"Prolonged Divorce" w/ Torrey Peters

Summary

StraightioLab Podcast Summary: "Prolonged Divorce" Featuring Torrey Peters

Release Date: April 29, 2025
Hosts: George Civeris and Sam Taggart
Guest: Torrey Peters

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1. Episode Introduction

In the "Prolonged Divorce" episode of StraightioLab, hosts George Civeris and Sam Taggart delve into the intricate dynamics of marriage and divorce within straight and LGBTQ+ communities. Joining them is acclaimed author Torrey Peters, known for her novels Detransition, Baby and Stag Dance. The episode explores how the length and nature of divorces can reflect deeper cultural and societal norms.

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2. Introducing Torrey Peters

George and Sam begin by introducing Torrey Peters, emphasizing her prestige as a guest due to her influential works on gender and identity. Sam remarks, “[09:07] Host 2: Yeah. Oh, my God. Okay. Well, you know her from her debut smash hit novel, Detransition, Baby. You know her from her new book, Stag Dance...” highlighting her significant contributions to contemporary literature.

Notable Quote:
“[09:02] Host 1: And so while all are prestigious, some are more prestigious than others. And this is our most prestigious.” – George Civeris

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3. Self-Cancellation and Lesbian Culture

The conversation shifts to previous episodes where George and Sam explored lesbian-specific topics, such as self-cancellation—a concept where lesbian entrepreneurs intentionally provoke controversy to spark societal conversations. Sam explains, “[03:08] Host 2: So you want like a Reddit thread. You want people saying, like thread the truth about, you know, black cat coffee.”

Notable Quote:
“[03:52] Host 1: It was porn. This was Natalie Rotter Lightman, and it was porn as a lesbian export, as pizza is to Italians.” – George Civeris

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4. Porn as a Lesbian Cultural Export

Torrey Peters discusses the portrayal of lesbianism in media, specifically how lesbian porn serves as a cultural export similar to how pizza represents Italian culture. She notes, “[04:02] Host 1: And so, you know, it's not necessarily always made by Italians, just like lesbian porn isn't always made by lesbians.”

Notable Quote:
“[05:36] Host 1: It was in the pizza metaphor. You were forgetting sort of about Domino's.” – George Civeris

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5. Prolonged Divorce: Theory and Implications

The core discussion revolves around the concept of "prolonged divorce" and how its duration can indicate whether a marriage was straight or gay. Torrey posits, “[35:15] PayPal Advertiser: I think if we're gonna do an arbitrary thing, I think from proposing your divorce to filing it, four months is reasonable.”

Key Insights:

• Straight Marriages: Tend to have prolonged divorces, symbolizing a rigid adherence to traditional norms.
• Gay Marriages: Divorces are typically shorter, reflecting a more flexible approach to dissolution.

Notable Quote:
“[37:36] Host 2: Don't you think it has to do with, like, the more you buy into the institution, for lack of a better word, the more violent it is to break it apart?” – Sam Taggart

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6. Comparison Between Gay and Straight Marriages

Torrey elaborates on how straight marriages often become entangled with everyday logistics, making separation cumbersome. She shares personal experiences, “[36:24] Host 1: Because the queer thing is being like, I don't take my possessions. I don't care.”

Notable Quote:
“[40:28] Host 2: Yes.” – Sam Taggart

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7. Divorce Literature and Its Critique

The discussion evolves into the current landscape of divorce literature, which Torrey critiques for being overly optimistic. She expresses skepticism, “[45:41] Host 2: Yeah, that is it doesn't work anymore now. And so like, because I too am always like, what. What is a great magazine assignment that I could like pitch for myself...”

Notable Quote:
“[46:19] Host 2: Listen, we can't get it.” – Sam Taggart

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8. Cultural Commentary: Emilia Perez and Backlash

Torrey brings up Emilia Perez, a controversial film, and the mixed reactions it has received within the trans community. She observes, “[47:53] Host 1: Yeah, I think there's something to that. The backlash is like. I'm like, okay, it does feel like, what are we doing here?”

Notable Quote:
“[49:01] Host 2: They should have explored to recreating Amelia Perez, then they would have exploded.” – Sam Taggart

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9. Online Subcultures: Discord Gooning

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the phenomenon of "discord gooning"—intense online sexual interactions that lead to sensory overload. Torrey describes it as, “[62:38] PayPal Advertiser: So like, you have discords where your thing is. You sign on to a discord and there's like, thousands of other people on these discords and you're like spending all day gooning.”

Notable Quote:
“[63:06] PayPal Advertiser: So like, you have like whatever your fetish is, right?” – Torrey Peters

---

10. Segments: Straight Shooters and Shout Outs

The episode includes engaging segments where rapid-fire questions assess familiarity with straight culture and shout-outs to various cultural elements. These segments add a dynamic and interactive layer to the discussion.

Notable Quote from Shout Outs:
“[71:33] Host 1: What's up freaks, losers and perverts around the globe... I felt like, damn, the subway's like I'm underwater... I felt like, you know, this used to be my life...” – Sam Taggart

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11. Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, George and Sam emphasize the importance of addressing prolonged divorce to understand broader cultural narratives. Torrey advocates for a more straightforward approach to divorce, suggesting a standard timeframe to prevent prolonged suffering.

Final Notable Quote:
“[67:31] Host 2: So, ripping the band-aid off and making divorce a four-month process could difference between straight and gay marriages.” – Torrey Peters

---

Key Takeaways

• Prolonged Divorce as Cultural Indicator: The length of divorce proceedings can reflect the underlying cultural rigidity or flexibility within marriages.

• Intersection of Marriage and Identity: Understanding how identity (straight vs. gay) influences marital dynamics and dissolution processes is crucial for broader societal insights.

• Critique of Divorce Literature: Current divorce literature may lack depth and realism, often presenting an overly optimistic view of the dissolution process.

• Impact of Online Subcultures: Phenomena like discord gooning illustrate the complex ways in which modern technology intersects with personal and sexual identities.

• Cultural Backlash and Representation: Works like Emilia Perez highlight the ongoing tensions and challenges in accurately representing and addressing trans issues in media.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• George Civeris at [09:02]: “And so while all are prestigious, some are more prestigious than others. And this is our most prestigious.”

• Sam Taggart at [37:36]: “Don't you think it has to do with, like, the more you buy into the institution, for lack of a better word, the more violent it is to break it apart?”

• Torrey Peters at [35:15]: “I think if we're gonna do an arbitrary thing, I think from proposing your divorce to filing it, four months is reasonable.”

• Torrey Peters at [62:38]: “So like, you have like whatever your fetish is, right? It's like there's discords.”

• Sam Taggart at [49:01]: “They should have explored to recreating Amelia Perez, then they would have exploded.”

• Torrey Peters at [67:31]: “I think if we're gonna do an arbitrary thing, I think from proposing your divorce to filing it, four months is reasonable.”

---

This episode offers a profound exploration of how marital dissolution varies across cultural spectra, particularly contrasting straight and LGBTQ+ relationships. Torrey Peters provides invaluable insights, challenging prevailing norms and encouraging listeners to rethink the societal constructs surrounding marriage and divorce.

Transcript

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[Host 1]

Podcast starts now. What's up everyone around the globe? You're listening to Stradiolab from a windowless room in Times Square.

[Host 2]

That's right. Welcome to trl.

[Host 1]

Welcome to trl. I can hear NSYNC bumping their new hit downstairs.

[Host 2]

So this is our final day of a full week of Stradiolab content.

[Host 1]

Yeah, we've been recording non stop.

[Host 2]

I feel wistful.

[Host 1]

I know.

[Host 2]

We've recorded four episodes. We've done a live show. It was our first ever lesbiolab live show. All queer woman lineup. And instead of straight topics, they brought lesbian topics. Yes, and we learned about. I think we can say what the three topics were.

[Host 1]

Say them.

[Host 2]

Okay. Self cancellation. So this is when you are a lesbian and you start a small business, sort of with the intention of being canceled for having bad labor practices.

[Host 1]

You get like one complaint and then decide to go on a. I'm sorry.

[Host 2]

That's right. And it's also like starting a business is actually more of a means to an end. The end being getting a conversation going.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So you want like a Reddit thread. You want people saying, like thread the truth about, you know, black cat coffee. So that was one. Hats was the second topic. So we learned about flat rim hats and about, hey, mama, lesbians and about how different hats, the further back in your head a beanie goes, the less queer you are. That is something that was, I think, posited.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that was posited.

[Host 2]

And proven and proven. And then the final topic, now this was the most interesting to me.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Do you want to say what it was?

[Host 1]

It was porn. This was Natalie Rotter Lightman, and it was porn as a lesbian export, as pizza is to Italians.

[Host 2]

So she was. Yes, go ahead.

[Host 1]

And so, you know, it's not necessarily always made by Italians, just like lesbian porn isn't always made by lesbians. And yet it's how most people interact with lesbian culture.

[Host 2]

This was fascinating to me because I am so, you know, liberal arts pilled that I thought the topic was like feminist.

[Host 1]

I have to say your Ivy League education was showing pejorative.

[Host 2]

I was.

[Host 1]

It was very. I have to say, it was like rich. It was sort of. It was Kamala coated.

[Host 2]

Okay, thank you for the class analysis. First of all, I really appreciate it. I appreciate it. And I'm self canceling in a lesbian way for my privilege because when I.

[Host 1]

Heard porn as our greatest sex for, I said, I know exactly what you're talking about.

[Host 2]

No, and in retrospect, I completely understand what she was saying. She was saying the sort of male gay is lesbian, poor. And literally the poster of two women kissing that guys have in their dorms. Yeah, that is like.

[Host 1]

I mean, that's like an artful version.

[Host 2]

A cultural export of lesbianism.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 2]

That people from all communities can understand. What I heard was like, you know, sort of queer, non binary porn where then all the performers also give a talk at Oberlin. And then the talk is like. And then there's like people asking questions at the talk and they're like holding space.

[Host 1]

It was really funny. You were like, oh, porn stars. You know, people that do talks at colleges and Universities. And I was like, I really don't think that's what it is.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

But I love that it's a beautiful. It's a beautiful perspective that you bring.

[Designer Shoe Warehouse Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And you know what? That also is a lesbian cultural export. It's just as like a less successful one because it hasn't really reached the heights of the sort of more male, gazy lesbian porn.

[Host 1]

It was in the pizza metaphor. You were forgetting sort of about Domino's.

[Host 2]

I was thinking more like Roberta's kind of a hot honey and sage pizza. Whereas Natalie was saying, like pepperoni.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I want to say.

[Host 2]

And I do want to actually shout out. So our friend Andrea Long Chu was supposed to do the show, ended up not being able to make it. But. But her topic was going to be hands as a lesbian topic, which I think is so rich.

[Host 1]

Well, it's very rich. And I would love to know where she was coming from. But you, like, get that they have hands?

[Host 2]

No, but it's like, you know, hands are much more of an important part of lesbian sex, I think is where it's coming from.

[Host 1]

Marge, we're in Times Square.

[Host 2]

And like, as a. It's like hands. I think this is what she was going for. Hands as a sex organ.

[Host 1]

Oh, well, we'll have to ask because I don't want to make assumptions because I don't know. Yeah, maybe that's not what she was going for.

[Host 2]

Okay. Maybe I'm once again thinking too academically.

[Host 1]

You know, maybe she was like, lesbians work with their hands.

[Host 2]

Oh, that's also probably true.

[Host 1]

You know, who knows? It could be anything.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1]

I'm not here to make assumptions. I'm here to listen.

[Host 2]

We were being so respectful and open minded last night, but we had one like, cheap joke that we did with a U haul, which, by the way.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I'm ready to be defensive.

[Host 2]

Oh, here she goes.

[Host 1]

I'm ready to be defensive. We put the U haul joke in the slideshow because we were like, it's time to talk about classic stereotypes. Classic stereotypes.

[Host 2]

But then all three of them were like, Jesus Christ, you guys.

[Host 1]

They're like, why would you put this in? And I was like, because I'm curious how you think about classic stereotypes. Because gay guy stereotype, it is like, it's both embarrassing and annoying and true.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And so I'm like, how do you guys feel about it? Yeah, but c'est la vie.

[Host 2]

C'est la vie.

[Host 1]

I wanna say that as our string of records in New York comes to a near close, that's Right. I feel a little bit. I have that thing where I'm like, did I say everything?

[Host 2]

Mm. I.

[Host 1]

Even though we still have two recordings today, I think back, and I'm like, you know when a little kid is, like, really excited to do their dance for the parents, and then the parents are like, okay, dance, and they don't move at all.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

I feel like that's what I did. I feel like I was like, I'm so excited to fucking show them everything I've got. And then as soon as they're like, okay, we're recording, I'm like, so do you guys like blue or green better?

[Host 2]

Don't you think, though, that the concept of the big moment is, like, a straight thing? And actually, the more queer sensibility is that it's just all a performance.

[Host 1]

Well, that's. Your theory of Life is a cabaret, right?

[Host 2]

It's like, life is a cabaret.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

It's not that life is preparation for the big cabaret.

[Host 1]

The stage doesn't end when the stage does not end.

[Host 2]

Exactly. So it's like, if it's like the director yells cut, that doesn't mean you're like, fuck, I didn't do what I was gonna do. It's like, I'm gonna do it now. I don't give a shit if the cameras are gonna catch it.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I think that's true.

[Host 2]

We have to bring in our guest because we are absolutely edging, as always.

[Host 1]

This is truly exciting.

[Host 2]

I'm really excited.

[Host 1]

I'm excited. I'm nervous. I feel that, you know, we have prestigious guests sometimes, by the way.

[Host 2]

All the time.

[Host 1]

All the time.

[Host 2]

We love having prestigious guests, and they love doing the podcast.

[Host 1]

Let's take it.

[Host 2]

I just want to start there. It's actually, like, very common and not.

[Host 1]

To be sort of Animal Farm coded, but some prestigious guests are more prestigious than others.

[Host 2]

That's true. And I would say this one's, like, in the top tier of being prestigious. Yeah.

[Host 1]

And so while all are prestigious, some are more prestigious than others. And this is our most prestigious.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Okay. Well, you know her from her debut smash hit novel, Detransition Baby. You know her from her new book, Stag Dance, and you know her as the guest of this episode of Straight you'd Lab. Please welcome Tori Peters.

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Hi.

[Host 1]

Hi. What'd you think of our intro?

[Host 2]

Be honest.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I was very interested in your interpretations of lesbian culture. Yeah.

[Host 2]

I could see you. We were really, like, torturing you because we were saying all these things that we want your team.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I wanted to, like, Jump in on it. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Okay. Thoughts?

[PayPal Advertiser]

Well, I think you're correct about hands.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

I do think it was a sex.

[Host 2]

That's what.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Sex thing. Yeah, I think it was a sex thing. I don't think. I don't think anyone's going to be offended by that. You don't have to self cancel.

[Host 1]

I have to say it was as I'm currently, you know, we unpack the podcast as we record the podcast. That's part of it. As I sit in the middle seat, I was finding myself not able to look at you for approval and reactions. So I had no. The whole time, I was really flying blind.

[Host 2]

Tori was being very supportive.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah, I was like, thumbs up.

[Host 2]

Yeah, big smile.

[Host 1]

That's really helpful to know because I was like, what if we're bombing and I can't.

[Designer Shoe Warehouse Advertiser]

No.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I was wondering why you weren't making eye contact with me. Pointedly ignoring me.

[Host 1]

I was really focused in on George.

[Host 2]

And then what do you think about generally self cancellation? Like the idea that the lesbian small businesses started.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I mean, as you were saying that, I was like, oh, actually that is something that I think about. Like this. I'm wearing this jacket, for instance, and it's. I don't know if the owner of the company is a lesbian. I don't want to assume, but there's something kind of lesbian, Kamala, about the marketing of this. It's an Argent jacket.

[Host 2]

What was the marketing of it?

[PayPal Advertiser]

I know. Well, actually, Kamala I think is one of their. I think so. Like a pink power suit. And I was like, I want. I want exactly that to be like, I want to blend in on my book tour. So I got like. I was like. I asked some. Some fashion people, like, what should I get? And they're like, well, this is the. This is the thing in which nobody will have an opinion about your suit jacket.

[Host 2]

Land in being like, yeah. You don't want to be marked as, like, anything. Okay.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I want, like, nobody to notice it.

[Host 2]

I'm sorry, but is your T shirt. Does your t shirt say T4T?

[PayPal Advertiser]

It does.

[Host 2]

And you don't want to be. You don't want to be marked as other in any way.

[PayPal Advertiser]

That was a mistake. That was an addressing error today. Yeah. No, but I felt like. Like I want everybody to use my press photos. Basically. I have good press photos. And I found if I wore interesting clothing my last tour, it would be like these terrible candids that for whatever reason, especially Italian photographers love taking awful photos of me.

[Host 1]

There is a conspiracy afoot. Photographers want you.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I was just Chased by, like, untalented Italian photographers, taking terrible candidates and then doing SEO optimization on their terrible pictures.

[Host 1]

Wow.

[PayPal Advertiser]

And I think it was because they were like, oh, this is the. This is a different outfit than the press out than the press photos. So we'll do this.

[Host 1]

They felt like they were being unique.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah, exactly. So now I want to wear something that's, like, super bland. And if you were like, what's a good photo? They go with my press photo that is just available rather than, you know, bland in my. A bland, terrible candidate.

[Host 2]

I did notice that in the photo on the jacket of the book, you are wearing a white pantsuit.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I got rid of that one in the second printing.

[Host 2]

You are five steps ahead of us. Wait, so you thought that. Because that, to me, is very like Hillary Clinton meets Annette Bening doing actors on actors.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yes, that was kind of what I was going for. And there's such a history of writers wearing white suits. Like Tom Wolf and. Well, Steve Martin's not really.

[Host 2]

Yeah, no, Tom Wolf, Steve Martin.

[Host 1]

You're the big two.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Those are my two loads in dressing. But I was like, yeah, I think this is, like, going to be my suit era. But I've had to have a couple of restarts on what I want the suit to do.

[Host 2]

Okay, so then what is the new photo?

[PayPal Advertiser]

The new photo is going to be my bland suit. I want to switch it up. I mean, it's a good photo of me, but you don't really even notice a suit. You know, that one is very suit for that one.

[Host 2]

You notice.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah, it's like what you're wearing. You're doing a suit thing in the photo, and I'm sort of secondary to the suit.

[Host 1]

You're bringing up something I find really interesting, which is when you're launching sort of a new person, you have to make at least three missteps first. Yeah, like, I've been trying to go cowboy, and I'm not doing it today. But I was like. I leaned in way too hard at first. I was like, I'm going full cowboy. Like, I'm wearing, like, Wranglers cowboy boots. Tucking the shirt in, wearing the belt. And then it was like. It was, like, confusing. You had to pull back a lot, and then I had to pull back and, like, you can wear one. You can't do full cowboy. It's silly.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I feel that way about. About the white suit. I mean, I'll do that very occasionally. I think it's like a special thing. But I think it's like the first printing is a white Suit. And then we, we pull back.

[Host 1]

All right, Pull back.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

You got to see how far you can go. Take one thing off.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah, but that was like the. I think they were like, we're doing a reprint. And I was like, I have a new author photo.

[Host 1]

Does the idea of a book tour is that stressful or fun?

[PayPal Advertiser]

It's. It's fun for the first three weeks and then you're. It's not so much that it's stressful as you're tired of yourself.

[Host 2]

Sure.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Like, you get sort of. People want the greatest hits, you know, but like the greatest hits for you are like three jokes and like two ideas. And then you're like. And then if you deviate actually from it, it's usually the terrible nights is when you, when you think like, oh, I have a great new idea that I'm going to try out with this audience. And it's like, that was a, that was a bad idea.

[Host 2]

Isn't it also a self perpetuating thing where like the people that are interviewing you do their research, hear what you said in other interviews, and then they're like, we heard when you were a kid you had like a favorite doll. And so then you have to tell the story again and again and again. Yes.

[Host 1]

Oh, that's so interesting. I also realized talking about the podcast, while we make the podcast, me asking is it fun or boring to go on book tour was so like, little.

[Host 2]

Kid reporter, you're doing like Nickelodeon, like news for kids on Nickelodeon.

[Host 1]

So what's your favorite candy? Like? It was so.

[PayPal Advertiser]

But that was. This is like that what you were just saying in the intro, the big moment where you're like, do you like blue or green? You know, it's like you're just doing it. This is part of the process now you're doing it. And I relate to. Because when I was like 8 years old, I got a chance to interview Jane Goodall, the famous primatologist. And I panicked and I said, so you like monkeys? And it was like exactly this. It was like, I had thought about it, like, this is gonna be my moment. This is gonna be it. And that's just what came out, you know. So, yeah, a book tour is kind of sometimes boring.

[Host 1]

I have found that as an inter. You know, my childlike wonder can be really charming. But as an interviewer, it can also be quite confusing. I think it's sort of like, what are we doing here? You know?

[Host 2]

But I sort of think, I think someone being interviewed, ultimately not to project this onto you, but generally speaking, someone Being interviewed just wants to talk about what they want to talk about.

[Host 1]

Sure.

[Host 2]

And so giving them the most, like, nothing question is, like, the best thing you can do, because then they can just, like, monologue.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah, that's the advanced interviewing.

[Host 1]

It's just super.

[Host 2]

So what we've learned so far is don't do your research because you will ask the same questions. And in fact, don't ask questions because that is boxing the interviewee in.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. I felt your first ones were really constraining. Whereas fun or no was like, well, this is my moment to just monologue.

[Host 1]

The word fun is so funny to ask. Like an author. So is writing fun?

[Host 2]

Okay, here's a final stupid question for you.

[Host 1]

I have a second final stupid question.

[Host 2]

We're doing such a good job.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Okay, so my question for you is, like, I'm sure people are asking a lot of annoying questions. So my question for you is, what is, like, the question you wish someone would ask you that? No one ever would.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Let me tell you, that question. I get, like, every time.

[Host 1]

See, George, I was gonna not to be a bitch. I was about to say, I bet she gets, like, all the time. Really?

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. And then it's really hard because I'm like, well, that question is actually a very common one. And then also you have to come up with each time. Oh, my God. That. That. Because. Well, last time that I got asked this question, which was, you know, a few days ago, I came up with, like, this as the thing I wish that somebody would ask me. And then, like, by the end, you're just, like, kind of making up, like, random, like, I wish people would ask me about my shoes more, like, just because. No, everything else has been asked because of that specific question.

[Host 2]

I have a theory, and maybe this is completely wrong. Do you think it's because people are, like, uncomfortable with asking about big quotes, trans issues, that they don't want to say the wrong thing.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And so then they want you to tell them what to say.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Maybe that's it. There's two things that happens. And the other thing that happens is that people are very proud to have not asked about trans issues for an entire interview. So. But. But, like, the. How proud they are that, like, we've only talked about writing in this interview. Like, I don't even care that you're trans. You can, like, feel that so heavily. And, like, as. As they're, like, getting to the end, and it's like. And you've also only talked about writing, and we're kind of waiting for you to Bring it up. But also, we're proud that we never brought it up is like, that slowly pressurizes that, like, standoff, you know, that I'm in. And so I oftentimes will just break and be like, I'm trans.

[Host 2]

It's like Chekhovs. Chekhovs. Chekhov's trans representation. It's like, is it gonna be brought up?

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Wow. Okay, so what was your stupid question? And then we'll go into smart. Yeah, this is the smart part.

[Host 1]

Then we'll go into the smart section. I love the book. Thank you. You know, I was. I think I didn't expect how horny it would be, to be honest.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Really?

[Host 1]

I was so. I thought it was so horny.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I would agree, but I. I felt. Did you read my first book in.

[Host 2]

Yeah, we did.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I was like, not an entire.

[Host 1]

No. And honestly, if author was on here, I'd be like, no, but you. I did read.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

But that's interesting, because I feel like the first book was hornier. Like, you know, like, she gets, like, a ribbon tied around her junk. I mean, maybe. Maybe you were just like, that was sad. I did not like it.

[Host 1]

I felt like the stag dance, in particular, like, the big oaf guy, like, being, like, being like, treat me as the woman. I was like, yeah, yeah. That's, like, so hot.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I mean, I.

[Host 2]

Do you think it was just the horniness that, like. Like, you related to more than the.

[Host 1]

2020 that I related to more. I was like. Literally, I was like, oh, this is why I like to hook up with bi guys, because they're like, treat me like the woman.

[PayPal Advertiser]

They're so. And then it's so, like. Like, they're so titillated and excited by, like, look what I'm doing now. Yeah.

[Host 1]

So. And then my dumb question was, do you think writing is the horniest medium?

[Host 2]

Yeah. Rank them all the.

[Host 1]

Rank the mediums from horniest to least horny.

[PayPal Advertiser]

If it is horny, it's like a masturbatory horny. It's like a very, like, you're, like, alone kind of pleased with yourself and what you're like, I did it. Ooh, I liked it. You know, like, that's the scene maybe that you're thinking about in the lumberjack thing where the babe Bunyan, who's the oafish lumberjack, is hooking up with his boss in, like, a shanty. I wrote that one that day, and I was like. I don't know if I was like. Maybe I was a little turned on, but I'M also just, like, so smugly pleased with myself that there was something very masturbatory about my emotions that day that was like, I left that day of writing as though I had just, like, taken Adderall and like, gone into, like a porn wormhole for six hours.

[Host 1]

Are you ever like, okay, this is too horny. I have to pull back. Like, it's not. It's. It's too porny. It's too hot?

[PayPal Advertiser]

No, like, usually, usually it. If it is. If it is that, then I am happy. And it's like, maybe in like later edits, but like, anything that's like, too much. I like to sit with the too much for a while.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

And have somebody else tell me it made them uncomfortable.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I loved it. I felt like. Yeah. A lot of the horniness I was relating to and the sort of like, being like, why am I doing this? And then being like, but I can't stop.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. I mean, that for me is like the kind of horniness, the confusing horniness, I think is like a go to both. Something I go to, I guess, emotionally confused horniness. I'm just very comfortable there. And I also think it's like, I like characters who actually don't totally understand what's happening to them. And I feel like horniness, it is something that happens to you sometimes rather than something you do.

[Host 2]

Yeah. It's a curse and it's terminal.

[Host 1]

There are times when I've done. I'm walking to do something and I'm like, turn around, turn around. Don't do this. And it's like, but I have to. I won't rest until I go do this.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I'm too horny.

[Host 1]

I have to put my life in danger to go do this.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

No, it really feels like you're in Trainspotting, but instead of heroin, it's horniness.

[Host 1]

It's not right.

[Host 2]

Yeah. There's also, I think, similarly with how your characters deal with their horniness. I also think the way they deal with their own cruelty is kind of in the same. Like, they almost can't help it and can't understand where it's coming from. And they're half conscious of it and they're almost like just conscious enough to feel guilty and self loathing about it.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. I think we've entered the smart, smart question portion of the interview.

[Host 2]

It's like. Yeah, was that something like, was the almost like the relationship between cruelty and horniness something that was in your mind?

[PayPal Advertiser]

Well, I think cruelty is very intimate. Right. Like, I think that, like, when you don't know somebody and you do something, like, awful to them, that's just like, sort of brutality. But that when you know somebody and you know their, like, vulnerabilities and, like, the, like, the soft parts of them, and then you, like, kind of can't help yourself, maybe, because, like, you know them so well and you're just so, like, frustrated or irritated or annoyed that you just, like, go for those vulnerable areas. I mean, that's very intimate, right? To know somebody so in all their soft parts. So I think that, like. And that's exactly kind of what you want to know if you're horny too. So there is the cruelty and the horniness.

[Host 2]

Oh, my God. Cruelty is finding the emotional G spot.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yes, exactly. I'm going to borrow that for when I go on tour, going to the uk. I think that they'll love it.

[Host 2]

Oh, my God. Yeah. You were telling me that I. You know what? You're going to have a lovely time in London. Go to the West End, see some plays. What a time.

[Host 1]

The other thing, this is more of a reflection of. Of my stupidity rather than a question. Okay.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Please.

[Host 2]

Our confidence is really coming from his interviewers.

[Host 1]

Well, you know that meme.

[PayPal Advertiser]

It's a good start. Yeah.

[Host 1]

You know, that meme that's like me as someone who has only seen Trolls 2 World Tour, watching, you know, the Godfather. Wow. This is just like trolls 2 world tour. I feel like the only books that I've read that are about, like, hard fiction books about gender are like, Ursula K. Le Guin. So the whole time I was like, like, especially, like the first story, I was like, wow, this is just like Ursula Guin.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I will take it. I mean, as opposed to Trolls 2. If you're like, this is just like Trolls 2 World Tarot. Like Ursula Le Guin. Absolutely.

[Host 1]

I was. I liked. I felt like it was fun that you were going so big and like, sci fi with it. Like.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. So, like, I was. I wanted to do. The premise for people who haven't read it is It's. Each piece is, like, in a different genre. And that one, the first one is like a speculative fiction dystopian one about, like, a gender apocalypse. But I think it was also like, that was the first one that I wrote and it was because I think I was like. It was like 2016 and, like, last of Us, the video game come out. It was like the Road and all this other thing. And I was like, what genre is Everybody into in 2016? And it was kind of. Yeah, like grimy grimy, post apocalyptic stuff. Whereas, like, now I think I would. I would never do, like, a pandemic.

[Host 1]

Yeah, right.

[Host 2]

Oh, so that was written. I'm sure you've talked about this, but it was written pre pandemic.

[PayPal Advertiser]

It was pre pandemic. Yeah. Which, like, I think is. People are always like, why don't you expand that one into a full novel? And it's like, I don't think you want me to do that. Like, I think you've kind of gone through it yourself.

[Host 2]

Totally, totally. Although we were saying how now it's been long enough. Enough. Actually, Hari was saying this, right? Someone was saying, like, it's now been long enough that people are craving narratives about 2020. Not just the pandemic, but, like, even just, like, where the culture was in 2020 and how we were also unmoored from reality because we were, you know, just like, undergoing this, like, insane experience all together, but also alone.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So I'm almost like. Like, it's like, to pick something like that back up now or even in like, another three years.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah, I mean, I. I felt actually like the other day when. When Trump announced all of his tariffs, like, and I felt the world kind of stopped for like a day. I had like a real, like, what does this feel like? What does this feel like? And then I was like, oh, it feels like March 2020, where everyone's like, is the economy crashing? Do I have a job? Like, should I stockpile, like, fill up my bathtub or whatever weird shit we were doing in 2020. Yeah, I had like, a real, like, I called it, like, a snow day. Like, I don't remember what it was. Last week was like a. It was like a pandemic snow day where I was like, is the world over? And I kind of wish that, like, yeah, that that had. There had been, like, more culture about that weird feeling because I feel like apparently we're gonna just keep on having.

[Host 2]

Well, that's the thing. I think we've been like, micro dosing March 2020. It's like every few days you just go through, like, a less intense version of it, and it's like, shorter and. And more painful rather than this, like, long, drawn out thing. Okay. I'm, like, so eager to get on the topic. We should do our first segment.

[Host 1]

Let's do our first segment.

[Host 2]

Okay, Tori.

[Bowen Yang]

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[Host 2]

Sam, do you want to.

[Host 1]

Our first segment is called Straight Shooters and in this segment we're going to ask you a series of rapid fire questions to gauge your familiarity with and complicity in straight culture. It's basically this thing or this other thing and the only rule is you can't ask any follow up questions or we'll scream at you.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Can I ask a pre question?

[Host 1]

I think that might be a follow up question. And while you I wanted to say yes to. I have to be.

[Host 2]

No. Honest.

[Host 1]

Honest and real.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I also was tempted to say yes because I was. I was like, well, she's an author.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I was like, well, this isn't right.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I'm putting as much gravitas as I can to get away with to break the rules of your podcast.

[Host 2]

Should I start? Okay, we'll start simple. Being the goat or sinking a boat.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Sinking a boat.

[Host 1]

Okay. A dream come true Or a steaming pot of stew.

[PayPal Advertiser]

A steaming pot of stew.

[Host 2]

Design within reach. Or a headline that says impeachment?

[PayPal Advertiser]

I like design within reach.

[Host 1]

A task that's Sisyphusian or a rash that's syphilisian?

[PayPal Advertiser]

Oh, probably a task that's Sisyphusian.

[Host 1]

Good job.

[Host 2]

Okay. Being queer and in stem or drinking beer, but being femme.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Ooh. Oh, wow. Wow. I'm gonna say drinking beer and being fun.

[Host 1]

Okay. Okay. Lou Tuveloo or Mama Roux.

[PayPal Advertiser]

What was the middle one?

[Host 1]

Tuvelou.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I don't know what that is.

[Host 1]

Tovalo's actual pronouncing of the name.

[PayPal Advertiser]

You answered a follow up. Got you. Got you.

[Host 1]

We're having a constitutional crisis.

[Host 2]

This is our pandemic. This is 2020 all over again.

[Host 1]

People are hitting the street. Streets.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Well, obviously not Juve Lou.

[Host 2]

Let's see, which one do I want to do? The Taming of the Shrew or Defaming Lucy Liu Defaming Lucy Liu.

[Host 1]

Face card never declines or. Oh, my God, that's Ray Fines.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I like Ray Fines. I'm excited to see Ray Fines. Oh, my God, it's Ray Fines.

[Host 1]

I'm actually excited to see Ray Fines as well. Whenever I see him, I'm like, wow, that's Ray Fine.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And also there's, you know what ralphien says to me? You know how people. When you know how to say Louisville, right? You get to have like a step up over like 60% of people. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Like that's you and Rafe.

[Host 1]

Literally, like, I see that name and I go, I know how to say that.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Okay, so give.

[Host 1]

Because it's not spelled like Ralph.

[Host 2]

It's spelled Ralph, but it's Rafe.

[Host 1]

Yeah. It's spelled Ralph Fieanes. And you say. You say Rafines.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Rafines. Yeah. You're in the know. Yeah.

[Host 2]

So Dory, we rank each guest's performance on a scale of 0 to 1. 1000 doves and or 0 to 1000 blades of blades of grass. We haven't decided based on two Lady Gaga songs.

[Host 1]

Two Lady Gaga songs.

[Host 2]

I have to say, here's what I'm struggling with. I'm like, do we reward the boldness of asking a follow up question because she beat us at her own game, or do we punish because she did the one thing that is.

[Host 1]

Well, you know, I believe a wise man once said that cruelty is the G spot. So I. Oh, my God, you did that to us.

[Host 2]

You, like, found. You found our one weakness and used it against us.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I made it pleasurable.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Yeah, Literally.

[Host 1]

I think we should punish.

[Host 2]

Oh, okay. We should punish. Okay. So I would say without the follow up question, it would have been 930 doves.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that's accurate.

[Host 2]

But with a deduction of 600. 600. It's gonna go ahead and be 335 doves. I'm so sorry, Tori. That's not a passing score.

[PayPal Advertiser]

But what is that in blades of grass?

[Host 2]

Okay, so there's inflation when it comes to blades of grass.

[Host 1]

Blades of.

[PayPal Advertiser]

In terms of the braids of grass, I get.

[Host 2]

It's more closer to like 650.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it's more closer to $6.50. Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

That's a good exchange rate.

[Host 2]

You can literally take your brides and.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Blades of grass like in other countries. I'll do. All right.

[Host 2]

When you're in the uk, you can.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Pay all the blades of grass.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

You're actually somehow making money. Yeah. Suddenly you have more than a thousand.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I'm so glad I Did this podcast before I went over.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God, hiring a horse. Should we get into the straight topic? I would love to hear. So behind the scenes, George knows the top topic. I do not. And I'm so excited to hear what straight topic is and what's straight about it.

[PayPal Advertiser]

So it's a working theory, but my straight topic is prolonged divorce. And my theory is that you don't know if you're in a gay marriage or a straight marriage until you get divorced. And it's how long, how prolonged your divorce is that determines how gay or straight your marriage is.

[Host 2]

And the more prolonged the straighter, the.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Straighter it is, the more prolonged your marriage. And it doesn't really matter your gender, how you identify. It's like when you don't know and then you get divorced and if it goes on, like, two years. Oh, you were in a straight marriage the whole time.

[Host 1]

Because the queer thing is being like, I don't take my possessions. I don't care.

[PayPal Advertiser]

No, I don't think it's even like that. I think, like. But I think it's like. I think it's like you just can't let go. And I think it's like, you can't let go. Cause, like, of you're just like, have ended up very hetero in your thing where, like, one person knows how to cook. One person knows where, like, the drain on the sink is. And you can't leave each other because you're like, how am I gonna drain the sink without this person? How am I gonna turn on the stove or do all these things? And so you just, you just. You dry it out forever. And because I'm 43 now, and I'm like, I had one round of. Well, I had a divorce myself, but like, a round of divorces with, like, age 30 and now. And I think it was mostly like, queer ish. People who were getting divorced at 30, where they were, like, usually discovering they were queer or something, and they're like, I gotta go. And now it's like straight people in my Life, in their 40s, and they are just. Just drawing it out for years, and I'm just like. And everything that they do is so straight. Just like, you can just stop this. Just stop it.

[Host 2]

Don't you think it has to do with, like, the more you buy into the institution, for lack of a better word, the more violent it is to break it apart? Because it's like, yes, the more you believe in marriage, the more difficult it is to step away from it. Like, you have literally, it's all been leading to that.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. And I think that's actually what drives me crazy about this is like, every, like, just get away from each other. Like, just, you don't need this. Like, you'll be happier. And, like. And they just can't see it. Yeah, they can't see that, like, it needs to end. You're torturing each other. And there's something like, I'm just like, Just like this. What is happening is like, straightness is torturing you all, rather than, you know, even each other are torturing each other. And I've noticed that actually, like, again, like, it doesn't even have to be straight people. Like, there's some gay marriage couples that I know where I'm just like, the way you're doing this is like, you've believed in it too much. You've, like, entered into straightness and it's. And I didn't know it the whole time you were together, but now that you're divorcing, I see that you were in a straight marriage all totally.

[Host 2]

I actually, I think more broadly, since gay people have been able to get married, there is a spectrum of, on the one side, gay people almost like, wanting to emulate straight people, and on the other side, being excited to do something new with this new. Right. You know what I mean? And so it's like there's a spectrum of straight to gay marriage within gay marriage.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I agree with that.

[Host 1]

Wow.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I agree with that. And I mean, I even think, like, you were saying that, like, on a previous show that you had. You had classified, what was it?

[Host 2]

Divorce is lesbian marriage is straight. And, like, staying together without getting divorced is gay male. Because they're like.

[Host 1]

But like, they don't hook up anymore.

[Host 2]

Yeah, like, staying in an unhappy marriage basically is gay male. Because they're all open, so they don't feel the need to escape because they just like, can escape every night, basically, but just like, come home and resent their husband. And of course, the classic thing, my favorite thing, when it's a gay couple and they're like, in a fight, another person enters the room and one of the husbands goes, oh, look, there's your boyfriend.

[PayPal Advertiser]

That's good. But see, to me, that is like that even. Okay, so if you just take that, like, gay couple not having sex together forever, that is either like the most kind of like, oh, you've solved marriage, like, you are like the most enlightened thing, or it's actually like you have like, reverted to such straightness that, like.

[Host 2]

It'S like 1950s house.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. Or even like the Catholic Church in, like the 1500s. Like, divorce does not exist for you. You just have to live with each other and like, and like, dream one day of, like, how could we possibly separate? It's unthinkable. God does not allow it.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[PayPal Advertiser]

You know, and it's like, that's the straightest. The straightest you could possibly be. Is. Is. Is two gay men living together.

[Host 2]

No, Literally.

[Host 1]

It is interesting. It is almost always, like, obviously there's no right answer, but I'm sort of like, is that better? Like, there's so many guys where I am, like, could you just break up? Like, let's call it, like, it would be so much better if you just broke up.

[Host 2]

It is interesting how that is almost the default for long term gay guy relationships.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Where then everyone under their breath is like, yeah, they're always like this. It's so good.

[PayPal Advertiser]

And like, even the bickering that you, that you just said, oh, there's your boyfriend or whatever, it's like that you just stage that with slightly different actors and you're like, oh, this is the most conservative British period piece that we're watching.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I'm finding this really interesting because. Okay, so basically, is finality gay or straight? I think is like a larger question and out of. Go ahead.

[Host 1]

I think finality is more straight, to be honest. And I think that's why they make it last longer, because they know when it's over, it's actually over. Whereas when gay people are breaking up, they are like, we are divorced. It's over, but we still get lunch every three months.

[Host 2]

Right, right, right. So finality is straight in that there's a gravity to it that straight people are afraid of. They're like, I will do anything but finality.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So in their fight against finality, they are, like, hurting themselves.

[Host 1]

Yeah. When they could, they could sort of. The life is a cabaret thing, you know, Gay people know when the cameras, the stage, you're still on stage. And so, you know, when the marriage is over, you're still gonna have a relationship with the person. It's just a different relationship. Whereas straight people are like, when the cameras are off, I'm off stage.

[Host 2]

Got it.

[PayPal Advertiser]

But I also think that the willingness to be final would be gay. Like a willingness to, like to lean in and be like, I'm breaking ties, I'm changing everything.

[Host 2]

Well, to make a statement.

[PayPal Advertiser]

So. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, everything's new about me now. Like that. That's. Is that that?

[Host 2]

Well, it's Like, I'm wearing the combo.

[Host 1]

Well, that's what I was gonna say. They're literally debuting like, a I'm divorced era. And then they're like, actually, I'm pulling back. I'm not fully out.

[Host 2]

Well, there's also something, I think, like, gay people, because they kind of have this reverence for, like, a diva, a straight woman, like a divorcee. I almost think, like, to be divorced is so fabulous, whereas, like, for a sort of, like, a straight woman who married her high school sweetheart, it's such a sign of failure.

[Host 1]

It is a real sign of failure. I mean, to be divorced in, like, the Sex and the City universe is fabulous.

[Host 2]

Well, that is, of course, fabulous.

[Host 1]

But I do think in, like, normal world, it can be quite difficult.

[Host 2]

What do you think of the recent. And you cannot answer this if you don't want to comment on your peers, but there's been sort of a recent rise in, like, divorce literature. Yeah. Mostly from women, I would say.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

In my experience, like, what do you think that is about?

[PayPal Advertiser]

Well, it was like. I mean, that was like the detransition baby. My first book was dedicated to divorce CIS women.

[Host 2]

Oh, yes, that's right.

[PayPal Advertiser]

So it was like, I felt like I was very much a part of this, like, divorce thing. And, like, you know, kind of what I was saying is, like, divorce is a transition in the same way that, like, you know, because you. You. You live your life a certain way and then you. And then you make a decision, and then you have to, like, go forward and not get bitter. And also, you can't just, like, go get married again in the same way with the same illusions. Otherwise you're going to end up divorced again. And so I was like, oh, like, we can all understand each other. And I. But I feel that this is actually. And so I was like, oh, we can build bridges. We can understand each other. And, like, actually, like, you can, like, divorce straight CIS women. You can sort of be trans in a little bit of your way. But this is actually sort of the 2020s culture that I feel like maybe Hari was talking about that you were talking about. I feel like that actually now to me feels a little bit naive. Like, this sort of like, oh, we can all just kind of understand and take responsibility for our actions and not lie to each other. I think that that's not true. For having watched people that now get divorced, I'm like, oh, no, you're just gonna continue to lie to each other. And to some degree, like, for me, like, watching, like, trans shit over like, the last four years is like, oh, no, this is, like. Like, you can understand trans people. And actually, it's not gonna. It's not gonna make anything any better. So I'm, like, a little bit, like, down on divorce literature right now. Although I think there's, like, lots of good books that do it. I'm sort of like. It's like, I actually don't want to reread the whole, like, Ferrante series, which, like, in 2000s, you've been like, do you want to reread Ferrante? I'd be like, any day, all the time. I'll do it. I'm like, actually want, like, more things burned down now than I wanted. Than I want.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Like, so you're sort of. You've turned on divorce as an optimistic kind of.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. Like, and I don't know what replaces it, but I. But sort of like, oh, you can just kind of, like, go through this ritual, take stock of, like, what you want and who you are, and that's gonna be, like, enough to, like, move forward. I, like, don't. At this moment, like, I sort of don't believe it. Like, I feel like, oh, you. You. Something more than that needs to happen. Like, that. And. And I. And in that metaphor of, like, divorce and transition, like, I also think that, like, it goes across for transition where, like, it was a. There was a while where I was like, oh, you just transition, and then you. And then you can live your life as you want. It's like, that's not enough anymore.

[Host 1]

Well, that was the plot of Emilia Perez.

[Host 2]

Yeah, that's actually not the plot of Emilia Perez, if you remember the ending. But.

[Host 1]

Well, I think what she's saying is the plot where it's like, you think you can change.

[Host 2]

Oh, I see. Oh, the critique is the plot of Emilia Perez.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

And then you. I haven't seen the. I've only watched, like, clips of it, but I understand that somebody falls down a mountain at the head.

[Host 2]

Listen, we can't get it.

[Host 1]

She's gonna go ahead and fall down the mountain and explode.

[Host 2]

Yeah, she explodes.

[Host 1]

It's kind of the best way for any movie to end, and I actually think more movies should end that way.

[Host 2]

It's so complicated. I've spent so much time thinking about Emilia Perez.

[PayPal Advertiser]

My problem. I started watching it on a plane, and I was. Was just like, this isn't the place for. For this movie and for me. And, like. And I got. When I started this tour, I got so many. Again, not to be like, so many questions are the same, but I got a lot of like, what do you think of Emilia Perez? And I was like, halfway through watching on a plane, kind of not understanding what was going on, and I was like, and then I'm going to go and like a pine about this movie, totally not understanding the edited version of it. So I just, I turned it off and I haven't returned to it.

[Host 2]

I have to say, it's interesting that there's this idea of trans backlash against Emilia Perez, because every trans person I know has opted out of seeing it and they've been very much like, you know, I'm not at a place where I can watch that right now. Like, it's. I actually think the, the backlash is almost like manufactured by CIS people who are guilty about watching it or something. And then like, imagine an imaginary mob of trans people that are mad at Emilia Perez.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I think there's something to that. The backlash is like. I'm like, okay, it does feel like, what are we doing here?

[Host 2]

It almost reminds me of my favorite topic, which is the women that got sent to space and how we're at a place where something like that, which in 2016 and 2017 would be the big news of the day. No one cares enough either to be empowered by it or to be angry about it.

[Host 1]

It's just a numbness.

[Host 2]

It's just a numbness. Like, don't. Can't you imagine like a. A time in like, 2015 where like, every website would be have like a screed about, like, the pitfalls of Girl Baser and like, blah, blah. It's like no one gives a anymore.

[PayPal Advertiser]

No, I mean, it's just like. But it's. It's sort of like also like, we've seen this Griff so many times too. It's like we've seen it with like a deep water submarine. We've seen it like, it's that one.

[Host 1]

Was that one hit, though that kind of also ended in an Amelia Pres. Way.

[Host 2]

Yeah, that's true.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I remember that. That's if it. I guess if that. If. If they had fallen down a mountain and exploded.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

That spaceship full of Katy Perry and Gail King and stuff people would have talked about.

[Host 1]

No, I'm sorry.

[PayPal Advertiser]

But that's what we need now.

[Host 1]

Committed to sending a message.

[Host 2]

They should have explored to recreating Amelia Perez, then they would have exploded. But I also. It's almost like Emilia Perez is like the trans representation version of women in space for girl bosses, where it's like, we've now gone through the conversation and not just trans representation, any kind of, of like representation politics. We've now gone through the debate of like, is it good, Is it bad? Is a good, is it bad? So many times that something like Camila Perez comes along and I'm almost just like unable to even form an opinion about it. Yeah, it's like remixing existing arguments that have been had so many times.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Including even like the trans backlash, right?

[Host 2]

Yeah, exactly.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Like imagined mob of like somehow trans people who all have the same opinion. It's like you have not met trans people if you think there's a mob of them that are somehow in lockstep or like can even like not just be like cats, like batting at each other if you put them together, you know, like that is, you've, that's imagined. It's a totally imagined situation that they can chant the same thing at the same time.

[Host 2]

This honestly goes back to the lesbian owned business that's doomed to fail. It's like they're not agreeing in those meetings.

[Host 1]

I mean also in the massacre, the last story of the book, it was, that was very. That where it was like, this is. Everyone's like, it's a meetup, but everyone's on such a different page.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. I mean sometimes it's like the, when I talk about that, it's like, it's like we're all kind of, we're all kind of like standing in the same public square. But like we, we all came from like all four cardinal directions. And if you'd be like, how'd you get here? You'd be like, I came over that hill and I saw a cow. And it's like, I have no idea what journey you took. I have no idea the landmarks on your way. Like everything you're saying is alien and strange to me. And the only thing that we have is that we're kind like standing in like, like a general vicinity. We're not at the same table. It's like I see you like, oh, you had, you're eating ice cream and I'm having a coffee, you know?

[Host 1]

Yeah. It is interesting. I do feel like there's a push to try to like make it seem like almost like trans people are the like, like gay guys. Where it's like the culture of gay guy is Lady Gaga. And it's like it doesn't, it's not one to one.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also think that like that ends up being like the useful thing is that like, let's, let's, let's pretend that all trans people, like, are out here in a mob telling us what we can or can't say. And it's like they just. It's not.

[Host 2]

And they were all appointed by Biden.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah, exactly.

[Host 2]

It was Biden appointed the trans mob.

[Host 1]

The head of which was the suitcase dealer, my favorite character.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Oh, yeah, yeah, that was a good Biden appointee.

[Host 1]

That was a really good Biden appointee. Yeah, that was like, Biden kind of ate with that one.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah, that. That was. That. That.

[Host 1]

Sorry.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Just laughing. Picturing that person and picturing also, like, the protests. Like, the way that that person protested. Like, I did steal the suitcase, but.

[Host 1]

Like, wearing outfits all over town. So genius. I also. Now there's a thing. I feel very conspiratorial around Internet backlash in general because it feels like. Like, websites are basically like, we need to find four tweets, and then we can say there's a backlash. And, like, it's not a backlash.

[Host 2]

But also, I have become so conspiratorial. I mean, I. I've become so conspiratorial about literally everything being paid bots, which is. I remember in when people were like, when whatever, like the kind of stereotypical center lib, you know, 50 year old post Trump was like, the Russians. Russian bots, like, it's Cambridge Analytica. And I was like, oh, God, you guys need to get it together now. I have become that, but for, like, a thread that's like, you know, Azealia Banks worst moments. I'm like, someone paid for that thing. Is the Blake Lively, like, the Blake Lively thing. The only conclusion I drew from that is like, okay, so it's all fake. There's no one actually mad at Blake Lively. Or there's no one that actually in their mind is like, wow, she actually was really rude to that interviewer. It's literally just like someone behind the scenes at BLEEP Agency.

[PayPal Advertiser]

But that. That's a very appealing worldview in some ways. It actually makes you sound very chill. Like, even though it makes you sound like you're, like, wearing a tin. Yeah, it's like, also, like, you're like the chillest tin hat wearer. You're like, it's just. It's just the bots.

[Host 2]

Sure.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Totally, totally chill out. Everybody loves Blake Clapton.

[Host 1]

It's actually. Yeah, it is kind of beautiful. You're even like, no one's mad.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yeah. But then I'm also like, the most. Well, I'm like, no one's mad. But then I'm also like, we're living in, like, the last of us post apocalyptic world because no one knows what's real or what's fake.

[Host 1]

Yeah. But soon it'll all be over.

[Host 2]

Oh, that's true. We can agree on that.

[PayPal Advertiser]

It's kind of cheerful.

[Host 2]

This is very stagnant. Soon it'll all be over.

[Host 1]

Soon it'll all be over. Who cares? C'est la vie. We're a c'est la vie based podcast nowadays.

[Host 2]

Sam loves saying C'est la vie.

[Host 1]

I find it to be a really powerful mantra. You know, I find it. There's a silliness to it. There's a sort of detachment to it, and I think both of those are really important right now.

[Host 2]

Tori, I want to give you a challenge, which is, you know, for each of these stories, you experimented with a different genre. I would love to see you experiment with the genre of middlebrow humor essays of the type that you find at airports. And I want you to write a book that's called, like, you know, someone's.

[Host 1]

On my seat, not me writing a book for you to read on the.

[Host 2]

Airplane and other concerns.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I mean, I feel like that's actually, like, the dream for me is that, like, you know, you get, like, you get like a. I feel like actually a lot of, like, really great writers get to a point in their life where they're, like, offered a cruise, you know, and then writers do cruises. Oh, yeah. Like the famous, like, David Foster Wallace. Like a supposedly fun thing. You never. Yeah, never done.

[Host 2]

Whatever it is I'll never do again.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I'll never do it. Like, it's like. It was like, he basically just like, I get to go on, like, a carnival cruise or whatever, and I'll, like, try and elevate it. And then he was like, riffing on, like, Frank Conroy going on a carnival on some other cruise where you get.

[Host 2]

Gary Steingart just did it.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Gary Steingart. I mean, Gary Steingart loves to go on, like, a paid travel thing.

[Host 2]

Like, I know, but I'm also like, I. Stan, I know.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Absolutely. Like, I love to hear him, like, in Dubai being like, I am eating chicken hearts and you're like. Or whatever it is that he's saying. It's like, and you got paid $10,000 to do this and, like. And you don't care. Like, the way. I mean, I love the way that Gary Steingart doesn't care. That was like, I just wrote an entire novel about Rolexes.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

You know, that's like, that's just. I have a nice watch. I like my watch. And now that's my novel. Like, I kind of appreciate his, like, his, like, just. Just what I've gotten recently for free is the thing that interests me. And I understand that.

[Host 1]

You know, when you said writers go on cruises, I was thinking about comedians going, like, I was, like, doing Q and A. I was like, they're performing.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I mean, it's sort of similar, though. Like, Lauren Euler went on the Goop.

[Host 2]

Cruise as guests on this podcast.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. Lauren Euler did it and did, like. And did the same. You know, very, very funny. But did the same thing where it's like, now that I'm on a cruise as a writer, I'm going to reference every other writer who was on a cruise as a sort of, like, way of. Like, this is a literary tradition. And also, I got a free cruise.

[Host 2]

I think it's great. I know people do roll their eyes at that genre, but I'm like, it's fun to. It's fun for something to be, like, a thing you revisit. I'm trying to think of what an equivalent thing is for. It's like, even, honestly, Chelsea Peretti in her special, when she's like, every comedian, every male comedian fucks the stool. Like, does an act where they fuck the stool. And so, Chelsea, how do you make it yours? Yeah, how do we make yours? And so Chelsea's thing is, like, I want to sort of riff on that. By doing. For me, it's. I'm passively taking it from the stool. She's just like. Is, like, right by the stool, and she's just, like, sitting there, and then she's like. And then things got crazy, and she turns around and her butt is towards the stool, and she's just sitting there. But it's like. Yeah, that's actually what culture is.

[Host 1]

No, it's how you interpret it and reference it.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. I mean, if someone offered me a cruise at this point, it's, like, got such a tradition that I wouldn't just be like. I would, of course, be like, I'm a little bit selling out and I taking the cruise, but I would also be like, like, sort of like, I'm in that camp. Like, I'm with Warren Euler.

[Host 2]

You and Gar.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. Kerry Steingart camp. Like, that's quite. I'm quite honored to be. To be offered the chance to sell out for our cruise. And, I mean, I would. I would do it.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

No, you take in a heartbeat.

[Host 1]

Well, cruise directors, here's your chance. Magazines, etc.

[Host 2]

Mm. Although, you know, cruises are actually really scary because. Did you read the. That New York mag piece about cruises? About the people that got left behind and then could not make their way back? Do you know what I'm talking about? So there are these people on a cruise and they like, they were dropped off at one of the stops and then were like running to get back on the cruise ship, but the cruise ship left without them. And then it describes this. They went, weren't. Basically, cruise ships have no liability whatsoever. Like, no laws apply to them. People like a shocking number of people die on cruises every year and no one is held accountable. These people were trying to get back on the cruise and the cruise is just like, we don't care. Like, we're just gonna like do our thing. They had medical issues that they didn't have their medicine for because the medicine was still on the cruise. It was just. It's like this insane thing that you're sort of like basically just putting your life in their. In the cruise. Cruise ship companies hands.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Is it that. It's like the law of the sea applies. It's like maritime laws.

[Host 2]

Yes, it's a combination of that and also some version of basically cruise company lobbying such that they're very loosely regulated.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I mean, I guess I sort of hear about those sort of like weird ghost ships of like cruise cruise ships where everybody has norovirus at the same time. And like.

[Host 2]

And the most scary thing is that cruise people like people that. Because the thing with cruise people is that, that most people on a cruise are serial cruise ship goers. It's like a cult. Yeah. And so when you raise these points to them, it's like you're talking to a Scientologist. Like, they don't accept, like, you'll be like, they're like bots. Because the. Bridget Reed, the writer who wrote the story, like, interviewed a lot of cruise ship people and they like, would not accept that cruise ship companies make mistakes. Like they were just. And they would be mad at the people who got left. And they were like, well, they told us like, you have to be back by 10. Meanwhile, someone's dying that is very religious.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Sort of.

[Host 1]

Yeah, well, this is maybe a point to. We need to sort of lower the bar for the type of like the writer that can go on a cruise ship. It shouldn't be like sort of you've made a really successful career and now you get to do cruise ship. They need to get beginning journalists out there.

[Host 2]

It should be an unpaid internship.

[Host 1]

It should be an unpaid internship because we need more journalists on cruise Ships to uncover what is going on.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

[Host 1]

Enough sort of language about what it means to be on a cruise cruise and more about like the crimes that are being committed.

[Host 2]

Actually, I have a question for you, Tori. We were talking about this at some point, what would the contemporary version of specifically David Foster Wallace in that era going on a cruise should be like, yes, the writer going on a cruise is a tradition and everyone does it. But at this point it's so refer. It's so referencing past cruise ships that it's barely about like, it's not really about like what it says about society that we go on cruise ships. Like, the contemporary thing would be something like what is so like Lynchian and postmodern about society that you. That someone would comment on? Like, is it going to like an influencer conference? Is it going to like, what is so depraved about our society that now you would want like a highbrow writer to perform analysis on?

[PayPal Advertiser]

Okay, well, I have two thoughts on that. One is that I feel like this, like one of the things that's happened is that this genre has been like, sort of exhausted. Like we're going to find the Lynchian thing so like, even. And it ends up becoming like depraved in the practice of it. Like, I feel like the number of writers who are like, I'm going to like a right. I'm going to go hang out with like right wing influencers and try and like make them interesting to us. Like, I'm. It makes me like sick.

[Host 2]

It's like a morally bankrupt project.

[PayPal Advertiser]

It's like this, this, this idea of like, oh, we're just going to find out what the, what the. You know, we're going to find out what the fascists think. You know, their little. And their little fascist, like, oh, they wear this hat or they wear this shoe. Ooh, interesting. It's like that's. We're no longer like at the state fair with David Foster Wallace. We're like, we're laundering something when we do this. So I'm like, I'm kind of like, I'm kind of like in the typical magazine version of this, I'm like, this, this thing is. It doesn't work anymore now. And so like, because I too am always like, what. What is a great magazine assignment that I could like pitch for myself where I get to go do something kind of enjoyable and eat nice food and you know, I absolutely want that, you know, and, and that I. But that I. Something while I'm doing it. And like, most of the things I could be saying are like kind of awful at this point. But I will say that I think that probably the frontiers on this are like, I would like to see a serious writer take on discord gooning.

[Host 1]

Yeah. No, this is so good. I'm so glad you said this.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah, that was like. I feel like it's not. Not a thing in life, but like that there's like whole like cultures that like, I need somebody that are like, that are like, not like, oh, it's like a great place you go to. But like the like. I didn't know about discord gooning until like last year. And then I was like fascinated with discord gooning and I.

[Host 2]

Wait, can you actually explain what it is?

[PayPal Advertiser]

So like, you have like whatever your fetish is, right? It's like there's discords.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Right where your thing is. You sign on to a discord and there's like, like there's like thousands of other people on these discords and that. Like, then you like spend all day gooning, you know, like, but, but like it's, it's like so it's like a. It's like I knew about this basic thing from like chat when I was like a kid or like, oh, like, you know, asl age sex. And then you're kind of like, I'm in it with you. I'm like doing a thing. But it's like so overwhelmingly like, like sensory attack now where it's like you can be in voice channels. You, as you're gooning with other people in voice channels, you're sending them every two seconds like some porn. That's like their triggers. Like you're like breaking each other's brains in the discord goon. You know, as you're just masturbating for like, you know, on Adderall for hours and hours and hours. And you have like, like marathon endurance for it. And like. And then. And to me I'm just like, this explains so much. Like, like I kind of like, when I see people, I'm like. And I'm like, why are they doing this thing? It's like, well, they're probably of like 22 hours of gooning. Like, I also would be making.

[Host 1]

I never know what people are going through. You never know what people are going through. I'm so glad you brought this up. I learned about discord like jerk off groups recently.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And I haven't. Luckily, I'm technically untalented, so I haven't found my way in.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

But I was like, well, I've got to check that out.

[PayPal Advertiser]

There is a level of tech to do it that is like. That is like. Like, I wanted to. I wanted to see it. And I'm like, you have to really be invested. But I feel like once you're investing, invested, it seems that the payoffs are hot. It's like, once you're in, you're like, I'm set. Like, I don't need the real world anymore.

[Host 1]

It's great that people are getting weirder in a way that I am finding myself curious about. I am like, I follow a guy on porn Twitter that puts his full ID up and is just like, just humiliate me. And I'm like, wow. He puts his phone and he's like, just text me and tell me I'm pitiful. And I'm like, this is weird.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. And I just don't think that, like, real life can. Can achieve that level of like, like dopamine, sensory humiliation. Like, if it's like, I was weird, you know, like, on the street, and like, some people just were like. And like, you know, a few people snickered, and you're like, I was mildly humiliated. But when you have, like, 20,000 people on the Internet, Damn. Doing that, it's like you're. The sensory overload that is possible for this kind of thing now is so fascinating. Well.

[Host 1]

And then the sensory overload becomes the point. I've seen so many things of, like, porn is my life. I will quit your family and watch porn. And it's crazy where it's like, the religion of porn becomes the new thing.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. And I need a respectable writer who's not part of this. I want Barbara Kingsolver.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

And I'm just, like, doing, you know, this is the culture of gooning. I've. I've uncovered it.

[Host 1]

I. That's so genius.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

You know, I. We started this horny, and we're ending it horny. I really appreciate that.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I want them to, like, uncover the Big Goon.

[Host 1]

The Big Goon has not been exposed.

[PayPal Advertiser]

No, the Big Goon has not been exposed.

[Host 2]

And you know what's actually sick is like, so many people are hypocrites and are so sex positive in their writing and in their attitudes and whatever. And they would absolutely cower at the sight of the Big Goon. They would not have the bravery to look it in the eye.

[PayPal Advertiser]

So, like, strap on their pith helmet and go in.

[Host 1]

Damn. Barbara Kingsolver, if you're listening, this is your.

[Host 2]

This is your moment.

[PayPal Advertiser]

It was Great that you got the Pulitzer, but can you face the big goon? Yeah.

[Host 2]

Wow.

[Host 1]

Wow, wow. Well, that was amazing. Should we do our final.

[Host 2]

Any final thoughts on prolonged divorce as a straight couple?

[PayPal Advertiser]

No, just rip the band aid off.

[Host 2]

Yeah, rip the band aid off.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Just do it. I'll just say I think it should be a four month process.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

Wow.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. I think if we're gonna do an arbitrary thing, I think from proposing your divorce to filing it, four months is reasonable.

[Host 1]

That's really reasonable.

[PayPal Advertiser]

And you can still be. It's a gay marriage if you can do it in four months. Anything after that, you're in a straight marriage.

[Host 2]

Wow.

[Host 1]

Wow.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

You heard it here.

[Host 2]

Straightest marriage. Brangelina.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

They're still going. Oh, I think still divorcing. I think they're still divorcing. Am I wrong?

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host 2]

It's like it's been years.

[Host 1]

I had no idea.

[Host 2]

And they are actually, if you think about it, sort of the archetypal straight American couple.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Of this generation.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I think, like, you don't have to, like, have everything settled after four months. Like, if you're like them and you own, like a wine thing, it's like.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Who gets the.

[PayPal Advertiser]

It's. That is like, that's difficult to manage.

[Host 2]

That's different paperwork.

[Host 1]

And that's the lawyer. Lawyers are figuring that out.

[PayPal Advertiser]

But, you know, you have to, like, settle that. We are gonna split up the rose.

[Designer Shoe Warehouse Advertiser]

Yes.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Performance. Yeah.

[Host 1]

They finalized December 2024.

[Host 2]

We're getting word that they finalized December 2024.

[Host 1]

We have once again spread misinformation and.

[Host 2]

December 2024. Huh.

[Host 1]

Huh. Still pretty recent.

[Host 2]

You know, the rose is not bad. Oh, I tried it recently. Anyway, let's do our final segment.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This podcast is sponsored by PayPal.

[Designer Shoe Warehouse Advertiser]

All right, readers, Katie's publicist, finalist, Kyle's. It's time to talk about one of the most iconic payment brands out there. That's right. It's PayPal. PayPal lets you do you. Meaning you can pay your own way with just a click.

[Bowen Yang]

Once you click the PayPal button, you can choose from a bunch of different ways to pay.

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You can pay later with PayPal at millions of online stores. If you choose Pay in four. You can split everyday purchases into four sites. Smaller payments, no interest, no fees.

[Bowen Yang]

I think we've all had those chaotic, unhinged purchases.

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[Bowen Yang]

Yes, please Pay in store, pay online Pay over time. Don't just pay PayPal Pay in 4 is subject to approval. Eligibility varies. Learn more at paypal.com payin PayPal debit card terms and limits apply. This card is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to a license by MasterCard International, Inc. Full [e-mail] rewardspal.

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[Host 2]

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[Host 1]

Okay Tori, our final segment is called Shout Outs and in this segment we pay homage to the Grand Strait tradition of the radio shout out. Shouting out to anything that we are enjoying. People, places, things I ideas. Imagine it's 2001. You're at TRL shouting out to your squad back home.

[Host 2]

And we have to think, we have to think about it on the spot. Which is why I have my thinking face on here's.

[Host 1]

Okay, I have one, I have one.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

What's up freaks, losers and perverts around the globe. I want to give a shout out to listening to different music in different locations and having it hit different. I, you know, this is sort of a basic concept, but sometimes, you know, as I've been living in Los Angeles, some music I'm like seeing it make sense more. And some music I've been like, I know this is good and I know that I like this, but it's not hitting as hard as I want. Today I was walking through New York City and I was taking the subway and I said, it's time to put on OK loo. And guess what? It was hitting harder than it's hit ever before in my whole life. I already liked it, but this time I was like, damn, the subway's like I'm underwater. Like I was in heaven. I felt cool. I felt like, you know, this used to be my life and you know, I one day hope to be cool again. But that is neither here nor there. But it is on the subway listening to ok Lou. New York City. I love you. Xoxo Sam.

[Host 2]

Woo. Wait, I need to tell you my version of this. So my dad's favorite musical artist when I was growing up was Sade. Now Sade famously is like sexy music. And I think I will finally be liberated when I can recontextualize Sade as something sexy rather than something that reminds me of my father.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I mean, I find myself like, and.

[Host 2]

I can't like, I, I, it's, You'll get there. Yeah.

[Host 1]

You just need new context.

[Host 2]

I need new, I need Smokey. I need, Honestly, Discord gooning.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

But for Sade.

[Host 1]

Pop the headphones in. Yeah, I've. I'm finding myself listening to Haim constantly in LA because I'm like, well, this is all gonna make sense.

[PayPal Advertiser]

That does make sense. In la.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

It's like sort of sunny.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And today I was like, should I put on Heim? And I was like, why would I.

[Host 2]

Not in New York?

[Host 1]

It's cold. It doesn't make any sense.

[Host 2]

No. Okay. What's up fashionistas? I want to give a shout out to the brand Merrell. The shoe brand Merrell. It is so difficult right now to shop for shoes because of the sort of constant TikTok semi ironic reappropriation of every floating signifier. That constantly exists. It is impossible, possible to know whether something you are wearing signifies that you are basic, that you are young, that you are old, that you're all trying to be young, that you are trying to be hype, beasty. And there is something about Merrell brand shoes that almost transcends that. I think it has been appropriate and reappropriated so many times that you can. They can basically be whatever you want them to be, and you sort of can get away with wearing them, and they just, like, accommodate you the rest of your style. And so. So I am. This is the Merrell pledge. I am buying a pair of Merrells in the next calendar month. And that's gonna be my new look. It's gonna be my Kamala blazer.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Is.

[Host 2]

I'm gonna wear Merrell's. And I just wanna thank them for everything they've contributed to. Both straight, queer, gay, all cultures, because they have something for.

[Host 1]

Lily was wearing them last night.

[Host 2]

Lily was wearing them last night. And so shout out to Merrill. I don't know if they are an ethical company, but I will do my research after this. Yeah, that's my beautiful Tori. Whenever you're ready.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Okay. I want to shout out to nautical decorations.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I was in a. I went with a bunch of gay people to a restaurant that was. I was staring at it the whole time. I was like, what is this restaurant? Why does it look this way? Like, I couldn't name it because I was with gay people, so it didn't occur to me I could be in a nautical restaurant. Like, they were throwing off what the restaurant was. And then finally I went to the. To the bathroom by myself. And I was in the bathroom, and there was, like, rope trim on, like, a. Like, everything was navy blue and white, you know, And I was like, oh, maybe it's chic. I don't know. And then. And then. I don't know what chic is oftentimes, anyway, it's not a go.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I was like, is this. Maybe it's kind of Frenchy, you know, like. Or maybe that's true. Could be. So, yeah, I was in the bathroom, and, like, it was like, there was rope trim, picture of a sailboat. And all of a sudden, I was like. I was like, probably in the bathroom. I was like, it's a yacht club. You know, like, alone. But I was like. I realized, like, that's what this theme was. And. And. And the whole lunch was just reach. It was changed. I was like, this. This. The feel of this lunch that I thought was like in a. In a, like a cool New York restaurant. No, I've just been dining at the yacht club and everything was different and it was because I became aware of the nautical motif.

[Host 1]

Wow, that is so powerful.

[Host 2]

Do you think nautical.

[Host 1]

I love nautical.

[Host 2]

Will come back like, yes, 100%. Like in the way that people fetishize cowboy workwear, all that stuff. Like, will we get to a sailor moment?

[Host 1]

Nautical is incoming. I also think we all have this thing where our parents bathrooms had like a seashore theme and it's like hack. But now we're like almost at a place where we're like, well, I'm. My parents age, like, maybe I want to find my way into the sea.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah. Is it time for some shells around the mirror? Yeah.

[Host 1]

I think there's something where you're like, well, I'll do it, but it'll be like semi ironic and I'll find a way to play with it.

[PayPal Advertiser]

But the thing is it immediately becomes like. That just becomes like your thing. Like in Florida. When I'm in Florida, I am excited to see like manatee themed.

[Host 2]

Totally.

[PayPal Advertiser]

When I go to like not in a sort of iron and also like crocodile.

[Host 2]

Alligator stuff.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1]

I'm like in Maine when I see those damn buoys everywhere, I'm like, perfect.

[PayPal Advertiser]

You're like, yeah, I'm in Maine.

[Host 1]

I'm like, in fact, I'm bringing my home.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

All I want is a damn Maine buoy.

[Host 2]

Tori, this has been an absolute delight.

[PayPal Advertiser]

It's been a pleasure for me.

[Host 1]

Thanks so much for doing it.

[Host 2]

Thank you so much for doing it. Please purchase the book stag dance on bookshop.org and not Amazon. That's right, I said it.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Wow.

[Host 1]

Making a political statement.

[Host 2]

Making a political statement or Amazon, you know, or whatever. I have no moral backbone. And if you're in the uk, you know, look, look. Where are you going to be?

[PayPal Advertiser]

I'm going to be. It's going to be like eight stops in the uk. UK and then including West Kirby. I don't know. That is probably the most obscure but apparently it's a nice place outside of Liverpool. Doing event in Brighton with Sean Fay, who probably your listeners know of Sean Fay. And then I'm doing also Sydney Literary Festival, Auckland Literary Festival and Melbourne Literary Festival. So I'm doing.

[Host 2]

We actually do have a lot of Australian listeners.

[Host 1]

That's true.

[PayPal Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Australia. Australians love alt gay comedy.

[Host 1]

Yeah, they actually kind of do. It's confusing.

[PayPal Advertiser]

This is perfect then because I've been sort of remiss in promoting those things.

[Host 2]

Oh, yeah, no. If you're an Australian listener, please, please look that up.

[PayPal Advertiser]

I'll be there.

[Host 2]

Amazing.

[Host 1]

Wow. Well, bye. Podcast ends now.

[Host 2]

Want more? Subscribe to our Patreon for two extra episodes a month. Discord Access and more by heading to patreon.com stream and for all our visual.

[Host 1]

Learners, Free full length video episodes are available on our YouTube.

[Host 2]

Now get back to work.

[Host 1]

Stradiolab is a Production by Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network and iHeart Podcasts.

[Host 2]

Created and hosted by George Severis and.

[Host 1]

Sam Taggart executive produced by Will Ferrell Hansani and Olivia Aguilar co produced by Bay Wang Edited and engineered by Adam.

[Host 2]

Avalos Artwork by Michael Fails and Matt.

[Host 1]

Grubb Theme music by Ben Kling Foreign.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This podcast is sponsored by PayPal.

[Designer Shoe Warehouse Advertiser]

All right, readers, Katie's Publicist finalist Kyle's it's time to talk about one of the most iconic payment brands out there. That's right, it's PayPal. PayPal lets you do you meaning you can pay your own way.

[Bowen Yang]

PayPal offers people flexibility on how they can pay. Once you click the PayPal button, you can choo a bunch of payment options.

[Designer Shoe Warehouse Advertiser]

Including paying later with PayPal at millions of online stores.

[Bowen Yang]

Iconic Pay in store, Pay online Pay over time, don't just pay PayPal.

[Designer Shoe Warehouse Advertiser]

Learn [e-mail] Are you still quoting 30 year old movies?

[Ryan Seacrest]

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