EPISODE 17: Cold Water and The Edge

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Strangers on a Bench" – EPISODE 17: Cold Water and The Edge

Introduction

In Episode 17 of "Strangers on a Bench," titled "Cold Water and The Edge," host Tom Rosenthal delves deep into the life of an anonymous guest whose multifaceted interests span beyond the ordinary. Over a compelling 20-minute conversation, Tom uncovers the guest's passions for early morning cold-water swimming, artistic endeavors, teaching, and profound reflections on modern societal challenges. This episode weaves together themes of perseverance, creativity, mental health, and the quest for personal freedom.

Guest Introduction

The episode opens with Tom approaching a stranger on a London park bench, introducing his unique podcast concept where he engages in deep conversations with anonymous individuals. The guest, whose identity remains concealed, shares insights into his favorite day of the week and his disciplined yet liberating weekend routines.

Saturday Mornings and Cold-Water Swimming

The guest reveals a deep-seated love for Saturdays, valuing them as days free from weekdays' obligations. “Saturday … it's a really great feeling” (01:02) he explains, appreciating the unstructured freedom it offers.

A significant portion of their discussion centers on the guest’s commitment to cold-water swimming. Waking up at 4:30 AM to swim introduces a unique blend of solitude and connection with nature. “I get up at 4:30” (00:57) he states, highlighting his dedication to this challenging activity. He recounts how he and a friend began swimming clandestinely during lockdown, embracing the serenity of dark, quiet mornings. “...we’re swimming in the dark. And then you get to see the moon and the stars and the silhouettes of the trees. It’s a different world, really” (02:09).

Artistic Pursuits and Teaching

Beyond swimming, the guest is an avid artist, particularly passionate about watercolor painting. “I’m trying to teach myself the technique” (02:59) he shares, discussing his journey of self-education in art and his experiments with color dynamics and the unpredictability of the medium.

Balancing his artistic pursuits, the guest is also a postgraduate-level teacher. This dual role offers him a platform to influence future generations while nurturing his creative spirit. His approach to teaching reflects his broader philosophy on education, which he elaborates on in the following section.

Critique of Standardized Education Systems

The guest offers a poignant critique of contemporary education, advocating for a shift from rote learning to fostering creativity and meaningful relationships. “I think kids should do music and art and develop relationships with the world and with each other and nature, rather than acquire knowledge and facts that they'll never need again in their life” (03:33) he asserts. He laments the denigration of the arts in academic settings, emphasizing their intrinsic value beyond mere amusement.

Parenting and Mental Health Reflections

As a parent of four grown children, the guest reflects on the challenges of ensuring their well-being amidst a tumultuous world. “The fact that they're all alive is actually quite an achievement” (04:25) he admits, revealing the emotional toll of witnessing friends and acquaintances struggle with mental health crises. The conversation deepens as he discusses the troubling trend of young men facing suicidal tendencies, attributing it to modern societal pressures and a sense of powerlessness against global issues. “It feels like a very challenging age that we live in” (06:16) he contemplates, linking it to the erosion of community and the isolating effects of social media.

Societal Challenges and the Erosion of Community

The guest delves into broader societal issues, critiquing the lack of genuine community connections in today’s world. He reflects on how modern challenges—politics, environmental concerns, economic disparities—contribute to a pervasive sense of instability and disillusionment. “Communities can be quite alienating as well, of course” (08:11) he notes, recognizing the complexities of fostering true connections in an increasingly disconnected society.

Support for Artists: Then and Now

A significant part of the conversation addresses the evolution of support systems for artists. The guest nostalgically recalls a time when the welfare state provided substantial support for creative individuals, making it feasible to pursue art as a livelihood. “What used to be possible is that you could squat, you could sign on the dole for quite a long time...” (10:52) he reminisces, contrasting it with the current landscape where such support has dwindled, making it arduous for artists to sustain themselves. He passionately advocates for the reinstatement of these support mechanisms, deeming affordable housing a fundamental right and criticizing the soaring housing costs that burden young people today.

Cold-Water Swimming and Embracing the Edge

Returning to his passion, the guest elaborates on the allure of cold-water swimming, describing it as a thrilling physiological experience that fosters a deeper connection with nature. “It’s thrilling on a kind of very physiological level” (14:25) he explains, highlighting how swimming in the dark under the stars transforms his perception of London.

This pursuit of pushing personal boundaries extends into other areas of his life, such as marathon running. “It’s all about the edge, in a sense” (16:24) he muses, drawing parallels between the physical limits he challenges in sports and the creative edges he explores in art. He emphasizes the importance of embracing failure and the unpredictable outcomes that come from stepping beyond comfort zones. “It’s never the same twice...You can find the edge inside” (20:02).

Creativity, Failure, and Continuous Growth

The guest’s approach to art is inherently experimental, often revisiting the same scenes to capture their ever-changing essence. “The painting’s never the same and you’re not” (20:02) he reflects, illustrating his commitment to growth and adaptation. He values the process over perfection, considering every attempt a learning experience regardless of the outcome. “They’re always failures. That’s what I’m saying. I’m not bothered” (19:33) he candidly shares, underscoring his belief that the act of creation itself is paramount.

Future Aspirations and Final Reflections

Looking ahead, the guest shares his excitement about an upcoming art residency in America, hoping it will provide the validation and integration his work seeks. “I think it's those professional... that's what I'm trying to do here” (18:23) he states, expressing optimism about the future and the potential for his art to find its rightful place in the world.

As the conversation winds down, the guest contemplates his future endeavors, including potentially leading a "gorilla swimming" group—a playful nod to his affinity for unconventional activities. “Gorilla swimming. Quite good fun, actually” (13:44) he remarks, hinting at his enduring quest for unique and fulfilling experiences.

Closing Thoughts and Poetic Reflection

The episode concludes with a poetic interlude voiced by an unidentified individual, reflecting on themes of connection, nature, and the unseen bonds that tie individuals together. This poetic addition enriches the episode, leaving listeners with a lingering sense of contemplation and appreciation for the nuanced conversations that unfold on a simple park bench.

Notable Quotes

• “I get up at 4:30.” (00:57)
• “...we’re swimming in the dark. And then you get to see the moon and the stars and the silhouettes of the trees. It’s a different world, really.” (02:09)
• “I think kids should do music and art and develop relationships with the world and with each other and nature, rather than acquire knowledge and facts that they'll never need again in their life.” (03:33)
• “The fact that they're all alive is actually quite an achievement.” (04:25)
• “It feels like a very challenging age that we live in.” (06:16)
• “What used to be possible is that you could squat, you could sign on the dole for quite a long time...” (10:52)
• “It’s thrilling on a kind of very physiological level.” (14:25)
• “It’s all about the edge, in a sense.” (16:24)
• “They’re always failures. That’s what I’m saying. I’m not bothered.” (19:33)
• “The painting’s never the same and you’re not.” (20:02)

Conclusion

Episode 17 of "Strangers on a Bench" offers a profound exploration of an individual's pursuit of passion, the challenges of modern life, and the enduring human spirit striving for connection and meaning. Through candid dialogue and introspective reflections, Tom Rosenthal facilitates a conversation that resonates with listeners, inspiring them to contemplate their own edges and the depths of their creative and personal journeys.

Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? What's your favorite day of the week?

[B]

That's an interesting question. Saturday. So I get up very early and go swimming most mornings.

[A]

How early are we talking?

[B]

I get up at 4:30.

[A]

That's quite early, isn't it?

[B]

So on a Saturday, I don't have to do that. And what I like about Saturdays is that you can have a day without obligation if you want to. Whereas in the week, there's work, there are obligations that you make to yourself or I make to myself as a kind of disciplined life. Then on Saturday I don't do that. And that's why I like Saturday. It's a really great feeling.

[A]

What's it like to wake up at 4:30? Out of choice?

[B]

Well, I've been swimming outside for a long time, and then in lockdown, I wanted to carry on swimming. So a friend and myself decided that we would go when it was dark, when nobody knew we were doing it. That's when we started illegally swimming.

[A]

Did you say legally or illegally?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

And I'm only saying that because this is anonymous.

[A]

It is, truly, because you haven't told me your name, so there's no way I can know it. No.

[B]

And it was really wonderful. So we just kept doing it. But we like to go when it's quiet. You leave the house and it's dark when you get there, so you're swimming in the dark. And then you get to see the moon and the stars and the silhouettes of the trees. And it's a different world, really. And so it's really wonderful. It's like living in London differently.

[A]

Tell me about the person you do it with. I'm intrigued.

[B]

She's a musician.

[A]

Okay. And you've become. This is a thing you do together similarly.

[B]

Yeah. And we. So I'm an artist. I don't. This is my hobby. I teach and I make other paintings.

[A]

So just. Just for the benefit of the tapes, when you say this is my hobby. You are currently doing watercolor painting as we speak.

[B]

Yeah. So I'm. I'm actually trying to teach myself the technique, but I'm also practicing what it's like to put paint down and to see how colours respond to each other the moment it all goes wrong. So it's quite interesting.

[A]

But yet you Are a teacher yourself?

[B]

I am at a postgraduate level.

[A]

Okay. I was just wondering, given that you're very pro. Teaching yourself, what you thought of other standardised forms of education.

[B]

I actually think kids should do music and art and develop relationships with the world and with each other and nature, rather than acquire knowledge and facts that they'll never need again in their life. So it annoys me that the arts are denigrated, really, in education, as if they are about amusement and enjoyment and as if they don't really teach you anything beyond that. I mean, I've got four kids, so I have some knowledge. They're all grown up.

[A]

You definitely do.

[B]

But maybe I'm naive because I don't live in the real world.

[A]

What have you. I mean, four children now, they kind of out the other end. What are you most pleased that you've done with them? Just don't be like, oh, crikey, that's.

[B]

A really hard question.

[A]

That is, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sorry. Is that too hard?

[B]

I'm not sure. I don't know if I think in those terms, actually, if I'm honest, the fact that they're all alive is actually quite an achievement, I would say.

[A]

For sure. Is there any particular reason you say that?

[B]

Well, because, you know, I've known a number of young people who have killed themselves and one very close friend whose son was a very close friend of my son. And so once that happens, it sort of puts a different perspective on things, really. Yeah.

[A]

What's that like to deal with as a. As a friend of someone? I mean, how. How do you get through that?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how people do get through that. I mean, the sad thing is that I know of about four or five young men. I haven't known them, but through friends of my children and extended, you know, group of friends who have killed themselves.

[A]

Can you. Can you pinpoint anything related to their gender there at all? I mean, you know, is this.

[B]

They were all boys. Yeah. Young men. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You know, what is it about being a young man?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Do you think this is a modern phenomenon? As in what? I mean, modern as in. Yeah. When you were saying 15, could you remember this being an issue?

[B]

No, I can't. I mean, who knows? But it does feel like a very challenging age that we live in. When you think of politics, the environment, the system that seems to suck money, which ends up in creating billionaires, and the idea that we are all powerless in the face of that that kind of a global kind of consciousness, it feels that's quite. I can't imagine that that was something that characterized life in the past where things were much more locally kind of coordinated. Now, I don't know. That might be just another version of how you lose yourself. You know, you can lose yourself locally as well as globally.

[A]

I wonder if there's more ways to lose yourself in. In today's world than there have been in previous ones.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

And there's less, you know, there is just less community naturally, you know, boring thing to say. But obviously social media is like a very kind of insular thing. It's not fundamentally. It's not connection, is it? And in an odd way, it's the opposite. I mean, that's something of the last 10 years which has happened. I mean, it's a convincing.

[B]

Communities can be quite alienating as well, of course. I just don't know. I think it's really difficult.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, completely. I mean, we could be on the bench a long time and not really figure it out.

[B]

I think if there was more education about, you know, which wasn't to do with facts and knowledge and competition and pressure, that was more poetic and about relationships, I think we'd be better armed to deal with these things because we'd respect ourselves and the world differently. And I'm sure that would help somehow. I'm sure it would.

[A]

Do you think maybe the people, or younger people don't get enough space to figure out who they are?

[B]

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. Now I am trying to give space to my kids for them to find out what they want to do. And so if. If to go back to your other question, you know, I. I phase, I could be proud of that.

[A]

Is it difficult to give your children space when you feel like maybe you want to intervene sometimes and go, oh, are you sure you. Do you want to do this or what? You know, like, how do you.

[B]

No, I haven't, actually, I don't.

[A]

I think you found that okay. You haven't trouble.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. I think it's partly because in my life I've tried to be an artist. I've tried to survive. I've tried to find a way of life that enables me to paint. And I was lucky because I had government support, in a way. Social housing, signing on the dole, all those things which artists and musicians of a certain generation used very productively, very creatively. You know, my kids don't have that, so how can you? How can I. I do think that to be Free to choose what you want to do as much as you can. How can. That's got to be the number one priority, really.

[A]

Can you describe just for people who are. If they're listening to this, who are younger. You said, you know, there was a time when the welfare state allowed you to be an artist.

[B]

Yeah, fully.

[A]

Can you just maybe describe that in, like, you know, if it helps people understand, like, what used to be possible?

[B]

Well, what used to be possible is that you could squat, you could sign on the dole for quite a long time, you could get housing benefit, you could maybe earn a bit of cash in that time. Those supports helped a lot of people to find their way. And they are people now existing in the. You know, as artists, as musicians and so on. So that seems to me like a really good use of public money to me. It's no good talking about this for young people because they'll just go, I wish it was still like that now. But the way things have changed have made it very difficult because there's no support there. Having a place to live and if you can't afford the rent, to have that paid for you is, I think, a fundamental right that's been taken away from people in this country. The system says housing has to be really expensive and you have to find the money for it. I mean, it's wrong to me. I just think it's absolutely appalling what's happened. Housing particularly. I think so, yeah. It's no good. It's not very helpful for young people. Sorry, young people. Sorry, young people. Sorry, young people.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Sorry, young people.

[A]

What would you. I mean, do you ever think, you know, if I was put in charge, this is how I would turn it around?

[B]

Oh, God. Well, I don't know. Do you? There are various things you can think.

[A]

Of and there's so many things they don't do.

[B]

Priorities are wrong, I think. I mean, yeah, it's silly talking about politics, really. Yeah, because it's. It's definitely the road to nowhere. I'm struggling here with the water in your. In my painting.

[A]

Not a general struggle with water.

[B]

No, it's. It's just the texture's wrong. It's not flat enough.

[A]

You know, you can blame me. Well, now I've got to try thoroughly put you off.

[B]

No, I do it. I mess it up anyway.

[A]

I feel better now. When you see a body of water, do you want to get in it?

[B]

But you know what? I think they're missing a trick here because they could have an outdoor swimming club, maybe I'll do a gorilla swim one day. Maybe I will.

[A]

This is your thing now. Let's do it in different places. The gorilla swimmer.

[B]

Gorilla swimming. Quite good fun, actually.

[A]

Would you like to be a kind of cult leader of gorilla swimming?

[B]

No, I'm not a leader. Definitely.

[A]

You're not either.

[B]

No, I know that I'm a more second in command type of person.

[A]

Maybe those are the true leaders, though.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

What is the. Try and talk me through, like, the allure of cold water swimming.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

What does it mean to you?

[B]

Oh, I can really bore on about that.

[A]

Well, let's give it a go. And I'll stop you if you guessed. If it gets boring.

[B]

It's thrilling on a kind of very physiological level. Apart from that, it is the relationship with nature that has grown in me since doing it. So watching the wildlife and the trees and the changing seasons and also the dawn and the different skies and the weather. Some mornings, well, it's beautiful. Most often it's cloudy. But even in that, the sky can be full of color. And because I swim with somebody when she's a musician, she opens my ears to the sounds and I think I open her eyes to the colors. It's a real privilege, actually.

[A]

Well, that wasn't boring at all.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

All too long.

[B]

Good. Okay.

[A]

How do people take a plunge in the full cold. I mean, how do you learn to get good at chucking yourself into really cold water?

[B]

Well, it's. Your body actually adjusts to the cold. This is to do with acclimatization. So you wouldn't jump in to cold water. You risk killing yourself by drowning, actually, because you hyperventilate. And then you can get hypothermia very quickly. So you don't do that. You start in April or you start. Or in the summer or when it's manageable. And apparently it takes about a year, really, for your body to really adjust to that. Yes. And it depends who you are. I'm the kind of person that pushes myself to the limit. So I have become almost hypothermic and I have to watch that a bit. Whereas some people, they're just happy to do that tiny bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they don't want to feel the edge, you know, and it's that edge that.

[A]

Do you do this at other parts of your life?

[B]

I do marathon running, yeah.

[A]

Okay, so you like the edge?

[B]

I like the edge, yeah. It's all about the edge, in a sense. It's all about the edge. Making art, you know, you gotta. This is true, you know, it's that edge where things happen. It's the edge where things go from something you intended maybe, or something that you could decide upon. And then when something happens that works, but you didn't intended, you couldn't see it. It was like kind of instinctive, intuitive world appears. That's kind of what the stake is always. So what I'm doing my watercolors, I'm trying to find a way of painting them that leaves things open enough for something to come in and one day it will. That's really what I'm trying to do here.

[A]

What would you say to, what would you say to, you know, if someone were to be listening to this and being a kind of like. Well, I'm not the kind of person to take things to the edge of stuff and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What would you say? What? What would you say? The benefits of trying because before we'd always pass.

[B]

It's where it's newness, isn't it? It's about the new. Not just a different version of something, but because it's about the future as well, isn't it? In a way that suddenly the world's changed and maybe you can hope in a different way because you're not just following the patterns and the knowledge that you already have. Because the world is always renewing itself really, isn't it? It's in flux, but we tend to fix it all the time into the things that we know we want to do or ideas about who we are and what we want. And then suddenly something else comes into play and. Oh, it's not actually like that. Well, maybe I've got to think differently.

[A]

You mentioned the future.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is your future like? Think about your future.

[B]

I like running and swimming and making art more and more and that's what I want to do more and more. Yeah, that, that's kind of.

[A]

Are you a grandparent?

[B]

No, unfortunately not. That's what I'd like as well to, to happen.

[A]

What kind of grandparent? Touchwood, we're touching it now. What kind of grandparent would you be?

[B]

I, I, I would like to be a really fun, interesting, exciting granny. Think that's possible?

[A]

Yeah, definitely. With what you've said, you, you know, you generally do.

[B]

I'm not going to do any more to that painting because if I do any more, it's pointless.

[A]

You could, you can remember it as the one that you did. Attempted to answer lots of questions at the same time. Could have been a great. What would happen if this is the best one you'd ever done?

[B]

No, no, they're always failures. That's what I'm saying. I'm not bothered.

[A]

Good to fail.

[B]

Yeah. It's just doing it is the most important thing.

[A]

Totally agree.

[B]

And I think I'll come back again, actually.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because what's nice is the light on the trees.

[A]

It is lovely, actually.

[B]

And I do have a habit of painting the same scene over and over again, you know.

[A]

Not very edgy of you.

[B]

Well, no, you see, that's a misunderstanding.

[A]

Because, you see, it's never the same twice.

[B]

It's never the same twice. The painting's never the same and you're not. And you can find the edge inside. Whereas if you're always on the outside, you know, with a new scene or something, sometimes you never can find it. I don't know.

[A]

I'm going to ask you. Can you think of something you do just as part of your daily routine, apart from your 4:30 swims?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think no one else does? Well, only it feel like it's very much something that only you would do. Is that with me?

[B]

Give me an example. What do you do then? What do you do that you think in your daily life nobody else does?

[A]

Sometimes this is a bit embarrassing. Sometimes I say before I go to bed, I say, good night, world. I also sometimes play imaginary cricket or table tennis and I see balls coming towards me and I hit them away. So this kind of thing, I mean, this is. I mean, obviously I don't really.

[B]

I'm too boring.

[A]

Let's try this for Valstebant. If I say these words to you, greatest day of your life.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[A]

Oh, my God. He said the words. Do you think you could try and muster an answer?

[B]

No.

[A]

How about second greater? Save my life. I don't want to have to do worse. Let's not do worse.

[B]

I think obviously it's got to be. People say, having kids, don't they? But.

[A]

Yeah, but let's not do that.

[B]

I don't. I don't.

[A]

You've had too many. You've had too many.

[B]

It's so. It. It's so dramatic. It's so encompassing.

[A]

You can't really take it in, I suppose.

[B]

You can't take it.

[A]

Yeah. It's a blur.

[B]

And it's so physical.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's so incredibly mentally bonkers.

[A]

It's kind of other. Very other, isn't it?

[B]

Very other. Yeah.

[A]

So let's rule those out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's next.

[B]

Yeah. I remember I got accepted onto an art workshop in America. And I remember being there thinking, oh, this is amazing because it felt like I'd had my work fully appreciated, and I was. I was going to. This is a long time ago. I thought, oh, this is going to be it. I'm going to, you know, the start of something. It felt as if I'd been kind of vindicated. I'd been. I was being supported. That was great. And I am going on another. I have got accepted on another sort of residency next year. And when that happens, I'm imagining I'll feel absolutely wonderful when I'm there. So I think it's those professional. I think, because you struggle. I do, anyway. I'm very committed to what I do, but I don't really get any success, really. And so I think that's hard because it's hard financially, obviously, but it's hard because what I do feel so important and it's not important to anybody else. And that's hard. You know, Find that hard, really. That's why success can be important, not just in terms of sort of money or status, but just because then your work is integrated into the world. It has its place in the world. I think that's kind of what I'd hope for.

[A]

Well, I hope this residency goes great.

[B]

Yeah, it's going to be great.

[A]

Yeah, Fantastic.

[B]

Fully great.

[A]

Wonderful.

[B]

Yeah, it really will.

[A]

Okay, last question for you. What are you going to do next today? Either today or just generally, I'm going.

[B]

To prepare for my residency, which involves certain things on a practical level, but also in terms of a certain mindset for going back into the studio. So that's what I'm going to do next. But I'm kind of doing that already. So is that next or is it.

[A]

Well, it's. Yeah, yeah, that's next enough.

[B]

But next I might go and find another view. I don't know. I might go home. I've got to do something with my son, actually, so maybe. Maybe I'll go and do that. See, it's lovely painting a lake, because you look at it and it's very interesting, you know, it's still amazing.

[C]

There's a world not too far on the edge after dark Orange glow Silver lines between times Find me there with my friend and the heavy things that never end Hear the birds and don't forget to breathe why can't they see they faced the wrong way Come break the rules Dangerous fools in pain Lies to truth and beauty too There's a world not too far on the edge of the dark Orange glow Silver lights between times.