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Stolen Voices of Dole Valley
LIVE - Let’s Talk About the Latest Breaks in the Warren Forrest Investigation!
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voices of Dole Valley listeners. So a lot has happened since we released our last episode and we're so excited to bring you an update. Our team was honored to be invited by the National Women's Coalition Against Violence and Exploitation to sit down and talk about the Warren Forrest case. At this event, we announced there's movement in the case because of our investigation. Good evening. This is a recording of part of that event. How is everybody doing? I'm Michelle Bart. I am the founder and CEO of the National Women's Coalition Against Violence and Exploitation. Most people know us as NW Cave. We've been here almost two decades, providing services to crime victims, victims of domestic violence, sexual assault, human trafficking, bullying, and a lot of gun violence. Recently, we were introduced to Star Lara, who you're going to meet tonight. In 2009, years before we were a nonprofit, she needed a website for Jamie Grissom, her sister, who went missing on December 7, 1971. I didn't ask how we were going to do it. I didn't ask who was going to pay for it. I know coding, so I did it. And Star has been family to my mom, Donna and myself ever since. But our hands are tied no matter what we do as a nonprofit, if the system fails, there's nothing we can do for our clients. And this case is one of those cases. We need you and all of your networks to make sure that Warren Forrest knows what we're doing because he's pushing 80 years old and we want to make sure he can tell us where all these victims are before he leaves this earth. We ask that you go and subscribe to the podcast Stolen Voices of Dole Valley on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, wherever you listen to your podcasts, rate the show, review the show. Listening just doesn't do it. We need to be working together. And now, please welcome the team that brought you Stolen Voices of Dole Valley, Carolyn Osorio and Brandon Morgan.
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C
Evening, everybody. Welcome. I'm Brandon Morgan. I'm the producer of the show Stolen Voice of the Dole Valley. This is my producing partner, journalist, host of the show, writer of the show. The show exists because of her. This is Carolyn Osoria.
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D
Thank you everyone for being here tonight.
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C
Right now there are at least five unsolved missing and murder cases in Clark county waiting for justice. Jamie Grissom, Barbara Derry, Diane Gilchrist, Gloria Knutson and Carol Valenzuela. Well, we have some exciting developments since the launch of the podcast and we're going to go over them tonight. So let's get started. It's my pleasure to introduce to you our moderator, Dan Tilkin. Dan, come on up here.
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D
Brandon really wanted to call him Dan the Man.
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C
I wanted to do a WWF thing, but I didn't.
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A
There you go. Thank you all for having me. So I used to work for Channel 2 for 16 years. Then I went over to Channel 6 for 10 years and then I retired two years ago. This story is probably the thing I'm most proud of in my entire 30 year career. So this is a big deal for me to be here, so I appreciate it. We're going to have some Q and A in a little bit, but I want to introduce obviously Star. On the far left there we have one of the strongest people I've ever met in my entire life, Norma Countryman. And on the far right here we have a man who's come to a little bit of fame through being very, very involved with the Golden State Killer. Solving that. His name is Paul Holes. So Star, I'll never forget it. I worked for Channel 2, but I was at the Columbian at the time at a bureau in the Colombian and I did this news story about what we turned out to be the Fly Creek Jane Doe. And I get back to my desk and my phone rings and it was hard for people to find the phone number at the bureau. And like who's got this phone number? And it's her. And she says, hi, my name is Star Lore and I think that's my sister. I'm like, excuse me. And so that started this 20 year ish odyssey. I still don't know what year it was. 2004, 2005, somewhere around that time. But Starr and I would do stories every once in a while and it was frustrating because how do you advance a story where there's no information? And then somebody gave me a big treasure trove of documents and in those documents it revealed a lot. And I was able to continue to do a story every once in a while. I'll never forget it. I was on the Oregon coast covering, I think, a landslide. Maybe Highway 26 was closed. And my phone rings, and it's Starr. And I do not have time to deal with Star right now. I am on deadline. I'm in the middle of nowhere. I can't believe she's actually reached me by cell phone, because cell phones weren't that great back then. And I answer, hey, Star, what's up? Pretending as though I'm not completely stressed out. She's like, they lost her. They lost her. I said, what are you talking about? They lost her? Star, slow down. What are you talking about? The girl in Dole Valley, the one I think is Jamie, they lost her. Bones. What are you possibly talking about? And sure enough, I called the medical examiner's office and the sheriff's office, and, like, yeah, we lost her. And the medical examiner's office was so nonchalant about it, nonplussed. It was very disturbing. As a reporter, I'm in a tough place because you're only as good as your sources. And if you make people upset, guess who doesn't want to help you out in the future? And so I kind of put Star off for as long as I could, but she's tenacious, and, hey, she keep calling me back. So finally I realized, this is Dan. This is your job to hold the powerful accountable. And so I started asking questions. And we have a story from KATU that I did that kind of encapsulates part of this.
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D
I remember what she was wearing.
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Star, Laura's big sister, Jamie.
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D
She's wearing a red and white striped blouse with puffy sleeves.
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Left their foster mother's house and went to Fort Vancouver High School, but she never came home.
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D
I said, something's wrong.
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It was December 7, 1971. Starr was told that Jamie simply ran away.
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D
You know, I just kept staring out the picture window.
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Jamie was 16. Six months after Jamie disappeared, her identification was found right here. It was discovered by a neighbor picking up trash on Dole Valley Road in very remote northeast Clark County. Then two years later, another neighbor walking up this logging road discovered the remains of two women. One of them was identified as Carol Valenzuela. The other has never been identified. Clark county detectives have long thought that suspected serial killer Warren Forrest is responsible for the deaths of the two women found here. This sheriff's office document says they also suspect that Jamie Grissom is the first victim of Warren Forrest. But they've never been able to match Jamie to the unidentified remains. Star lore was Excited to learn the detective was trying again to match DNA on hair found where the bodies were dumped. When she got the news that crime lab couldn't do it, she urged the detective to re examine the skeleton itself.
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He tells me, Starr, there are no remains. I said, what do you mean? He said, they lost him. And that was a huge shock to me. I said, what do you mean? He said, well, you know, you gotta understand, things were different back then.
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The Clark County Sheriff's office wonders if the remains found here were sent on to the task force investigating the Green river killer. Maybe they were donated to an anthropologist who used to teach at Clark College. Or maybe they were lost throughout the years when the medical examiner moved its offices. Bottom line, when the detectives searched the medical examiner's evidence room for the remains, they weren't there.
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D
In my mind, that girl, you know, just was connected to Jamie. I don't know if it was her or not, but I can't prove it either way now.
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And now Star Laura has to hope for a break in the case from an unexpected source 40 years later and counting. Dan Tilkin, K2 News. So I remember that this treasure trove of documents, I had this said There was a Dr. Snow in there and the remains had been sent to him. So I call Texas. I had this lead in Texas, and I call the crime people in Texas. Like, I think you mean Dr. Clyde Snow. I go, yes, and he's now in Oklahoma. And So I googled Dr. Clyde Snow. And Dr. Clyde Snow is famous. Dr. Clyde Snow, he's been on a lot of different TV shows and he's involved in the JFK autopsy. He's also involved in trying to prove whether Bushcat's Cassidy and the Sundance Kid were killed in Bolivia. I think it is. But very famous guy. And I call him up and he was in his 90s at the time. He said, yes, I remember that. Remember this from 1980. And he says, can I have a couple days and check my notes? And he called me back and he said, yeah, I have here a note here. I sent the remains back to Clark county and 1980. So armed with that information, which isn't a lot of information, Starr and I shamed the medical examiner into looking again. And they miraculously found the bones, which they didn't announce for quite a while. And when they announced it, they didn't really give the full context of how they found the bones, why they were looking for the bones and et cetera. It was very. Let's call it interesting. So, Norma, it took me years to get Norma to talk to me. I called her and I left her messages. And I don't think you ever returned any of my messages. I think I finally met you in person for the first time in court. Saying you've been through hell is an understatement. How do you find the strength to be here?
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E
It's just who I am. You just don't sit down and cry about it. You just get up and do it. You go on. Because what other choice do you have? No other choice.
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A
One of the mistakes that I would often make in reporting the story, and sometimes I would catch my mistake and sometimes I wouldn't, is I'd always say that Warren Forrest is suspected of. And the number changed a lot. I go back and I like, well, that's a different number anyway, that he had seven women who were his victims. You were 15. You were a teenager. You were a kid.
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E
I was.
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I think a lot of people. Part of this whole Warren Forrest conundrum is these were kids who he victimized, and that that gets got lost. And I don't think I did a good job in conveying that and reinforcing that. But that's part of his evilness.
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E
It wasn't just that. We were kids. Carolyn hit it right on the head. We were throwaways. We were people, girls, young girls that nobody would ever miss. He never, ever in his evil mind, considered that we were somebody's daughter, somebody's sister, somebody's mother. We were nothing. We were garbage just to be discarded, used for his pleasure and discarded. That's where his mindset was, Star.
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That's what he thought
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exactly. You.
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I. I live near where he took you. And every time I drive by there, I look over at that road and I look over that field, and I think about you and what you went through with your ankles tied and the strength that you found to save yourself. And then you weren't believed, which is just unbelievable that you weren't believed.
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E
It's still very, very difficult for me to live with that today, especially learning everything that I've learned since then. The very first time I heard the testimony of the Lacamas Lake victim, the one we call Susan, I'd never heard her story from her own lips. I was kept out of the courtroom both times that she testified in 79. And when I heard her testify in 20, 23, the anger just surged because she said exactly the same thing I said. She described him exactly the same way that I had described him just three months before. She described the van. She described Everything in it. And I had said those exact words. I have lived with guilt 50 years, and I could not make him believe me. And if I had been able to make him believe me, Martha would be alive, Carol would be alive, and that poor young woman would be whole. Today, there's anger in me Even today, 50 years later, about what these people had to go through and what their families had to go through.
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A
Because.
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B
Because
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E
I'm trying to be nice here. Some person did not believe my story. He threw me away every bit as much as Forrest did
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A
when I would go out to Dole Valley and do stories. One of the things I heard several times was from neighbors out there saying they heard screams. Mr. Matson, who found Jamie's ID, which. That story you showed, the ID wasn't found right there. It turns out it was found three miles to the north. It bugs me whenever I see that. But he was out picking trash with his mother and siblings, and he found her id. And he talks about hearing a blood curdling scream. This is sooner. It's a different time of year than when your sister disappeared. So we don't know who he was talking about. But one of the things that the podcast delves into, and we're going to transition here to Carolyn and Brandon to talk about, is Mr. McClure and him stumbling across what potentially is a game changer. Do you want to dive into that?
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B
Yeah.
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C
It was a woman that Carolyn found and interviewed, and she shared this, you know, she framed it basically as folkloric with regard to her family. Like this was. It was passed down, you know, over a couple of generations, over 50 years, that this kid Doug, who was, you know, a teenager, and. And this is a family that were, like, off the grid. They lived in what, you know, they called a trapper's cabin.
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D
Right.
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C
So they weren't, like, around technology or around anything. And they had a deep seated, not hatred, but kind of distance with the police. It's like you don't call anybody, you don't say anything.
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B
You just.
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C
You keep your mouth shut and you just mind your own business. And Doug, as the story went, was coming home, I guess, maybe from hunting or checking traps, whatever. And. And the way the story went was that he saw a woman, young woman, tied to a tree in distress, like, screaming for help or whatever. And the story went that he got scared and he ran the other direction home and, like, told people. And I. I heard that story and. And I didn't, to be honest, I didn't believe it. That doesn't really. That doesn't really ring true.
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A
Yeah, I had the same reaction when several people told me. They.
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C
I'm like, yeah, you didn't get killed in the comments like I did, though.
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D
Okay, I think we have a clip of. Of what caused that. Clip 26 no, it's such an interesting
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C
story that I don't believe at all. And I need to be convinced that this kid would see a woman tied up, screaming and bloody to a tree and not go help her.
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D
But here's.
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C
Come back to the house. And now the interesting thing at the end is because they were very secretive about the family business. You don't call the cops, you don't do anything. But it's a human, and he's a human. And you see. And a girl in distress, like that casts a lot of doubt over there, that story. Okay. Interesting that he would actually see someone tied up to a tree and not say, oh, my God, what happened? Let me untie you. Let me be a human here and get you help. Who would leave someone there?
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D
I wish that we were, like, recording this as a bonus episode because I totally hear you. But then again, I also think that when you're 19 years old and you're. You see somebody in these dark woods, you're terrified. Are they still here? You know, can. Am I going to get involved in this if I'm trying to help her? Are they coming back? And you're like, I'm.
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E
I'm gonna go get help.
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D
I.
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C
Hey, what's your name?
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D
I know, I totally. I know, but.
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B
But I'll call.
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D
Does that make you doubt the story? Is that what you're.
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C
Yes, it does.
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D
That's why we need to find the guy.
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C
I understand. I get it. I totally get it. Maybe that's why he doesn't want to be found. All right, that was two years ago. We cut to today, and there's a lot of developments, but the bottom line is. And I don't kill me in the comments, that's fine. I. I don't really care, but. But they kind of echoed what Carolyn was saying was that, you know, this Brandon, he doesn't understand fight or flight or human psychology or fear, whatever. And they're right. I don't. I'm a storyteller, I'm not a psy. But one of the reveals tonight is
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A
that they found the guy.
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C
The way the story went was that he saw a woman, young woman, tied to a tree in distress. The story went that he got scared and he ran the other direction, home. And, like, told people they found this who was a kid then 50 years later and they asked him the story and, and that's not how it went. It was much more in line with how a person would, would react. He actually found her and went up to her and like tried to, I guess, wake her up, but she was already dead. He did act like a normal human being and went to help someone that he f saw in distress and didn't just run away from it. So that was, it was nice to hear and, you know, validation. Still waiting for an apology from CatLover368 if you're out there, I'm waiting.
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D
He'll wait for a long time. But that's the great thing about the podcast is discussing back and forthing how we approach the veracity of it. And we were able to share this with the sheriff's office. And here is the latest and greatest about this amazing witness and what this could mean for Star and Jamie. And so you dropped an incredible bombshell. Tell me about it.
- [21:44]
F
Yeah, well, it was a bombshell that day too. So Wally Stefan decides to go down and hang out in this grocery store. I think it was on the second or second or third day. He's sitting there and in walks Matt McClure, readily identifiable. He's just there wasn't any mistaken identity. And Wally's a pretty easygoing guy, not, not much of an intimidating person at all. He walks right up to Matt and puts it, extends his hand and says, hey, Matt, how you doing? And Matt says, oh yeah. And Wally says, you mind sitting down with me for a little bit and having a cup of coffee and very calm, very positive and sat down. I think probably spent at least 20 or 30 minutes with Wally. And you know, the basic question was, hey, do you remember, you remember back when you're telling your brother and father that you had run across a body and he was again, kind of cool, calm and collected and very detailed. Said yes, I, I remember that clearly. And basically recounts the story. He remember, remembers that it was in 1971. I'll get down attacking down the date in a minute. He didn't remember the exact date and said, yes, indeed. I had a, had a argument with his father and his brother, big shouting match. Didn't go into much detail about what the argument was over. And we do know Matt, and Matt has a drug background. We know that he has a child, he had a head injury. So he's, he's not always lucid and completely stable. But he was doing this interview and recounts that he ran, ran away from his dad ran out onto the road
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A
and
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F
ran down Dole Valley Road, and at some point he ran into the woods. He said he stumbled and fell down. And as he fell down, he looks up and sees the body of a young woman.
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D
So let me pause. Let me pause here. So that part of the story, she wasn't bloodied, tied to a tree and screaming, she was dead.
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F
That's correct. And he was quite specific about that. And Wally prompted him a little bit just to try to deal with the discrepancies that we had from the family folklore and what he was hearing. And he said, no, she was not tied to a tree. She. There was blood on her body. She was. He reached out and touched her. He was freaked out a little bit because he said he got a little bit of blood on his hands when he. When he touched her. But cold to the touch. And a few other descriptors that I don't want to describe at this point that just led us to believe There's. There's too much detail here to not have some validity to it. He said at that point he just freaked out, I think was his words, turned around, ran out of the woods, ran back up to his dad, and he was completely out of it, just shouting and screaming, I saw this body. And yada, yada, yada. So much so that he says that they called an ambulance. We haven't had any verification of that yet. Heaven dug into records to see if. If that's true, but said the ambulance came out, checked him over, calmed him down. He said it was curious to him that they didn't comment or talk about the blood that was on his hand. And then he went on, without prompting, to explain that as he was calmed down, he kept bringing this up. Yeah, there's a body down there. There's a body down. He says his dad pulled him aside and says, hey, you need to just shut up about that. They're going to think you're crazy, and if you keep that up, they're going to send you away to a mental hospital. And at that point, he said he just quit talking about it. And again, just. We didn't go into a lot of detail about over the years, but for the most part, when he decided to be quiet about it, that was for 54 years that he was quiet about it. No one's ever talked to him about it before to find out whether that was a real story or not. So he. Where he went into the woods and where approximately where we think he stumbled and saw the body is a mere 1500ft from where the grave sites of Martha Morrison and Carol Valence is located. And it's about a mile and a half north of that location where Jamie Grom's identification was found a few months after she disappeared.
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A
So it's easy to forget. And he says Jamie's name at the end there. You can think about this person in the woods as an object, but it's important to remember we're talking about your sister. And so you're the only one here who knew her. And I know you're holding out hope. You have had quite a few canine searches out there. But, Carolyn, can you talk about the thoughts of a new search?
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D
Yeah. What's incredible about this story is that it confirms for Starr that this was most likely Jamie. Based on his descriptions, she got a call from Doug saying as much. Right. So that's something that's amazing. Even if Jamie is not found when we do this search, it's something that Starr has never had. So now Jamie is linked by a witness to Warren Ford, you know, to the case, the larger case. The other thing is that these coordinates, he told Doug where he saw the body. And so now, for the first time, they'll be able to search that area, which has never been searched before. So, coming up, what's really amazing is that they're doing another search and rescue. Fortunately, I've been invited to come along to that. So we'll be filming that and having these coordinates. It's been forever, but they have these specialty dogs that are able to smell human remains from the Civil War. So it feels like a long shot, but it also doesn't feel like a long shot. And so it's just really exciting that we could go out there and we could find Jamie.
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A
Let's bring in the last member at the far right here, Paul Holz on this panel. So, Paul, again, you. I remember when we first did this story, I was working in Channel 6, and I remember it came across the news feeds and we ran a story about the Golden State Killer, and I had never heard of him before. And now here I am standing next to the man who was at the heart of solving this through DNA genealogy. Is that true?
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B
That is correct.
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A
Okay, explain what you do so well.
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B
I spent 27 and a half years working in law enforcement. I was in a very unusual position that I was initially hired as a forensic scientist, and then my sheriff's office required that. Once I moved into the criminalistics unit, I had to become a sworn officer. So I ended up going to the police academy. Coming back in and was assigned to the old serology unit, like ABO testing, et cetera, as well as doing CSI work. But during my training, I worked in all the various forensic disciplines and then ultimately promoted up. Promoted up way too high, became the division commander. Got bored out of my skull, you know, managing the forensic services division. But when I became a sworn officer in 1994, I became fascinated with cold cases and serial predators. So I started digging into my county's unsolved cases. And it just so happens, you know, the East Bay, Bay area, California, back in the 1970s, it was off the hook with serial predators. And the very first case I stumbled across later became known as the Golden State Killer. But I've worked many, many serial predator cases. And in the Golden State Killer case, this was utilizing technology to identify an unknown offender. But I've also worked cases that are similar in this situation where there is an identified offender. But now it's, how can we prove that these other cases are tied to him? So Carolyn reached out to me. I had never heard of the Warren Forrest case, of course, but as soon as I heard the details, it was like, okay, this is my wheelhouse. And then I had met with the current sheriff's investigators and then ultimately flew out. And we had a very intense debrief, if you will, as to where they were at in their investigation, as well as what kinds of forensic evidence and forensic testing could be pursued.
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C
And in.
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B
In this particular case, of course, after 50 years, it's not unusual for evidence to be destroyed either through direct action, because you can think this, you know, Warren Forest was in essence, committed to a mental hospital. And so evidence associated with that case, eventually, you know, the courts are going to destroy or the property room, through just routine processing, is going to get rid of it. And so, of course, I become more and more disheartened as we're talking. And it's like, oh, they don't have this, they don't have that. But what they do have is what they called sweepings from his blue van. And these sweepings contain about 70 hairs. And so you imagine if you have a victim that is, let's say, bound inside this van, it's possible the victim's hair is present within these sweepings. It just so happens that the type of technology that my team used to identify Joseph d' Angelo as a Golden State Killer, well, this technology has the sensitivity to be able to get to DNA from hair. Now, we've always been able to get DNA from the root of the hair. You forcibly Remove your, you know, your hair from your head, and you see that little white plug? That's tissue. That's a whole bunch of DNA. Where we've always struggled is with hairs that just naturally fall out. These are what we call telogen hairs. Well, the technology for the genealogy tool that we use to catch the Golden State killer, it can actually get DNA profiles from these hair fragments that don't have a root. And so this is the exciting thing, is that if we do have a situation where we have identified victims and we have DNA sources from family members of those identified victims, then we can do a direct comparison. But how many victims does War and Forest have that we don't know their identities? And so this is where the genealogy tool can come in, where if we get a DNA profile from a hare and it's not one of the individuals that we think is a War and Forest victim, we can now go and identify whose hair that is. Now, with that being said, 70 hairs, in an ideal world, you want to test all of them. It is cost prohibitive. I mean, this is. You're literally looking at about a million dollars in order to test 70 hairs. DNA testing is extraordinarily expensive. So my role is working with the investigators is to come up with a way to prioritize these hairs as the ones that, based off of their characteristics, based off of wherever they were found in the van, et cetera, which ones are the most likely to produce a result. And so that's what I've been working with the sheriff's investigators that they pursued to find funding in order to be able to test, you know, roughly, we're looking at maybe testing about 10 of the hairs initially. And so they're in the process of trying to find funding in order to do the genealogy side. But then yesterday I got an update, and I'm permitted to be able to say this is that the FBI has stepped up, and the FBI is now seeing what they can do with their forensic resources in order to be able to help prioritize the hares and initially pursue, at least on some of the hares, mitochondrial DNA testing to see is there a direct match to any of the known victims. And potentially just having knowing behind the scenes, once the FBI is involved. The FBI does have resources to do genealogy in which the company, my employer, othram, could potentially be the entity that the FBI would send the remaining hares that need to be tested out of the initial group to see if genealogy can be successful. So there is now sort of a mechanism in place for Clark County Sheriff's office to try to step through the forensic testing and see if we can find, you know, either show that some of these, let's say, missing girls were in his van, but also identify potential other victims. And part of that is the Valenzuela case. Because the Valenzuela case, from an investigative and circumstantial aspect, is the strongest case right now. And if there's physical evidence that does come back to show, yes, there's hairs in Warren Forrest's van that match DNA to Valenzuela, now you have a case that potentially could be charged and now Warren Forrest could be held accountable for another murder.
- [35:48]
A
So we could continue all night pushing information at you at this time, if you have questions, I can come around to you and hold the microphone up and we can get it started. We have a question right here in the front row.
- [36:03]
D
Can you go after the deputy that did not believe you?
- [36:06]
A
Can you go after the deputy who did not believe you? She asked.
- [36:11]
E
I really doubt it. It was his opinion, you know, he didn't, he wasn't held accountable for his opinion. So I don't, I don't see, see, I don't see 50 years later that they're going to do that. And honestly, I don't care. I feel vindicated. I feel vindicated through all of the information that we have gotten that I was able to help convict him of Christa's murder by connecting Christa's remains to the Lacamus Lake victim. Because he changed his MO after I got away. And that's enough for me. I, I'm still angry with him. I'm still holding him accountable for Martha, for Carol and for the Lacamas Lake victim. But I don't think that there's any recourse at all. I can just continue.
- [37:06]
C
Did you listen to the show? So it wasn't just that he didn't believe her. He concocted this whole story. Oh, your boyfriend roughed you up so your parents wouldn't know what you did. Yeah, it was ridiculous.
- [37:18]
E
That was it exactly. I was, I was a juvenile delinquent just trying to get out of trouble.
- [37:24]
A
Another question. Okay, so I should introduce this gentleman here. This is Larry Helledge. Larry is the brother in law of Carol Valenzuela. You can either sit or you can stand up so people can see your face. You said they did the same thing to your brother. So this is Carol's husband? My brother, yes. When she came up missing, they.
- [37:47]
D
All they did is focus on my brother.
- [37:49]
A
They had him in There every day as long as they could. Legally, they didn't even open the newspaper.
- [37:55]
D
If they would have opened a newspaper, they would have seen all these other
- [37:57]
A
girls come up missing.
- [37:59]
D
But they didn't know that.
- [38:00]
A
They just, their total focus was on my brother. As you all probably know, stranger on stranger crime is pretty rare. It's usually somebody that you know. So that would make sense for a while. Distract. Yeah. But you know, other girls are coming up missing. Why did they just keep looking at my brother? Why don't they just open a newspaper? Not to put you on the spot if you don't want to answer this, you certainly don't. But this has, I think is the right term, put a cloud over your family for years. Absolutely.
- [38:36]
E
This is what I mean when I say that they were far reaching victims. It just wasn't just the young ladies that he took, it was their families. The ripple effect. My daughter was affected by what happened to me. She lived, growing up and especially in her teenage years with me being a strict mother and she had never done anything to warrant that. But the ripple effect had that effect on my family just like it had on Larry's family.
- [39:10]
A
Yeah, I stopped being a child at 14. Ten months after they found my sister Carol. Someone raped and murdered my girlfriend Joe. Carol Sanders. They found her remains 10 months later at the Carols. And I still have family accusing my brother of this. Families who need to communicate, you know, don't just blow it off, don't walk away. I ran away from the 50 years because it hurt and I didn't know
- [39:39]
D
how to deal with that.
- [39:42]
A
One of the themes about this whole situation, it's why I called him the forgotten serial killer, is because times were different. People didn't talk about this. And once he went away for the murder of Krista Blake, people moved on. Staffing is difficult. People are constantly committing crimes and he, he got forgotten about and families suffered. Okay, question, Raise your hand. Where's the question?
- [40:16]
F
There we go.
- [40:17]
D
First, I would like to say I'm so sorry that this happened to you and thank you for all the people who are working to bring back the voices and unfortunately it still exists today. I'm sorry, it's been 50 years. That sounds like it should be a long, long time in history and it still happens today. I do not think that it's your fault that the officer did not believe you. I'm so sorry. With the way that you looked. It is absolutely horrible that you were not heard and I'm so sorry.
- [41:00]
E
Thank you very much for that. I Appreciate it more than you will know. And I have let go of the guilt when I did finally realize, especially after Martha Morrison's trial, when I finally heard this story straight from the Lacamus Lake victim, that there was nothing I could have done to change his mind. He did not do his job. That was the long and short of it. He just did not do his job. He didn't do any investigating. He just wrote me off. He didn't talk to any of the employees. He didn't ask any questions of anybody. That is on him, completely, 100% on him. And if he were sitting in this audience today, I would look him in the eye and tell him what I thought about him, because he just didn't do his job.
- [41:54]
A
Okay.
- [41:55]
E
I wanted to ask Starr if she knows why it took so long for them to let you know they found her belongings.
- [42:04]
D
That's a very good question. I wonder that myself, but I'm not sure who I would ask about that. But I think part of it was I was 14 when she disappeared, appeared, and 19 when they told me. And I just think during that time I was like her only family. So they didn't maybe want to tell me because I was still a child. That's all the reasoning I can give to that, but it's a good question. Thank you.
- [42:39]
A
Some perspective on life back then. It was.
- [42:44]
B
Told me.
- [42:44]
A
I don't know, Denny, if you told me this or it was. Maybe it was Fred Niemann at the sheriff's office. So, Dan, you have to understand that back then we would show up at a crime scene and there'd be deputies standing around and be like, you, you're the detective on this. And they didn't have formal training like they do now and have had for years. And they would put evidence in the back of the trunk of their squad car and they would carry it around for weeks or months. And I thought I was going to be called as a defense witness for his trial because I had done news stories on how they used to handle evidence. And so I thought they were going to call me to the stand and run my news stories with the sheriff's office, you know, talking about chain of custody and how kind of willy nilly things were, or at least informal they were. But that. That didn't happen. So. But it's very, very different. Was it you, sir? The question here. I don't want to knock your coffee over here, Paul. I know that the d' Angelo person was caught in part related to genealogy. Genealogy, genetic testing, correct?
- [44:01]
B
That is correct.
- [44:02]
A
But the laws have changed now so that when people do genetic testing for their ancestry or other reasons, you have to opt in for the police to access those tests, correct?
- [44:12]
B
Yes, that is correct.
- [44:13]
A
And is that something. I mean, that seems like a mistake to me. Do you have any perspective on that? Because that would really help solve a lot of cold cases, wouldn't it, if you were automatically opted in and you had to opt out if you didn't want to have.
- [44:28]
B
Sure. You know, and most certainly if law enforcement had access to the the largest genealogy databases like Ancestry.com and 23andMe, there could be many more cases solved. You know, law enforcement right now there's two genealogy websites that permit law enforcement to search them to help solve cases. And what you are talking about is that when people upload their DNA profiles into these databases, it's family tree DNA and GEDmatch, they have to explicitly opt in and say, yes, I want law enforcement to be able to search against my DNA profile to see if a relative of mine is potentially involved in an unsolved case. These other genealogy websites such as Ancestry, refuse law enforcement access. And there has been discussion if law enforcement could compel them either through a federal grand jury subpoena or a state warrant or something like that. But the reality is, because of the sensitivity of the issue and there's a lot of misperception, I, as a law enforcement officer never had access to anybody's genetic information in these genealogy websites. I just get information about how much DNA they share with the person, like the Golden State Killer I'm looking for. And that tells me how far back in time I need to build family trees using public record information like census records and obituaries and findagrave.com in order to be able to utilize the tool. But right now we know, like when I talk to law enforcement, you know, part of it is, you know, don't upset the apple cart. We've now are seven years post Golden State Killer. We've seen great successes with this tool and we don't need somebody to do something stupid in which now we have legislators that are going to come in and further restrict law enforcement's access.
- [46:22]
A
Okay, I uploaded my genetic data and my kids from ancestry to the common pool and opted in. I had a detective from Toronto call about a cold case.
- [46:32]
B
Well, I've literally had, I know of two cases in which the one was Othram telling me that my DNA profile was a distant match to somebody that was from the evidence. And then San Diego, San Diego hit me up and Said, hey, your name popped up.
- [46:52]
F
So.
- [46:52]
B
And at that point, I hadn't opted in because I put mine up well before this change requiring the opt in. And so this female investigator out of San Diego was like, turn yours on so I can figure out what your family tree is. Right.
- [47:07]
A
A lot of secrets hidden in some family trees. All right, what is your question?
- [47:11]
D
I want to know who the Clark county sheriff was at the time and was. Is that person that you. That did not believe you still alive?
- [47:22]
E
Yes, James Pillsbury is still alive. And I don't know who the Clark county sheriff was at the time.
- [47:28]
D
Wasn't Eugene Cotton the sheriff a long time ago, Denny?
- [47:32]
A
Yes.
- [47:33]
C
We talked to Pillsbury for the podcast, and he came right up to the line of. Of some maybe a little shame and responsibility, but. But then pulled back at the.
- [47:43]
E
I had to. I had to shame him into that with Martha's trial. He came up to me in the waiting area outside and made some comment about the case. And then I just thought he was. I'm so bad with names and faces and putting. And keeping it for all those years in my head that I had no idea who he was. And, of course, you know, you're a part of this, so my heart is with you. And I said, oh, if only I could have made him believe me. And he says, no, no, honey, that was me. I did believe you. And that. I just pulled back and looked at him and turned around and walked away. And I think he understood that I knew he didn't. So, yeah, I think I kind of helped shame him into that. And I'm glad.
- [48:30]
D
Yeah, me too.
- [48:35]
A
All right, what is your question?
- [48:37]
D
So I have a profile on Ancestry.com and 23andMe. Tell me what I need to do to make sure my DNA is available to law enforcement. I will do it tonight.
- [48:47]
B
Sure. So all these genealogy websites allow you to be able to download your own DNA profile. And it's all it is, is it's a text file. And so you can download that file and Then go to gedmatch.com and then upload. Create an account, and you can upload it and opt in. And now your DNA can be searched. That profile can be searched to see if somebody related to you is somebody that law enforcement is looking for.
- [49:16]
A
Okay, what's your question? My question's more about the podcast itself.
- [49:20]
D
How did you discover this story, and how did you choose to tell this story? You know, I was told about this story because I was doing a regional true crime podcast at the time. I had been A reporter at Kyra Radio and wanted to get into podcasting. After I heard the Cold podcast, which, if you haven't heard or listened to it, it's amazing. And along this journey, I heard the name Morne Forest, and I was like, I'm surprised because I live near Seattle. And I was surprised that I'd never heard the name Warren Forest. But then as I kind of dug into it and I, of course, Star and Norma, like, I like you, many of you. When I saw Norma, I just couldn't believe. I was like, how was she not believed? And Star, with her tenacity for her sister, you know, I'm a little sister. I was really close with my sister, and I just, it just kind of struck me really deeply about this bond and especially with them being foster kids and what that meant, to lose that and to be denied. Like, I'm always attracted to stories where people just don't give up. They have grit, especially, you know, women, you know, in the face of all of these things, nothing against men, but women and children, when they're not believed, it's just, it raises something within me. And both of these women were just my inspiration. And so it took me probably about eight months and Dan can attest to this, to really understand the interworkings of the case and then how to tell the story. Our partners, KSL Podcasts, lemonada Media. You know, I always talk about, I always mention them because it really has taken a village. And of course, my producing partner Brandon, who's always like, he's cracking jokes and he's saying, how cat 344. But, like, there's a lot that's gone on behind the scenes about, like, how we put the show together. And I'm really proud of the work that we've done. And it really took all of us here and you all here tonight.
- [51:51]
A
Where's the question?
- [51:53]
D
In awe of, you know, you people doing as much as you've done to bring this to light. And I just, you know, in the 70s, I remember, I'm just, you know, I'm 78 years old in the 70s who cared about women, especially the police. I've had it.
- [52:08]
E
I've had more than one time that
- [52:10]
D
know I was just dismissed because you're just a woman, you know, big deal. And, and, and it just made me angry. And I just wanted to, to express my
- [52:22]
E
thank you very much.
- [52:23]
D
And it still goes on every day. Yeah. And I'm just really proud of you that you've done what you've done and to bring it to my attention and. And just wanted to thank you. Thank you. I'm glad you're there, Daniel.
- [52:40]
A
So for the detectives in the group, I'm wondering what role AI is starting to play in the research as a
- [52:50]
D
tool for the work that you do.
- [52:52]
B
Yeah, you know, this is kind of a. We're on sort of the cusp of how AI can be used, you know, and I'm focusing in not just not talking in law enforcement in general, but let's say these unsolved cases and now the ability. You know, obviously with 1970s case, this was all paper, you know, handwritten sometimes, you know, and you have to be able to scan it, digitize it. But now there's AI aspects that can digest this information and possibly see linkages that us as a human don't necessarily make a golden state killer. You combine all the case files together, that was 15,000 pages. How do you keep track of all of that data? So that's where I can kind of see where AI is going to be coming in. I know, like what I do, you know, in terms of crime scene reconstructions and really kind of going after the harder cases to see what we can do to solve the case. I don't know how AI is going to impact something like that. You know, right now I'd like to say there's always going to need to be somebody who has developed experience and expertise versus just turning it over to a computer.
- [54:02]
E
But who knows?
- [54:02]
B
I could be replaced someday.
- [54:06]
A
I think we're going. That's the end of the Q and a.
- [54:10]
D
Thank you, Mr. Tilkin. Dan, you rock. It really, really rocks. Let's thank all of our guests. Any last words? Paul?
- [54:28]
B
Having worked cold cases for as long as I have, I think what we're witnessing here tonight is that I've seen within law enforcement, I've even heard forensic staff say something. Well, they've waited this long. They can continue to wait. And these are people that are not interacting with the families and the victims that have actually suffered at, you know, the horrific acts of these offenders. And I think it just really underscores tonight that for the families and for the victims, it may have been 50 years, but it's like it was yesterday. And us as public servants, we have a responsibility to those families to get an answer and to see if justice can be sought.
- [55:11]
D
Dan, any last thoughts?
- [55:14]
A
Star and I, one of the things we're most proud of is we got his conjugal visits taken on way,
- [55:26]
D
Which shouldn't be a thing. Tax dollars.
- [55:30]
A
It should not have been a thing.
- [55:32]
D
Cut it off, you know, remember that. Yeah, it's been a. It's the visits.
- [55:36]
B
Everything.
- [55:37]
A
Eight years. No, I meant the visits.
- [55:41]
D
Carolyn, any last thoughts? You know, I just want to really thank Michelle for doing such a great job. And she has really. I mean, when you talk about Spitfire, this woman has been dashing here, dashing there, and it's just been incredible to partner with you, to be a part of it. And of course, I have to say, KSL Podcast, Lemonade Media, they do so much. It's been such a honor to be telling through them their stories. And of course, as I said, Brandon and Paul Holz, thank you so much everybody for being here. As things develop in the case, we will update with bonus episodes and continue to tell this story as it rolls out. And as Michelle mentioned, if you like this podcast and care about this case, please give us a rating and write a review. It really helps more people hear about the victims of Warren Forest. And thank you so much for listening. For more on Stolen Voices of Dole Valley, including pictures, or to contact the show, find us on social at Stolen Voices Pod or Visit our website stolenvoicespod.com Stolen Voices of Dole Valley is researched, written and hosted by me, Carolyn Osorio. Production, sound design and many mixing by Trent Sell. Produced for Pie in the Sky Media by Brandon Morgan. My personal thanks to Ben Kiebrick for his thoughtful and inspired edits. A special thanks to Dave Colley, Amy Donaldson, Andrea Smarten, Ryan Meeks and Jenny Ament. Main musical score composed by Alison Leighton Brown with Lemonada Media executive producers Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Wittleswax and for KSL Podcasts executive producer Cheryl Worsley. Stolen Voices of Dole Valley is a production of Pie in the Sky Media, KSL Podcasts and Lemonada Media.