EPISODE 100: Don't Ever Stop Dreaming

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Strangers on a Bench

Episode 100: Don't Ever Stop Dreaming

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: August 10, 2026

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Overview

For episode 100, Tom Rosenthal continues his signature approach: striking up conversation with a stranger sitting on a bench, leading to a deeply personal and meandering exchange. This episode features a two-part encounter with a Polish woman living in the UK, encompassing themes of childhood, creativity, ownership, family, mortality, migration, activism, and the universal urge to dream. The episode is intimate, candid, and occasionally humorous, with both participants reflecting on their life philosophies and experiences. The conversation also marks a possible emotional endpoint or break for Tom’s “Strangers on a Bench” journey, underlining the message: “Don’t ever stop dreaming.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Ownership, Systems, and Early Memories (00:56–06:53)

• The conversation opens with stealing—sweets and orchard fruit—as an innocent childhood thrill, segueing into broader thoughts on ownership and the earth.
  • Quote: “Earth and gardens should belong to everyone.” – B (01:40)
• B recalls having a scooter stolen and details a restorative meeting with the young thief:
  • Quote: “I said, imagine if something like this happened to your mother. He started crying.” – B (03:31)
• Discussion touches on systems, order, and adapting to chaos (especially in India), with B noting her freelance, “organize chaos” sensibility.

Favourite Days, Childhood, and Religious Departure (06:00–11:52)

• Tom asks about her favourite day; B finds the concept elusive, arguing that a favorite day is only recognizable in retrospect, shaped by surprise and joy.
  • Quote: “A day is favorite once the day is done.” – B (06:29)
• B recounts her religious upbringing in Poland, her dislike for church, and how, at 14, curiosity and questioning dogma caused her to leave.
  • Quote: “Why should one feel guilty for being alive? I’m a child…I don’t think what I do is sinful.” – B (09:13)
• Sundays were spent sneaking off with friends, listening to music, and sidestepping parental expectations.

Unexpected Life Events, Family, and Waiting (15:14–18:39)

• After a midday break, Tom and B reconvene. She recounts her day: bed delivery delays, chance encounters, and friends intertwined with newsworthy achievements (her friend’s boyfriend recorded sound for Barack Obama).
• An anecdote about her town’s sinkhole launches a reflection on the fragility and randomness of life.
  • Quote: “The fragility of the earth. It could just collapse underneath us.” – A (19:16)

Mortality, Motherhood, and Family Dynamics (20:08–29:09)

• Tom asks about moments of realizing life’s fragility; B describes seeing her elderly mother and surviving a car crash in Poland.
  • Quote: “I look at this elderly lady…fragility of someone you really love who is old.” – B (20:58)
• B’s father’s death transformed her awareness and priorities, leading to more intentional time with her mother.
  • Strong, open mother-daughter relationship; estranged from her sister (“just didn’t get on”), revealing the complexity of sibling ties.
• They discuss the increasing prevalence of conversations about death among friends as their parents age, but B is unafraid—she’s “very much aware how you can open your awareness” and sees it as part of life.

Creativity, Activism, and the Call to Make (34:01–43:30)

• B considers her resilience, life experiences, and “lust for life,” even after heartbreak, migration, and political upheaval in Poland.
  • Reflects on coming of age during the fall of communism, encountering both its restrictions and its sense of equality.
  • Quote: “My coming of age was like…a summer of freedom.” – B (36:43)
• The pair discuss activism, cynicism about modern protest, and the importance of genuine action over symbols.
  • Quote: “Real activism is…you put your life on the line.” – B (39:33)
• B shares her career in textiles, shaped by early intrigue and determination in a foreign land, never working for a corporation, always drawn to small-scale, artistic craft.

Teaching, Mentoring, and the Pursuit of Creativity (45:46–57:06)

• B also teaches creativity, focusing not on skills but “reawakening” self-belief and discipline, helping adults who want to rediscover play.
  • Quote: “Creativity is really a fussy muscle. You have to really nourish it all the time.” – B (54:41)
• She describes her unorthodox career beginnings in the UK: deportation, returning illegally, and finding a mentor by sheer perseverance.

Tom’s Reflections on Success, Fear, and Desire (48:14–52:26)

• Tom shares the pressure of sustaining “Strangers on a Bench,” describing both the joy and burden of consistent creative output, and his fear of losing artistic vitality.
  • Quote: “My great plan after this…is to try and not do something creative.” – A (46:51)
  • Quote: “The challenge is to not carry on doing more and more…it’s to stop.” – A (48:21)

Dreaming, Migration, and the Essence of Never Stopping (59:25–63:00)

• Migration stories emerge: B’s initial experience of deportation from the UK, her return, and eventual acceptance in the creative world.
  • Quote: “You just did the same thing this morning—you just asked.” – B (59:48)
• B and her mother (now 83) both still dream; the theme “Don’t ever stop dreaming” emerges repeatedly.
  • Quote: “The moment you stop your imagination, then you can die.” – B (63:00)

Love, Home, and Endings (63:22–66:02)

• Tom and B riff gently about love: she claims not to love anyone romantically “right now” but is always full of desire (“That never ends”).
• B lives alone, never considering a lodger: “It’s a very British mindset.”
• The conversation closes with a walk to the station, symbolically bringing the episode—and perhaps Tom’s run of bench conversations—to an end.

Musical Coda (67:01–End)

• As with each episode, an original song inspired by the conversation plays. Lyrics reflect on transience, dreaming, and meeting a stranger:
  • Notable lyric (67:20):
    “If you want something, you ask
    If you don’t, you will regret
    And the thing you have not made
    Is the thing you can’t forget…
    Don’t ever stop dreaming.”

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On ownership and life:
  “Earth and gardens should belong to everyone.” – B (01:40)

• On confronting a thief:
  “I could have been your mum. Imagine your Mother’s Day if something like this happened to your mother. He started crying.” – B (03:31)

• On favorite days:
  “A day is favorite once the day is done.” – B (06:29)
  “Maybe it’s our job as humans…to not have a favorite day eventually.” – A (07:08)

• On faith and guilt:
  “Why should one feel guilty for being alive?” – B (09:13)

• On migration and resilience:
  “I was deported because I was illegal migrant and I came back a year later.” – B (60:03)
  “That was really painful. Really, really humiliating.” – B (60:15)

• On creative drive:
  “I have lust for life. I’m really curious…That’s why I am where I am.” – B (34:01)
  “Creativity is really a fussy muscle. You have to really nourish it all the time.” – B (54:41)

• On activism:
  “In that part of Europe when people call themselves activists, they are real activists. You put your life on the line.” – B (39:33)
  “The spirit can still be in you.” – A (41:45)

• On dreams and not stopping:
  “Don’t ever stop dreaming. The moment you stop your imagination, then you can die.” – B (63:00)
  “You meet the master and then you have another dream for being creative and then you have a dream for life.” – B (62:39)

• On family relationships:
  “If she wasn’t my mom, she would have been a friend.” – B (24:34)

• On creative burnout:
  “The challenge is actually to stop…to not carry on doing more and more.” – A (48:21)

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Notable Episode Structure & Flow

• 00:00–13:00 – Initial meeting on the bench: introductions, early experiences (stealing, childhood, church, parental expectations).
• 14:14–16:17 – Reunion and life update: the bench arrangement, afternoon adventures, and reflections on the pleasures of serendipity and living by the sea.
• 16:18–32:00 – Deep dive into family, mortality, and the passing of time.
• 34:01–47:00 – On creativity, resilience, divorce, and life’s hardest lessons.
• 47:01–57:10 – Tom reflects on what it means to stop, challenges of creativity; B discusses teaching and mentoring adults in creative pursuits.
• 57:11–66:00 – Stories of migration, professional beginnings, and affirmation; gentle and playful discussion about living alone, love, and longing.
• 67:01–End – Musical reflection; poetic distillation of the episode’s themes.

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Final Thoughts

This milestone episode captures the essence of "Strangers on a Bench": unvarnished honesty, the beauty of serendipitous connection, and an unwavering belief in possibility. Tom and his stranger-turned-companion create a space where past pain, present longing, and future dreams coexist—“Don’t ever stop dreaming” rings out as both closing benediction and open challenge to every listener.

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Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a.

[B]

Are you from the BBC?

[A]

I'm not from the BBC. Oh, you don't have to hold this, but you can just. You just drop.

[B]

Yeah, no, I'm curious.

[A]

I mean, you can hold it if you want.

[B]

Make sure I don't steal it from you.

[A]

Yeah, you can. We haven't had a theft yet. I quite like the idea of someone just running down the beach. A kit was stolen and that's the last of the podcast. And I was just shouting, no. Have you ever stolen anything?

[B]

Of course.

[C]

What?

[B]

Sweets, obviously.

[A]

Oh, it's classic. Anything more than sweets.

[B]

I went to somebody's else's orchards and stole pears and apples.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what a plentiful orchard.

[B]

Nice stuff.

[A]

Was this recently?

[B]

No.

[C]

No.

[A]

Do you wish you still had the stealing energy in your life?

[B]

Okay, well, let's clarify. Stealing and wanting to have something which doesn't belong to you. I'm just reading a book on gardens. And then she says, well, earth and gardens should belong to everyone.

[A]

So you'll say, who owns anything and what is ownership?

[B]

Kind of. But I wouldn't steal this because it will really hurt you if you lost your equipment. I've had things stolen from me.

[A]

What's been stolen from you?

[B]

Well, I have a couple of scooters. I lived in London for many years. It's like 20 something years ago. I had this really cute Japanese Honda. It looked like Barbie. Little thing, small wheels, 49cc. And it got stuck. I started on a day and I lived in North London. I had an interview in central London. Big portfolio to go around. And a sewing machine. The scooter was big enough to hold my sewing machine between my legs. And then I reported it to the police station. And later on they said, like, well, we know who did it and we have this program for young people. You have to help me because I.

[A]

Rehabilitation.

[B]

Rehabilitation. Yeah, rehabilitation. And I said, yeah, go on. Yeah, let's do this. So they prepared me and said, look, you cannot be angry at this person, but let's just have a conversation and tell them about your day. And this young lad came over with the texture.

[A]

Oh, he said, they bought around this person?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Oh, wow. With the scooter as well?

[B]

No, the scooter's gone completely. I mean, it's a Joyride. And I said, did you really have fun on that night? And he said, yes, Mum. Well, no, Mom. And I said, do you want to hear about my day? I said, I lost a day, you know, figuring out what to do. I was a poor artist. Of course, I couldn't afford to get a taxi and drive me with a sewing machine with a portfolio. You know, I could be your mom, potentially. I could have been your mom. Just imagine your Mother's Day if something like this happened to your mother. He started crying.

[A]

Oh, whoa.

[B]

Well, because he probably had feelings for his mum.

[A]

Well done by you there.

[B]

Kind of. But that's how I, you know, I'm not. I'm not a nasty person. I might do silly things to people, but I wouldn't never. There you go.

[A]

There is actually a bit of a system to this whole interview thing.

[B]

I hope there is.

[A]

There better be a system. Yeah. You like systems? A systems person.

[C]

No.

[A]

You hate them. Well, you don't believe in possession.

[B]

I do. No, no, no, no. Come on. I do. I do. I'm very systematic. I like order. I organize cows. I work in India a lot and that's just like, no system. And then I'm like, okay, I start and I finish and I have what I need. That's an example of organizing chaos. And I'm a freelance person. I work as a freelance. So you have to organize. I have to wake up. Right. I have to come. I told you, I have a meeting.

[A]

That's my favorite job, though. That's one of my favorites. Fantastic. I think I saw a bit of your system earlier.

[B]

How was my system? What did you see in my system?

[A]

Because I saw you. Because you. You were by the. You were doing various things with your body by the sea. You looked like you had. Not that I was like, over. I haven't been watching you for hours, by the way. Like you were doing what I consider kind of quite routine, patterned behaviors.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Does that seem fair?

[B]

Well, because I walk barefoot. If you take your shoes off, you'd be doing the same. You have to balance. You know, when you step on a pebble here and it hurts, you go like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm not dancing. If I was in your trainers, I'd be just walking, probably.

[A]

So you ready for this first question?

[B]

I guess.

[A]

What do you think it's going to be?

[B]

Just don't ask me what I do for a living.

[A]

Oh, no, no, no. You know what? My least favourite question.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. You are going to come.

[A]

I'm never going to ask someone that it is. Do you have a favourite day of the week?

[B]

Well, no and yes.

[A]

Give me both.

[B]

I like surprises and I'm very curious. So my favorite day in a week is a day when lots of things feel really nice. And I would say, oh, that's a favorite day.

[A]

Quite a non committed answer there. There's no set favorite. That just feels good.

[B]

Okay, well, when you wake up, it's a Wednesday.

[A]

This feels good.

[B]

No, no, a day is favorite. Once the day is done.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

So it's the experience of that day.

[A]

Yeah. But there's not one that you're aligned

[B]

with all my Wednesdays. Oh, my Saturdays.

[C]

No.

[B]

A day can be great when unexpectedly something brilliant just happens. I thought like this. Well, this will be a good day.

[A]

I remember this gonna be a good day.

[B]

Yeah. Friday I met this guy on the beach and he had this fancy equipment. Had you asked me this question when I was a child, then it would have been much easier. Of course I would say, hate Sundays church, hate Monday school.

[A]

Maybe it's our job as humans to. To not have a favorite day eventually. So, you know, maybe that's the task

[B]

because you expect that it will happen again. And the more we expect, the less chance of it to happen.

[A]

So Sunday with church. What is your church now?

[B]

Garden and swim and friends loving land.

[A]

When was the last time we set foot in a church?

[B]

Sometimes when I'm in Italy, I walk in because it's so hot outside and you know, there's like always marble on the floor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So just take your shoes off and if nobody's watching, you can lie on

[A]

the floor, roll around.

[B]

Well, kind of, you know, get cooler.

[A]

When you were little, when you were in the church on a Sunday and you were looking around, what were you thinking? Do you remember? Do you remember? So we know you a bit now and we know that you would have. Yeah, you would have thought boring and then you would have made it more exciting for yourself, surely.

[B]

I never did.

[A]

It was really just sat there, always paralyzing. How did you escape?

[B]

We had to suffer through 45 minutes and you know, we had to go to confession thing.

[A]

Did you confess any?

[B]

Of course. You know, as a child, same thing

[A]

every week or just different?

[B]

I don't know. It's so long ago. I left church when I was 14 years old and. And I became vegetarian for some reason. I solved one for another.

[A]

That's the way it goes. No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So 14. Why 14?

[B]

Well, I mean, you know, I remember like asking a priest once, I was like, well, but surely Mary couldn't have been a virgin and then give birth. And then why all the. All the church art is so sad. They all look so sad. But, you know, you listen to what they say, and you should be. There should be a sense of happiness. And why should one feel guilty for being alive? And I'm a child. Like, I don't think what I do is sinful.

[A]

So you had that awareness. That was good. You actually said that at the time. Really?

[B]

Yeah, I said, I'm very curious, you know, so if I go over a fence and I steal apples, I mean, is this really sin? I mean, I just want to eat an apple or sweet raspberries, you know, I mean, the. They punish you for when you're a child.

[A]

When you did finally leave the church.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did anyone mind? Did you have to break it?

[B]

I think it must have been another sin. So I'm just gonna check. What's the time now? Because I have.

[A]

What have you got to go to?

[B]

Bed delivery.

[A]

You've got a bed delivery.

[B]

That's fine.

[A]

Okay, that's good.

[B]

I'm just there. So I asked a question again. Oh, this is somebody mind. So it must have been sinful because I didn't want my parents to know. So I, you know, on a Sunday, I would go up to my friend's house and stay with them for a couple hours.

[A]

Hang on. They didn't even go. Their parents didn't. Why didn't they not go with you?

[B]

Because at that age, you would go alone, but you would go.

[A]

So it was easy then to skive off.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Do you remember what you did in those on that Sunday?

[B]

Probably played music. I was a teenager in the 80s, so we had George Michael on the wall, Madonna, some punk rock. You know, I'm from Poland, so lots of Polish punk rock, lots of music. So probably just played records. And her father was a really strict communist. And my dad was active, you know, like in Solidarnos, the movement which actually brought communism to end. So we knew that we couldn't speak politics. And, you know, I mean, we slept on illegal pamphlets. You know, my dad would distribute stuff around, like really political involvement. And we were just girls. We probably spoke about, you know, clothes and boys and music and where's the next disco and stuff like that. So that was better than God and suffering for poor Jesus who couldn't have been born by Mary without having sex.

[A]

Tell me something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How long have you got now before you have to go?

[B]

I tell you what I have. I have 12 minutes.

[A]

Okay. Can I propose something to You. Yeah, I would like to talk to you more. I'm going to be here all day. Would you consider coming back and continuing our conversation further?

[B]

But tell me a little bit more about this business. What are you selling this business? What's your choice?

[A]

Well, you know what, you know what, you know what? You'll like this because. Well, first on the selling front, I would say not to brag too much about this podcast. I would guess with a fair degree of certainty, one of the. More you can walk about, you can walk away to go more, you just run away.

[B]

I'm the first one. I'll be the first one you tell.

[A]

Start running, you tell me, do a sprint, see what happens.

[B]

Yeah, there you go.

[A]

Yeah, no, go on. With a fair amount of uncertainty, I can say it's the. I would say the most listened to podcast that doesn't have adverts.

[B]

Brilliant.

[A]

So it's not selling anything and it deliberately doesn't because I feel like the last people I want to exploit the people I talk to. And so there's no you can.

[B]

I don't mind.

[A]

You can, but no, no but. There's no. There's no but. There's no money in it at all.

[B]

Yeah, I can talk to you.

[A]

That's great. Okay, should we call this part one and then we'll just meet up later? No, you can have a whole

[B]

day.

[A]

You can have a whole day and

[B]

then it's going to be favorite day because I'm having really nice bed delivered, handmade, proper.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Shropshire. We're all the best, apparently.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

I'm gonna go.

[A]

Okay. What time do you want to meet later?

[B]

Maybe 6?

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

Shake on it for another day. Okay. Shake on it.

[A]

Where are we going to meet?

[B]

Here.

[A]

Here again? Six o'. Clock. This is an arrangement without any text messaging. It's just a human arrangement.

[B]

If you don't show up.

[A]

Fine, I will show up.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Okay. So it's got to that time and I can't see her anywhere. I'm now starting to doubt the bit that we thought we would meet on. Oh God. Is she even going to turn up? That's the question. What is life when you're waiting

[B]

for

[A]

a Polish woman who you met that morning? What is life? And you don't know if she's going to turn up. So we found each other again. Yeah, we've had our big gap.

[B]

Yeah, let's see.

[A]

I mean it was in doubt. I was starting to get. To be honest, I was starting to get a bit worried. I started. Do I worry A lot, generally. No, no, I worried about this because I just thought. I enjoyed talking to you this morning. I was hoping you were going to come back and so, you know, there was a small bit of fear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Came in. But anyway, we got there. We got it. We made it. We should be celebrating, really.

[B]

So what. What can I tell you? And how much time do we have? Because I have about.

[A]

Oh, not another deadline.

[B]

It's a Friday evening. Let's say an hour. No, it's an hour.

[A]

Let's do what we can. Okay, so run me through your day.

[B]

You need my day?

[A]

Well, you've got your. Well, you know, we need to know what happened in between the two meetings.

[B]

Oh, really? Yeah, the bird came.

[A]

Did you lie down in it straight away?

[B]

They were very late and they were. The delivery guys were from India. So that was really nice. I had a chat with complete strangers.

[A]

How lovely. So how long were they in the house for?

[B]

Maybe half an hour.

[A]

Okay, lovely. Fantastic.

[B]

And I had friends earlier. The delivery had been delayed about three times today. So my friend.

[A]

So you went to the friend after me?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You haven't tried.

[B]

This is really an investigation.

[A]

I promise you the best out of your life.

[B]

Listen, so my friend's boyfriend, I had some textiles with me and. And I haven't seen him for like a couple of years. And Don says, like, oh, congratulations on this and this. And I'm like, oh, congratulations on. I'm not gonna. But I'm going to say, because you asked me about a day. Yeah. I'm not just dropping names. You ask me. There you go. So I said, well, congratulations on President Barack Obama. And he says, oh, you know, I'm. Yeah, yeah. Really nice guy.

[A]

So you're. Hang on, you're. You're. You're congratulating this friend.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

On being. On doing something with Obama.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We don't know, but something.

[B]

My friend's boyfriend is his sound record.

[A]

He's a sound recorder.

[B]

Director of sound.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

He records sound.

[A]

He records sound.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like me.

[B]

Yeah. I'm not making it up. You didn't ask me for my dad.

[A]

No, no, no, no. Look, you can. I believe you. I believe you. So your friend's boyfriend is a sound recorder and he's recorded Obama? Yeah, yeah. You see? Look. Wow. What is that?

[B]

No, not just that. This happened a year ago, very close to my hometown in Poland.

[A]

Okay, start again.

[B]

Not in London. Not in Washington.

[A]

You're congratulating for something that happened a year ago?

[B]

Yeah, because I haven't seen him.

[A]

Oh, you haven't seen him. And so. And this friend of yours recorded him in Poznan, right? In like an interview?

[B]

Well, be careful what you ask for.

[A]

It's just going to be an hour of you talking about your friend meeting Obama.

[B]

You asked me for.

[A]

No, no, I did, I did ask. I did ask. And you're giving it to me. Okay, so how. Tell me what he did.

[B]

So he was in Poznan because his friend, who's a filmmaker, he's making a documentary about Barack Obama. So he traveled with Barack to different locations last year. Yeah.

[A]

Fantastic. And then after. Delivery guy. So you haven't even. You haven't laid down on this bed? No, I thought that'd be the first thing you would do. No, you've been. How long have you been waiting for this bed?

[B]

Eight or nine weeks. Eight weeks.

[A]

You're waiting for. You're very patient.

[B]

I couldn't because where I live there's a big. There's a. Like a sinkhole in the road.

[A]

A sinkhole, that's quite exciting.

[B]

One day it all collapsed. It just went.

[A]

That's exciting.

[B]

And it's been really, really neglected. And today electricians came and said, like. Well, actually there's a cable strapped there and we have to cut the electricity off, so we have no electricity today. Very exciting days.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

The sinkhole. At least you weren't, you know, in that particular spot when it. They can be enormous.

[B]

Well, because it just goes. And there's like another life.

[A]

It makes for the fragility of the earth. It could just collapse underneath us.

[B]

Well, this town shouldn't even be here. It's a concept. It was, you know,

[A]

isn't every town a concept?

[B]

But this particular piece of land, I mean, St. Leonard's is developers. They dreamt it up. They wanted to have Regent's park on the coast.

[A]

And you're just living in a dream now of some long dead person a hundred years ago. Yeah, you're living the dream of a long dead person.

[B]

There you go, with a sinkhole and a strange conversation. Really expensive equipment. I think I might take it home.

[A]

You got to run. You gotta run with it. You gotta to run with it. So, the sinkhole.

[B]

You're not asking anything specific?

[A]

What do you mean, I'm not asking anything?

[B]

I don't know you. You're interrogating me.

[A]

What do you want me to ask?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Do you want to be asked something?

[B]

Well, because you said that there's a structure. Conversations usually have a. You have a structure.

[A]

There's no structure. Okay, but also you've got to work up. Just, you know, it's a. It's an arc. It's not a. It's not a jump. Okay. It's a journey. It's a journey. You're not sure I was going to ask you about sink. You know my question, Katie, about sinkholes? No, My question was if you were over that sinkhole and it. It went, you could, you know, be injured or dead or whatever. I like the moments when you realize the virginity of what's around you. When was the last moment you were like, oh, wow. Everything is very fragile.

[B]

I guess when I see My mother, who's 83, Every time I see her and I. I adore. I love my mom and I look at this elderly lady and I guess it's fragility of someone you really love who is old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's not about my own fragility. And I had a car crash about a year and a half ago, and I got over that really quickly.

[A]

The next day.

[B]

Yeah. Because nothing really happened apart from, like insurance, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[A]

Was it a bad crash this way?

[B]

Yeah. I was driving and now I was driving in Poland and it was the first day of snow and. And I'm okay, you know, I can drive in snow, but because it was the first day, it's dodgy. It's really dangerous because you don't quite. Like the wheels don't understand it yet. Is it the snow? Is it ice?

[A]

No one understands what's going on.

[B]

Yeah. And then I couldn't brake and the person couldn't brake. It hit me here and the shock of it was that, oh, so this is how you can die.

[A]

You're like, this is how it could happen.

[B]

This can happen.

[A]

Yeah. The snap of the fingers.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I knew exactly what was going to happen. I know this sounds spooky, but loads of people, when they are in various accidents, they say you could almost see it happening. It's that split moment and it's. It's not even in our time, is in different dimension, probably in that other

[A]

dimension you're talking about. Can you try and describe where your mind kind of went? What was that thought?

[B]

Clarity. It's almost like there's extra time for you to be aware that this is happening. And I thought, okay, everybody is driving really slowly, so I can also drive really slowly and pretend that nothing really happened. So I drove back to Mum's. I got there, I started feeling really tired. And I think when you are in a situation like this, the initial shock is that Everything will happen fine. And I just had to. I decided not to tell mom because it was evening, she was just worried and she wouldn't sleep. I was like, she doesn't need that piece of information. So next day when I woke up, I had loads of pain everywhere.

[A]

I was in, like, your body just went into, like.

[B]

Yeah. Suddenly it was like, yeah. And then was like, yeah. So. And then I think next day, I think when we had dinner, I said, oh, you know, I had this car accident. And I cried and she cried and. But, you know, sometimes you have to fix things for others and not make a drama from, like, so many people have car crashes and it's okay. But 10 months later, I was, like, really stiff and. And I. I saw my physia and he's like, I don't really know what's happening. And he started interviewing me and he was like, so you had a car crash? That's why none of it is working.

[A]

None of it's working. You mentioned your mother's getting older.

[B]

Her. She is. She's 83.

[A]

83.

[B]

Sweet granny.

[A]

Yeah. What do you not know about her?

[B]

Well, there are things I don't know about her which she wouldn't know now because of her memory.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

I have really lovely relationship with her. I can ask. We can ask each other everything. Literally everything.

[A]

That's wonderful.

[B]

But what's also really lovely about getting older is that she remembers more things from childhood which she never remembered when I was a child. And also because my dad is, like, gone, my dad is in heaven, it's just me and mum. So it's like we have been given this extra new time together. Away from Papa. Yeah, yeah. Because I really like my mom as a human being. She's a really nice person. And even if she wasn't my mom, she would have been a friend.

[A]

That's sweet.

[B]

And I discovered that some years ago. I didn't have that when I was a kid.

[A]

What took you so long to discover that?

[B]

Well, I left Poland. I was away for very, very, very long time. And then, I don't know, I just had curiosity to find out and to get to understand my mum from different perspectives. And also when she came to London to see my life in London, she actually understood who I am better. I took her to my studio and she's like, oh, so that's. That's what it means. And we have each other for each other for however long we want.

[A]

Who will look after you when you're 83?

[B]

Not my children. I don't want Anybody to look.

[A]

Not your Georgia. Because.

[B]

Because I don't have children. Yeah. I don't want to. I don't. I hate my children.

[A]

You had children? They're not gonna look up.

[B]

I don't have children. Yeah. Should you sit there? Because I need some sun. It's quite.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's cooler now.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

You can just. You take your little. You take your.

[B]

I take a friend.

[A]

Yeah, you run off, you start running, you just start sprinting with your friend.

[B]

Actually, death is something. At least once a week we talk to friends about death because most of our parents are either dying, will die soon. So conversations about death are actually really interesting.

[A]

So you're always talking about death?

[B]

Not always. I said maybe once a week we talk.

[A]

So you think about death quite a lot generally, not really. Do you think about your own death much?

[B]

No, no. I mean, I.

[A]

You're fresh.

[B]

You are close to death. When you swim in cold water and

[A]

that's where you like it.

[C]

No.

[B]

Well, death is inevitable, so just. It really is just part of life. And I've not been aware of this part of life up until few years ago when I witnessed my father's death. And I had to like rejig entire life to make sure that I have time when I can go and actually spend quality time with my mom to make sure that the last years of her life are as fun as possible. So, you know, so when I make breakfast again, it might just be the same as she had yesterday. You know, we have little dance or something. You know, we crack a joke or laugh.

[A]

Is it just you siblings?

[B]

No, my sister, but she's also abroad. She lives in France, so. But we've always been this family in, you know, different countries.

[A]

Yeah. Do you get on with your sister?

[B]

Not very much.

[A]

Oh, me?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Do you? Why? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. All right, let me guess. Can I guess?

[B]

You guess. Yeah, go on.

[A]

Well, so you're. You're the talented younger sibling, you said. It's difficult being talented, isn't it? It's hard. It's hard to live for someone high ability.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, no, I think it's just from. From a get go, we just didn't get on.

[A]

Yeah, it can happen.

[B]

It can actually. It can totally happen.

[A]

Did your father's death not bring you together?

[B]

No, it actually made it clear that we really don't have. I mean, we are really good organizing things together. There's no neglect.

[A]

Did you do a speech at his funeral?

[B]

No, he didn't want. But it would Be really nice. There would be. I think we'll do like a little party. One of my. When my mom goes. We'll definitely have a boogie.

[A]

Lovely. That's lovely. Who would you want to do a speech at your funeral?

[B]

Never thought about. It's like I'm not. It's just too early.

[A]

Just around the corner. Everything's tomorrow, isn't it? Do you know what I mean?

[B]

No, because I'll be once. Once I'm gone, I'll be just having fun somewhere else. No, in another dimension. No, I want to be like reborn somewhere on another planet probably.

[A]

Okay, okay, this is good. This is good. Okay. So I'm currently reading a book about the afterlife. No, no, no, hang on, hang on.

[B]

Are you making it up now?

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I am someone imagining different possibilities of different afterlives. You know, not in a religious sense, just in like you imagine if there were different ones, what could they be anyway, if you had to invent one, what would you like it to be?

[B]

I'd love to be seal or whale. Some people who actually consistently swim through cold water through winter. You have out of body experience. It's kind of like you in the head space. Dimensions kind of expand and you feel like you are part of something so much greater and so much more beautiful. And this kind of nirvana, I mean, you know, it's something ecstatic, wonderful and very constant. It's not just for one second. You kind of. You have longing for it. So winters can be very special here. As I said, I don't think much about death, but I'm very much aware how you can open your awareness and kind of like send your antennas or your drones out to higher frequencies of functioning. Whales or dolphins. They hear on different frequency and they feel on the skin of different frequency. So that's what I would like to experience in another life. Greater awareness and appreciation of how beautiful Earth is, how beautiful this whole thing is. And because I'm a physical being, I'd love to be able to do all these things. They go around the world and dolphin business come totally. Absolutely. Dolphin or eagle? I'd love to be a big bird. Like really like that's fun. Really big wings.

[A]

You ever tried hand gliding just with a.

[B]

No, I've never tried. I tried. I've been few times in the Alps. I've been on like tiny propeller, like a tiny plane.

[A]

Yeah, they crash all the time, don't they? No.

[B]

Well, when you hear about it, it crashes. But lots of more people go out than crash.

[A]

That would Be good if they just flipped it and they went. Just news. Breaking News. There were 27,000 safe flights today, right?

[B]

Yeah. And fewer people divorced this year. Or fewer children had been kidnapped. No.

[A]

Oh, why not?

[B]

I am actually.

[A]

Oh, there we go.

[B]

Great.

[A]

See, I knew you were. See? Intuition. You pick it up. You pick it up.

[B]

But a long time ago.

[A]

So long ago. You forgot.

[B]

Yeah, you tell me about it. No, no. Why not?

[A]

Come on.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

I have my boundaries. These are my boundaries.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I've told you a lot. You can ask me different questions.

[A]

Can I guess? Can I keep guessing? Okay, so you would have.

[B]

This is getting boring.

[A]

So you.

[B]

No, but this is getting boring actually. Because you're not psychologist. But you are trying to ask me. You think that you will find out something.

[A]

No, not at all. I don't want you to just finding about your life, just piecing it together.

[B]

So can I ask a different question? Because I think this is just going very conventional.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Conventional question. What?

[A]

The divorce?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, there are other things more exciting about life than divorce.

[A]

No, of course.

[B]

You keep asking me. Who is going to read when I die? Can we actually. Can we. Can we just. I'm going to stop this. Can we just stop the family business?

[A]

No family. Yeah. Just modern life. Okay.

[C]

What do you.

[A]

What do you. What are you good at? Okay. No family. I see something.

[B]

I don't. I can't do that stuff.

[A]

Why do you think you've been successful in life to the. To get to this point?

[B]

Because I love life. I have. I have lust for life. I'm really curious and I've had lots of in life as we do.

[A]

Like the car crash.

[B]

That was. That was nothing.

[A]

Compared to what? All the divorces.

[B]

But you know.

[A]

No, a lot of in life. Well, that's. Anything you can tell me. Is there anything you can tell me about one of them? Can you give me one of them?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Or do I have to get.

[B]

I will tell you and you are not going to interrogate me on that.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

So. Yeah. So heartache, you know, like breaking up from your life partner.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

It's terrifying figuring out how you plan a new life when you have your mom being a single old lady in another country. Very hard. Yeah. Being let down by some people in life can be really, really hard. So. That's what I'm saying. In a normal state stuff.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Have you ever let anyone down?

[B]

I must have. You know, I'm not an angel. Probably.

[A]

What? In what ways do you think you're not an angel. Like, what do you think is complicated about you?

[B]

No, don't try it.

[A]

You thought about it for a minute. You thought about answering that, didn't you? You gave that little. You gave that little thing.

[B]

I'm quite a good psychologist. And you are. You just don't try that string. Get another string. Get another string. Yeah. I mean, I am an angel for most of people I know. Yeah. And probably for the ones who don't think I'm an angel, that's, that's fine as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I don't hate anybody. I don't use the word hate. I just don't understand that feeling. I've been, you know, in bad situations in my life. You know, I live with dictator. I live through really hard political situations.

[A]

Communist Poland.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't hate people, though.

[A]

Can you tell me what that was like?

[B]

Oh, how. What can I tell you?

[A]

No, no, no question is too big.

[B]

Just ask me something specific.

[A]

Well, I mean, how so 1989.

[B]

1989. Of course, we all painted posters, you know.

[A]

Okay, so.

[B]

And we went on barricades.

[A]

So 1989. How old are you in 1989? You are 19.

[B]

19. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so my coming of age was like. It was like a summer of freedom. Perfect.

[A]

Perfectly timed.

[C]

Maybe it was all you.

[B]

I got my foot. It was all about me.

[A]

They wouldn't have done it otherwise.

[B]

I got my passport because we couldn't have passports.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

What else couldn't you have?

[B]

We couldn't travel to the western part of Europe. You know, for years we lived in like, total censorship. So the phone conversations were censored.

[A]

Did you, did you know that at the time?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. So what did that mean, the letters, you know, you would receive a letter opened, read and stamped, like censored.

[A]

So the, the state was very present. As in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like.

[B]

It wasn't just like, you know, English people read 1984 and, and imagine what it would be like when you live in it. It's. It's quite, it's quite extreme.

[A]

Can you think of the most. What element of it most affected you of communism? Yeah,

[B]

it's a tricky one. For example, there were only few but very, very good things about communism. We are all, up until my and generation above me, we are very, very well educated. There were no differences in society. My neighbors were, were bakers as well as doctors. So I was quite shocked when I first arrived in England, like in London. Why people asked you about your postcode? Because they will know who you Are if you lived in West London. I didn't understand the concept and I didn't understand the working class and middle class. I was like, what the. What's that? It looked more broken than where I came from. Well, because I was a child and a teen, I think it must have been really hard for my first generation of my parents. Like you had no freedom of speech and no freedom of going to another country. And you know, When I was 11, there was martial law. So you know, there were tanks everywhere and guys with Kalashnikovs and stuff like that. But as a kid, I was 11 years old, we had, it was a really strong winter and we had so much snow and we just weren't like sledging and skating. Like I would skate forever, forever on a skate ring. Everything was free sports education, you know, skating.

[A]

So the Marshall Orbit didn't particularly. You were just too busy skating.

[B]

About kids, you know, we didn't go to school for a week, but it was fighting for my parents because my dad disappeared for two days where he was taken in.

[A]

Yeah, what an interrogated.

[B]

Yeah. Because in that part of Europe when, when people call themselves activists, they are real activists. They don't just go to marches and then go to pub or, or drink coffee. It's like, you know, you put your life online. And I think we've had that because we've been like chopped by different countries for about 200 years. So we have that kind of like. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[A]

Do you think you carry with you that spirit still now? Do you see what I mean by that?

[B]

Well, I know what you mean because people ask me that.

[A]

I don't mean in, I don't mean in like an activism sense. I mean in a sense of like,

[B]

well, wanting justice, determination. Yeah. I would have write letters to my mp, for example. Or if something isn't working like with my phones, I Google the name of the CEO and write it to the CEO and sure thing, they fix it next day. Only because I wrote to the CEO and I'm like, it shouldn't work like that. Yeah. So the question. No, this is a really good question because many people ask me that.

[A]

I got a good one. I got one good one in.

[B]

Well, you have to earn it. No, I'm kidding. So the answer to this question partly is yes because I'm from Poland. But the other part of me, I think it's something I was born with. That empathy is just part of my, you know, I guess get goosebumps when I hear something terrible. Yeah, I don't do it intellectually, I don't go and pay some donation because one should. And I'm also quite cynical about when, you know, a few years ago we had XR resistance.

[A]

Yeah. Extinction rebellion.

[B]

Yeah. And now it's just like, this is like weekenders. It's like, you know, some people go to Glastonbury, but others will go to London to go and pick it. And it's like. And what? Nobody gave up a car. Nobody gave up flying. Nobody gave up anything. Apart from Greta, probably a few real hardcore people did. So, yeah, I have a. I have a sense of what real activism is. I'm not one.

[A]

But the spirit can still be in you, I suppose.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But also activism also is to push against something, to push yourself, to go the extra mile.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I suppose I am the extra mile person. And that can be in you. You're the extra mile person.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where's the shirt from?

[A]

That's a good question.

[B]

Well, it's definitely made in. It's printed in India.

[A]

Do you like it?

[B]

Well, because it's indigo, so I know what it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's a real indigo. It's not fake indigo. It's probably pigment or fiber. Indigo. Good shot. Oh, thanks.

[A]

Thank you very much. Why have you spent so much time in India?

[B]

Because I work there. I don't spend loads of time there, but I have been going to Jaipur for 20 something years.

[A]

Okay. It's intriguing in textiles.

[B]

How do you know? Did I say that?

[A]

No, just guess.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

What's that meant in your life? Good thing to work with.

[B]

Beautiful things to work with. I design clothes, but I've been lucky enough. I never worked for a big corporation and, and I've always somehow you know, been given, like, opportunities to work with smaller people on smaller scale. And, and I, I met people in India many, many years ago who are like, like number one heritage place for hand block printing on the museum, which they built themselves. So. Yeah, that's why India.

[A]

So were you always going to be in textiles? Is it always going to happen?

[B]

Well, actually, when I was small, there was a cloth shop in front of my. Just, just the opposite of my school. And I. I'd go there very often, like, really like a kid. I was like 9, maybe 8, 11. I didn't know. And I would ask them to pull some rolls of fabrics for me. I played with fabrics. I would just. I would just drape fabrics from my arm down to the floor. And nobody said anything to me. And I was just fascinated that there's this fabric which drapes and. And if you drape it around the body, the. The fabric which is flat, which is 2D, turns into sculpture. And I've always had fascination for that. I've been fascinated and I still am. Pattern cutting, it's the art of understanding how to turn fabric into garment. Because we are not the same and we all. We need that. We need movement everywhere and we are built differently. And it's. Can you imagine?

[A]

Yeah, it's like a never ending puzzle.

[B]

Yeah, it is. It's quite scientific. Hang on, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna send a text message because I'm really enjoying this conversation.

[A]

Okay, good.

[B]

Another half an hour.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

Yeah. Let me just send this. I do want to ask you some questions when we finish. So you did ask.

[A]

You can ask me anytime.

[B]

How old are you?

[A]

Do you want to guess?

[B]

No, just tell me, how old are you? I don't need to guess. Just tell me, how old are you?

[A]

39.

[B]

And what does it feel like being 39?

[A]

Should I tell you?

[B]

No.

[A]

Great.

[B]

I'm gonna do my business now.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Because I gave you so much of my own time.

[A]

Do your business.

[B]

So do you ever think that you'd like to be creative, like again, differently? Like push your creativity somehow?

[A]

Yeah. As in that's not this? Yeah. No, no. Well, yeah, no, it's a good question.

[B]

Would you like to be creative more again, somehow?

[A]

Yeah, I already have been.

[C]

No, no.

[B]

I'm not asking you about the past. I'm a mentor. I love asking this question because it makes me understand pursuits of creativity, why we do. Why we do what we do. So the question is, what are your biggest challenges in being creative?

[A]

This is going to sound quite bad what I'm about to say, but I'm

[B]

gonna say you told me that an hour ago. Don't. This is no good. Not bad.

[A]

But one of my big challenges actually is to try and not do something creative. Because I've been doing it for such a long time, many doors open, which is beautiful, but also intense and very consuming. You know, I was only supposed to do a few. A few episodes of this podcast. Try it. Just 10, 15, 20 episodes. Just to see what it's like is I wanted to do it and it went too well. It almost was like impossible for it not to continue because there was too much demand. And desire for becomes like a force in of itself. The bigger something gets, the stronger it gets, the more you're not in control of it. So in a way, my great plan for after this and there's going to be a break very soon in this podcast. We're about to get to 100 episodes. This may even be the 100th episode, potentially. I might just break it after this. Maybe you're the end, but have a. Have a little break and then almost actually try and not, like, do nothing. Do nothing. But actually, I don't want to do nothing. I had a vision for my 40th year. Well, sorry, 41st year after I was 40, was going around and living in other people's lives for a day or two, you know, like, seeing how they work, maybe trying to help them just be useful, you know? So imagine, you know, I say I want to come and be me. Be like, just follow you around for a day and I can make you cups of tea or something, you know, and just look at the sinkhole, you know, and monitor it. I can monitor your sinkholes.

[B]

Okay. So the question was, what is your biggest. Do you remember the question?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What was the question?

[A]

Biggest. Biggest challenge. Biggest challenge. The challenge is to not carry on doing more and more and more. So it's to stop. That's the challenge.

[B]

So what is your biggest fear of being creative again? Because it's. Because you. Well, you are saying that it's almost like this is almost too good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, it's almost exhausting.

[A]

Oh, I know. The fear. The fear is really easy.

[B]

So what's the fear?

[A]

The fear is easy. I've got so used to putting things out into the world consistently. For the last 20 years, I've just been like, thing, thing, thing, thing, thing, thing, thing. Probably seeking too much external love validation. Too much validation. Needing that on a consistent basis is like, I'm not necessarily a healthy attribute.

[B]

But you are aware of that.

[A]

I'm aware of it, yeah.

[B]

So stopping this.

[A]

Yeah. I sometimes think you need to face the emptiness of what is there if you're not constantly giving yourself that hit, you know? So every week I get to put something out into the world. Now a new person goes into the world. A new song. Did I tell you about the songs? So every episode ends with an original song by a different artist. So, you know, there's a commission song for every single episode.

[B]

So who's going to sing for me?

[A]

Who's going to sing for you?

[B]

Prince, obviously.

[A]

I'm gonna bring Prince back from the dead.

[B]

Prince, where are you? So can I ask more questions?

[A]

You can ask many questions. You want.

[B]

What do you think? What is the most difficult about imagining that you might be creative more again? Like, I'm afraid that I won't be as good anymore.

[A]

Well, I want to do some songs again.

[B]

Singer.

[A]

Yeah. So I sing songs. So the idea is I would like to do some more songs, you know. But the fear is. I have a big fear of songs losing their power with age. For me, that there's a. That youthful uncertainty is so important in songwriting, you know, like, you never get certain. I know. I only know my mum. No, you never get certain. But things start to happen, like, you know, parents die, you know, I've experienced so, you know. You know, I've had children, I've had a parent die. I've had a separation from the mother. In many ways, she's still a partner to me and she will be for life. But in terms of romantically, we're separated. So I've done all these things, you know, and I feel like there's a lot of kind of. I don't know, a lot of them have been written about already. I mean, I've written about them, I've done it, you know, and so it's. Yeah. It's just tricky to know whether I still have that. The burst of energy needed to write some good songs. Yeah. Like, really, like, ugh. You know, and it pains. I find it such a horrible idea. The idea of putting something out into the world, which is kind of feeble and just desperate. You see what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's what I mean. The beauty of doing this, it's always fresh, it's always interesting.

[B]

But you'd like to start. Start singing again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If everything. If sky's the limit, what is the biggest dream?

[A]

I just. I actually just don't know. And that also. That also is. That also is a fear. There's so many. Lots of things I want to do. I want to be a better friend to people, you know, all day today, I'm just traipsing around trying to find people to talk to.

[B]

Strangers other than friends.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And I have lots of lovely friends and. And I haven't seen enough of them. And I've slightly unbalanced my life by becoming very passionate about this one.

[B]

I have a question to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, I'd like to interview you.

[A]

What you do now? Just carry on.

[B]

No, no, no. Because there's. Because. No, I tell you what.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I teach and I. I'm fascinated by how creativity. What is it like, you can't touch it. No definition of creation. Creativity is a good definition. And I have, like, a set of questions which I don't have in my mind right now, but Once a month, I always want to talk to a stranger and ask, I actually ask people 10 questions because I, I help people to be creative again in life, later in life, never in life, whenever they feel that I would like to be creative and I'm not.

[A]

Why do you do this?

[B]

Because people want to be creative, creative more in life and don't allow themselves to do it. There's lots of self criticism. They have been told, once you're not good at it.

[A]

It only takes once, doesn't it? I've learned that sometimes it's one thing.

[B]

Yeah. Completely insignificant, but it does the job for you. Yeah. You know, lots of people with their like 9 to 5 jobs dream about having a studio somewhere. And lots of people don't even think about being like famous artists. They just want to have, have like a small cave. You know, you go and you are in your dream world and it's, it's yours and it's, it's, it's sensation of being alive. And then. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, this is privilege what you do, what I do. You know, I took a day off today, for example. You're on the beach. But lots of people spend days in jobs which they don't enjoy, actually don't like. So there's lots of unhappiness as well. And when we get older, that internal call becomes. You just can't ignore it anymore completely.

[A]

I'm just interested why you wanted to do this for other people.

[B]

Because I work with lots of people and I know that people want to do it and don't find enough motivation, self discipline and think that you need some special gift to do it.

[A]

No, you don't. Yeah.

[B]

And it really is like, it's down to self discipline. It's really finding a window every month to do something and you actually have to start and you have to show up again. It's like running for marathon. Creativity is really, it's really fussy muscle. You have to really nourish it all the time. So you ask me why I do it. It's because, why not?

[A]

Why shouldn't people do it? What's been your, your happiest breakthrough with someone?

[B]

But like obviously when they, when they go like, oh my God, like I'm different. I can sense this difference, this big change in life, but I can't tell you exactly what. I'm happier in life. I'm more awakened my life. I notice more things. I have more really lovely reflections about life or I spot beauty in every day.

[A]

So you don't really, you don't need financially. I don't teach people.

[B]

I don't teach people anything. I don't teach skills.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

They have to show up.

[A]

You just help motivate them.

[B]

Well, they motivate themselves and they listen to what they say. Sometimes when you say something out, you hear how ridiculously silly it is. You know, we have so much self criticism inside everyone. And listen to any big, like superstar painter, singer. Everybody says, like, I wonder how I did it. You know, ask them all, like majority of artists and creative people who made it. They all go, like, somebody's gonna find out one day, you know, because they don't have jobs. Jobs.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[B]

And I just love it. I think, you know, lots of people have that ink that like calling and like, why not do it?

[A]

How did you start? You woke up one morning and thought, I'm gonna do well.

[B]

I want to teach. I wanted to teach. It's really difficult to get a college, art college to commit to a new teacher. Yeah, I am, I'm very good. I, I'm, I'm a good teacher. So I applied to a few courses and I had a couple of interviews and then I had this like paperwork admin and I'm like, okay, so how much time do I actually have to spend with a student? So how can anybody deliver any teaching these days? And I thought, like, I'm just gonna teach on my, I'm just gonna do my own course.

[A]

You're gonna go and do it?

[B]

I'm just gonna go and do it.

[A]

It's very, it's very you thing to do.

[B]

Do. It's a very me thing to do. I always knock. I always knock on the door.

[A]

Keep knocking.

[B]

When I first came to London, I mean, years ago when, you know, we. If you wanted to call fashion studios or anyone in the, in the Vogue magazine, you just call them because everybody had the landline and everybody had an

[A]

office or a secretary and you just call up.

[B]

Yeah, well, my friend did because I didn't speak English.

[A]

What? Saying what?

[B]

Oh, she's, she, she says she's really good. Yeah, she's good. And she'd like you to say whether she's good at it. And would you take her as an apprentice?

[A]

Love it.

[B]

Well, because I needed someone to tell me whether I'm good at it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There were no fashion colleges in, well, nothing interesting in Poland. And when I came to London, I had no money to study at Central. And so I thought, well, but I'm just going to study from people. I learned everything I'VE been given so many. So I've been given everything. So it needs to go out in a way. It needs to go out.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Should we wrap up?

[A]

I was gonna ask. I know. Can I see one more question? Yeah, actually, I got to do two.

[B]

Let's just get going. Slowly.

[A]

Oh, we can walk. Let's walk. No, no, it's recording. You take. You need to hold it. Can you hold it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, hang on. 1. We gotta keep walking.

[C]

Okie.

[A]

Walkie to the sunshine. Okay, fine. So, yeah, so what I was gonna ask is this I was gonna ask you about. That's a nice light, isn't it? Look at that light.

[B]

Yeah, we have amazing light here. It's different color there.

[A]

Beautiful stunner. Okay, so you arrived here when you're how old? London?

[B]

I was 23, I think. Okay, 25 maybe.

[A]

But you arrived without any English?

[B]

No, I didn't. English was really like almost nothing.

[A]

What was it like to arrive as a 23 year old here?

[B]

Well, I wanted to work in fashion and I was excited, but I just knew that I was just gonna thought

[A]

you just definitely gonna do it.

[B]

Yeah, I knew that. I have to try because if I don't try, I will regret. I always try. If I want something, I will go and ask and have an an. Yes.

[A]

You make it sound so simple.

[B]

You just did the same thing this morning.

[A]

No, you're right, you're right, you're right. Can you think of your biggest push you did at that age? Your biggest jump, then you look back now and go, I can't believe anyone would ever do that.

[B]

I tell you what, I was deported because I was illegal migrant and I came back a year later.

[A]

Wow, that's cool. They just didn't notice.

[C]

No.

[B]

And maybe law had changed by then. I don't know. They basically arrived here. That was really painful. That was really, really humiliating and painful. You arrive at the airport, they take a passport from you, you don't speak a language and they disappear with your passport. And then somebody took me to like a corridor and the room at the end of the corridor and I sat there. I spent about eight or nine hours at Heathrow and they were interrogating me. Why are you coming here? You don't speak the language. And I was like, well, you know, I'm just a young person. I want to see London. I want to learn, you know, I

[A]

want to work in fashion.

[B]

I want to work in fashion.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So that was the most painful and humiliating experience.

[A]

Oh, that's awful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that didn't stop me from coming back.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I didn't even understand what was that I wanted to do in fashion. I just spent life kind of dancing, clubbing, and I squatted for a couple of years. So I wanted to meet the master. I wanted to work with some amazing masters and I wanted to meet this someone. And only they will tell me if I have this thing, which I think I have. Like a good teacher. Yeah. You know, a good teacher normally should spot something in you that, oh, you know, she's good at this and that.

[A]

And you did meet that person pretty much right away.

[B]

Straight away, yeah.

[A]

And they told you you do have. You do have it.

[B]

What? I just said stay here. Doesn't matter that you have no portfolio. You just have this. You just have a thing.

[A]

But what did you show this person?

[B]

I took a rucksack of my clothes and my friends rang them and said, she's really good at sewing and pattern cutting and she makes really good clothes. Normally in a fashion house, you make an appointment, you find an agent, you bring a portfolio. And I was just like, ding dong, can I work here? I think they just took them by surprise and they said, like, well, just stay for a few days.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

I stayed for a few days and after five days, they employed. They actually employed me.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Respect. I love the fact that you wasted no time. You're straight to the master. Master told you could do it. Done. You solved the problem.

[B]

No, but you know what life is like? It's like, is this. It's like the question about when is your most favorite day? You meet the master and then you have another dream for being creative and then you have a dream for life.

[A]

You still have lots of dreams now, of course, they never run. They never run out.

[B]

55. My mom is 83. She has dreams. Don't ever stop dreaming. Don't ever stop. The moment you stop your imagination, then you can die. Buy it on the blank black web is there. Get the black feel and go.

[A]

So do you live alone?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What's it like living alone?

[B]

Well, give me a spectrum, what it's like.

[A]

As in like, you know, what do you enjoy about it? Do you really have a lodger?

[B]

Never.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

I'm from Poland. I don't have that mindset.

[A]

Sorry. Why wouldn't you have a lodger?

[B]

It's a very British mindset.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Do you have friends in Germany or France or Spain with lodges? I've.

[A]

I've, you know, I know some people with lodges.

[B]

Do you have a lodger?

[A]

Children they're lodgers. No, the ultimate lodger Lodger Deluxe Log and deluxe.

[B]

I'm gonna go this. Are you going?

[A]

Well, I'm gonna go to the station.

[B]

Yeah, no, I walk you there. I'll show you where the station is

[A]

and I go, okay, great, great, great. It's just straight up here.

[B]

Do you have this caterpillar?

[A]

The caterpillar.

[B]

Should I take it home?

[A]

You have to take it home.

[B]

But I want to listen to it somewhere or see it somewhere. Where is it?

[A]

Well, that's, you know, Rose will have to edit. Edit this and then it becomes, you know, podcast in five years time. Five years time. Or it could be really soon. This could be the.

[B]

This could be the last.

[A]

This could be the last one. This could be it. It's a good meeting. You've been a good person to meet. Maybe this should be the last episode, actually. And then I'll have a break after you. Maybe you're the break. You signify the break.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'm trying to think why you signify the break. What is it about you? I just needed to hear Barack. As soon as I heard Barack, I knew it was time for a break.

[B]

To go.

[A]

That's how you know. This podcast also has the. The last. You hope we can do the last question now. You ready?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which is what are you going to do next? That's how they all end.

[B]

I'm going to walk you to the station, give you the caterpillar and go home.

[A]

So what's your home life like then? You living nice life? Are you in love? You haven't done any love stuff.

[B]

Are you in love?

[A]

Well, no, not now. Not really. No.

[B]

You don't love your children.

[A]

That's very good. That was a good setup. You set me up there. You set me up because I love my children. I love my partner, too. I love my. I love the mother of my children. We need to talk about your love.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. I told you everything.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[B]

I don't love anyone right now, if that's what you want.

[A]

Is there desire?

[B]

Of course. There's always desire. That never ends.

[A]

And what are you desiring?

[B]

Well, love. Everybody wants love. No?

[A]

Yeah, this is true.

[B]

You get from here.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

On the other platform, where you go

[A]

anyway,

[B]

I think. Are you local? You fake.

[A]

That's not my train. Anyway, goodbye. Nice to meet you.

[B]

Nice to meet you. Can you get Prince to sing for me?

[A]

I'll get Prince to sing. Prince.

[B]

I have a say. Can I choose?

[A]

Well, you're gonna have to choose the next in a minute. I've got to get a train. Pick an instrument. Quick.

[B]

Read.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no. It's got to be a new song. Pick an instrument that you like. There you go. It's done.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Welcome aboard.

[C]

The doors close on the train? The stations have no names? And the sunset sings something But I don't know what it is. Met her in the morning, left her in the eve? And tomorrow? What's tomorrow? What's the meaning of this? Me? We're back to being strangers? We're back to being strangers again? Your eyes that watch your mother? The hands that shape the clothes? And the moment lasts forever? Like a car crash in the snow? If you want something, you ask? If you don't, you will regret? And the thing you have not made? Is the thing you can't forget? You said it, baby? Don't ever stop? Don't ever stop? Don't ever stop dreaming? Take me home, my train? I hope we meet again someday? And in the meantime? Find an ending? Find a nothing?

[A]

Find a day?

[C]

We're back to being strangers? We're back to being strangers again?

[A]

Sa.