EPISODE 34: Living on Borrowed Time

Summary

Podcast Summary: Strangers on a Bench – EPISODE 34: Living on Borrowed Time

Release Date: May 5, 2025 | Host: Tom Rosenthal

In Episode 34 of Strangers on a Bench, host Tom Rosenthal engages in a profound and heartfelt conversation with David, a retired psychotherapist. This episode, titled "Living on Borrowed Time," delves deep into David's personal and professional life, exploring themes of health, retirement, psychotherapy, family, and mindfulness. Through candid dialogue, David shares his journey of overcoming a severe health crisis, his reflections on his therapeutic practice, and his approach to meditation and personal growth.

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David’s Ideal Sunday and Life After Retirement

The episode begins with Tom inviting David to share his favorite day of the week and his ideal Sunday routine. David describes a serene and fulfilling day spent with his wife, enjoying breakfast, walking around the heath, visiting his children, and ending the day with dinner and classical music.

David (00:46): "Quite like Sunday, because there's no Guardian newspaper and I can just have an easy morning and come to the day slowly and gradually."

He reflects on how his Sundays have evolved since retiring due to health issues, highlighting the tranquility and simplicity that now define his weekends.

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A Sudden Health Crisis: Cushing’s Disease

David recounts the abrupt end of his psychotherapy practice following a sudden illness that led to a six-month hospitalization. He was diagnosed with Cushing's disease, a condition that dramatically affected his physical and mental health.

David (02:09): "I was 80 now and it. It. It's still a shock. Yeah, it took quite a lot of adjusting..."

David shares the emotional turmoil of leaving his practice and the impact it had on both him and his patients.

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The Struggle and Recovery

During his hospital stay, David experienced severe physiological and psychological challenges. He describes moments of despair and the critical interventions that saved his life, emphasizing his gratitude for his recovery.

David (03:07): "I nearly died, really."

He discusses the difficulty of adjusting to retirement unexpectedly and the ongoing feeling of living "on borrowed time."

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Coping Mechanisms: Meditation and Gratitude

David credits his Tibetan Buddhist practices—meditation and mantras—as pivotal in his recovery and ongoing mental stability. He also highlights the importance of gratitude, especially after his discharge from the hospital, where his family's support played a crucial role.

David (05:24): "But I follow a Tibetan Buddhist path, so my own meditation and my own mantras and things, that was enormously helpful during that time."

He reminisces about the moment he returned home, surrounded by his family, which reinforced his appreciation for life.

David (07:48): "It was like just such gratitude to be alive."

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Professional Life: Psychotherapy and Patient Relationships

David delves into his career as a psychotherapist, discussing the deep relationships formed with long-term patients and the emotional complexities of ending these relationships. He emphasizes the delicate balance required in therapy between challenging and supporting patients.

David (16:45): "You have to keep rethinking that and realizing that very often you don't know."

He reflects on the ethical responsibilities of a therapist and the continuous learning involved in avoiding the pitfalls of assuming the role of the "one who knows."

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Challenges and Mistakes in Therapy

The conversation turns to the inevitable mistakes therapists make, particularly in interpreting patients' emotions and experiences. David admits to numerous errors and the importance of active listening and patience in the therapeutic process.

David (19:18): "Trying to sort of read into something that wasn't accurate and having to re-establish in myself and listen again..."

He acknowledges the emotional toll that difficult sessions, especially with suicidal patients, can have on a therapist.

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Personal Reflections: Death and Family Losses

David shares poignant memories of losing his parents, particularly his father, who struggled with polio-induced disabilities. He reflects on the complex emotions surrounding his father's lack of expressed affection and how it shaped his relationships and personal development.

David (31:18): "He doesn't love me, you know."

He recounts the peaceful and intimate moments with his mother during her final days, highlighting the terror and beauty of witnessing death.

David (25:55): "That moment with my mother... is terrifying. But it's also terribly touching."

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Meditation and Mindfulness Practices

The discussion shifts to David's meditation practices, where he elucidates his mindfulness techniques aimed at grounding himself in reality amidst a chaotic world. He underscores the significance of breath as a tool to quiet the mind and maintain mental equilibrium.

David (13:41): "It's like your breath is the way to sort of quieten your mind."

He advocates for the respect of silence and stillness, drawing parallels to the pauses in music that hold as much power as the notes themselves.

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Life After Therapy: Seeking Purpose

In the latter part of the conversation, David contemplates his purpose post-retirement from psychotherapy. He expresses a desire to continue meditating and being present for his family, particularly his grandchild, while grappling with the question of his path forward without a professional framework.

David (23:40): "What I want to do as much as possible is to meditate more often and be ready for whatever is going to happen."

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Conclusion: Embracing the Present and Future

As the episode closes, David shares light-hearted moments about his daily life, including cooking a vegetable curry, showcasing his ability to find joy in simple activities. The conversation transitions smoothly from deep philosophical discussions to the mundane aspects of life, illustrating the balance David seeks between introspection and everyday living.

David (36:23): "I'm going to go home and cook a vegetable curry, which I looked up this morning."

Tom and David part on warm notes, reflecting mutual respect and appreciation for the shared vulnerabilities discussed throughout the episode.

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Notable Quotes:

• David (00:46): "Quite like Sunday, because there's no Guardian newspaper and I can just have an easy morning and come to the day slowly and gradually."

• David (05:24): "But I follow a Tibetan Buddhist path, so my own meditation and my own mantras and things, that was enormously helpful during that time."

• David (19:18): "Trying to sort of read into something that wasn't accurate and having to re-establish in myself and listen again..."

• David (25:55): "That moment with my mother... is terrifying. But it's also terribly touching."

• David (13:41): "It's like your breath is the way to sort of quieten your mind."

• David (36:23): "I'm going to go home and cook a vegetable curry, which I looked up this morning."

Closing Thoughts:

"Living on Borrowed Time" is a compelling episode that offers listeners an intimate glimpse into David's resilience and wisdom. Through his experiences, David imparts valuable lessons on coping with unexpected life changes, the essence of meaningful relationships, and the pursuit of inner peace. Tom Rosenthal masterfully facilitates a conversation that is both introspective and universally relatable, making this episode a standout in the Strangers on a Bench series.

Transcript

[Tom]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. What's your favorite day of the week?

[David]

Quite like Sunday, because there's no Guardian newspaper and I can just have an easy morning and come to the day slowly and gradually.

[Tom]

So what's your. If you can take me in as much detail as you feel comfortable with. You know, your ideal Sunday.

[David]

Well, my wife and I. I'm retired, but she still works, so we don't work on Sundays. And if it's a day like this, we might go and have a nice breakfast or something or just a nice coffee somewhere. She can't walk very far, so I often take off and walk around the heath. I walk here almost every day. And then we may go and see my daughter or my son, who live not far away. And then in the evening, make a nice dinner together and in the evening, often watch tv, I'm sorry, sad to say. And I also listen to a lot of music. That's one of my main ways of just being alive, as it were. Classical music. Wonderful.

[Tom]

It sounds like a very, very pleasant day. Is it always, you know, for how long would you have given this answer and what would I say your answer had been, say, 50 years ago?

[David]

Well, when the children were younger, obviously it would be a more active day. And now I retired a couple of years ago because I was ill and I had to give up a psychotherapy practice that was fairly full, and it was very sudden and it was a big shock to me and a shock to all the patients as well. So that kind of put me into a whole new mode of living, really, called retirement, which I wasn't quite ready for. Although I'm. I'm 80 now and I. It. It's still a shock. Yeah, it took quite a lot of adjusting, but when it comes to weather like this now, just being able to slowly, freely walk around the heath and take it in is. Is just so beautiful. Such a privilege, you know? Yeah.

[Tom]

Did you know that it was your last day of work when it was your last day?

[David]

Yeah, because I was going to hospital. I was. It was pretty urgent and then I nearly died, really.

[Tom]

But did you see the light?

[David]

Well, no, not at that point. They're all three just took over and managed to sort of bring me back. And now I'm quite stable, so it's good. I feel Very grateful to be alive and have a reasonably healthy body.

[Tom]

So that last day of work, can you take me through what you remember of it?

[David]

I think it was knowing that I was going to have to stop with these particular people, all of them, and I had to say that I would be having a break and that I couldn't say when I would be back. That was pretty sad. And they were all a bit shocked and surprised. And I remember at the end of the day feeling that I had, you know, made a big change in my life. And then I got some quite urgent clinical problems that put me into the Royal Free for six months. So that was experience. Six months? Yeah.

[Tom]

That's a long time, isn't it?

[David]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Looking back on that time, what are your kind of abiding memories?

[David]

Terrible, terrible, abiding memories. Really, really difficult because my levels of cortisol suddenly went away, up to almost deathly levels. And that causes your system to go kind of crazy. I went a bit bonkers, really, and everything was in crisis and they didn't quite know what it was. It's called Cushing's disease, but they misdiagnosed it a little bit. At first it was difficult, but then when they at last found medication that sort of brought it into a level, it stayed like that now for two years. But I still feel slightly. I'm on borrowed time, that kind of feeling. But I mean, I think that is getting older as well. Yeah.

[Tom]

During those six months, how did you keep going? Did you ever have to have a talk with yourself?

[David]

Yeah, yeah, I certainly did. When my mind was a little bit better, it was very full of kind of fantasy and I was not really waking up properly. I was half asleep a lot of the time. But then when I began to calm down. But I follow a Tibetan Buddhist path, so my own meditation and my own mantras and things, that was enormously helpful during that time. But it was the night times that were so lonely, you know, because I was in a room on my own because I was so ill. But I had to learn to deal with that.

[Tom]

Did you ever feel like you were gonna die?

[David]

Yeah.

[Tom]

You had that. And what. And what were your kind of, you know.

[David]

Well, I said to my wife, I think we should arrange a visit to Switzerland. You know, I actually wanted to die. It felt so awful. But she said, no way are we doing that. So I managed to come away from that and I don't have those feelings anymore. But it did feel like it was. It was a crisis in my whole system, you know, my whole body it was an unusual thing, you know, it was a bit of a rare case. That's what the endocrinology staff at Rollfri say.

[Tom]

Did you form any relationships with kind of particular nurses, particular people?

[David]

Yeah. Well, no. There was a particular endocrinologist consultant that I form particularly a kind of closeness to and still I feel very held by him.

[Tom]

Is there any way of keeping in touch or is that.

[David]

Yes, yes, yes. Because they see me every few months and I ask to see him and sometimes I can.

[Tom]

How do you go about beginning to express gratitude to someone like that?

[David]

Oh, I just hug him when I see him.

[Tom]

Oh, that's lovely.

[David]

Just a long old hug and he hugs me. It's very. It was very warm. There is a contact with. Between us. And he was very kind to my wife when I was away because she was in a terrible state. She's elderly as well and she had to work at the same time. So, anyway, these are the things that happen in life, aren't they?

[Tom]

When you came out of hospital.

[David]

Yeah.

[Tom]

To what extent did things feel new to you?

[David]

It was like just such gratitude to be alive. And the first moment I came back and my son and daughter and my wife were all there with a wonderful breakfast, that was the most amazing thing. It was January 6th, two years ago, and I came back and we just sat at the kitchen table together and held hands and I just couldn't believe that they'd let me go from the wrong free. It's been a lifesaver for me, that hospital.

[Tom]

It also saved my life.

[David]

Did it?

[Tom]

I came very close to dying from undiagnosed at that time. Type 1 diabetes. I don't know how much you know about it.

[David]

Type one? Yeah. And you can die quite quickly.

[Tom]

Yeah. So I really got to a point where I wasn't that far away from that and I just felt this sensation of my body shutting down. I went to see a GP and they quickly did a finger prick test and they're like, oh, you know, unless you've had just the most kind of crazy breakfast, you've got diabetes.

[David]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And then they're like, you've just got to go straight to ane now. And I was kind of like, oh, really? Ne. Okay, fine. You know, I just didn't think much of it.

[David]

No.

[Tom]

And then when I got in there, as soon as I said the words, they just rushed me. Straight into the rushy bit. Yeah. Into the emergency.

[David]

They didn't let you?

[Tom]

I wasn't waiting for a second.

[David]

No.

[Tom]

And that's when I Was like, oh.

[David]

No, it's a little bit like me. That's very similar. Yeah.

[Tom]

Anyway. Yeah, so we were both there, both safe, by the same hospital.

[David]

And did you have to stay in for a while?

[Tom]

I stayed in for about.

[David]

Maybe about a week.

[Tom]

Four or five days. Yeah.

[David]

Four or five days, yeah.

[Tom]

And I left too early. I was just. I walked out and I refused to be picked up by anybody. It's that classic kind of denial.

[David]

Yeah. You didn't.

[Tom]

I was like, no, this isn't me. I'm just gonna stride out of this hospital and whatever. My feet felt so hot, I had to take off my. I was wobbling. I mean, I was just. I was an absolute idiot. And then I was so wobbly, I had to go back in a while. They took me back in.

[David]

That's not funny.

[Tom]

Yeah, I know, but it's kind of. It's.

[David]

You needed to get back.

[Tom]

But it was so silly of me. You know, you look back and you're. What an idiot. You know? No, you're young. Yeah.

[David]

I mean, you know, it's just a big responsibility having to get used to that injecting routine and so on.

[Tom]

But also, I do have that feeling that you have now about borrowed time.

[David]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Because I think I play an active part, such a very active part in keeping myself alive every day.

[David]

Yeah.

[Tom]

If you forgot, you just die. So you're keeping yourself going. It's like you're playing the role of a body part.

[David]

Yeah.

[Tom]

So that kind of.

[David]

How old are you now? About 40. Oh, 30.

[Tom]

No.

[David]

Are you over 40?

[Tom]

I am 38.

[David]

38, yeah. I was thinking.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[David]

Okay. Yeah. You've seen about that.

[Tom]

Oh, that's perfect.

[David]

I'm happy with it. Yeah. Because I've been through that with my son. He's 50, and I know the 40s, you know, you're coming up to the 40s.

[Tom]

What should I. What should I. What should I expect? What are your 40s like?

[David]

My 40s? Quite amazing.

[Tom]

Oh, really? Quite amazing, yeah.

[David]

Because I was working as a teacher and I changed over, trained as a psychotherapist and started to work with patients and have my own analysis and all that. So these were big moments, big turning points, you know, it's often a very.

[Tom]

Powerful time of change, you know, I'm excited now.

[David]

What.

[Tom]

Why did you. What was your kind of. So you were teaching in a school?

[David]

No, in a college. And I was sick of that now, and I wanted.

[Tom]

Why did you get sick of it?

[David]

Because, you know, I was working with language and linguistic, and it came down to being a bit automatic. And I was interested in working with people, always have been. And so I knew I needed my own therapy first. But what I'm beginning to realize more and more with all this world geopolitical unrest of the most extreme and confusing condition is the importance of coming back and oneself to being grounded in some sort of reality. That's not all just about the world, you know, but it's about being alive and being in touch with what's real in me. And to do that, I've got to meditate quietly on a regular basis so that I can get a little bit away from words and especially phones and messages from the phone and so on. And once I've really made the effort to do that, I can come into a space that feels more balanced and in touch with something deeper. It's so easy to get pulled into things like Instagram. That's just endless pictures and endless speaking. I think endless speaking is such a trap because words just don't really take us anywhere, you know, We've got to come back to a certain respect for silence and. And stillness. Just like they say in music, the silence between the notes is as powerful as the notes themselves, you know.

[Tom]

So when you're kind of. Yeah, I mean, when you're meditating, how are you starting? And how are you. What are you saying to yourself as you start?

[David]

Well, I mean, I just use a classical mindfulness sort of approach. So I just sit with a straight back. I usually put my hands on my knees now and then I close my eyes often to get started. And then, as I was taught and advised, it's quite good to open your eyes again, but not look around, just keep them at a kind of a slight angle. And just sort of work with one's breathing, you know, keeping it regular, coming back to that as a sort of grounding space, you know, your breath is the way to sort of quieten your mind. And your mind, of course, behaves like a monkey, as it's supposed to do. And it'll go off all over the place. Nothing wrong with that. And then gently, you return again to the breath and to the breathing and to one's energy right through the body, every part of the body, from the legs right up through to the head. And then again, you'll find your mind has gone off on whatever it is, your holiday or your lunch or whatever. And then again, gently, just come back to your breath. Breath is the. Is the thing that is most real about us in many ways, not all the stuff that goes on in our mind, you know, because that's endless. Yeah, yeah.

[Tom]

We jumped off topic. You're about to tell me about what you fell up with, teaching and going.

[David]

Into psychotherapy and realizing that I needed to go on a journey. I've always been interested in sort of psychological things.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[David]

So that was also part of the reason why I thought an analysis of my own would be very important. Because you've got to begin with that you can't really help people unless you've worked on some of your own stuff. You know what I mean?

[Tom]

In doing that, what did you learn and what surprised you about what you learned about yourself in that process?

[David]

Well, I learned about my capacity to be too forward, not quiet enough, and able to listen and wait, you know, impatient and a bit sort of impetuous, kind of. And I. I think one of the things you have to learn in that work is the importance of listening and waiting, letting something emerge. But all that stopped now. So it is a strange new thing for me because I have this knowledge and kind of understanding in myself. And I have to be careful not to therapize people, because that's not healthy.

[Tom]

There's ways to do it in the gentle ways, I suppose.

[David]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom]

And the relationships you built up with your patients.

[David]

Yeah, I call them patients. Yeah. Clients or patients. Yeah.

[Tom]

How long were some of them with you? I mean, what's the longest?

[David]

Sometimes six, seven years or more? There was some 10, 11 years.

[Tom]

That's a long time. I mean, how difficult is that to end after that amount of time? You've seen so much arc in their lives.

[David]

You have. That's right.

[Tom]

And so how do you. Is it very complicated saying goodbye? Well, I think also. Do you get a chance to say goodbye?

[David]

Well, they always say in psychotherapy there are bilateral endings and there are unilateral endings. Unilateral endings is when the patient says, I've had enough. Bye, bye, which sometimes happens. Or the therapist can kind of, you know, bring it up and work towards an ending. But a sort of bilateral ending is where there's a sort of gradual negotiation and a kind of sense that maybe at the end of the summer or something like that, we might feel that it's time to. And they have to enter into that as well, you know.

[Tom]

Can you think of the most kind of dramatic session that you've had with a patient?

[David]

I don't know whether I should talk about that, actually. I think that might be a little bit delicate.

[Tom]

But they wouldn't. I mean, they would. As long as you say It's, I.

[David]

Think the most dramatic things happen around suicidal sort of people. I think that's on a couple of occasions that's been difficult. When someone's right on the edge and you don't know when they leave, if they're going to come back. That is very scary. So it's got to wait quietly.

[Tom]

But in that moment, what do you say to them?

[David]

Well, you just have to work with what they bring. That's the important thing. And often they're just feeling very, very down. And that's something you just have to stay with. And that can be quite painful when it leaves something with you, you know, which you think about them in the week and wonder how they are and so on. And then there they are the next week. Gradually that chapter sort of closes and so on. And there's usually something going on in their lives that once they begin to talk about, that helps.

[Tom]

Can you think back to any times when you feel like you've made a mistake, approached something the wrong way?

[David]

Countless times, yeah, countless times.

[Tom]

What was your mistake that you most often made?

[David]

Well, trying to sort of read into something that wasn't accurate and having to re. Establish in myself and listen again and see what the real position for the patient is. It's a very sensitive job. You know, you're always on a slight tightrope because that's where you do the work. There's got to be a little bit of challenge and a little bit of holding. It's all there together.

[Tom]

You know, I think what's nice in the last. I don't know, I'm gonna say 10 years.

[David]

Yeah.

[Tom]

There's been a kind of an openness in talking about having therapy. I talk to people on these benches and, yeah. And they say, yeah, you know, I'm getting therapy about this. And this is meant this, you know, as if it was never, you know, they went for pine conversation. It is more acceptable, which is really nice, I think, and encouraging. Other Now I'm interested. I mean, you're the first person I've had from the other side. First actual therapist. What do people not know about life as a therapist? What's kind of invisible to the lay person out there?

[David]

I mean, life as a therapist. There's a French psychoanalyst called Lacan, you've probably heard of him. And he talks about the one who knows. And that's always a big sort of pitfall all the time, that the therapist is the one who knows and the patient is the one seeking, seeking the knowledge of the therapist. You have to Keep rethinking that and realizing that very often you don't know. You absolutely don't know what's happening. And sometimes you have to just stay with that because often the patient's the one who knows, and you have to get out the way and let that knowledge begin to grow and foster it, you know. But I think that's often the biggest mistake and it's disappointing for the patient at first sometimes when you don't know everything and you can't just give them answers.

[Tom]

Are some of these lives now still floating around in your head? You would have been told so many things and so many things shared with you.

[David]

I know, but that's a great privilege.

[Tom]

Yeah. But you sometimes just. Are you sometimes walking around and go, oh, I remember.

[David]

I do wonder what happened to all of them, actually, in the end, I think there was only about 12 or 14 people altogether. I do long, in a way to know how they are and to be able to say to them, sorry kind of thing.

[Tom]

I'm sure they would understand.

[David]

Yeah. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah.

[Tom]

I mean, can you not find them?

[David]

No, I don't think it's appropriate, really, to go chasing after them because they've moved on in their lives.

[Tom]

Running down the street.

[David]

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, hey, hey.

[Tom]

I need closure.

[David]

I mean, sometimes I do. I haven't, actually. Although a lot of them live in the area, you know, Strangely enough, I haven't bumped into them, but it would be beautiful. I would be very warm and nice to them. They were all, in their own ways, just struggling and professionally and all that sort of thing, you know, I think the question for me now is why am I here? You know, if I'm not here to be available to other people professionally, which can also be a way of maybe not looking at one's own sort of existence, as it were, you know, Then what is my path now?

[Tom]

Why are you here?

[David]

You know, that is a very deep question.

[Tom]

Can you think of anything? I mean, when do you think, why am I here? What's your kind of wildest thought that comes with your hair? Wildest thought, you think, oh, you know, maybe I could actually do this, or maybe I could. I could be X and X, you know.

[David]

Not really. I think what I want to do as much as possible is to meditate more often and be ready for. For whatever is going to happen, you know, because one doesn't know. There's all sorts of encounters happen within the family, you know, my grandchild and all that sort of stuff. And I think one needs a sort of place to think.

[Tom]

So I think you could be a voice for the. For the meditation. You know, I'd put your tape on. Maybe I'll just use. I've got a tape now. Could just use what you did earlier. Put it. Put it on repeat. What's it like being a grandparent?

[David]

Oh, it's Lovely, lovely. He's 13 now. Just the other day. He's going through so much teenage stuff at the moment. Really, really quite strong emotional kind of stuff, but.

[Tom]

Did you try and say anything?

[David]

I don't. His mother's psychotherapist.

[Tom]

Oh, wow, okay. God.

[David]

I'll say anything more about that. I won't say anything more about that. That would be very indiscreet. You don't have any psychotherapists in the family?

[Tom]

No, I don't. None.

[David]

Although Mum and Dad's still alive.

[Tom]

My mother is. My father isn't.

[David]

Ah, your father died.

[Tom]

Yeah. Yeah, that was. That was. That was. That was a time.

[David]

Sad time.

[Tom]

Yeah. But actually, I. I think. I mean, in many ways the whole thing's quite invigorating. You know, when you. When you watch someone die. I don't know, I think I. I probably live more fully since that.

[David]

You watched him. Were you around when he died? Were you there?

[Tom]

Oh, I was there. I was in the room.

[David]

That's quite a big moment, isn't it?

[Tom]

It is a big moment, but also a huge. A huge. What's the word? Is honor a word? A huge privilege.

[David]

I know. I found that with my parents. Balls. Yeah.

[Tom]

And I think to be there at the end is. I mean, what?

[David]

Something you'll never.

[Tom]

Yeah, completely. We're watching life.

[David]

Yeah. You know, it's quite a gentle kind of moment, but it's still got that awful feeling of that's it, there's no way back, you know, which is also frightening. It's a mixture, isn't it? Yeah.

[Tom]

What do you remember of your parents die?

[David]

Well, my mother, I. I came up to Scotland and she'd had cancer for some time and the macmillan nurse said, look, I think you should come up. So I arrived on the train very early in the morning and I walked to the house and I could just feel in the air that she was about to go. And I just lay on the bed with my arm around her until she died. And it was very, very beautiful and peaceful and she waited almost for me to get there. I think she was close to me. But that moment with my mother, when the breath just stops and they're still there and they're still warm. Still in your arms, but they've gone. That is terrifying. But it's also terribly touching. Gives you a feeling of the whole of humanity, you know, of birth and death and the links between the two, you know.

[Tom]

Completely. Yeah. I was struck by that exact feeling. To watch spirits kind of fly. And then oddly enough, actually after I saw that there were other people in the room as well, people kind of hung around and I just wanted to get out of there. I didn't. Almost like, you know, he's gone, that's not him anymore. That's just a lump of flesh, there's nothing there. And I just went out. I didn't even. I'm not sure I went back in the room. And also these are the most kind of, you know, you mentioned you're kind of hugging your mum.

[David]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And those kind of. If you think they're in one's life, it's so rare to have that kind of intimate moment with someone, you know, how often do you just sit with someone hugging them for five hours or just literally to be right next to them or holding their hand for an entire day or. There are so many potentially incredible moments surrounding death, but I felt that those are such magical things that. Stay with one. Tell me about your childhood. Let's imagine a typical Sunday as a. I don't know, let's pick an age, 10 year old. What would that look like?

[David]

Well, I was the son of a Church of Scotland clergyman.

[Tom]

Oh, interesting.

[David]

So I was in Glasgow and my parents went to church on Sundays. My mother was a very deep Christian as well, into healing and things like that. So I would get dressed up and we toppled up the road to the local church. I went to the Sunday school, which I didn't like much and I didn't behave very well. And then we would come home and we would have a nice big meal together. And then Sunday afternoons, very often I went to play with some friends around the corner. A big family. I used to go and play board games and all that or my cousins would come and we had a big old fashioned flat in Glasgow. So it was very much about family life at that point. My father, when I was three, he contracted polio very badly. He had two sticks and he had calipers and things. But he was always quite disabled. So that was quite difficult for me growing up because I didn't think he was kind of normal. He wasn't an ordinary physical dad like the others. And so that was part of my childhood that was a little bit painful.

[Tom]

Did you have to, you know, little Boys need that physicality.

[David]

I know.

[Tom]

Where did you find it if you didn't find it in him?

[David]

No, I suppose I went looking for other figures, kind of, in a way, and that went right through my life, in a sense. And the need for male company, you know, the importance of that and the closeness of it. I think that was started from the loss of him at that age because he. In those days, it was quite early with polio, and they didn't quite know. They kept him in hospital a long time, and I got close to my mother, and then when he came back, I didn't want him there because I just wanted to be closer to my mother.

[Tom]

I suppose he got in the way of you and your mother.

[David]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Did you find a way before he died or, you know, how did you know was there? What age did you kind of come round to him?

[David]

After my mother died, I had 10 more years.

[Tom]

Okay. Okay.

[David]

And I never wanted that, you see. I wanted him out the way. And I could spend the last years with my mother, but that does happen.

[Tom]

That's life, isn't it?

[David]

So I got much closer to him.

[Tom]

Okay.

[David]

You know.

[Tom]

Yeah. So in a way, that's actually kind of a blessing.

[David]

Yeah, it was. It was because I really could see how he loved me in a very different kind of way. And in fact, he was. He was generous, thoughtful man, really. And towards the end, I would kind of bathe him and things like that. And that was very close and very physical and really helped me to sort of heal something about whether he loved me or not, you know, because that was always my great thing. He doesn't. He doesn't love me, you know.

[Tom]

Did he tell you he loved you?

[David]

No, he told me he didn't love me. He was very. He was very perverse like that, you know. If you said to him, do you love me, dad? He would say no, because he hated any sentimental thing. He was very, very practical, you know, that kind of person, but a good man.

[Tom]

Do you find that because your father didn't say that he loved you, have you kind of tried to go the opposite way or if you find yourself.

[David]

I think so, maybe. I think that was part of a kind of rebellion. Yeah. And I was an actor, you see, originally, and.

[Tom]

Oh, an actor that's gone from nowhere.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tom]

You're an actor?

[David]

I was. I mean, I worked in Scotland for a number of years and.

[Tom]

On the stage.

[David]

Yeah, a little bit on television. But I wanted to be a director, but it didn't kind of work out. And then I Went to America and did a degree in English and drama. So I directed plays there. That was a huge, huge moment of freedom for me to get away from Scotland.

[Tom]

Which. Yeah, which. Which part of America?

[David]

In Georgia. The University of Georgia.

[Tom]

When you look upon that time, what did you find?

[David]

Well, what was the first awakening? I was able to have my first girlfriend because I wasn't with my parents. You know, I had my own place and I had big love affair there and that was extraordinary.

[Tom]

Why was this love love affair?

[David]

Because I. I found. I found America very. Being on a campus and you know, being able to have a list friends with the tutors and the. The faculty, as they called it, as well as other students. And I was from Scotland, so they thought that was very interesting. And it was actually at the time when Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy sort of were killed and the university had just been integrated. And it was a very tricky period with the black white issues in the Deep South.

[Tom]

How did that. I mean to. That. What was your kind of memory of being there at that time, being.

[David]

Being feeling very white and realizing that it wasn't the same as being black.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[David]

And there were two sides of the. Of literally of the railway line in the town and you didn't cross it. And then I went to LA and San Francisco and all that and did drugs and all that stuff, you know, that was. It was spiritual period.

[Tom]

What kind of drugs we talking?

[David]

Oh, mostly just smoking and that sort of thing, you know, and. And I didn't really go down the acid road, although everyone wanted me to. But I'm a bit frightened.

[Tom]

Why do they want you to?

[David]

Because everyone did in those days and I think maybe. Maybe I missed out. But I know people. Time that did do it and got quite damaged by it, you know, so I've had a kind of different sort of life.

[Tom]

I like it. I do like all your chapters.

[David]

Anyway, I think maybe that's enough, Tom. Maybe I should. I want to cook some dinner.

[Tom]

So that makes a lot of sense.

[David]

Can I. I've got to meet my wife at 4:20. Yeah.

[Tom]

Can I get you to do two more things? That would take just a couple of minutes. Can you? Because people listening will have. No, but they have no idea about what we can see. Could you explain what you can see and how that makes you feel and describe pain to picture for the. For the people listening who can't see?

[David]

Well, this is a spot on the heath, which is part of a very ancient circle of trees and it's a place I come a lot to Meditate. And I can look over at Hampstead, where I've stayed for 40 years, and Highgate, where my old aunties and things lived. So it feels. Feels kind of like an orientation that's very close to me. And today I feel very deeply that sort of shyness of spring that's beginning to just show itself in the trees, as if they're kind of getting ready to kind of come alive, you know, and not quite there yet, but they're so beautiful in the sunlight. I can see all around London below me. That's very. I feel very privileged to have this place.

[Tom]

That's a great answer. Wonderful answer. And lastly, I'm going to ask you a question which you can either answer in a grand way or a kind of mundane way. The question is, what are you going to do next?

[David]

I'm going to go home and cook a vegetable curry, which I looked up this morning. And it'll be ready when. When my wife. When I meet her from her clinic, if I have time. I've got. Oh, God, it's nearly 3:00.

[Tom]

I've ruined the car. I've ruined the curry. I feel bad.

[David]

No, no, no, you haven't.

[Tom]

No.

[David]

It's fascinating. I don't think I've said anything too indiscreet.

[Tom]

You haven't. I think you've been absolutely great. Thank you so much for talking.

[David]

All right.

[Tom]

I've really enjoyed it.

[David]

Yeah, I have too, Tom. Thank you.

[C]

On the day my father died I traveled through the past his breath had stopped and then I felt alone at.

[David]

Last.

[C]

I laid down beside him and watched the spirits fly he never told me he loved me I never dared to ask why waste that conversation? Where does it go when we die? Letting go of your burden and I promise I won't cry and I promise I won't cry.