elna’s departure from Mormonism & self-discovery
• Psychedelic therapies and their healing potential
• Reconstructive surgery & body image
• EMDR and trauma processing
• The difference between psychedelic substances: Ayahuasca, DMT, MDMA, Ketamine, Mushrooms
• Building new paths to wellness: hot yoga, self-help, therapy

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Key Segments and Insights

1. Opening Banter, Eating and Hangovers (00:57–05:00)

• Gabrus and Pally joke about hangovers, eating habits, and the calamity of double Postmates dinners.
• They share how food choices and sleep relate to their sense of wellbeing.

“She put the chicken parm down. It’s like a doormat! Patrick, if we ate two of these, I’d have heartburn for a month.” — Jon Gabrus (01:36)

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2. Introducing Elna Baker: From Mormon to Psychedelics (05:32–08:55)

• Hosts reveal that Elna was formerly Mormon and left at 28 to pursue a more authentic (and sexual) life.
• Discusses the oppressive stance of her former church regarding LGBTQ issues and how that played into her exit.

“I left initially to have sex. That was why…I was horny. That’s why I left.” — Elna Baker (07:31)

• Elna and the hosts hilariously recall how adolescent pursuits (sex, comedy) shaped their choices.

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3. Falling Down the Wellness ‘Rabbit Hole’ (09:50–14:38)

• Elna recounts reading “150 to 200 self help books” and how wellness routines became a new obsession, self-soothing tool, and sometimes avoidance technique.
• She’s now rooted in daily hot yoga, empowered by trauma research (Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk).

“Self help became a way to avoid my thoughts…as long as I had a self help book on, I was like, I’m doing something with my life.” — Elna Baker (10:10)

• The hosts riff on overcrowded yoga studios and the joy (and awkwardness) of sweating it out among strangers.

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4. Trauma, Weight Loss, and EMDR (14:08–22:20)

• Elna discusses dramatic weight loss, reconstructive surgeries, and the unanticipated problem of carrying emotional—and literal—scars.
• Introduces EMDR (trauma therapy using bilateral stimulation), which unearths previously unknown childhood trauma and provides an avenue for healing.

“No one has hurt me more than me…I have this sort of war I’ve been in against myself.” — Elna Baker (44:13)

• The hosts joke about therapy, cults, and the overabundance (and contradiction) of wellness advice.

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5. Psychedelic Journeys: Frog Poison, Ayahuasca, DMT (22:07–47:40)

• Elna describes experimenting with many psychedelics to “unlock trauma”—including frog poison “Kambo” (burned into the skin), and the process of purging (vomiting toxins) afterwards.

“They burn…the only way to ingest the poison is to burn it into your flesh.” — Elna Baker (22:54)

• On ayahuasca: She explains the experiences (usually in the form of chocolate rather than tea) and the variety of “trips”—sometimes profound, sometimes uneventful.
• The metaphor of “fresh snow” over neural pathways is used to explain how psychedelics temporarily allow new behavioral patterns.

“You take these psychedelics and what happens is like a fresh sheet of snow has fallen over the whole thing…and that lasts for about six weeks.” — Elna Baker (45:01)

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6. Danger of Overdoing, and Integration (40:00–49:20)

• Elna warns about the dangers of doing psychedelics too frequently; becoming “unfunny” and “abstract.”
• Stresses importance of integration—that is, making intentional life changes in the weeks following trips, rather than seeking constant “hits” of transformation.
• Describes her most recent, powerful DMT trip (non-visual, highly emotional), which felt like a physical exorcism of shame and cultural “poison.”

“Only the body. Never the mind, only the body. And my body just like…I just started like writhing and then I like started making myself vomit. And then I let out this like insane…most beautiful sound…and this black trail of soot flew out of my mouth.” — Elna Baker (54:03)

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7. Therapy, Safety, Picking Substances (56:22–59:22)

• MDMA and ketamine are discussed as useful, accessible starting points for therapeutic psychedelic journeys.
• Elna’s personal ranking for therapeutic help: DMT, then MDMA.
• Pally and Gabrus reflect on how Elna’s attitude reframes the “escape” narrative around drugs—as instead being an “entry” into real healing.

“You’re not using the chemicals as an escape…you’re using it as an entry. And I feel like that’s really brave.” — Adam Pally (59:04)

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8. Comic Relief: “The Sandwich Story” and Personal Anecdotes (60:25–65:16)

• Gabrus closes with a classic story about drunkenly making and then wearing a Dagwood sandwich, aided by Elna for This American Life.
• The story highlights generational differences, family quirks, and body-based shame—winding the episode back to its themes of food, family, and learning to treat oneself kinder (and funnier).

“On my chest, spackled to me with mayo and mustard, is a fucking enormous like Dagwood sandwich with one bite taken out of it.” — Jon Gabrus (63:01)

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Notable Quotes

• “I think I left initially to have sex. That was why…I was horny. That’s why I left.” — Elna Baker (07:31)
• "Self help became a way to avoid my thoughts…as long as I had a self help book on, I was like, I’m doing something with my life.” — Elna Baker (10:10)
• “No one has hurt me more than me…I have this sort of war I’ve been in against myself.” — Elna Baker (44:13)
• “You take these psychedelics and what happens is like a fresh sheet of snow has fallen over the whole thing…and that lasts for about six weeks.” — Elna Baker (45:01)
• “Only the body. Never the mind, only the body.” — Elna Baker, DMT revelation (54:03)
• “You’re not using the chemicals as an escape…you’re using it as an entry. And I feel like that’s really brave.” — Adam Pally (59:04)

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Memorable & Impactful Moments

• Heartfelt Vulnerability: Elna’s honest self-assessment of chasing happiness through weight loss, surgery, and self-help books, only to realize trauma was at the root.
• Psychedelic Storytelling: Detailed, visceral accounts of both frog poison and ayahuasca journeys, blending humor and awe.
• Comic Chemistry: Hosts’ irreverent asides on cults, cafes, and bodily mishaps keep the tone mischievous and accessible.
• Therapy Reframed: Elna’s use of metaphors (“fresh snow”; “the war ends now”) brings home the deep healing possible with psychedelics—when combined with intention and integration.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Leaving Mormonism & Identity: 06:05 – 08:55
• Self-Help Book Frenzy & Yoga: 09:50 – 11:25
• Weight Loss, Surgeries, & Trauma: 14:08 – 15:14
• Experiencing EMDR: 15:14 – 22:20
• Frog Poison / Kambo: 22:29 – 26:39
• Ayahuasca Experiences: 32:37 – 47:09
• DMT Trip & Exorcism-like Release: 52:27 – 54:34
• MDMA/Ketamine & Best Psychedelics for Therapy: 56:22 – 58:51
• The Iconic Sandwich Story: 60:25 – 64:17

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Conclusion

This episode is a standout for its honesty, humor, and fearless discussion of unconventional healing. Elna Baker’s journey is as inspirational as it is relatable—framed by the comedic and searching perspectives of Gabrus and Pally. Listeners leave with a fresh understanding of psychedelic therapy’s potential, the limits of self-help, and the ongoing quest to treat oneself with more curiosity and kindness.

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No medical advice is dispensed—always consult a physician before exploring psychedelics or intensive wellness practices. For those seeking more, Elna’s upcoming book promises an even deeper dive into these themes.

Transcript

[Host 1]

Smart.

[Elna Baker]

Let us med.

[Host 2]

But I want to talk about.

[Host 3]

Yeah, we're only, like, the tip of the iceberg, but I did talk about burning frog.

[Host 2]

Yeah, all the burning frog stuff is amazing. And all your drug use, obviously. But I want to talk about Alzheimer's as well, because, well, you do a lot of work, and you've studied it, you know, and, like, right.

[Host 3]

I'm looking at this, and I don't find.

[Elna Baker]

I don't see that the next guest.

[Host 2]

Does it. Actually, I have Alzheimer's, and I was wondering if this frog will help.

[Host 3]

That's the problem is because you're Jewish, you read right to left.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I know. Everything's Hebrew to me.

How you doing?

[Host 3]

I'm a little hungover today.

[Host 2]

Really? Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's good.

[Host 3]

It feels good. I had some. Some beers and some red wine and then a shot of Jager. Not a combo. Yeah, not a combo you want to have.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So your stomach. It's probably more stomach than head at this point.

[Host 3]

Yes. Yeah. Because I also had wings, mozzarella sticks, Caesar salad, and a chicken parm last night. Last night, me and my cousin ordered two chicken parms and said to the waitress, is that crazy? And she went, yeah, still did it. I know. And then we backed off. She convinced us, and she's like, the mozzarella sticks and the chicken parm, like, all similar flavor profiles.

[Host 2]

You guys are gonna be just, like, hawking loogies. Yeah.

[Host 3]

She put the chicken parm down when we got it. It's like a doormat. Like, Patrick, if we ate two of these, I'd have heartburn for a month.

[Host 2]

Oh, man. That sounds good, though. I, I. I had the op the opposite night. It was, like, came back from work at, like, 7:30, had missed dinner, which is tough because they had ordered it, and it was in the fridge, and they ordered me some, but it's like, I didn't want that. But I can't order again.

[Host 3]

A double Postmates dinner.

[Host 2]

Crossing the code. It's like. So I. I, like, shoved down the cold. It was good. It was rotisserie chicken, but it was like I wanted it hot. And then I just, like, slowly walked upstairs, thinking I would get to bed, and got stopped at the youngest kid's room who was having a nightmare. And I just sleeping on the floor.

[Host 3]

Oh, hell yeah.

[Host 2]

In my clothes.

[Host 3]

Oof. So not a stomach hangover, but a lower back and lower back and neck hangover.

[Host 2]

But I feel pretty good.

[Host 3]

Back, pussy and crack hurting.

[Host 2]

Yes. But honestly, I feel pretty good because no Alcohol.

[Host 3]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And seven hours of sleep. Yeah.

[Host 3]

And rotisserie chicken. Nice little healthy dinner.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So I feel like I woke up kind of feeling okay, but. But also like, why can't I move my arm?

Who's our guest?

[Host 3]

We had Elna Baker. You think she's an Alzheimer's expert, but we also know her from this American life.

[Host 2]

No, I know we know her from this American life, but. But I also believe that somewhere in the information I was given. We're talking to an Alzheimer's guest.

[Host 3]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 2]

And. And I.

[Host 3]

Our wires.

[Host 2]

Got my wire. I only have one.

[Host 3]

I only have one wire. And it's sparking and it's in a puddle. Don't get anywhere near.

[Host 2]

To touch it. You got to put your hand in a body of water.

Yeah, but I.

[Host 3]

You know, my dad saw a dude.

Accidentally ungrounded because my dad was a Iatsi lighting tech, so it was a lot of electricity stuff. He saw a dude touch something that started electrocuting him, and my dad had to run and check him off of it because he was stuck to like the thing that was shocking him. And my dad sprinted over and like.

[Host 2]

Shoulder charged his life.

[Host 3]

Saved his life. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Oh my God. And did. Do you have to shoulder charge? Cuz you can't grab.

[Host 3]

Yeah, my D. Was worried about grabbing him.

[Ad Read Voice]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Because if he grabs him, then he'll start.

[Host 3]

I guess so, or something. I don't know.

[Host 2]

And then it's an Abbot and Costello bit. Yeah.

[Host 3]

It's like, hold on one more until we all join.

[Host 2]

And then all of a sudden everyone has cable.

[Host 3]

The last guy touches a dead guy on the ground, he comes back to life.

[Host 2]

The Rockefeller Center Christmas tree slowly just rises.

[Host 3]

Where was that?

[Host 2]

We keep it underground.

[Host 3]

Stakes off into the sky. Elon Musk is on it. I love Christmas.

[Host 2]

Isn't that funny?

[Host 3]

Someone takes a shot at him, he holds up his son, and his son gets pink mist in.

El baker.

[Host 2]

Yeah, el baker. Let's just get that. Ellen the baker, everybody.

[Elna Baker]

Although I do know something about Alzheimer's that the early studies show that if you do a sauna once a week, you can prevent Alzheimer's.

[Host 3]

I bought this guy infrared talk.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I do it all the time.

[Host 3]

Yeah, I'm a sauna freak.

[Host 2]

I'm in a sauna four to six days a week.

[Host 3]

Yeah, I'm like three to four right now, but I'm usually at like six or seven.

[Host 2]

The first thing we, we ask everybody and, and, and you can ask us back and we'll tell you. It's like, are you Doing anything. Are you doing anything to keep you alive? Like when? Like, in your daily routine, in your year, when you assess your year or your decade, whatever. What are you doing to keep yourself alive?

[Elna Baker]

Great. Are you asking it now?

[Host 2]

No, I'm just prep. I'm saying there will be time.

[Host 3]

Elna, are you doing anything to stay alive?

[Host 2]

See?

[Host 3]

And that's all in. Leave out.

[Host 2]

Aren't you glad I gave you the warning that that question was coming?

[Elna Baker]

We don't do any intros. Okay, here's the question. I do a lot of things. I am. I have. I did that thing where basically, like you, I did psychedelics, and then I was like, oh, this is the answer. Like, I'd never done drugs.

[Ad Read Voice 2]

Where.

[Host 2]

Where was this psychedelic experience? And how old are you?

[Elna Baker]

The first time I did psychedelics, I think I would have been, like, 39.

[Host 2]

Wow, that's late.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah. Oh, no, because I was Mormon.

[Host 2]

Right?

[Elna Baker]

Like, I. I didn't drink coffee.

[Host 3]

Yeah. Oh, man.

[Elna Baker]

So I left Mormonism when I was.

[Host 2]

How old were you?

[Elna Baker]

28. Yeah, we knew each other when I was Mormon.

[Host 3]

Yes.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

Wow.

[Host 2]

I didn't even know you were Mormon.

[Elna Baker]

I was Mormon.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

I gotta say, now, while we're on this subject, Elna got me one of my coolest credits to date, which is I recorded a potential story for this American Life. They ended up not going with it, but I got a special thanks at the end of the episode.

[Host 2]

Cool.

[Host 3]

From Ira Glass. And that was.

[Elna Baker]

Love that story.

[Host 3]

Oh, thank you.

[Elna Baker]

You have to tell them that story at the end of this. Will you tell them that story?

[Host 3]

Yes. Adam knows it well, but I will.

[Elna Baker]

It's one of my favorite. The sandwich story. I was, like, obsessed with that story.

[Host 2]

I know that story.

[Host 3]

And I got so many texts from all my hipster friends that were like, why did you get a special thanks at the end of this American Life? And I was like, this is worth it, right?

[Ad Read Voice 2]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So awesome.

[Host 3]

I got paid.

[Host 2]

Wow. I didn't know that you were Mormon when we knew you.

[Elna Baker]

When we first became friends. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Wow, that's so crazy. And so you leave the Mormon Church at 28 and what was, like, the straw that broke the camels back there?

[Elna Baker]

I mean, it's. It's like, so. There's so many things at once. I mean, I think, like, initially, like.

I hadn't done anything really, but, like, kiss. And like, by 28, you're just sort of like, oh, come on. Like, I really. Like, this is really difficult.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Elna Baker]

I think I left initially to have sex. Like, that was why What? What? I. What? I was horny. That's why I left.

[Host 3]

Yeah. I mean, some of my biggest steps in life were because, I mean, that's.

[Host 2]

Pretty much everything I've ever done.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

That's how I got into comedy.

[Host 2]

It was 100.

[Host 3]

I can make the hot girl laugh in seventh grade.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 3]

It was like SNL every week.

[Host 2]

Yeah. It was like, oh, this is a way to deflect negative attention.

[Host 3]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And turn it around.

[Host 3]

Like, great way to flirt with teachers.

[Host 2]

Exactly.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

100. Yeah. This makes me feel older. Yeah.

[Host 3]

This gets my parents to laugh at me rather than yell at me.

[Host 2]

Yell at me.

[Host 3]

Hell yeah.

[Host 2]

That's.

[Elna Baker]

So I left for that reason. And then there was, at the same time, Prop 8 and like, the way they were treating gay so that like.

[Host 2]

All that's like, basically like woke. I don't want to use it as a negative. Like, you know, like, you're like awoken to the way that the church sometimes treats other people.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah. I mean, I think, like, I always, like most of my friends were gay and I always, I was doing some mental gymnastics around it. And then the church was like, you know, the bishop got on the pulpit and was like, we need you to do everything in your power to stop gay marriage. And I was like, what? No, that's like, they're not supposed to do that.

[Host 2]

Like, why?

[Elna Baker]

I was like, and I want to have sex.

[Host 3]

Yeah.

[Elna Baker]

So it was like the combo of those two.

[Host 3]

Wow.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And so then you.

[Host 3]

That's why I left Dungeons and Dragons when I was 13.

[Host 2]

Really is.

[Host 3]

So I could have sexy war.

[Host 2]

It wasn't because of the way they treated gay people.

[Host 3]

Gay people run that shit is the.

[Host 2]

Way they treated me.

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[Elna Baker]

I fell down the health and wellness rabbit hole. I think probably eight years ago.

[Host 1]

Hell yeah.

[Elna Baker]

I've read probably 150 to 200 self help books.

[Host 2]

Oh my God.

[Host 3]

Whoa.

[Elna Baker]

Wow. I am.

[Host 3]

She's come more prepared than other contradictions.

[Host 2]

Do they ever contradict each other?

[Elna Baker]

They do. They do sometimes contradict each other.

[Host 2]

And how do you. How do you reconcile that?

[Elna Baker]

I mean, the Thing is that I think I got so into it, self help became a way to avoid my thoughts. So I would be like walking down the city and as long as I had a self help book on, I was like, I'm doing something with my life.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Elna Baker]

You know, this is, it's not scary.

[Host 2]

That's how I chew weed.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah, it's my weed. So I. Every day I do yoga and then I do hot yoga.

[Host 2]

Where?

[Elna Baker]

In Hudson? I live in Hudson now.

[Host 3]

Every day hot yoga.

[Elna Baker]

Every day hot yoga.

[Host 3]

Every day I'm hot yoga.

[Host 2]

Sounds good. I recently my sister in law took me to hot yoga and it's. I think, I don't know which one it is but I'm trying to find one in the city because we were on vacation and I loved it. And I used to do Bikram before all the scandals.

[Host 3]

I joined right after the scandal.

I was like, wow, you can be chicks doing this.

[Host 2]

You saw the documentary and you're like, I should sign up. Yeah.

[Host 3]

You know, buy low.

[Host 2]

I loved Bikram. I was like super into it. My dad was really into it, even like teaching classes. And then I just fell out when it was like, not good to go there anymore. But hot yoga is so good.

[Host 3]

Yeah. I've done it a few times in LA and it feels, there's always a moment though in the, the teacher's like. And continue this flow. Or if you know, you're not feeling it, child's pose. I'm like, oh yeah. Just like head on the mat.

[Host 2]

Like I beg for the permission. Like you'll be in some, you'll be in some pose that everyone else is having an easy time with and you're like feeling the tension that you're going to die, you know, and then they're like, if you're having a hard time, just lay down. You're like, right now.

[Host 3]

And I'm like double the size of everyone. So when they're like, put your arms out. I just like touch two women's hands with my absolute sweaty palms and I.

[Host 2]

Can feel them like nothing worse than a full. You should be able to walk out of a yoga class if there's too many people after you've paid.

[Host 3]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

She'd be like, no, there's just too many people. I'll come back.

[Host 3]

What brought you to hot yoga specifically? Did you try other things and land on that or something?

[Elna Baker]

Did you know Bessel van der Kolk's work?

[Host 3]

Yeah, of course. And Google and Bethel.

[Host 2]

Vandelkirk Van der Kolk.

[Host 3]

No.

[Elna Baker]

He wrote the Body Keeps the score.

[Host 3]

Oh, yes, I'm familiar with that type.

[Host 2]

And the theory of that is that the body holds onto trauma.

[Elna Baker]

Yes. Yeah. The mind and the body. But he has these, like, six things you can do if you've had. If you have trauma that can heal trauma. And one of them was yoga. One of them was theater.

[Host 3]

Really? Yeah, really. Okay, well, I guess I can tell you the truth. I can tell you it does not work. 20 years of theater here, that does.

[Host 2]

Not work at the lowest or highest level. It does not do shit.

[Host 3]

Spotty has got a high score. Yeah, I played on Game over, man.

[Host 2]

I played on every size stage on the planet. And I'm fucked up. It's not.

[Elna Baker]

Wait, so why are you guys trying to heal each other?

[Host 2]

We're not trying to heal each other.

[Host 3]

We're just like, yes, we are.

[Host 2]

Well, I would never take that responsibility.

[Host 3]

No, I would not want that responsibility.

[Host 2]

I would never want to be burned. Like, if something happens to him now, I'm responsible. That not a fair.

[Host 3]

That's too highly likely of a thing. You not need to talk to your dad on the phone and be like, how could you let him do?

[Host 2]

Yeah, I love with me, it's like, how could you let him do that?

[Host 3]

Well, that's what your dad would say.

[Host 2]

But no, no, we. We. We used to have a travel show on hbo.

[Elna Baker]

Oh, yeah, I know that.

[Host 2]

And it was about consumption, essentially. And so now that television doesn't exist and we're doing like, essentially a radio show, we thought maybe we should, like, try to get healthy on the radio.

[Host 3]

Oh, interesting. This was court mandated for me. My doctor is like, I got you a development field. Maybe pay attention during these interviews.

[Host 2]

I actually have to do this podcast every day or I'll go back to prison.

[Elna Baker]

I basically have been disassociated from my own body most of my life.

[Host 2]

Wow. How did you come to that?

[Elna Baker]

I didn't understand why. I just knew. And like, I. So I used to be fat. I was 120 pounds heavier. And I then lost a ton of weight. And I was like, oh, if I lose weight, it'll fix everything. Then I'll be comfortable with myself. I feel good about myself. I like my body. Then I had all this extra skin once I lost all that weight. Which they don't sort of tell you in those before and after ads.

[Host 3]

Yeah, that's why I refuse to lose weight. Yes. I don't wanna deal with the extra skin. I'd rather it be filled to the brim with adipose tissue.

[Elna Baker]

So then I Got six reconstructive surgeries to take away all of that skin. Whoa. And then I was like, okay, now. Now I'll be, like, okay with myself and okay in my body. And then it turns out the reason that I was disassociated from my body is in early childhood trauma I wasn't aware of. And so then I. Well, I found that out through emdr. I don't know. Do you guys know emdr?

[Host 2]

Is that the. Do they sing Should I Stay or Should I Go?

[Elna Baker]

That's emdr. That's emdr. Yeah. Okay. You know. Okay.

[Host 3]

We have them on our next episode.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Okay, great.

[Host 2]

They're coming in.

[Host 3]

They should go.

[Host 2]

They're coming in to. Talk about floating.

[Host 3]

Is that, like, the, like, light therapy thing?

[Elna Baker]

It's either light or sound. I mean, the whole idea is you're moving, so while you speak, you're. You go from the left to the right side of the brain. Either a dot moves across the screen, or you hear sounds in either ear.

And you. Whatever. It's sort of weirdly like improv. It's like, first thought, best thought. Uh, and so for me, I did it for all my known trauma. Right. So I was like, oh, you know, my mom was hard on me about my weight. I. I went to understand, like, why do I have these issues with food? Like, I've never, like. I either. Like, I think I thought, okay, if I lose weight, then I'll be. I won't have issues with food. But then I just went to the other side of the spectrum, being somebody who had, like, an eating disorder. Right, right. So. So.

[Host 2]

Which is often the case.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah. You. I didn't understand that, but, yeah, it's like you. You just sort of morph it.

[Host 3]

You just become obsessed with food in a different way.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

It takes over your life in a different way. I'm very familiar with this.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Elna Baker]

So I was like. I. I initially, I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna get on Ozempic. Like, I.

[Host 3]

Literally. Right where I am now in my. In my journey.

[Elna Baker]

Well, I was like, you know, I. Yes, I'm thin now, but, like, I qualify for the type of person who's always thinking about food. So maybe I'll just, like, make life easy and get on Ozempic. And I got on Ozempic. This was a year ago. Almost exactly a year ago, I got on Ozempic, and it made me so moody.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Elna Baker]

Like, I was either, like, rageful all the time or, like, depressively. Like, I should step in front of the train, maybe I should say. And I was just like, what the fuck is going on? And my boyfriend was like, I hate Ozempic, Elna. Like, I don't like Ozempic, Elna. Like, your entire personality has been taken over. And I was like, man, I wish this worked for me. You know, this would have made it so much easier. And I heard that EMDR is good for people with complex trauma around food. So I went to emdr, and it is like. Like I said, it's like improv. So I was like. Would hear the beeps, and it would remind me of, like, oh, my mom said this one thing. Or at school, like, they bullied me in this way for being fat. So I, like, did.

[Host 3]

What's the situation? Do you have, like, a head thing on headphones like a man?

[Elna Baker]

You have.

[Host 2]

Does it look like Scientology?

[Elna Baker]

It does look like. And I love a cult. I. I'm a. I'm a big fan of cult.

[Host 2]

I don't think you can be fan of. Can you be in more than one cult?

[Host 3]

Trust me.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

Just like when someone switches from being obsessed with food in one way to another.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

You can jump from cult to culture. One who's in CrossFit but was in an insane.

[Host 2]

Can you be in two cults at one time?

[Host 3]

That might be. Yeah. That's like being a Yankee and a Mets fan. It's like, that's bullshit.

[Host 2]

Because it's like.

[Ad Read Voice]

But.

[Host 2]

But. But that.

[Elna Baker]

Because, like, they're all for you.

[Host 2]

I'm upset. You know? Like, I could see myself following Jim Jones in the morning.

[Host 3]

Yeah, that's my favorite AM radio show.

[Host 2]

Jim Jones in the Morning.

[Host 3]

Have your Kool.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Hey, everybody. I'm Jim Jones in the morning. With me, as always, is the Kool Aid man. Oh, yeah.

Now, if everybody could put on those sneakers that I've sent them.

[Host 3]

Oh, no.

Sorry. You were talking about your trauma.

[Host 2]

Beep, beep. Jim Jones in the Morning.

[Host 3]

We're back with Elna Baker. She's talking her trauma.

[Host 2]

She's talking to her childhood trauma. What do you think about that Kool Aid Man?

[Host 3]

So bad.

[Host 2]

Go ahead.

[Host 3]

So your headphones on?

[Elna Baker]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

Like goggles or a mask or like a vision probe?

[Elna Baker]

No, just headphones. And then you. The therapist doesn't really do anything. They just, like, sit there.

[Host 2]

That sounds right for therapists.

[Elna Baker]

And then you hear the beats, and you say the thought. And you hear the beats, and you say the thought. And then you hear the beats, and you say the thought, and it. And it really is like improv. It's just sort of like first thought, best thought. And so I did that for nine months and. And then around.

The ninth month was when, like, what actually happened to you?

[Host 3]

So stuff that you like, you unearth some stuff.

[Elna Baker]

Stuff I had no memory of. Yeah.

[Host 3]

Do you. I understand.

[Host 2]

We're not.

[Host 3]

No one here is an EDMR expert.

[Elna Baker]

Emdr. Exactly.

[Host 3]

I'm sorry. I'm talking about electric dance music.

[Host 2]

Oh, I am an expert.

[Host 3]

Ladies and gentlemen, Sandstorm.

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[Elna Baker]

So I I have tried to everything like oh yeah ketamine. I so I've done. I've done every psychedelic like I have really welcome welcome.

[Host 3]

You're on the right show, man.

[Host 2]

Hate to tell you, you're not the coolest kid in the room here, all right?

[Host 3]

I mean, you were doing it to unlock drama. I was doing it to cause trauma.

[Elna Baker]

Did you ever do. The weirdest one I did was frog poison.

[Host 2]

No, no, no, no, no, no. But, Gabriel, you are the coolest person. No, maybe you are the coolest person. Gabri said a snake on a dare.

[Host 3]

Yeah, but that didn'. Like tripping. I just barfed. Wait, so you. You got. You tripped on poison frogs?

[Elna Baker]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

No, you do.

[Elna Baker]

Well, you do. Actually, I can show you like you can. So you see these dots on me?

[Host 3]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Elna Baker]

Okay, so you. They burn. The only way to ingest the poison is to burn it into your flesh. So they.

Burn.

[Host 3]

We gotta try this.

[Elna Baker]

You gotta try this. So the whole idea.

[Host 2]

And where do you do this in.

[Elna Baker]

Like, I did this in Beechwood Canyon. No, I did this in the jungle in Mexico.

[Host 3]

We gotta move our other guests. We have four more hours.

[Host 2]

We didn't even talk about that. Elma used to. Elma used to be Mormon.

[Host 3]

I know this. Well, cult to cult.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah, Cult to cult to cult. No. So you. So basically, the whole premise is there's this frog that lives in the jungle and it has no natural predators. And so it has, like, the most badass energy and no fear and no victim energy because, like, nothing's ever killed.

[Host 2]

What's it called again?

[Elna Baker]

Combo is the name of the drug, but it's. I don't know the name of the actual frog.

[Host 2]

What's the name of the frog?

[Elna Baker]

I don't know the name of the frog.

[Host 3]

Rick. Yeah.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah, Rick.

[Host 3]

Hey, Rick. We need more of your. We need to wipe some slime off your back and inject it into a woman from Los Angeles.

[Host 2]

Rick bit. Rick bit.

Rick bit.

[Host 3]

We're so sorry. We are going to continue to laugh through your struggle of trauma recovery.

[Host 2]

Yes, continue.

[Host 3]

We're not good at this job.

You go down there. Is there a group of people who are, like, coming to the jungle to heal?

[Elna Baker]

There are just two of us. We met with this woman. And so they burn. So the thing is, like, you.

[Host 2]

Yeah. What's the thing about burning it?

[Elna Baker]

Thing is, as soon as they do it, like, if you don't flush the poison out of your body, you die.

[Host 2]

So what do you use? The puke?

[Elna Baker]

You have to. They have, like, liters of water next to you, and you just have to down them as quickly as possible and vomit. And then after the vomiting, you really don't get, like, Like a typical, like ayahuasca high. Like, the high is almost like a. It's almost like you like click into like a different dimensional feeling of the same place you're in. It's very strange. Yeah.

[Host 3]

And I don't even. I don't hate puking, so I'm in.

[Host 2]

Yeah. But I don't know if water would do it for me. Like, I would need. You know what I mean? Like I would need.

[Host 3]

Are you doing. Are you doing the pulling?

[Elna Baker]

Yeah. You're pulling the trigger?

[Host 2]

Yeah, I hate pulling the trigger.

[Host 3]

A boot and rally.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

I haven't done that since I was my 20s.

[Host 2]

Oh, God.

[Host 3]

Just like at the. Like at the beach in Montauk.

[Host 2]

Just being like, oh, yeah, I'm ready. I just once did it under a bar that I was standing.

[Host 3]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And kept standing there.

[Host 3]

Oh, no.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Elna Baker]

Why did you do it? Why?

[Host 2]

I had. No. Why? I was writing a book.

It was just, you know, social experiment, processing drama. I don't know. Because I had taken 15 Jaeger shots in two minutes.

[Host 3]

So you feel like you're in a. Watch this power segue back. So you feel like you're in another dimension, like in that presence.

[Elna Baker]

In that presence. Yeah. You sort of like you click into this. So there other almost like energetic field. It's so strange.

[Host 2]

It's so hard to describe, but essentially it's like a low frequency buzz, I guess.

[Elna Baker]

And then they say this is the part that they're like. Cause it's supposed to heal illnesses and different parts of your body where you might have toxins you might not know about will swell. And so they're like, pay attention to, like if a. You know, if your arm suddenly just swells up double size, like, yes, I will pay attention.

[Host 2]

Oh, my God. God. I didn't even notice what was.

[Host 3]

Yes, it's happening to my dick.

[Host 2]

Yeah, it's happening to one of my balls.

[Host 3]

My one ball is huge now.

[Elna Baker]

So they were like, pay attention to where you. So I'm vomiting over this bucket and I can see my reflection in the like puke water. And the center of my forehead has like swollen just like a. Like a golf ball right in the center of my forehead.

[Host 2]

So you're like, I have brain cancer.

[Elna Baker]

Well, that's where I get Botox. And I was like, oh, not that poison.

[Host 3]

Oh, no, that's the poison that's coming out.

[Host 2]

Well, that's the easiest poison to see. You know, that's like.

[Elna Baker]

That cost me $500, frog.

[Host 2]

All of a sudden, everyone on the trip is walking around with giant veneers that are like.

[Host 3]

Like fucking Cronenberg. Like, spinners.

[Host 2]

Somebody's body's shot up and all that's left are their ankles.

[Host 3]

Stuff like meathead Guidos. Ken, blow up.

Did you come out of the gate hard at 28?

[Elna Baker]

I didn't, no. No, no, Because I was so afraid. In fact, I took. At 27. I took a year rum spring. I, like, copied the Amish. And I was like, okay, for one year, I'm gonna try everything, and then I'm sure it'll make me want to be Mormon, and I'll just know what's on the other side. And so I was like, I'm allowed to do whatever I want. And I went to a bar, and I was like. Went to, like. You don't know you're brainwashed if you've always followed the rules, right? So I, like, went. I ordered, and I went to drink it, and I couldn't. By the time my hand touched the drink, it was like, you know, I was, like, saying all the words the prophet had said, and I was like, I can't do this. So I didn't do anything for nine months.

[Host 3]

Whoa.

[Elna Baker]

In the beginning.

[Host 2]

On your rum spring.

[Elna Baker]

On my rum spring, yeah. And then, you know, eventually I touched a dick that was like, you know, that was the big.

[Host 3]

Yeah, that one did a lot for me, too.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

First time I touched a dick, I was like, no, I am straight.

I was jerking this guy off, and I looked at him, and I'm like, I guess I am straight.

[Host 2]

You're like, sorry, dude.

[Host 3]

You can finish. Yeah, I got you.

[Host 2]

And then. And then after, could you give me the mail to bring into my parents?

And then. And then. How does psychedelics get?

[Elna Baker]

So then I. So basically, I. It's funny. I. I did, actually, at 29, I had that thing you're describing where I was like. So I. I lost my virginity at 28. Then I was, like, dated that guy for a year. And then I was single, and I, like. I slept with a comedian. I, like, went home with a comedian.

[Host 3]

I apologize on my.

[Host 2]

Never do that.

[Elna Baker]

And then I was like, oh, you can just sleep with people. And then I, like, couldn't leave the house without sleeping with somebody. I was just sort of like, this is the easiest thing in the world. Like, you just, like, go outside. So I think I slept with, like, 13 people in, like, four weeks or something. I was just like, what am I. What's. And so then I was like, this is wrong. I. I can't. You know, I have To.

[Host 3]

There might be a middle ground here.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Were you happy? Was it fun?

[Elna Baker]

You know, actually, I don't think it was, because I think I was, like, still in the mindset of Mormonism, where I was, like, trying to prove, like, depression, you know?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 3]

Yeah.

[Elna Baker]

And, like, so I just also. I think I just wasn't sleeping that off, you know, it wasn't getting enough sleep, so it was just not enjoyable.

[Host 3]

24 nights, you're. You're not getting enough sleep.

[Elna Baker]

Exact. Exactly. Exactly. So I. So then I was like, no, more like, you gotta put this whore to bed. Like, lock her up.

[Host 3]

I'll stick to just Coca Cola. Yeah.

[Elna Baker]

So I. The next guy, I was like, I'm not sleeping with somebody until I really know them. And then I slept with the next guy, and I was like, oh. And so I married him. I was just like, that's the way. That's how we stop this woman. She's out of control. We just. So I was with that person for seven years, and then. But not. Not happy. It really wasn't happy. And then when that marriage ended, I was 38, and I.

@ the time, you know, I did a. So I worked at this American life for 12 years, and, like, a big part of my job was like, you know, interviewing people, finding stories. Like. And I interviewed this woman, and she had sclerma, which is like an autoimmune disorder, where she was basically completely bedridden and had no quality of life and was looking into assisted suicide because she couldn't. You know, she had a woman who. An attendant who would, like, change the bedpan once a day. And her friend, who's a comedian who you guys know, her friend was like, why don't you do ayahuasca? And she was like, I don't do drugs. They could kill you. And he's like, you're about to kill yourself. Like, just try it. Right? So she did ayahuasca, and on ayahuasca was told, you can walk. And she hadn't walked in years. And she stood up and she walked across the room. And then the next morning, bedridden, but she had, like, a touchstone. And so she started doing psychedelic therapy and over the next few years, regain the ability to walk by learning all of her trauma, right? So she tells me this story, and I was like, that's like the stuff of miracles, you know? Like, that's like, what, the Bible, Jesus, the lame shall walk, right? So I was like, you're making me want to do drugs. And she's like, well, why don't you? And I was like, well, I would never want to fuck with my mind. Like, I love my mind. I want. I wouldn't do anything to harm it. And she was like, okay, trust that. But someday you may find that your mind is no longer serving you. And when you find that, you'll know what to do. And so, like, basically, like a year out of my marriage, I got into a terribly abusive relationship. And I did not understand, like, why can't I leave? Why can't I leave? Why can't I leave? And I remembered this conversation from years earlier. And so I did.

[Host 2]

Ayahuasca. Where did you do the.

[Elna Baker]

Ayahuasca? I did it in.

[Host 2]

La. And actually that was Beechwood.

[Elna Baker]

Canyon. Yeah, it went to Beechwood Canyon.

[Host 3]

Yeah.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah. The people who got me to do it, this is. They were from How I Met yout Mother. Westworld.

Was two of the actors from Westworld. And I remember them, like, sitting me down at a.

[Host 2]

Bar. Two of the bigger actors from.

[Elna Baker]

Westworld. I won't say who the actor.

[Host 2]

Is. Wait a minute. Was it James.

[Elna Baker]

Marston?

[Host 2]

No. Okay. Cause if it was, I'm gonna text him right.

[Elna Baker]

Now. But I remember, like, sitting down at a bar.

[Host 2]

With. I'm texting him. Did you do Ayahuasca with Elna Baker? She's a specialist in Alzheimer's. He'll get back to.

[Host 3]

Me.

He's on set for jury duty, too. He's like, oh, I got a text from. Do not.

[Host 2]

Answer.

I got a text from. Owes me.

[Host 3]

60K.

Guy from Sonic Movie. That's me. I'm in the Sonic.

[Host 2]

Movie. Who could be. Oh, God. The Jewish.

[Host 3]

One. Not the voice Jewish one. The live.

[Host 2]

Action. Yeah. I don't have to deal with that one.

So. All right, so it's. You and Thandie Newton are.

Just like, first of all, how do you take.

[Elna Baker]

Ayahuasca? Is it like caps and stems? And so the version I did. So you usually drink it in a tea, and that's what makes you.

[Host 2]

Vomit. The.

[Elna Baker]

Tea. Yeah, a tea. Like, they brew it into a tea.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Okay. So. And then it's, like, seeped in, like hot.

[Elna Baker]

Water. It's. I think it's. I've never done the tea version. I think I've done it, like, four times. But I've always done them. The chocolate version, which is.

[Host 2]

Better. I love a good chocolate drug. Anything Chocolate drug, I'm.

[Ad Read Voice]

Into.

[Host 3]

Yeah. Mushroom chocolates are maybe the best.

[Host 2]

Thing. Best.

[Host 3]

Ever. Combo of two of my favorite.

[Host 2]

Things. I love a mushroom.

[Host 3]

Chocolate. Give me Reese's peanut butter cups with ecstasy in them. And I will fucking never come back. Oh, my.

[Host 2]

God. For sure. There was a time during the Pantheon pandemic where early on where it looked like we were all gonna die. Where there was like a three day stretch where I was like waking up, having a cup of coffee, popping a mushroom chocolate, and having amazing days of just like walking through. You know what I mean? Like, feeling great. I remember my mother in law's like, looking at the news like they're turning cruise ships into morgues. I'm like, what a.

[Host 3]

Bummer.

Well, we better not go on a cruise.

[Host 2]

Any. Yeah, like.

Truly, it's. It's one of those things. Like, it's. And you feel good after. You wonder like, where the negative is. Like, I know abundance over, like overdoing everything in moderation. But it's pretty. It's pretty amazing to open your mind. Like, that's like a.

[Host 3]

Delicately. Well, I want to dive, go into ayahuasca because I'm very interested in doing it myself. But I am a little afraid of like the. Too much of a rewiring of my brain. Like, I'm afraid, like, what if I'm like, like, why the do I do comedy? And I like back at. You know, I'm afraid it'll change in some way like.

[Host 2]

That. That's a. You don't. It's fine. We don't.

[Host 3]

Anymore. Yeah, that's.

[Host 2]

True. We host a wellness.

[Ad Read Voice]

Podcast. We.

[Host 2]

Don'T. There is no comedy. There's no tv, there's no.

[Host 3]

Comedy. Laugh about.

[Host 2]

It. There's nothing to laugh about. Do the.

[Host 3]

Ayahuasca. We're outlawing laughs. No more humor. Tesla.

[Host 2]

Tesla's. Unless you're in a Tesla. We do think it's funny. That Tesla's.

[Host 3]

Fart.

That's funny. So what stopped your trepidation towards ayahuasca? What made you go.

[Elna Baker]

Like. I think it was. I was willing to do anything.

[Host 2]

To get out of that.

[Elna Baker]

Relationship. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I will wipe my.

[Host 2]

Brain.

[Elna Baker]

Right? Because I don't trust my brain.

[Host 2]

Anymore. So you take the chocolate you're in. What kind of house are we looking.

[Elna Baker]

At? It was so.

[Host 2]

Weird. Is it.

[Elna Baker]

Nice? No, it's like, I just remember the backyard was like, there were all these mannequins in it and they had like, why would.

[Host 2]

You. No, I would see that and it'd be like, I'm not doing.

[Elna Baker]

Ayahuasca. There was like a tree full of lamps. Oh, my.

[Host 2]

God. It sounds like nothing but trouble. Where they're like, Two enormous, fat.

[Host 3]

Baby men I get dying. Yeah, like, where were.

[Host 2]

You?

Is there a.

[Elna Baker]

Shaman? Yeah, there was a shaman. Yeah, like.

[Host 2]

Rick. Shaman Rick. Why are all shamans named.

[Host 3]

Rick? The frog's name is Rick and the shaman's name is.

[Host 2]

Rick. Rick might be the same guy.

[Host 3]

Yeah.

So. And what is this process? You. You eat your chocolate.

[Host 2]

And. And then immediately start shitting or, like.

[Elna Baker]

What? You eat the chocolate. So with the chocolate, you don't vomit or. Most likely so. I've. I've never vomited or shit from ayahuasca. Oh.

[Host 2]

Yeah. See, that's the.

[Host 3]

Thing. Your bumper sticker is.

If you've never shit from Ayahuasca, Elnis.

[Host 2]

Here. That guy is driving.

[Host 3]

Crazy. Easy.

My car keeps the.

[Host 2]

Score.

That's interest. Fun to know, because the main thing that was keeping me from doing that was like, I really don't want to shit in a bucket, and I really don't want to puke in the same bucket, you know? Like, I.

[Host 3]

Really. If they have separate buckets, I'm fine. One of the pee. Is this for puke or poop? I don't know. I'm.

[Host 2]

Drinking. I don't trust myself around two buckets. Three buckets. If there's room for one guy, two buckets. If there's room for a mistake, I will make it. I don't want to be near buckets. I don't.

[Host 3]

Want. I don't want the buckets. Keep these.

[Host 2]

Buckets. Keep the buckets away from me. I would do ayahuasca if you could sit and watch.

[Host 3]

Shrek. What if all of a sudden, Guns n Roses guitarist comes out? He's like, buckethead, no buckethead. Adam's bugging out. His buckethead is fucking ripping up.

[Host 2]

Court. Zach Galifianakis comes out. I'm like, that's.

[Host 3]

Baskets. I'm not afraid of.

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[Elna Baker]

Per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network spizy. Taxes and fees extra. See mint.

[Host 3]

Mobile.Com.

Talk me into.

[Elna Baker]

This. Okay, I'll talk you into it.

[Host 3]

And I'll want to do.

[Elna Baker]

It. I'll give you. So basically, like, don't do what I.

[Host 2]

Did.

[Elna Baker]

Okay. Okay. Which is like, I was like, oh my God, that this, like, teaches you so much that like, I should just do it every month, you know, like. And that's when, when you start doing it too much, that's when you become one of those people who's like, everything they say is abstract, you know, where they're like, yeah, but you know, like, the flow is the flow. And like, you.

[Host 2]

Can'T. You can't say anything.

[Elna Baker]

Anymore. Yeah. And they're not funny. You will become.

[Host 3]

Unfunny. Oh, yeah. Okay, Good to.

[Elna Baker]

Know. And so less.

[Host 3]

Funny. Even less funny funny is what we're.

[Elna Baker]

Saying. Yeah. So you will. You. You can't do that. But you can like. And oddly, like, so I did. I did ayahuasca. Specifically the same question I had of like, what's my problem with food? I did.

[Host 3]

Ayahuasca. Bring an intention to.

[Elna Baker]

The. Yeah, you bring an intention. So this wasn't. This was maybe the third time I did it. I asked that question and I was not ready to know the answer. And so I.

I didn't feel anything. And I was like, can I have more ayahuasca? They gave me a double dose and I still didn't feel anything. And it was like a waste of a trip. The whole night I laid there and I was like, so you weren't.

[Host 3]

Tripping at all because the question you asked, you just.

[Elna Baker]

Didn'T. Or were you tripping but not getting in the way? It's like my ego's defense mechanism against knowing the answer to this thing was so strong that, like. And I'm really happy I didn't learn it then. Cause it would have been really, like, dysregulating and disorienting. It would have undone my life at a time when I wasn't, like, ready for.

[Ad Read Voice 2]

It. Oh.

[Elna Baker]

Geez. So, like I said, talk me into it, but I'm saying that, like, I naturally protected myself from it, right? So, you know, and the thing that, like, I think people get afraid of it because it's like, what if, like, I find out that this horrible, dark thing inside of me on the.

[Host 3]

Next trip, does it unlock for.

[Elna Baker]

You?

So are.

[Host 3]

You. Are you getting stuff out of this? Are you enjoying the.

[Elna Baker]

Trip? Lot out of.

[Host 3]

It. Like, just not answering this.

[Elna Baker]

One. Yeah. Not this one question. So, like, I feel like I. I'm trying to think what. The first one.

The first one I remember, I.

Got up to go to the.

[Host 2]

Bathroom. Going to the bathroom on a trip is a.

[Elna Baker]

Nightmare. I know it's a.

[Host 2]

Nightmare. I. I hold it as long as I.

[Host 3]

Can. Pissing. I'm, like, staring at my.

[Host 2]

Lunchrooms. That's awful. And then, inevitably, you're like, I got to wash my hands. Then you wash your hands, and then you're in the mirror. You never want to be in the mirror. As soon as you're in the mirror, you're like, is wrong with.

[Elna Baker]

You?

[Host 2]

Totally. You know, it's like, why did you do.

[Host 3]

This? Stop it with your face. Why am I crying? Why am I.

[Host 2]

Cr.

It's like, that you don't want to.

[Host 3]

Get. You're like, does my face look like this all the.

[Host 2]

Time?

[Host 3]

Yeah. Oh, my God. This is what I look.

[Host 2]

Like. And you're like, I am kind of handsome. You're making out with your face. You're jerking.

[Host 3]

Off.

[Host 1]

Whoa.

[Host 3]

Okay. Maybe I am.

[Host 2]

Gay. I'm gay for.

[Host 3]

Myself.

Now. My bumper sticker makes sense.

We're like, back to Ayahuasca that we just go. Fucking forget.

[Host 2]

That. We're. Anyway, don't forget to tell your friends you were on Las.

[Elna Baker]

Culturistas.

Oh. So I go to the bathroom, and I look down, and I. You know, I. Because I did these. I did a circumferential body lift, which is where they cut you completely in half, and you have a scar all the way around.

[Host 2]

Yourself. Oh, my God, that must have been so.

[Host 3]

Painful. Wait, David Copperfield did this.

[Elna Baker]

Too? Yeah, David.

[Host 2]

Copperfield. Who's your surgeon? Johnny.

[Host 3]

Knoxville. Just like, now we're gonna do a lap. Yeah.

[Host 2]

That'S. That's.

[Elna Baker]

Really. So.

[Host 2]

I. Are you asleep for.

[Elna Baker]

That? Yeah. Yeah, you are. You're.

[Host 3]

Out. You're like, now stand up. And then you pull it.

[Elna Baker]

Up. And they like, so your blower, half your top out. So I, you know, went to go to the bathroom and I pulled down my pants and of course saw this scar. And I was just like, you know, I'm high as fuck on ayahuasca and I see this and I'm like, oh my God, like, what did I. What did I do? What did I do to myself?

Long ago, long ago, maybe had been like five years earlier or.

[Host 2]

Whatever. So.

[Elna Baker]

Heavy. And I was just like, like of all, like, no one has hurt me more than me. I have, you know, this sort of war I've been in against myself. And you're seeing and my body.

[Host 2]

And you're looking at your scar of.

[Host 3]

This thing, your body's keeping the.

[Elna Baker]

Score. And it was sort of like, this war ends now. Like, that's what I got from that first trip. Like, if I could take one thing away from.

[Host 3]

It. Oh.

[Host 2]

Cool. Yeah, that's.

[Elna Baker]

Nice. And so each trip you do have a thing that like, you can take away from, that you can really take.

[Host 2]

Away. Does it take a long time to come to that in the trip? Or is time hard to tell? Or is it just like you walked out of that bathroom and you're like, I figured it.

[Elna Baker]

Out. I think you have, like. So actually this will talk you into it. Okay, here you go. Ready? So, you know, you have the neural pathways in your brain. The best analogy I've heard to describe this is like, imagine like a field of. A tall field of grass. And like the animals walk through it and they tend to take the same path. And so that's what's like, you know, the grass is like matted down there, right? So that's the way that you typically think. You make a particular choice and.

[Host 3]

Your brain follows a neural pathway that's been routine.

[Elna Baker]

Or. And so you take these psychedelics and what happens is like a fresh sheet of snow has fallen over the whole thing and you don't go any particular direction that you've gone before. And that lasts for about six weeks. And so really what you get out of it is you have the trip, but then you have a six week period after where you're not habitually behaving the way you've always behaved. And so you're like, you know, so I had been a person say after that trip, I was someone who just believed everything was always my fault, which is why, like, I could be in an abusive relationship, right? And the snow fell over that part of my brain and I was like, this isn't my fault. I Just was not. Like, I came back a different person and it was long enough for me to get out of that.

[Host 1]

Relationship.

[Elna Baker]

Whoa. But, like, after about six weeks, snow melts. You go back to who you are, but you have, like, this touchstone for a different way of thinking and behaving and acting in the.

[Host 3]

World. I remember a few of the paths that were open during the.

[Elna Baker]

Snow. And if you're really committed to it, and that's. I do it with a therapist. So I've been working with the same psychedelic therapist now for six.

[Host 2]

Years. Can we get their.

[Elna Baker]

Name?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

Also, we need.

[Elna Baker]

Guests. He's remarkable. He's remarkable. But now I only do. The last time I did a big trip was two years ago. And it's taken me two years to make the adjustments that I learned.

To change my life to the. I wanna be the person I was for those six weeks. And so my mistake in the beginning was I was doing them, like, every six weeks. And I wasn't. Like, as soon as it wore off, I was like, well, drug me up.

[Host 3]

Again.

[Elna Baker]

Right. I wanna.

[Host 3]

Act. Let's run with this and ride with this new.

[Elna Baker]

Feeling. Figure out, like, what was causing this and how can I make actual changes in my life, you know, to become a different. To become more of the type of person that is my more authentic.

[Host 3]

Self. Right. What. What is the trip like? Is there. Is it visuals? Are you.

[Elna Baker]

Getting. It's different every time, you know, like, every time I've. I've done. Because I've done. I've been the most. I did nine grams of mushrooms, which is just a lot of.

[Host 3]

Mushrooms. I call that the heroic.

[Elna Baker]

Dose. Yeah. So I did it. Heroes dose of mushrooms. That was very visual. I've.

[Host 3]

Done. I consider myself like a horse of tolerance. And I've never gone.

[Elna Baker]

That. Salvia was the one that was the.

[Host 2]

Wild. I've done.

[Elna Baker]

Salvia. Yeah, salvia was wild. I mean, that. I went to, like, a totally different unit. I didn't, like, scared.

[Host 2]

Me. I didn't like.

[Host 3]

It. Yeah, it's one of those. That's the one that feels like you've been gone for six hours. You come back and it's been like.

[Elna Baker]

Three. That is so dmt.

[Ad Read Voice]

Ike.

[Host 3]

Yeah. DMT is not the same as ayahuasca, I think thought. Or is that, like, the.

[Host 2]

Chemical? I've never done.

[Elna Baker]

Dmt. I've done dmt. Should I be doing that dmt?

I think I got the most out of DMT of anything I've done. But it was. That's the one that I Haven't done psychedelics for two years since. Because I'm still trying to, like, figure out your dmt. Yeah. Change my behavior to match before.

[Host 3]

I. Like what the medicine talks.

[Ad Read Voice 2]

About.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah. Cause basically when it's almost like if you. I learned this the hard way. But, like, I had taken ayahuasca, I had this amazing trip, I had all these ideas, and then I was, like, following it all, and then I took ayahuasca six weeks later, and I was on a whole different trip. And all the stuff that I was sort of set out on course. It's almost like I closed that book and I opened a different.

[Host 3]

Book. And you didn't finish. You know, you're only on chapter.

[Elna Baker]

Four. Yeah. And, like, you know, they say, like, sometimes you have a trip that brings you up, and sometimes you have a trip that, like, really, like, knocks you down, and both are meant to, like, push you. You know, I know people who have, like, gotten. This isn't gonna. You're not gonna like this. But, like, got, like, really dysregulated and afraid because of a trip, and then they ultimately had to, like, get into meditation and change all these aspects of their life to fix what the trip kind of of did to.

[Host 3]

Them. Whoa. Yeah. We had a ketamine doctor on ketamine therapist, and he said. We talked about a bad trip. He's like, there is no bad trip. The plant shows you what you need to.

[Elna Baker]

See. It shows you.

[Host 3]

Exactly. And sometimes it's.

[Elna Baker]

Bad. And sometimes. Yeah, sometimes you sort of get knocked off your high horse. So I had been on a high horse, and I was like, great. And then I got knocked off, and it took a while to, like, reset from a bad trip, basically. And then. So with dmt, so.

[Host 3]

You. For the record, we're talking to someone who had a bad trip and then was still like, well, I'm going to do.

[Elna Baker]

Dmt.

[Host 3]

Yeah. Yeah, very.

[Elna Baker]

That's. No, I'm pretty, like, resilient. I'm a fearless. Like, I am pretty fearless.

[Host 3]

With. Yes, I would.

[Host 2]

Agree. I would say.

[Host 3]

So. I would say so. Now from. From co hosting a podcast with Johnny Knoxville all the way through all of this. That's fucking crazy. So what's the. What's a DMT trip like? I watched the documentary where people describe their trip trip, narrated by our nemesis slash perfect guest, Joe Rogan. But everyone describes, like, going to the end of a universe and, like, meeting, like, an alternate version of themselves. I'm not, but I'm curious what your DMT experience.

[Elna Baker]

Was. My DMT I thought it was gonna be that way because, like, I, you know, you'll see like animated things like where it's like I. The sky opened and I saw a million.

[Ad Read Voice]

Eyeballs.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Are you outside when you do.

[Elna Baker]

It? No, I was inside. Yeah, I was in like a, a, My therapist's.

[Host 3]

Cabin. Oh.

[Host 2]

Cool. But ayahuasca.

[Elna Baker]

Cabin. No, this isn't the one with the.

[Host 2]

Mannequins. Oh.

[Host 3]

Good. Yeah, that's like a fork too. No, Kim.

[Host 2]

Cattrall. Kind of a low rent one. We don't have any mushrooms, just.

[Host 3]

Dmt. But don't worry, Hollywood's.

[Host 2]

Back. That's all that matters.

So where are you doing this? You're. It's when you say, like my therapist's cabin, like, like the therapist that works with DMT has a cabin where he goes to do.

[Elna Baker]

Dmt. Yeah, he has like, you know, like, like, so I, I. This sort of psychedelic therapy community, like, they.

You know, it, I think people. So is there a text chain there? You know, you have to be.

[Host 3]

Very, like, you have to be on like.

[Elna Baker]

Signal. Yeah, exactly. You have to be on.

[Host 3]

Signal. Because I, Yeah, I use WhatsApp or Signal to talk to my mushroom.

[Elna Baker]

Therapist. And you know, right now, like, it's almost like so many friends are like, refer me, refer me. And like, the, the waiting lists, like, are crazy because so many people.

[Host 3]

Like, sorry, is DMT.

[Elna Baker]

Visual? Well, so I was expecting it to be, and my experience was not.

[Host 3]

Visual. But you still got, I got.

[Elna Baker]

Like so much out of it and that one was like. It was also. It was like, basically I.

Essentially realized I was poisoned and I was about to die and there was like a window of time where I had to get the poison out of me or I would die. And I was like, well, is it, is the poison the DMT I've taken? And it was like essentially the.

You know, whether you look at, like the thoughts I've been given in my life from my culture, but also some of the things that happened to me, like toxic shame, essentially. Like, I like these.

[Host 3]

Things. That was the.

[Elna Baker]

Poison. That was the poison that I had to, you know, essentially get out of my.

[Host 3]

Body. Now, if you don't mind me asking, I'm not gonna ask any specifics, but getting it out of your body, what does that mean? Processing it, talking to.

[Elna Baker]

Professionals. So I'm like, in this moment where I'm like, like, basically like it so intense, it really did feel like I have to act immediately or I will die. I am like, I only have seconds before I die. Jesus, And I was like, okay.

[Host 3]

So this is me on a flight of.

[Elna Baker]

Stairs.

I was like, I have to act immediately or I will die. And I was just like, okay.

Maybe I need to think more positively or maybe I need to. So I'm trying to do the mind logic. And I was like, oh, the mind logic is not.

It'S not gonna work. I'm not gonna solve this with my mind. And I just heard this voice that was like, only the body. Never the mind, only the body. And my body just like, I just started like writhing in these ways and then I like started making myself vomit. And then I let out this like insane. Honestly, the most beautiful sound. It was this like bellowing sound and this black trail of soot flew out of my mouth. So.

[Host 2]

Crazy.

[Host 3]

Holy. That's, that's, that's like wild. Seems like an.

[Elna Baker]

Exorcism. Yeah, it did. It.

[Host 3]

Did. Now you are on a two year run of processing.

[Elna Baker]

This. Yeah. Because like situation I think that like I, I, and I'm writing a book and, and that experience is what led me to start writing this book. And the book is actually the work of trying to figure out what all of that was in.

[Host 3]

Me. Cool. Wow. An investigative look into your own psyche is pretty fucking.

[Elna Baker]

Crazy. Yeah.

[Host 3]

Yeah. You're like the Clarice Starling for.

[Elna Baker]

Yourself. Yes.

[Host 3]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Totally. Yeah. Wild. The role, what a.

[Host 3]

Role. I'm also the Hannibal Lecter for myself. Unfortunately.

We will cut her in.

[Host 2]

Half.

I could talk to you.

[Host 3]

Forever. Yeah. And unfortunately I do have your email. So I'm going to send so many follow.

[Elna Baker]

Ups. I mean it's just, did, I did. What did you guys like? Are there things on your healing thing that you got ideas.

[Host 3]

For? Because it's making me want to go back to my, I'm, I've this whole personal life stuff and what's happening on the show is making me want to go back to my mushroom plant medicine doctor and do a session with them. But the idea of doing ayahuasca or DMT also appeals to me. But I, I, I, I think I need to get over some hump because I don't want to go into it. Kind of afraid of what could happen. I feel like that's maybe not the right head space. You kind of convinced me that ayahuasca would be, you know, a move for me. So I might, I might end up doing something like.

[Host 2]

That. Yeah. I think I'm going to start with ketamine because it sounds the most fun and.

And then I'll go from.

[Elna Baker]

There. MDMA Actually has been the most. Next to dmt. MDMA has actually been the most.

[Host 2]

Useful.

[Elna Baker]

Really?

[Host 3]

Yeah. MDMA.

[Host 2]

Therapy. You.

[Elna Baker]

Also. All right, so mdma, I'll tell you, this is my hard sell. Last thing I'll say for.

[Host 2]

You. Do not have the hard.

[Host 3]

Sell. Yeah, these guys. I ate a gummy at my. At a friend's party. That was psyl, Ibin and MDMA and 1. And it was.

[Host 2]

Bananas. No, no, I'm. I'm. Are. Do you have.

[Host 3]

Any.

She's gonna blow poison frog dust into our.

[Host 2]

Burning. Do you have a frog on.

[Host 3]

You? You got a cambo. Hey, let me get a hit of cambo. This sound like a terrarium with.

[Host 2]

A. Honestly, I don't care what frog it is. It could. It could jump on the table and sing the theme song to the wb.

As long as you put it in my arm, I'm fine with.

[Elna Baker]

It. Well, DMT is from toads. Oh, yeah. So it's all. Yeah, So I. I have found, like, a lot of people who want essentially, like, therapy on steroids. Right. That's why they're. They're interested in psychedelics. They. They start with mushrooms. And the mushrooms, for me has been more, like, expansive of unlocking, like, a much bigger understanding of my consciousness. But, like, it didn't necessarily help me figure out, like, what happened here. Why am I the way I am? And MDMA is, I think, the best for that. Ketamine too.

[Host 3]

Actually.

[Host 2]

Wow. Yeah, so that's where I'm gonna start. And then I'm gonna.

[Host 3]

Build. You're gonna do K, N E. Same.

[Host 2]

Time. I'm gonna get two.

[Host 3]

Therapists. K on the left, E on the.

[Host 2]

Right. And then I'm gonna make them go back and forth. I'm gon to.

[Host 3]

Everything. Look, I really don't have time, Doc. We're gonna do all six ideas.

In hot yoga. Unlike mushrooms, in a cold plunge. Sitting in a hot yoga room in a cold plunge would be so. Fucking water's like boiling.

Oh, fuck. El. No, this was. This is the most amount of takeaway, most homework I've ever given myself from an episode where I'm like, well, Google Southern California DMA.

[Host 2]

Therapist. I mean, I truly. It's. I think the. The. The thing that's just so nice to talk is, like, your lack of. Like you're not scared of it and you're looking for answers. And I feel like, you know, especially with. When any sort of narcotic is brought into the conversation.

The. The. The first thought is that the narcotic is. That is how you're running from it, but you're actually running into it, you know, like your trauma. You're like, you're not using the. The.

[Host 3]

Chemicals. It's not an escape.

[Host 2]

Escape. You're using it as an entry. And I feel like that. That's, like, really brave. And I hope.

[Host 3]

Truly. Truly. This is. May sound hyperbolic, but truly.

[Host 2]

Inspirational.

[Elna Baker]

Yeah. Thank.

[Host 2]

You. I was gonna say I hope it were. I hope it inspires some of. Some of our listeners, and it definitely inspired us.

[Host 3]

Yeah. And of course, consult a physician.

[Elna Baker]

Your. And take it.

[Host 3]

Slow. Don't take it slow. Do all.

[Host 2]

That. Don't go for those nine.

[Host 3]

Grand. Don't go for the heroes, though. Start with the sidekicks. Dos. Get a little Robin. Before you go full.

[Host 2]

Batman. Is there anything that you. You want to plug at all? Like, floor is.

[Host 3]

Yours. Well, good luck on.

[Elna Baker]

Your. Yeah, I have a book, but it. I don't have a. It'll be a.

[Host 2]

While.

[Host 3]

Yeah. Well, hey, who knows when this is going to air.

[Host 2]

So. Or.

[Host 3]

If. And keep in.

[Elna Baker]

Touch.

[Host 3]

Yeah. With me.

[Host 2]

And.

And after we're off, you'll just give me the numbers of all these.

[Host 3]

People.

I got to get Cambo's number. I need a Cambo guy in la.

Frog with a little red bandana. You telling me we can win this time?

Thank you. All.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Elna Baker]

Thanks. Thanks.

[Host 3]

Guys. Holy.

[Host 2]

Shit. That was fun. That was so fun, Ella.

So, dude, you have to tell the. You have to tell the story that she.

[Host 3]

Wanted. The sandwich story. Yeah. Yes, because this was. It was part of my blackout drunk show that you were. You were a bartender on several.

[Host 2]

Times. Well, I don't know if you remember, but the first time you told this story I told, I said, oh, my God. I have almost the exact same.

[Host 3]

Story. Surprising enough, we have similar origin stories. Yeah. So the sandwich story is famously. My. My dad was a big cold cuts guy, as like most Long island men are. And he would only get boar's head, and he would only go to. I got to go two towns over to Ernesto's Deli. They have the best. And he's buying brand name Boar's.

[Host 1]

Head.

[Host 2]

Right. But you can get it.

[Host 3]

Anywhere. You can get it any deli. But he likes to go because.

[Host 2]

They. Well, maybe Ernest Ernesto cuts it.

[Host 3]

Right. Yeah. He cuts the cheese thick and the meat thin. And that's like. That's important. That was important to my father. But I also was at this time living at home and kind of a party animal. Cause it was like the summer after college, and my dad was a super strict guy. Who would kind of like vacuum at 9 in the morning and hit your door with the vacuum a bunch just cause like you shouldn't be sleeping in because grind set mindset or whatever the fuck he was doing and. But he would have all these cold cuts. The one rule you couldn't do was finish a cold cut because he would want that sandwich like if you. Who finished the fucking roast beef. And so whatever. So I come home one night, bombed out of my fucking mind. Now this starting here is all evidence I just uncovered the morning after. So here's the break in what I remember I had broken my key off in the door, but got it shut the door behind me with my key jammed in it, AKA unable to lock it again, made myself a sandwich and then went. Went to bed. And.

[Host 2]

Then. That's what you.

[Host 3]

Thought? That's what I, that's, that's what I. I was like, oh, that's what I did. I think. And then my dad comes in the room and he's like, johnny, wake up, wake up. He's like, did you have friends over last night? And I was like, no. And he's like, there's. Somebody ate the cold cuts. And I was like, oh, you know, I'm just like kids. Like I'm 20. So I lie. I' he didn't do it. He's like, someone ate all the cold cuts.

And I was like, all the cold cuts. And then my dad starts writing roast beef, the salabi, the brijut. And my dad pronounces all that stuff with the no gabagool, the soupasat. And he's like, it's all gone. I'm like, okay, that in my head I go, now I know that wasn't me. So I immediately, again, I'm one of three boys, throw the other two under the bus. Must have been Justin or Jason. Dad, it wasn't me.

[Host 2]

I'm. I'm.

[Host 3]

Safe. Yeah, I'm safe. It wasn't me. And my father's like, get up. You have to go to the store and buy cold cuts. I'm like, it wasn't me. He goes, get up. He rips my blanket off. And on my chest, spackled to me with mayo and mustard, is a fucking enormous like Dagwood sandwich with one bite taken out of it. And it's like bread, supasat, gabagool, roast beef, more bread, turkey, cheese, ham. It's like so fucking big. And it spackled to my fucking chest. And my dad whips my blanket off, already angry. And then when he Sees it. It's like a Pokemon cut screen because it, like, zooms My brain zooms in on his face and his ice blue eyes and his super red face. And he's like, God damn it, Jonathan. He's like, mustard.

I jump out of bed and I realize I'm so hungover. I'm like, wobbly. And I stand up and I'm a little wobbly. And then I look down and the sandwich is not falling off my chest. It is just like, I must have just steam pressed it to my chest. I panini to fucking sandwich to my fuck. And my dad is just like, getting the fucking shout. You're going to Ernesto. I was like, oh, fuck. Always called Enzo's even crazier, even more.

[Host 2]

Italian. Oh.

[Host 3]

Man. So Elna helped me develop that story to be on an episode of this American Life. It ended up not being used because there was an element of shitting involved in the story too, because the main. The main thing might. Then I got in trouble because I took a dump and my dad was like, you stunk up the whole fucking house. I go, you can't be mad at me for shitting. Please. I live here. Like, I. In your bathroom, there's another bathroom. Like, I didn't shit on the.

[Host 2]

Floor.

[Host 3]

Yeah. He was mad at me for pooping in.

[Host 2]

General. I. Look, that's. That is tough and definitely traumatic.

[Host 3]

But you've walked into an.

[Host 2]

Iho. No, no, not even you. I have a. I have two boys and, like, there are times and it does stink up the whole house. So, like, I under. Your dad shouldn't have handled it that.

[Host 3]

Way. Yeah, yeah.

[Host 2]

Agree. But I.

[Host 3]

Understand. A blanket statement for my.

[Host 2]

Childhood. The feeling of being like, oh, God, this smells horrible. All right, well, Elna was.

[Host 3]

Amazing. Yeah.

I. This. I truly am going to reach out. I want to hit up some of these therapists. Look forward to end of the season when I'm totally, like, a vibes guy.

[Host 2]

Yeah. No, and like, I'm bringing. I'm bringing Ellen into the sphere with us and Dr. Rat. It's going to be the best.

[Host 3]

Time. We're going to force Ellen to do recreational drugs.

Hey, see you next week.

You have been listening to Staying Alive with John Gabris and Adam Pali. A smartless media production in association.

[Host 2]

With Sirius XM Produced by Devin Tory Bryant and Anne Harris. Engineered and edited by Devin Tory Bryant, who also wrote the.

[Host 3]

Music. Associate producer and video producer is Matty McCann. Social media producer Tommy.

[Host 2]

Galgano. Assistant engineer Kyle McGraw. Special thanks to Jared O' Connell at Sirius XM executive producers are John.

[Host 3]

Gabris. Ooh, me, Adam Pally. Ooh, you Will Arnett, Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, Richard Courson, and Bernie Kaminsky. Do us a favor. Just rate and review the podcast. It actually.

[Host 2]

Helps. Just so everyone knows, we do not have a.

[Host 3]

Discord. Don't reach out to.

[Host 2]

Us. See us on the street. Walk the other way or you'll catch.

[Elna Baker]

Him.

Hey, Bernie, can you hand me my phone? It's in my coat.

[Host 2]

Pocket. Damn, that's a veteran of working with.

[Elna Baker]

Bernie.

[Host 3]

Yeah.

Someday we'll see Bernie get rattled. I don't think it'll ever.

[Host 2]

Happen. Yeah, I'm.

[Host 3]

Trying. Yesterday we were doing bits that we accidentally hear in the studio that Anne is berating Bernie and trying to picture what Bernie could have done. That upset so far, a phone.

[Elna Baker]

Call yesterday where he was very.

[Host 3]

Animated. Oh, he's like.

[Host 2]

Maybe. I. I actually saw Bernie yesterday on. It was like a police sketch.

By the. By the. I was walking down by the. It was like near the post office and it was like, if you.

[Host 3]

See this guy, it had an ace of.

[Host 2]

Spades. I was, I was walking through saloon.

[Host 3]

Doors.

I saw him spray painted silver in Union Square.

Podcast industry is crumbling.

[Elna Baker]

Guys.

[Host 3]

Smart.

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