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- [00:02]
Leslie McSpadden
Hi, I'm Megan and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcast. Hi everyone, I'm David Duchovny. Join me on my podcast Fail Better, where we use failure as a lens to reflect on the past and analyze the current moment. I speak with makers and performers like Rob Lowe, Rosie o' Donnell, and Kenya Barris, as well as thinkers like Kara Swisher and Nate Silver to understand how both personal setbacks and larger forces impact our world. Listen to Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:20]
Keke
Can Feel is a torture site. Can Feel is like ground zero for me. What they did on Canfield changed my life forever.
- [01:32]
Leslie McSpadden
On August 9, 2014, Police Officer Darren Wilson shot and killed Michael Brown on Canfield Drive in Ferguson, Missouri, setting off a 400 day uprising that captured the world. Justice for Mike Brown. Justice for Mike Brown. There is growing outrage tonight after an unarmed African American teenager was shot and killed by Police in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, Missouri. Police in riot gear use tear gas and beanbag rounds to disperse crowds. Hands up. Don't shoot.
- [02:06]
Mike Brown
Hands up.
- [02:07]
Keke
Don't shoot.
- [02:09]
Leslie McSpadden
The world knows Mike Brown because of August 9th and the protests that followed his murder. But for Mike Brown's mother, Leslie, May 20 is where she always begins his story.
- [02:26]
Keke
So many of my family members were there, cousins, aunts, uncles. It was so many people there for Mike's birth. In the same way Mike came into this world with a lot of people around him is the same way he left, you know, so I've always felt that God gave me that baby for a reason. That's why May 20th will always be a special day to me because I had a baby. Michael Atlantis Darion Brown.
- [02:59]
Leslie McSpadden
From Lemonada Media and Campaign Zero. You're listening to Still My Baby. This is the story of Michael Orlandis Darion Brown.
- [03:11]
Keke
He was so fun loving, just a caring kid.
- [03:15]
Mike Brown
He had a great sense of humor. He was funny. And I know that it wasn't nothing for him to crack a joke or make you smile.
- [03:23]
Keke
He put others before himself at times. He would just always, you know, try to make you feel welcome. He was just a cool, laid back dude.
- [03:35]
Leslie McSpadden
It's the story of his family as they were before he died and as they are today, still piecing things back together through their grief. And it's the story of his mom, Leslie, or as many call her, Nettie Pooh.
- [03:49]
Keke
Everybody spells it different, like Niecy. She spelling Ned Poo. N E, D, Poo. And they call me Nettie Poo. Her mama called me Nellipoo. Some people just call me Nettie. Some people call me Lil Natty, you call me Nettie. You see what I'm saying? Like, my mom may say Nettie some so. But it started off as Nettie Poo.
- [04:09]
Leslie McSpadden
Here's the thing. We shouldn't actually know Leslie's name or her nicknames. Same with Mike Brown, because they should both be living life as normal, everyday people. That's all Leslie wanted. But her life veered far from normal on August 9, 2014, when her son was murdered. More than 10 years later, with the world having moved on, Leslie is still Mike's mom, fighting to bring him justice and longing for the normalcy they once had. Those everyday, mundane moments.
- [04:48]
Keke
I'm still Mike's mom right now. Once you're a mother, you never forget how to mother.
- [04:57]
Leslie McSpadden
So we're tracing her journey as a young mom who struggled to build a stable, typical life for her family, only to see it torn apart on a public stage. And as an advocate and a mother today, rebuilding after unimaginable loss. Leslie McSpadden grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, in the 1980s and 90s and spent a lot of her childhood at her grandmother's house on Acme and Albertine Avenues.
- [05:27]
Keke
She lived in the biggest house on the block. Everybody came to her house for the holidays, and most of the neighbors were on her porch every day because she had a lot of grandkids. My grandmother had eight children. I can't even count all the grandkids. But we all migrated there. If it wasn't after school every day, it was on the weekends and most definitely on holidays. We were just like one big family.
- [05:52]
Leslie McSpadden
Of all her cousins, Leslie's favorite was Keke. They're only a year apart, and they always clicked.
- [05:58]
Mike Brown
We've just always been there for each other.
- [06:01]
Keke
She's been with me through good times, bad times. She's just never left my side. So she's been more than a cousin, really, more than cousins.
- [06:09]
Mike Brown
Like, we've been there for each other.
- [06:11]
Keke
Like, really close as being. Cousins, sisters. We come from a family that fed the whole neighborhood. We come From a family that every holiday they may have family coming from out of town, but somehow they ended up on our grandmother's porch. Or we ended up in the street playing court. Some type of ball game, some type of high. Go see either putting on your skates, rolling through the street, playing Pokeno. Yes, we love her. We would walk in and out the door and pass that dining room table for hours, waiting on someone to get up and let us play. Cause we were taught to respect elders very much. So, like, you don't ask who it is, you don't say lie, you don't question. You are to be seen and not heard.
- [06:55]
Leslie McSpadden
That's the culture. Leslie, her siblings, Keke and all her cousins were raised in. Granny was the matriarch of the family, and she was always in charge.
- [07:04]
Keke
Her tying the string to our teeth into the knob and slamming the door to pull out our teeth. We wasn't scared, though, and it didn't hurt. We was looking forward. You know, our mamas and daddies be like, let me get it. No, no, no. We wait until we go over there with Granny. She gonna get it. And that's what she did. You know, that's where we went when we were sent home from school. We didn't go home. We went to Granny's house. She always said, boiled foods make you feel better. She was a boil, a pot of food type of person, you know what I'm saying? So big pots of spaghetti like this, and we playing so hard that we didn't want to sit down and eat. So we would make spaghetti sandwiches just so we can hurry up and get back outside and play. But she had a routine with us. And when we all spent the night, we got up at a certain time. You picked your cover up, you put it up, you got yourself together. And we went in the kitchen, and this person did eggs, this person did bread. And my granny would do the meat. It's a memory that none of us ever forget because we shared all that time together. We really did. We really grew up together.
- [08:06]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie always had her family, and even though she wasn't raised with a lot of money, Leslie says her mother always kept a roof over their heads and the lights on. And Leslie knew she could rely on Kiki to give her shoe advice when she got to buy a new pair once a year. All the togetherness happened at their granny's house. And it was from her house that Leslie and her siblings waited early in the morning for the first of two buses to take them to Ladue school district. So early it was dark out. Ledoux was part of the deseg program, short for desegregation. Though the district was predominantly white, Leslie didn't feel out of place. There were a lot of other black students, and she had teachers she felt close to and connected with, including one very special teacher in high school.
- [08:53]
Keke
Her name was Ms. Sanders. Patricia Sanders, to be exact. And she would really, like, keep me in line and keep me out of trouble.
- [09:05]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie says Ms. Sanders really cared for her, while also keeping Leslie on her toes.
- [09:10]
Keke
We had this common area where everybody could hang out when you had a free class or in between lunch periods. And we had phones in there, and I used to be in there sneaking on the phone. And, you know, you would think you sneaking, but it's like she wore these high heels. She was so jazzy, Okay? I could hear her coming around the corner, and I would try to get off, and she'll say, I see you. And she would come and take the phone and say, who is this? Do you know where she is and where she's supposed to be? I mean, she would tell all your business, and she'll say, I'm gonna take you to class, and I'm gonna, you know, say you was with me and don't let me catch you again. She was like that mama at school that you needed, you know? And I appreciate her. I really do. I'll never forget Ms. Sanders.
- [09:54]
Leslie McSpadden
When Leslie was 14 and just a freshman, she met a boy, Mike Brown, who we will be calling Big Mike. Kiki, Leslie's favorite cousin, is actually the one who introduced the two of them.
- [10:05]
Keke
Me and Mike, we went to school together, so he was originally my friend.
- [10:12]
Leslie McSpadden
We went to Normandy.
- [10:13]
Keke
Leslie went to Ladue. So we used to have these crazy young house parties.
- [10:20]
Leslie McSpadden
He attended a house party that, of.
- [10:22]
Keke
Course, my cousin Leslie was invited to because she's my family member, and that's how they kind of met. They were at a house party of mine.
- [10:30]
Leslie McSpadden
It wasn't just any party. It was Keke's Sweet 16 Birthday Jam, and the basement was packed. Big Mike was an upperclassman. In Leslie's 2016 book, Tell the Truth and Shame the Devil, she describes him as tall, with a deep voice, wearing dickies and a T shirt. They danced at the party, and she gave him her number. Later that night, when she was home, she laid in bed, excited, thinking about Big Mike maybe becoming a real boyfriend. In the weeks and months that followed, the two of them talked on the phone for hours. Sometimes Leslie would wake up tangled in the phone cord. He met her Mother. She met his parents, and they became girlfriend and boyfriend. Even though Leslie's mom knew they were together, Leslie says she never got the sex talk, so she didn't really know how to protect herself. When Leslie was in 10th grade and missed her period, she turned to her good friend April, who brought a pregnancy test to school for her.
- [11:25]
Keke
We went in the bathroom and I took it, and I remember her saying, ooh, ooh, ooh. And I was like, ooh, what? And she was like, girl, you pregnant? I was like, no, I'm not. And I was like, oh, my God, I gotta tell my mama. No, I'mma let you tell her. You tell her. And we went to those same payphones in school and called my mom.
- [11:50]
Leslie McSpadden
Her mom picked up the phone and April broke the news.
- [11:53]
Keke
And she said, april, this better be April's food joke, something like that. And she just was fussing and fussing, and I didn't even get on the phone. I was just like, girl, hang up.
- [12:02]
Leslie McSpadden
As Leslie and Keke remember it, no one in the family really took the news of Leslie's pregnancy seriously at first.
- [12:09]
Keke
I don't think anybody believed me, like. Cause they just couldn't believe that I was having sex. Yeah, I didn't know anything about it. I just was pregnant. We all were pregnant.
- [12:18]
Leslie McSpadden
That's why we didn't believe her.
- [12:19]
Keke
Yeah. I'm telling you, that's the God's honest truth. Like, I was never really talked to about that. I was dealing with somebody, and we was in a relationship. Supposed to be boyfriend, girlfriend. My mom knew, his mom knew, and we spent time together. And then for, you know, I was scared. I didn't know what was wrong with me. But one thing that I did know was I want to have this baby.
- [12:39]
Leslie McSpadden
She knew what she wanted, but being pregnant was hard. Leslie felt sick during her entire pregnancy, but continued to go to school. Her belly grew bigger and bigger, so no formal announcement was needed. She says the school let her go to the nurse her first period and gave her a key for the elevator.
- [12:57]
Keke
They worked with me because I was definitely trying. I was showing up and I was giving it my best, but I did not use it as an excuse. You know, I still. Still did what I was supposed to do when I showed up to school. But of course, you know, I would fall asleep in some classes and people would wake me up and tell me, oh, they were talking about. They were pointing, you know, I would go through that, of course, you know, but, hey, it comes with the territory, you know, of being a teen mom, though.
- [13:25]
Leslie McSpadden
Her mom initially didn't want her to keep the baby. She ended up being supportive throughout the pregnancy and took Leslie to all her doctor's appointments.
- [13:33]
Keke
So May 20, 1996, I had a doctor's appointment, and my doctor's name was Dr. Ikuno. He was so nice to me. And I would go in. My mom always went to the doctor with me. And he said, come here, come here. Look, look. I was so embarrassed. He was telling her to look down there. And he said, she's going to have this baby tonight. You see this? She has lost her pluck. I was like, what dog is a plug? What's a plug? So I go home and my mom say, come on, we going to granny's house. I went to my grandma house. She had made a large pot of spaghetti. And I remember her saying to me, eat this now, because when you go to the hospital, they're not going to let you eat my first baby. So I was like, really? So I ate the spaghetti, and about 10 o' clock, I went to the hospital. I remember going in and being put all up, you know, plugged up and everything. And then I started feeling nauseated, and so they brought me a cup and there comes all the spaghetti up. It was like, granny, that's still hungry now. And so many of my family members were there. Cousins, aunts, uncles. It was so many people there for Mike's birthday. And within 44 minutes, Mike was out. I got there at 10. He was born at 10:44.
- [14:59]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie knew she wanted to name her firstborn after his father. She also knew that she wanted to honor her sister or brother, depending on the sex. And since it was a boy, her brother got the nod.
- [15:09]
Keke
I chose his middle name, which is Orlandis. And then I wanted to give Mike a name of my own that I wanted to name him, you know, and that was Darion. And I wanted Mike to have his own identity. I wanted him to be his own person, an individual. And his dad didn't want a junior. He didn't want that on there. So that's how we came up with Michael Orlandis. Darion Brown. And that's his name, M, O, D.
- [15:32]
Leslie McSpadden
B. Leslie called him Mike. Mike. After his quick delivery. It felt like Leslie's whole family was at the hospital. She says it was really joyous.
- [15:42]
Keke
I just remember my mom and them coming in the room to see him. And I was holding them, and he had a little cone head. And she brought his first outfit. It says, I love my grandma. That was his first picture. And life began for us, the first.
- [15:58]
Leslie McSpadden
Order of business for their new life, A visit to Granny's.
- [16:02]
Keke
When you have a baby, Granny does not come to the hospital. You have to stop by her house on your way home. So when I stopped at her house, some more of my family was there to greet Mike and see Mike. And I remember my oldest aunt, her name is Barbara, she was holding Mike Mike. She said, don't you be kidding cause she gotta go to school. So that was very important to me to go back to school and graduate.
- [16:25]
Leslie McSpadden
And that was Leslie's plan.
- [16:28]
Keke
I had to make these people proud of me, you know, cause I had a little bump in the road, but we gonna keep going. And that's what I did.
- [16:38]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie returned to high school her junior year, a teen mom. As you can imagine, it wasn't easy. That's next after the break. Hey, I'm Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls.
- [16:56]
Keke
Who Code and Moms First.
- [16:57]
Leslie McSpadden
I consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. So why is it that in midlife.
- [17:02]
Keke
As I'm about to turn 50, I feel so stuck?
- [17:06]
Leslie McSpadden
Join me as I try to find the answer on my so called midlife from Lemonada Media. I talk to experts and extraordinary guests about divorce, exercise, menopause, sex, drugs and more to understand what we're going through and how to make the most of it. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
- [17:22]
Keke
I'm Hasan Minhaj and I have been lying to you.
- [17:25]
Leslie McSpadden
I only pretended to be a comedian.
- [17:27]
Keke
So I could trick important people into coming on my podcast. Hasan Minhaj doesn't know to ask them the tough questions that real journalists are.
- [17:34]
Leslie McSpadden
Way too afraid to ask.
- [17:35]
Keke
People like Senator Elizabeth Warren. Is America too dumb for democracy?
- [17:41]
Leslie McSpadden
Outrageous parenting expert Dr. Becky.
- [17:44]
Keke
How do you skip consequences without raising a psychopath?
- [17:47]
Leslie McSpadden
That's a good question.
- [17:48]
Keke
Listen to Hasan Minhaj doesn't know from Lemonada Media, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [17:56]
Leslie McSpadden
Because Mike, Mike was the first of many things. Leslie and Mike's first kid, first nephew of her siblings, first grandkid for her parents and Mike's parents. He was totally indulged. Leslie says he had two of everything. Two car seats, two high chairs, two strollers, two bassinets. Life was good.
- [18:18]
Keke
We had a lot of happy times. I used to put him in little tank tops with the, with the little floral shirts open. Oh my God, so many. Putting them in his suits for Easter and making his Easter baskets and just celebrating every holiday with him, dressing him up. I love to put him in like this little sailor suit I have. Like when I. He was still he wasn't even one yet. Just. Just embracing motherhood, you know, and your cute little sweet baby, you know, all of that.
- [18:48]
Leslie McSpadden
Mike. Mike was really funny, even as a baby. And one of his early passions was his love for animals.
- [18:54]
Keke
Mike had a dog when he was 1 years old. All his dogs have been named Spike, and Spike was pike because he couldn't say the S when he was one. But my father's father breeded miniature Dobermans. He was Sandy red. Everybody in the neighborhood knew Spike when he was 1. My mom was in the backyard hanging clothes on the line, and I went out and I said, mama, where is Mike Mike at? And she was like, he was in there with you. And she just instantly started yelling, you better find him. Goddamn. Well, when I went outside, I was asking, y' all seen Mike Mike? Everybody like, no. Something told me to walk towards Ms. Brown House. Well, I got to the end of the street, and I see a dog tail and I see a pamp, and it's him and the dog. I'm so glad that he hadn't crossed the street, but he had got out the house, walked around. He knew where his grandma stayed and was finna go over there to her house.
- [19:49]
Leslie McSpadden
Mike Mike and Spike were always together. He loved his dog.
- [19:54]
Keke
Something happened to Spike, I can't remember. But then our neighbor gave us another dog, and that was Spike, too.
- [20:01]
Leslie McSpadden
When junior year of high school started, Leslie's mom watched Mike Mike while Leslie went to school. But eventually her mom had to prioritize work, which meant Leslie had to figure out what to do with her baby. She decided the best thing would be to move out of her mom's house to live with Big Mike. And his parents, Mr. And Mrs. Brown, they were incredibly supportive grandparents.
- [20:23]
Keke
They really doted over him. They loved him. I saw the same type of love that they gave to their son. They were just some really great parents. They really were.
- [20:33]
Leslie McSpadden
Mike Mike was especially close to Mr. Brown.
- [20:36]
Keke
He just loved Mike Mike. He took Mike Mike to the barbershop McDonald's. Like he knew his grandfather was gonna take him somewhere. I'll tell you this. When he would keep Mike, he would put him in a high chair and put the top over him and put on Disney movies. And that's what started the whole visual thing for Mike, because he was a whiz at the game, had every game that came out. I love the fact that he had some old because it taught him structure and discipline as well. Cause I was still young. I was still under 20 myself.
- [21:13]
Leslie McSpadden
With Leslie living with them. Mrs. Brown found someone to watch Mike Mike during the day, allowing Leslie to focus on academics again.
- [21:19]
Keke
I went back to school, and Mike would drive me to my bus stop, and I would catch two buses to get out to Ladue. After maybe three or four months, I had a fight at school. I was suspended, and I still wasn't giving up. After my suspension, I went back because I was determined, and one of the young ladies was just continuing to bother me. Although I was trying to block it out, it just had became just too much of a hindrance. And then I still had home to be concerned about. You know, Mike's a baby. Who's gonna watch him? So I dropped out of school in 11th grade.
- [21:54]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie had tried her hardest to stay in school and be a good mom. Leslie's mom and the Browns were trying to help her out with Mike Mike, but it just wasn't working. She had to focus on her son because at the end of the day, taking care of Mike Mike and being the best mom possible was the most important thing in her life.
- [22:13]
Keke
It changed her tremendously.
- [22:15]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie's cousin Kiki, again, she had to.
- [22:18]
Keke
Sprout into motherhood, like, really quickly. Therefore, she really didn't have a choice but to tend to motherhood and not school. At the time, it was just too much for her.
- [22:31]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie switched her focus from school to looking for work so she could support herself and Mike Mike. She didn't want to live with the Browns forever. Her relationship with Big Mike wasn't going well. They were growing apart as their priorities shifted and Leslie's mental health was floundering.
- [22:49]
Keke
Our room was in the basement, and so, you know, when you're in a basement, you really can't tell if it's daytime or nighttime until you actually look out the window or go upstairs. And I used to be down there, so I know that I probably had slipped into depression, and I didn't want to go outside. I didn't. I wasn't feeling myself. And then, you know, Mike, him and I used to fight.
- [23:13]
Leslie McSpadden
Big Mike was physically abusive to Leslie on multiple occasions, she says, even in front of his parents. In her book, Leslie says that Big Mike would apologize afterward, he'd hold her in his arms. But she started to view him and their relationship differently.
- [23:29]
Keke
Even though I was still here, laying on the side of this man, he sleeps snoring. My eyes are wide open, and my mind is racing thinking about my next step. You know, like, I had to be strategic.
- [23:40]
Leslie McSpadden
After Leslie enrolled Mike Mike in preschool, Leslie moved out of the Brown's house and Back in with her mom, Leslie was ready to move on, physically and emotionally. But just as she was starting to feel she could, Leslie learned she was pregnant again. At age 19, Leslie gave birth to a girl, Da' Jah, the second kid between her and Big Mike.
- [24:05]
Keke
I had a doctor's appointment, and they let me know she was really high up, gonna send you in, you know. So it took like all day, all night, and I had Daijah at like 2:30 in the afternoon the next day.
- [24:15]
Leslie McSpadden
Natural Dajah was born on April 22, 1999. Leslie was overwhelmed with love. Mike was almost three and jumped all around the day his new sister was brought home, making sure she was okay.
- [24:28]
Keke
And then he picked dai' Jah up, and he was running down the hall with her. Oh, God. That's a funny story.
- [24:33]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie managed to catch up with him and take dai' Doia from his arms before anything bad happened. She scolded him for scaring her. But Mike, with his sweet, sweet eyes, responded by saying how much he loved Dejah. From that day on, Mike was always protective of dai' Jah, and the two of them were inseparable.
- [24:52]
Keke
They went to school together, they played together, bathed together, slept together. You know, all of that.
- [24:57]
Leslie McSpadden
But a new kid couldn't fix what was broken in Leslie's relationship with Big Mike. When Da' Jah was one, Leslie attempted to get her own apartment and really distance herself from Big Mike.
- [25:08]
Keke
His mom, she just. She's a sweet lady. Don't get me wrong. She really is. She has a good heart. She said, nana Pooh, I'm gonna pay the rent. You let Michael go on with y' all. And I really didn't want to do that, but I said, okay, okay. So when I got my very first apartment, she paid my rent as long as he was there.
- [25:30]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie didn't want to live with Big Mike, but she needed the money. And they agreed that when Leslie went to work during the day, Big Mike would watch the kids. The arrangement didn't actually work very well.
- [25:41]
Keke
I was working two jobs, and I would come home at night after working the two jobs, meaning I'm gone all day. He would have company in my house. They would be playing the game. My children would still have on the same pajamas, and they would be telling me they hungry. And I said, that's it. You can't. No, no, no, no. You gotta go.
- [26:00]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie could no longer live with Big Mike, free rent or not, and he eventually moved out. Throughout all of this, the moving, having another kid, the emotional and physical ups and downs Leslie always did everything she could to take care of her kids, and that meant working. Since Big Mike wasn't adding to the pot, she says it was up to her to bring home a paycheck.
- [26:23]
Keke
One time I had like three jobs and I didn't have a vehicle, so I had to rely on people to pick me up and drop me off. So I, I remember coming in the house, talking to the kids, making sure they ate, making sure everything was a okay, you know, sitting down on the couch, putting my head back for maybe five minutes and hearing a horn blow. Boop, boop. Oh, that's my ride. I gotta get to the next job.
- [26:46]
Leslie McSpadden
Mike. Mike stepped up at home to support his mom. He was good at taking instructions over the phone when she was at work. In middle school, he helped clean and cook for the family, doing laundry sometimes or making dinner. Mike. Mike also perfected cooking Saturday breakfast, which was a spread of pancakes, eggs with cheese, sausage, and deep fried bacon. For work, Leslie did a little bit of everything. She did passenger transportation at the airport, worked at a nursing home, a fancy hotel, a few fast food jobs, home health care. She even worked at grocery stores like the St. Louis based chain Schnooks.
- [27:21]
Keke
And when I was at Schnooks is when I met someone who worked at Strops and they said, you should come over there and you should, you know, and I g. And then I ended up at Straub's.
- [27:33]
Leslie McSpadden
Straub's is a fancy gourmet food store. Leslie worked in the deli. She made dips and salads. And she was good, so good they named a roast beef sandwich after her. The Leslie.
- [27:44]
Keke
I also was a cheese connoisseur. When I was at Strobs. I learned about several cheeses to pair with wines and all that good stuff and grapes. So what they would do is they would send me to all the strives to do demos.
- [27:55]
Leslie McSpadden
It was at Straub's where Leslie met longtime friend Belinda.
- [28:00]
Keke
I've been knowing Leslie now about 17, 18 years.
- [28:03]
Leslie McSpadden
She's everything.
- [28:04]
Keke
She's a go getter. She love people and willing to help anybody. Leslie would do anything for you. We loved her and the customers really loved her.
- [28:15]
Leslie McSpadden
In the same way that Ms. Sanders was Leslie's school mom, Belinda was Leslie's work mom. She remembers Leslie working so hard while juggling parenthood.
- [28:26]
Keke
She wanted to make sure that they had what she didn't have. She juggled them babies. She did her thing. Single parent. I give it to her. I got a lot of respect for her taking care of your kids. Raising kids ain't no joke. Mike the daddy, I never knew him. It was always her. She would go out of her way. I just admired her because she tried so hard. I told her, you're gonna have to stop catching cabs home. $25 going and $25 coming. You can't do that. Leslie, a single parent trying to make it. So I would pick her up, take her, you know, when I wasn't working, I'd go get her. She didn't want me to do that. Don't do that, Mom. I'm all right. I got away, you know. But that was just Leslie.
- [29:10]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie eventually gave up the other jobs and Straub's became her full time gig. She was a hard worker, but her kids remained the priority. If the school called because something was wrong, she didn't hesitate to step away from work.
- [29:23]
Keke
If something has gone on with my kids, I'm gone. I would rather be there than anyone else because no one knew more than me about my children and their health.
- [29:33]
Leslie McSpadden
Like when the nurse at Mike Mike's school called Leslie and said he was complaining about a headache. That was the start of multiple health episodes at school. And at age 14, Mike Mike was diagnosed with hypertension, or high blood pressure, which when left untreated, can lead to other serious problems like heart attack or stroke. Leslie was scared the health care I.
- [29:57]
Keke
Was receiving from the state would not let him go see a cardiologist or a neurologist, the people that he needed to see for his health. And I had to work 8,000 hours, eight, so that I could qualify and put Mike on my insurance. But I did it, and they only gave me a 10 cent raise with that. But whatever you gotta do for your kids, you're gonna do it.
- [30:20]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie helped Mike Mike get his diet and hypertension under control. This meant he had to give up cooking his Saturday morning breakfast spread for his family. As Leslie was managing all of this and work, she met another man. Though she had been able to end things with Big Mike when the domestic abuse got really serious, cycles aren't easy to break. The man she was in a new relationship with also put his hands on her when they first got together. He made her feel important. In her book, Leslie said he was attentive, caring, and giving. Most importantly, he also looked out for Mike Mike and Dasia. She went on to have two more children with him, Andre and Jazzy. And sometimes things were really good. But often they were not. Sadly, domestic abuse was not new to Leslie. Growing up, she witnessed her mother and Other women in her family endure abuse and even at one point thought that's just what a relationship was.
- [31:24]
Keke
I was hiding myself behind glasses and big hair, and my mom came to me one day and she just kept trying to look in my face. And I knew that someone had told her. And that's when I was like, nah, I can't do this. Even though she knows that I witnessed her go through hurt her to see me going through that, you know, But I would try to hide it from the kids.
- [31:50]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie did everything she could to shield her kids from the abuse she experienced with their fathers. She didn't want that to affect their relationships with them. For that reason, Leslie sometimes sent the kids away to stay at their grandmother's house for a few days so her injuries could heal. She was embarrassed and ashamed, and she didn't want anyone to know what was going on. After years and years of accepting the cycle of abuse she was born into, she was ready to finally take control.
- [32:17]
Keke
Like, no, this could not be love. And this is definitely not what I want, you know, gotta be something better. Like, I. I deserve better.
- [32:29]
Leslie McSpadden
And Leslie did find that something better. That's after the break. An Australian hiker travels to the American west to walk a wilderness trail.
- [32:43]
Keke
Wasn't afraid to be out on his.
- [32:45]
Leslie McSpadden
Own, but Eric Robinson vanish, vanished in the high Uinta Mountains.
- [32:49]
Keke
I remember thinking, eric, what were you thinking, mate?
- [32:53]
Leslie McSpadden
I'm Dave Cawley. Join me on my podcast Uinta Triangle, where I travel the world to answer the question, what happened to Eric Robinson? Follow Uinta Triangle. That's U I n T a triangle. On Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insight and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media. Leslie met her husband Lewis at Straub's. They worked there together. Belinda remembers that time fondly.
- [33:52]
Keke
When Lewis started at the job, he was in maintenance. I never knew that, you know, they were really seeing each other. I said, uh huh, you liking him? And I used to mess with Lewis. I was like, yeah, you liking her too? Mm. And they got they hooked up.
- [34:07]
Leslie McSpadden
To tell the story properly, though, we have to go back to the beginning. It all began before Lewis job at Straub's even started.
- [34:14]
Mike Brown
I was just applying for Straub's, and she was like, maybe the first person or second. I can't lie, she caught my eye. And ever since then, I just had this crush on her, you know? So I went up there for my interview one day, and I seen her. She was coming to get her a.
- [34:32]
Keke
Check, and Lewis was at the counter, And I walked past, and he was just piercing me. And I just stopped.
- [34:40]
Mike Brown
And I couldn't take my eyes off of her. So I was. I don't know. I was just. At that moment, I think I knew then, like, yeah, this the one right here. I think I knew.
- [34:48]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie was not used to that kind of attention. Someone incapable of looking away when she was nearby. For that reason, she vividly remembers Lewis's first day of work. She was, as usual, at the deli, where things got busy at lunchtime.
- [35:01]
Keke
He was just standing there, like, looking. And I was looking behind me like, who he looking at? And what is he looking at? Like, what's wrong with this man? I kept looking behind me like, who he looking at? So I said, can I help you? And he was just looking. And I was like, do you need something? And I said, something wrong with him?
- [35:20]
Mike Brown
She didn't have a lot of makeup on. It wasn't nothing made. And I met her at work in her uniform. So it was like, this is you and your purse. You're not dressed up in the club or you, like, got my attention? No, it just you at work in a natural essence with no makeup. And you just have a natural beauty. You know, your eyes are beautiful, your skin, it's just everything. And you were just.
- [35:43]
Keke
The next day or after I went out on break, and you came out to the break table, and you asked me, could you buy me a soda or something like that? And I think I was like, yeah, sure. And then we started talking. And so when I would go on break again, he would take his break as well. And people were starting to notice, like, they going out there together.
- [36:04]
Mike Brown
She worked in the deli, and I was maintenance, so I was free floater. I do a lot around the store, but I made sure I get to the deli every day.
- [36:12]
Keke
There were some people that was just like, oh, I don't know. I don't think he likes you like that. It's just like a lust thing.
- [36:18]
Mike Brown
No, I'm an adult. I know the difference between lust and love. It was more than just that. No, this is my girl. This Is who I want.
- [36:26]
Keke
And so we kind of started talking at work, and he was asking for my number. And at first I was like, no, no, no. And then something just was like, try something you never tried, you know? So I went on and I gave him my number. And some days we would be at work, and I would be in a cooler, and I would turn around and Lewis would be in a cooler, and I'm like, look, you can't be doing this stuff at work. So after that, people knew that we had became an item and we were dating and all that good stuff. And it was cool, you know, it.
- [36:56]
Mike Brown
Was like, I really want to be with you. And I started just showing her more affection, talking to her more on the phone when we're not at work, being with her more after work. Like, I wanna see you after working eight hours with you, and I still wanna spend time with you. Yeah, it's really there. It's really there. You know, it was pure.
- [37:17]
Keke
People like to see us happy. And then it was like me and Lewis kind of became this poster couple for people like, oh, y' all look so happy, and this and that. And so I was like, we actually.
- [37:28]
Leslie McSpadden
Are happy, you know, and they stayed happy. So they talked about taking things to the next level.
- [37:34]
Keke
I already had four children. He had his three children. Neither one of us had been married. And I just was like, you know, I don't know if I want to just be in a relationship, but I kind of want to do the next, you know, marriage. So what do you think? In three years, if we're still together, we're doing good and we're progressing what you think? You know, he was like, okay.
- [37:56]
Leslie McSpadden
Well, those three years passed by, and Lewis didn't forget what they agreed on. He was ready to do something about it.
- [38:03]
Mike Brown
It was just like one of them days where you get up not knowing. It was just a nice day.
- [38:07]
Keke
I was at home, just in the house. You was out doing something, and you came in the house and you just said, you ready? And I said, ready for what? And he was like, you said, in three years, you wanna. I said, oh, you wanna go today? You ready right now? It was during the week, but it was just like, out the blue. Like, yeah, we talked about it, but we didn't plan. So I'm like, okay. And I found this. What I thought was my best sweater, and I put that on and some cute blue jeans and some nice sandals. And Lewis just went in his work clothes.
- [38:36]
Mike Brown
So we went to the courthouse. That either that day, I believe the Afternoon.
- [38:40]
Keke
I remember being number 28. No one knew but him and I.
- [38:45]
Mike Brown
It was just me and her.
- [38:46]
Keke
We did that May 7, 2014, and then we told everybody after.
- [38:51]
Mike Brown
It was a sweet day. It was a sweet day.
- [38:57]
Leslie McSpadden
Because it was a courthouse wedding. Leslie and Lewis talked about eventually having a reception, throwing a big party to actually celebrate. What they didn't know is that three months later, Mike would be murdered and everything would change. It's been more than 10 years, and they still haven't celebrated that special day. Two weeks after Leslie and Lewis tied the knot, Mike. Mike turned 18. Before his birthday barbecue, Lewis cut Mike's hair in the kitchen.
- [39:30]
Keke
He's a certified barber, and that's when him and Mike will bond a lot.
- [39:34]
Leslie McSpadden
That day, they talked about Mike's future. Mike asked Lewis how long he would have to go to school to become a computer programmer. And when the haircut was done, Lewis assured Mike that even though he had married his mom, Mike. Mike was still the man of the house. Lewis also said that he'd always be there for Mike, no matter what. The two of them had a connection, and Lewis said Mike made him laugh. Mike.
- [39:58]
Mike Brown
Mike was funny. He had a sense of humor. I know that much. You know, my hair grow long now. I cut my hair one time, man. That dude called me genuine one day. That was so funny to me. It was so funny that we are like, okay. But he had. He was funny, and I know that it wasn't nothing for him to crack a joke or make you smile.
- [40:19]
Leslie McSpadden
Lewis brought a calm to the household. He was never abusive and helped carry the financial load, two things Leslie hadn't ever experienced in a serious relationship. He fit seamlessly into their family, and Leslie loved that Lewis connected so well with her kids. After Mike turned 18, he was nearing the end of his senior year in high school. School Leslie had always emphasized the importance of education and graduating, even though she didn't get the chance to do that herself.
- [40:47]
Keke
He had some struggles, and I. I just used to tell him about my struggles, and, like, you got to do this because I didn't, and I need you to go beyond the point that I did. And he would always say, well, what about you, Mama? You didn't. What about you? You know, they always want to compare. And I said, no, I don't want you to be like me. I want you to be better than me, you know, And a lot of parents say that, but I really meant that. And I told him, I said, I tell you what, once I have the time to go back to school, I'M going to do that, but you got to do it first. I said, you got to do it first.
- [41:27]
Leslie McSpadden
A lot of Mike's academic struggles stem from having a learning disability and adhd. He received extra help and resources through an Individual education plan, or iep. But Leslie says Mike was also gifted in his own way. He was a techie and often tinkered with electronics and computers.
- [41:46]
Keke
Mike, Mike. He was the teacher of all these tech items and teaching us how to use the phone, how to program the TVs and all that. You would come and get Mike for all of that. He was the person for that.
- [41:56]
Leslie McSpadden
He could fix a computer by taking out all the parts and put it back together.
- [42:00]
Keke
He can do all these great things, and I don't know where he learned it from. It was just his gift.
- [42:05]
Leslie McSpadden
And Mike. Mike loved making videos.
- [42:08]
Keke
Mike had this video camera that he would record things on, and, oh, God, I could just see him on TikTok now. Like, I really can. He just was always this gadget guy, and so was my dad. So he would buy him all these things. Ipods, tripods, all kinds of stuff. Mike had a portable WI fi box that he would carry around in his backpack with him and his laptop and his game, all his electronics, so wherever he went, he could plug up and be comfortable. He had all the stuff that he needed.
- [42:38]
Leslie McSpadden
At school, Mike was part of an alternative program that allowed him to catch up on the credits he needed to graduate. While in this program, Mike was staying with his dad and didn't go to school for two weeks, leading to Leslie being charged with truancy. When she found out, she took matters into her own hands and made sure that she got Mike back on track.
- [42:56]
Keke
We had to go to family courts. I explained to them that he's been with his father for the last two weeks. I wasn't aware that he didn't enroll in the school. But moving forward, I will take my son to the school. I'll take care of it all.
- [43:09]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie doubled down on her expectations. She remembers talking to the principal, Ms.
- [43:14]
Keke
White, in that meeting. I paid for Mike's cap and gown because I knew my son was gonna graduate. I know you gonna graduate. You're going to graduate. You're going to school, and you're going to graduate. Mike started going, doing what he was supposed to do. Ms. White called me some months later, and she said, I want to let you know that Mike is caught up and he's graduating. She said, I have his diploma and I want to give it to you. And I told her no, you give it to Mike. Cause he earned it, and it's his, and I'll see it. And I was at Straub's. I left work. I got to Mike about maybe a little after three, when school let out. And I saw that vanilla folder in his hand, and I knew what was in it. He didn't know that I knew yet, but I did.
- [43:59]
Leslie McSpadden
Mike. Mike graduated from Normandy High School in the spring of 2014. Leslie was beyond proud. Things were finally starting to feel right, to feel good. Leslie was married, working a job that she enjoyed doing that she was good at. Her kids were thriving. Mike's health issues were under control, and he had just graduated from high school.
- [44:20]
Keke
Which led to him going to my mom's house for the summer, because he earned it.
- [44:25]
Leslie McSpadden
That summer, after he turned 18, an official high school graduate, Leslie let him stay at her mom's house on Canfield Drive and just hang out, which is not something he normally did, but she thought he deserved the free time. After the summer, he did start the next chapter of his life. On August 7, 2014, Leslie spoke to Mike on the phone.
- [44:48]
Keke
He called me, and he needed $20 to get. It was something he needed for his phone. I think he needed a battery pack. And I told my client that I was giving to him in two days when I got paid.
- [45:00]
Leslie McSpadden
Leslie didn't know it at the time, but that utterly mundane conversation was the last time she would ever speak to her firstborn child alive. Their final conversation was totally commonplace and devoid of anything sentimental or meaningful.
- [45:16]
Keke
Cause it was just a regular day. Like, we don't know that in two days, my son is gonna be gone.
- [45:23]
Leslie McSpadden
In many ways, this unremarkable final conversation sums up their story or the story they should have been able to live in reality. Mike. Mike was special in the way that your kid is special, the way that most kids are special in the most ordinary ways that only your own family really appreciates. And if it was up to Leslie, she would have preferred their lives remain that way. Ordinary, uneventful, mundane. Because what makes their family stick out? What makes their family exceptional? The reason we all know them, is the absolute worst reason in the whole entire world. Next week, you'll hear about the tragedy of that day directly from Mike's family.
- [46:16]
Keke
I was at the barbershop. I got a phone call from my wife.
- [46:23]
Leslie McSpadden
And she said, nettie Pooh needs you.
- [46:25]
Keke
And she's like, they shot Mike.
- [46:28]
Mike Brown
Police had it taped off. And then I seen Mike.
- [46:31]
Keke
Mike.
- [46:31]
Leslie McSpadden
And it was.
- [46:31]
Mike Brown
It was just like, I didn't see nothing else after that.
- [46:34]
Keke
Police were out there saying get it, get back, get back, get back. I just seen this big old crowd of people.
- [46:44]
Mike Brown
I was only eight but I knew.
- [46:46]
Keke
What I was seeing. You know, all I remember saying over and over and over and over and over again was why? Why?
- [46:57]
Leslie McSpadden
Why? Thanks for listening to Steal My Baby. Now is a great time to subscribe to Lemonada Premium. You'll get bonus content like unheard clips from Leslie and some of her closest friends. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or for all other podcast apps, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe. That's lemonadapremium.com still my baby is a Lemonada original podcast series created in collaboration with Campaign Zero, a nonprofit organization that develops data driven policy solutions to end police violence in America. Learn more about the series and the work of Campaign Zero and the Michael O D Brown we love our Sons and daughters foundation@www.stillmybaby.org. i'm your host, Yvette Nicole Brown. Lisa Fu is our lead producer. Bobby Woody and Ivan Koraev are our audio engineers. Story editing by Jackie Danzig, our VP of Partnerships and production. Production support by Hannah Boomershein and Muna Danish. Our music is by Hannis Brown and apm. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Leslie McSpadden. Series consulting and editorial support by our partners at Campaign Zero, DeRay McKesson and Rachel Hislop, with additional support from Jaron Longmire, Kelly Davis and Keanna Ford. If you like the show and you believe what we're doing is important, please help others find us by leaving us a rating and writing a review. And most importantly, tell your friends. Follow StillMyBaby wherever you get your podcast or listen. Ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thank you for listening. We'll be back next week. Hi, I'm Megan and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I am so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Hear new episodes each week ad free on Amazon Music. You can also ask Alexa Alexa play Confessions of a Female Founder with Megan on Amazon Music and she will want more from your favorite Lemonada Media Podcast while supporting the shows that help make life suck less. Subscribe to Lemonada Premium today. As a subscriber, you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like never before heard interviews, behind the scenes moments, bonus episodes, and so much more. It's easy to sign up no matter what podcast app you use on Apple. You can just click the Lemonada logo in the Apple podcast app and hit subscribe. For all other podcast apps, head to Lemonada supportingcast FM to subscribe. That's lemonada supportingcast FM.