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- [00:02]
Leslie McSpadden
Hi, I'm Megan, and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcast. Hi, everyone.
- [00:38]
David Duchovny
I'm David Duchovny.
- [00:39]
Leslie McSpadden
Join me on my podcast, Fail Better, where we use failure as a lens to reflect on the past and analyze the current moment. I speak with makers and performers like Rob Lowe, Rosie o' Donnell, and Kenya Barris, as well as thinkers like Kara Swisher and Nate Silver to understand how.
- [00:56]
David Duchovny
Both personal setbacks and larger forces impact our world.
- [01:00]
Leslie McSpadden
Listen to Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:18]
David Duchovny
And my dreams. I don't really have dreams. The last time I had a dream, I can't even tell you, because to me, dreams are things that you, you know, you really want to happen, and you fantasize about them coming true. I don't know if I've had any dreams in the last 10 years, to be honest. You know, I'm just kind of, like, in survival mode. But sad to say, like, I don't have any dreams.
- [01:51]
Leslie McSpadden
When Leslie McSpadden saw her son, Michael Brown, motionless under a white sheet, her whole life changed. Her days of dreaming came to an end.
- [02:03]
David Duchovny
Seeing a life taken too soon, and, man, that just really did something to me, you know? So I'd rather be supportive of my children's dreams. I just want everything to be great for them. That's it. Like, God used me as a vessel for these children, and I'm just trying to make everything great for them. Was that my dream? Was my Diana my nightmare? Yeah. Yeah.
- [02:41]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie lives with the reality of that nightmare every day. In the days, weeks, and months after her firstborn was murdered, Leslie was plunged into deep grief, going through indescribable pain, something most people endure in private. But in the years since 2014, she's shown the world another side. What it looks like to rebuild and heal. What it looks like to step into purpose, to uplift the aspirations of her kids and so many others. And what it looks like to slowly learn to dream again. From Lemonada Media and Campaign zero, you're listening to Still My Baby. For Leslie, the journey through grief is long and seemingly Unchanging. Sometimes she feels stuck in it. But people close to her see something else. They see someone who's endured, who's regained her strength to uplift others. They see a fighter. It's like the phoenix rising from the ashes because she took on this fight and she's still going to this day fighting to get justice for Michael.
- [03:58]
David Duchovny
I've told her I'm proud of the woman that she's become now. And I know as knowing her isn't my cousin, she.
- [04:05]
Leslie McSpadden
She'll never give up the fight ever in life. And it's true. With all her unanswered questions about why her son was murdered, Leslie continues to fight even after the cameras had left and the protests faded. In this final episode, we journey through the long road of rebuilding and Leslie's unrelenting resilience. We'll explore legacy healing and the many ways Leslie channels her pain and into purpose. More than 10 years after Mike Mike's murder, Leslie McSpadden's grief remains heavy and real. The world may have moved on, but for Leslie and her family, the gaping hole, the loss, the missing link to the chain is always felt.
- [04:54]
David Duchovny
I'm not going to say much has changed. I still cannot listen to a recording of his voice. I'm not ready for that. I still have not opened the boxes with his belongings in has gotten maybe a little easier to talk about without crying all over the place. Although I still get emotional, and I know you can hear it.
- [05:24]
Leslie McSpadden
The grief is ever present and touches every area of Leslie's life. She's not as social as she once was, and some friends just don't get it.
- [05:35]
David Duchovny
I've even had one of my friends to say to me, you still feeling like that? And I'm like, yeah, I do. And I don't know when I not feel like this, hey, I wish it had never happened, so I never would have had to feel like this. But, yeah, I've had a friend that say that to me before. Like, well, how long you gonna feel like that? I don't know. I don't know.
- [06:06]
Leslie McSpadden
Mementos of her son's life surround her. In her garage at home sits a very large reminder of Mike, a gray 2005 Chevy Equinox.
- [06:16]
David Duchovny
Mike was learning how to drive, and he wanted to learn how to drive that car in particular. I just remember one day someone needed to get out of the driveway, and I think I was parked behind him, and I said, move the car. And when I came outside, he had went out, went around the corner, and I'm like, where is he at? I got so nervous, like, oh, Lord. But I didn't know that he knew how to drive.
- [06:40]
Leslie McSpadden
Mike had planned to get his driver's license. He had taken a few driving lessons, but he was killed before he could reach that goal. He had a learner's permit, which Leslie keeps in her purse.
- [06:53]
David Duchovny
And I had a picture of Mike in the car with the biggest smile on his face. But I took it out last year because the car, it's been sitting there for years, over 10 years. And it had a lot of cobwebs and stuff in it. And so I took the picture of Mike out and I put it upstairs in a frame. But I kept the car for sentimental reasons.
- [07:16]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie used to say she'd get the car fixed, but she knows she won't because she doesn't actually want someone else to drive it. Sometimes she thinks she'll be able to bring herself to get rid of it one day.
- [07:28]
David Duchovny
But check with me, in 10 years, it'll probably still be sitting out there.
- [07:33]
Leslie McSpadden
What's also in the garage? Actual concrete pieces of Canfield Drive where Mike's body lay for four and a half hours after Ferguson police officer.
- [07:44]
David Duchovny
Yeah.
- [07:44]
Leslie McSpadden
Darren Wilson shot and killed him. Shortly after the tragedy, a memorial for Mike Brown grew in that spot. People left stuffed animals, candles, flowers, balloons, and baseball caps. It was a constant reminder of what happened. A year later, the memorial was still there, and the city requested that it be removed as part of a plan to repave that section of the street. The Ferguson mayor at the time said in a statement that it was, quote, important that the community moves forward. Leslie saw the repaving as an attempt to erase what happened there. She decided, though, if it was going to happen, she wanted those pieces of concrete.
- [08:30]
David Duchovny
Don't know what I'm gonna do with it, but my son's blood was in this concrete, and you cannot cover up what happened here. We will never forget what happened here. And if you think that because you put down it changes the history of time, it does not.
- [08:46]
Leslie McSpadden
Elsewhere in the garage, Leslie has those boxes of Mike's belongings, what he wore and had with him when the police killed him.
- [08:55]
David Duchovny
When it was time to go get Mike's belongings, I was the only one who showed up to the courthouse. So I have everything that he had on that day, everything that was in the street that day, and I have not opened those boxes.
- [09:07]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie says she has no intention of ever opening them.
- [09:11]
David Duchovny
I know what's in there. I'll let someone else look at it, but I don't have any desire to look at it. I only went because it belongs to him.
- [09:22]
Leslie McSpadden
When she picked them up, she says she was made to wait a very long time. And the person who handed them over smiled to her. It felt like adding insult to injury. But showing up at that courthouse to pick up Mike's belongings was a way to face her fear and. And stand up for her son.
- [09:40]
David Duchovny
I am gonna show my face and let you know, like, yeah, that's my son, and I still love him, and I' ma always love him, and there is nothing you can tell me that he did so wrong that day to deserve what happened to him. So, yeah, I'm gonna show up and get his belongings.
- [09:58]
Leslie McSpadden
Other pieces of Mike's life also remain. The good times, the memories, the laughs. Those are cherished. And though the grief doesn't disappear, Leslie and her family try their hardest to focus on the good.
- [10:13]
David Duchovny
We talk about what we know, and that's the good of it. Let's just focus on the good, the happy times and the moments when we were all together.
- [10:28]
Leslie McSpadden
Like the time Mike went to Six Flags with his little brother Andrew.
- [10:32]
David Duchovny
It was just a boy scouts trip. And me and me and Mike went. And you needed a chaperone, not needing one. But they were asking, you know, they always asking. I said, mike, Mike, you wanna go on this trip with your brother? And I was so surprised. He was like, yeah, it was hilarious. I'll never forget it. You got this big old dude right here, man, six foot four, six foot five. We get on the roller coasters of Joker that swing back and forth and go real high. You know, we all the way up here, and I'm laughing at him. He's like, this not funn. I'm just looking, like, laughing at him like, you older than me, you all big and you scared, and you just a little video of me over here just cracking up.
- [11:12]
Leslie McSpadden
It's easy for good memories to get overshadowed, though. Everyday things that many take for granted, like scrolling through social media, are potential emotional landmines for Leslie and her family.
- [11:23]
David Duchovny
Can you imagine them just casually scrolling on social media and they see their brother? How do I prepare them for that? Well, best as I can, you know, think about the family and how many times this image or this video gets looped and shared and they have to see this. They could be actually having a great day. Maybe one day that they don't feel the grief and pain of losing their loved one. And, hey, I want to just jump on social media for a laugh or see, and there goes that image. You Would not like that if that was your family member.
- [12:05]
Leslie McSpadden
Grief changes parenting. Aside from being a father figure to Daisia, Andre, and Jazzy, Leslie's husband Lewis has three of his own kids, two boys and a girl. Safety becomes the most important thing, because God forbid the unimaginable happens again, you become more. More worried about them, more concerned, you.
- [12:30]
David Duchovny
Know, even when they're not around, you.
- [12:31]
Leslie McSpadden
Just hope that you don't want to get that phone call ever again. You just have to be there more and make sure that you can see.
- [12:37]
David Duchovny
Them every day and every night and talk to them every day and every.
- [12:40]
Leslie McSpadden
Night and know that they are good.
- [12:42]
David Duchovny
Every day and every night because you do not want to get that phone call. You do not.
- [12:48]
Leslie McSpadden
Lewis has been Leslie's partner for 15 years. He's part of her circle of support. Though thousands of people all over the world rallied behind Leslie and her family, she relies on a small number of people who've been with her through it all, people she can fully trust. Since Mike was killed, and even before that, he's remained a steadfast and consistent source of strength in Leslie's life.
- [13:14]
David Duchovny
Through the sadness and the trauma and the pain and the ups and downs and just living in an uncertain world, when you have someone that is your equal in a balance to you, you never really feel anything else other than that. So although it was sad times and he cried, I cried, I cried, I cried, I cried, he cried, I cried. We never lost that joy because Lewis is this. He has this personality that doesn't really go dark or sad. He may get a little quiet, but when he open his mouth, his eyes open wide and you gonna be like, ah. You know, he has this just natural joy about him, although he goes through things as well. And that's what I really like about him.
- [14:03]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie has even tried to push Lewis away, afraid she'll never be the same person she was when they first met and got married.
- [14:11]
David Duchovny
When everything happened in the beginning, I told my husband, like, I. I know I'm not going to be the same person. My life has changed, and that's not who you married. And you should just go on, you know, go on with your life. But that turkey wouldn't leave. So, you know, whatever it is that I'm going through, he just let me know right then and there, he's going to go through it with me.
- [14:37]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie has also been able to rely on her dear friend Ms. Quinn for support. Ms. Quinn is a hairdresser and has been doing Leslie's hair for about 30 years. Ever since she was pregnant with Mike. Mike. I've done her hair throughout all her pregnancies.
- [14:51]
David Duchovny
So once she started getting her hair done, she's always been regular. Always. You know, always. It wasn't no skip here, skip there.
- [15:01]
Leslie McSpadden
She's always been about her hair.
- [15:04]
David Duchovny
Always, always.
- [15:06]
Leslie McSpadden
Ms. Quinn loves all her clients, but her relationship with Leslie is special and unique. We've always had our own separate bond.
- [15:15]
David Duchovny
Everybody used to say, well, you do.
- [15:16]
Leslie McSpadden
Her hair better than you do my hair.
- [15:18]
David Duchovny
You know, that's what our friends and our relatives used to say.
- [15:21]
Leslie McSpadden
And it wasn't that.
- [15:22]
David Duchovny
I just felt, like the energy. We just clicked, like we weren't expecting this.
- [15:30]
Leslie McSpadden
She's been with Leslie through it all, the good, the bad, and the unimaginable.
- [15:36]
David Duchovny
Right after it happened, she had to come get her hair done, and I brought in the salon when nobody was there to do her hair. And we didn't say much because there was nothing that really needed to be said. You know, it was understood. I mean, it wouldn't be nothing for her to sit in a chair in tears, just start rolling down her face. I mean, we have cried so many times.
- [16:02]
Leslie McSpadden
Ms. Quinn remained loyal to Leslie, altering her schedule so Leslie could come in, feel comfortable, and not have to face the public. Ms. Quinn even turned away business to protect Leslie.
- [16:14]
David Duchovny
A couple of people did find out who I was and wanted to start coming, and I told them, no, you're.
- [16:21]
Leslie McSpadden
Not just getting ready to come in.
- [16:22]
David Duchovny
Here to be entertained or get whatever information you want to. That was just me. And also out of the love I had for Leslie, you're not getting ready.
- [16:34]
Leslie McSpadden
To come invade her space like that. And because of these efforts, Ms. Quinn's Beauty Shop remains a place of refuge for Leslie, a place to feel safe.
- [16:44]
David Duchovny
I would walk in, and sometimes there would be people with flowers for me because they knew that I was coming or wanting to know the next time I'll be there so that they can bring me something. I felt the protection when I walked in there from even those people that I probably never even had a conversation with. I just felt protected in that space, you know, like, you always, okay, when you come in here, don't. You don't have to worry.
- [17:09]
Leslie McSpadden
You know, what a gift for Leslie to feel protected and safe and to have family and close friends she could rely on. Leslie needed the space and support to rebuild her life and feel strong again and to remind herself what it feels like to dream. After the break, we'll hear about how she felt strong enough to accomplish something she had been dreaming of for 21 years. Hey, I'm Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls.
- [17:43]
David Duchovny
Who Code and Moms First.
- [17:44]
Leslie McSpadden
I consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. So why is it that in midlife, as I'm about to turn 50, I feel so stuck? Join me as I try to find the answer on my so called Midlife from Lemonada Media. I talk to experts and extraordinary guests about divorce, exercise, menopause, sex, drugs, and more to understand what we're going through and how to make the most of it. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:10]
David Duchovny
I'm Hasan Minhaj and I have been lying to you. I only pretended to be a comedian so I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists are way too afraid to ask. People like Senator Elizabeth Warren. Is America too dumb for democracy?
- [18:28]
Leslie McSpadden
Outrageous parenting expert Dr. Becky how do.
- [18:32]
David Duchovny
You skip consequences without raising a psychopath?
- [18:35]
Leslie McSpadden
That's a good question.
- [18:36]
David Duchovny
Listen to Hasan Minhaj doesn't know from lemonada Media. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:43]
Leslie McSpadden
Ever since Mike Mike was killed, Leslie has chosen to turn her pain into purpose and her grief into perseverance. In 2017, she did something that fulfilled a promise she made to Mike, but also one she made to herself. She graduated from high school. It was through an alternative program for adults at Jennings High School, where her daughter Daja was a senior.
- [19:04]
David Duchovny
Let me tell you this, going back to school after 21 years to learn sixth grade algebra is hard. That is hard work. And at the time, my son was in junior high school, so he was helping me with some of that. And I kept all of those worksheets for any woman, any man, anybody, you want to go back to school, I got some, some worksheets for you that'll help you out. Brother sister.
- [19:28]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie says her teacher was so patient and helpful.
- [19:31]
David Duchovny
This lady would be at baseball games with her family, helping me do algebra, sending me a text on a notebook saying, this is how you do it. Alpha always, always loved this woman.
- [19:44]
Leslie McSpadden
When Leslie first took the test to graduate, she didn't pass. And Leslie almost gave up.
- [19:50]
David Duchovny
I was like, I'm quit. That's it, that's over. I don't want to do it. She had some type of nut from a tree that she kept with her, and she said she kept it for good luck. And she said, I'm going to give it to you. She said, I want you to have it. And I said, okay. So I went and took the test again. And I remember sitting at the computer in the computer lab. I was looking at the screen, and it was one question in particular I just was not sure about. And my time was blinking because it had got down. And you know what? It was on 44 seconds.
- [20:26]
Leslie McSpadden
44, 44. That's how many minutes it took Leslie to deliver Mike. Mike when he was born. It was a sign.
- [20:36]
David Duchovny
When I noticed my time was down, I looked up at the computer screen. I'm like, uh, no. I said, nah, I wanna change it. I just don't think it's right. And I changed it. And when I looked back at the time, I was down to 14 seconds. I said, I gotta submit it. Submit. Boom. I got an eight. That's all you needed. And the lady, she's watching, you know, they're monitoring you. And she came in and she said, you passed. You did. She was so happy for me. With me. I was like, yeah, girl. I thought I was talking to one of my. And I said, oh, yeah, you right, girl. I did that. I was so. I couldn't believe it.
- [21:15]
Leslie McSpadden
Just as Leslie was taking in the good news, her phone rang. It was her teacher. But Leslie didn't answer the phone. Instead, she went to the grocery store.
- [21:25]
David Duchovny
I got that lady a bouquet of not just roses, but of little shot bottles. Cause I knew I had worked her nerves. And she was calling and calling. Cause she knew the test was over. She's like, where is she? So I now went back to the. The schools, to the classroom. And the receptionist let me in, and she saw me with these gifts, and so she knew I passed too. And I was like, shh.
- [21:43]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie waited in the lobby for her teacher, gifts in hand.
- [21:47]
David Duchovny
And she came out the classroom, and she said, I knew it was you. And her and the principal and I. It was like three friends. We just. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And once again, I just felt so protected and so respected and congratulated, you know, I was just like, thank you. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for working with me and not giving up on me and creating this space for me. Jennings School district did that for me. And then they went above and beyond by getting me a cap and gown.
- [22:20]
Leslie McSpadden
But Leslie didn't want to take attention away from the high school seniors, including her daughter, Deja. So she asked Deja for her blessing to be in the ceremony.
- [22:28]
David Duchovny
I said, are you okay? Cause I'm never trying to steal your moment. Was she okay? I'mma show you a picture. We dressed alike and everything, and they allowed me to present her with her diploma when she walked the stage. So it Was a very, very nice moment, a very celebratory moment.
- [22:48]
Leslie McSpadden
Her parents were at graduation and got to see Leslie and Daisia in their bright red caps and gowns and matching black and white striped outfits underneath. Big Mike was also there and even.
- [22:59]
David Duchovny
Asked me for a hug because he also knew that when we had Michael, that I wanted to graduate. You know, I'm gonna have the baby, but I gotta go back to school and graduate. So he saw me working hard to do that. So I appreciate him for his, you know, congratulations during that time, and thank you, Jenny. School district.
- [23:24]
Leslie McSpadden
A year later, in 2018, Leslie announced she was running for city council in Ferguson, in the very community where Mike was shot and killed. Leslie.
- [23:33]
David Duchovny
Leslie. Leslie.
- [23:35]
Leslie McSpadden
Run.
- [23:36]
David Duchovny
Leslie, run.
- [23:37]
Leslie McSpadden
She wanted the neighborhood to know that she wasn't afraid, that she wanted to return to the community that her son's murder had so profoundly changed.
- [23:46]
David Duchovny
I'm not here to work for the people in the building. I'm here to work for you, and I'm here to inform you of what's going on in the inside, and let's work together and change Ferguson.
- [24:02]
Leslie McSpadden
Though in order to run, she had to be a resident.
- [24:06]
David Duchovny
So I went and bought a property just to get on a ballot, and I went out and knocked doors over 3,000 doors to get signatures, and I made the ballot.
- [24:18]
Leslie McSpadden
In footage of her announcement in 2018, almost four years after Mike was shot and killed, she said seeing Mike lying under that sheet broke her.
- [24:29]
David Duchovny
Brought me down to my knees and made me feel crippled, as if I could do nothing else anymore from that moment. But as time went on and I stayed surrounded by support and motivational people who knew what happened was wrong and didn't give up the fight, I learned to walk again, and this is one of my first steps running for Ferguson city council.
- [24:59]
Leslie McSpadden
Learning to walk again was crucial to Leslie's journey to rebuild. And though she didn't win a seat on the city council, Leslie acknowledges that it took a lot of courage on her part and just to run, because.
- [25:11]
David Duchovny
There were people that came to their doors that didn't have nice things to say, you know, but you gotta face your fears, and that's what I did.
- [25:21]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie has no plans to rerun. She sold that house in Ferguson. But it was an important step, a needed step out of grief and into purpose.
- [25:32]
David Duchovny
There's other ways for me to make an impact and to reach back to my community and let them know that I'm still thinking about you and I still appreciate you, and however I could. Thank you. You know, I'm still working on things. I'm still around.
- [25:46]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie is more than around. She is changing lives through her work with the Michael O. D Brown We Love Our Sons and Daughters foundation, which she founded in 2015. It was a way for Leslie to work through some of the grief and loneliness and a way to handle the contradicting demands that had been thrust on her. In one moment, she was being crowned a mother of the movement. In the next, she was accused of not doing enough to move things forward. The foundation gives her something to do with the weight she often feels.
- [26:15]
David Duchovny
It's all about Mike. Everything the foundation is built on is about Mike. That's the only reason why I wanted to do it, so that I could feel like I could, me personally, have the feeling of still, you know, keeping my son's memory alive and creating his legacy.
- [26:37]
Leslie McSpadden
The work is deeply rooted in Mike's life or the life he didn't get to lead. Like the memorial scholarship program they created for high school seniors in St. Louis. It's for students like Mike who might have a GPA of 2.5, not a 4.0, who may have an IEP like Mike did, whose gifts may not be obvious on paper.
- [26:59]
David Duchovny
In creating this scholarship, I wanted to reach out and uplift seniors who feel like they don't have the resources or the connections or the support. And if Mike was here, I would hope that there was a scholarship just like this for Mike to apply and receive because of his struggles with his academics. But he also had this gifted side of him. But sometimes you only see what the paper shows, and it's a low GPA or a low grade. Low grades, low testing scores. But that doesn't mean that they aren't gifted in some type of way or that they don't have that potential to go further. They just need support, guidance, and someone to say, I'm proud of you. Like, you need to hear that. You need to be heard and seen and loved. And that's what I try to give my children. And I just wanted to spread that to some other children out there.
- [27:57]
Leslie McSpadden
The scholarship is for students who are pursuing further education in the performing arts and trades or social justice. Leslie thinks if Mike were living today, he'd be doing something in the music industry. Before he was murdered, he'd been passionate about music, writing raps and lyrics and making beats on his uncle's Casio keyboard.
- [28:18]
David Duchovny
He didn't have the right equipment, but he found a way to record these things, and you can hear some of his music on SoundCloud. That became his interest and that became something that he wanted to do. If Mike was here today, that's what I believe he would be doing.
- [28:34]
Leslie McSpadden
Rapping runs in the family. But Leslie's cousin Keke says Mike put his own spin on it. He would rap, which that was kind.
- [28:42]
David Duchovny
Of like a common thing in our family, like I used to rap. But what was special about Mike and his raps is that he would have.
- [28:49]
Leslie McSpadden
These little sticky notepads that he always.
- [28:52]
David Duchovny
Took scripts out of the Bible to insert them in his raps. So, yeah, that was kind of his.
- [28:59]
Leslie McSpadden
Unique style with it. These kinds of talents aren't necessarily reflected in a high school transcript, but they're exactly the type of passions Leslie hopes to support through the foundation's memorial scholarship program. The scholarship recipients become part of Mike's legacy, and they have extra support in their lives as they go to college, something Mike never got to do. Because of everything she's lived through, Leslie is fiercely protective of young people, whether it's the kids applying for her scholarship or her own children. Ever since she became a mom, Leslie's kids have always come first, and she knows she needs to be strong for them and support their emotional journeys. Her oldest daughter, Daisia, was born three years after Mike. Mike and Leslie says Daisia naturally felt a lot of anger when he was killed.
- [29:54]
David Duchovny
It was this anger from losing her friend, her first friend. You know, my daughter is still dealing with it a lot and dealing with it heavily. She holds in a lot because she doesn't feel understood. So I try to be there for my. Not try. I'm gonna stop saying that I'm there for my daughter the best that I can, although I'm still grieving as well. But I try to put mine to the side so that I can pick hers up and pick her up.
- [30:25]
Leslie McSpadden
After Daijah graduated alongside Leslie, she got her pharmacy certificate and enrolled in Tennessee State University to continue her work in healthcare. But she ended up leaving early when other students realized she was Mike Brown's sister.
- [30:40]
David Duchovny
She told me that when people found out and started to recognize her, it just became too heavy for her. Cause I think she started to feel that weight, you know, that she thought that she was, you know, walking away from because she went to college.
- [30:55]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie's younger son, Andre, was 9 when Mike was killed. This was the second role model taken away from him too soon. Andre lost his father to community violence when he was only six years old. After Mike's murder, Leslie says, Andre got.
- [31:11]
David Duchovny
Really quiet, almost so quiet that you didn't even know he was there. He just Got really quiet. And I know that when people don't talk a lot and they hold a lot in it, they're struggling with their thoughts. And my son expressed to me that he was feeling like this spiritual attack. Like he said, mommy, just feel like something trying to get me. And I think that was just the fear of my son turning 18 and graduating high school.
- [31:45]
Leslie McSpadden
Andre started to think he wasn't gonna make it, that he'd become another statistic.
- [31:50]
David Duchovny
At the time when he died, you know, a lot of narratives was, oh, we gotta watch our sons, and most of our kids, they ain't even making it past 18, and stuff like that. So that kind of stuck in my head for a little bit to where I used to think, like, damn, am I gonna make it past 18? You know, I kinda thought about that.
- [32:07]
Leslie McSpadden
You know, that's an unseen impact of murder and police violence on black people. It has this ripple effect on family and community way beyond the murder itself. Leslie was worried about Andre, so she found a support group for him. It helped in a myriad of ways, including by strengthening his faith, which Andre has embraced. He credits God for changing his life, and Leslie supports him. She still thinks Andre is holding stuff in, though. They talked about it together.
- [32:37]
David Duchovny
My concern is how does he feel inside? How does he internalize all of what he's had to go through as well? So I always wonder how he's doing mentally, you know, and he shows me physically he's okay, but I'm still worried mentally.
- [32:57]
Leslie McSpadden
But in the room, he was very confident. He looked at her and reassured her he was doing great.
- [33:04]
David Duchovny
Mentally, I'm great. I'm really at peace in my life right now, and I look forward to my future, and I know it's bright, and I don't know how I'm going to do it, how it's going to look. I just know I'm going somewhere and that I'm looking forward to it.
- [33:23]
Leslie McSpadden
Hearing that brought Leslie to tears. She's so proud that after everything he's been through, he's doing great today.
- [33:32]
David Duchovny
Now. He's doing well. He's working. He's not experiencing that anymore. He's talking more. He's went on a few dates, and he's a wonderful son. Anyway, he doesn't cost me any problems. He's always been on honor roll. He was a safety patrol. He's just a great kid. But I'm glad we were able to take him up out of there because I was scared for him and I didn't know what his thoughts were. And I Didn't want my son hurt.
- [34:01]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie can't help but worry about Andre because he, like all her children, is one of her babies who she still wants to protect. Leslie's youngest baby is Jasmine. Leslie calls her Jazzy. She's in high school right now.
- [34:15]
David Duchovny
Jazzy keeps herself so busy. She's a captain of the color guard. She just started track. She's the great sister. She tries to help in any way that she can. She's such a sweet Capricorn, and I always call her my little flower. In January, she turned 16 and she's just very outgoing. She participates in a lot of after school activity. She's always gone on a field trip. People say, where's Jazzy? I say, she's getting her hair done because she gotta go somewhere. You know, Jazzy's on the go.
- [34:45]
Leslie McSpadden
Two years ago, Jazzy was diagnosed with lupus. It's a long term disease where your immune system attacks healthy organs. Instead of defending them, Leslie has watched her daughter's body change and her hair fall out. And it brings out Leslie's fear of something bad happening, of getting another dreaded phone call with bad news. But it doesn't bring Jazzy's spirits down.
- [35:08]
David Duchovny
She keeps going. And I admire her, you know, because I'm a big baby with pain. And I'm like, well, how do you do it? She said, mama, I'd rather just keep going and not even think about it. She said, but I feel good.
- [35:22]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie is in awe of all of her babies. They make her proud. She loves the way they keep going no matter what.
- [35:30]
David Duchovny
You know, they have just amazed me, you know, where they've went with this pain inside of them, you know, so if they can do it, hey, I know I can do it, you know?
- [35:43]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie is also a grandparent, a role she totally cherishes. When her oldest daughter, Dajah told her she was pregnant, Leslie cried.
- [35:53]
David Duchovny
I just felt like God is giving me another chance to feel about it. And that's how I describe it. And I told her, I said, it's going to be a boy. And she'll tell you this. I said, it's going to be a boy and you're going to have him in May. True enough. She had a boy, and she had him May 1st. And his name is Kylan Orlandis Kane Manson. And I call him Bunka. Cause he had the biggest hands. When he was born, I said, baby, either he gonna play the piano or be a boxer.
- [36:32]
Leslie McSpadden
When Bunka sees Leslie, she says, he does a little happy dance.
- [36:37]
David Duchovny
Just watching him learn how to go up and down the steps and learning the kitchen and where the cookies and snacks are. He know how to go and learning how to turn. Turn on the TV and, you know, just giving me another chance, you know, and I've just embraced it fully. So anytime he wants to come over or she needs me, she lives like 10 minutes away from me, or I just need to see his little face, I'll call on FaceTime, or I'll just go by and see him. And he'd be so excited to see me.
- [37:12]
Leslie McSpadden
The excitement is mutual. Leslie lights up when she talks about this boy. Her time with him is totally joyful. It's family time, together time. And that's where Leslie has always naturally thrived, surrounded by generations of family, just as she was growing up at Granny's house. And though things are far from perfect, she's making new traditions and enjoying what grandparents do best. Spoiling their grandkids.
- [37:40]
David Duchovny
We made an Easter basket. This child had me in the store. I spent $75 to make an Easter basket. Why? Why? Cause he said so.
- [37:50]
Leslie McSpadden
When he's happy, she's happy. So it's fun to go out of her way to do special things for him. Having a grandson, having another chance allows Leslie to dream again for Bunka and to uplift the aspirations he'll have as he grows up. While she sees Bunka as her second chance, she's still not giving up on her firstborn. When we come back, we'll look at how the justice system failed Leslie and Mike. Mike. And we'll see what her fight for justice looks like today.
- [38:30]
David Duchovny
Hi, I'm Erica Mahoney. You don't know me, but you know a version of my story.
- [38:35]
Leslie McSpadden
Because by now, we've all felt the.
- [38:37]
David Duchovny
Impact of senseless gun violence. I think a stray bullet flew past me because I hear the. It was that horrible feeling of dread. Something's wrong.
- [38:47]
Leslie McSpadden
Four years ago, my dad was killed.
- [38:49]
David Duchovny
In a mass shooting.
- [38:51]
Leslie McSpadden
My podcast, Senseless, is about moving forward.
- [38:53]
David Duchovny
After the unthinkable Senseless From Lemonada Media, premiering June 17th.
- [38:59]
Leslie McSpadden
I'm Meredith Goldstein, host of the Boston Globe's Love Letters podcast, which features real people from all over the world telling stories about their relationship lives. This season, we're talking about how to change for the better.
- [39:13]
David Duchovny
I just remember thinking, like, wow, this is what a healthy relationship looks and feels like.
- [39:18]
Leslie McSpadden
The reason why I'm getting emotional is I. I didn't want to leave you. I never thought I would be this way again. Join us at Love Letters, wherever you get your podcasts. When it comes to justice for Mike. Mike, Leslie won't be silenced or deterred. Shortly after her son was killed, Leslie would be invited to be on news shows or panels with other moms whose children were killed by police or in other violent ways. The moms would be asked to talk about their kids, but Leslie wanted to focus on something else.
- [39:53]
David Duchovny
I wanna talk about the one thing that nobody knows anything about the killer. Where is he? What is he doing? I said, every time we go somewhere, you all ask us to tell you about our children. Hey, by this, I done said the same thing over and over. Where is the shooter? Where is the person who caused us to be in this room having these conversations? Why isn't the focus on him? Where is he? Where is he?
- [40:26]
Leslie McSpadden
In an effort to keep the focus away from Officer Wilson and squarely on Mike, there had to be a story to justify the shooting. The official story they came up with was that on the day of his murder, Officer Wilson stopped Mike for jaywalking. There was a tussle at the police car, and then Mike ran 200ft away from officer Wilson after he'd been shot twice at close range. From there, they claimed that Mike turned around and ran back at Officer Wilson, who began shooting at him. They claim Mike continued to charge at the officer despite being shot at again and again. Now, why? Why would Mike choose to turn back to the officer after he'd made it 200ft away? They don't bother to explain that. And it still doesn't make any sense to Leslie or the many experts who have reviewed the case since. And yet the story stuck. A grand jury failed to indict Officer Darren Wilson, and in 2015, the U.S. department of justice cleared him of civil rights violations in the shooting. In a different investigation, though, the DOJ found that the Ferguson Police Department had routinely violated the constitutional rights of its black residents. The report says, and I quote, over time, Ferguson's police practices have sown deep mistrust between parts of the community and the police department, undermining law enforcement legitimacy among African Americans in particular. End quote. The DOJ report says the department's use of excessive force disproportionately targeted black people and was sometimes punitive and retaliatory instead of necessary. Officers also preyed on black people to generate revenue for the city by ticketing them for things like manner of walking in roadway. In short, the police department that Darren Wilson worked for was deeply racist and had been for many years. Years later, in 2020, after reopening the case, a St. Louis county prosecutor announced he would not be charging Wilson for murdering Mike Brown. But many say that Mike's killing deserves a fair investigation and still needs to go to court. There's a continued call by Leslie and activists, advocates, organizers for a trial. The only way to reconcile the wildness of this investigation is actually to bring this to court. That's Derae McKesson, executive director of Campaign Zero, a nonprofit that advocates against police violence. He was one of the many leaders behind the protests in Ferguson. The facts of this case, I think, never really got contended with in the public conversation. Though the Department of Justice did not criminally charge police officer Darren Wilson for the killing of Mike Brown, Derae says their 2015 report is illuminating for a couple of reasons. In particular, what the news will say is that the DOJ said that his.
- [43:31]
David Duchovny
Hands were not up.
- [43:32]
Leslie McSpadden
The hands up, don't shoot was a lie.
- [43:34]
David Duchovny
That's not what the reports say.
- [43:36]
Leslie McSpadden
Many witnesses say that his hands were up. The way they conclude is that his hands were not up as high as people said they might have been. The DOJ report also features an interview with someone who was called Witness 140 later, it came out that this person posted racist comments online about the case and was pro police. DOJ did not interview everybody, but the DOJ chose to interview her. Other agencies also interviewed her. And her testimony made all of the local media, and it made all love the national media. In the report, Witness 140 repeatedly got caught in lies, and her justifications became increasingly bizarre and racist. She wasn't charged for false testimony. Nothing happened to her. In fact, the DOJ report concedes, quote, large parts of her narrative have been admittedly fabricated from media accounts. And her bias in favor of Wilson is readily apparent. But in the very next sentence, it deems her testimony, quote, largely accurate. Derae says Witness 140 is a great example of what went wrong in previous investigations of Mike Brown's killing. And that's part of why there's a continued call for a trial to hear the facts. The police did a really good job of muddying the waters. And I do think every single day there is even more cause to reopen the case. And to bring this. To this day, Leslie is still on a mission to bring justice and demand the accountability Mike deserves. She wants the case to be reopened again and for unbiased people to do a fair investigation into what Wilson did, to charge him and convict him of.
- [45:22]
David Duchovny
Murder for the killing and assassination of Michael Orlando's Darion Brown. Cause he's very guilty of that. That is what justice will look like to me with him and for him, putting him in a cold, confined space for the rest of his life to think about it, to do nothing but think about it. Because I can't think about anything else.
- [45:54]
Leslie McSpadden
To Leslie, that's what justice would look like.
- [45:58]
David Duchovny
This isn't over. And my journey towards justice for Mike isn't over either. As long as I have breath in my body, I will be using it to speak for Mike and to be his voice.
- [46:17]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie's voice has been a rallying cry that has inspired countless people to stand up against injustice. She honors her son year round in everything she does. August 9th, though, the day Mike was killed, is a truly challenging day. During that time every year, Leslie and her family leave St. Louis.
- [46:38]
David Duchovny
I get away from here. That's what I do. I've made that like a priority. And we go somewhere where it doesn't feel like an overcast, you know, where there's not a dark cloud over our head.
- [46:50]
Leslie McSpadden
It's the day that many in the city and around the country commemorate Mike Brown. But for Leslie, it's another year further from the day she lost her son at the hands of a police officer.
- [47:02]
David Duchovny
We leave St. Louis for about a week. Of course we return. This is home. But during that time, it doesn't feel like home because there's a piece missing.
- [47:15]
Leslie McSpadden
The day Leslie holds close to her heart is May 20th. Mike's birthday. That day is special. It's usually spent just with family, nothing elaborate. But last year they did something different. With the help of Campaign zero, Leslie decided to have a birthday party for Mike, a real big celebration of his life.
- [47:36]
David Duchovny
It was the 10th anniversary and I didn't know how I was going to make it through. And I cried so much today, so much that day. But it was the greatest event. Happy birthday to you Happy, happy birthday.
- [48:14]
Leslie McSpadden
To you Happy, happy birthday.
- [48:20]
David Duchovny
The energy was high. People were dancing. We were having a good time. We had food. It was just, it was really sweet. It had its sad moments. When I looked at Mike's picture as a kid, I remember he was 8 years old on that picture. And to just think about him turning 28 and the things he would do, trying to grow facial hair and deepening his voice and then the cologne he wear. I just had a reminiscent moment of just what all those things would be now, you know, but the people in the room, they just made me feel so much better about deciding to share that moment with them. Like they, they fill the room up for me. You know, I just. I feel great. Happy birthday. The people that showed up, I was just surprised. It was a lot of people that I really thought had forgotten, but they showed up to share Mike's birthday with me versus looking for me on August 9th. And that moment will forever just be special to me. And it's not something that I want to do every year, but last year, it was significant, and I thank them for that, for making it special for me, special for Mike, and not. Not too much pressure, not too much, you know, weight on a pain part. We looked at a happier side, and I'm gonna always be happy celebrating his birthday because that's the day I was blessed with a son. I just felt like Michael's in the room. I know my son is not here, but I felt his presence, and I think he was proud of his mama.
- [50:47]
Leslie McSpadden
Throwing a birthday party for Mike last year wasn't an easy decision. And Leslie went back and forth about whether she really wanted to go through with it. In the end, of course she did. It's another way she's slowly learning to dream again, that it's okay to let herself be vulnerable in such a public way. Because what she learned was that her community, her own strength, and Mike. Mike himself will hold her up. Leslie is undoubtedly not the same person she was before August 9, 2014. How could she be? But the spark inside Leslie remains, Even if she may not think so. Inside her is still the girl who roller skated in her granny's neighborhood with her cousins, who used to sneak around and use the payphones in high school, the woman who climbed her way out of two abusive relationships and is now in a stable, loving one. The mother who worked three jobs at once with no car to support her children. And yes, she's also the woman who will forever carry around the grief of having her firstborn child brutally murdered. Leslie McSpadden is all of these things and so much more the world has yet to see. After all, she's just 45, still a young woman in Ms. Quinn's eyes.
- [52:06]
David Duchovny
Leslie, now, I love the young woman she's becoming. I feel like she has overcame so much to watch her come out of her shades and pull certain layers off, to even allow you all to know who she is now, to not feel guilty for smiling now. She's came a long way, and I don't know many people that could have walked in her shoes with all the public humiliation or gratification or whatever people want to call it, to make it through and still hold her head up.
- [52:53]
Leslie McSpadden
And that spark inside her is actually now a fire. A fire that cannot be extinguished no matter what people say about her or her family, no matter what challenges they face. A fire that will always burn and fight for justice for her son and for the aspirations of all her kids. People know Mike Brown by his death day, but his life was so much more than that, and Leslie refuses to let that day define him.
- [53:23]
David Duchovny
I birthed him, not to just bury him. There was a lot of time in between. 18 does feel short now that he's gone, but when I think about it in the memories we created in the time we spent, I have to embrace and cherish the time that God allowed me and not put any short on it, any long on it, but just embrace that time. But I do want people to know that Mike came from a loving mother that sacrificed a lot to be the best I could at 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 45 for all of my children. All of them, all four of them, Michael, Dasia, Andre and Jasmine. And I have feelings. But I've had to be hard as a stampede of bulls, you know, and it's not been easy. It's not.
- [54:25]
Leslie McSpadden
No matter what life is thrown at her, or more accurately, what life has taken from her, Leslie McSpadden keeps going even when she wants to give up. She's the ultimate survivor and fighter.
- [54:40]
David Duchovny
You may knock me down, but I'm gonna get back up. I'm gonna get back up Foreign.
- [54:53]
Leslie McSpadden
Thanks for listening to Still My Baby. Now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content like unheard clips from Leslie and some of her closest friends. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com still my baby is a Lemonada original podcast series created in collaboration with Campaign, a nonprofit organization that develops data driven policy solutions to end police violence in America. Learn more about this series and the work of Campaign Zero and the Michael O D Brown we love our Sons and daughters foundation@www.stillmybaby.org. i'm your host, Yvette Nicole Brown. Lisa Fu is our lead producer. Bobby Woody and Ivan Korayev are our audio engineers. Story editing by Jackie Danziger our VP of partnerships and production. Production support by Hannah Boomershine and Muna Danish. Our music is by Hannis Brown and apm. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Leslie McSpadden. Series consulting and editorial support by our partners at Campaign Zero, DeRay McKesson and Rachel Hislop, with additional support from Jaron Longmire, Kelly Davis and Kiana Ford. If you like the show and you believe what we're doing is important, please help others find us by leaving us a rating and writing a review. And most importantly, tell your friends. Follow StillMyBaby wherever you get your podcast or listen Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thank you for listening.
- [56:42]
David Duchovny
Hey, I'm Nicole Norfoley.
- [56:43]
Leslie McSpadden
And I'm Erin Brown and we work at the Minnesota Star Tribune and we've got a brand new show called Worth It. Every week we get together with a group of people who know Minnesota inside and out. We skip the Minnesota nights and get right to the good stuff. We share the stories and the happenings around the state. Worth your time and your money. Worth it from the Minnesota Star Tribune and Lemon Oscar Every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [57:11]
David Duchovny
Tired of the same old political shouting matches and talking points? Looking for thoughtful conversations that go beyond the headlines and help you understand issues that matter?
- [57:20]
Leslie McSpadden
I'm Sarah.
- [57:20]
David Duchovny
And I'm Beth. Together we host Pantsuit Politics, a podcast.
- [57:24]
Leslie McSpadden
Where we bring grace, nuance and perspective.
- [57:26]
David Duchovny
To the news because democracy deserves a.
- [57:28]
Leslie McSpadden
More than hot takes.
- [57:29]
David Duchovny
Join us as we approach politics and current events with curiosity, empathy and a commitment to understanding the bigger picture.
- [57:35]
Leslie McSpadden
If you want to stay informed without the anxiety, we're the show for you.
- [57:38]
David Duchovny
New episodes drop on Tuesdays and Fridays. Subscribe to Pantsuit Politics wherever you get your podcast.