Serial Killer Consultant

Summary

Stolen Voices of Dole Valley – Episode: Serial Killer Consultant
Released: November 11, 2025 | Host: Carolyn Osorio (Lemonada Media)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Stolen Voices of Dole Valley — titled "Serial Killer Consultant" — explores the chilling overlap between the crimes of notorious serial killers Ted Bundy and the Green River Killer (GRK) in the Pacific Northwest during the 1970s and 80s. The episode intricately recounts how Bundy, years after his capture, attempted to position himself as a “serial killer consultant” for the detectives hunting the GRK, leveraging his infamy, psychological insight, and manipulative prowess in a chilling game of cat-and-mouse with law enforcement desperate for answers. The episode also details the difficulties investigators faced, the suspects they pursued, the systemic problems that let these killers prosper, and the tragic experiences of victims and families caught in the storm.

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Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. The Pacific Northwest’s Dark Legacy (03:08 – 05:15)

• Establishes how serial killers like Ted Bundy and, later, the Green River Killer cast a lasting shadow over the region.
• Bundy’s methods and the shock to the community as his true nature as a charming predator is revealed.

Notable Quote:
“Nobody saw what he would later call his entity. The reptilian brain of a serial killer devoid of remorse...”
— Carolyn Osorio, (10:40)

2. Ted Bundy’s Crimes and Tactics (03:08 – 08:51)

• Detailed recount of Bundy’s abductions and murders, relying on charm and props (casts, crutches) to disarm victims.
• Bundy’s own cold recounting of his actions during interviews with law enforcement.

Notable Quote:
“She had a Spanish test the next day and she thought that I had taking her to help tutor me for a Spanish test...”
— Ted Bundy (interview audio as quoted by Detective Reichert), (07:18)

3. Enter: Bundy as “Consultant” to The Green River Task Force (09:05 – 14:39)

• Bundy, eager to assert his criminal legacy, offers help to authorities from his death row cell, hoping to delay his execution.
• Detectives Robert Keppel and Dave Reichert travel to Florida to meet Bundy, aware of his manipulative potential.

Notable Quote:
“There’s sort of a competition between him and what he called the Riverman.”
— Detective Dave Reichert, (09:13)

Notable Moment:
Reichert weighs the moral dilemma of shaking Bundy’s hand:
“When I first met him, I didn’t want to shake his hand... how many lives has he really taken with that hand I just shook?”
— Detective Dave Reichert, (14:20)

4. Bundy’s Manipulations and Insights (21:05 – 28:31)

• Bundy, physically diminished but psychologically formidable, attempts to ingratiate himself with investigators.
• He leverages his understanding of police limitations, runaway laws, and systemic failures, highlighting why runaways were prime targets.
• Provides uncannily accurate behavioral analysis of the GRK (“Riverman”), including the likely disposal patterns and characteristics of the killer.

Notable Quotes:
“I noticed that he played with the food on his tray... He didn’t eat a thing, just played with the food.”
— Detective Dave Reichert, (21:05)

“He’s so far ahead of us, it’s unreal.”
— Detective Dave Reichert, (22:58)

On the killer’s compulsion:
“Unless he got... filled with the holy spirit in a very real way... He’s either moved, he’s dead or he’s doing something very different.”
— Detective Dave Reichert (channeling Bundy’s thoughts), (24:36)

Bundy’s advice to police:
“But God forbid, someday he... starts dumping them all down the well... At least you can start finding fresh bodies.”
— Detective Dave Reichert (quoting Bundy), (28:10)

5. The Human Toll of Investigation – Suspects, Public Pressure, and False Leads (33:18 – 38:56)

• The public and media frenzy around suspects such as Bill McLean (a local trapper), who was wrongly accused, hounded by media and neighbors, and eventually exonerated.
• Difficulties balancing transparency with investigative secrecy, and the harm caused by public misidentification of suspects.

Notable Moment:
Press frenzy described with “80 cameras outside the precinct... now you’ve got him in the precinct with, quote, unquote, a possible Green River suspect.”
— Retired Sgt. Steve Davis, (35:39)

6. Evolving Investigative Technology and Methods (38:06 – 39:56)

• Transition from analog records to computers (the VAX computer) marks advancement, but still primitive by modern standards (manual pattern-finding).

Notable Quote:
“We could only put input data. It didn’t make any comparisons or correlations... We had to print the information out, lay the printouts on the floor and go through each printout with a highlighter...”
— Detective Dave Reichert, (38:56)

7. The “Truck Painter” – Building a Case (42:36 – 62:36)

• Introduction of a key suspect known as the “truck painter,” tied by circumstantial and behavioral evidence to multiple cases.
• Includes witness accounts, police polygraph issues, and connections uncovered with the new computer system.
• In-depth interviews with his ex-wife Marsha and other family, revealing disturbing behavior, controlling tendencies, and assaults that foreshadow his suspected crimes.

Notable Moment:
Describing the truck painter’s sexual violence:
“He liked to sneak up on me and scare me... he was always coming up behind me and taking me in this arm type of hold... always doing that...”
— Marsha, ex-wife, (57:01 to 57:50)

8. Family Dynamics, Victims, and Psychopathy (62:26 – End)

• His mother, Mary, describes her son as "above reproach" and oblivious to his dark side.
• Next episode teased: exploration of his childhood violence towards animals and his first potentially deadly assault on a child.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Bundy on meeting law enforcement as 'consultant':
  “Try not to get used by him. He always has an agenda.” (Warden’s advice), (13:56)

• Bundy’s chilling emotional detachment:
  “No, the only difference between Mary’s grave and the others was that he probably had a shovel in the truck.”
  — Bundy’s answer on possible remorse, (31:29)

• On police work and the system’s flaws:
  “Missing juvenile problem is that nobody gives a shit and especially nobody gives a darn about runaway juveniles.”
  — Detective Dave Reichert, channeling Bundy, (22:19)

• On media impact:
  “The media was helpful... but they also hurt us... people said, well, if they’re incompetent, why should we call and report any possible information?”
  — Detective Dave Reichert, (37:08)

• False suspects and public damage:
  “Bill McLean wasn’t their man... he was completely innocent... no arrest was ever made. None of the evidence... tied him to the case.” (36:30)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction and historical context: 03:08 – 05:15
• Bundy recounts his crimes: 05:42 – 08:51
• Detectives meet Bundy (Florida): 09:05 – 14:39
• Bundy’s psychological insights: 21:05 – 28:31
• False suspects and media circus: 33:18 – 38:56
• Data, computers, and the 'truck painter': 38:06 – 42:36
• Ex-wife Marsha’s revelations: 47:14 – 60:35
• Mother’s defense and family denial: 62:26 – 63:44
• Preview of next episode (first deadly assault): 64:33 – 65:29

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Episode Tone and Language

The host, Carolyn Osorio, adopts an investigative, sometimes empathetic tone, interjecting analysis with narrative storytelling. Interviews with police and victims’ families are personal, raw, and revealing, maintaining the speakers’ voices and emotional weight. The chilling detachment in Bundy’s own words is faithfully preserved, contrasting with the haunted determination of detectives and survivors.

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Final Thoughts

This episode showcases not just the crimes and investigation, but the systemic failures, family tragedies, and psychological warfare that made the GRK case infamously difficult. Bundy’s interactions with law enforcement serve as a dark mirror for both the killer they sought and the institutions that struggled to keep up. The haunting overlap of predatory violence and police frustration is underscored by the firsthand stories of those who lost loved ones, as well as those who just barely survived. The episode closes with a foreboding look ahead, promising even deeper revelations into the making of a killer.

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For more episodes and content from Stolen Voices of Dole Valley, visit Lemonada Media.

Transcript

[Carolyn Osorio]

This message is sponsored by Greenlight. So I have five kids and as they get older I can tell you that parts of parenting get easier. Like it's really fun discussing their interest now that they've stretched beyond their favorite dinosaurs. They can grab their own snacks and they might even clean up after themselves on a good day. But I've figured out a way to improve those odds with Greenlight. Greenlight is a debit card and money app made for families pay. Parents can send money to their kids and keep an eye on kids spending and saving while kids and teens build money, confidence and lifelong financial literacy skills. That sounds fabulous and well intentioned, but in the trenches. As a parent, what I love most about the Greenlight app is that it includes a chores feature which guarantees I get some help around the house because I remember only too well. My parents tried teaching me the value of hard work, but the lesson only really stuck. Let's face it, when I got paid to do the work and as I mentioned having five kids, I only wish I would have started using Greenlight sooner because Greenlight makes it easy and convenient for parents to raise financially smart kids and for families to navigate life together. Maybe that's why millions of parents trust and kids love learning about money on Greenlight, the number one family finance and safety app. Don't wait to teach your kids real world money skills. Start your risk free Greenlight trial today@greenlight greenlight.com Stolen Voices that's greenlight.com Stolen Voices to get started greenlight.com StolenVoices DC911 what is your emergency? Ten years ago, one of Washington DC's most notorious and violent crimes, Darren Wint.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Is charged with 20 counts including those for the murder of Amy Savas, Philip Savopoulos and Vera figueroa.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Now in 22 hours a second look, the fourth season of our award winning podcast American Nightmares. I'm returning to revisit that unforgettable case experience. New interviews, unseen perspectives and one of the Savopolis surviving daughters, Abigail speaking for the first time since the tragedy you.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Try and come up with.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Oh, it could be anything else.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Not the worst case scenario.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Search American Nightmares Wherever you get your podcasts. Lemonada this series contains adult language and descriptions of graphic violence. Throughout listener discretion is advised. The so called Green River Killer was not the first serial killer to absolutely reign terror across the Pacific northwest in the 20th century century. Just a decade earlier, college boy Theodore Bundy released what he would refer to as his enigma or his true nature commencing his evil deadly murder spree. The Difference was that Bundy targeted mostly college co eds in 1974. And at one time, Bundy too had been an evil specter lurking quietly. But like the Green River Killer, he was flesh and blood. Because some of his victims were reportedly last seen with a young dark haired man known as Ted, who drove a tan Volkswagen Bug, a very common vehicle back in the day. The investigation into that serial killer Ted became a public health crisis when it was revealed that Janice Ott and Denise Nasland were both abducted from Lake Sammamish State park on the same hot summer day, July 14, 1974. The young women were lured away in two separate kidnappings between the hours of 10:00am and 4:30pm A witness at the park would later recall Janice Ott speaking to what was described as a preppy looking man with a distinctive arm, sling shorts and a button down shirt, saying, hi, I'm Jan. The man with the arm cast replied, hi, I'm Ted. Jan would last be seen pushing her bike alongside this man. It was then that witnesses gave a composite sketch of Ted and the man's vehicle. Here's a report from ABC regarding the disappearance of the two young women on the same day.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Each lead has to be followed. Every phone call has to be made. Most lead nowhere. Some pan out with a speck of information that may someday help clear up the mystery of the whereabouts of Janice Ott and Denise Nasland.

[Carolyn Osorio]

And In September of 1974, a grim discovery was made. The skeletal remains of Janice Ott, Denise Nasland and Georgianne Hawkins, who were recovered two miles away from Lake Sammamish in a heavily wooded area.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

One thing, since the publication of the description of the man called Ted, there have been no further disappearances from this area.

[Carolyn Osorio]

That's because Theodore Bundy, AKA Ted, had left the Seattle area to continue his killing spree throughout Utah, Colorado and Florida, where he was finally captured in 1979. He would be sentenced to death.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

This court, independent of, but in agreement with the advisory sentence rendered by the jury, does hereby impose the death penalty upon the defendant, Theodore Robert Bundy.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Bundy would later describe to Robert Keppel, the original Seattle detective assigned to catch him, how he had hunted and killed Georgian Hawkins, pulling one of his many ruses in an alley near her University of Washington sorority house.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

I was moving up the alley using a briefcase and some crutches and the young woman walked down and about halfway down the block I encountered her and asked her to help me carry the briefcase, which she did and we walked back up the alley. Basically, when I reached the car. What happened was I knocked her, knocked her unconscious with the crowbar and handcuffed her and put her in the drivers, I mean, the passenger side of the car and drove away. One of the things that makes it a little bit, among the things that makes it difficult is that at this point she was quite lucid talking about things. It's funny. It's not funny, but it's odd the kinds of things people say under those circumstances. She had a Spanish test the next day and she thought that I had taking her to help tutor me for a Spanish test. It was kind of odd as long as short of it was that I again knocked her unconscious and strangled her. Can you hear that? The Hawkins girl's head was severed and taken up the road about 25 to 50 yards and buried in a location about 10 yards west of. Of the road on a rocky hillside. By this time it was almost dawn. But on this particular morning, I was just absolutely again, just shocked, kind of scared to death, shocked, horrified. And I went down the road throwing the briefcase, the, the. The crutches, the rope, clothes, just tossing them out the window and the crowbar. Everything that goes, everything. I get mad at myself a few weeks later because I'd have to go out and buy another pair. I mean, it's not comical, but that's what would happen. This was just. I was in a sheer state of panic, of just absolute horror. You know, it's like at that point in time, consciousness of what has really happened. It's like you break out of a fever or something. I would, that is. And so I would. I drove, talk about details coming back. I couldn't find one of the shoes, so I thought it was there, but it wasn't. So I went back, this was the next day, got on my bicycle, rode back to that little parking lot. I knew there were police all over the place by that time, so I went back to that parking lot and I found both pierced ear, the pierced earrings, and the shoe laying in the parking lot. So I surreptitiously gathered them up and rode off.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Nearly four decades later, Detective Reichert shares what it was like meeting Ted Bundy when he had agreed to take him up on his offer of help to find the Green River Killer back in November of 1984.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Bundy, you know, he was getting a newspaper. He was watching what was going on up here in Seattle. And I think he was getting a little bit worried that his reputation was going to be maybe not quite to the level that he wanted it to be because Ridgeway was killing more people. And there's sort of a competition between him and what he called the Riverman.

[Carolyn Osorio]

From Pie in the Sky Media. I'm Carolyn Osorio, and this is the Shadow Girls. An in depth investigation into the victims of the Green River Killer. You're listening to episode five. Serial Killer Consultant. Few people across the Pacific northwest in the 1970s would ever forget a series of brutal rapes and grisly homicides at the hands of Ted Bundy. And his hunting grounds were in the same area as the GRK in the greater Seattle area, but his victims were from a different zip code. Back then, the community's perceptions of itself were rocked further with the revelation that Bundy had been cloaked among us, hiding behind the mask of witty repartee, good looks and charm all along. No one saw what he would later call his entity. The reptilian brain of a serial killer devoid of remorse, whose driving force was raping and murdering young women and girls 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Just like the GRK, investigators who doggedly worked the Bundy case believed the GRK would never stop until he was dead or captured. Ted Bundy was a psychopathic narcissist who reveled in his crimes, convinced he was the greatest serial killer of all time, that his murder spree was a work of art and something that could be valuable, and he schemed from his Florida jail cell. This could be an opportunity. Bundy was titillated by the GRK's killing spree and that these crimes were taking place in his old stomping ground. But Theodore Bundy perceived the GRK as a country cousin. Of course, Bundy, with an IQ of 136, putting him in the top 2% of the world, was far more superior than the GRK, but he admired his work. Thus, Bundy saw himself as invaluable to the Green River Task Force for a price. Bundy felt as a serial killer, he had special insights to offer desperate detectives, maybe a few psychological breadcrumbs that might potentially lead investigators to the grk. In return, his efforts would not only curry favor with his captors, but if his appeals didn't work out, his help as a serial killer consultant might actually save him from Old Sparky. But in the end, nothing would save Bundy from his fate. In January 1989, Theodore Bundy was executed in the electric chair at the state prison in Florida. November 17, 1984. The sun shone brightly. Detectives Dave Reichert and Robert Keppel slammed the doors of their cheap rental car. They were on a mission that had taken them thousands of miles away from the drizzly Pacific Northwest. But the pair hadn't traveled to the Sunshine State to enjoy the weather. They were on their way to the Florida State Penitentiary to interview Theodore Bundy. The main gate was flanked by a guard tower and fencing that was topped with three separate layers of razor wire. Unlike the jail and courthouse where Bundy had previously escaped, the Florida penitentiary appeared impenetrable. There was no escaping his fate as the lead investigator on the Bundy case. Robert Keppel had a history with Ted. Now, because of that experience, Keppel was a consultant on the Green River Task Force. He was on loan from his permanent job as an investigator for the Washington State Attorney General's office. Detective Dave Reichert.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

And Ted Bundy, you know, was worked by Bob Keppel. And Bob has written a couple of books on his experience in working the Ted Bundy case. But Bob also worked with us on Green River. And so, yeah, he wrote the letter, said, hey, come on down. I think that might be able to help you get into the mind of the Riverman. So Bob Kipple and I flew to Florida. We spent two and a half, three days with Bundy.

[Carolyn Osorio]

The warden greeted the two Seattle lawmen as they emptied their pockets at a security checkpoint. Be mindful of Bundy, the warden warned. Try not to get used by him. He always has an agenda. Detective Reichert's recollection of his initial encounter with Bundy began with a morality check. Do you shake the hand of a serial killer?

[Detective Dave Reichert]

You know, when I first met him, I didn't want to shake his hand, but he put his hand out there. I shook his hand. And the thing that struck me was, you know, how many lives is he really taking with that hand that I just shook? It's very. And both of them, when you look in their eyes, it is. It's just dark, empty, evil, period.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Dave says both of them. Which foreshadows the front row seat of the GRK's confession. But that would be over a decade away. On that day, Reichert and Keppel had their game faces on. They knew Bundy had just two cards left on the table. He was a convicted killer on death row, desperate to save his own skin. He might get a stay of execution if he confessed his crimes, which he wasn't ready to do then. He still had appeals. The play that day was to ingratiate himself. He wanted to earn brownie points with the Green River Task Force as a serial killer consultant. The fact that the lead investigators on what was then the largest unsolved serial killer case, were willing to fly to Florida on the county's dime to get a bead on their serial killer from a so called expert serial killer spoke volumes. They were desperate. That handshake that would test Detective Reichert's morality was just the beginning of Bundy's plan to ensnare this captive audience into his manipulative web. 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This message is sponsored by Greenlight. So I have five kids and as they get older I can tell you that parts of parenting get easier. Like it's really fun discussing their interest now that they've stretched beyond their favorite dinosaurs. They can grab their own snacks and they might even clean up after themselves on a good day. But I figured out a way to improve those odds with Greenlight. Greenlight is a debit card and money app made for families. Parents can send money to their kids and keep an eye on kids spending and saving while kids and teens build money, confidence and lifelong financial literacy skills. That sounds fabulous and well intentioned, but in the trenches. As a parent, what I love most about the Greenlight app is that it includes a chores feature which guarantees I get some help around the house because I remember only too well. My parents tried teaching me the value of hard work, but the lesson only really stuck. Let's face it, when I got paid to do the work and as I mentioned having five kids, I only wish I would have started using Greenlight sooner because Greenlight makes it easy and convenient for parents to raise financially smart kids and for families to navigate life together. Maybe that's why millions of parents trust and kids love learning about money on Greenlight, the number one family finance and safety app. Don't wait to teach your kids real world money skills. Start your risk free Greenlight trial [e-mail] stolenvoices that's greenlight.com stolen voices to get started greenlight.com stolen voices and now back to the Shadow girls. Bundy apologized for his gaunt, pale appearance. Lesser detectives might not have seen the ruse. Bundy was portraying himself as a pitiable, self effacing, weakling, someone to be trusted, not the cold blooded serial killer who sat before them.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

To me, people always describe him as this gregarious, handsome guy, but of course, in prison, he looked pretty. Pretty meek, mild, weak. He tried to come across super intelligent. He's very articulate. I noticed that he played with the food on his tray that the prison brought in for him to eat while we were interviewing him. He didn't eat a thing, just played with the food.

[Carolyn Osorio]

But they were prepared for this dance. Keppel, having worked the case, had shared crib notes with Reichert before they came. Reichert and Keppel had expected and prepped on how to handle Bundy's legendary manipulations and head games. They knew that he had used deadly ploys to ingratiate himself with his victims. For example, a sling became a prop to feign a broken arm. And similarly, crutches were used to appear that he had a broken leg. He exploited the young women's own goodness to help a stranger, gaining their trust until it was too late. Detective Reichard responded by feeding Bundy's ego how behind the eight ball they were in the investigation.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

We have two detectives that are exclusively devoted to looking at the entire missing person problem in 1984, which is quite monumental because missing juvenile problem is that nobody gives a shit and especially nobody gives a darn about runaway juveniles. So they end up with mountains of lists to go through and verify if they're home or not because nobody's cleared them. This guy's figured it out right now. Oh, I know he's figured it out. He's way ahead of us. I mean, he's so far ahead of us, it's unreal.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Even so, Bundy had keyed into something devastating at the time in Washington State, running away from home wasn't a crime. Add to that, if the parents went to police for help, they were so bogged down just trying to solve crimes. Unless there was proof that a crime had occurred against their child. Other than filing a missing persons report, there wasn't a lot that they could do. And if the runaway was a dependent of the state, the caseworker in an already overburdened system was tasked with trying to track down the child. But many kids fell through the cracks of the foster system. Bundy appeared giddy about the fact that he'd keyed into that vulnerability of the GRK's victims. It harkened back to his days of eluding capture in Washington state by exploiting systemic issues. Often, he would kidnap and murder a victim in one jurisdiction and then left their body in a different one. In this way, he used law enforcement's failure to communicate with each other to his advantage. Reviewing the tapes 40 years on, it was a very bizarre situation. The task force is play acting as is Bundy. But both sides are desperate for their own reasons. For the task force the stakes just couldn't be higher.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

A class of victims who are hard to trace and who are hard to investigate. Who disappear without being recorded. Whose movements are hard to trace, whose friends are difficult to run down. Still quite significant to me that after Mary SUV drops off like it did, I mean you haven't. Nobody has turned up yet. And I'm not saying stop like you say. There's no guarantee he stopped, but he's gotten a lot smarter. Somehow something has changed. Around October of 83 because he may not have moved. He may not have been struck by lightning. Do you think it's possible that this guy could stop? No. No. Well, unless he got. Unless he was born again and he got filled with the holy spirit in a very real way. He's either moved, he's either dead or he's either doing something very different.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Although it's hard to hear, it isn't surprising the level of callousness Bundy's descriptions are when he discusses the Riverman's victims.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Well, first of all it's no good place. He's trying to dispose of the bodies where they won't be found. This guy doesn't want to get caught. Neither does he want to have his bodies found. I think it's clear that over time you can see him at least to it here. Over time he's trying to improve the dump sites. He's trying to get better at disposing of his bodies, generally speaking. Now you can all say well he's really clumsy. I would have done it this way. But who knows under his with the mental apparatus he's dealing with what he thinks is effective and what isn't. But I think as far as the downtown Seattle, there's obviously no close by place to dunk them. You know, Pacific highway south has got all this stuff within him, you know, within short driving distance I think it appears to me. My guess would be that they're dying shortly after he picks him up because he's not going far with him.

[Carolyn Osorio]

It's eerie how spot on Bundy is when he refers to the Riverman as a fish in water. He wouldn't attract the attention of anyone. He would be so average no one would notice him.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Coalfield, Chapman and Hines and Mills. July 15, August. Okay. And see often. Look at him. You can see he changes. He's obviously not going to use that Green river anymore. At least not for a while. And he's looking for something that's more effective, so he goes back to dry land.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Bundy was also correct as to why the GRK had left Opal Mills body on the riverbank. It was because of that river picker, Bobby Ainsworth, who had caught him off guard.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

One of the five victims that are around the Green river, which one was on the bank and which one was in the river? I'm not saying which. I'm just saying what would you say? If one was on the bank and the other two over in the river, somebody near surprised him. That's the only thing I can think of. If it was anything other than five, the way she was killed is more or less the same. In other words, if the body looks like it's linked to the other four, and one was found on the bank and the other five, the other four in the river, I say good chance this guy was surprised. Because this guy obviously thought that dumping bodies in the rivers was a good way to get rid of bodies. And sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Anybody who looked at searching for people who fall in the river on the map in actions knows that oftentimes bodies just disappear under the right condition. I think he found out the hard way that they didn't. A body on the riverbank would say to me, he could say you were surprised by someone. They could also say he wanted to come back and see that victim again. Bizarre, I know, but they could do that.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Another tip. Bundy is adamant about that the only way they were going to catch the killer is if they were to find a fresh body.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

But God forbid, someday he decides that he finds a secluded well somewhere that no one can stumble across and starts dumping them all down the well and. Or some other effective way of burying them in the basement. Like John William Gacy. Because quite frankly, I think there was a chance to catch him. At least he can start finding fresh bodies.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Bundy advises the investigators to stake out the crime scenes where the GRK has left bodies, certain that the Riverman will return. They knew that he was hinting at his own predilection for necrophilia. Time would tell he wasn't wrong. And Bundy was adamant the Riverman wouldn't have fangs or horns. He would absolutely appear normal. And the way the GRK operated convinced Bundy that he was highly sane and very in control.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

He's well composed, this guy. Went over a year and a half. He's keeping it all inside.

[Carolyn Osorio]

He's keeping.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

He can't Use angels. These guns are under control, a certain amount of control. How long can he keep that up? Until he can. You think that he's, he's able, he's going to be able to control himself indefinitely. He's never going to lose control and make, make a mistake somewhere. He has made mistakes severe enough to get caught probably just you know, as you know what law enforcement is oftentimes luck sometimes, right? And your eyewitnesses, there's no question in my mind, but you got eyewitnesses all over here. People who saw this guy in the world and just don't know what they see. I mean this place is covered with eyewitnesses. People who saw him, saw them, saw him walk up to them and it went right in through their eyes and right out the back of their head. I mean he is not a phantom. He is good, he's well composed. He knows how to approach these people. He knows how to limit the risks. But there's no way to eliminate the risk and he's able to do it. The reason he's, the main reason he's been so successful, apart from his own canniness and wariness is the fact that the kind of victim he's doing once if he were snatching high school girls, he would not have gotten as far as he's gotten because of the nature of the victim. His main success would have the kind of victim decided to change. The victim class is going to have a lot more trouble. And the reason you don't have a lot of eyewitnesses, I assume you may have something along those lines. But the reason you don't have anything really reliable as you know, is because anytime you have a space of days or weeks before the victim is reported missing and there's been no publicity, even then you don't have anybody coming to court.

[Carolyn Osorio]

And Bundy confirmed the investigators suspicions that the so called cluster sites were of high significance to the killer.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

You think they're accidental? Fine. Oh no, no, no, no. This guy may not select his dumb science with a precision of a geographer or surveyor, but it's clearly something. Places he's searched down and looked over daytime and nighttime. Places he's been back to many times after, obviously places been back to many times.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Investigators believe that a critical psychological component of the case was that they wanted to dive into with Bundy. Was the burial of Mary Meehan. Was it proof of guilt that the killer felt remorseful for murdering a woman who was eight months pregnant? In that cold room in the penitentiary, investigators waited with bated breath for Bundy's response, because his answer wasn't just about the GRK's psychology but his own. Did he feel remorse? They wanted to know, with the GRK who was still out there, if he had a guilty conscience. Perhaps that was the psychological thread they could exploit to somehow coax this killer out of the shadows. No, bundy said emphatically with a hearty laugh. The only difference between Mary's grave and the others was that he probably had a shovel in the truck. That the killer would have no remorse for his victims. Time would tell Bundy was right. By 1985, the Green River Task Force continued to chip away at the unglamorous but critical work of data entry into the computer. Investigators had not wavered on their belief that within all that data they would finally find a connection that would lead them to the grk. A few interesting tips rolled in around this time. An animal trapper whose trapping lines placed him at many of the sites where victims of the GRK had been discovered. He was also described as creepy, as if something was off. An investigation into the trapper, Bill McLean, led to a highly publicized search warrant and interrogation. Here's an entry from Detective Reichert's log.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

That day we also discussed our approach to Mr. McLean in the event that he arrived at the search site while the search was in progress. I was directed to contact Mr. McLean in that event and begin an interview process with him. Depending on his attitude and demeanor, the interview could take place at the search site or if, in my judgment, the interview could be continued at the precinct or at another location that would be is now under 24 hour surveillance by King County Task Force officers and FBI agents. Interview techniques and approach to Mr. McLean were also discussed during this the task.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Force questioned McLean for the next four hours as reporters and TV crews set up shop vying for real estate outside the police station. At the same time, McLean's modest house in South Seattle was overrun with reporters chomping at the bit to speak with neighbors. Any local willing to offer up a sound bite for the entranced viewers at home, the trapper's neighborhood drew such a crowd that vendors saw an opportunity and began selling snacks while that four hour interrogation was underway at the station. For those who weren't part of the community back then, then it's hard to fully capture the feeling. Yes, it was morbid and creepy that people were at the edge of their seats. They were hoping that this was the grk. After over three years, the feeling was palpable. There was excitement in the air was the nightmare finally going to be over? But in the end, this would be just another letdown. Bill McLean wasn't their man. He was completely innocent. After an exhaustive interrogation, which included the offer of psychiatric treatment if he would confess, he took four polygraph tests which he passed. McLean was finally released and no charges were ever filed. No arrest was ever made. And none of the evidence that they had collected from his home tied him to the case. Case ever. Retired Sergeant Steve Davis Task force felt.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

It especially because they were getting killed every time they turn around. And then when they try and make an arrest or try and make a contact like the press, you know, when they, when he, when they wanted to talk to that one trapper or whatever he was, you know, the press went berserk because I was. Happened to be the precinct sergeant that night. You know, there must have been 80 cameras, you know, outside the precinct when they're trying to do their interviews and things like that. And then they were able to determine pretty quick, quick, that wasn't him. But now you've got him in the precinct with, quote, unquote, a possible Green river suspect. And I mean, I remember going out the back door of the precinct looking, saying, oh, look at all those little red lights, because there's all the cameras around the walls of the precinct, you know, trying, trying to get the shot, you know, and they live with that pressure constantly. I mean, I know that the, the news services put stringers on to follow Rikert, Faye Brooks, and a lot of them, I'm sure they did, you know, just see what they were doing, see where they were going.

[Carolyn Osorio]

McLean would go on to win a settlement of $30,000 from three local media organizations who had published his name as a suspect following the search of his home in 1986. But the damage to his reputation had been done. He would become one of many who would always be negatively connected to the case, given the side eye at work by neighbors, another person's life ruined by the GRK. After the Bill McLean debacle, investigators felt they had egg on their face between the media spectacle and the public's disappointment. It was another low point.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

You know, that was part of our frustration. The media was helpful and I think in drawing attention to it, but they also hurt us in certain ways because they reported that we were not efficient, capable of doing a good job. And so what happened then is people said, well, if they're not, if they're incompetent, why should we call and report any possible information? So we had to Go out and actually do TV shows and public service announcements to convince people that we wanted their input, we wanted, we wanted their tips, we wanted their thoughts, we wanted their suspect vehicles and all that information. So. But as the 80s went, went on, you know, it got tough.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Those tips were still vital in the investigation because they still hoped that a witness would come forward with information that would lead them to the killer. And by 1986, they had an even better machine to help process those tips. The VAX computer.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

We did eventually, in 1986, get what they called a VAX computer, which took up the space of a classroom at an average school, an average school classroom that contained data. We could only put input data. It didn't make any comparisons or correlations between evidence, between information. We had to print the information out, lay the printouts on the floor and go through each printout with a highlighter to see if we had similar names, addresses, birth dates and license plate numbers on those sheets. For example, people arrested for patronizing a prostitute on one list, people who assaulted women on another list, and someone who was registered to a pickup truck in Washington state. And we went down those three lists. If we found a name on all three lists, that would be priority.

[Carolyn Osorio]

A. Detective Jensen says the task force also created a separate analysis unit to help them find connections.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

And the analysis unit was, consisted of about four people that just kind of analyzed information that came in as it was received, prioritized tips and things like that. And at the same time I was helping with the computer and getting the databases online, getting stuff into the computer, because by, by that time we were up to 36, 38, 40 victims. I couldn't even tell you what the numbers were, the vast amount of information that was contained in these three ring binders. And each victim would probably have a three ring binder, four or five of them. So thousands and thousands of pages. When we bought the computer in 85, we contracted with a company to build a program for us that was supposed to be a smart program that could find documents and things. But they ended up scanning, I think half a million pages of documents into this program.

[Carolyn Osorio]

A sharp eyed detective, Matt Haney, began to see a pattern. Thanks to the new computer and all that data entry, police reports from separate jurisdictions finally helped them to find what was looking more and more like the needle in all that hay. A new viable suspect, who they would refer to as the truck painter. We'll be right back with the shadow girls after a word from our sponsors. In the 1980s, fear gripped the Connecticut river valley as A serial killer stalked.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

And murdered women in New Hampshire and Vermont.

[Carolyn Osorio]

But this isn't a story about him. It's about the eight women whose lives were cut too short and one woman who survived to tell us the tale. I'm Jennifer Amell, and this is Dark Valley, an audio docuseries of my personal.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Investigation into a series of unsolved murders that have haunted this region for decades. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Carolyn Osorio]

And now we continue with the Shadow Girls. The truck painter grew up in south King County. He had graduated from high school at the age of 20, enlisted in the Navy and served in Vietnam, and was honorably discharged. When he returned home, he was hired as a painter at a truck manufacturing plant on the graveyard shift, where he still worked in 1986. On the surface, that was the truck painter's story. But with the help of the vax, computer puzzle pieces revealed a very different story. A mugshot of the truck painter after he was arrested for soliciting a police decoy on the Strip in April of 1982. There was a report from May of 1984, after the truck painter had called the task force saying he had information about a Green river victim he'd seen at the 7:11 on the strip where she'd been standing with a friend. He said he didn't remember the names of either woman, but the truck painter said he'd come down to the police station and he was shown photos of the missing girls, and he pointed out Kim Nelson. It was then that he would openly admit to detectives that he was addicted to prostituted women, which was what led him to be cruising the Strip the next day, where he recognized the woman who had been standing next to Kim Nelson that day. Detectives didn't do anything about that information at the time, but later they would track down Kim's friend, and her name was Paige Miley. They did this in 1987. Detective Tom Jensen describes that encounter from Paige's perspective.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Paige Miley is interviewed about the circumstances of Kim Nelson's disappearance, and she talks about how she and Kim had just come to town. They'd come back from somewhere. They were standing on Pacific Highway South. They'd been there about 15 minutes, and Paige got a trick and left with a guy in the car. When she came back, Kim Nelson was gone and never came back. So the next day, she's out in about the same place, and this guy in the green pickup truck drives up and says, what happened to your tall friend? And that kind of freaked her out. Of course, Kim Nelson never came back and because they'd only been out there together for 10 or 15 minutes. Pretty obvious that the guy in the pickup truck had been watching and probably waiting for one of them to go so he could take the other one without a witness. The logic here is that they were only out there for a few minutes. Just a highly suspicious contact. He was obviously watching them.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Back in 1984, when the truck painter had presented himself as a witness with information to help the task force, he didn't ask to have an attorney present. He agreed to take a polygraph where he denied any involvement with the Green river killings. And he passed that lie detector test. So he was free to go. In a sea of thousands of suspects, the truck painter didn't stand out to the task force. In 1984. He had a stable job, and on paper, he didn't have a history of violence. He'd been divorced twice, had steady girlfriends and a sick son, and didn't present as a loner. Technically, he had inserted himself into the investigation as the FBI profile predicted. But he had passed that polygraph. Back then, they didn't see anything linking him to the case. But now detectives could see that the VAX computer was telling a different story. The task force had access to that police report filed in April of 1990, 1983, from the city of Des Moines, when a police officer from that agency had been called to the truck painter's home, Bipac highway, to investigate the disappearance of Marie Malvar. Remember, Marie's boyfriend and her father had tracked down that truck that had picked up Marie from the SeaTac Strip just before she vanished. But nothing had come of their call to police because the truck painter claimed he had no knowledge of a missing girl. The coup de grace was finding the tip from Rebecca Garde Guay, who had called into the task Force in 1984, two years after she had survived almost being strangled to death by a man in a hidden green space by the airport in November of 1982. In the truck painter's file, there was that taped interview from 1985 where he admitted to detectives that he choked a woman after he called. Claimed she bit his penis. He said it was self defense and that he'd let her go. They also had access to a report from the Port of Seattle police that tied the truck painter to that little League field where victims of the GRK had been found. The report stated that an officer had pulled up to the truck painter's parked vehicle. A woman sat beside him, and they both told the officer that they were just hanging out. That Woman would later be identified as Kelly McGinnis, who disappeared that night, June 28, 1983. This load of circumstantial evidence prompted the task force to consult with the FBI. They wanted to know about that polygraph test that the truck painter had passed in 1984. And after careful review, the FBI found that the test was flawed. The operator hadn't asked him if he had murdered specific victims. Armed with this new information, the task force set about interviewing the truck painter's family, beginning with his ex wife, Marsha, who would prove extremely helpful to the investigation. In South King county. If you had your driver's license in a car or had a friend who did, the place to be was cruising the Loop in downtown Renton on Friday and Saturday night. The Renton Loop was a rite of passage for teens that had begun back in the 1950s. It was an invisible circuit that started on Second street past the high school and meandered through town. And at the end, you'd start again. Marsha was out cruising with a friend in the summer of 1971. And for many like Marsha, the Loop involved an alcoholic beverage and flirting with a driver nearby.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Friend and I were running the Loop in Renton, and he was driving by and he said, pull over. And I thought it was a cop. And we pulled over and I said, show me your identification. And he said, you thought it was a cop? Yeah, we thought it was a cop.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Why did you think that?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Rolled down his window and he said, pull over now. And an authoritative voice. I was 18, 19, 16, something like that. And the girlfriend and I, we were drinking and we pulled over and thought, oh, boy, you know, we're really into it now.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Was he in a car that looked like a police car?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

He was in a red Datsun pickup. He told us to get out of the car. He stayed in his. And I said, well, if you're a policeman, show us some identification. And that's when he started laughing and he said. And joking. And he said, well, he said, I don't have to show you my identification if I'm a policeman, you know.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

He said that if I'm a policeman.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Yeah, he said, I don't have to show identification if I'm a policeman, and if I was, you girls would be in a lot of trouble or something like that. He just said, pull over and stop. And we pull over and stop because, well, he had short hair. And at that time, everybody was. All the guys were wearing long hair and shaggy, you know, and he was clean cut. We thought it was A policeman in an unmarked vehicle. We just started talking. My girlfriend had a boyfriend and he started talking to me. I saw that he had been to the grocery store and we started talking about cooking and I offered to cook him a meal and he said, my place is yours. And I said, well, I'd rather go to my place. I felt safer. I cooked his dinner and he left after a few hours and watch some tv. And he left.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Marcia confided to detectives that the truck painter shared with her early in their relationship that he had aspired to be a police officer before we were married.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

When we first started living together, it was one of the rare times we talked. I asked him what he had done in the Navy. He said, well, he had gone in with the desire of becoming an MP so that he could become a policeman when he got out. But he never pursued it. He went back to painting at Kenworth.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Marcia married the truck painter in December of 1973. But this wasn't his first marriage.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Are you aware of his situation with his first wife, that's Claudia?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

No.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Did he ever talk about Claudia much to you?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

No. I know that when we first lived together, I know that he would call me Claudia when we were making love once in a while and it bothered me and I questioned him about it. He said again, what you don't know won't hurt you. And there's nothing about her that you need to know. The only thing that he did tell me was that when he was in the service, they were living in California and he was out on the ship and when he came back, she had left with some black guys. There was, he said there were several of them and that's all that I ever known about her.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Did he ever tell you that he thought she might have been a prostitute? No, he never mentioned that.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Okay.

[Carolyn Osorio]

The truck painter graduated from Tyee high school in 1969 and he married his 19 year old high school girlfriend Claudia. He then joined the Navy and then the new couple moved to San Diego before he was shipped out to Vietnam where he worked as a clerk on board of a supply ship. While the truck painter was in Vietnam, Claudia had an affair. And he would blame that as the reason their marriage ended within a year. Now, I've heard on multiple occasions that there was this theory that the truck painter's first wife Claudia was a prostituted person. But from this interview with police in 1986, it sounds like she survived a horrific sexual assault.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Went to see somebody I knew in jail and this guy told me that he had an uncle that took collateral for bail. And so I went with him on the assumption that he was trying to help me out. And it did not work that way. He took me to a motel, said that was where his uncle was. I could not get away from him, where he slapped me and forced me into sex. And I got out through the window and got helped by a friend of.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Was this the rape?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

I would say somewhere in his 20s.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

He was a black man.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

He was a black man.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

And the rape occurred somewhere in the hotel in Seattle?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Yes.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Did you report this rape to the police?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

No.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Do you think that you ever told Gary about this incident?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

I don't think so.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

It can't be positive.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

I cannot be positive.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

But it's not an incident that people know about. His own thing.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

That's correct.

[Carolyn Osorio]

The truth was the truck painter would make up lies about Claudia to get back at her, spreading the rumor that she was a prostituted person. And this would become family lore. He would tell his mother, Mary, that Claudia had cheated on him with multiple men when he was in the service. But he never mentioned to his mother the fact that he frequented prostituted women during his time in the Navy and that he contracted gonorrhea after a while.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

When he was shipped overseas, they got divorced.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

And do you know the reason why they got her divorce?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

She was chasing around. Is that what told you, or is that what she told you? Yeah, that's probably. No, I never talked to her after that. But, I mean, that's what he said. It was. It was the fellows in the service.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

There were telling them about it, you know. I mean, you know.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Mary would also come to blame Marcia, his second wife, for their divorce, that she liked to.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Party, and he worked and came home, you know, and he didn't have these interests like she did. She always had something to do, someplace to go. And she was in Fiddler's. She was a fiddler. She played her guitar and stuff, and we worked every night. And so that's. That was. That was their whole foundation for their divorce. She came to me before they broke up, and she. You know, that was the last time I ever talked to her. She came to me and she says. He says, you know, she said, I'm gonna, I think, get a divorce. And I said, well, how come? And she says, he's just too good for me. He's just too good. I don't deserve him, and we're just not getting along, and I want to do things that he doesn't want to do. She liked to not play around with other Fellows, but party and we work, you know, most of the night. And she wanted to go party.

[Carolyn Osorio]

In 1987. Marcia's description to the police as to why she divorced the truck painter in May of 1981 after seven years, was a completely different story.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

It was more or less. I was his housekeeper, secretary. I did everything for him. His laundry. He would go to work, he would come home. And during the latter part of the years we were together, he was later and later coming home. Most times on weekends we spend at his parents or with his family. He never wanted to have any friends, us have friends together. All the friends that I ever had, he didn't like. And so therefore I couldn't associate with him. I tried to make friends with some of his friends, and he didn't like that. He never allowed me to go over there. I was very naive, and we got along okay. It's just that to me, it just didn't seem like it was a real relationship. I was just there to do whatever he wanted done.

[Carolyn Osorio]

As the interview progressed, there was some real revelations, and one might be tempted to connect the dots that the truck painter was teaching himself how to effectively strangle a woman.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

By my hands and feet and pleasing soul.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Were most of your encounters in the home or were sometimes out in a field or the car, that type of thing.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

He liked it anywhere he could get it. If we're going down the road and he wanted it, he'd pull over and say, let's go out here in the woods, you know, he liked to go out in the woods. He liked to do it out in the open.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Did he ever try to choke you?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Yes.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Would you explain the circumstances of that? If you feel comfortable.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

We had gone out with some friends and had some beer and we had come back and I had had. I was not a drinker, and we had come back and it was real late, and I was a little drunk, and I got out of the van and I stumbled and I got up and I went to the door and I started to reach for the door. The next thing I knew, he had his hands around my neck and he was choking me from behind. From behind. It was getting tighter and tighter, and I thought it was somebody else, that there was somebody else there. And I started screaming. And then I realized that it was him, and I started fighting him. He finally let go and he kind of pushed me. And by the time I got my balance back, he had walked around the other side of the van, tried to convince me that there was somebody else there and that they had Run off. So I tried to get him to call the police and he wouldn't do it. I thought, well, maybe it's just because. Because we've had too much to drink, you know, maybe he was just playing around, you know.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Now, was it with his hands from behind, like I'm demonstrating now, or was it in a police type chokehold?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

It was a police type hold with.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Your neck between his forearm.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

And then he got his hands around my neck and he was. He was always. He always liked to sneak up on me and scare me. And if he. Like if he would hear me come home from the store or something, he would hide around the corner or something and scare me when I would come around or. And he was always coming up behind me and taking me in this arm type of hold. Not to turn but just to grab you. Just to grab me like that. Yeah, he was always doing that. He liked to see how softly he could walk so that he'd be just totally noiseless. And he could do it too.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

These are frequent occasions.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

He was always doing that.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Yeah, always doing that.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Always doing that.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Her husband expected sex whenever and wherever he wanted it, which was always in the woods. These wooded green spaces where he took Marsha were places locals would later find the bodies and skeletal remains of the Green river killer, including the Green River.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

To ride bikes down along the Green river, we used to park there, Take the bucks. The bikes down in the truck and park there at. There by Kent Fraser road. And we used to park there and we used to ride the bikes up and down the road.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

At the Fragor Road, you mean?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Yeah, he liked going down there. He liked going anywhere as long as there wasn't a lot of other people around. He didn't like. It seemed to me that he didn't like being around lots of other people. They made him uncomfortable.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Now where about on the Fragra road? Is it near. Are you from. Are you very familiar with the Fragra Road yourself?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Well, yeah, kind of.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

You know where the meatpacking plant is? The.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Down in that area. We used to ride our bikes by there.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

PD And J. Meats.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Yeah. I don't know. The crossroad there.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

No.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Meeker street, that's the bridge.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Meeker Street. Bridge.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Bridge is there. And isn't that frego. Yeah, right in there is where we used to park the bikes. I mean the cars and then ride the bikes.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Where would you start and where would you end?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

It seems to me we always park there. Meeker and Fraser Road seemed to me we always park in there and we Would either go run the north and south runs.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

North and south.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Okay. We would either go south as far as we could, or we would go north as far as we could and back.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Okay. Yeah. You ever mention anything about the river or that area? Is it just. Did you just go there because it's a nice bike path or some other reason?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Why did we start going there? Seems to me he just one day decided we'd just go down there and go bicycle ride.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Did you ever have. Did you ever stop and have sex along the Green River?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Yes.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Okay.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Geez.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Whereabouts?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Lots of places.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

In the what? On the banks, in the tall grass there.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

In the banks in the tall grass.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

During the nighttime or during daytime?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Nighttime and daytime both.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

But occasionally on night rides and even day rides, you stop and you'd engage in sex. Nothing wrong with him. I wish I could say that.

[Carolyn Osorio]

It's pretty dark down there at night.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Though, isn't it, to be riding along on that road? Yes, it is kind of scary. Did you guys ever go down there and park and make out down there, too? Yeah.

[Carolyn Osorio]

In a future interview, when little Matthew was all grown up, he too would tell detectives his recollections of his father taking him for bike rides along the Green River.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Talked about riding bikes fairly often on the trail at the Green River. Is that right? And how old were you at that time? I don't have an age, but I was. I was not old enough to have a bike. I was in a child seat. So he would actually ride you? Yes. You'd be on the back? Yes. And that was after the divorce, so I do have to say maybe three or four when the divorce was going on and you were right. He would ride you on the trail next to Green River? Yes. And do you know specifically where you were when you were taking those rides? Yeah, we would always start at the park that was at the end of the trail. I believe it was the end of the trail, and I'd play at the park, and then either we'd go and then I. We'd come around and come back and you. And. Okay. And would you ever stop along the trail at all? There's a spot where. There was a. Where we had lost a cat was our spot that we stopped at. And could you find that spot again? Might be able to find that spot again. And when you say you would stop there, what would you do when you stopped there? We had something to drink or something to snack on, you know, a little Wendell, those little cakes, you know, the pies, little hostess stuff that he shopped at the bakery that was by the house. When you would get off your bike to have your little picnic or snack, where would you guys go? Oh, we'd stop right by the road or right by the little trail. We'd either stay there or we'd go over to the edge of the trail that would lead down to the water. Would you actually sit in the grass? Not really in the grass, but on the bank. And you'd see that we'd watch the cars drive by.

[Carolyn Osorio]

One thing investigators keyed into was that both Claudia and Marsha, his ex wives, would agree that the truck painter's mother was very controlling.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

The father was a bus driver. The mother worked at Pennies. She was, you know, kind of more of the domino.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Tell me why he's like that.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

She was just strong, you know, just. It was, you know. Although she never really did it, she always did it in a real nice way. You kind of knew that if she told you something or she wanted something done that you should do it.

[Carolyn Osorio]

And his second wife, Marcia, felt the same.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

I know that his mother wears pants.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Oh, his mother wore the pants.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Yeah. Okay.

[Carolyn Osorio]

Speaking of the truck painter's mother, here she is on April 7, 1987, no doubt trying to recover emotionally from a knock at the door. It was the Green River Task Force and they were there to ask questions about her son.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

And your first name?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Mary. Mary. And Mary, what's Your birth date? January 22, 1928.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

And you are aware that I'm taping this statement or this conversation?

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

Do you have any objections to that?

[Carolyn Osorio]

The question posed to Mary as to whether her son had ever been arrested seems to blow her away.

[Marsha (ex-wife of the truck painter)]

All I know is that he's above reproach in my eyes. I have. I have never seen him do anything illegal or heard of him doing anything illegal. He's not a drinker, he doesn't smoke, and he's just involved in his own little world of cars and meats.

[Detective Dave Reichert]

You might ask this, too. I'm sorry, has he told you that he's been talked to before?

[Carolyn Osorio]

No. Next time on the Shadow Girls, an interview with the truck painter's mother. Did she know any of her boy's deep, dark secrets? How he killed a stray cat for pleasure? And his first human victim, the little boy who would barely survive that encounter?

[Detective Dave Reichert]

Well, I said something like, why did you kill me? You know, I saw the blood pumping out of me. Now, could he see the blood as well? Oh, yeah, it was profusely. I mean, it was already running down my leg, into my boots. And with every heartbeat, it was just pumping out. The whole front of my shirt was soaked. And he started laughing. He had a smile on his face. And he stood there for a minute. He had his knife in his hand, and I didn't want him to stab me again, but he reached towards me and he just wiped the knife off both sides of the blade. So he wiped it once across my shoulder and twice across my shoulder on the other side of the blade, folded it back up. He said, I always wanted to know what it felt like to kill somebody. And he started laughing again.

[Carolyn Osorio]

The Shadow Girls is a Pie in the sky production in association with KSL Podcasts and Lemonada Media. Our executive producer is Brandon Morgan. Post production supervisor is Casey Weyland. Supervising sound editor is Victoria Chang. And edited by Joey Jordan. For Pie in the Sky Media, I'm Carolyn Osorio.