Storytime for Grownups: Summer Session - The Woman in White with Andrew Clavin

Release Date: July 7, 2025

Introduction to Summer Session

In this special pre-recorded episode of Storytime for Grownups, host Faith Moore transitions into the Summer Session format, likening it to a fun college class. During the summer months, the podcast explores fairy tales and their connections to classic literature, offering listeners a blend of storytelling and insightful discussions.

Faith Moore [00:00]: "Storytime for Grown Ups is a podcast that will help you learn to love classic literature. It's like an audio book with built-in notes."

Introducing the Guest: Andrew Clavin

Faith Moore welcomes her guest, Andrew Clavin—who is also her father—to delve into Wilkie Collins' masterpiece, The Woman in White. Andrew Clavin is a seasoned novelist known for his thrillers and suspense stories, making him an ideal guest to discuss the intricate storytelling techniques employed in Collins' work.

Faith Moore [08:02]: "Today's guest is Andrew Clavin... He's a novelist and the perfect person to talk about how The Woman in White does what it does."

Andrew Clavin's Discovery and Influence of The Woman in White

Andrew shares a poignant personal story about how The Woman in White transformed his life during a period of deep personal struggle.

Andrew Clavin [08:04]: "It's one of a handful of books that changed my life and set it on a different path... I started to read the Woman in White and I thought, oh, that's how you do it."

Facing challenges in his writing career and personal life, Andrew found inspiration in Collins' ability to blend suspense with deep character development, prompting him to craft his own intelligent thriller, The Scarred Man.

Andrew Clavin [14:21]: "I read it and I immediately thought, oh, that's why it's so brilliant. It's such a brilliant book."

Deep Dive into The Woman in White

The Woman in White serves as a central topic, with Andrew analyzing its narrative structure, character development, and thematic depth.

1. Character Analysis: Walter Hartright, Laura, and Marian

   • Walter Hartright is portrayed as the quintessential hero with a balance of strength and vulnerability. His evolution from a gentle artist to a decisive avenger adds layers to his character.

     Andrew Clavin [21:00]: "He has his heart... he is just a guy who draws pictures. And so he's kind of like... you know, he's just one of those nice, lovely artistic fellows who really is not."

   • Laura Fairlie embodies the classic Victorian heroine—gentle, sweet, and seemingly passive. However, this portrayal has received mixed reactions from modern readers who find her lacking in agency.

     Faith Moore [18:21]: "Laura is kind of disappointing. She seems sort of like a drip... the relationship between Walter and Marian feels... like a modern romantic relationship."

   • Marian Halcombe, in contrast, is an empowered, intelligent, and proactive character. Her role challenges the traditional Victorian portrayal of women, aligning more with modern sensibilities.

     Andrew Clavin [32:49]: "Marian is very likable and incredibly heroic... she embodies what he saw and what the society of the day saw as a more masculine version of femininity."

2. Themes: Victorian Views on Women and Characterization

   The podcast explores how Collins reflects and critiques Victorian societal norms, especially concerning the roles and perceptions of women.

   Andrew Clavin [27:48]: "The Industrial Revolution... has stripped women of their societal roles, leaving them with unrealistic ideals of femininity."

3. Villains: Bosco and Fosco

   The duality of villains in the novel adds complexity to the narrative. Bosco represents the overt antagonist, whereas Fosco embodies the insidious, manipulative evil.

   Andrew Clavin [36:41]: "Fosco represents the big world breaking into the sweet little people’s lives... He is the force from outside."

4. Narrative Techniques: Foreshadowing and Multiple Narrators

   Collins masterfully employs foreshadowing and multiple narrators to build suspense and deepen the story.

   Andrew Clavin [44:03]: "Foreshadowing creates a looming dread that hangs over the story."

   Andrew Clavin [47:11]: "Multiple narrators maintain suspense by hiding information from both the characters and the readers."

Comparison to Modern Literature and Media

Faith and Andrew draw parallels between The Woman in White and modern narratives, highlighting similarities in suspense-building and character development.

Faith Moore [45:43]: "It's quite gothic as well... similar to Jane Eyre’s supernatural elements."

Andrew Clavin's Favorite Techniques in Collins' Writing

Andrew appreciates several of Collins' storytelling techniques, such as intricate plot setups and the seamless integration of suspense with character development.

Andrew Clavin [55:11]: "He gives us a villain that Walter can plausibly take on... the scene with Marian climbing the roof is pure character-revealing action."

Discussion on Andrew Clavin's Book: Kingdom of Finding God in the Literature of Darkness

Andrew introduces his book, Kingdom of Finding God in the Literature of Darkness, discussing the role of dark narratives in shaping cultural and moral understandings.

1. The Impact of Dark Stories

   Andrew argues that dark and gruesome stories, much like fairy tales, play a crucial role in teaching resilience and the triumph of good over evil.

   Andrew Clavin [59:17]: "Fairy tales teach children that dragons can be beaten."

2. Evil as a Fundamental Force

   He delves into the portrayal of evil in literature, emphasizing its necessity in understanding reality and moral law.

   Andrew Clavin [64:05]: "Evil is a force... to think that you have a relationship with God but have no concept of evil is to have no relationship with God."

3. Christian Art and the Western Canon

   The book explores how Christian themes have historically influenced Western literature and how their absence affects modern storytelling.

   Andrew Clavin [59:17]: "Christian art used to be the great art in the West... The Woman in White is a very Christian book."

Conclusion and Final Remarks

Faith Moore wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to engage with dark literature as a means to understand deeper truths about humanity and morality. She also plugs her upcoming season and invites listeners to share their thoughts and support the independent podcast.

Faith Moore [64:05]: "Kingdom of Finding God in the Literature of Darkness ties perfectly into why we should read stories that contain darkness."

Notable Quotes

• Faith Moore [00:00]: "Brew a pot of tea, find a cozy chair and settle in. Class is in session."
• Andrew Clavin [08:04]: "I started to read the Woman in White and I thought, oh, that's how you do it."
• Andrew Clavin [44:03]: "Foreshadowing creates a looming dread that hangs over the story."
• Andrew Clavin [55:11]: "The scene with Marian climbing the roof is pure character-revealing action."
• Andrew Clavin [64:05]: "Evil is a force... to think that you have a relationship with God but have no concept of evil is to have no relationship with God."

Final Thoughts

This episode of Storytime for Grownups offers a rich exploration of The Woman in White, intertwining classic literature analysis with personal narratives and contemporary reflections. Andrew Clavin's insights provide both aspiring writers and literature enthusiasts with a deeper understanding of narrative craft, character development, and the intrinsic role of darkness in storytelling.

Listeners are encouraged to revisit previous episodes for a complete experience of The Woman in White and to anticipate the return of Storytime for Grownups with a new book in September.

Resources and Further Reading

• Andrew Clavin's Works:
  • The Scarred Man
  • The Cameron Winter Mystery Series
  • Kingdom of Finding God in the Literature of Darkness
• Wilkie Collins' The Woman in White
• Faith Moore's Website: faithkmoore.com
• Andrew Clavin's Substack: The New Jerusalem