EPISODE 41: A Common Humanity

Summary

Podcast Summary: Strangers on a Bench - EPISODE 41: A Common Humanity

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Guest: Anonymous (Health Service Worker & Aspiring Writer)
Release Date: June 23, 2025
Duration: Approximately 55 minutes

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Introduction

In Episode 41 titled "A Common Humanity" of Strangers on a Bench, host Tom Rosenthal engages in a profound and intimate conversation with an anonymous guest. Over a span of roughly an hour, the guest shares personal anecdotes, reflections on life, experiences in the health service, and insights into their creative endeavors. The conversation delves deep into themes of compassion, human connection, and the complexities of personal growth.

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Daily Routine and Personal Habits

The episode opens with Tom approaching the guest on a park bench, setting a casual yet thoughtful tone. The guest discusses their favorite day of the week—Friday—despite being retired for twelve years. This preference stems from an enduring excitement about the end of the week and the added bonus of watching “Have I Got News For You.”

Notable Quote:

"I'm retired for 12 years now, but I still get that excitement about the end of the week... I look forward to Fridays."
(01:05)

The guest describes an ideal Friday starting early after sunrise, engaging in a structured morning routine that includes breakfast and focused work at their desk.

Notable Quote:

"I'm usually getting up not long after sunrise. Fresh. Straight at it, straight at the world."
(01:37)

Their workspace is minimalist, featuring only essential items like pencils and four encyclopedias supporting their mouse, a setup necessitated by recent surgeries to maintain comfort.

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Reflections on Past Experiences: Bullying and Fiji

A significant portion of the conversation touches on the guest's childhood experience with bullying, which left a lasting impact and inspired their first, albeit unpublished, novel.

Notable Quote:

"When I was about 9 or 10 years old... he ran a stalk of grass across my cornea, across my eye. Extremely painful."
(05:00)

This traumatic event underscored the duality of human nature, reminiscent of themes from "Lord of the Flies," highlighting the capacity for both good and bad within individuals.

Fiji Adventure: The guest recounts a transformative trip to Fiji two decades ago, where witnessing the Milky Way in its pristine glory deeply moved them and fostered a passion for writing.

Notable Quote:

"I felt privileged that I'd had the opportunity to do that... reliving it every night and I've got enormously."
(11:38)

This experience not only enriched their personal life but also served as a creative muse, influencing their journaling and writing practices.

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Career in the Health Service

Transitioning into their professional life, the guest shares an unexpected journey into the health service, sparked by a chance encounter at a job center. Initially aiming to become a librarian, they stumbled into a lab assistant position that, despite early hesitations, became a significant and fulfilling career path.

Notable Quote:

"I walked into a job centre... pointing out this one job which was working in a laboratory. I took the card down and was instantly offered an interview."
(13:05)

Their tenure in the health service was marked by camaraderie, challenging experiences, and impactful relationships, including memorable colleagues who left lasting impressions.

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Understanding Compassion and Human Connection

A central theme of the episode revolves around compassion and the shared humanity that binds individuals together. The guest emphasizes the importance of taking time to listen and connect with others, regardless of differences.

Notable Quote:

"Everybody goes on about how divided the world is... but fundamentally we're all quite similar, really."
(16:44)

They reflect on the loss of a dear friend from their workplace, whose infectious enthusiasm and genuine kindness exemplified the essence of human connection.

Notable Quote:

"He would talk to the most unlikely person just to get to know them, just to experience another perspective."
(18:30)

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Creative Journey: Writing and Verse Novel

The guest delves into their passion for writing, particularly focusing on an ambitious verse novel project. This creative endeavor is portrayed as both intense and fulfilling, serving as a bridge between their experiences and artistic expression.

Notable Quote:

"I spend my mornings, especially for the last five years, with a group of imaginary people... they've become quite real to me."
(24:14)

During the interview, the guest astonishingly recites the first 14 lines of their verse novel from memory, showcasing their deep immersion in the project.

Excerpt from the Verse Novel:

"A story must have a beginning. So let it be here on this day when half the city's out and grinning at summer breaking through in May..."
(30:05)

This passage illustrates the guest's intricate storytelling and poetic prowess, setting the stage for the novel's themes of freedom, love, and existential contemplation.

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Personal Reflections and Relationships

The conversation shifts towards personal life, exploring the guest's relationships and the evolution of their understanding of love. They express a nuanced view of love, recognizing its changing nature over time.

Notable Quote:

"Love as many different colors to it... So undecided, I think is the answer."
(41:53)

Discussing potential romantic interests, the guest reveals a slow-burning connection with someone they've known for nearly a decade, balancing a desire for independence with budding emotional ties.

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Closing Thoughts and Farewells

As the conversation winds down, the guest shares memories from their youth, including learning to ride a bike and the profound sense of freedom it brought. They reflect on how these moments shaped their journey, leading to significant life experiences such as a pilgrimage to honor D.H. Lawrence.

Notable Quote:

"That sense of inimitable freedom."
(50:12)

In a heartfelt conclusion, the guest contemplates their legacy and how they wish to be remembered, expressing a desire for authenticity and leaving behind stories that reflect their life's journey.

Final Quote:

"I'm going to start looking for an angel. But here today I'm gonna go home, I'm gonna have a sandwich and then I'm gonna watch Doctor Who. It's the only thing you can do on a Saturday."
(51:20)

The episode concludes on a light-hearted note, with both host and guest expressing mutual appreciation for the meaningful exchange.

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Insights and Themes

• Human Duality: The guest's experiences highlight the capacity for both kindness and cruelty within individuals, emphasizing the importance of understanding and compassion.

• Impact of Trauma: Early traumatic experiences can significantly influence personal growth and creative expression.

• Value of Connection: Genuine human connections, even with strangers, can profoundly impact one's perspective and emotional well-being.

• Creativity as Healing: Writing serves as a therapeutic outlet, allowing for reflection and processing of complex emotions and experiences.

• Legacy and Remembrance: Contemplations on how one is remembered underscore the desire to leave a positive and authentic mark on the world.

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Conclusion

Episode 41 of Strangers on a Bench offers an evocative exploration of an individual's life journey, marked by resilience, creativity, and a deep-seated belief in the unifying power of compassion. Through candid storytelling and introspection, the guest embodies the essence of the podcast's mission: unveiling the hidden depths of everyday strangers to reveal our shared humanity.

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Note: All quotes are attributed to the guest and are timestamped to correspond with the podcast transcript provided.

Transcript

[Host]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Okay. You're feeling ready? How's the ice cream?

[Guest]

Very good. Now always is.

[Host]

Okay, so the easy starter. Is there a day of the week that you favor?

[Guest]

Friday? Probably. Probably.

[Host]

Probably. So it's on touch and go. Well, could be a Tuesday.

[Guest]

I'm retired for 12 years now, but I still get that excitement about the end of the week. Even though I really liked my job, I still look forward to Fridays. And of course, when have I Got News For You? Is on. That's an added bonus at the end of the day.

[Host]

Take me through what for you now is a ideal Friday spent in the world.

[Guest]

Yeah. I'm usually getting up not long after sunrise. Fresh. Straight at it, straight at the world. And then ablutions. Breakfast. And then I'm at my desk.

[Host]

Straight onto the desk. Interesting. Are there any pictures on this desk?

[Guest]

No, no, no.

[Host]

Any perf. Any kind of ornaments?

[Guest]

No. There's pencils. Pencils and. Oh, I should say. My mouse has to sit on four encyclopedias.

[Host]

Okay. Specifically four.

[Guest]

Yeah. It has to be the right height.

[Host]

Of course.

[Guest]

I've had two bouts of surgery in the last two years. That's why the desk has to be set up just so, because some positions can still be a bit uncomfortable for me.

[Host]

So it's quite a. It's quite a setup you've got.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

And the mouse on the 4 encyclopedia, does it ever fall off?

[Guest]

Occasionally. There's usually a mad scramble. Then when that happens.

[Host]

Do you ever talk to the mouse?

[Guest]

No.

[Host]

No, no. Do you talk to anything in the house that isn't alive?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Host]

What do you talk to?

[Guest]

I talk to the room, really, because I'm reading aloud, what I'm doing to test the horses over the jumps, as it were.

[Host]

Yeah. And what does the room say? Anything back?

[Guest]

Not normally, but I do have some neighbours who can be quite noisy.

[Host]

What they say.

[Guest]

I'm not sure I can repeat that.

[Host]

Oh, go on, go on.

[Guest]

Well, it's just. Yeah, they're at it. There's very few words. It's all noises.

[Host]

Fantastic.

[Guest]

And I'm sat there trying to talk to the room and blotting it out. But at some stage I want to record what I've been writing. But obviously it's not going to be on one of those days.

[Host]

Have you sensed any patterns to their dove making?

[Guest]

I think it's pretty random. I haven't exactly marked it off on the calendar.

[Host]

I think you should start noticing it down. Just kind of funny.

[Guest]

I don't think I'm done.

[Host]

Chart these patterns and then you might see there is a pattern. And if you have to, you know, you have to work or record something.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Host]

What do you kind of think of it all? Is it annoying? Is it interesting?

[Guest]

It's just there he was playing the piano. Yeah. I don't think they would do any. Anything on the piano, but. But I think I get the impression that he's having piano lessons. I've heard him playing guitar and he's quite good.

[Host]

He's quite proficient in guitar, but he's.

[Guest]

Obviously a newcomer to the keyboard.

[Host]

Are you kind of you impressed with his. You know, he's expanding his horizons.

[Guest]

Yeah. He's going to have a repertoire, isn't he? Eventually. I think he's probably got a repertoire at the moment.

[Host]

Could you imagine ever, you know, saying anything to. About the lovemaking?

[Guest]

It would require quite a cue on their part for me to come out with something. I'm not ruling it out. I've been known to say a few things in the past to neighbors or.

[Host]

Just to people who are like.

[Guest]

To people generally.

[Host]

So you are a bit of an interventionist. You've got it in you.

[Guest]

Oh, God, yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

To dive in.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

Okay. Well, it sounds like you've been quite restrained.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

So tell me about, you know, you say you're not averse to diving in there. I don't know whether to ask you whether there's ones you regret or ones you're happy you did, but either one is fine.

[Guest]

I've intervened with bullies before.

[Host]

Okay, okay. Is that from earlier?

[Guest]

Because I've been bullied myself when I was a boy. So I see.

[Host]

If it's not too painful. What do you recall of being bullied as a boy?

[Guest]

Oh, I'll tell you one incident that happened when I was about 9 or 10 years old when myself and a friend were cornered in the local playing field by a couple of boys who I had always got on with beforehand, but suddenly they got it into their heads to. To have a go at us. And I'm quite small. It doesn't really come across on radio or podcasts. And this lad hauled me down onto the ground and pinned me to the ground, knocked my glasses off and then grabbed hold of a stalk of grass and he ran it across my cornea, across my eye. Which was extremely painful. I ended up at home in tears and off to the doctors and what have you. And that was probably the worst of it, I would think. Yeah.

[Host]

And these are kids you thought were fine before?

[Guest]

Yeah, I thought they were fine beforehand, but it's like Lord of the Flies, you know, everybody's capable of turning, I suppose.

[Host]

I mean, you've obviously remembered this very vividly.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know, to what extent has it. Did moments of that shape the rest of your life? Like, you know, do you feel like it's molded anything?

[Guest]

Well, I think it's obviously. It's obviously played on. On my mind because the first novel I ever wrote was on the subject of bullying. It's not been published. It will never see the light of day. But I obviously pick that as my first. First subject.

[Host]

Is there any reason why you don't want it to see the light of day? It's your first.

[Guest]

I don't. It's good enough.

[Host]

Oh, okay.

[Guest]

Yeah. Like anybody who writes, you build up a. A cupboard of. Of stuff that you hope will never see the light of day. Really? It's a long apprenticeship.

[Host]

Can you be sure?

[Guest]

I'm old enough to admit that it's still an apprenticeship. I think it's always an apprenticeship. Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Guest]

At the moment I've been reading. Twenty years ago I was in Fiji.

[Host]

Okay.

[Guest]

I taken a year off.

[Host]

I'd stop you there. No, no, it's absolutely right. Just tell you, funny link to Fiji that I have.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Host]

I just. I can't not bring up because the only link is Fiji. But before I started doing this, I do songs and one of my songs is used as the Fiji airline holding music.

[Guest]

Alright.

[Host]

Anyway, back to your story about Fiji. I just had to get it out there. That's been the first time in my life that I've had a chance to say that. Why are you in Fiji?

[Guest]

20 years ago I worked in the health service, but I yearned for a gap year. And at the time the health service did a thing where you could take a career break. So I took a year off and went traveling. So I had the gap here that I should have had before I went away.

[Host]

Lovely.

[Guest]

To uni. I bought a round the world ticket. And at this time 20 years ago, I was in Fiji and I kept a journal, which was probably the longest piece of sustained writing I'd done up until that time. And I'd been rereading it day by day.

[Host]

Oh, okay.

[Guest]

In my footsteps of where I was.

[Host]

That's fun.

[Guest]

And 20 years ago I was at A place called Korotogo on the coral coast in Fiji. But I know what's coming up. I know what's coming up on this second night.

[Host]

What's gonna happen on the second night?

[Guest]

On this second night, I went and had a drink in this restaurant and then a waiter came over and said, the gentleman over there has invited you to have dinner with her. I thought, invite the dinner, what can I do? So I went over and sat down with this chap. I think he was Australian, and I don't really remember much because I think a fair few sherbets were hat. It was a very pleasant evening. And then walking back, I was sat with some locals at some benches that were set out along the road. It's not like in this country, it's a different pace of life. And people say to me, okay, you were away for a year. What was the most incredible thing you saw? And it happened at night. The sun had gone down and the thing I saw wasn't even on this planet because there wasn't anything in the way of street lights. There was no light pollution whatsoever. And I just leant back and I looked up at the sky. And if you live in this country, you might have seen the Milky Way, but you've never seen it like it was in Fiji. And it was this incredible, glistening, glittering band above. I can't. I. I could read by it. That's how bright it was. And it was the most astonishing. I'd seen the Milky Way from sort of dark sky areas in this country, but I'd never seen it from the middle of the Pacific Ocean. And I just looked up and I thought, yeah.

[Host]

How did it make you feel to see it?

[Guest]

Wow. Everybody says it makes you feel very small, and it does. But mostly I think I felt. I felt privileged that I'd had the opportunity to do that.

[Host]

And you get to relive it every night. At the moment.

[Guest]

At the moment, I'm reliving it every night and I've got.

[Host]

Is that enjoyable?

[Guest]

Oh, yeah, hugely.

[Host]

Do you find yourself surprised by any of the things you wrote?

[Guest]

Yeah, I'm constantly surprised. I think, wow, how did I ever write that?

[Host]

Because it was so.

[Guest]

It's just captured it.

[Host]

You just absolutely nailed it. You smashed it. This sounds like a pretty epic trip.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Host]

When you returned, to what extent were you a changed person?

[Guest]

I knew I wanted to do more writing.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Guest]

I'd always wanted to write, but work had got in the way. I was working long hours in the NHS and there was precious little time for. For writing it is a full on full time thing really. I was working long hours and what.

[Host]

Was your last day like there?

[Guest]

Well, I had to go in and hand in bits of equipment and stuff and sign some papers. That was all done by mid morning and I met up with my closest friend that I'd made there in 27 years. We went and had lunch together and I went home and burst into tears basically.

[Host]

Why?

[Guest]

Because I'd love the job, I'd love many of the people that I'd worked with. When you work as a team it's like having another family and in the environment I was working with for a lot of people, I mean I'm single but for a lot of the people that I worked with, they spent more time with the team than they actually did with their families. So yeah, it was hugely social and I hadn't expected to do that line of work at all. I fell into it entirely through a twist of fate.

[Host]

What was the twist?

[Guest]

I walked into a job centre, I bumped into, into an old school friend of mine who I hadn't seen for years. I was planning on being a librarian so I was looking for stopgap work really and we were looking at the daft jobs that were on display and having a laugh and he pointed out this one job which was working in a laboratory and I said well I can't do that, I arts, I'm not science. He said no, he said you could do that. He said it's just a lab assistant job. I took the card down and was instantly offered an interview, instantly offered the job after the interview, turned them down and went and did something else. And then six months later they came after me again and I thought blimey, these people are persisting.

[Host]

You must have been great in that interview. What did you do?

[Guest]

Don't know, I guess I just. I fitted the mould of what they already had working there. They had these temporary lab assistants that they'd taken on and they were all, all different but they were all unusual in their own way. And I should say that one of the guys I was working with was. He'd had a nervous breakdown while doing a physics degree at Cambridge. And then there was another guy who is a director of a major cancer research company out in the States. When I met him he was the most impressive 18 year old I'd ever met. It was like he was 35. Yeah, I mean he, he was so mature and he was so bright and so wise. He was, he was obviously destined for great things because he was hugely impressed, amazing. And the last time. The last time I saw him, he was living in a two million dollar house in San Diego.

[Host]

Wow.

[Guest]

I actually went to his house when all on the trip, on the big trip.

[Host]

Wonderful.

[Guest]

So I called in to see him. And that evening in San Diego, we sat in his, his back garden as the evening cooled off and we sipped our beers and I looked around me and I said, where did it all go wrong?

[Songwriter]

Fantastic.

[Host]

What did you learn about human beings from doing this job?

[Guest]

The variety. Everybody goes on about how divided the world is and how divided different countries are, but at the end of the day, we do have a common humanity. And I think that in almost everybody there is compassion. And sometimes I think we bury it, sometimes we forget about it. I mean, we're all different, but fundamentally we're all quite similar, really, perhaps striving in different directions. But ultimately we need more time just to talk and listen to each other. I went to a funeral about two or three weeks ago. This was somebody who I met in my line of work. And I met him the day I started work there, 1st of October, 1985. And he was pretty much unforgettable right from the off. We became very good friends. And I knew him for nearly 40 years. And he always had boundless energy and enthusiasm. At times I could find him a bit exhausting, but he was hilariously funny. He was a really lovable character, but he was the sort of person who would go into a bar and he talked to the most unlikely person just to get to know them, just to experience another perspective. And he'd do that with everybody. And I never met anybody who didn't have a good word for him, who fell out with him. Everybody really, really liked him. And he always made an effort. If you were feeling a bit down, if you bumped into him in the course of your day, you wouldn't be down for very long. He was remarkable. He was a remarkable individual and I miss him terribly. I can't believe he's gone. But you think about that and we all have immense opportunities to do more in our lives and to connect with people and to listen to people, even if it's people who are not on the same page as you whatsoever. When you meet people like that, it's an opportunity. I think our shared humanity is something that we need to explore a lot more fully.

[Host]

You mentioned compassion. Can you think of a moment in your life, a time in your life where, where you felt like someone had given that genuine compassion to you, that really kind of moved you and helped you in a Particular moment in your life.

[Guest]

Oh, that's a difficult one.

[Host]

Or maybe the, you know, maybe the act of compassion that has been most significant in your life. It.

[Guest]

It's easy to sort of dive into areas that are really dramatic. And I saw some incredibly dramatic aspects of life saving which were totally unexpected and sometimes it doesn't always work. I saw a young. A young down syndrome woman who collapsed and this was at the end of a long working day. It was nothing to do with us. We just sat in the. Being there on site and we did everything we could to try and save her. And then eventually, because we were working out in the sticks, the ambulance arrived and they worked with her for quite a long time, but she didn't survive. It wasn't the thing that was normal for us. We wouldn't normally see something like that. And a e see it all the time. Since I finished work, I saw somebody who was brought into the eye hospital after a vicious attack. I was there for something else. And the staff were absolutely astonishing, I should say. I mean, I think we got a fantastic hospital in the Bristol Eye Hospital. They basically saved the site in my right eye.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Guest]

The compassion and care I received from them from staff who came from all over the world, from probably 20 different nations.

[Host]

Wow. Yeah.

[Guest]

All utterly dedicated to their work and they showed me the utmost patience. They gave me so much time and it was. It was incredibly moving, really.

[Host]

With your writing.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know, you just talked about your. Your dear friend who died recently and how wonderful they were and Sounds like you got so much out of the different relationships at work. You know, do you find writing a.

[Guest]

Bit kind of lonely, as they always say on radio? And I've noticed that people do this. That's a good question. People always say that, don't they? Now, that's a good question. And you think, ah, yeah, you're thinking about what you.

[Host]

Exactly. It gives them time to answer it. Exactly.

[Guest]

The smug answer to that is, I spend my mornings, especially for the last five years, with a group of imaginary people and they're quite company enough, really, especially with everything that they're up to. And they've become quite real to me, really. I spent so much time with them and the nature of the project is such that I hear their voices all the time and sometimes I hear the voices next door as well. But. But when I'm out and about, I'll be thinking about certain scenes and certain bits of dialogue.

[Host]

So you're really. You're carrying this bit of writing everywhere with you. You're living this.

[Guest]

Yeah, it's a very intense project.

[Host]

I mean, will it end?

[Guest]

Well, it's pretty much finished now. I spent the last nine or 10 months editing, which has been a fairly full on thing. Although I try and stop work by. By lunchtime. I try and clear my head.

[Host]

What do you do after lunch?

[Guest]

After lunch I go for walks like I am today. I vary them as well. I've gone a bit off track today because a. I wanted to see the view, but also for the listener. There's a Mr. Whippy park over there and I was having an ice cream. I was having an ice cream when our friend turned up, so. So. But yeah, so it's a different walk every day and if it's pouring with rain, I'll allow myself to skip.

[Host]

As in skipping along the journey. There's nothing to do. Sorry. I think maybe you're skipping along because maybe it's raining, people aren't seeing you. You know, allow yourself to skip. Skipping time, skipping the. Would you like to find a partner? You said you mentioned your signals. Yeah. Signal. Single.

[Guest]

I have mixed feelings now because of my age. Really? It seems a. A big step to take. I've always. Well, I've not always been single, but I've never been married. I've never actually lived with anybody other than when I shared houses when I was a student and in early working days. So it would be something a bit unusual for me, I mean.

[Host]

But you don't have to live.

[Guest]

No, no, no, no, true. I mean, I know somebody at the moment who I like very much.

[Host]

Okay.

[Guest]

I think she's possibly considering me as well.

[Host]

Okay. As we speak.

[Guest]

Quite possibly, yeah.

[Host]

Oh, God. It's an ongoing.

[Guest]

Well, it's been a.

[Host]

It's a live situation.

[Guest]

It's been a slow burn from. I've known her for not quite 10 years.

[Host]

It's quite a slow burn.

[Guest]

Yeah. I should say. I should say, I think.

[Host]

What's stopping you? Sorry, I'm confused.

[Guest]

Well, first of all, this project I've been involved in has really monopolized my time.

[Host]

Sure.

[Guest]

Plus, I don't. I'm not the sort of person who would want to. To monopolize somebody because this woman is. She's tremendously independent, rather like me.

[Host]

Oh, so that could work.

[Guest]

No, so it.

[Host]

So it could be both independent.

[Guest]

Yeah. She lives at the top of a very big hill.

[Host]

You get fit. You get a fit. Yeah, well, I mean, this is. I don't know. I feel like it could be a great adventure for you.

[Guest]

It could be. Yeah. It could well be you know, you.

[Host]

Can always just go slowly. You don't have to rush these things.

[Guest]

But as I say, I mean. How old are you?

[Host]

Guess.

[Guest]

Oh, I would say you're looking at my hair.

[Host]

Do you see any grey?

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, I've got a bit. I would say you must be 30.

[Host]

That was very kind. 38.

[Guest]

38. That was the next number I was going to say was 38. All right. I mean, I'm 65, and I like to think I'm a young 65.

[Host]

You know what? I'm glad you said that. I do get a real sense in talking to you, that there's a real youthfulness in you that you don't always see. You don't always see from people who are slightly older. You know, there's a bounce.

[Guest]

I think there's physical activity. And I wish I could do cryptic crosswords because they say doing cryptic crosswords keeps you young mentally.

[Host]

Maybe this. This lady could help you, too. What about one more question about her? What do you like about her?

[Guest]

She's smart. She's big reader.

[Host]

Perfect for reading your stuff.

[Guest]

Yeah, she has read some of my stuff.

[Host]

Did she like it?

[Guest]

Yeah, I think so. I think she thinks that I'm. What I'm writing is quite utre. It's quite out there. It's. It's pushing at envelopes.

[Host]

Oh, okay. In what sense, can I ask?

[Guest]

It's a comedy, and it's quite dark comedy. And it's also not the sort of book that your listeners might imagine. It goes against the grain in every. Every possible way.

[Host]

Oh, wow.

[Guest]

Because for a start, it's not in prosecution. It's a verse novel.

[Host]

Whoa. There we go.

[Guest]

So it's enormously complex.

[Host]

Whoa. Is it a funny question if I ask you to. Do you remember the first line to it?

[Guest]

Would you like to hear the opening?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Okay, here it is, then. This is. I'll give you the opening. It begins in Bristol, that St. Mary Racliffe, which, for those of you who don't know it, is our most beautiful church. Queen Elizabeth I said of it that it was the fairest, goodliest parish church in all England. And it goes like this. A story must have a beginning. So let it be here on this day when half the city's out and grinning at summer breaking through in May. And as the blood rush of elation prepares. As the blood rush of elation. You'll have to edit this bit out.

[Host]

There is an editor. Don't worry.

[Guest]

All right.

[Host]

Hello, Rose.

[Guest]

I'll start again, Yeah. A story must have a beginning. So let it be here on this day when half the city's out and grinning at summer breaking out in May. And as the blood rush of elation preoccupies a stirring nation, imagine you were floating there above the streets on warming air, detached from all the throb and bustle of modern life. And as you tread of the wafting thermals overhead, watch as the cars harry and hustle as if they are already late for what has been ordained by fate. 200ft above the traffic, a pair of steeplejacks stand paused as if the height has grown too graphic for them to cope with and has caused them both to question what enjoyment they ever got from this employment. The topmost man says something to his mate below it's super glue that holds him to the rising spire and then proceeds to climb once more, rung after rung, just as before, attaching now and then a wire for safety through his long ascent towards that infinite blue tent. Around his neck and to his shoulder a rucksack hangs, bulging and fat and looking awkward, even more so since what it holds. But let's leave that for later, as it is symbolic of what's to come, the froth and frolic that lovers wade through when their eyes are fixed upon one certain prize. So single minded are these climbers, they never think to scan the ground, those upturned faces, each spellbound at their adventure, all those rhymers with their little books pausing to ponder wire or hooks. Perhaps the way with stifel jacking, should such a word exist, must be to have a certain something lacking that others have abundantly. How else to fathom this existence they seek out daily at this distance from solid ground? And yet in crowds there must be those who yearn for clouds, not in the sense of isolation, although that too will play a part, but rather what impels the heart towards the risk of immolation. Chasing an ikarian dream for that, dear reader, is my theme. Also watching on this morning, and with his heart close to his tongue, a man is mouthing out a warning to those whose lives hang by a rung. He can't help this, it's in his makeup, as is the way he'll always wake up before his wife, who in the bed is stirring now, her tousled head emerging from the hotel duvet and the aurora of the wine they sank, two bottles of a fine and musky Merlot, plus a cuvee she can't remember yet, but will. The champagne was just overkill to say it as it is and call a spade a Spade. She got quite pissed and now feels grim Poor, poorly Paula yes, that's her name and in a twist, her husband's Paul. What are the chances of that, you say? What circumstances? What starry pattern made that so you couldn't make it up? I know. She stares at the four walls Uncertain of what the time is or the day and with her furred tongue finds a way to tell her beau to close the curtain For Pete's sake, Paul. But he just smirks for that's the way their marriage works they're lovers but more lately besties who bonded over Elton John. Unusually Rock of the Westies, an album which had sunk and gone till the reissue, added Kiki A song that leaves me rather peaky, if I'm honest To each his own, eh? Since that time their love has grown much like her hair he calls her punzy it almost reaches to her bum it cries I love you when they come it's like sharing an outsized onesie Is how they've seen it from the start they'd never break each other's heart Crikey.

[Host]

I mean, that's. I mean, I feel like I should just clarify that you. You have just remembered that.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Host]

That you're not. I mean, you're. I mean, that's going to sound for all money, like you're just reading that out from a bit of paper or a phone or wherever. You just remembered that.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Host]

Incredible.

[Guest]

I told you this might be an unusual interview.

[Host]

How have you remembered that? Those are the first bit. And you've done how much since that.

[Guest]

Was the first 98 lines. And that came out in the first few days that I wrote it. And it's very. Virtually pretty much unchanged how it. How it emerged. But how much more is it? There's a lot more of it.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Guest]

That's the first 98 lines. And the whole thing, including the dedication, is 14,000 lines long.

[Host]

Who's it dedicated to?

[Guest]

I dedicated it to a poet who I knew when I was younger, called Peter Redding. He was known as the Laureate of Grot and he wrote a lot of very funny satirical poetry and he was a major influence on me. I thought he was a wonderful man. I pretty much knew as soon as it got started that I was going to dedicate it to him.

[Host]

Lovely. Not your parents or anything? You didn't like them enough?

[Guest]

No, no. I love my parents dearly, but I feel there's other stuff that I. I can dedicate to them that's better. My father was an interesting man. I had a fairly sort of close relationship to him. We didn't always see eye to eye, but I think mostly we got. And I greatly admired and respected him because he was a self made man of virtually no education. My mother was a fairly typical working class mother, really, who I think it's fair to say she lived largely in the shadow of my father because my father was the sort of person who entered a room and all eyes were on him. But you were asking about compassion earlier on and the compassion shown by my mother towards my father. When my father became ill in the last 15 years of his life, that's probably the most obvious, but it's the most personal. Yeah, yeah. Virtually every aspect of diabetes, so bilateral amputee below the knees and lost most of his vision. So, yeah, my family's done quite well out of the nhs, thank you very much.

[Host]

And you've given plenty to it. So. Yeah, seems like a fair swap.

[Guest]

Yeah. I was born two months premature and I was a rhesus baby and I was saved by the science of blood transfusion. And I can remember when I was five years old, I was. I was playing on my mother's piano, which they brought up from Dorset and it sat in our living room and I never heard her play it once, not when anyone else was in the house anyway. And I was playing on a little piano with my Airfix soldiers, a little known theatre of conflict between the Russian infantry and the French Foreign Legion, which most people have never heard about. And my father came in from work and he put down a little blue book on the lid of the piano and he said, do you know what that is? I can remember this like it happened this morning. And I said, no, what's that? And he opened it up and inside there was a ticket with the day's date on. He said, I've just given blood. He said, when you were born, somebody gave blood and their blood saved your life. So I've just gone and given some blood back. And 20 years later I started working for him. When I was a student, I used to see their vans roll up at the hall of residence where I stayed in first year, and they'd unload all their equipment for blood donors and I used to see them unloading and used to think, blimey, that's a job and a half. I never, I never envisaged I'd end up doing that job.

[Host]

It's a strange life, isn't it? Very, very strange life there. So many different questions I can to ask you.

[Guest]

Just take one off the top of the deck.

[Host]

Who's been the greatest love of your life? You don't want to say.

[Guest]

No, I'm. I'm. I'm sad. The thing with great loves is they change over time. If you'd asked me that 20 years ago, I wouldn't have hesitated in knowing. But as you get older you appreciate people for different things and love as many different colors to it. Of course even for somebody like me who's colorblind. So it varies enormously at different times of your life. I think. I'm not certain that it won't change yet again. It might be like all the cells in your body that change every seven years. So. So undecided, I think is the answer.

[Host]

What was the. You said 20 years ago you'd be sure. Does that mean. Yeah, 20 years ago or something?

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah. Because 20 years ago I'd be thinking of. Of the most important relationship of my life. I mean that was a sort of a very passionate relationship.

[Host]

The people hate you through the walls.

[Guest]

Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. I'm sure there were a lot of winks passed in the street.

[Host]

What would you like your. If you could have one. Something happen at your funeral that doesn't normally happen at funerals, what would you. What would it be? And you will be.

[Guest]

It is to use that one again. That, that. That sort of door stuff again. It is a good question. But as long as people aren't queuing up with screws and screwdrivers just to make sure that'll be a result.

[Host]

Fantastic. So no particular. They're happy with that. It's a lack of screwdriver people. I'll be gone, you'll be gone.

[Guest]

I'll be in the next realm, whatever that is.

[Host]

Yeah. So as we'll find out. Can you think of a time in your life you wish you had more courage to do something but you didn't have it at that time?

[Guest]

Two possibilities really. Both of them to do with women. Because I think it might have sent my life in a slightly different direction. And I'm curious. I'm curious about the path not taken. And there were. There were several moments in. In my life. I can look back now and. And at the time you can't see that there was a fork in the road.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Guest]

You just go along the one that just seems right. It's that Robert Frost thing for those who know that he had a Robert Frost poem. But I'm forever curious about these me's that might have been but never were they have been happier.

[Host]

Yeah. Can you say which was the one that's Most plays on your mind. The path not taken. How old are we talking?

[Guest]

Oh, I was quite young with the first one.

[Host]

And what was the choice? Whether to be with this person or.

[Guest]

Not to make a move, really.

[Host]

Okay.

[Guest]

But the other one, I mean, was. It was fairly sort of obvious, but I. I backed away. Something didn't feel right and I backed away. And I later found out that I probably made the right decision.

[Host]

Okay.

[Guest]

Yeah. I think I know now that if I had gone down that route, it would have completely upended my life.

[Host]

Have you ever had a notable experience with a horse?

[Guest]

Yeah, I have, actually.

[Host]

Oh, fantastic. That was a shot in the dark there.

[Guest]

Yeah. I went for riding lessons with some colleagues from work. They had ridden horses before, I hadn't. And of course, I'm the one bloke because most of my social life in those days when I was working involved me and a lot of women, really, truth be told.

[Host]

Why were so many women?

[Guest]

Because I worked.

[Host]

Oh, sorry.

[Guest]

I worked in a predominantly female environment for many, many years. But anyway, I was the bloke, so I got put on the big stallion and. Yeah, that was pretty scary.

[Host]

Were all these ladies watching you?

[Guest]

Yeah. All falling about, laughing? Of course, yeah. And then there's. There's. It was unthinkable. When I was a boy, I was brought up in a council estate in Bristol. And there was like these big open fields at the back of our house, enclosed fields that were pretty much the same as they'd looked for 100 years beforehand, I suppose, except there was a playground. But it was all pretty run down. We didn't know any better when we were kids. I went back there about four or five years ago and the playground had gone right. Where the playground was were stables and there were horses in the back field, really. And it was. It was a complete. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was a complete meltdown moment.

[Host]

What's happened to my.

[Guest]

Where'd it go? But how fantastic for the kids now who look out of their bedroom window and see horses.

[Host]

Oh, yeah.

[Guest]

You know. Incredible. On that estate, you could never have imagined anybody keeping horses. Yeah.

[Host]

Is there anything you'd like me to ask you?

[Guest]

Ask me about that hill over there.

[Host]

Okay. Can you describe. Obviously. Could you try to describe what this hill over there is?

[Guest]

There is a long arm of hillside that encloses the southern edge of the city, and that's called Dundree Hill. It's not a very tall hill. It's probably about three miles long. It's about six or seven hundred foot High, I suppose. And I often wondered about it. And then 50 years ago this month, I finally learned to ride a push bike. It was the one thing I always wanted when I was growing up was. Didn't want a bike. I wanted to be able to ride a bike. And then eventually, 50 years ago this month, I got a bike. And I remember riding up onto Dundry Hill and riding all the way along from that side over to the west, past the village of Dundree, and then cycling down through the lanes. And for a 15 year old to suddenly have that degree of freedom was astonishing. And I spent most of the summer of 1975 appreciating that and riding over the other side where there's a big reservoir called Chew Valley Lake. And then the following year was the glorious summer of 1976, which was an unrepeatable summer. Everything about 1976 for me was it landed exactly the perfect. Exactly the perfect time. That was the summer I first read D.H. lawrence. That completely opened a window in my head, really. And when I took this year off traveling, a lot of it was traveling in the footsteps of D.H. lawrence. And one afternoon I was up a mountain a lot taller than those hills over there. And I was at the chapel where Lawrence's ashes are supposedly interred in the concrete. And I had no idea when I was 16 years old and just getting that idea of freedom and the ability to get out for the day and do what I wanted to do for the day there. And I had no idea that it would end up with me up a mountainside in New Mexico paying my respects to D.H. lawrence. But it all began with the cycle ride up onto Dundrie. And that sense of inimitable freedom.

[Host]

That's wonderful. We could go on forever. But you got to end on a high.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. The last question is the same as everybody gets. What are you going to do next?

[Guest]

This summer I'm going to start looking for an angel. But here today I'm gonna go home, I'm gonna have a sandwich and then I'm gonna watch Doctor who. It's the only thing you can do on a Saturday.

[Host]

Fantastic. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk.

[Guest]

To you and to you.

[Host]

I really enjoyed it.

[Guest]

Good. I think I enjoyed it. I certainly gave more than my. I thought I was going to. Although I did have a feeling that those verses might be in there somewhere.

[Songwriter]

From Dundry Hill to New Mexico this 5,000 miles made us stay things stones each was a choice to go where freedom goes each one a chance to grow a desert rose? Like the tangy mo here unfolds? Neath those Fijian skies? That graced your path with gold? You've come to know footprints of love? As you learn to fall? Your nose is like a rose? You follow its scent? Until the end of the road? Hey, I think I'm gonna write it down. And then one day I'll read it back aloud. All of the moments and the stepping stones? All the friends and all the loves I've known? Come back to me as it unfolds? I'm back beneath the stars? That graced my path with gold? I've come to know footprints of love? As you learn to fall? Your nose, it's like a rose? You follow its scent? Until the end of the road?

[Host]

You follow it?

[Songwriter]

Sentence to the end of the road?