EPISODE 35: Vulnerability Is a Bridge

Summary

Podcast Summary: Strangers on a Bench - EPISODE 35: Vulnerability Is a Bridge

Introduction and Daily Routine

In Episode 35 of Strangers on a Bench, host Tom Rosenthal engages in a profound conversation with Paul, a creative individual grappling with personal challenges and emotional growth. The episode begins with Tom inviting Paul to discuss his favorite day of the week.

Paul expresses his affinity for Fridays but notes, “[00:58] It’s not different from a Monday. It’s just the feeling.” He elaborates on his disciplined morning routine, highlighting his spiritual practices: “[01:04] I’m saying thank you to the cosmos. To cosmos. It could be God.” This morning ritual involves savoring his coffee and engaging in reflective journaling for about two hours, which Paul describes as a “sacred moment” ([01:58]).

Processing Relationships and Family Dynamics

A significant portion of the conversation delves into Paul’s emotional state following the end of an intense, non-romantic relationship. He shares, “[02:58] It was a lot of process,” emphasizing the complexity of his feelings after several years together. Paul attributes his decision to end the relationship to what he perceives as “divine intervention” ([03:32]), describing a pivotal moment triggered by a dark, lingering look reminiscent of his late father’s demeanor.

Paul recounts his strained relationship with his father, revealing, “[07:18] He was so remote, like, there was no interaction at all.” He reflects on his father’s passing due to dementia, stating, “[06:20] He had dementia by that point. So he didn’t even know I was basically.” This absence profoundly impacted Paul’s personal development and emotional resilience.

Creativity and Music as Emotional Outlets

Transitioning to his creative life, Paul discusses the moments when he feels most alive—through creativity. “[10:27] When I’m feeling most alive, I am being creative.” He describes a recent inspiration for a song that intertwines themes of fatherlessness and the search for divine masculine figures: “[10:48] ... a song just came through me... It’s not about me. It’s just someone needs to hear this song.”

Paul acknowledges the barriers of ego and financial constraints in sharing his music but is inspired by Tom’s encouragement to overcome these obstacles: “[13:14] Ego came into it initially... But then once you get that out of the way... I need to record that song.”

Vulnerability and Emotional Struggles

The conversation shifts to the theme of vulnerability as a bridge to deeper human connections. Paul admits his past reluctance to show vulnerability: “[31:10] I was never that person. I was like, there’s no way I’m gonna be vulnerable.” However, he acknowledges the transformative power of embracing vulnerability: “[31:29] I’m learning to do that now. Most definitely.”

Tom and Paul discuss societal expectations of masculinity, with Paul emphasizing the importance of men supporting each other emotionally: “[27:35] I think men do have to step up for each other.” They touch upon the alarming male suicide rates, underscoring the urgent need for emotional openness among men.

Insights on Masculinity and Community

Addressing the broader issue of fatherlessness, Paul states, “[28:34] I think it's a big thing. I just know that so many who don't have dads.” He observes a cultural shift towards more present and emotionally aware father figures: “[28:54] I think it's changing.”

Paul also highlights the evolving dynamics among younger men, noting increased consciousness and emotional intelligence: “[28:57] I think there are a lot of, especially even younger men, maybe when they've gone past adolescence and they're more sort of late twenties, they seem different.”

Reflections on Personal Growth and Future Aspirations

As the conversation nears its end, Paul shares his most exhilarating life experience—his initiation into adulthood through an exchange program in America. “[32:34] I was given an opportunity to go to America to do a... exchange student type thing.” This pivotal moment marked his transition from adolescence to adulthood, instilling a deep appreciation for personal growth and adventure.

Looking ahead, Paul expresses a desire to record his inspired song and embark on new adventures: “[35:31] I'm definitely getting a calling for travel.” This decision is reinforced through his interaction with Tom, solidifying his commitment to emotional honesty and creative expression.

Concluding Thoughts

The episode concludes with a harmonious exchange between Tom and Paul, emphasizing the significance of vulnerability and authentic connections. Paul leaves with a renewed sense of purpose, inspired by the encounter: “[36:48] I'm gonna record that song and get it out there. And I'm gonna start thinking about that adventure.”

Notable Quotes:

• “[01:04] I'm saying thank you to the cosmos. To cosmos. It could be God.”
• “[03:32] The thing that made me kind of question the relationship was the divine intervention.”
• “[07:18] He was so remote, like, there was no interaction at all.”
• “[10:27] When I’m feeling most alive, I am being creative.”
• “[31:29] I’m learning to do that now. Most definitely.”
• “[28:34] I think it's a big thing. I just know that so many who don't have dads.”
• “[35:31] I'm definitely getting a calling for travel.”

Conclusion

In this poignant episode, Strangers on a Bench offers listeners an intimate glimpse into Paul’s journey of self-discovery, emotional healing, and creative aspiration. Through candid dialogue and heartfelt reflections, Paul exemplifies how vulnerability can serve as a bridge to deeper human connections and personal transformation.

Transcript

[Host]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Is there a day of the week that you favor?

[Paul]

A day of the week that I favor? Let's think about this. I quite like Fridays.

[Host]

Solid. Take me from waking up to going to bed. What is a good Friday? Lived on this weird earth.

[Paul]

Well, I can't honestly say that it will differ from a Monday. It's just the feeling.

[Host]

The feeling?

[Paul]

Yeah, it's the feeling of a Friday. But my routine is I'm an early bird. Anywhere between like 6am and like 7:30. It's my preferred wake up start. I'm sort of in a spiritual practice. So I will tend to say thank you for returning my soul.

[Host]

Who are you saying thank you to?

[Paul]

I'm saying it to the cosmos. To cosmos. It could be God.

[Host]

It could be the person next to you in bed.

[Paul]

Yeah, it could be there, but it isn't. So I'll get up and I will make a coffee and I will sit with my coffee. It's like such a sacred.

[Host]

Sit with it.

[Paul]

It's such a sacred moment. I'm trying to.

[Host]

Not the making of it. The with it. You've got. You've made it.

[Paul]

I've made it. And it's like the savouring, it's really important. I'm sipping, I'm savoring my coffee.

[Host]

You're not gulping?

[Paul]

No.

[Host]

How long does the sitting take? How long could that be, Paul?

[Paul]

Well, it's usually about two hours. That's not with the coffee itself because I'm doing some writing as well.

[Host]

Okay.

[Paul]

So I'm journaling, I'm writing.

[Host]

That's a long coffee.

[Paul]

It's a low coffee in it. It's like cold now and it doesn't taste good. I'm just still sitting there, like sipping my coffee. There's a lot of. Not a journaling. Lot of reflecting.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

A lot of writing.

[Host]

And you're processing various things and I'm. Does it happen in your life or in the days that have. Just what's.

[Paul]

What's there in that moment? It might be like I'm reminiscing about yesterday or it could be about. You know what? That guy really fucked me off that time. I'm still thinking about that. It could be anything.

[Host]

Has someone fucked you off recently?

[Paul]

I've been processing the end Of a. Of a relationship.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Not necessarily romantic one, but it was just a very intense one.

[Host]

Not romantic.

[Paul]

But it had the intensity of a romantic relationship. So that needs processing.

[Host]

How long was this relationship going on?

[Paul]

For a few years.

[Host]

Oh, that's quite a long time.

[Paul]

Yeah. And I knew the person anyway. We knew each other for many years, but then we kind of ended up kind of just getting to know each other because circumstances brought us together.

[Host]

It's a lot to process.

[Paul]

It's a lot of process.

[Host]

Does anything unusual come up in your processing of this is happening?

[Paul]

Well, actually, it started off with, like, it was divine intervention. Thank you so much for this ending.

[Host]

Who ended it, though?

[Paul]

I think I kind of took a pause.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

And then the person wasn't happy with that pause, but it wasn't a gameplay.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Something happened, and I was like, the. The scales fell from my eyes.

[Host]

When you say divine intervention, do you mean just in the timing of that moment in your life, or do you mean something did occur that was kind of divine or separate?

[Paul]

I think that the thing that made me kind of question the relationship was the divine intervention. Does that make sense?

[Host]

Yeah, it does.

[Paul]

I didn't know that at the time, but it was afterwards I thought, I'm so glad that happened because the scales fell from my eyes.

[Host]

Can you think of that moment where you're like, now. I'm questioning it now.

[Paul]

Oh, 100%. Because it was a physical reaction. The whole body shook, and it was just like. And I think we should not ignore those physical reactions because we do ignore them all the time.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Because we want it to be a certain way. So I'm like. I'm not listening to that. But it was like such a. Is visceral the right word? It was such a. Like a whole, like, what?

[Host]

Obviously slightly personal question, but what was that thing that made you respond like that?

[Paul]

I don't want to give too much away, because I don't feel like I want to.

[Listener]

That's okay.

[Host]

But it was an interaction. It was a part. It's something they said.

[Paul]

It was a look, actually.

[Host]

It was a look. It was a look at you or.

[Paul]

Somebody else at me.

[Host]

It was kind of piercing.

[Paul]

It was very dark.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Paul]

Like, it was so dark.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Host]

Was it a quick look or was.

[Paul]

It lingered. It lingered a bit. It wasn't just like a second. And I actually said, why? Why are you like that for? And then it was like the person I knew came back, and I was like, wow, what was that? And also, it's a look that my dad Used to give me from time to time. I've seen that look before, and that's why I knew.

[Host]

Oh, really?

[Paul]

No. That's a boundary that's crossed.

[Host]

And when your dad gave you that look, what did that mean then?

[Paul]

I think my dad was a Sadist.

[Host]

Really?

[Paul]

Yeah, 100%.

[Host]

When you say you think.

[Paul]

I know. I know.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Host]

And what did he do that made you think that?

[Paul]

I mean, the sun is shining today. I didn't even need to visit there. It was some dark shit.

[Host]

Yeah, you overcame it.

[Paul]

Yeah, I have. That was years of process.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

I mean, that was like years and years and years.

[Host]

Is he still alive?

[Paul]

No, he passed.

[Host]

How was it of him dying?

[Paul]

That was kind of strange because we hadn't been in each other's lives for many years, and then he was kind of tracked down.

[Host]

Who tracked him down?

[Paul]

I think a family member was just like, what's happened to dad?

[Host]

Someone woke up. Hang on, Dad's missing. Someone struck him down.

[Paul]

What's happened to him? And he had dement. He had dementia by that point. So he didn't even know I was basically.

[Host]

Not at all.

[Paul]

Not at all.

[Host]

What did that feel like?

[Paul]

That was strange. But at the same time, it was great that we'd found where he was, because if I hadn't, I'd be still like, what happened to him?

[Host]

Like, years later, he's still kicking him out.

[Paul]

Do you know what I mean?

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

So disclosure, as people say.

[Host]

But you remember the same look that he gave you?

[Paul]

I remember that look. If you see a look like that, you'll never forget it. I was a child.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Host]

Are there any pleasant memories of him?

[Paul]

He was so remote, like, there was no interaction at all.

[Host]

He just wasn't there.

[Paul]

Just wasn't present. I remember. I don't know. You're probably too young to remember, but it was a comedian called Dick Emery.

[Host]

I've heard of him, but I don't remember.

[Paul]

Yeah. And my dad used to love him. And I remember one evening we were watching the Dick Emery show, and my dad laughed. It was like, oh, my God. I've never seen him smile before. Never seen him laugh. That was really wonderful. Tells her. Oh, there is a little bit of humanness there. Then that was it, that one time.

[Host]

Is there anything you didn't ask him that you wish you did?

[Paul]

Sort of like, why? Like, what's happened to you that you don't access that part of you? Like, you can't love your family. You don't know how to express that. Like, what's happened? Something's happened. But I'm a kid, you know, I'm just wanting to play, but he's there and I'm surviving over here. How do I get to play more without getting in trouble? Do you know what I mean?

[Host]

Where was your mum in all this?

[Paul]

Yeah, she was there. Trying to be a mum and love us all.

[Host]

Trying.

[Paul]

Well, no, she did.

[Host]

She did it.

[Paul]

She tried, but she's also having to navigate this. This person.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Trying to. She's trying to keep us safe. Really?

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Yeah. I look back and I'm like, no, man, how did you do it? How did you do it?

[Host]

Did you ever ask her how she did it?

[Paul]

It's a really good question, you know, probably not. I probably said, wow, you know, thanks for what you did, but not, how did you do it?

[Host]

She's still alive.

[Paul]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

I wish you could do it, Taster. How did you do it?

[Paul]

You're right.

[Host]

Just a light one.

[Paul]

The opportunity's still there because it's quite.

[Host]

An amazing feat, in a sense. Yeah. Do you think from what you've said about your dad, someone that was so other and also kind of impactful, potentially impactful in a negative sense, and that she managed to kind of form enough of a barrier between you and him to the extent that you seem like a really fundamentally level person? Do you know what I mean? I mean, that's quite. That sounds like a real feat.

[Paul]

Yeah, man.

[Host]

Of. Of whatever she did that was.

[Musician]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

What are you doing in your life when you are feeling most alive?

[Paul]

When I'm feeling most alive, I am being creative.

[Host]

Fantastic.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Host]

What are you making when you're being creative?

[Paul]

Writing. I'm making music. I'm singing, playing guitar.

[Host]

Can you think of the most euphoric creative experience in your life? Or at least recently, maybe some of this.

[Paul]

I say recently, a song just came through me.

[Host]

Could you take me through the situation? Where were you handling?

[Paul]

Because when I write a lot, I just journal. And so I've done that one morning. And then I remember a song that I wrote years ago and it was just about a boy riding through town. He's part of a gang and he's just looking for, like, next man to hunt down. And then I started thinking about fathers. I don't have a father and I think a lot of my people that I know don't have fathers. And what effect does that have on us who don't have that sort of divine, masculine in our lives? And then, bam, this song came. The chords, the lyrics, the melody, everything was just there.

[Host]

I was like, yeah, just flew out.

[Paul]

Just flew out. And I thought, someone obviously needs to hear this. It's not about me. It's just someone needs to hear this song.

[Host]

Did people hear it?

[Paul]

What? I haven't heard it yet because I haven't recorded it.

[Host]

Gotta record it.

[Paul]

I mean, I've gotta record it. I mean, I do play it out there sometimes if I do open mics or whatever. I need to find the money to lay this track and just share it. Yeah. So that's when I. I feel alive in those moments. And I feel alive when I'm with my friends as well. And even now, I feel alive.

[Host]

Good.

[Paul]

You've just walked past me and I've been minding my own business, doing my admins. Your piece and it's stuff is just. I'm just talking to you.

[Host]

It just suddenly happens.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Host]

It's the magic of just two humans. We're all just here waiting to meet, soak and do. So you've got the song and you want to record it. What does it mean to you or not? The idea of other people hearing it or reacting to it. Do you need any of that validation at all?

[Paul]

You know, I don't think it's really about validation. I read something or heard something recently that whatever we create, because we will just say we're all part of the same source.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Right. We're all here in it together. Whoever creates something, it means someone has to hear it. It means it's for something.

[Host]

Oh, I like that thought.

[Paul]

That's where I am right now.

[Host]

I mean, it's a good thought. I like that. It's like, if it comes out of you, it's meant to come out of you for others. I really like that.

[Paul]

Yeah. It's not just about me.

[Host]

But then what stopped you then doing that, apart from just maybe the money to record stuff?

[Paul]

I guess that's where sort of ego came into it initially. Like, it has to be the best and it has to be this and it has to be that. I guess if you feel like you want to be a creative person, you start worrying about, oh, how do I earn money? And stuff like that. That's the complication of it all. Because then you start looking at it as a product.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

But then once you get that out of the way and once you kind of go, it's not really about that. And you've kind of made me think, you know what? I cannot record it at home.

[Host]

Yeah, you really can.

[Paul]

It doesn't have to be. Studio doesn't. And you know, slick.

[Host]

I'm a big believer in. You can record stuff on a potato. As long as the intention. As long as that, like the emotion of feeling is there.

[Paul]

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you for reminding me.

[Host]

I think you can do that. And I think. I really like. I so like your point about if it comes out of you, then other people. It's like something some. Some divine force wants people to hear that. Otherwise it wouldn't come so quickly. Hello there. Is there a parent somewhere?

[Listener]

No.

[Host]

Who knows?

[Paul]

That's true, actually. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're kind of looking for that.

[Host]

I feel like since I've been a parent now, I just always look out for. Are you a parent?

[Paul]

No, but I hear you. You're still looking at. Yeah. You're still looking out for even dogs.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

I'm like, who do you belong to?

[Host]

Do you have a dog?

[Paul]

I don't have a dog.

[Host]

What do you look after?

[Paul]

I look after myself. My mental health. I look after my friends and family. Yeah. I look after everybody.

[Host]

Are you a looker after her? Is that like a role?

[Paul]

I don't want it to be.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Paul]

I don't want it to be like. I would say I have a look at after. I think everyone should be doing that.

[Host]

This is true. If you're not that in your kind of friendship group, what are you?

[Paul]

I think, I mean, the person who kind of people get advice from, I think, okay, the sage, maybe the old crone oracle, maybe. I don't know. But I give a perspective, I suppose. I think my friends might enjoy.

[Host]

Do you think that's because you're quite. I mean, you're honest with that perspective or they you just insightful?

[Paul]

Yeah. I've got some wisdom, I suppose, that I can share.

[Host]

Where's this wisdom come from?

[Paul]

I'm trying to work this one out. I think sometimes we know stuff that we don't even know we know like. I think it is there.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

And maybe we go from the ancestors. Maybe. Yeah. Sometimes I know things and I'm like, how on earth did I know that?

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Do you feel like that's.

[Host]

I know exactly what you mean.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. Do you have much knowledge of your ancestors? How far do you go back?

[Paul]

I don't really, to be honest, I think that's the father thing that I need to kind of explore because I don't know anything about his immediate family. Literally nothing.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Host]

I found out about a whole heap of information about my grandfather, who I knew very little about, about a year or so ago.

[Paul]

Oh, wow.

[Host]

And I think that was quite. Quite a moment.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Host]

I think it was quite impactful and it may have contributed in a small way to me doing what I'm doing now. Okay, that's powerful. Yeah, but just like more of just a really complete. A complete image of. Essentially, he didn't. He didn't really spend much time at all with my mum or my uncle of his two kids, and so they never had much to say about him because he didn't really spend much time together. I talked to my mum about all this and she said, well, we had a lodger who was young at that time. He used to hang out with the grandfather. Anyway, tracked down this lodger guy, now in his late 80s, living in Mexico, of all places. And he tells me, and he. Luckily, he's really with it, and he tells me all about spending time with my grandfather and what he was like. And he paints such a different picture to the picture that his children have.

[Paul]

Painted to me, you know, like a.

[Host]

Full person, basically, you know. Yeah, completely.

[Paul]

It's a very.

[Host]

And I think in so many ways, like, we don't. That's a sad thing. You know, the view of our parents is so narrow, you know, we see it from being the child. So true and not from. You know, there's no width at all, essentially. He escaped Slovakia just before Second World War or a couple years before. He ended up running a kind of underground. It was literally underground, rather than underground underground. A kind of Czech bar for, like, Czech serviceman and stuff. So it was a kind of. He had his own bar. And essentially he was immensely social and he said the best thing about him was his reading of character. And, you know, what he loved about bar? It's all these different people coming in from all walks of life and doing that, you know, just to hear that, you know, your grandfather had. Had that and he enjoyed doing that and was good at it, and people came to be in his space because of that. It's like rounding off a circle or something, you know, it's just like.

[Paul]

It's such a.

[Host]

It's such a good feeling.

[Paul]

And does it make you kind of understand yourself a bit more?

[Host]

Oh, definitely. At least, like, where these things may have come from or what have helped. And I do. I'm a bit of a believer in things skipping generations. We're often misguided in the idea that everything comes directly from parents. Obviously, like, that's true. You know, the parents are going from so many things as well, and sometimes it just jumps.

[Paul]

Yeah, you know what? That's very true. Because My granddad was like. I reminded him of my mum's mum, my grandmother.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

And, yeah, we didn't know her because I think she died when my mum was born, pretty much. So that used to make me feel quite proud, actually.

[Host]

Yeah. Time to do some more exploring, I think.

[Paul]

So maybe that's.

[Host]

Maybe they're kind of all there to be seen.

[Paul]

Yeah. Thank you. Maybe that's why you came into my life today.

[Host]

Maybe.

[Paul]

Wow.

[Host]

Is there anything in your life you're kind of. Any patterns you're keen to get out of?

[Paul]

God, I was working really hard on that.

[Host]

Over your coffee.

[Paul]

Over the coffee is now making me want a coffee. I was always kind of lacking in belief in myself for many, many years, but I think I've come out of that now, I think.

[Host]

Beautiful.

[Paul]

You've got me at a good point.

[Host]

What's. What's helped you bring yourself out of that?

[Paul]

I think being brave, because, honestly, I've had exorcisms where I've, like, pushed myself to do things and I am anxious and I am like. Like, I feel like it's going to kill me, but I've still done it and I know it's important to go out, come out of my comfort zone. Honestly, I remember when I had to. I was offered a gig once. I can't tell you what it took me to get to that gig. Like, weeks of anxiety, you know, like when your body thinks it's still in times where you're being chased by lions or something. It's like the primitive part of our brains is still trying to protect you.

[Host]

Did you do that gig?

[Paul]

I did that gig and it was fucking. It was wonderful. But what I had to go through to get there, honestly, it was tough, man, but I got there.

[Host]

And I suppose the painful thing isn't it, is that when you're performing on that stage where the people watching there were no idea.

[Paul]

They were. They were like, oh, my God, you're so confident.

[Host]

They have no idea whatsoever. They're probably cursing themselves. I wish I could be that confident.

[Paul]

Exactly. You don't know what it takes, man.

[Host]

I don't normally share this at this point because I think it's. I never like to jump in too much my own things, but I do that now. But I. I do songs.

[Paul]

Oh, do you?

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Are you a songwriter?

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Host]

I sing them as well.

[Paul]

Oh, do you're a musician?

[Host]

Yeah. And I've been very lucky to be able to do a tour around Europe, play some big venues, and I'm almost exactly that. Like, if you watch me. If you watch me on a stage, you may think that I was the most relaxed performer you'd ever seen.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Host]

But I really try and just try and realize the ridiculousness of what I'm doing. Everyone's just like stood there watching me open my mouth and I produce kind of vibrations basically. And they're all there kind of looking at me do that fundamentally, like such a weird thing in many ways. But what you said really reminded me of that. You have this one performance, but all that build up so much build up. And then actually also there's like that processing the come down of it afterwards. There's actually three events that happen. People think they're witnessing one event when they're actually witnessing three.

[Paul]

It's so true. And the come down, you're right. I mean, sometimes it's quite nice when you're just buzzing afterwards. But then I'd be stood up at like 4 in the morning, just like, I can't sleep.

[Host]

I switch off, there's nice buzzes and then there's. When it just gets too much, I think.

[Paul]

Yeah. I mean, did you enjoy it, your time of touring and. Because I've got this dream of like, that's. I'd love to do that because I love it so much. I do. And actually really started to. I'm starting to enjoy performing because I try and see, it's like, it's just community. We're just sharing. I need them, they need me. We're just in it together. I still have to go for a little bit of like. Okay.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

But, yeah. How did you. Did you enjoy it? There was silence when I said that.

[Host]

Did I enjoy it? There are some really, really amazing moments of it. You know, it's like there might be a couple of thousand people having that. Like.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Host]

And those shared moments are amazing. I won't lie though, I say, I would say they're not as many as you'd imagine.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Host]

Or that anyone would imagine actually.

[Paul]

Right.

[Host]

And they are. That's a lot of mums in a row. What do you call a row of mums?

[Paul]

Flock of mums.

[Host]

Yeah, Flock of mums. No one's even gonna get around that. Sorry, what was I saying? Yeah, I think it's gone. It's just a funny life. It's strange, you know, I remember walking through Prague one evening to get to the venue. It was just the most beautiful evening, summer evening. And Prague just felt so rich and warm and vibrant. And I just remember going, oh, that singing feel of like about to go to a Dark room. You know, kind of. There are these funny feelings where you just don't. I don't know.

[Paul]

It's funny because no one's ever mentioned that before because I can imagine that, yes, doing a gig is the prize, some people think. But you actually walking through this life and then you go into that dark. Yeah, yeah. That makes. That kind of puts a different spin on it.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Paul]

But did you. Did it happen quite young for you?

[Host]

So I actually.

[Paul]

So I wonder if that's a factor.

[Host]

Just sick of guy walking past and the sound of silence. I know the irony of.

[Listener]

The irony of listening.

[Paul]

He's a local.

[Host]

Listening. Listening to sound of silence out loud is pretty special.

[Paul]

And what we were just talking about as well.

[Host]

A pumping sound beside it. Yeah. I mean, I got. I learned a lot and I actually. I mean, I haven't played for a couple years. I probably will do it again.

[Paul]

I was going to say, will you do it again? And when. Maybe the time is what? When your body's like, yeah, please listen.

[Host]

Exactly. And I've tried and be a bit more careful with it.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know what you could do? I want to hear what your voice sounds like. How am I going to hear what your voice sounds like?

[Paul]

You'll have to check me out on social media. Isn't it.

[Host]

Is there a question you don't like being asked?

[Paul]

That's interesting.

[Host]

I'll flip that one around there. Don't worry, I'm not going to ask you the question.

[Paul]

I'm trying to think. I'm actually trying to think. I don't feel super comfortable actually about talking about my family.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

I'm surprised that I kind of went.

[Host]

Failed with that one.

[Paul]

Do you know what I mean? But that's testament to you because you're.

[Host]

Well and you.

[Paul]

You're relaxed. I'm sort of in a relaxed place. The sun is shining. I obviously needed to do it.

[Host]

That's a barrier, you know. You leapt over that with a plum.

[Paul]

I did. I used to not like being asked, do I have kids?

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

That used to be a bit like. But you asked that and it was so cool. It was just like, no, I don't. And that's cool.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

I wanted it and it didn't happen and there was a lot of sadness around it. But I've done all. I've done the work.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

That's why now it's just like, I'm cool. Yeah. No, I don't.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

And that's all right.

[Host]

Are there any kids generally in your life?

[Paul]

Well, I, you know, I'm an auntie.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Had lots of nieces and nephews, but they're all kind of grown up there. Actually.

[Host]

What kind of auntie are you? What's. What are you. What's your auntie tactics?

[Paul]

I'm like the cool auntie.

[Host]

Nice. You are cool Germany.

[Paul]

Well, thank you.

[Host]

So that's it. I'm not surprised. You're a cool auntie.

[Paul]

I'm just a cool auntie. I'm just there. They want to chat. I'm here, guys. Even though there's. Some of them are still at the age of like. What are you doing? Not much. Okay. So how's things? Fine. You know. That's cool as well. We were all there, weren't we? Do you remember being there?

[Host]

Yeah, definitely. You're just like, oh, just. I mean, but sometimes it is just not much, isn't it?

[Paul]

That's true. Actually. I'm not actually doing anything.

[Host]

I mean, I've spoken to. I don't want to. I don't want to be too dismissive of some of the people I've spoken to our benches, but. Okay, you know. Now again, you do get some, you know, younger people, especially. Especially men, actually. Younger men who just don't have much to say for themselves.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Host]

Oh. So I was carrying a massive fan. It's not that hot.

[Paul]

It's not even at all. For a weird moment, I thought it was on. I thought it was spinning, but it isn't.

[Host]

Yeah. Sorry. Yes.

[Paul]

But do you think young men do have a world in them, but they just don't know how to get it out of it? They don't know how to get it out, do they? They're a bit embarrassed.

[Host]

Well, that's it.

[Paul]

I think that's it. You know, there's a bit of shame for young men. I feel sorry for young men, actually. I'm feeling for them.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Host]

I mean, what's telling is just like the male. The male suicide rates are just insane.

[Paul]

They're insane, man.

[Host]

I think it's, you know, it's the biggest killer of men under 40 or something. Of everything.

[Paul]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

I mean, that's just. That's just wild what's happening.

[Paul]

And it hurts as well. Having intense feelings, actually physically hurts.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Like, I was talking about my experience about performing. It can feel awful. Like, it can feel like so much pain in the body. It just feels horrible. So I can see why people get to a point where, like, I can't feel like that anymore. I just don't want to feel like this anymore. Yeah. I do Think men in the community need to step up. Yeah, men. I think you guys have got to.

[Host]

Do we talk about fathers as well.

[Paul]

Yeah. We need to break the cycle. I think men do have to step up for each other.

[Host]

How widespread, from your experience, you think kind of a lack of fathers is? I mean, it's a big.

[Paul]

I think it's a big deal. I think it's a big thing. I just know that so many who don't have dads.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Either they're not physically there or if they are there, they're just like, I'll speak to your mother. Do you know what I mean? It feels like a big thing.

[Host]

I think we're also on the cusp of a culturally shifting mode towards fathers being more present. Yeah, we're just, we're just, we're just, we're just figuring that out.

[Paul]

Yeah. Thanks for saying that because I do think it's changing.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

I think there are a lot of, especially even younger men, maybe when they've gone past the adolescence and they're more sort of late twenties, they seem different. Actually they seem a bit more conscious.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

So I do think it's changing. I love the perspective of men. A lot of the time I always go to a guy and say, what do you think of this? Cuz I'm in the feelings too much. And they'll be like. And I'm like, thank you. You've just made me grounded. I feel grounded now. I seek it out. So we do need more.

[Musician]

Yeah.

[Host]

What do you want from your next partner? Are you looking?

[Paul]

You know what? I am always open for the right person. I'm not necessarily looking like sitting around the girl with a fan though. Yeah. I'm getting hot these days. I'm like, he. He would be a good match. I'm looking for somebody who's just like. Who just sees me, I suppose, you know, he's like, yeah, I get her. Then you become more of yourself with somebody.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Paul]

And vice versa completely. But then I think the more you are your real self, that's what you're going to attract the right person. Because we're all kind of trying to be someone else, aren't we? Well, I probably have been tried to be someone else. So they're just attracted to that version of me, not who really I am. So that's when it goes wrong.

[Host]

You say you mentioned you've tried on other personalities. Like what have they been like, the ones you've tried on? Who have you wanted to be like? Who have you presented as?

[Paul]

Well, I think I was always attracted to really charismatic men who were a bit shiny, a bit sassy, a bit the strong, silent type who don't know how to express themselves, who are a bit angry. They've always got this reign of anger. And who have I been? I guess I've been sort of a similar character. Not angry so much, but I've been a bit shiny as well. But actually, there's a very vulnerable side that I've never wanted to show. And there's a story behind that. You know, when I'm a kid, I'm surviving. I gotta be tough.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

I'm a Londoner, but I didn't realize, actually, vulnerability is the way to. That's the bridge to each other, really. But I was never that person. I was like, there's no way I'm gonna be vulnerable. Hell, no. But actually, that's just. The softening is where you really. Yeah. So I'm learning to do that now. Most definitely. Yeah.

[Host]

You're so right. Vulnerability as a bridge is a good. Really good line. A really good sentiment. So funny, isn't it, the thought that, like, vulnerability is strength. So it sounds like an oxymoron.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Host]

But actually, is it Is all the superheroes we grow up with and all stuff.

[Paul]

Exactly.

[Host]

Did Superman cry? I mean, I don't know.

[Paul]

He did. Did he.

[Host]

Any of these superheroes shed a tear at any point?

[Paul]

I mean, I guess Superman's vulnerability is Clark Kent. I mean, he's supposed to embody that side. But we don't really respect Clark Kent that much, do we? We just, like. We want Superman. We don't want Clark Kent and his silly glasses.

[Host]

Take the glasses off.

[Paul]

Just.

[Host]

We want it anyway.

[Paul]

Yeah. So. Yeah. It's still not seen as a strength. You're right.

[Host]

Okay, what's a good pronouncement question? You want a light one or a dark one?

[Paul]

A light one.

[Host]

Okay. That's good. Can you think of the most exhilarating moment of your life?

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Host]

You can?

[Paul]

Yeah, I can.

[Host]

Okay, wonderful. Hit me.

[Paul]

Well, now I remember when I was at art school and I was given an opportunity to go to America to do a. What do they call it? Like an exchange student type thing. I'd never got on a plane before. I'd never kind of left home before. But I was just like. There was something. I mean, it's like. Yes. Just say yes and worry about what happens afterward. And I remember sobbing at the airport just like, oh, my God, I'm so scared. I was terrified of what was ahead of me, but I did It. I got on the plane, I got there and it was like the beginning of my. Of my life. Like it was the. I feel it now. I almost feel like crying. It was just like what an experience that was. And it was like a spectrum of emotions. I mean it was difficult. It was. It was just like the initiation. My initiation from adolescence to. To being an adult. Yeah. And it was exhilarating. I think everybody needs. I think in the west, you know, like. Because I'm reading a book about. About initial. Like an African shaman initiation and. And lots of indigenous cultures have initiations from adolescent. Then they mark it, they market. And I think that's what's missing in the West. I think everyone needs an initiation into adulthood. Cuz I do see a lot of adolescents in adult bodies.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Paul]

I see everywhere.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

And I think, yeah, we all need that. And that was mine. And honestly I. I'm so grateful that I had that experience. And it was incredible. I felt as most alive I've ever felt. I haven't. I haven't felt that before since, to be honest. Which makes feeling a little bit sad. I think I. You know, because I'm still alive. Right.

[Host]

Very much.

[Paul]

Or am I? You see people.

[Host]

Maybe you gotta go on an adventure.

[Paul]

Yeah. I'm definitely getting a calling for travel.

[Host]

And that's it.

[Paul]

I need to. I need to leave.

[Host]

It's a summon. That feeling again.

[Paul]

Yeah. I need to go back out into the world.

[Host]

That's a really good answer. I'm totally with you on initiation. If you think about in our society now what they think initiations are like, you know, starting secondary school, go to university, first job.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Host]

All these things. All these things are nothing to do with who you are.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Host]

It's all just kind of like whatever, you know, it's all designed to kind of embed you further into a already shit structure.

[Paul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just grooming us to be the workforce.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Paul]

And that's it. Yeah.

[Host]

So, last question for you, which you can either answer in a grand kind of way or a mundane way. Either one's absolutely fine. The question is, what are you going to do next?

[Paul]

What am I going to do next? Wow. I am. What am I going to do next? Such a question. Well, in the moment, I'm just gonna savor this. Is this experience? What an experience. I saw you and you were with other people. I thought you were with that other group of people and you just kind of like. It was like a kitten coming out of the flock saying take me home so you can.

[Host]

I love that.

[Paul]

So you kind of walk forward and I was thinking, what's. What's.

[Host]

Who the hell's this? Who's this guy? What the hell is this guy?

[Paul]

Because I could easily be just like. You know what? Not today, mate.

[Host]

You could have done.

[Paul]

Some people do, but it just felt right. And you just have a nice presence, quite wholesome. But there's a soul depth there or something. Is there something there? I don't know. But I want to say for this, but in the long term, I'm gonna record that song.

[Host]

Do you gotta do that song? I would love you to send it.

[Paul]

To me if you can. Yeah, I will. I'll record it and get it out there. And I'm gonna start thinking about that adventure. Yeah, I think that really needs to happen. I think you've cemented it. Thank you. It's been cemented in this moment that needs to happen.

[Host]

Wonderful.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Host]

Well, thank you so much for saying yes.

[Paul]

I'm so glad I did.

[Host]

Thank you for asking, for taking your time. So. It's been an honor.

[Paul]

It's been an honor for me too. Thank you. Great thing that you're doing.

[Host]

Oh, you're very sweet.

[Paul]

No, it is. It is.

[Musician]

There's a world in you. Deep like an ocean. Wide like a desert. How you effort us. There's a world in you Go Green like a springboard Worn like the same.

[Paul]

Blood.

[Musician]

Face I'd not forget. You carved it with your own hands. Must be a sculptor. Did you get some of your kindness from your mother? If you have the time, could you stay longer? I know that there's more to love. Cause there's a world in you. Slow in the morning Holding a memory of children playing games. There's a world in you. Perfectly human. How do you do it? Strong and soft and safe.