"Tote Bags" w/ Doreen St. Félix

Summary

Episode Summary: StraightioLab – "Tote Bags" Featuring Doreen St. Félix

StraightioLab, an intellectual podcast hosted by smart comedians George Severis and Sam Taggart, delves into the intricacies of straight culture with humor and critical insight. In the April 15, 2025 episode titled "Tote Bags," the hosts are joined by guest Doreen San Félix to explore the cultural significance of tote bags and their role as symbols within societal norms. This summary captures the key discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn during the episode.

---

1. Introduction and Live Event Announcement (00:19 - 00:55)

The episode kicks off with Sam Taggart announcing an upcoming live edition of StraightioLab called "Lesbio Lab," scheduled for April 16 at the Bell House in New York City. This special edition will focus on lesbian topics, featuring guests Sydney Washington, Andrea Longshu, and Natalie Rotter Laitman.

Notable Quote:

"Wow, I could tear up hearing you say those words."
— George Severis (00:55)

2. Reflecting on Time and Societal Change (01:00 - 04:18)

George and Sam engage in a light-hearted yet introspective conversation about the passage of time, particularly focusing on the milestone of turning 30. Sam introduces his theory equating America’s societal shifts since 2016 with individually turning 30, suggesting that both signify a period of transition and uncertainty.

Notable Quote:

"Ever since literally the day I turned 30, I have had seemingly one health issue after the next."
— Sam Taggart (01:52)

3. Identity and Pronunciation: The Case of "San Felix" (06:02 - 07:53)

The discussion shifts to the pronunciation of Doreen's last name, oscillating between "Saint Felix" and "San Felix." Doreen shares her experiences of navigating cultural identity, especially the tension between Anglicizing her name for ease and reclaiming her ancestral heritage.

Notable Quote:

"Some days I'm like, yeah, you could say it the English way. I don't care. And then other days, I'm like, I majored in African American studies."
— Doreen San Félix (06:26)

4. Regional Trends and Cultural Significance (08:25 - 09:28)

The trio debates the concept of regional trends, particularly questioning why regions like the Midwest and New Jersey trend in cultural discourse. They reference artists like Bon Iver and discuss whether cities like Chicago truly belong to the Midwest, highlighting the fluidity and ambiguity in cultural categorization.

Notable Quote:

"The Midwest was trending because of Chapel."
— Sam Taggart (08:25)

5. The Evolution of Sobriety Culture (13:00 - 15:18)

Doreen introduces a critical examination of the evolving sobriety culture, transitioning from traditional paths like Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) to modern interpretations such as "Cali sober." The conversation highlights the commodification of sobriety, where it becomes a lifestyle choice detached from its roots in addiction recovery.

Notable Quote:

"The first round of people are actual recovering alcoholics who are the, let's say, target market."
— George Severis (16:26)

6. Gendered Dimensions of Sobriety and Mocktail Culture (14:24 - 15:18)

Expanding on sobriety, the hosts explore its gendered aspects. The feminine side is associated with mocktail culture—elaborate non-alcoholic beverages priced exorbitantly—while the masculine side ties to fitness and health-focused sobriety narratives. This duality underscores societal expectations and the commodification of personal choices.

Notable Quote:

"The feminine part of that is like mocktail culture."
— George Severis (14:36)

7. Introducing the "Soft Life" Movement (35:48 - 37:23)

Doreen discusses the "soft life" movement, particularly within the black middle-class community. This movement represents a conscious choice to disengage from societal pressures and political activism, opting instead for personal well-being and tranquility. It serves as a response to the overwhelming demands placed on black women to be both activists and caretakers.

Notable Quote:

"Soft life means, like, I'm not gonna have political opinions because you don't listen to me. I'm just gonna go to Miami."
— Doreen San Félix (35:48)

8. Social Media: Balancing Substance and Content (24:17 - 27:14)

The hosts propose a concept called the "Substance Ratio," advocating for a balanced approach to social media content. George suggests a 60% substance to 40% non-substance ratio to maintain authenticity and resist the pressures of algorithm-driven content creation.

Notable Quote:

"If you pass it in the no substance direction, you're thrown off of Instagram."
— George Severis (24:20)

9. Straight Shooters: Rapid-Fire Segment (21:21 - 23:07)

In the "Straight Shooters" segment, Doreen participates in rapid-fire "this one or that" questions, revealing her preferences and subtly critiquing straight culture stereotypes. This segment highlights the trivial yet telling choices that reflect deeper cultural norms.

Notable Quote:

"But not for the reason you think. Sorry, I'm gonna keep doing this."
— Doreen San Félix (22:04)

10. The Tote Bag: A Deep Dive into Symbolism (27:21 - 43:50)

The core of the episode revolves around the New Yorker tote bag as a straight culture symbol. Doreen articulates how carrying an empty or patterned tote bag serves as a status symbol rather than a functional accessory. The hosts discuss the romanticization of bags, comparing them to sex in their ability to signify personal identity and societal status.

Notable Quotes:

"So when people carry a particular tote bag from a particular magazine, per se. And there's nothing in it. To me, I'm like, that's like. That's like the straightness in it, right?"
— Doreen San Félix (28:40)

"Bags are sex."
— George Severis (31:21)

11. Shout Outs: Celebrating Cultural Works (68:07 - 75:58)

In the final segment, the hosts and Doreen give shout-outs to books and cultural works they appreciate. Sam recommends the book "Rejection," praising its cynical humor and reflection of internet culture. George lauds Sarah Wynn Williams' audiobook "Careless People" for its humorous yet critical take on Facebook’s internal dynamics. Doreen praises Todd Haynes' rendition of "Mildred Pierce" for its emotional honesty and reimagined portrayal of motherhood.

Notable Quotes:

"Shout out to Sarah Wynn Williams. I highly recommend the audiobook because she does read it herself."
— George Severis (70:16)

"I just would encourage everyone to watch or rewatch Todd Haynes. Mildred Pierce."
— Doreen San Félix (73:45)

12. Conclusion: Reflecting on the Episode (75:58 - End)

The episode wraps up with the hosts expressing their appreciation for Doreen’s insights and the depth of the conversation. They encourage listeners to engage with the topics discussed and to explore the cultural works mentioned during the shout-outs.

---

Overall Insights and Conclusions:

• Symbolism of Everyday Items: The New Yorker tote bag transcends its function, becoming a symbol of status and identity within straight culture. Its role reflects broader societal trends where objects are used to signal belonging or asp

• Commodification of Lifestyle Choices: Sobriety and movements like "soft life" illustrate how personal choices are increasingly commodified, turning into marketable lifestyles detached from their original intents.

• Cultural and Regional Fluidity: Discussions around regional trends highlight the ambiguity in cultural categorizations and the fluid nature of cultural identities.

• Social Media’s Influence: The proposed "Substance Ratio" underscores the tension between meaningful content and algorithm-driven frivolity, advocating for a balance to maintain authenticity.

• Intersection of Personal and Societal: Through rapid-fire questions and deep dives, the episode emphasizes how personal preferences and societal norms intersect, shaping individual identities within larger cultural frameworks.

The hosts and Doreen San Félix adeptly navigate complex topics, blending humor with critical analysis to provide listeners with a multifaceted understanding of straight culture and its symbols. This episode serves as both an entertaining and thought-provoking exploration of how everyday items like tote bags embody deeper cultural significances.

Transcript

[George Severis]

Foreign.

[Sam Taggart]

Hey, everybody, it's Sam here with a quick little announcement, and that is that we are doing Studio Lab live back in New York City on Wednesday, April 16 at the Bell House. Couldn't be more excited. It's a special edition. It's. We're calling it Lesbio Lab, and we're discussing lesbian topics with some of our incredible guests, including Sydney Washington, Andrea Longshu and Natalie Rotter Laitman. So the lineup's to die for. I haven't been back in New York in a few months, and I cannot wait. So please get tickets. They're in our bios, and we would love to see you there. Bye. Podcast starts now.

[George Severis]

Wow, I could tear up hearing you say those words.

[Sam Taggart]

I mean, can you believe it? Live from New York City.

[George Severis]

Even for anyone who doesn't know, I mean, people don't realize because it comes out once a week. People don't know that we haven't been together in studio in, like, four months at this point.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, when were you in la?

[George Severis]

Don't fact check me. It's been a while.

[Sam Taggart]

I'm sorry to debunk you.

[George Severis]

Okay. We were in LA together in February. It's now April. That's what, five months? Close, Close. That's almost five months. If you round up, that's five months.

[Sam Taggart]

Think about how long that is.

[George Severis]

Multiple of five.

[Sam Taggart]

No, but it does feel different. Cause when we were there, we're still like. We're not, like, home.

[George Severis]

I'll be the first to say it. These days, one month feels like a.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, my gosh, what was going on? But to be fair, that's true.

[George Severis]

No, it actually is true.

[Sam Taggart]

I'm literally like, what is going on at all times.

[George Severis]

I know. Can we. We have to debut your big theory about turning 30 versus 2016 on the main feed.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay, Is this the time for.

[George Severis]

This is the time. Okay, go.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay. Ever since literally the day I turned 30, I have had seemingly one health issue after the next. And that has been five years of consistently, like, being like, okay, well, this is gonna be my year. Something horrible. And then that's like how in 2016, when Trump was elected, you're like, okay, this is the worst thing that's ever gonna happen. And then horrible things kept happening after that in a way that you're like, I'm actually just at the beginning of a free fall, and I don't know where I'm gonna land.

[George Severis]

This is one of your most genius theories, that 2016 is when America turned 30.

[Sam Taggart]

And it was also one of those things where I didn't wanna believe it because I don't wanna be one of those people that's like, oh, blerg. I'm 30 and my back hurts.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Like the American populace during the pussy march or Women's march.

[Sam Taggart]

Pussy march.

[George Severis]

Sorry, I should not have said. I just thought. Pussy hat.

[Sam Taggart]

I get.

[George Severis]

But don't you think the. Sorry. Not to be anti woman.

[Sam Taggart]

No, no.

[George Severis]

The women's march was America collectively being like, blerg.

[Sam Taggart]

It was a blurg. And it was like, I was there and I was 30 now, and now. And then it just kept. And now they're like, fuck, I'm 30 now.

[George Severis]

Like, it's like, yeah, yeah, totally.

[Sam Taggart]

They. They just keep. The suffering keeps happening, and I don't know where we're gonna land 40. But do you come out like. I do have a fantasy that 30 is like a transitional.

[George Severis]

I completely agree.

[Sam Taggart]

Where you're losing your youth, but then.

[George Severis]

You do settle, I think 40s, as I've always said. One time I read an Amy Poehler quote that I think was fake and AI generated, but it really stuck with me.

[Sam Taggart]

You have to take away the authenticity from the meaning it gave you.

[George Severis]

It's sort of like it's spiritually true to me, and I've brought it up many times on this podcast.

[Sam Taggart]

If you felt it, it's true.

[George Severis]

So she said, your 20s are for figuring out what you're not. Your 30s are figuring out what you are. And then in your 40s, you say, this is who I am.

[Sam Taggart]

Well.

[George Severis]

And so I think that America will hit 40 soon. Hopefully. You have to hope it'll be a kind of Judd apatow, this is 40 moment. That'll be nice for the United States of A. And then afterwards, we'll hit a level of maturity based on the time that.

[Sam Taggart]

It'S taken for us to turn 30. I don't know if we'll be alive.

[George Severis]

Yeah, no, it definitely will be hundreds of years.

[Sam Taggart]

Unfortunately, we won't be alive anymore.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

But that's too bad. That's okay.

[George Severis]

Our children will be alive. We're probably not going to have kids again.

[Sam Taggart]

Come on.

[George Severis]

You know what's funny?

[Sam Taggart]

Our nieces and nephews will be alive.

[George Severis]

Oh, my God, that's true. Our niece and nephews will be absolutely stunning.

[Sam Taggart]

They'll be 80.

[George Severis]

Yeah. They'll be 80.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Do you think our nieces and nephews will, like, make a difference? Sure. I was thinking about this recently. I was like, actually with my niece yesterday, and I was like, what are your politics gonna be when you grow up? There's no way to know.

[Sam Taggart]

There's no way to know. You can guess a little bit based on socioeconomic background.

[George Severis]

Right. She is a white girl growing up in Brooklyn. That could go either way. What if she's part of the downtown scene?

[Sam Taggart]

You mean she's the new.

[George Severis]

What if she's the new alt?

[Sam Taggart]

Right? Well, you would have to almost respect that then.

[George Severis]

Totally. No, I would definitely be support.

[Sam Taggart]

If she was the new Dasha. I'd be like, damn, she's kind of cool.

[George Severis]

Cause I also, at that point, I would be so old that I wouldn't really know the ins and outs of the debates. I would just be like, she has a podcast. That's fun.

[Sam Taggart]

It's easier for me to think to fantasize about what their politics will be than it is for me to fantasize about what their view of our politics will be.

[George Severis]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

That's what really scares me, is them being like, oh, you actually believe in this?

[George Severis]

You know what they're gonna think about us? It's like when we watch a documentary about gay New York in the 80s and then there's some old guy that's still wearing a leather choker. That's gonna be us.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. It's gonna hurt.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

But that's okay. This is okay. I have two things I wanna talk about.

[George Severis]

Okay. But we have to bring in our guest.

[Sam Taggart]

Yes. Please do the honor.

[George Severis]

You know what? Actually, I'm about to get ready for this. I'm about to do something so humiliating.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh.

[George Severis]

Which is that I forgot to ask before the pod if it's St. Felix or St. Felix? Because I've heard both. Is it one or two?

[Doreen San Felix]

It's the second one.

[George Severis]

It's the second.

[Doreen San Felix]

And I knew you were gonna bring that up.

[George Severis]

Okay, so I. Cause I have said for years, I've said Saint Felix, and then. Sorry, but your boss, David Remnick on air said, san Felix. And I said, is this man saying, please welcome Doreen San Felix.

[Doreen San Felix]

Hello, George San Jose.

[Sam Taggart]

Hi.

[George Severis]

What's up? Wait, so you knew I was gonna bring it up?

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Okay.

[Doreen San Felix]

Because here's the thing. You have a French last name. I have it through slavery, of course, and colonization. And it's like you're in America, so you Anglicize it all the time to make it easier for people. And then you go to college and you learn you're supposed to reclaim your ancestry, but it's, like, too late to get people to start pronouncing your name the right way. So for me, it's like, some days I'm like, yeah, you could say it the English way. I don't care. And then other days, I'm like, I majored in African American studies.

[George Severis]

Oh, interesting.

[Sam Taggart]

You know, that's interesting.

[George Severis]

You never know which one you're gonna get. How militant is she gonna be today?

[Doreen San Felix]

Is she a liberal today?

[Sam Taggart]

That's fun.

[George Severis]

She's bringing a center left energy.

[Sam Taggart]

This is happening, I have noticed, with Rihanna, where people are like, well, actually it's Rihanna, but then it happened. But actually, everyone's called her Rihanna forever. But now there's like this back and forth where now there's no way to say it right. Because everyone's like, mad at the other.

[Doreen San Felix]

Half because Rihanna sounds like the woke way to pronounce it. You're like soft a.

[George Severis]

Yes, you're right. Rihanna sounds Midwestern.

[Doreen San Felix]

Exactly.

[George Severis]

Rihanna sounds Midwest.

[Doreen San Felix]

And then you do Rhiannon in your head, and then you're thinking about Fleetwood Mac.

[George Severis]

Don't go down that road.

[Sam Taggart]

I find that interesting. I was gonna say, okay, now, okay.

[George Severis]

You have two things to say. Well, and now Doreen is part of.

[Sam Taggart]

This, and you're part of this. And that adds more pressure to it because they were sort of intro bits in my mind where they're not very good. Let's start there. Okay, great one. I guess I just want to come off and say I'm being targeted and my phone is dying so fast. As of yesterday, I have left the hotel room and I'm at 50%.

[Doreen San Felix]

What?

[Sam Taggart]

How long?

[George Severis]

They do. That's what they do. And now with the tariffs, your next phone's going to cost approximately $5,000. So get ready, bitch.

[Sam Taggart]

I'm scared. Okay, the next topic is. I think I thought the Midwest trending thing was gonna be over. I thought that was sort of.

[George Severis]

The Midwest was trending.

[Sam Taggart]

The Midwest was trending because of Chapel.

[Doreen San Felix]

Okay.

[Sam Taggart]

Because Chapel.

[George Severis]

I don't know if they wrote about that in the New Yorker, but the Midwest was trending.

[Sam Taggart]

The Midwest was trending.

[Doreen San Felix]

And.

[George Severis]

And before that, Ireland was trending.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Which is another thing.

[Doreen San Felix]

I can really speak on that.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. But now I feel like with Bon Iver having a new album, I actually think the Midwest is continuing to trend.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

And in a way where I'm like, wait, is this ever gonna, like, I'm, like, confused by the Midwest trending, and I don't know how to interact with it.

[George Severis]

Doreen, what do you think?

[Doreen San Felix]

What do I think about the Midwest trending? Well, it's fascinating because there's still so much, I think, debate about where the Midwest Begins and where it ends. Right. And then there's certain people, like Chappell or Bon Iver, who are like the saints of that idea. But it's like the Chicago question.

[George Severis]

Yes, the Chicago question.

[Doreen San Felix]

Is Chicago Midwest or not? I think. But I would so much rather debate this than like, the coastal wars, you know, that was very, like, Obama era.

[George Severis]

Yes, right. You're absolutely right. Obama era was New York vs LA, and Trump era is the Midwest. Chicago. Like, that is the extent.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, that's a really good point, because the Midwest trending is like a town in Minnesota. Like the idea of riding a four wheeler on a farm.

[Doreen San Felix]

Exactly.

[Sam Taggart]

In a thermal whatever.

[Doreen San Felix]

Rosen Island.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

For me, growing up, that's what I thought the Midwest was.

[George Severis]

You grew up in New York, right?

[Doreen San Felix]

I did. I grew up in Brooklyn and South Brooklyn.

[George Severis]

Are you starstruck?

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

I'm like, so. So what are your politics now? You're my case study.

[Doreen San Felix]

Black Dasha.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

You're Black Dasha Blasha.

[Sam Taggart]

Wow. I don't know why that hit me. Okay, you know what's happening?

[George Severis]

Yeah, go.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay. So I remember I moved around a lot as a kid, and I remember, like, when I moved to Virginia, so my dad had gone to Duke, and so he had Duke gear. And so when we moved to Virginia, that's, like, much closer to North Carolina.

[George Severis]

Obviously, don't bring up White Lotus Challenge.

[Sam Taggart]

But I saw people in Duke Merch and I was like, oh, my God, you know what Duke is? No one in Michigan or Indiana knew what. They knew what it was, but they didn't talk about it ever. And so then there's something happening here where I'm like, wait, you're from Brooklyn? And I'm like, right, I'm back. I'm in New York.

[George Severis]

You still live in Bushwick?

[Sam Taggart]

You still live in Bushwick?

[Doreen San Felix]

I know that place for, like, a long time.

[Sam Taggart]

Like, it was a big part of my identity.

[George Severis]

Oh, my gosh.

[Sam Taggart]

So I'm sort of realizing that in real time. Yeah, yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

But, you know, I don't identify with the native New Yorker mythology.

[Sam Taggart]

Really?

[George Severis]

Thing.

[Sam Taggart]

Really talk about that.

[Doreen San Felix]

Well, because I grew up past the last stop on the L train, so I went to Manhattan maybe, like, every eight months. It was just not a part of my world at all. Yeah, I kind. I feel like I grew up, like, in a strip mall suburb. That's what that part of Brooklyn is like.

[Sam Taggart]

Sure. Like Weird Long Island.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah, it's like Weird Long Island. Like, there was this really big park where the Mafia was like, just sort of like, Ending its reign when I was a kid.

[George Severis]

And it's like, because you were born.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. They were like, we can't kill anymore.

[Sam Taggart]

I want to be good.

[Doreen San Felix]

But it was this interesting time where, like, white flight was causing, like, a huge part of the population to leave. And then all these, like, black and also South Asian families were moving into Brooklyn and kind of, like, reshaping the space, like, the literal space and their identity.

[George Severis]

And so there was more local culture rather than, like, New York, rather than.

[Doreen San Felix]

Live from New York.

[George Severis]

It's Saturday night.

[Doreen San Felix]

Exactly. It's like New York felt as, like, New York City felt as far to me as it might have felt to you.

[George Severis]

Sure. Interesting.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

I mean, that is true. There was a very brief period in my life, as everyone knows where I live in the New Jersey suburbs, of course. And I was, technically speaking, like, 45 minutes from the city, but it was not something I considered home by any means. Despite my cosmopolitan sort of vibe.

[Doreen San Felix]

Do you think New Jersey will be trending next?

[George Severis]

This isn't. I actually don't. Because I think New Jersey.

[Sam Taggart]

I think it trended in, like, 2008.

[George Severis]

I think there was a.

[Sam Taggart]

There was the indie rock. The indie rock.

[George Severis]

And also before that, Bruce Springsteen. I think Bruce Springsteen trended too hard at his peak. And I think, like, I also think there was something around Jersey Shore, Teresa Giudice, like, all these sort of, like, trashy New Jersey legends that actually became so big that it made people uncomfortable. Like, I don't think people like thinking about Snooki right now, whereas they do like. Like, people do like, thinking about, like, you know, Tiffany Pollard or, like, what are other sort of, like, reality icons of that era. Like, people like, thinking about America's Next Top Model, thinking about the real world, like, whatever. But I don't think. I think the Jersey Shore era is. People think of it as a dark era for America.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. But that changes so quickly. The fact that it is loaded means it's coming back soon.

[George Severis]

So maybe it'll come back in, like, the2030s.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, it is like, if we're doing Y2K just around the corner.

[Doreen San Felix]

And also, a lot of these figures are, you know, like, the situation, for example, who I tend to keep up with. Oh, he's sober now. And I feel like that fits into the whole, like, sober fascism thing that's happening with people around. Well, people are just so intense about being sober. Oh, and it's a morality thing now.

[Sam Taggart]

I haven't heard it, like, quit so plainly.

[Doreen San Felix]

I think I put it pretty offensively.

[Sam Taggart]

I Guess. I mean, bluntly. Yeah. Because, yeah, I have. I've picked up on this on the Internet where it's like a sober culture is hard right now.

[Doreen San Felix]

Well, there were steps. First was Cali sober, which was that you didn't drink alcohol, but you did every other drug known to man.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

And now people are becoming addicted to sobriety, I think, and it's like becoming the entirety of their identity.

[George Severis]

Don't you think there's also like a. To bring it to a straight or lapse space, gendered dynamic of, like, the feminine. To be very essentialist. The feminine part of that is like mocktail culture.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yes.

[George Severis]

And like, mocktails being $17, and it's like celery, shrub and seltzer or whatever. And then the masculine side is like, Huberman. Was that his name? The podcast. The, like, Stanford podcast. Health guy.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, God, you guys are my only podcast.

[George Severis]

I don't know any of the basically, like, people that are like, almost like manosphere level. Like, workout, take care of your body. Raw meats. No. Seed oils, Solar anus.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yes.

[George Severis]

So those are the two. And I guess both of those are eclipsing the previous notion of sobriety, which was like, AA sobriety.

[Doreen San Felix]

Right?

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

It's almost like being an alcoholic is beside the point when sobriety is a fascist lifestyle choice.

[Doreen San Felix]

That's such. That's exactly what the pivot is.

[George Severis]

Because it's no longer part of an addiction narrative.

[Doreen San Felix]

Right.

[Sam Taggart]

Whoa.

[Doreen San Felix]

Like, for so many people, it's not necessarily that they had to overcome a dependency on alcohol. They probably are not alcoholics. You do have to reach a standard.

[Sam Taggart]

Standard.

[George Severis]

Call them out.

[Doreen San Felix]

You do have to reach a standard.

[Sam Taggart]

I'm getting tired of these fake alcohol.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah, you gotta earn it. You know what I mean?

[Sam Taggart]

No, I know what you mean.

[George Severis]

And you know what the difference. Okay, so first of all, it's good that people are sober. Good for them. But there's also another dark element to all this, which is like, sobriety became commodified. So when something becomes commodified, you need more and more people to engage in it. The first round of people are actual recovering alcoholics who are the, let's say, target market. There's only a limited amount of those. So then you're going to other people. And now you have to find as many people as possible. It's like how Facebook started targeting children and teens after they got all the. And people in countries, in countries outside America when they got America all hooked.

[Doreen San Felix]

Right.

[George Severis]

You have to keep expanding the market.

[Sam Taggart]

I was listening to this podcast with A fitness guy on it, which was random. And he got so uptight as soon as alcohol was mentioned, and he was being so chill generally. And then as soon as alcohol was brought up, he was like, I never touched that stuff. That stuff is horrible if you want to actually make games. And I was like, I hate this mindset. It's like, not everything has to be productive and perfection.

[Doreen San Felix]

And also, I mean, I guess the other side of it is this idea that, like, all of your productivity is in making your body better. That that's, like, an actual moral work that you're doing by avoiding any kind of vice. As if, you know, eating 800 calories a day and, like, hitting your protein macros isn't also a vice.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

And it's, like, really disturbing and upsetting to me. I feel like it's even affecting my social life where there are people, like, I want to spend a kind of, like, relaxed time with, but I can't because they're just, like, in this prison of optimization.

[Sam Taggart]

Totally.

[George Severis]

No, the prison of optimization is really real, and it goes beyond any kind of, like, alcohol or substance or anything. It's just, like, you have to accept that social life means sacrificing some part of your personal preferences for the group.

[Doreen San Felix]

Exactly.

[George Severis]

For anyone listening, we're now past talking about alcohol. I'm not implying people that don't drink need to suck it up and drink. Well.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, we're talking about, like, body. Cause I feel like in Gay World specifically, there's, like, that thing of, like, you, like, sexually, you hang out with people who are kind of your body type. But then there's this thing of, like, well, but I want to hang out with the people I get along with. And those two don't necessarily.

[George Severis]

Yeah, but they're on G. Yeah, I want to hang out with my friends, but they're on G. So it is the famous problem.

[Sam Taggart]

It's a really confusing issue.

[George Severis]

Yeah, no, it's very.

[Sam Taggart]

And they're sort of like, what are you. Like, why are you eating that?

[Doreen San Felix]

We're hanging out. Exactly.

[Sam Taggart]

And it's like this weird thing that is in the way.

[George Severis]

They're also. It's like, everyone has these friends where you're like, okay, time to hang out. Here we fucking go. Like, what is it gonna be this time? Like, oh, you're fasting this week because you have this thing. You're, like, not. You know, you're not avoiding the C train because you read your horoscope.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

It's weird. And also, it's such a. It's an in your 30s thing.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

Everyone's lost, right? I just turned 33. I mean, you really roasted us two weeks ago at that show. George. Is that.

[George Severis]

Oh, my God.

[Doreen San Felix]

That's right. That's right.

[George Severis]

Yes, yes, yes. Please, please.

[Doreen San Felix]

You can break the fourth wall and say that it's.

[George Severis]

We're the same age. So.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. Jesus year.

[George Severis]

Jesus year.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, do you guys do Jesus? Is that. Are you into that?

[George Severis]

I grew up with more religion than you did.

[Doreen San Felix]

Probably.

[Sam Taggart]

We didn't have very much religion.

[George Severis]

I mean, I'm always like, okay, here's my thing with religion. Because it was never. Religion was never traumatizing for me. Like, it was always so casual and just, like, part of our culture. Like, I'm going to church for Easter. But I, like, have not given any thought to what that means more broadly or, like, how I feel about Jesus. Like, it just is, like, that's nice. Not a. Not something. I never felt it, like, rub up against, like, being gay or, like, anything. Like, it was just very casual. So I always forget that for other people, religion was traumatic, and I'm very cavalier about it. How do you feel?

[Doreen San Felix]

That's interesting. There was a time in my life where, you know, I became a lapsed Catholic, which means I was, like, a staunch atheist.

[George Severis]

I was like Richard Dawkins level in college. But you have to go through that phase.

[Doreen San Felix]

You do, because you're just, like, rebelling as you do with anything else. And then after a while, I think I moved to a neighborhood with a lot of church ladies in it, and they would just wake up on Sunday looking so. Fabric fascinator on, you know, just, like, matching all together, like, walking really slow down the sidewalk. It was their Runway. And it's like, I'm okay with this.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

You know, the oppression, the repression. Not great.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

It's caused a lot of stress in my life, but I'm just like, we do our shit, you know? Like, we are obsessed with going to sailor on decab, like, four times a week.

[George Severis]

Totally.

[Doreen San Felix]

Just got to get that. I've actually only ever been there once, but you know what I'm referencing.

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Doreen San Felix]

So I'm just kind of like, people have their things at this point, and I'm willing to kind of have a more, like, micro vision of what it is that religion does for people as opposed to having the, like, haranguing. You know, this is.

[George Severis]

I feel the same bad for. Of course, then sometimes you're reminded. It's like, you can say that, and then you hear some story of someone who Is like, I don't know, sent to conversion therapy or something. And then you're like, oh, God. Right, right. Of course that's bad.

[Doreen San Felix]

You're like, that's the exception.

[Sam Taggart]

Religion is a lot like you. And that, of course anyone should use it. It's fun. But then it's like, it does radicalize people.

[George Severis]

2016 was America turning 30. A religion is a lot like YouTube. Should we do our first segment? Sorry.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah, let's do it.

[George Severis]

Our first segment is called straight shooters. And in this segment we ask you a series of rapid fire questions to gauge your familiarity with and complicity in straight culture. The one. It's just one thing or another thing and you have to choose one and you have to go with your gut. And the one rule is you can't ask any follow up questions about how the game works.

[Doreen San Felix]

Wow, this is very straight.

[George Severis]

Go.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay. Doreen Gustafelstein or Aquamarine?

[Doreen San Felix]

Aquamarine, Am I right?

[George Severis]

That was a follow up question. So we're deducting points. Doreen, I'm losing. Women in space or Numi Repace.

[Doreen San Felix]

Women in space.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay.

[Doreen San Felix]

But not for the reason you think. Sorry, I'm gonna keep doing this.

[Sam Taggart]

Lorde's big comeback or Orange is the new black.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, oh, oh. Orange is the new black.

[George Severis]

Shout out to Netflix. Russian dressing or American Express?

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, Russian dressing.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay. Being a New York Times bestseller or having committed crimes against a bank teller.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, oh. Having committed crimes against a bank teller.

[George Severis]

Starting a trade war or what was I made for?

[Doreen San Felix]

Ooh, what was I made for?

[Sam Taggart]

Okay. AI slop or gay guy flop?

[Doreen San Felix]

Ooh, gay guy flop.

[George Severis]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Military spending or Jupiter ascending?

[Doreen San Felix]

Jupiter ascending. Jupiter ascending.

[Sam Taggart]

Wow.

[George Severis]

Are you a Jupiter ascending Stan?

[Doreen San Felix]

I don't know.

[George Severis]

Was that the Wachowskis?

[Sam Taggart]

Yes. Okay, so are we doing our new grading system?

[George Severis]

Oh, okay. So, Doreen, to fill you in, for years, we rated guests from a scale of 0 to 1000 doves. Named after the Lady Gaga song 1000 Doves. But we recently decided what to do.

[Sam Taggart]

0 to 1000 blades of grass. Based on the Gaga song.

[George Severis]

Based on the Gaga song Blades of grass. Okay, we can do our new ranking.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, then I'm gonna go ahead and say 862 blades of grass.

[George Severis]

I agree.

[Sam Taggart]

Wow. Good job.

[Doreen San Felix]

Thank you.

[George Severis]

That's a really high score.

[Sam Taggart]

That's a really good score. I felt like there was a sense of wonder, a sense of play. I liked the confusion. That felt nice.

[George Severis]

You had a charisma and an on camera sort of charm that I think.

[Doreen San Felix]

Many people don't it's funny because I have such anxiety about being on camera. Really, the whole point of being a writer is that you don't have to be seen. I don't want to be seen. You know how people want to be seen that movie.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, I wish I didn't want to be seen. All I want is to be seen. Sometimes I have to remember to put substance behind it.

[George Severis]

Totally. No, it's. I have to put a little note in my phone. Add substance. Don't forget, add substance.

[Sam Taggart]

Add substance. Have something else.

[George Severis]

I have a new idea. Uh, oh, okay. Get ready. This is a new concept that I'm inventing.

[Doreen San Felix]

I'm not ready. Also, I just want to say, okay.

[George Severis]

So obviously the dream is for everything you do to have substance in today's fast paced media ecosystem. That's not sustainable. Right. Let's say you're an LGBTQ creator. You're gonna have some things that are your body of work and some things that are like Instagram reels, promo, whatever. We need to come up with a ratio that's like. This is the ratio of substance to not substance that is allowed. And if you pass it in the no substance direction, you're thrown off of Instagram.

[Sam Taggart]

Wow. You're at least like, you're. You have like a two week band.

[George Severis]

Yes. Yeah. Like, I think so.

[Sam Taggart]

Maybe it's like, ooh, okay, what is it but substance? Okay.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

I'm trying to think like in the comedy sphere. So this would be like a thing that is actually like comedic, has a point of view rather than saying not.

[George Severis]

Catering to the algorithm.

[Sam Taggart]

Not catering to the algorithm and not just like a picture. Or is it not that I can't tell what is more.

[George Severis]

I know what you mean.

[Sam Taggart]

Meaningful.

[George Severis]

Honestly, I'm even like, okay, let's say you're a. Is all digital content substanceless to begin with?

[Sam Taggart]

I think yes. I think anytime you're looking for fandom in the social media verse, which is what most people are doing now, it's substanceless. I think the only pure social media was when it was posting pics for your friends.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah, the washed out pics in 2020.

[George Severis]

Yes, totally.

[Sam Taggart]

Exactly.

[Doreen San Felix]

But are we being resistant to the state of things?

[George Severis]

Well, yes.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

Obviously we're being resisted.

[George Severis]

Of course. We're politically conservative.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

We are the resistance. Obviously we are the resistance.

[Sam Taggart]

We are in the pussy bar.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yes. Wait, I forgot my hat.

[George Severis]

Say more.

[Doreen San Felix]

I mean to say we are not like digital natives, right?

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

But if you're a 15 year old, imagine having this conversation. Yeah. They're like smart Luddites, whatever, who are like, the Internet is bad for you. But there are other people who don't have, like, a value system. Value system. Or they don't apply value to the Internet because it is what it is. It's a sky. It's everything to.

[George Severis]

We can't be technologically determinist.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay.

[George Severis]

We can't. We can't say all social media. It can't be based on the medium, I guess, is what you're saying.

[Doreen San Felix]

But we can say that if you do two sponsored posts in a row, I'm actually not gonna like the second post, because at that point, I need something.

[George Severis]

Also, if you're doing a sponsored post, that's not spreading positivity. That is doing ad copy.

[Sam Taggart]

If you're being like, please comment on my sponsored post. So it gets more engagement. So I get. I need 10%.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah, absolutely.

[George Severis]

Okay.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, glad that's covered.

[George Severis]

Maybe we should, as a blanket, say just like, 60, 40. 60. Substance. 40, not substance.

[Sam Taggart]

And we're still working on defining what.

[George Severis]

Is substance, and we're still working on it.

[Sam Taggart]

And what is not substance.

[George Severis]

Right. But it's the golden ratio. They call it 60, 40.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Okay.

[Sam Taggart]

I think that's great.

[George Severis]

Doreen.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yes.

[George Severis]

What is your straight topic, and what do you think is straight about it?

[Doreen San Felix]

Okay, my straight topic is the tote bag.

[George Severis]

Which one?

[Doreen San Felix]

Before I say which one?

[George Severis]

Okay. Okay.

[Doreen San Felix]

I do want to shout out Emilia Petrarca.

[George Severis]

Oh, yes, we love her Choprat.

[Doreen San Felix]

She's great. And she last year, wrote this. I think you could call it, like, a treatise against the Flaccid Tote bag.

[Sam Taggart]

Ooh, I'm scared.

[Doreen San Felix]

Think about it. You have a tote bag. It's on your shoulder. It should have things in it. Right? Like, the whole point of a tote bag is like, I can't wear my real bag right now. I'm also not gonna wear a backpack because I'm an adult. But I have a lot of things with me. I have my tampons, I have my wallet. I have a bottle of water. I have a chopped salad. All this stuff in my tote bag, and it signals life, Right?

[George Severis]

Ooh.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. So the point of the tote bag is not actually, to me, the surface of the tote bag is not what it says. It's about the fact that you're a person on the go. Like, you're a little harried. You're a messy bun person, and you just need to throw everything in the bag. Right?

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

And so when people carry a particular tote bag from a particular magazine, per se. And there's nothing in it. To me, I'm like, that's like. That's like the straightness in it, right?

[George Severis]

Yeah. Cause you're just signaling you're not using it as a bag. You're using it as a graphic tee.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, yeah.

[George Severis]

No, that. Yeah. And then it's. You know what it is the bag is wearing you. You're not wearing it.

[Doreen San Felix]

Exactly. And you're supposed to wear a bag.

[George Severis]

Totally.

[Doreen San Felix]

You know.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

People don't know this anymore. Are you guys ebay people?

[George Severis]

You know, here's the thing. Thank you for asking, first of all, and giving me the platform to answer. I want so badly to be an ebay person.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, my God. Not everyone can be.

[George Severis]

My biggest shame is how I've had some successes with vintage shopping. But I. It's not in me. Like, it stresses me out so much. I will make an amazing vintage purchase once a year, and it will be all I talk about for months.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

As you know.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Are you an ebay person? It's like the idea that I would find a perfect leather jacket on ebay, like, that seems to me more. Less likely on me becoming president.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, it's. Well, say I order it, it comes to my house, I put it on, it doesn't fit. Then what? Then I just have this jacket.

[Doreen San Felix]

No, then you return it. You gotta return it.

[George Severis]

You can return it. Not all ebay's, but this is a lifestyle, though. Like this. The lifestyle of constant ordering and returning.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Is like, to me, return. I bought. When I.

[Sam Taggart]

Sorry.

[George Severis]

Taped my special last week, I bought three shirts, none of which I ended up wearing. They are now in a bag and I have to return all three of them. And I can feel the clock ticking.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Honey, I am not making plans.

[Sam Taggart]

I'm gonna keep those shirts.

[Doreen San Felix]

But once you permit yourself to return things that you buy online, everything changes totally. Because. And that happened for me last year.

[Sam Taggart]

Wow.

[Doreen San Felix]

Just last year I had this moment where it's like, I'm actually gonna get my money back.

[Sam Taggart]

Wow.

[Doreen San Felix]

And I reclaimed my time. I reclaimed my power. It was amazing.

[George Severis]

That's so amazing.

[Doreen San Felix]

But the reason why I brought it up is because one thing I love doing. I'm actually not shopping right now because this is a problem. But I love getting, like, old bags on ebay. Because the thing about a bag is, like, you actually really want it to be worn. You want it to stretch, be elastic, to be kind of weathered.

[George Severis]

Like purse. Like a nice bag. Like an Hermes bag.

[Doreen San Felix]

An Hermes bag. Not yet. Maybe if this podcast goes well, then I can't wait. But that's. It just relates to what I'm thinking where I'm like, okay, you're just, like, wearing this tote bag. You're not actually using it because you're using it to signal something about, like, your liberalism and your politics. And you're forgetting the romance of the bag. Bags are so romantic. You know, it's like sex.

[George Severis]

A bag bags are sex.

[Sam Taggart]

Bags are sex.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. You know, you're like, ruffling through it. It has everything you want. You put it down, you pick it up. That's sex.

[George Severis]

Okay, so here's what.

[Sam Taggart]

You're dirty. There's something in there.

[Doreen San Felix]

Freud did a whole thing about.

[George Severis]

And do you know what plain bag is? It's someone who is, like a sex positivity influencer, but you can tell they don't have sex. It's someone who makes video front to camera videos that are like, okay, so choosing the right butt plug. And then you're like, have you ever had sex?

[Doreen San Felix]

No.

[Sam Taggart]

That's really tough. Yeah, I think. Okay. Another reason why a bag is sex.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

There's like the whole thing of, like, as a boy, you're like, I was taught as a child, don't look in a woman's bag.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yes.

[Sam Taggart]

And it's like, why?

[Doreen San Felix]

How did that make you feel?

[Sam Taggart]

Well, like, I want to have sex with that bag.

[George Severis]

Well, there is something. Even when you see a woman opening the bag and going. And you're like, oh, avert your eyes. It's kind of like.

[Doreen San Felix]

It's really erotic.

[George Severis]

It's very erotic. It's also. I won't. It's almost like breastfeeding.

[Doreen San Felix]

I was just gonna say that. I was just gonna say that because.

[George Severis]

Here'S the thing with breastfeeding. It's.

[Doreen San Felix]

Tell me what.

[George Severis]

The weird space between private and public.

[Doreen San Felix]

Right, right, right.

[George Severis]

Because of course you want to celebrate. Like, you do not ever want to. What's the word?

[Doreen San Felix]

Stigmatize it.

[George Severis]

Stigmatize it.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yes.

[George Severis]

But you're also not gonna be, like, taking a photo. Like, smile. Like taking a photo of a woman. So it's like this weird midway point where you're like, there are two. There are three options. Private, public, empowered. And it is empowered.

[Doreen San Felix]

One of the funnier empowered options, I think in the past, like, 15 years is the breastfeeding pod.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

It's so funny because it's like someone is walking in with their child and you're just like, yeah, girl. You're about to go Breastfeed. But I also can't see it.

[George Severis]

Yeah, totally. Exactly.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

It's so confusing.

[Sam Taggart]

That leans more towards shame. To me, it's sort of like I'm going to the bathroom but for breastfeeding.

[George Severis]

Well, it's not shame. It's quiet luxury.

[Sam Taggart]

Quiet luxury.

[George Severis]

It's like you see someone wearing a gorgeous look from the row SS21. And if you're a classy person, you're not gonna stop them on the street and say, is that the row? You're just gonna sort of give it an up and down and say, I see you.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yes, exactly.

[George Severis]

And that's how I feel about breastfeeding.

[Sam Taggart]

That's how I feel about breastfeeding.

[Doreen San Felix]

You know, I did the row.

[George Severis]

No, it is not as good quality as people say it is.

[Doreen San Felix]

It's not. And the prices that you are paying, shocking down payment prices.

[George Severis]

No, literally, you're like, where's klarna?

[Doreen San Felix]

Do I klarna my eggs or do I karna shoes from the roe? I went to a really fabulous vintage store downtown and there was a row frock, shapeless, which I like.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

I was like, let me try it on. It was affordable for the row. And I tried it on and I looked like. I looked like death. Like, I looked like, you know, depictions of death in.

[George Severis]

Sorry, I mean, death.

[Sam Taggart]

I know I keep being like, no.

[Doreen San Felix]

I would never say that. That's offensive. No, like, you know, depictions of death as like a black triangle just sort of like moving, like motionless, holding a.

[Sam Taggart]

What is called a spirit scythe.

[Doreen San Felix]

Scythe, Scythe, yeah. Yeah. It just. I don't know.

[Sam Taggart]

People pay a lot of money to look like death.

[Doreen San Felix]

To look like death.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, that's true.

[Doreen San Felix]

But maybe I'm just like kind of a basic, like femme girl. Like, I do like feeling like the clothes are like, you know, demanding that I show off my waist or whatever. Like all that stuff. I like that stuff.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. I find the row has always to me just implied like you just want to spend a lot of money on something.

[Doreen San Felix]

Right.

[George Severis]

It's sort of like you have a fetish for spending money. Literally more so than taste for a specific type of clothing.

[Doreen San Felix]

You're fondomming yourself and doming yourself.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

But you're like a good person. You're a good shopper.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

Because you're deciding to spend $3,000 on a sweater as opposed to accruing a lot of fast fashion. And there's never a third option that you might just like not spend money on yourself at all and not be a materialist well, there's almost something about.

[Sam Taggart]

The row being quiet luxury, where you're like, well, why so quiet? What are you ashamed of? What are you hiding?

[Doreen San Felix]

Totally soft life.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

Can we go there?

[George Severis]

Wait, what soft life?

[Doreen San Felix]

You guys know about soft life?

[George Severis]

What's soft life?

[Doreen San Felix]

I. I wonder if this is like a racialized thing, but in the past two years, I kept seeing posts and essays from people usually, like, black, like, middle class, like, well educated women who are like, I'm not doing a hard life anymore. I'm going to do soft life. So soft life means, like, I'm not gonna be. I'm not gonna have political opinions because you don't listen to me. I'm just gonna go to Miami.

[George Severis]

I feel humiliated. First of all, that. I've never heard about this.

[Doreen San Felix]

This is so interesting.

[Sam Taggart]

I've never heard about this.

[Doreen San Felix]

Maybe there's still a little segregation in the world.

[Sam Taggart]

That makes me happy.

[Doreen San Felix]

But, yeah, it's like, it's completely taken over. Some of the most industrious, exciting women I know are now in Miami.

[George Severis]

Yeah, now in Miami.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. I guess it's like the black version of trad wife culture. Whoa. Do you know what I mean?

[George Severis]

But it is also women.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yes.

[George Severis]

Or is it also men?

[Doreen San Felix]

No, it's.

[George Severis]

Are there gay guys?

[Doreen San Felix]

There are. There probably are, but I haven't found them. But it's like, singularly. It's about, like, the overworked black woman.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay.

[Doreen San Felix]

Deciding to say no.

[George Severis]

It is a response to, like, white people having signs that say, listen to black women.

[Doreen San Felix]

Exactly.

[George Severis]

And then the black women being like, no, thank you. And also, I'm going to Miami as one.

[Doreen San Felix]

Don't listen to me. Like, the shit that I say sometimes.

[George Severis]

Sure.

[Doreen San Felix]

It's like, I'm not.

[George Severis]

I mean, on this podcast.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

We already have insulted so many communities.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, my gosh. I have.

[George Severis]

No, no, no. No, you haven't. Just bags.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Wait, I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Sam Taggart]

I want to go back to the tote.

[George Severis]

I want to go back to the tote, even though I'm like, we have to have you back on to discuss soft life. Because I'm.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, it's a. Like, we talked about, like, sort of head in the sand vibes.

[George Severis]

Right. So head in the sand was last summer.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Each summer. What summer? It is. So there was one summer that was Cliff girl summer. We can't get into it, but last summer was head in the sand girl summer, and it was because people were no longer reading the news.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

And so that's sort of what soft life is.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yes. It is an extension of that. It's like not reading the news because I don't know, if you think about Kamala losing, for example, there was a response from a lot of people that was like. Like, you didn't listen to us. So we're just gonna, like, abandon any kind of sense.

[George Severis]

I see. I see. I see.

[Doreen San Felix]

Of, like, I don't know, like, moral rectitude.

[George Severis]

It's like, why try if no one is paying attention?

[Doreen San Felix]

I see. Yeah.

[George Severis]

Huh.

[Sam Taggart]

Huh. Well.

[Doreen San Felix]

Or it's not really like, if no one is paying attention, it's just like, we're not gonna save you anymore.

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[George Severis]

Okay.

[Doreen San Felix]

Which is, you know, what if I.

[George Severis]

Suddenly do that even though I'm not in that demographic? I'm sud. Your guys are not listening. I'm going to Miami.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, gay guys kind of are doing that at all times. I mean, the summer vacation industrial complex.

[George Severis]

Gay guys are skipping the chapter where you are politically engaged and want people to listen to you and are going straight to soft life.

[Doreen San Felix]

I mean, it's almost that season. We're in the middle of April.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, you think that's.

[Doreen San Felix]

Puglia is coming.

[George Severis]

Oh, my God. Julia is coming.

[Doreen San Felix]

Wait, what do you. What's. What's with Puglia this summer?

[George Severis]

Okay, so I'm almost scared to even say this on air. I have heard. So I am being pressured, okay. To go to Genoa.

[Sam Taggart]

What's that?

[George Severis]

Genoa, Italy.

[Doreen San Felix]

Do you know Genoa?

[George Severis]

Yeah, that's new.

[Doreen San Felix]

I haven't heard that one.

[George Severis]

I think that's going to be the new Puglia.

[Doreen San Felix]

Okay. Are you going to. Are you going to submit to the pressure?

[George Severis]

I think so. I haven't taken. I haven't taken a vacation that wasn't family oriented in maybe pre pandemic. So I think this is going to be my big treat to myself.

[Sam Taggart]

What's the first word you guys keep saying?

[George Severis]

Puglia is a big vacation destination that people go to.

[Sam Taggart]

Where is it?

[George Severis]

It is in Italy.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Damn. It's so awesome when something goes completely over your head, because it's sort of like, I'm glad I didn't even know to want. Like, that's kind of a nice feeling.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, my gosh. That's the philosophy that you've just named there.

[George Severis]

To not know, don't know, don't want soft. It's sort of like.

[Sam Taggart]

Sort of like I'm sort of soft.

[Doreen San Felix]

Life all the time.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Soft life of desire. Beautiful. Whoa.

[George Severis]

The soft life of desire. Doreen, write that down.

[Sam Taggart]

That's cool.

[Doreen San Felix]

Let me just get my pen out of my tote bag that's full of things.

[George Severis]

Okay. So I have another thing about sex being bag, about bags being sex. And this is controversial. Think about the life cycle of a bag vis a vis. Brand new, clean versus completely ran through.

[Doreen San Felix]

Right.

[George Severis]

There's something where it's like, if it's too clean, that's not attractive.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yes.

[George Severis]

But. Sorry, if it's too dirty, that's also not attractive. My bag is part of the life. So is mine, honestly. But part of. I think there's something. There's always this give and take between virginal culture and sex positivity. And ultimately we come out somewhere in the middle.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah.

[George Severis]

Where it's like, you have to have a certain level of sexual experience to be valid. But then don't go too far because this is still a Judeo. We run on Judeo Christian values in.

[Sam Taggart]

This town, in this fucking city.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, my gosh. Should we start a coffee shop instead of Rimano and Duncan?

[Sam Taggart]

Judeo Christian values.

[George Severis]

Honestly, it would do amazing.

[Sam Taggart]

That would be really great. I think we are. I don't know how much we're allowed to talk about it. And it's okay if not. But like, the New Yorker tote of it all.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. We were talking around it. I was being quite virginal.

[George Severis]

You were being so virginal.

[Sam Taggart]

And it is just like, it implies so much. There's a status level to it and then there's a conversation about there's a hate towards it because of the status level. And this thing that cycles around my.

[George Severis]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, I don't know where to stand on it. Like, I don't know where it lands in the culture right now.

[George Severis]

I can. I'll say something and then maybe that'll inspire other opinions. I think one of the reasons why a New Yorker tote is straight is because it is the default tote. Like, there's something hegemonic about it. Regardless of how you feel about the actual New Yorker magazine. It is like, think tote. What do you think? You think a New Yorker.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, it's standard.

[George Severis]

It is standard. And I think that is where a lot of the like. Because it has become canonized in this way, that's where the backlash comes from.

[Doreen San Felix]

Right. It's also. We're having a very New York centric conversation.

[Sam Taggart]

That's true. Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

Like, part of the reason why you even feel strong emotion when you see someone wearing that tote is because you're probably seeing them wear it in, you know, these neighborhoods.

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Doreen San Felix]

I'm not gonna name Them that I've been talking about.

[Sam Taggart]

No one talks, though.

[George Severis]

No one talks to the neighborhood. Neighborhoods, please.

[Doreen San Felix]

And then you are filled with the.

[George Severis]

Self loathing because you're like, I'm one of them.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yes. Because you're like, I identify that status symbol. It's not so much about the person wearing it, it's about the fact that you have this knowledge.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, yeah. It's even like there's something. If we're talking about sort of, let's say the Park Slope, like wealthy.

[Doreen San Felix]

You said it, Sam. That's crazy. I just said we were not naming neighborhood.

[Sam Taggart]

I'm like, I'm calling everyone out today. Enough. The Park Slope, like, wealthy family. That's still liberal and cool.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

You see them and you're like, septum ring. I want that. I'll never be able to have that. And I'm like, I'm jealous of it. And that's the New Yorker tote to me, kind of.

[Doreen San Felix]

And you don't want to admit to yourself that you're jealous of it. Yeah, yeah.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

But then it's people. Then it becomes also people trying to sort of imposter syndrome. Like, they'll like, get it. Cause they're like, well, I can have a piece of that lifestyle if I just get the tote.

[George Severis]

Right, right, right, right, right. Because there's also the. There's the other side of it, which is like, new college grad, just moved to New York City wearing a New Yorker tote. And she's like so excited about her big internship.

[Sam Taggart]

That's true.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

That's a sweet one. I feel like in my youth I would make fun of that one. But now I. Now I. Now in my haggard old age, now.

[Doreen San Felix]

I'm just like, oh, thank God you read.

[George Severis]

Totally.

[Sam Taggart]

You know, like someone is paying a subscription. That's great.

[George Severis]

Here's what I have to say. Let's see more New Yorker magazines and fewer New Yorker totes. Because. Because I'm on these trains and I'm seeing way more totes than people reading the magazine.

[Doreen San Felix]

And they used to tear that magazine up on the train.

[Sam Taggart]

It's true.

[Doreen San Felix]

You used to hear it all the time.

[George Severis]

You used to see it all the time.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. You know, it's like the New Yorker magazine no longer on trains. What is on trains is speakers.

[George Severis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

There are so many speakers on the train.

[Sam Taggart]

There's speakers on the train.

[Doreen San Felix]

And I have been taking the train by myself since I was maybe like 10 or 11 years old. And there was. I've seen some stuff I once Saw a kid get his ipod stolen from him out of his hand.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, no.

[Doreen San Felix]

On the 2 train, I was, like, 14 coming home from high school that day. And it wasn't even. I don't even know if you could call it like, a mugging. Cause there wasn't really any deep violence involved. This guy was just like, you're puny. I'm gonna take this. And he just walked off.

[Sam Taggart]

Sure, sure.

[Doreen San Felix]

I feel like I've seen all kinds of violations. But everyone knew, like, there was a social trust that you wouldn't blast music on the train. And now it's impossible. You just go. You're, like, in a, like, the seventh circle of Hell train. Like, car to car, someone's blasting something.

[George Severis]

Okay, here's my suggestion for you, Doreen.

[Doreen San Felix]

Don't take anything.

[George Severis]

You have access to the New Yorker offices, Conde Nast. You go in there, you get a bunch of New Yorker magazines. Whenever someone's blasting music, you go up to them, you say. You tap them on the shoulder, you say, read this instead.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, my gosh. A street preacher.

[George Severis]

Before my job, you say, Open to page 27. I have an amazing new piece. I think you're gonna absolutely love it.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, my gosh. I never. I don't know. I always feel. I feel, like, very not implicated when I see people with New Yorker gear. And, like, that's, like, between you totally. And Mag. Like, I think this is an interesting thing, actually.

[George Severis]

And I think this weirdly circles back to over identification with the tote bag brand. It's like, in the same way that a tote can be just a tote, or it can be your entire personality. Your job at XYZ Institution can either define you to the point where it's like, you know, in your, like, bio at the Parks Club Food Co Op, or it can just be, like, a tangential thing that you don't think. Like, it would be, like, if Sam and I were, like, proud iHeart employees.

[Sam Taggart]

Which we are.

[George Severis]

Which we are, by the way.

[Sam Taggart]

No, there's something I've always. This is an interesting point that I haven't really thought about. But there are people that make their jobs their whole thing. And you're like, oh, that's the blank guy.

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Sam Taggart]

And then there's people that, like, have that job and, like, almost keep it quiet so that it's not their whole thing.

[Doreen San Felix]

Right.

[Sam Taggart]

And I've always really admired the latter half, but also crave the legitimacy of the first half, of course.

[Doreen San Felix]

Well, there's something. I think we feel that it's chic when someone is like, oh, that's my job, as opposed to like, this is my everything, it's quiet luxury yet again.

[Sam Taggart]

We can't get enough of this quiet luxury.

[Doreen San Felix]

Soft life labor.

[George Severis]

It would not be quiet luxury if your handle on all platforms was ewyorkerdorrene. Your profile picture was a New Yorker sketch and your cover photo was the New Yorker dandy.

[Doreen San Felix]

Could you imagine?

[George Severis]

I would be like, what a loser.

[Doreen San Felix]

I changed the sketch, though, when we first did it.

[George Severis]

Of course. Of course.

[Doreen San Felix]

Because I smile in the world, but not when I'm doing my job. I'm a serious woman, of course. And our wonderful illustrator gave me a smile and I was like, absolutely not. Like I need to be taken seriously.

[Sam Taggart]

Wow.

[Doreen San Felix]

So I have, like a really straight line, severe face. I think I look like my cartoon, though.

[George Severis]

Wait, so did you request for your cartoon to not have a smile?

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

That's great.

[Doreen San Felix]

That's really funny.

[George Severis]

That's really good.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, I. There's something about. I remember this is very. I feel like it's in writing as well, but in comedy, it was very like, early on, when you're just a person that sort of does comedy, it's like you're trying to prove that you're real. And so there is this thing where people are like, I have been on Comedy Central and that's like your biggest thing. And you post about it constantly and then it becomes. But then you watch that as like a other. As like a peer, and you're like, well, that's tasteless. Why are they doing it like that? But I get the urge and I feel it's a funny thing to try to balance.

[George Severis]

I know during the Facebook days, a big running joke was that comedians would have. The way that the. The way that the structure of Facebook would work is that you. They would say works at Comedian because. Do you remember this? It would be the company self employed at Comedian. Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

I love. I used to screenshot those because they were a bunch and sometimes I'd have like a few things and they would always be so self serious.

[Doreen San Felix]

Comedian. Bartender.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Yeah. Best case scenario.

[Doreen San Felix]

Best case scenario. I used to be like a little bit of a comedy groupie.

[Sam Taggart]

Really?

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. I've never said that out loud. I don't like the way it sounds, but it's true.

[Sam Taggart]

For what?

[Doreen San Felix]

In college, I just would. I was obsessed with the improv troops.

[George Severis]

This is the most vulnerable thing I ever made.

[Doreen San Felix]

I don't know why I'm telling you this, but it's true.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

I think because I don't know. There's a link Right. Between writing and. It's both writing. And I really admired that they were willing to debase themselves.

[George Severis]

So can I. I'll say something even more vulnerable. Are you ready for this?

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. Are we gonna start crying?

[George Severis]

In college, I was a spoken word group. Oh, my God.

[Sam Taggart]

No way.

[George Severis]

I was obsessed with the spoken word group. I was not part of it. Just to be clear.

[Doreen San Felix]

I was gonna say, where's your kangal?

[George Severis]

No, no, no. I knew I did not have the talent within me, but I would go to all their shows and I would be legitimate fans of them and befriended them from the shows, and one of them ended up becoming a very successful novelist.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, yeah. Shout out. So you were fans of the college improv group? Not like.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. And then a little bit after college, I would go to New York City.

[Sam Taggart]

Performances, like CBD or something.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

That's so interesting. I mean, I was. Obviously, I was a.

[Doreen San Felix]

But I do think comedy's evil. Like, I just.

[George Severis]

Well, needless to say, you know what's crazy is that it, like, throughout history has been evil.

[Doreen San Felix]

Sure.

[George Severis]

It's just like. Well, I'm just thinking about the way the role that specifically comedians currently have in normalizing every evil thing, it's like. It's like someone. An evil thing will happen, and then all the comedians will be like, okay, great. So you normalize the sexist part, you normalize the racist part, and then let's get together next week and we'll sort.

[Sam Taggart]

Of figure it out.

[George Severis]

Like, it is crazy. And I don't know, was there a switch that happened, or has it always.

[Sam Taggart]

Been the pandemic made things much worse? Yeah. Okay, wait. This is something that I also wanted to bring up earlier, and I think this is a good time for it. So we told you about Lizzo's pass, Right.

[Doreen San Felix]

For some reason, when every time you say that phrase, I envision, you know, the map. Like, in the beginning of, like, a fantasy novel.

[George Severis]

That's literally what it is.

[Doreen San Felix]

And now you go down Lizzo's path.

[George Severis]

That's the reference.

[Sam Taggart]

That's the reference. It's fully Lord of the Rings code.

[George Severis]

Okay, I got it.

[Sam Taggart]

Do writers face Lizzo's past?

[George Severis]

Yes.

[Doreen San Felix]

You do?

[George Severis]

Yes. They definitely.

[Sam Taggart]

Because I've been thinking about this with, like, rejection being, like, a huge hit right now. Like, is he on Lizzo's pass? Right, or not?

[George Severis]

Is Tony on? Yeah, I think he's chosen Pitchfork, though.

[Sam Taggart]

But, like, I think he's on the pass currently.

[George Severis]

He's on the pass. What Did Sally Rooney choose?

[Sam Taggart]

I think she chose well.

[George Severis]

I know.

[Sam Taggart]

I don't know.

[George Severis]

I think.

[Doreen San Felix]

Cut the mic. I can't answer that question.

[George Severis]

No, no, we're not making you answer that question, but.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, God.

[George Severis]

Okay.

[Sam Taggart]

Can you think of any notable writer that you are allowed to talk about that has. Well, let's start. Can you think of any notable writer. Can you think of any writer that has gone through Lizzo's past and gone in a particular way?

[George Severis]

Do you think Joan Didion chose Target or Pitchfork?

[Doreen San Felix]

That's okay.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

It's so interesting that you bring Joan Didion up. I can't believe Joan Didion would come up in a conversation so rare.

[Sam Taggart]

Get us.

[Doreen San Felix]

Cause we're talking about agency.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

But I do think sometimes Lizzo's pass is not something that is done by the writers.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, the winds are blowing and the storm is brewing and sometimes you can get pushed.

[Doreen San Felix]

Exactly. And you're Rip Van Winkle and you wake and all of a sudden you're in like pile four.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

And it's fascinating with Joan Didion that like, Selene had a lot to do with that.

[Sam Taggart]

Uh huh.

[Doreen San Felix]

You know, all of a sudden, like, it really did. Yeah. Like that ad. She had always been fetishized as opposed to red.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

Two different things.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

And that ad just like really accelerated it. I think that the interesting about Lizzo's past to me is like, you can go back and then turn around again.

[George Severis]

That's true.

[Sam Taggart]

It is a geographic location. You're allowed to travel backwards.

[Doreen San Felix]

Absolutely. Sometimes there are writers who they put out a book or they do a story or they take on a second job and I'm like, that's so that you could get that apartment. And I'm fine with that. I think selling out is a bit of an outdated structure. Doesn't really like, make sense. With the way that labor works in.

[George Severis]

Art industries and especially with the substance ratio on social media.

[Doreen San Felix]

I think that, like, it is possible, it might even be like, good and generative to kind of like dip into Target.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

Not Target itself, because bad dei, we don't. We're not on top of Target. We're Costco girls here.

[Sam Taggart]

This is the concept of Target.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yes, the concept of Target. It's useful, I think, to like, abandon seriousness and to like, actually, I think, be on the level and interact with like, I don't know, sort of like basicness of our culture. Obviously, like, we think it's sacrilege because we're like, writers are supposed to be wise. They're supposed to Be, like, above commercialism, above all these things. But the dirty secret is, like, throughout much of history, most of them weren't. We just didn't have access to the way that they lived their lives. Like, holistically. Right.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

And so Lizzo's past, I think, can be, you know, subverted.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Hearing you talk about Lizzo's past is amazing. I really feel it's like when a dramatic actor does comedy and you're like, oh, my God, I didn't know it could be examined like that.

[George Severis]

You're right. Okay. Wow.

[Sam Taggart]

I think, okay, this might actually be a difference between writers versus musicians. Because I'm trying to examine if musicians.

[George Severis]

Can go back, then go back. Okay, who is a musician?

[Sam Taggart]

Because writers, I agree. Especially I think about movie writers will do one weird one. One mainstream one. One weird.

[Doreen San Felix]

One mainstream one which is accepted. We sort of understand that in order to be a good screenwriter, you do have to prove that you can make commercial.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. But musicians, they aren't allowed to backtrack.

[George Severis]

In the same way of a musician that has gone, visited Target, and then went back to the past.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, let's think about it. Let's think about it.

[Sam Taggart]

God, this is hard. Okay, Okay, I have one. Well, this isn't quite right, but maybe it'll lead us in the right direction. I kind of think Bon Iver, because.

[Doreen San Felix]

I felt like, was Connie a Target?

[George Severis]

Well, that's the thing. That's a larger conversation.

[Doreen San Felix]

No, I mean, Bon Iver with Kanye.

[George Severis]

But that's the thing. It's like. I think that's what you're implying.

[Sam Taggart]

But I think. But I also think that, like, the second album that, like, won the Grammy and that got, like, this big mainstream thing, and it really felt. And I think it was in commercials for, like, Apple, and it was like, okay, this is like, he's big now, and then he's in Kanye songs, and it was like, okay. Like, I personally was like, I'm cool. I don't care anymore.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

And then he kind of went back and did, like, electronic, weirder music again. And then now he's sort of settled into a. He can go either way.

[George Severis]

Okay, so maybe it's musicians. Okay. It's musicians that also work as producers. It's like their producer chapter of their life is Target. Like, they can go do a. You know, do a. Do a song.

[Sam Taggart]

Tame Impala.

[George Severis]

Tame Impala.

[Doreen San Felix]

Ooh. Okay, sorry.

[Sam Taggart]

This is great.

[Doreen San Felix]

I'm commandeer right now.

[George Severis]

Please, please.

[Doreen San Felix]

Because. Because I've written a lot in my life. A lot of it's Shit.

[George Severis]

That's not true.

[Doreen San Felix]

Some of it is great. And the best thing I've ever written was one sentence, and it was a tweet back when we had Twitter and it was black people love Tame Impala. Because they do. They do. You're nodding your head. I see you. There's something about one of my favorite, I guess, outcome of, like, the racialization of pop music is the way that, like, white pop producers end up, like, ventriloquizing what they think black music sounds like. Like, Max Martin, I think, is like, a really great example of.

[George Severis]

I was thinking, like, Diplo.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. Or Diplo. Diplo is like, a little. He's like, on the more evil side of that.

[George Severis]

Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Doreen San Felix]

But this idea that, like, you know, in the late or the 20th century, blackness becomes like, lingua franca. And people in Sweden and people in Perth, Australia, feel, like, a proximity to it, this, like, sound, and then they reinterpret it. And I don't. I'm not talking about appropriation. I'm just talking about, like, this kind of process. And Tame Impala is such a, like, great commercial example of that because it's like, funk music.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

But it's so easy listening, and you just, like, can't help but submit to it. And black people love, love it. It's just such a thing.

[Sam Taggart]

Is Tim and Paula Australian? Are they American?

[George Severis]

I think they are Australian.

[Doreen San Felix]

American. Yeah. Kevin Parker.

[Sam Taggart]

He's Australian.

[Doreen San Felix]

Is Australian.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay. Okay.

[George Severis]

I once saw them on Halloween and they were all dressed like the Spice Girls for Halloween while they were on stage.

[Doreen San Felix]

Really?

[George Severis]

It was really special.

[Doreen San Felix]

Wow, that's so beautiful. I would have cried.

[Sam Taggart]

Well, in the spirit of Lizzo's past, where do we think Tame Impala is now?

[Doreen San Felix]

Now Tam and Paula is at. Tam and Paula is coming back from Target.

[George Severis]

Yeah, I agree.

[Doreen San Felix]

Taking a long time.

[Sam Taggart]

It's a long journey self checkout. It's a long journey self checkout.

[Doreen San Felix]

Keeps forgetting something. Goes back. Oh, I forgot to get my Kristen.

[George Severis]

Wake at the Target. Lady is like, tapping him on the shoulder.

[Sam Taggart]

I mean, literally, that's like. That's like he did the Gaga song a few years ago. He's like, I'm leaving Target and I'll do Dua Leap at this time.

[George Severis]

Do you think men are afforded more leeway in terms of visiting Target than women are? And of course, I'm thinking of Liz Phair and Jewel, two women who, like, tried to visit Target, and people were.

[Doreen San Felix]

Like, love that song.

[Sam Taggart]

Love that song.

[George Severis]

And I also love the Liz Phair Pop record.

[Doreen San Felix]

I think it's so good anyway.

[George Severis]

But it's like when they did that, I mean, quite literally, Pitchfork gave the Liz Farah. So the flop zero. And then she was blacklisted.

[Doreen San Felix]

Right. Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Something.

[Doreen San Felix]

I think that.

[Sam Taggart]

I think you're right.

[Doreen San Felix]

I think that that was the case for like Gen X and now we're like over correcting for it.

[George Severis]

Yes, totally.

[Doreen San Felix]

Do you know what I mean?

[Sam Taggart]

Well, now we're doing that thing where we're like gal. Gal's Pitchfork. And it's like, well, she's Target.

[Doreen San Felix]

Exactly.

[George Severis]

Or how Pitchfork. Again, all my love to everyone we know that writes for Pitchfork, but Pitchfork being like, announcement, we're giving all Taylor Swift albums 10.0 starting today. You're just like, okay.

[Doreen San Felix]

Exactly. And you know, there's people talk about poptimism and all these things, but fundamentally it's like music should be like a little difficult to listen to.

[George Severis]

Yeah. Almost like all arts music.

[Doreen San Felix]

You shouldn't be. It's just like. I don't know. Even when Cowboy Carter came out last year, people were singing in the same bracket that it was an album that was like questioning the genre, questioning the way that it doesn't attend to the black roots of like roots music, folk music, all this stuff. It's doing all that stuff and yet you can play its song in Target and no one flinches. You know, it's like, how can it both be like radical and subversive, but also just like so like pleasing? Like there's like a solicitation quality.

[Sam Taggart]

This question I've never understood. There's like a big. Cause there is like, that's like sort of gay credit card commercials. It's like people are like, we need this. And it's like, but we also hate this. And I'm like, which is it? Is this good or bad?

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah, yeah.

[George Severis]

Here's a question. Lizzo was just. Lizzo herself was just on snl. She's debuting a new era. Do we think Lizzo is gonna leave Target or is it too late?

[Doreen San Felix]

I think it's like a Black Mirror episode. Like, you remember the one where were in a snow globe? Like, Lizzo thinks she's on Earth, but that's where she is.

[Sam Taggart]

When I see Lizzo's past, I see her in the wall. Like Han Solo almost. She is just like. She is frozen in Target.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. And there's something about it that I find with her particularly. It's kind of heartbreaking.

[George Severis]

Of course.

[Sam Taggart]

Of course.

[George Severis]

Because she's so talented.

[Doreen San Felix]

She's so talented. You can't not give her that.

[George Severis]

It's so charismatic. I actually love Lizzo and there was.

[Doreen San Felix]

A moment where it was like, that was the reaction that you had to it.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

But I don't know, for someone who seemed like she had such a defined sense of self, she, like, really disintegrated once she, like, reached a certain. And I think maybe you're seeing that with a Chapel too.

[George Severis]

It's true.

[Doreen San Felix]

Where it's just like, you actually. You cannot, like, stabilize in this moment. And so then you just, like, go down the kind of, like, easy route of wearing a T shirt on SNL that says Terrified on it.

[George Severis]

Right.

[Sam Taggart]

Is that what. I didn't see this?

[George Severis]

Oh, that's what she did. Yeah, she did that.

[Doreen San Felix]

She did that.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, God. Well, I'm praying for Chapel. I hope she survives the past and.

[Doreen San Felix]

I'm praying for her. Yeah, I want her to. Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

I hope she breaks free of the wall that she's frozen in.

[George Severis]

That's right.

[Sam Taggart]

In Lizzo's Pass. Someone I need to work with, an artist who can sort of mock up what Lizzo's pass. I see it so clearly.

[Doreen San Felix]

And Put it on a tote bag.

[George Severis]

Yeah, put it on a tote bag.

[Doreen San Felix]

Put it on a tote bag.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay.

[Doreen San Felix]

What are the other routes, though?

[George Severis]

T shirt that says, I survived Lizzo's Pass. There's two. I chose Pitchfork at Lizzo's Pass and I chose Target at Lizzo's Mask.

[Sam Taggart]

The way that Lizzo's Pass is a geographic location, I need someone to 3D render it for me.

[George Severis]

Oh, gosh.

[Doreen San Felix]

What is it passing over?

[Sam Taggart]

Well, there's a big cliff, of course. And so I think the cliff might honestly be Target. It's like you don't you kind of fall.

[George Severis]

Oh, if you're not careful enough.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. Because you have to. It's like a winding little pass.

[George Severis]

I really am fascinated by your point that you can choose Pitchfork but have your audience project Target in a Joan Didion esque way. I would almost say back to the Sally Rooney conversation, a version of that happened with her. I actually think she has not changed her writing. She has always been like, this is who I am. This is what I'm interested in. These are my politics. This is what I'm interested in my characters doing. It's not like she in any way sold out, but then at some point, because she got so popular, people were like, target. Target, bitch.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, my God. I get it.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

She became the New Yorker.

[Doreen San Felix]

Wow.

[George Severis]

Whoa. Now that's.

[Doreen San Felix]

That's a really grotesque Image. I'm very interested in that. Like, Sally Rooney just hanging around your.

[Sam Taggart]

Shoulder because it became status to have the book and to, like, know her. It was like shorthand.

[Doreen San Felix]

But. And it seemed, and continues to seem, you know, she's publishing in the Guardian, like, long essays about, you know, like, why it's essential to be a public intellectual who speaks about what's happening in Palestine and genocide, and yet her publishing company is, like, throwing book parties where, like, everything is decked out in the intermezzo checkboard.

[George Severis]

Yeah. They're like, don't talk to me till I've had my intermezzo.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. And she just seems so uninterested in that. And it's incredible. I mean, that's kind of the dream. You just in Ireland with your husband writing these books that I think maintain their integrity and people can do whatever, you know, like, the author's dead. They do whatever they want with it stateside.

[Sam Taggart]

This is fantastic.

[Doreen San Felix]

And you're just, like, continuing to do.

[George Severis]

Your thing because it's literally like you being. It's like you are at a protest and the Target offices are producing tote bags with your face on them.

[Sam Taggart]

There is a hologram of you.

[George Severis]

There is a Target. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

That is crazy.

[Doreen San Felix]

It's really fascinating. And also, I want to emphasize too, like, you know, there are some debates that people have around Sally Rooney where they're like, oh, is she a, like, chick lit author? Like, are we actually, like, misunderstanding the genre that she's writing in? Because we want to, like, you know, sort of project these, like, like, higher culture ideals onto her, Which I also think is mistaken, because you can write about romance and relationships and not have to, like, denigrate it as. I don't. As chicklet. You know what I mean? Yes, I do know what I mean. I think that. That her interaction with them shouldn't be seen through whether or not we think her literature is high.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

So much of the conversation around Rooney is like, is this real literature?

[George Severis]

Don't you think that goes back to your point about Cowboy Carter and how. How can something be both high art, radical, whatever, and also go down so easy?

[Doreen San Felix]

Right. There's something about it.

[George Severis]

And I don't know what the answer is neither.

[Sam Taggart]

What if I did? Yeah, that would be awesome.

[George Severis]

Wow, this has been.

[Sam Taggart]

I'm impressed.

[George Severis]

My brain is on a treadmill.

[Sam Taggart]

I feel like whenever we start this podcast, I'm like, what the hell are we gonna talk about today?

[Doreen San Felix]

I was so nervous, Irene.

[George Severis]

I just wanna say I was, like.

[Doreen San Felix]

Studying up last night.

[George Severis]

You get the first ever Straighter Lab award for excellence. Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, my God.

[George Severis]

Excellence in audio storytelling. Hi, Mom.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, this has been. I feel like I've engaged in a higher way than normal.

[George Severis]

Yeah. I hope that this episode is sort of like the normal people of podcast episodes and that it is so sophisticated and intellectual, and yet it goes down so deep. And people are listening to it, not on speakers, on headphones, on the subway.

[Sam Taggart]

And they're having a debate about whether it's important or not, about whether we.

[George Severis]

At Lizzo's Pass have chosen Target or Pitchfork.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. I love it when you get meta.

[Sam Taggart]

Can't help ourselves sometimes.

[George Severis]

It's true. It's a disease.

[Sam Taggart]

Should we do our final segment?

[George Severis]

Yeah. I mean, it pains me to say, but we have to.

[Sam Taggart]

I think we have to. So our final segment is called Shout Outs. And in this segment, we pay homage to the grand strait tradition of the radio. Shout out. Shouting out to anything. People, places, things, ideas that we are enjoying. And I'm gonna. I have one.

[George Severis]

It's always. We always think of them on the spot, which is why I currently don't have one.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah. And I. Okay, I'm gonna start.

[George Severis]

Okay.

[Sam Taggart]

And I'm gonna start. I'm gonna put the bar low.

[George Severis]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Sam Taggart]

What's up, freaks, losers, and perverts around the globe? I haven't done this yet, Right. I want to give a shout out to the book on everybody's lips. That's right, Rejection. Everyone's been talking about it, and I'm already late to the game, but I just finished it, and I was like, damn. Everybody was kind of right. I was so blown away by how. How cynical. Internety, sort of. There was a meanness to it that I really, really loved. It hit all of my most evil parts of myself. And I said thank you, because it really was like, oh, if you think you're pushing far, you can always push a little further and be a little bit even more. It felt like I kept saying, this is a spicy little book, and I think everyone should read it. If you've spent any time on the Internet, you'll get a kick of it. I love when there's a book du jour that everyone's kind of doing at the same time. And I say, c'est la vie.

[Doreen San Felix]

Wow, that was really great. I could hear the radio horns in the background.

[George Severis]

Ooh. Okay, okay, okay. You know, I'm gonna go book, but I'm gonna go so the opposite direction. What's up, freaks and losers? I want to give a Shout out to the audiobook of the Facebook whistleblower Sarah Wynn Williams. Careless People. You heard about this, folks. This woman worked at Facebook and now has published a book. And it is about how Facebook is evil. But what's most amazing about it is the inside story she has about Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg, including one story where Sheryl is offended that the Japanese prime minister doesn't want to take a photo holding Lean in the book.

[Sam Taggart]

Oh, my God.

[George Severis]

I sort of, like, started this book being like, oh, she's gonna tell it like it is, and it's gonna be so whistleblowery. And in fact, it's just a series of funny stories. And she has a New Zealand accent, and I'm listening to it while, you know, cooking dinner or something. And it's just so fun to hear this sort of, like, funny Kiwi woman be dragging Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg. There was just a story about how everyone was letting Mark Zuckerberg win at Settlers of Catan. And then she, in her telling was like, you're all letting him win. And then. And then she's like, awkward silence. And it's this very sort of like she's adopting this voice as though she's completely naive and at every point is shocked by everything happening around her. And at first it's grating, but then you're like, you know what? Go off. We're living in naive times, and it's about time someone wrote a book as though they were 12 years old.

[Sam Taggart]

That's amazing.

[George Severis]

Shout out to Sarah Wynn Williams. I highly recommend the audiobook because she does read it herself. And I cannot wait to get back to it tonight while I'm making my amazing chicken thighs. Huge.

[Sam Taggart]

Shout out. Woo.

[Doreen San Felix]

Are they marinating?

[George Severis]

You bet your ass they are.

[Doreen San Felix]

Okay. What's up, y'all? How you doing? It was nice being with you. Today I'm gonna give a shout out to Todd Haynes. I love Todd Haynes. I feel like I'm always, like, where he is, but for some reason, I'd never seen Mildred Pierce, and I recently. Okay, all right. So, you know, Todd Haynes is. Is really famous for kind of, like, reinterpreting the dicta of 50s filmmaking, the kind of woman's picture and putting it through this, like, different, I think, like, gayer, more intellectual filter and Mildred Pierce, which he remade in a 1940s film. The film had been made in the 1940s. He did this as, like, a. It's technically a miniseries, but it's really just like, a four Hour film starring Evan Rachel Wood and Kate Winslet. This came out like 12 years ago. I don't know why I had this blind spot, but recently I had like some hours to kill and I just sat and watched it. And it is one of the most interesting, grotesque, emotionally honest views on motherhood I think I've ever seen. So it's about this woman who is separating from her husband in the 50s and is entering the workforce. And she does work, she opens a restaurant that her daughter, who's very much like a shishi frou frou kind of girl, looks down on. And their relationship just like both blossoms and also like hurdles and it ends. I don't want to give away that I'm dating, but I don't know, it's just kind of like. Like we still don't know how to deal with motherhood. I think in film in particular, like we don't know whether we should choose like the sacrificial mother who just like gives up her life for the benefit of the child, or the selfish mother or the, you know, the indifferent mother. And this, it just like blew my mind and so. Sorry, I forgot the radio voice.

[George Severis]

That's okay.

[Sam Taggart]

We'll still put silly music behind it.

[Doreen San Felix]

Perfect. I just would encourage everyone to watch or rewatch Todd Haynes. Mildred Pierce.

[Sam Taggart]

I'm convinced this is how I feel.

[George Severis]

About the film Kinda Pregnant starring Amy Schumer. No, I have. It has been recommended to me so many times and I am actually, I think in terms of non television work, I do think I'm a Todd Haynes completist, but I've never, I've never pressed plan. Mildred.

[Doreen San Felix]

Well, that's what's really interesting about it. It's kind of like in this limbo because it's like, oh, Todd Haynes was doing hbo, you know, there was a lot of reaction to it 12 years ago, but for me, I think it might be my favorite Haynes.

[Sam Taggart]

Whoa.

[Doreen San Felix]

Over Safe.

[George Severis]

That's crazy.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay, well, I'm gonna watch this is.

[Doreen San Felix]

Can you put like a. Like a flash bomb sound?

[George Severis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We will also just wanna say. Don't you feel like safe is almost at the point where people are projecting target on it has become too niche popular. It's like everyone's favorite. Everyone's like out of the box favorite movies.

[Doreen San Felix]

Yeah. Have you seen Safe?

[George Severis]

Don't you think?

[Sam Taggart]

Damn. Huh. That's scary when that happens.

[George Severis]

I know. And yet it's so good.

[Sam Taggart]

Well. Oh, this has been an amazing episode.

[George Severis]

Absolute heaven.

[Sam Taggart]

Thanks so much for doing the padre.

[George Severis]

Thank you so much for doing the padre.

[Doreen San Felix]

It was so much fun.

[George Severis]

Please go to thenewyorker.com Doreen San Felipe.

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, is that how it works?

[George Severis]

I don't know.

[Sam Taggart]

I have no idea.

[Doreen San Felix]

Everyone's just gonna.

[George Severis]

Do you have anything else you wanna promote other than newyorker.com?

[Doreen San Felix]

Oh, do I want it like peace, love and happiness?

[George Severis]

Yes, peace, love and happiness.

[Sam Taggart]

I would love to channel that as well.

[Doreen San Felix]

I don't promote.

[Sam Taggart]

Yeah, no, no, no.

[George Severis]

Do you want to give a shout out to Doreen's review of YouSexua? Because we're fellow Stans.

[Sam Taggart]

Yes.

[George Severis]

And Twigs is someone who chose Pitchfork.

[Sam Taggart]

Firmly, firmly hardcore.

[George Severis]

Yeah.

[Sam Taggart]

She had no trouble dancing along that line.

[Doreen San Felix]

No.

[George Severis]

And no one's projecting Target.

[Doreen San Felix]

No.

[George Severis]

She can do as many Google Pixel ads.

[Sam Taggart]

Okay, that was amazing. Okay, bye.

[Doreen San Felix]

Bye.

[Sam Taggart]

Podcast ends now.

[George Severis]

Want more? Subscribe to our Patreon for two extra episodes a month, Discord Access and more by heading to patreon.com Stradiolab and for.

[Sam Taggart]

All our visual learners. Free full length video episodes are available on our YouTube.

[George Severis]

Now get back to work.

[Sam Taggart]

Stradiolab is a production by Will Ferrell's Big Money players network and iHeart podcasts.

[George Severis]

Created and hosted by George Severis and.

[Sam Taggart]

Sam Taggart, executive produced by Will Ferrell, Han and Olivia Aguilar, co produced by Bay Wang, edited and engineered by Adam Avalos.

[George Severis]

Artwork by Michael Fails and Matt Grubb.

[Sam Taggart]

Theme music by Ben Kling.