B (4:50)

Well, Steve, good to see you and thanks for having me on. I appreciate your kind words. Charlie was a huge fan of your voice, as am I. And just the sobriety and soundness that you bring to the issues of the day is so critical, especially this time that we're in right now. And so I'm grateful to stand alongside of you and to be on the program.

A (5:10)

Well, the feeling is mutual. Every word right back to you. And thank you. Let's start just with a very simple, but I think maybe difficult question to answer. How are you?

B (5:24)

That is always the hardest question right now. The best way I've found to describe this is it's like turning on the hot and the cold water full blast at the same time. The best of times, worst of times. At the risk of being cliche, there has been so much to be thankful for. Revival, transformation, churches doubling and tripling in size and Bible sales, Gen Z showing up to church. Even in my own life, I've just been very grateful. I had a book that did very well. The End of this last year, got my first New York Times bestseller list nomination there. And despite all of that, there's this cataract of grief of the loss of Charlie. And even beyond the loss of Charlie, which is a pain that has not gone away, is also the pain of seeing a world without Charlie and the devastation that that was, recognizing how much he was holding together, how much he was, you know, God was using him to unify the movement in many ways, the church. And so I don't know if I have a great answer to it, but it's all those things at once.

A (6:52)

It's gotta be surreal on one hand to just not have him to just bounce ideas off of. If nothing else, I mean, his energy level, his Persona was very infectious. I think of a time that him and I sat down to do a panel together at this five star resort in Naples, Florida, with an exclusive group of Christian movers and thinkers in 20 in December of 2023. And it's the first time we had. We had been together Since I endorsed DeSantis in the primary and he did a talk before me in the morning on his own. And. And I believe every single DeSantis supporter in that room, Lucas, probably texted me that morning complaining, okay, Charlie's really pushing it hard. You got to get in here and even the score, Steve. All right? You know, and I'm getting all these messages and everything. I'm like, I just came here to, you know, try to convince Christians to actually make good movies, you know, and. And so, you know, we are at the same table and we kind of sat down some of the people at the table, like, how's this going to go? But we just kind of picked up the conversation like it was the last time we saw each other, man. And, you know, we were following the college football games on, you know, on our ph and everything else, you know, and so, I mean, even in the midst of what would for a lot of other people be a very contentious moment, I mean, he could not have been friendlier, more personable. We had a great panel. Everything was phenomenal. And so it's. On one hand, it's just got to be a searing loss to not have that when that was your general. But on the other hand, now you've got to step in. You know, no one. No one can fill his shoes singularly. But on an organizational level, I mean, you are being asked to fill at least, you know, a shoe or, you know, the toes of a shoe, at least, you know, and. And now you have the role of a general, right? And the war goes on at the same time. And so you have to almost compartmentalize, I would imagine, on a lot of days, you know, And I mean, do you give yourself? Have you. Have you yourself had time to grieve in everything yet?

B (9:04)

I would say it's. No, not the way that I would like to. I think that's the honest part of this. I mean, from. I was out of town when I got the news that Charlie had been shot. At that moment, we didn't obviously know the outcome yet. He had invited me to attend that event in Utah, and I had to remind him that he had already approved my. My vacation. He goes, oh, no, no, that's more important. He's like, enjoy that time with Chrissy. And he's like, you deserve it. He's like, you guys have been going so hard lately. And so we were actually out of the country, and my assistant had essentially told me. He said, hey, I'm not going to bug you all. You're gone. I'll shoot you an email. If it's just kind of day to day stuff, if you want to check it, it's there. Otherwise, I'll only call you if something really goes wrong. And so I'm sitting by the pool and I see my phone light up and it's my assistant. And my heart just sank. I knew immediately, you know, I didn't know if it was my family. I didn't know what it was, but I knew something was wrong. And so I answered the phone with, you know, with a tremendous degree of caution. And I just hear the words Charlie's been shot, it's bad. Figure out how to get home. And, you know, it's been almost a continuous state of motion since then. Of course, the demand has, you know, after the memorial, we went from 4,000 churches in TPSA faith to 8,000 churches, you know, working on assimilating those new pastors from across, you know, virtually every denominational line. I mean, TPUSA faith is not a monolithic entity in the sense that there is an agreement around primary doctrine, but we have a lot of different denominational pathways that are underneath that broader umbrella. And so it's charismatics to Calvinists. And so I've been going back and forth across the country, really rallying these guys, getting them connected, answering questions, being available and continuing to work. I mean, Charlie was in the business of finding and I think developing gladiators. And what people didn't understand after he had been shot about turning point is there would be statements like, how are they going back to work? How was it business as usual? And of course it wasn't. There's still a massive void there. But God's faithful and he gives us the grace for today. There's a tremendous grace on Erica's life. And Charlie trained all of us to be the kind of people that no matter what happens, that you get back up and you go to work the next day and you keep going because the mission is growing greater than the sum of its individual parts in the mission. And so it has been both exhilarating and challenging. Obviously, there's kind of dragons behind every corner that needs slayed these days. But there's a really strong morale despite the grief and that cataract of grief, as I've called it, that's there. And so I'm just. So. I'm grateful to be in this position. I don't feel worthy of it. I just am, you know, really relying on the fact that I know that God placed me here. It was a divine assignment. I trust that he's prepared me to do what needs to be done in this role. And I'm also grateful to have Charlie's endorsement. I didn't. I didn't apply for this job. I wasn't looking for anything else. I still pastor a church in Indiana. I do this. In addition, I really, in many ways, rob from my church's time and with their permission, to be able to do the role that I do throughout the week for TPSA faith. And it's all consuming. I couldn't even tell you how many hours I'm working right now, but I'm supercharged. I know that I'm in the right spot and I understand the mission. And Charlie left very clear blueprints on where we're going from here, and, and we're carrying that out. And the work hasn't changed in that regard. The battle's the same. We're working on uniting the church across primary doctrine, despite denominational differences and secondary positions. And we're going to eradicate Wokeism from the American church. And also, I'll say I'd love to see it eradicated from Christian universities in this nation as well. And, you know, we're going to become and continue to be a trusted voice for the American people when it comes to the gospel and Christianity and where they can look to for issues of faith. You know, we want them to be able to rely on us here at TPC Faith.

A (13:47)

One last question on just how everybody's doing personally, and then we'll get into some of the, the issues of the day and some of the things you tackle in your books as well. But, and again, we don't, we don't know. This could run in January next year, this could run Easter next year, who knows? But as of now, we're on the cusp of the holidays. And anyone who has suffered a terrible loss will tell you the hardest part is actually when kind of everybody else goes back to their normal, because life does have to go on and, and you're still there dealing with the loss. And so, you know, for you guys, you know, for Erica, for the team there, how are they doing now? Or is there still kind of a rush right now because America Fest is here and, and maybe a better question or a better time to ask that might be the middle of January after the holidays and everything else, and maybe things are at a much more normal pace.

B (14:42)

Yeah, and it's a great question. I think it's one that's close to people's hearts as they care so much. And Erica has obviously won over so many across this nation. Her words of forgiving the shooter, I think were. They were unimaginable words to be uttered from a grieving widow's mouth. And it was instantly people knew it was only by God's grace that somebody could say that. I think when I look at Turning Point, when I look at TPSA Faith, what I see is a family. And it's indicative of the types of relationships that Charlie developed, the people that he gathered around him, and really, he and Erica gathered around them, and there is such a closeness. I mean, There's a communication on a daily basis between the senior teams, between major divisions across the companies. We've cried together, we've laughed together, we have stood side by side and fought the battle together. Most of the people who are here weathered through the 2024 election cycle. There were scars during that time period that the team endured. And I think that there was that closeness that you can only get from being in the trenches together. And that has paid dividends in, I think, the relational aspect of the organization. It's brought a tremendous closeness. There's no amount of attack from the outside that can overcome bonds that are forged in that way. Charlie very carefully kind of hand selected virtually everybody at top level in this organization and he picked them for a reason. And they're tied in, they're close. We're moving ahead. We understand the assignment. Obviously you think about Charlie's family and Erica, unimaginable loss. I don't want to speak for her on this issue, but I think that everybody can imagine the difficulty of being. I mean, first of all, it's challenging just to be in the spotlight prior to the events of September 10, to have the whole nation looking at. I mean, Charlie was one of the most well known figures in this nation, potentially one of the greatest Americans to ever live. A tremendous thought leader, to say the least. And then you put on top of this assassination, martyrdom, murder. And it is to think that any one person, namely Erica, has to go through that. It's so difficult. I got to spend a lot of time with her a few weeks back and just seeing her in the driver's seat, there was such a tremendous resolve, a commitment to Charlie's mission, an ability to be able to clearly say yes or no depending upon what the task was, knowing full well how he would have felt about it, what the mission was prior and continuing that forward. She is doing a tremendous job. Our C suite's been amazing. Our board has been amazing. There's just a unity. And so it doesn't mean it's been easy, but I've just been so grateful to be part of this team. I never thought, I never had intentions of being in this role. 18 months ago, two years ago, ago, this would have been on. It wouldn't even come to my mind. But I'm seeing now more than ever why God has me here. And I think that although Charlie probably didn't realize it, and I certainly didn't realize it, I think in many ways God was using Charlie to train all of us for this moment that we're living in right now. And I'm just trusting that although every single one of us wishes so desperately, Charlie was here because he, he's better at this than any one of us was or is or could be, that in God's grace, there's something about the people that he's gathered around at this moment in time, that there is a grace on our life for today to be able to do what needs to be done at this moment in history. I can't be Charlie Kirk, but I can only strive to be the best Lucas Miles that I can be right now. And I just pray to God that that's enough. You know, we look at what's really before us at the moment.

A (19:17)

You mentioned Charlie being one of the most well known Americans, and yet it's funny, I heard from a lot of people in the aftermath of his murder, Lucas, and I'm sure you heard from scores more people who felt as if they actually maybe just got to know the fullness of him. And I especially heard this among a lot of our evangelical brethren. And I would imagine this had a lot to do with the massive explosion of church growth that you guys have, have, have seen in your organization in particular, because I think there was this notion that, that Charlie was using the gospel for political access. And I think now that people are seeing the fullness of what went on at these ask me anything events, I think they're seeing that it was the exact opposite was happening, okay? That, that Charlie used his political credibility for the. On behalf of the gospel, that, that he actually used his seat at the table as a pulpit. And there's no, there's no greater witness to this than his own memorial where, I mean, Don Jr. Probably told more people about St. Stephen than they've heard from almost any of their pastors in the last how many decades. For example. Right? I mean, Marco Rubio got up there and gave the gospel. Okay. I mean, and in an almost. I hate, and I don't want to say this in a patronizing sense, but it was kind of adorable that, that the President did not know what to do at an event where he was not the, the biggest name there, in a way. You know, I mean, it all. He almost seemed in a, in, in, in a, in a cute way, kind of out of place, that this was kind of, I mean, this, this, I mean, that was the largest gospel presentation in the history. The, the planet that went on there. And, and, and, and yet, and with the exception of, you know, you know, Frank and Rob, everybody else that gave those gospel presentations Or. Or spoke about their faith were all political figures. And that does not come from, you know, essentially prostituting yourself out to the political process. That comes from the. From actually principally using the process for your faith. And I think that caused a lot of our brethren to go back and take another look at who this guy was and what he was really doing. And I've said on my show more than a few times since his death, I said, there's things about him you guys don't truly understand. I mean, this was a young man in a large organization with a lot of young women. No hint of scandal, none. Not even a rumor. I mean, we lived in four years under Biden that, I mean, if you thought of donating to Trump once, you might need a lawyer up. Charlie is overseeing maybe the largest profligate nonprofit in the entire MAGA movement. I have to imagine, Lucas, that the Biden administration went through that 990form about 666 times, brother, if you know what I'm saying. Okay? Not nothing. No indictments, no audits, nothing. And I think that's the part of it. I mean, just his own personal character, despite that acclaim and the access that he had, I think that's kind of the unknown story of him that I think most really didn't know until after he was murdered.

B (22:29)

I mean, I think that. That Charlie, without a doubt, there was a. An underlayment of faith that really laid the foundation for everything that he did. I think that only grew as he got older. You look at the people that he surrounded himself with. Charlie had so many pastors that he was close to. He kind of collected them in many ways. He loved their advice, their wisdom, as you were part of at times, you know, with me, and got to see this where he. He'd sit at a dinner table with a group of people and just ask questions and learn and think and go back and forth and. And, you know, just that. That value of faith, the gospel, his. His kind of just insatiable hunger for God's word and wisdom was so evident to those who are close to us. And, you know, look, you have to remember, like, I've been pastoring this same church now for 21 years, okay? I'm not a. I'm not a political, you know, activist. I'm not coming from a campaign world. I never worked for, you know, anybody who was running for office or anything like that at any level. I've been pastoring. And so when I came into kind of the ecosystem of Turning Point, especially TPSA faith, I was Very. I had my antenna up. I wanted to see, is this place legit? Is this guy legit? You know, really? And I got. I Met Charlie in 2020. I was impressed with him and at the same time, probably jealous of him. And I'm like, who's this young guy? What's he doing? You know, sort of deal. And, you know, I'm 15 years older, you know, than him. And. And, you know, you have those thoughts and. And. But yet there was something very intriguing. And the more time I got to spend with him, the more I saw him, the more I watched some. The more I finally interacted. I had him on my podcast show and was very impressed by him. And I eventually got to speak at a pastor summit, and one of his team had invited me because of my book, either the Christian Left or Woke Jesus. I don't remember. And Charlie afterwards said, hey, I'd like to meet with you, and spent some time with me, immediately starts asking me, tell me about the Council of Nicaea. He just jumped right into these. These just, you know, these theological ideas and topics that he was. So he did that.

A (24:50)

When we did the event in June, we drove over to the dinner with you, and he was still working on the Sabbath book. And in the middle. And literally in the middle of a conversation, I know where he goes, hey, give me your first 5 thoughts on the Sabbath and what Christians ought to do. Yes. So, yeah, I saw that. Yes.

B (25:03)

Yeah, that was just. That was Charlie. And when I. Even when I got hired, I mean, I had grown. I had a friendship with Charlie. I. There was a. There was a general trust there, but I'd not been on the inner working of the organization. And so Charlie calls me. I thought he was just going to ask me to kind of act as an advisor in the hiring process for somebody else. He ends up saying, no, there's no hiring process. You're the guy. Basically, the Lord told me they're supposed to be the one to do this. And I knew as soon as he said it was God, I just didn't want to admit it. And I'm on the phone, it's late at night. I'm looking at my wife, who's taking the call, stepped out of bed to talk to with Charlie. I'm pacing in our hallway, and I'm just looking at my wife like, you are never going to believe this one. But I knew it was God, and we figured it out. And I preach on the weekends and commute and everything else. But as I came into the organization, all that to say I was so touched by the inner workings of Turning Point that one of my initial emotions was a tremendous sadness and to some degree, a shame that here you have these young, in many cases, just young people in their 20s that are outworking and outpacing the church in their mission to share the gospel, specifically within TPSA faith, and working harder than most churches were working. And I felt such a conviction of. About pastors in America. And look, I've always been this hustle guy. You know, we work really hard at my ministry. I've pushed people. It's gotten so much different since seeing, you know, how Charlie operated. I think that my staff at my own ministry has been both like, what got into him? And this is also really exciting because I came back with a new roadmap and a new vision of how to. How to run an organization, how to do. How to do ministry. I mean, Charlie supercharged me, and I still feel that, you know, and so there's just a tremendous amount of gratitude. It doesn't seem real. It just. I mean, here we are, you know, I mean, multiple months since this happened, and it still does not seem. It just feels like he's traveling and I'm going to get a phone call or I'm going to get. You know, we'll set up a dinner and be able to talk to him about what he thinks about all this stuff. It just. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be in a world where Charlie Kirk isn't part of it anymore. And all that we've seen over the last several months just reinforces that to me.

A (27:37)

We're up against the first break here, but, I mean, I had one of those moments last night. I was sent a screener of this Kevin Costner special on the first Christmas that he has produced himself. And I'm watching how personal Costner is relating the gospel is to him. And at the end, he literally admits he believes the resurrection is true. And I'm like, holy crap. I mean, this is going to be on network TV next week all over America. One of the biggest stars in Hollywood history is telling gonna people say to people on network tv, he believes the resurrection is true. This wouldn't have happened even a year or two ago. And I felt like I was like, I gotta text Charlie. Has he. Does he know about this? I mean, I've had. I've had a few moments like that. I mean, I would imagine you guys have had scores of moments like that.

B (28:21)

Yeah. The worst one was this was shortly after things happened. I was out in Phoenix at our headquarters and I'm coming out of one of our buildings and we have fairly long campus and multiple buildings. And I look down and I see this guy and I think it's Charlie. And in my head I go, oh, there's Charlie. And then it immediately hits me. And it was just another one of the staff that just was tall and had a similar build and gait and. And Charlie used to. He'd sometimes come on campus and kind of go work out. So he'd see him in exercise clothes or something like that. And there was just this instant sinking feeling. And so we miss him tremendously. Let me just say, kind of answer your original question here. We so covet the prayers that people have been praying for us. I'm confident I can speak for Erica and the family on that. So many people have been just the groundswell of support has been amazing and please keep it up. You know, there's a lot more to do, a lot more to move forward on this for family, for spouse. This doesn't go away. And so, you know, but through God's grace, you know, you move forward. And we're doing that. And we, you know, I'm optimistic on what 2026 looks like, you know, as we continue.

A (29:42)

Well, we are going to move forward and continue here with Lucas Miles from TPUSA Faith on a special edition of the Steve Day show here on the Blaze in a moment. Stay tuned.

B (29:56)

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A (31:38)

Back here with a good friend of mine on a special edition of the Steve Day Show, Lucas Miles, head of TPUSA faith here on a special edition of the Steve Day show on Blaze, tv, radio and podcast. And again, we are recording this on the eve of the first America Fest without our dear friend Charlie Kirk. We don't know when you guys will watch this at some point in 2026, but that kind of sets the stage for you in the moment. Now though, before we get to all of that, spring cleaning season is here and a lot of times you start with your closet or your garage. But what if you want to upgrade your life? Maybe start the pantry. Now go look at that typical bag of chips and you'll find a laundry list of ingredients, the many of which you can't pronounce. But Masa chips, they're different. They contain just three ingredients. Organic corn, sea salt and 100 grass fed beef tallow. That's it. No seed oils, no mystery chemicals and they taste incredible. And there's a reason why the bag is smaller because you won't eat as many because you're going to get full quicker. Because it's real food, right? And if you is, and by the way, they're, they're their brother. The Vandy Crisps, they're even greater if you ask me. Those are fantastic. So go to masachips.com dace use the code dace. M A S A. By the way, use the code DACE for 25 off. Your first order. That's Masa chips. M a s a masachips.com/dace and use the code DACE for 25 off. Get some real food. And you know one of the great ironies, Lucas, is that the so called seeker sensitive crowd didn't have time for Charlie and what he was trying to do. And yet the great irony of that is if there was one person in America that was doing seeker sensitive ministry, it was Charlie. I mean, he was the one that went to the streets. He was the one that went to the college campuses and actually was engaging the seekers. And there was a lot of discussion in the aftermath of his murder that really the last person of influence on our side remaining who is still trying to have these conversations and persuade people to come over, was murdered. And that maybe we are post debate now. We are post argument now. So as we kind of move forward into what the, what the world looks like now without Charlie and what our movement, what your organization looks like without Charlie moving forward. Let's start there. Is the argument over? Is the debate over or isn't it?

B (34:01)

You know, I would almost push back initially here, and I think this is the, this protective side of me. But it's also, I think the truth completely is that, you know, yes, Charlie was murdered. He's, you know, his life was robbed and stolen from this planet. He was martyred, he was assassinated. But, but tpusa. Tpusa. Faith is not without Charlie Kirk. His vision, his DNA, his blueprint, his roadmap is all over his selection and mentorship, his leadership, kind of that visionary general that he was. He has left his fingerprints over this entire organization and the culture, the DNA is continuing to reproduce in like kind. I'm grateful for that and I hope that that continues for decades to come. Obviously, there's always that concern of mission Drift. Anytime you have a large organization that they lose their founder, their founder passes or hands over the baton. And I would say that that's something we're very cognizant of. And there is a tremendous awareness with inside of Turning Point to keep the ship pointed in the direction that Charlie set the course for, while still also recognizing that new obstacles and new issues are going to surface all around us and that we have to do the thing that Charlie always did, and we have to look at those things and process them in a way that promotes conservative values, faith, family, liberty, and ultimately the gospel. I think, especially within my department at tpsa, Faith. And so it's been very interesting to see and I think in some ways the team is closer than ever before as we've had to kind of lean into each other and rely on each other in Charlie's absence. And I'm grateful to be in the mix and to walk this out with the team that's there.

A (36:09)

I'm hesitant to ask you about specific events and people in the aftermath of where we are simply because I don't know when this is going to run. And I know that you don't shy away from those topics. You and I've discussed them privately. I know, you've even commented on some of them publicly. But given I don't know when this is going to run, I think maybe asking you about specific people or circumstances and controversies at this moment might not be appropriate, because I don't know where they will be at the time that this actually airs. So. So let's talk in general. In general, were you as shocked as I was at people who felt that chart the aftermath of Charlie's murder, for lack of a better description, was. Was an engagement farm, was a. Was a chance to. Essentially, you know, there's that meme that goes around where the guy looks in the mirror and says, get in there and make it about you. Okay. Were you. Were you as shocked as I was to see that there was a group of people who felt like that was that this was the time to make it about themselves?

B (37:15)

I didn't know how things were going to play out, but the night of the memorial, so I had, you know, my team is remote. They're all over the country, and, you know, they call on pastors nationwide, and I've got about 40 staff members within TPUSA faith right now, at least at the time of this recording. Hopefully it'll be double by time this actually comes out. But the. After the memorial, because we're not together that often in the same city, we set up a dinner kind of a time just to almost have a wake together, to cry, to laugh, to reunite with each other. And so we had our staff with their spouses and kind of gathered together. There was a church that hosted us in the area and just kind of had a chance just to relax a little bit together the night of the memorial. And after we're done eating, I shared with them, and just the Lord really laid this on my heart, and I said, right now we are in the moment of potentially the greatest unity in the history of Christendom right now. I mean, we saw it instantly. And I said, but I want you guys to know and I want you to be prepared that we're not unaware of the devil's schemes. There will come major obstacles to that and attacks on that unity for the purpose of trying to disrupt that, to break apart the body of Christ, to create wedges in the movement, and we have to be prepared for what comes next. I didn't know, even as I was saying those words, what that was going to look like, who it was going to come from, what direction it was going to come from. I just know how the enemy works. We saw the same thing after Trump was elected in 2024 took all this unity to get him there. And then immediately you had kind of these sub fractures that started happening. And that's just a cycle. And I think that how it happened was probably worse than even what I was expecting, just the chaos and the craziness that kind of ensued afterwards. But look, I think that truth always rises to the top, and that was a value that Charlie had. This is why he gave placement for open dialogue. He wasn't afraid of tough conversations or debate around issues. He had bumper lanes that he had in place, and they were there for a reason. There were strong fences, but within those fences, they were wide enough that you could have some really broad, robust conversations about issues, whether that was in faith of. Of, say, Calvinism versus Arminianism or free will or over the issue of Israel or issues of vaccines or no vaccines. I mean, Charlie always gave room for these conversations because he believed that the best ideas always rise to the top and that truth always makes itself known. And I think we've seen that during the season as well. And I think people with ears to hear and eyes to see, I think they recognize what truth is. And, you know, and that's just what we stand on as we keep moving forward.

A (40:30)

How much of this hurt you guys? On a personal level?

B (40:37)

You know, it's. It's tough when you have, you know, there's all the. I guess the best way to answer that is people who knew Charlie and people who knew, say, me or knew us. I mean, tpusa Faith has been in the crosshairs of a lot of conversations over the last few months with a lot of outside judgments, but none of that is coming from anybody who ever touched it, who knew about it, who was involved with it, who'd seen it. There's. Our unity hasn't changed within our. In fact, we've doubled churches, went from 4,000 to 8,000. We've widened the denominational reach. You know, I've spent time and, you know, one of the tremendous benefits of my job is I get to spend time with some of the most prolific pastors of our day. And although I'm a pastor myself, I view my role as a servant to the church and to be able to come along guys like. I mean, I don't think they'd mind me mentioning their names. Jensen Franklin, you know, Doug Wilson. Those guys couldn't be further apart in a lot of ideas. But they've both, you know, offered their support, their counsel, people, you know, like Luke Barnett at Dream City, who's just been amazing, you know, I'm visiting with one of the largest churches in the nation tomorrow. I won't say their name because it's our first meeting together, but these guys have already told me over the phone, hey, whatever we can do to help you, we're in. And, you know, you get to spend time with these guys and you recognize that people who are willing to, People who understand, you know, who understood Charlie and understood what he was trying to do, they understand what we're trying to do, and they understand that this is what Charlie want it and they understand why he put the team together and why we're here. And I think that that's been very comforting. I have. As somebody 46 years old, I'm sure you've developed the same skill set. When you're in the business of talking for a living, you can either decide to be a David or a King Saul. You can be a people pleaser or. Or you can be somebody who's living for an audience of one. And look, I'm a recovering people pleaser, so it's like that.

A (43:06)

The Lord told me I need to be more of one, actually, but go ahead.

B (43:10)

Yeah, okay. Fair, fair. You know, there's the little voice that's like locked up in the back room of your heart and you can hear him getting sad, like he's weeping over the comments and those sorts of things. But. But there is this unified just resolve that has taken over me that I just really feel like, is God ordained at this moment in time to just say, you know what? It doesn't matter what anybody out there thinks. I know what the mission is. I know why I'm here. I know why Charlie chose me. I know why ultimately the Lord chose me in this role. And I'm going to do what's required of me. I'm going to. I'm going to, you know, this is. This is my mission. I'm going to see the church united and I'm going to see wokeism stamped out. That's what I'm here for. That's what I do. And we could probably tag on some other false ideologies onto that wokeism thing, and we're going to try to stamp those out too, with God's help. And we are. We are seeing tremendous success at that. Our pastor summits are, bar none, the best. The best. I mean, again, I'm still new. I go to my own pastor summits, and I'm like, where was this 20 years ago when I first started in ministry? Like, this would have been a game changer. For me, had I had an experience like this and to be able to be a part of this, that is literally, we're seeing churches grow, win the culture war in their communities, gain traction, reach Gen Z in their area. I mean, I mean, it's so awesome to see and we're learning from each other and sharpening each other doctrinally because we're willing to have tough conversations and have a coffee over our differences. And it's been really, truly remarkable. And I think that the other departments of Turning Point are having similar experiences in their own area, whether it be college campuses or high schools. Obviously my department is exclusively on the faith side of this, where the rest of the organization, organization is across conservative values. And that's something that might need to be built out a little bit more as far as for the audience. But I think that it's been to have a front row seat at this moment in time, at this place in history. I'm truly grateful and I'm humbled to be here.

A (45:29)

4 minutes left in this segment. At the time we are recording this, there's a lot of controversy right now about who should talk and who should not and should we cancel this person or what are the boundaries, what are not. And, and you know, I, again, I'm hesitant to name any names because I've said a lot of stupid things, Lucas. And there's a realistic chance that by the time this runs, I'm gonna say at least one more, right? And it could, it could very well be you're getting emails like, how in the world are you letting day speak at the nest pastor summit, Right? I mean, do not ask for who the bell tolls, brother. You know, so, but, but in general though, I'm a big believer that we have actually not had a lot of arguments. We were just trolling each other. I actually think we're starting to actually have arguments now. Like, I think these are the kind of conversations that we actually need to have now. And you know, I'm doing a series of, of, of conversations on our show from Oron McIntyre to Jason Whitlock to Tim Pool to, you know, people across Joel Berry. I mean, who's woke, right? And who's not. What does the term even mean? Because I, I think we need to be. These are the very conversations right now that I think are long overdue and worthy of having. But I also think you're free to disagree vehemently with people in the midst of that. At the same time, now you guys, you know, are at the tip of the spear and Trying to navigate this with one of the largest platforms in the entire movement. So how are you guys doing this and handling this moving forward and. And essentially, you know, map this all out for me in about two and a half minutes.

B (46:57)

Yeah, for sure. So, you know, to start with, I think it's important to. To just state the obvious here, but just in case people are new to this, is that Turning Point USA and Charlie was so strategic in how he organized the various endeavors that he took on. And there's Turning Point action. That's a 501C4 that works in that. More in the political action space. Turning Point USA is a 501. That's this cultural initiative. TPUSA Faith is a division and has lived under that historically as a kind of unapologetical Christian division of the broader nonprofit. And so our work within TPSA Faith is different than the work across the entire brand. So Turning Point USA as a brand is big tent. It's giving opportunity for conservatives across the spectrum. And so you'll see people with even different faith backgrounds that will be there. You know, you'll have, you know, Russell Brand and Vivek, and you'll have, you know, Tucker and others that will come into that space. J.D. vance, you know, and of course, a lot of our other contributors across the spectrum, you know, Glenn Beck has done things with us. And so those guys don't agree on every aspect of faith, but they agree on a lot of things within conservatism. But there's room for those. Those individual dialogues within TPSA Faith. It is a smaller tent, right? It is the tent of what I would call Christian orthodoxy. And so there is a focus on primary doctrine. We would define that by the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed. And so it's unabashedly trinitarian. And so the work that we do is very focused on pastors, but even within that, we have differences of opinion. When you put Reformed churches and charismatic churches and Calvary chapels and Baptist churches and Presbyterian churches all in the same room together, you're going to have differences of opinion. And so we allow those things to hash out. So at. @, you know, since this is happening, this is airing after Amfest, you know, there was several debates. I'll talk about two of them that were that Charlie had told the team in advance and he'd actually assigned to me, hey, I want you to work on these for amfest. And so I've been, you know, working on this. We had a hold it right there.

A (49:11)

I'm up against the Break, Lucas. Cause I want to give you time to flesh this out when we come back. Is that okay? Do you mind? Yeah, sure. All right, so we'll pick it up right there on those debates and then let's have a dialogue on where things are with the church writ large and the future with our young men next with Lucas Miles here. Stay tuned.

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All right, we're back with hour two of this special edition of the Steve Dase show here on Blaze tv, radio and podcast. We're not live, but we are new. I'm Steve Dase with Todd erzin and Aaron McIntyre. You're going to hear from them here in the final segment of the program in about 30 minutes. Until then, let us know what you think about what we think via the stevedace.com inbox. You can email us steve dace.com that's D E A C E like us on Facebook, Me, we and Gab. You can follow me at Steveday show on X Instagram and Tick Tock. You can also subscribe to our new YouTube channel at DACE show on YouTube at day show on YouTube. But don't forget, if you're a podcast listener, we'd love it if you'd leave us a five star review. Tens of thousands of you have. Thank you. And of course, we would never ask you to lie. So if you don't like the show, by all means, you know, don't lie. If you kind of like the show, though, we would ask you to exaggerate. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. All right, so we just want one in five star reviews. If you're at a three, maybe just go ahead and embellish at least slightly. I don't think you're in any harm there from a commandment standpoint. There's no commandment against embellishment. Just don't lie. But feel free to embellish on our behalf. We would appreciate it. Many of you have, which is the only rational explanation for how we have received so many five star reviews. So we appreciate each and every one of those embellishments. Feel free to add yours as well and then hit subscribe or if you're on Apple itunes, follow. And that's how you'll make sure that every time we do one of these new episodes, it shows up in your podcast feed every single time. You know, here's the thing. Everybody jumps into a new year with new supplements, new workouts. I do all of that, too. But don't forget the most basic, important thing. Water. Right? Most of your body's made up of water, okay? Even mild dehydration impacts everything from metabolism to energy focus, etc. And you want to make sure you get all that garbage that's typically in your water. Get it out. So you start behind the curve before you even begin. If you don't do that, that's where Cove Pure comes in. They change everything immediately with their Clear Wave technology, certified to remove up to 99.9 of contaminants. Pretty much anything that isn't water, it gets rid of, all right? And it's the purest water you're gonna get, right? And they make it so easy. It's just with the push of a button. And right now you can get 200 off your cove Pure that fits right there on your counter, as you can see with the picture. 200 off for a limited time. If you go to covpure.com Steve C-O-V-E P-U-R E Cove Pure.com Steve, get 200 off for a limited time. And we're talking to my good friend today, Lucas Miles from TP usa Faith and Lucas, where we left off, you guys were discussing, you were discussing your own internal dialogue as an organization in response to all the various controversy that is happening. You know, we're taping this right before Christmas, right before Amfest, the first since Charlie's murder. And it will run at some point in 2026. So at this moment, there's a lot of consternation now about, you know, how much to entertain alternative voices, how much to grow the Overton Window, how much, you know, or, you know, heterodoxy or at least questionable questions can you ask before we cast the out and that kind of stuff. Right, okay. So, of course, you guys are right in the center of this storm with the biggest platform of them all called Amfest. And figuring out, you know, I mean, we want to push boundaries, but we have. We have values. We're trying to conserve at the same time. And, and you mentioned there were a couple of instances that you guys were, were looking at, in, in order to partake in that effort.

B (53:36)

Yeah. You know, one of the things that are actually two of the things that Charlie had kind of issued before September 10th was the idea that at America Fest this year he wanted there to be a debate over Israel, kind of that dialogue about all the different sides of this. And from really a Christian worldview standpoint, like how do we think about these things? You have radical dispensationalism on one side, you have replacement theology on the other side. How do we make sense of this? How do we navigate it? We have churches within TPSA faith that hold to varying degrees of those perspectives. And so how do we find unity where we should, should we stand as a people? The other issue is that a little bit, I think at least right now, a little bit more light hearted, but still important and still culture shifting. And that is the discussion between Catholics and Protestants. Where is unity? We're seeing a lot of young people being drawn to Greek Orthodox or Eastern Orthodox or even Catholic churches. And we're also seeing Protestantism grow. We're seeing evangelical churches explode in the aftermath of Charlie's assassination. And so let's have a debate about that. Let's have a conversation. And so we've brought together some tremendous thinkers to be part of those conversations at America Fest. And we can't wait for that to happen here in really just a few days. And so the interesting thing is when you look at this is that within Christianity we have 2000 years of Christian orthodoxy that has helped paint some of the boundaries for what is inbounds and what is out of bounds. We have church creeds and councils, we have countless commentaries on the Scriptures to be able to guide in these things.

A (55:36)

And so.

B (55:36)

So from a Christian vantage point, although we might not agree about every issue, if somebody holds to the lordship of Jesus Christ and they hold to the authority of the Scriptures, we can at least come to a pretty good conclusion on what is within Orthodoxy and what is on the outside of Orthodoxy. Now there's probably some gray area debates on a few issues, but I think that for the most part there's a lot of agreement there, at least among serious Christians. We don't have as much history as conservatives to be able to work through these things, especially not as maga conservatives, that we've been able to work these things out. And so in many ways we're having sort of the conservative Council of Nicaea. If you will, you know, at this very moment in time.

A (56:31)

So who's getting punched? Who's getting punched and who's the puncher? That's the question.

B (56:37)

That is the question. And maybe by the time this is out, we will. We will know the answer to that question. You know, but. But, you know, it's. It's interesting. I think, that that's an important distinction. Here's the other thing that I think people are not talking about is that we still have despite. You know, I can make an argument that, you know, and I'm the guy who wrote the book Pagan Threat. I'm the guy that has been talking about this post Christian America that we're seeing in many ways, though, within the conservative movement, Christianity is still the dominant zeitgeist ethos worldview assumption that's been driving us. And so the problem, though, with that, although that's a very good thing, the problem, though, with that is that you have individuals within the movement. And this is not pointed at any one person. I think it's a very wide brush I want to paint this with, is that we're still kind of bringing these Christian ideas, but only to the degree that these individuals understand them. And there's a lot of theological discussion being had by people that don't have a lot of theological background.

A (57:45)

I had noticed this. Go ahead. Yes, I had noticed. Go ahead. Yeah.

B (57:48)

And so that puts us in a very interesting moment in time where conversations that used to be almost exclusively held by, you know, seminarians or theonards. Yeah, yeah. Well, established pastors and clergy are now being had by kind of the general public. And everybody who's read one chapter of the Bible thinks that they're now, you know, an expert at being able to speak into these things. And some of these are spiritual conversations, and they need to be had, but they need to be had by. By people that understand, I think, can help guide them. But I think that the way that I would always encourage people is that any issue you have, there's a theological aspect, there's oftentimes a moral aspect to it, and there's usually some sort of practical aspect to it. And we could look at every issue in government and have those in those ways. I think that the moral and the practical side, those are conversations that could be had by anybody, and they can weigh in on that. And the theological side, I'm not preventing people from talking about it that are maybe new to spirituality or maybe not as well studied in the scriptures, but I think that there are what we forget about a Lot of times is There is a 2000 year history that we bring into that where these things have been worked out in such a way. And I think it is the height of arrogance to think that I'm going to come up with a better answer than what 2000 years of Christians have come up with. I need to lean into orthodoxy more when it comes to that standpoint. And I think that that's a part that we would. That's maybe a distinction about tpo, state faith that we would think about rather, that might be different than say the rest of the big ten conservative movement.

A (59:30)

Amen to every word of that. And I think, frankly, this is why we need tradition now before my, my, my Catholic associate here sitting next to me, you know, stands up like that meme of the guy who's the one guy standing up in the courthouse before he does that. Okay. I mean, with a small T. Small T. Okay, Small T. But that I think that if the. Listen, Sola scriptura and solo scriptor are not the same thing, okay. And if, and if, if you don't understand the larger history and context of, okay, the apostles left us these works called the Gospels and their letters, okay, well then what happened for the next 1900 years after they died? And without that kind of context, I think you'll be led to believe in, in a Christianity that is simple, not in the Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so way, which is very profound, yet simple, but a very naive way. And this idea that they just got along on everything, Okay. I mean, one of the first things they had to do was have a council in Jerusalem, as you well know, because they were already arguing about stuff. Okay. I mean, Peter literally writes. Some of the stuff Paul writes is really hard to understand. Okay. You know, I mean, right away, I mean, Paul has falling outs with people. He even mentions them by name at times in his letters. Okay. I mean, I think that if you are, if you don't understand the broader context of then how the succeeding generations had to carry this legacy forward, then you're going to be left with this idea that everybody just had these, these things, concrete things memorized. And if we just stick to this very small list of things, everything will just figure itself out. Well, the planet doesn't stick to those things. The creation doesn't stick to those things. Right? And the kingdom of God is a force multiplier anyway. It's not a stagnant force. In fact, when the apostles just stood there at Jesus ascension, the spirit was like, get going. You know, I mean, what are you doing here? You know, I mean, and so I, I think this is where the small T context of traditional is greatly missing within Protestant circles, Evangelical in particular. I think we've all but jettisoned tradition, and so we don't have anything to go by, any kind of heritage. Well, how did previous generations, when they had these debates, iron these things out? I mean, by the current definition of, quote, Christian Zionism. And I don't know about you, but I'm not even a dispensationalist and I feel compelled to defend the dispensationalists now. It's just become like a buzzword. Lucas, I think a lot of people who don't even know what it really means are just kind of looking for a boogeyman explanation for, or maybe why we spend too much money on Israel, if I'm being honest. Okay, But I, I think that if you don't have that kind of context, well, you're going to think Jonathan Edwards, maybe the, maybe the, maybe the preacher most responsible for the American Revolution, you're going to think, because he also believed that there might be a future reconstitution of the nation of Israel one day, you're going to think, well, that's a Christian Zionist. Jonathan Edwards also repeated literally every anti Semitic trope that came out of the Middle Ages in the Reformation era. I mean, this is where we need that. We need that level of discipleship from organizations like yours, from the churches, to provide that kind of context. Listen, the last thing, since his name already came up, the last thing I want to tell the guy who has the number one show now with Charlie Gahn Tucker is to talk less Christianity. I mean, he gave Lee Strobel maybe the biggest audience he's ever had, and that guy was instrumental in my own conversion. That's the last thing I wanted do. Okay? But I do think without proper church discipleship, without understanding of the historicity of the faith, that you can, you can kind of think that this is all just very A plus B equals C. And it's not. Christianity is a religion of nuance. It's a religion of paradox. I mean, if you don't understand that or you haven't been discipled into that, then you're going to think there's a simplicity here, that, that, that just. That is just not true given the world that we live in.

B (63:19)

You know, so many good things there. And I think that, you know, it's important that as we navigate through these things, that we recognize this idea of primary Doctrine, this is sort of my soapbox. It's, it's really what I, it's, it's one of the main things that I focus on because I think it's one of the most misunderstood aspects. So, you know, when we talk about Christianity in particular, there are, there are certain things that are without question. The Trinity, heaven and hell, the depravity of man, the virgin birth, the return of Christ. Now we can disagree about and have different opinions about when he returns, how he returns, where he returns. We can hash all that out. And there's room for that within Christianity. In fact, we welcome the conversation. But if you don't believe that Jesus is returning, then you're not a Christian. It's a categorical assumption within Christianity that you hold to that position. And so there are these primary doctrines. Salvation by grace through faith, or justification by faith as you hear it called. This is what it means to be Christian based upon the Scriptures. And I agree with you, we do need that kind of lowercase t. I think that's very important. I think it's also important to recognize that on, on some of these secondary issues, these are not like, okay, I read Romans 9 through 11 one time and now I'm an expert on election and foreknowledge. Like, no, hello. Like the top Christian minds in the, in the world for the last 2000 years have debated those things, have changed their minds, have flip flopped on them. Augustine, who is, you know, was, you know, one of my heroes, is, you know, if you read his early stuff, he holds to a free will position. You read his later stuff, he holds to probably what would be defined now as a more deterministic position.

A (65:12)

Calvin loved Augustine. He loved him.

B (65:14)

Yes.

A (65:14)

This is one example. Yes. Yeah.

B (65:16)

And so it's like, you see this back and forth. And so this is why I think it's important we recognize that these things are theological. So you mentioned dispensationalists like, okay, so you have in the spectrum of kind of this eschatological, this end times view, you have dispensationalism on one side. Now, what I would call radical dispensationalism, that if somebody holds to a position that there is a different way for Jews to be saved because of an ethnic preference versus the rest of the world, that is actually error. Okay, but that's not what most dispensationalists believe. They've been painted with that brush, but it's not what they hold to. There's like three people that hold that position. We've all Agreed. They're heretical in it. Dispensationalism is well within Christian orthodoxy in the same way that somebody who holds to replacement theology or an olive branch view or a fulfillment theological perspective, all of that can exist within an eschatological position of a Christian. And we can debate it and we can have fun with it. And none of it should lead you to be anti Semitical. And so this is basic Christianity. But because these conversations are being had by people that don't understand it and that they quickly call one side or another a heretic, if you hold a replacement theology, you're a heretic. No, if you hold a dispensationalism, you're a heretic. Well, church history doesn't agree with either of you. Church history would say that. No, both are within orthodoxy and we can have the debate. You're a heretic if you don't believe Jesus is coming back. You're a heretic if you believe that there is no hell. You're a heretic if you believe that you know that.

A (66:54)

That.

B (66:54)

That Jews are saved because they're Jews and not through the cross of Jesus Christ. You're also a heretic if you, you know, believe in hatred towards a particular ethnic group of people simply because of their ethnicity. You know, and so this is. This is the conversation that we haven't been having that I think that we need to have. And this provides those bumper lanes that keeps us well within Christendom, well within the framework of what is a Western way of thinking and that grace and truth of Scripture. And when I am in my role at TPSA Faith, it's difficult at times because I'm there not as Lucas, the pastor of Influence Church in Granger, Indiana, who has very strong secondary opinions about a lot of issues. I'm there as Lucas, the senior director at TPUSA Faith, who's there to uphold primary doctrine and give room for conversation across secondary and tertiary issues. And I'm not afraid of showing my cards on certain issues, but I'm not gonna give preference to my positions on all of those issues of secondary importance, because I wanna make room for the Reformed and the Charismatic, for the Baptist and the Presbyterian, to be able to come into our movement and understand that we're not an ecclesiastical structure, we're not a church. We are here to support the church and to be a resource for her, but not to replace the work that she's doing across this nation. I think it's very important to, you know, to have that distinction.

A (68:27)

Amen. And you Know our Lord did say it's not by their perfect systemic or systematic theology you will know them. Them. It's by their fruit you will know them. I mean, how can we, how would we know that? I mean, if there's an unbeliever listening to this, Lucas, like, well, how do you guys know who's on your team or not? I'm really confused. Well, you know, here's how we know. Do they exhibit the fruits of Christ likeness in their life? And if they do, it's because they believe in those fundamentals that you just mentioned and therefore they are a believer. I mean that's, I mean, that's what. By their fruit you will know them. That's what it means. I mean, why do you call me Lord if you do not do what I say? Right. You know, so in the final nine minutes we have here, let's talk what was about how to carry on Charlie's legacy with a specific group of people that he was uniquely devoted to and, and uniquely successful in reaching. And that is our young men. And I, I've, I've been saying here recently on our show that we're gonna have a revolution among our young men. That's I think, not debatable now. I think what's still open for debate is what will be the revolution? And I think it's going to be the older men. And you're pushing 50, brother, so you're in. You're getting close to my group now. Okay. I'm 52. All right, so I'm officially old now. All right. But it's going to be us now. They're going to decide, decide that for the younger men. Are they going to be Jacobins who storm Bastilles and then bring out guillotines for a different group of people in their anger and start reigns of terror. It starts out power to the people, but it doesn't have, you know, the Holy Spirit's not there. It's not undergirded in something higher than one will to power versus another. Or are they going to be colonials, no king but Jesus. You know, the kind of revolutions that have acts of Congress sending Geneva Bibles out to every household in the, in the 13 colonies. Right. You know, one it led to a country I think is on its 12th constitution. And the other led to the most successful experiment in humans freedom and flourishing and self governance in the history of our species. And I think it's going to be the young, the older men now and our ability to disciple the younger men. But more importantly to model what it is we're trying to disciple in our own lives to finish. Well, I think we're going to go a long way towards determining how. What kind of revolution we have in our young men. I know that Charlie felt that burden. So how do we carry that on? Particularly guys like you and I who are older. We're, you know, I mean, I'm old, and I was old enough to be Charlie's dad, basically. You know, so how do we carry that on? How do we connect with those young men the way that he did and finish our races? Yeah.

B (71:05)

First off, I want to say I have four years until I'm 50. So I just want to make sure that's very clear for the audience out there. So the, you know, look, Steve, these are all the right questions, and I think that they're very, very important questions. You know, on a personal level, as a pastor at my own church, I've been there 21 years, we are seeing more young men come to the faith than I've ever seen before in, you know, 20 plus years of ministry. And it's exciting. We just had, you know, four or five people baptized this last Sunday, the bulk of them being young men who are getting serious about their faith or, you know, finding a revival in their hearts for the Lord or coming to. To Christ for the first time. I think that first off, we have to look at the problem. Right. And this is not something I think that everybody has recognized or noticed, but I think it's true. And that is the same issues that have created the transgender ideology and cult. And kind of what's been driving the feminization of our society is the same issues that have also been creating kind of this, what I would call an ethnostate bro radicalism that we have seen appear as well. And that should be very offensive to probably both of those groups. And I say that for a reason, because I think we need people to wake up. And that is, if you find yourself in either one of those camps of this hyper masculinity, that's not a biblical masculinity. It's sort of masculinity for masculinity's sake. And I think that it produces many things that you described there. The French Revolution is a great example of that. And I think that what we see on the other side of this feminization that's happened, what's caused this lack of strong father figures or an absence in many cases of fathers in the home, we have things like the COVID aftermath, lockdowns Totalitarianism, that's happened. A lot of these young people, they kind of grew up alone. They grew up in the digital sphere. They didn't grow up in real life. They were living in pretend world. They were living in their mom's basement with headphones and a mask on, trying to figure out what came next. And it either produced it in them, this great disdain for society which has led to a revolt, or it produced in them, it broke them, this submission where they're just going to go, I'll get one booster after booster after booster until you tell me to stop, because I'm just gonna comply at all costs. And both of those are, I think, think in error. Liberty is different than freedom. And liberty produces this desire to say, I'm going to, in some cases, limit my freedom for the sake of giving life to those around me. But also it is not just freedom for freedom's sake. It is freedom for a purpose. And that purpose is that life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness that our nation is really built, built upon. And ultimately that should be glorifying to God on this earth. And I think that there is a crisis among young men. Charlie in many ways, cracked the code to that. But I think that unfortunately there were some that it was just. They didn't quite hear the message fully. It became just another pursuit of a personality. But I think that the majority of these young men that surrounded Charlie, I think they understand the mission. I think they're seeking to carry that out. When Charlie was stolen from this earth, I think God raised up millions of Charlie Kirks on the other side of that. And I am hopeful. I see some of these kids 15, 16, 17 years old that are out there doing what Charlie did. They're going to campuses. They're talking at their high schools or their colleges later on, and they're standing strong and they're preaching the word and they're asking tough questions that are having the dialogues. I'm optimistic about the future. It doesn't mean there's not dragons to slay, and it doesn't mean there's not still obstacles ahead of us. But I think that the seed of the martyr is, or the death of the martyr is the seed of the church. And I think that Charlie embodied that completely. And I think that the church's greatest days are still yet to come. But we have to lead as Christians, Christians in this time. And if we can't find unity and lead, we can't expect the conservative movement to find any unity and lead.

A (75:49)

So you are uniquely qualified to answer this Final question between the Christian Left Woke Jesus. Your bestseller here this year, Pagan Threat, one of the best selling non fiction Christian books of this year. What is. And we got about two minutes left here in our time together. What is the greatest threat for the American church on the horizon that it does not see?

B (76:17)

So I think the obvious threats out there are the rise of Islam in America. And I think that a lot of people see that. My concern though is that we can't focus on it because of all the other noise and distractions that have happened that are finding fights that shouldn't even need to be being had. And so it's like having a giant grizzly bear chasing after you or running straight for you. But you also walked into a beehive and you're swatting the bees away and you can't get them off of you and you're focused on the bees when you're about ready to be lights out by this grizzly bear. That's the condition that I think that we're in right now, now. And as hard as it is, we have to actually take our focus off of those minor annoying distractions in order to really recognize some of the major issues that are before us right now. I think Islam is one of them. I think the potential shipwrecking of some young men into, you know, more radical ideas I think is a real concern. I don't think it's super prevalent or as prevalent as the Internet would like to make you think it is within sound churches, but I think that we have to activate those who are sound to be able to speak out and really distinguish between these ideas. I think that paganism is something that is also, and I don't just mean people practicing tarot cards or witchcraft after something like that, but just an attempt to supplant the Christian worldview to remove that Christian assumption out of the American people's mindset so that Marxism or some other ism can be introduced because liberty only works for a Christian populace. And I think that we have to keep this nation rooted in biblical truth if we want the American experiment to continue to flourish the way that I think we all truly desire. And so I think that those are a few of the things people being distracted about, you know, the flavor of the week that the Internet and X is going to throw at you to comment on and chase after. These are bees swarming around that are keeping us, I think, away from the real issue.

A (78:45)

Thank you, brother. Look forward to seeing you here soon. Love you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Take care. We'll come back. Todd and Aaron, we'll get your thoughts here in a moment. The Steve Day Show First Conduit clothing is not just cool, casual clothing that looks great, feels great, but it's also mission driven. In fact, it's not. It's after not just great clothing, but a great commission. All right, they've got hundreds of ESV Bibles right now. They want to hand out with an order for free so you can maybe then hand them out to people that don't have the word of God yet so they can get the most precious thing, the only perfect thing on the earth, the word of God. All right, here's how they'll do that. They'll cover free shipping if you use my code, conduitclothing.com go there, check out their, their menu, library catalog, whatever you want to call it. A lot of cool stuff, a lot of cool hoodies, T shirts and more. Maybe you see Aaron wearing his hoodie. I wore mine here last week. C-O-N--U-I-T for conduit as in conduit for Christ. ConduitClothing.com use the code Steve for free shipping. Get that ESV Bible. Hand that out to somebody that needs the word of God. Conduitclothing.com code Steve. All right, back here on the Steve Day Show. And now it's the time when we talk about our special guests behind their backs. Normally, I let you guys just say let it rip, but Lucas is my man. So let it rip, but gently. But let's take a second here before we jump back into that conversation and talk about a conference I cannot wait to speak at here coming up in June, the Last Stand, hosted by my buddy Seth Krueber with Frank Turek, our colleague Ali Beth Stuckey, Victor marks, Pastor Rob McCoy, Abby Johnson and more. Plus, we're going to see the premiere of Seth's latest film called the Last Stand. All right. Gonna take place June 5th and 6th in Inglewood, Colorado, just outside of Denver, part of the Last Stand Festival. But Steve, you told you swore you'd never do Denver TSA again. And I've kept that vow for about a decade. But I, I think the work that Seth, his organization is doing is so important, I think this moment for our country so important that I'm willing to literally risk life and limb in the Denver TSA line to go back and be a part of this event. You want to be a part of it as well? Go to the Last Stand.com thelastand.com use the promo code STEVE for 15 off your ticket promo code STEVE@the Last Stand.com you guys thoughts on the conversation we just heard from Lucas Miles for the last 90 minutes. Director of TP USA Faith. Todd, I'll start with you. What do you think?

D (81:33)

Well, getting to hear him speak at length for the first time. He clearly has an understanding that in order to go forward we do need to go back and he's absolutely right about that. Steve, you've let me in. I don't know any details, but you and he have had active discussions that jive with my idea about a Protestant Council of Nicaea, Council of Trent is required. And without ever teeing that up specifically, he gets it. Talking about all the various versions of Protestant ism that are out there that can coexist together if we A make the main thing the main thing and then respect each other enough B to have really robust. He even called them fun conversations about all the other stuff that we people that agree with almost everything here disagree with here. Here's the thing about Protestantism and there's a lot of Protestants who, who regularly point out this nation, America was founded as a Protestant nation. It must remain a Protestant nation. Hey, okay, amen to that. But in order for that to happen again to go forward that way, we need to go back and talk about that tradition you talked about because let's face it, when this country was founded, you are basically a century, just a hundred years in terms of history. A drop in the bucket from the Protestant Reformation. It look at the sacrifices that were made by the Puritans to come over here to get across that ocean, just that. Yet within a decade they were already having the kinds of conversations where Lucas, who very much reminds you as the John Winthrop of the conversation trying to keep the senator hold in charity. We can endure a lot but it within 10 years, less than 10 years, people that endured all that to come over and find a no home were engaged in the same kind of infighting then caused them to say oh yeah, Roger Williams and Hutchinson, you need to move to that state over there because this is crazy talk and we're not just we're not going to have it. Steve, you've all you've actively pointed out that the American Revolution couldn't have happened with the Great Awakening. Well that's still from 1630. We're talking more than 100 years yet again. So this is a cycle that Protestantism keeps going through and it is time after several centuries of this all ultimate leading up to quite frankly the paganism that Lucas was talking about. The moment we were in, where we're at, we're on a precipice to go back, to reflect on all of it, to weigh and measure all of it and see what you can get out of it, because that's the one thing that Protestantism almost by definition rejects. But the paradox of that is, as long as it does that, it seems like it can't survive to be the America that you say was founded by Protestants.

A (85:07)

I think that's a perfectly fair criticism. At the very least, even if you want to completely disown the Romanist here, we've at least got 600 years of tradition on our own.

D (85:15)

We could go now.

A (85:15)

You do look at.

D (85:16)

Yes.

A (85:16)

Yeah, we do.

D (85:17)

But. Yeah, you have to want to.

A (85:19)

Yeah.

D (85:19)

And your point? You. It's like, reflexive. Like, there's that. And he seems to get it. The person that reads a couple chapters of Romans is all of a sudden like scorched earth on. In the X verse. And.

A (85:30)

Yes. Claiming who I am, the bishop God has been waiting for. Yes, yes.

D (85:34)

And he's just like, I mean, trust me, they got a little warm in my heart there. It's like, hey, we need a little authority here. Yeah. And so I just. Just having heard about him, having heard about Charlie, and, you know, was very much looking forward to the chance, what would have been my first chance to meet Charlie here at Amerifest. Listen, I. I'm rooting as a Catholic for the conversation that we just had to be taken nationwide because there's Jesus in it, and if there's Jesus in it, it. That's more than enough.

A (86:12)

Amen. Amen.

C (86:13)

Aaron, I've often talked about how

A (86:20)

the

C (86:20)

vocation of being a pastor, I do not envy pastors at all. And I'm talking about the pastors who are legitimately trying to feed their sheep, shoot the wolves. Metaphorically, of course, rhetorically, of course, like spiritually, in their congregations. And I've talked about it in this sense, if you are a pastor even at what we would classify as at a good church, it's a hospital for sinners. You know, all of the situations likely going on in your church, and you yourself are still a human being called by God to this vocation, to this position, but you're still a human being, and you got to walk into the sanctuary every Sunday morning, and you're just about to preach the word of God while you're probably maybe dealing with your own issues, you know, your own ego or pride or whatever your sin du jour. Is, or whatever your burden is to bear, you're dealing with that yourself. And you look out across the congregation, your flock that God has entrusted to you, and you say that person's a gossiper, that person is unfaithful, that person has issues with pride, that person fill in the blank. You know all this stuff because you're a pastor yourself and you have to die to yourself daily even to have some level or manner of love for your own flock. And I'm sure I'm oversimplifying or maybe I'm even exaggerating things, and maybe it's not as bad as I'm characterizing it to be if you're a pastor listening to this. But all I'm saying that is to underscore how difficult the role vocation of pastor can be, especially if you're trying to do it the way that it's spelled out for you in Scripture. Now imagine trying to be a pastor of pastors, because that's kind of the view that I get of TPUSA faith, is that they're trying to be a support to all these. And you're doing this in a theologic where there's theological viewpoint points that in some ways, as far as the east is from the west, but that's, you know, again, that's an exaggeration. But I'm saying that for effect. And hats off to Lucas Miles for stepping into this void and for TPUSA faith for trying to fill that void, because it is a void and it's so desperately needed. But ultimately, the bottom line, all of this conversation, what Charlie Kirk meant, what he still means, the young men, all of these theological differences, the bottom line is one of the last things that he said there. We can't have liberty if we're not a Christian people, a moral and religious people. We just can't. It's incompatible in some ways. The bottom line at the granular level is you're going to have a society that's either based on sacrifice or incentive or disincentive. More often than not. In there, you can have a functioning society built on incentive. It's going to be harder and harder to pass on the positive incentives and the negative disincentives if it's not based in or grounded in anything more than incentivizing or disincentivizing. But you can in theory have a society that, that functions on incentive. You're not going to have true liberty, though, that supersedes one generation or multiple generations without sacrifice. You're just not just one Tiny example. You know, there's ongoing discussions, ongoing. I mean, we see this all year round. Oh, look at this locale across the seas. Look how dirty and pitiful and, and how much trash there is in their waterways. And there's just filth and vermin everywhere. If you're living in a society that either or only disincentivizes just a simple act of throwing away trash, finding a place for it to be thrown away, what is the incentive if there's no law? What is the incentive if there's no law, no law at all, what's the incentive of just going and finding a trash can and throwing a wrapper away? There's no incentive whatsoever. There's no. There's just not. Now, if you come from a biblical worldview, just a simple facet, hey, this is God's creation. He's entrusted it to me. I also know that eventually this trash is going to end up somewhere else. Might be somebody else's problem. You're thinking about people other than your own, other than your own momentary, let's just call it, burden of hiding a trash can. You see what I'm saying here? You can have a functioning society. You know, Japan does it. There's certain European countries that seemingly, you know, kind of still have incentives that are right and disincentives that are right as well. But ultimately something that's going to supersede that is sacrifice. And I would wager that that only comes from a biblical and Christian worldview. And that's going to be the main battle here. Are we going to be a people of sacrifice, not just for our contemporaries, but for our progeny? Or are we just going to revert back to our base nature? Because right now what we have in our country is neither incentive nor sacrifice. We're kind of in this mushy middle where we're trying to figure it out. And more often than not, yeah, you can have a functioning society built on incentives or disincentives, but that almost always turns into tyranny. That's just. Something's got to fill the void. Something's got to fill the void. So, fascinating conversation, but I think the way that he ended it there or towards the end, that you're just not going to have true liberty without a Christian worldview or framework. I just think that that's kind of the end and the beginning of this meta argument that we're having in this country.

A (92:42)

I think we should take a couple minutes and explain why that's the case. Because without Christianity, what is the limiting principle now there will be one. Something will always rule or someone will always rule. Something will always be worshiped. So there will be some form of limiting principle, right? I mean, you know, for much of human history the limiting principle of a country was its king and what he was willing to put up with or not. That was the limiting principle. So there will be one. Okay, but without Christianity, what is the limiting principle? And does it have the ideal of love your neighbor as you love yourself? Does it have the ideal that God is not a respecter of persons?

C (93:21)

Right.

A (93:21)

The government for the by the consent of the governed is a restatement of God is not a respecter of persons. Meaning that hell and heaven are for both the people calling the shots and those that are fulfilling them just the same. There's all kind of aristocrats in hell and there's all kinds of serfs and slaves in heaven and there's just, there's just never been another moral framework on this earth that provides this kind of distinction for a fair, just society, which is what you have to have if you're going to have a self governing society. And that's the reason why without. This cannot possibly work without Christianity or the, the line over the years that Todd, you have oft quoted from John Adams that this is a constitution only for a moral and religious people. That's what this means. Outside of the paradoxes and nuances provided by Christianity, there, there can be, there cannot be a self sustaining, self governing civilization. It's not possible because without the moral frameworks of Christianity that can only be lived by actually being Christian because you also. That's the other paradox. God reveals this, this framework to the world through his Word. But if you don't have him, the hope of glory, Christ in you, you can't do this on your own. If you could, there wouldn't have to be a cross. And it's supposed to be the recognition that you can't do this on your own that leads to the admission that you need Christ. And then when enough people, a critical mass of people make that admission, then you have a society that is self sustaining in a self governing way. But without that, you don't thoughts on that before we get out of here?

D (95:04)

Well, Lucas did allude to it. He talked about Christianity and I don't remember the context of the question he was answering, but he said it, it is still kind of the default ethic of us as a people, but it's not really a functioning one. It's, it's basically just nostalgia. So we're we're stuck. We're not totally far gone. It's all still right there, but it's just. It's dusty. And we kind of put it up on a shelf at Christmas and then we put it away in the closet again, like. Like it's a Christmas ornament.

A (95:39)

Right?

D (95:40)

When the. The whole point of the season of Christmas and of Easter is to jumpstart what you are supposed to be doing. Every day is supposed to be Christmas, Every day is supposed to be Easter. And that's the tension of where we are at right now. We have a big choice to make right now. Are we going to take it out of the closet for good or is all lost because we simply have mocked God one too many times?

A (96:11)

Aaron, you get the last word.

C (96:12)

Yeah, amen to that. And I think the next. Well, okay, what do we do here? We can have debates about tactics. We can have debates. And there are some tactics, I think, that are profitable in terms of actually seeing results, not just making money. There are some tactics I believe are unprofitable or even negative profits. Maybe that's what unprofitable means. But at the end of the day, I think this is going to be incumbent on all of us. If you have the calling of the Holy Spirit in your life, which if you are a believer, that is all of us, to do something, do something. Maybe that's just, maybe, maybe you're at the very beginning of your walk that's just reading your Bible every single day, committing to that. Maybe that's acts of service. Maybe that's going to. You just make it the posture of your life to do something. Otherwise, things are going to be done to you in short order.

A (97:19)

Well, I really enjoyed this one. And again, who knows when this will run? But again, something, as we typically say, something tells me it's going to run right at the time it's supposed to run. Thank you guys so much for tuning in to this special Evergreen edition. And hopefully you enjoyed it as well. Back at it again the next time right here on Blaze TV, radio and podcast. Until then, go hard. Romans 8:28.