Podcast Summary: "Still My Baby" – Episode: "The Untold Story: Why We Can’t Incarcerate Our Way to Public Safety"

Release Date: November 27, 2022
Hosts: Lemonada Media & Campaign Zero
Episode Title: The Untold Story: Why We Can’t Incarcerate Our Way to Public Safety

Introduction and Context

In this compelling episode of Still My Baby, hosted by Lemonada Media in collaboration with Campaign Zero, the discussion centers around the critical issue of public safety and the ineffectiveness of incarceration as a sole solution. Amidst rising concerns over violent crime and public safety, the episode delves deep into why increasing incarceration rates fails to address the root causes of crime and instead exacerbates societal issues.

Panelist Introductions and Backgrounds

Maggie Croucher, Director of Partnerships at Lemonada Media, introduces the panelists:

• Ana Zamora: Founder and CEO of the Just Trust, dedicated to advancing criminal justice reform across the United States.

• Cassandra Frederick: Executive Director of the Drug Policy Alliance, advocating for the end of drug criminalization.

• Brett Tolman: Executive Director of Right on Crime, focusing on reducing recidivism and promoting smart criminal justice policies.

• Lt. Diane Goldstein: Executive Director of the Law Enforcement Action Partnership, a retired police lieutenant with extensive experience in law enforcement and advocacy for policing reform.

The Ineffectiveness of Incarceration in Ensuring Public Safety

Megan, the host, sets the stage by highlighting the prevalent "tough on crime" rhetoric resurfacing in political discourse, which advocates for longer sentences and more incarcerations as solutions to public safety concerns. She emphasizes that despite these measures, the U.S. remains one of the least safe countries among developed nations, a fact underscoring the failure of mass incarceration to deliver on its promises.

Megan:
"If we could, the United States would be the safest country in the world. We are not the safest country in the world."
[05:03]

Brett Tolman echoes this sentiment, explaining that the focus on longer sentences does not correlate with reduced crime rates. Instead, it leads to high recidivism, with 60-70% of formerly incarcerated individuals returning to the system, indicating a systemic failure.

Brett Tolman:
"If we could incarcerate our way to public safety, the United States would be the safest country in the world. But that's not the case."
[10:33]

Personal Stories and Motivations Driving Advocacy

Each panelist shares personal experiences that fueled their commitment to criminal justice reform:

• Lt. Diane Goldstein discusses how her brother’s struggle with bipolar disorder and substance abuse, culminating in his tragic overdose, exposed her to the failures of the criminal justice system in addressing mental health and addiction issues. Her transition from law enforcement to advocacy was driven by witnessing firsthand the detrimental impacts of the war on drugs.

  Diane Goldstein:
  "Our criminal justice system just doesn't live up to its promise. It doesn't make communities safer. It definitely doesn't help survivors heal."
  [25:15]

• Cassandra Frederick shares her upbringing in New York City during high-crime periods and how her early exposure to violence and later work in social services shaped her understanding of the need for compassionate, community-based solutions over punitive measures.

  Cassandra Frederick:
  "Criminalization and things like mass incarceration actually make things more dangerous and harder to manage and give us less options."
  [14:52]

• Brett Tolman reflects on his 25-year career as a federal prosecutor, including prosecuting high-profile cases like the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping. Over time, he observed the system's shortcomings, particularly the lack of emphasis on rehabilitation, which led him to advocate for evidence-based reforms aimed at reducing recidivism.

  Brett Tolman:
  "The criminal justice system has many aspects that are broken... Recidivism rates of 60 to 70% show our failure."
  [15:01]

Challenges of 'Tough on Crime' Rhetoric

The panelists discuss how the resurgence of "tough on crime" narratives, especially in the political landscape, poses significant challenges to meaningful reform. They argue that simply increasing incarceration does not address underlying issues such as mental health, poverty, and lack of education, which are often the root causes of criminal behavior.

Megan:
"It doesn't hold accountable and help them make different choices. And yet we pour so much money and effort into maintaining our system of mass criminalization and mass incarceration."
[18:37]

Diane Goldstein:
"We have to uplift and support victims and listen to their voices... accountability doesn't always mean retribution."
[29:44]

Megan emphasizes the need for a shift in perspective, advocating for a collaborative approach that integrates various sectors to create a safer environment without relying solely on incarceration.

Proposed Solutions for Enhancing Public Safety

The conversation transitions to discussing actionable solutions that can effectively enhance public safety without exacerbating the problems associated with mass incarceration.

1. Community Responder Programs:

   Diane Goldstein highlights the importance of reshaping the role of law enforcement by introducing community responders trained to handle non-violent situations, such as mental health crises or neighborhood disputes. This approach ensures that police can focus on more serious crimes, thereby increasing efficiency and safety.

   Diane Goldstein:
   "Community responder programs include models that have mental health responders as the first response... We shouldn't be the first responders to barking dog calls."
   [37:24]

2. Decriminalization of Drugs:

   Cassandra Frederick advocates for the decriminalization of drug possession, arguing that it reduces the entry points into the criminal justice system and reallocates resources towards treatment and rehabilitation.

   Cassandra Frederick:
   "Decriminalization is about how do we remove the intervention of criminalization and create more options so that people have other things to reach for as opposed to harming other people."
   [50:39]

3. Rehabilitation and Reentry Programs:

   Brett Tolman discusses the necessity of focusing on rehabilitation within prisons and providing robust reentry programs to reduce recidivism. He underscores the importance of preparing incarcerated individuals for successful reintegration into society.

   Brett Tolman:
   "Our focus should be on rehabilitation, helping individuals to not get back into the system."
   [46:50]

4. Policy and Legislative Changes:

   The panelists agree on the need for comprehensive policy reforms that encompass funding for community-based programs, mental health services, and educational initiatives aimed at preventing crime before it occurs.

   Megan:
   "We need to focus on the facts... Because fear should not determine the way that we build our new world."
   [57:10]

The Role of Elections and Political Accountability

As the episode progresses, the discussion shifts to the significance of upcoming elections in shaping the future of criminal justice reform. The panelists stress the importance of voter awareness and the responsibility to elect officials who prioritize evidence-based policies over punitive measures.

Brett Tolman:
"Make sure your candidate is willing to hold the criminal justice system accountable and enact policies that support rehabilitation."
[53:06]

Diane Goldstein:
"We need to count the costs of our criminal justice system and invest in community health and safety instead of throwing someone's life away."
[53:59]

Cassandra Frederick:
"Focus on providing resources like treatment, housing, and mediation to prevent individuals from entering the criminal justice system."
[50:41]

Ana Zamora:
"Preventing harm and disincentivizing harmful choices requires addressing social determinants of health and providing community support systems."
[21:36]

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

The episode concludes with a unified message from the panelists: true public safety can only be achieved through comprehensive criminal justice reform that goes beyond incarceration. By addressing the root causes of crime, investing in community-based solutions, and ensuring political accountability, society can create a safer and more equitable environment for all.

Megan:
"Criminal justice reform is truly a multifaceted movement... We come from a variety of different backgrounds, and our goal is to improve public safety and justice."
[58:37]

Diane Goldstein:
"Support victims, hold the system accountable, and work towards collaborative solutions that prioritize community health."
[29:57]

Key Quotes

• Megan:
  "If we could, the United States would be the safest country in the world. We are not the safest country in the world."
  [05:03]

• Brett Tolman:
  "Recidivism rates of 60 to 70% show our failure."
  [10:33]

• Diane Goldstein:
  "Community responder programs include models that have mental health responders as the first response... We shouldn't be the first responders to barking dog calls."
  [37:24]

• Cassandra Frederick:
  "Decriminalization is about how do we remove the intervention of criminalization and create more options so that people have other things to reach for as opposed to harming other people."
  [50:39]

• Brett Tolman:
  "Make sure your candidate is willing to hold the criminal justice system accountable and enact policies that support rehabilitation."
  [53:06]

This episode of Still My Baby serves as an essential listen for anyone interested in understanding the complexities of public safety and the critical need for comprehensive criminal justice reform. By featuring diverse perspectives from individuals deeply embedded in the advocacy process, the podcast provides invaluable insights into building a safer, more just society.