EPISODE 43: The Definition of a Mystery

Summary

Strangers on a Bench – Episode 43: The Definition of a Mystery

Released on July 7, 2025

In Episode 43 of Strangers on a Bench, host Tom Rosenthal engages in a heartfelt and revealing conversation with James, an aspiring father and professional chef navigating the complexities of impending parenthood, career challenges, and personal growth. This episode delves deep into James's life, uncovering his thoughts, fears, and aspirations as he stands on the brink of a significant life transition.

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1. Embracing the Upcoming Arrival of "Bambino"

The conversation begins with James sharing his excitement and apprehensions about his first child, affectionately named "Bambino." Discussing his ideal Tuesday—which he identifies as the perfect day amidst a typically busy week—James emphasizes the importance of finding calm and meaningful moments amidst chaos.

James [00:57]: "I work kind of irregular hours, so I wake up slowly... I just like to find moments in my week where I can just... be in a pleasant way."

As the discussion progresses, James reveals the couple's decision to discover the baby's gender, a topic that sparked extensive conversation between him and his girlfriend. The act of knowing the gender heightened their emotional connection to their unborn child.

James [03:06]: "And I think we're a bit worried that we might get attached to the idea that it was one thing and then it would be the other, and then there'd be like a moment of slight disappointment."

Despite initial concerns, James expresses how learning the baby's gender strengthened his bond with Bambino.

James [03:39]: "And actually it was nice when we found out because we felt maybe a little bit more connected to our child already."

2. Navigating Parenthood and Societal Expectations

James opens up about the societal pressures and preconceived notions surrounding fatherhood. He reflects on how modern fatherhood has evolved, contrasting it with traditional expectations.

James [11:59]: "But I think people are quite negative about parenthood a lot of the time. It's almost... That's become like a kind of trend."

Addressing concerns about materialism and unrealistic expectations, James advocates for a more simplified approach to parenting, emphasizing the essentials over societal demands.

James [11:29]: "I think actually for the first few years, money isn't that much consideration... all the stuff that people buy, you can buy in the first few years is complete bollocks."

3. Career Insights: The Life of a Chef

Transitioning to his professional life, James discusses his journey as a chef. He recounts his passion for cooking, the challenges of working in a high-pressure kitchen environment, and the frustrations that come with creative differences.

James [22:22]: "The intensity and the focus was something that helped me get out of myself... satisfying... you're being constantly evaluated."

James shares a specific incident where a colleague criticized his preparation of a simple salad, highlighting the importance of communication and mutual respect in the workplace.

James [25:32]: "Everyone's got a different idea of how something should be done. And that's... that's something that could be an issue in kitchens if someone doesn't communicate properly."

Despite the daily stresses, James finds joy in the camaraderie of his kitchen team, cherishing moments of laughter and teamwork.

James [24:22]: "What comes to mind is more just times I just had so much fun with the people I was working with."

4. Reflections on Past Musical Endeavors

James reminisces about his earlier days in the music scene, sharing stories of band breakups and the emotional toll of rejection. These experiences, though painful, contributed to his personal growth and resilience.

James [27:56]: "There was another band I went to audition with and they didn't go with me. But I just took it so badly at the time and I still remember that."

He also touches upon his involvement in a band that fell apart after a record contract was secured by a bandmate, leaving him feeling sidelined.

James [28:29]: "And it was going quite well. And then he got record contract, but he didn't take the band with him, so we got kind of shafted."

5. Personal Memories and Anecdotes

Throughout the episode, James shares vivid memories that offer a glimpse into his childhood and personal experiences. From feeding koi carp in a family home pond to playful adventures in Morocco, these stories highlight his intrinsic love for simple, joyful moments.

James [38:54]: "The earliest memory that I can remember in a lot of detail was going to look at a new house when I was about three... I can almost see that the orange and white fish kind of swimming past."

James also recounts a nostalgic incident involving his first crush and the regret of turning down a budding relationship, illustrating his journey towards emotional maturity.

James [36:46]: "I just said no. Like, even though really what... And then probably for the next, like, two, three Years. I kind of... went to bed going, what did I do?"

6. Coping with Emotions and Looking Forward

Addressing emotional well-being, James discusses the importance of expressing anger healthily and the challenges of suppressing emotions in high-stress environments.

James [25:04]: "Expressing anger is important, and I think that anger shouldn't be judged maybe as much as it sometimes is."

Looking ahead, James speaks about his anticipation of parenthood as a transformative experience that will shift his focus from self-centric concerns to nurturing his new family.

James [13:56]: "I'm excited about having my own family... it's the definition of a mystery. You have no idea what's going to happen."

7. Final Reflections and Future Plans

As the conversation winds down, James reflects on a significant moment with his partner that solidified their connection, illustrating the profound love and commitment they share.

James [43:58]: "I think I'm gonna say with my partner now... the moment that it became really obvious that we had a really profound connection."

Looking to the future, James shares his immediate plans post-interview, balancing personal responsibilities with professional commitments.

James [45:22]: "I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna talk to my girlfriend about how her midwife appointment went, and then I'm gonna have some lunch and eventually I'm gonna get prepared for big days of work over the next few days."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• James [00:57]: "I just like to find moments in my week where I can just... be in a pleasant way."
• James [03:06]: "And I think we're a bit worried that we might get attached to the idea that it was one thing and then it would be the other..."
• James [11:29]: "I think actually for the first few years, money isn't that much consideration..."
• James [22:22]: "The intensity and the focus was something that helped me get out of myself..."
• James [25:04]: "Expressing anger is important..."
• James [27:56]: "There was another band I went to audition with and they didn't go with me..."
• James [38:54]: "The earliest memory that I can remember in a lot of detail..."
• James [43:58]: "I think I'm gonna say with my partner now... the moment that it became really obvious..."
• James [45:22]: "I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna talk to my girlfriend about how her midwife appointment went..."

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Conclusion

In this episode of Strangers on a Bench, Tom Rosenthal provides a safe and intimate space for James to reflect on his life’s pivotal moments. From the joys and fears of impending fatherhood to the relentless demands of a culinary career and the lingering echoes of past musical endeavors, James's story encapsulates the essence of navigating life's mysteries. Through honest dialogue and heartfelt revelations, listeners gain a profound understanding of the human experience, resilience, and the ever-evolving journey of self-discovery.

Transcript

[Tom]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. Is there a day of the week that you favor?

[James]

You know, it's probably not a weekend day. Maybe I go for like a Tuesday or a Wednesday.

[Tom]

Straight in the middle there.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

If you had to choose between those.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

What would you choose?

[James]

Tuesday.

[Tom]

Okay. In as much detail as you feel comfortable sharing at this early stage in our meeting, can you take me through a ideal Tuesday? Lived in the world for you?

[James]

I work kind of irregular hours, so I wake up slowly.

[Tom]

Spy.

[Sarah]

Well, yeah.

[James]

I'm not supposed to tell you that yet, am I? Yeah, I wake up kind of slowly, have a coffee, have some breakfast with my girlfriend. I might go for a walk, I might play my guitar. But it's not all about doing for me. I just. I like to find moments in my week where I can just. Just kind of be in a. In a pleasant way, thinking it's the.

[Tom]

Absence of events that makes Tuesday potentially.

[James]

Exactly, exactly, yeah.

[Tom]

And are there any particular rituals related to the absence of events that you make sure you do?

[James]

I think the slow morning and coffee and having a chat with my girlfriend. Having some yoghurt. The yoghurt is very important.

[Tom]

When you have a chat with your girlfriend, where do you start from? How does one talk to a girlfriend?

[James]

It just happens, doesn't it? I mean, we like talking about other people. We like inventing elaborate stories about what's going on in other people's heads and why they do the things they do. And most of it's probably bullshit, but it's quite fun. And we might talk about work, we might talk about the things that are coming up. Can I tell you about things that are coming up?

[Tom]

Yeah, you can tell about things that come up.

[James]

The baby. Our baby that's due in the end of August. So there's a lot of planning around.

[Sarah]

That at the moment.

[Tom]

Bambino.

[James]

Bambino.

[Tom]

First one.

[James]

First one, yeah.

[Tom]

Fantastic.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

I mean, obviously a lot of questions I could ask about Bambino. What question are you not being asked?

[James]

I've not been asked where I'm going to send him to school, ideally, which is good, because I don't have an answer.

[Tom]

Do you know the gender?

[James]

I know the gender, yeah. That was a big debate, actually, like whether we'll find out the gender or not.

[Tom]

Is that one of the morning conversations.

[James]

That probably morning, afternoon, evening, middle of the night.

[Tom]

What swayed it in the end?

[James]

Well, I think for my girlfriend, she was thinking about that just incessantly and trying to work out what it was, as if there was some way for her to know without us being told. So, yeah, it was that. And I think we're a bit worried that we might get attached to the idea that it was one thing and then it would be the other, and then there'd be like a moment of slight disappointment. Disappointment or readjustment. So if we could preempt that.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

And actually it was nice when we found out because we felt maybe a little bit more connected to our child already. It was like less of a. I was already here.

[Tom]

I like it.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

My general theory about people deciding whether or not to choose genders, often I think people are looking for an element of certainty in a very uncertain process, which I completely understand.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Yeah. I've actually experienced both sides of not knowing and knowing.

[James]

Interesting. How was that for you?

[Tom]

Not knowing? Kind of fun.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And actually, I always think you're kind of. You're always taught a lesson in some way, however you play it.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And I think with the first one, as. With a lot of first births, obviously don't freak you out, but, you know, they tend to be more complicated than second births on the whole. Don't have to be, but can be.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

It was quite a complicated birth at the end. There was lots of people in. In the gear, you know, around sorting out. And then by that point, just didn't. I just didn't give a. Yeah. You know, are they fine? And then. Oh, it's a gut. Whatever. Just didn't care. Yeah. You know, I was taught a lesson there.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom]

Which is like I cared about it a lot. And ultimately when it came down to it, I didn't care about it at all.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

So slightly wasted. Wasted energy. And then I found out for the second. And then so we found out for the. For the second one. And that again was a lesson.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

In that first was the girl. Then of course, you're like, oh, be good to have a boy, wouldn't it? Just even it out. Found out like, oh, it's a girl. You know, you're like, oh, okay, well, fine. You know, but obviously there's a kind of hint of disappointment. You just, you know, in your head, you think about some kind of dream balance, which is probably very culturally associated balance, which is bullshit really. But you just, you know, it's in. It's in our. It's in Us to think, oh, boy, look how that kind of completes it.

[Sarah]

Whatever.

[Tom]

And then second one came out and she's just, you know, as a human, just a complete tour de force.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Tom]

Completely different. Obviously, you think with the second, you think, oh, I'm just going to. I'm making. Oh, great. If it's another girl, I'm just getting a clone of the first one. Like, fantastic, you know, and again, lessened. You know, I thought one thing, I got another. I think that's kind of maybe a theme with just children generally.

[James]

And life and.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And life. You're exactly right. So anyway, that's. That's enough of my baby babiness. Back to your baby time. Yeah, planned.

[James]

Yeah, planned.

[Tom]

Both of mine, not planned. When it is planned, what does that process look like to you? Not too into a question, but, like, what does that mean? You just work with, okay, we're doing it. This is it. This is it now.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And then you just do it? Pretty much, yeah. What is that sex like, compared to normal sex? You know what I mean? It changes the dynamic. Right.

[James]

I won't go into, like, actual specifics, but it was different. It was different. I think it changed. Took us about three months. So it happened quite quickly, relatively. I think we started with kind of like, yeah, let's just, like, it'll just happen naturally. And then it didn't. And then we were like, okay, we need to be mechanical about it and have, like, times and things. And then that didn't work. And then we kind of came to some balance in the middle. And then I think that kind of facilitated maybe a deeper level of connection than we'd had before, which wasn't to say that we were lacking that, but I think it felt a bit more special. And actually we conceived on my birthday, which kind of. Which was a nice little touch as well.

[Tom]

That's actually lovely.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Can you tell exactly when? Oh, are you pretty sure?

[James]

We used ovulation sticks. So presuming that they are accurate, which maybe they weren't, that was the only time that we had sex. So let's say we did, and then we can keep telling another story.

[Tom]

Yes. I think that might not be true. It's worth it for. The stories are more important than the truth, you know.

[James]

Exactly.

[Tom]

I am quite intrigued about people's conception stories and how we're not that fussed about it. But actually, that's literally how the act of how you've come to be in the world. Do you know anything about your. Your. The one, you know, that got you on this bench?

[James]

No, I actually don't.

[Tom]

Has that made you more intrigued about. About it?

[James]

In a way. And then there's a lot of me that's like, really don't want to go there.

[Tom]

Because what if it was just something amazing that's really connected to your life, you know, like up a tree or something, you know, I'm not saying your life has been up trees, although it might have been, who knows? But just saying what if it was something particular? There's some pattern that helped you understand something. Yeah, it's got to be. Got to be something.

[James]

It's got to be something for sure.

[Tom]

What's your. What's your rogue without again having haunting thoughts about your parents. But what is your roguest possible scenario do you think they could have conceived you in?

[James]

This is all rogue right now. This is all rogue. I mean, rogue is possible scenario coming into my head right now is in the back of a safari vehicle. But given that neither of them have ever actually done that, that probably increases the element of rogueness.

[Tom]

Sorry, rewind a bit. They haven't been to the back of a safari vehicle. No, but that was just what popped to your head.

[James]

Sorry, I mean, you said rogue is possibly scenario, although it's not actually possible as it. Though I didn't quite answer the question.

[Tom]

With, like, monkeys banging on the window or something.

[James]

Exactly.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

Elephant tusks to avoid.

[Tom]

Maybe it's what you need to do for the second child. Yeah, there is already going, so I'm jumping ahead here. We've got to get the. We've got to get the first one sorted first.

[James]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Tom]

How preoccupied are you with thoughts of child as you go about every day now?

[James]

Very, very preoccupied.

[Tom]

Give me a percentage.

[James]

I would say. I mean, fucking now. 50% of my thoughts relate to child. And I think there's some subconscious thing ticking along pretty much all the time.

[Tom]

What's the biggest preoccupation for you when you're having your thoughts about the child?

[James]

Well, the anxious one is kind of the most boring possible answer, which would be money and stuff like that and how I'm gonna look after you.

[Tom]

Don't need any.

[James]

Do you not need any money?

[Tom]

Plot twist.

[Sarah]

Huh?

[Tom]

Plot twist.

[James]

No money required.

[Tom]

Sorry. This is a great unique chance for me to get out of my weird child theory. Yeah, I don't think you do need any money. You do. Sorry. You do. But I think people really forget a few key bits here.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

You know, all the stuff that people buy, you can buy in the first few years is complete bollocks. Like, you know, you don't need to. Like a fancy push chair.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

You know, they. They literally wear any that. They don't. It doesn't matter. You don't have to dress them in, you know, any. You can find any kind of stuff in a charity shop. They don't care. No one else cares. They just need to be warm. They don't need that much food. You then go out so much less than you ever have done. I mean, we're talking this. You're just going to slash, slash. You're going out by like 98%. And if you think of what most.

[James]

Money is, you're talking to someone who said Tuesday doing nothing was their favorite day of the week. That 98% might be a bit less than most people's lives.

[Tom]

It's a really good point, but no, I get, you know, there's like, you know. You know, on the whole, I think actually for the first few years, money isn't that much consideration.

[James]

Well, that's good to hear because I think we sort of felt like that, actually, and then other people came and put stuff into our heads. You mentioned societally enforced ideas. And I think actually it's not so much actual practicalities, but the idea that my life has to look a particular way. It's sort of some archetypal notion of how a father should be in the situation that he should be in that suddenly I wouldn't have thought I'd bought into, but it suddenly kind of flared up.

[Tom]

Oh, God.

[James]

So I think that's more like what I'm grappling with.

[Tom]

Fatherdom now is a changed game entirely anyway.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom]

Like we're standing on the dawn of. Standing on the dawn with dawn. We're like maybe 8 o' clock in the morning. We are like past the dawn of a new father time.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

So it all is quite fresh. Who are the figures who are saying this?

[James]

No, see, no one's told me I have to like, become a banker or something. No one's told me that. But it's people. I think people are quite negative about parenthood a lot of the time. It's almost. That's become like a kind of trend. It wouldn't necessarily have to be the case, but it is. And just people, I don't know making comments about, oh, you think it's not going to cost anything, but actually it'll be this and that and the pram's.

[Tom]

A thousand weight to the shoes.

[James]

Exactly. We've been given a free pram by someone. So that one's sorted. This is just neighbors who.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Who had them.

[James]

And they were like, well, you know, we don't need them anymore.

[Tom]

So can I do child care as well at some point?

[Sarah]

We're lucky with that.

[James]

Both parents live, like, just across from each other in southwest London.

[Sarah]

So.

[Tom]

Very handy.

[James]

Very handy.

[Tom]

Grandparents are very complicated things.

[James]

Yes.

[Tom]

Like, too much bad, too little bad.

[Sarah]

That.

[Tom]

That kind of. That bit in the middle.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

The grandparent appeasement sweet spot.

[Tom]

And suddenly they all become. They all get new roles and you've got to figure out the entirely new dynamic.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Of how it all works.

[James]

Absolutely.

[Tom]

And I think often, you know, mothers feel like they have to be, like, incredibly present. The kind of nurturing side of them comes back. And here we go. We're on. This is what I've been waiting for. Waiting a lot of years.

[James]

The nurturing side comes back, or it might actually appear for the first time. That's a lot of people say that, don't they? They're like, well, why the fuck weren't you like this?

[Tom]

That's a good point. Any other. Any other anxieties? What are you excited about? Maybe we shouldn't talk about anxieties anymore.

[James]

Yeah.

[Tom]

What are you excited about?

[James]

I'm excited about, like, having my own family. That excites me. That feels good. I'm excited about meeting him and being like, who is this person? Who's he going to be? What's he going to like? And then I guess I've painted this kind of rosy picture of the future that I'm excited about.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

And I think for me, the biggest thing is just like, I'm 35 now. I've kind of done being the main focus of my life. And I'm kind of really looking forward to this shift, perhaps naively, but thinking about myself in a different way. But, yeah, mostly I think it's just about finding out who he is and. And, like, getting to know him. And it's just such a mystery, isn't it? It's the definition of a mystery. You have no idea what's going to happen.

[Tom]

Completely. And I think also in a world of, like, you know, where there's this answer's being thrown at our left, right and center.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

An impending baby.

[Sarah]

Just.

[Tom]

It's none of that.

[James]

That's what I was going to point to. You said it's about trying to find certainty in an uncertainty. It's like, completely the antithesis of, like, how we're all trying to live right now, isn't it? So that's something I actually. Maybe I find that quite exciting too.

[Tom]

You said you're looking forward to not thinking about yourself as much. Yes, but what stage have you got to in your life about thinking about yourself? Now we're about to say goodbye to you thinking about yourself as much.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

What was it, man?

[James]

I don't know how to answer that without unpacking pretty much everything.

[Tom]

Well, you can start if you want or. I know it's difficult.

[James]

I found life quite hard. I know everyone finds life hard. I found it hard to find my place and to make things flow for myself in the way that I might have wanted.

[Sarah]

So.

[James]

So I guess I've spent a lot of time agonising over things like that and it's kind of not that helpful. Like the amount of agonizing isn't proportionate to the amount of progress. Probably the opposite. So I'm looking forward to.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

My focus being somewhere else. I'm kind of bored of myself at.

[Sarah]

This point in time. Yeah.

[Tom]

I think that's very nicely said. Without speaking up too many graves, what has been the key agonizing periods of your life?

[James]

Yeah, most. Most of it.

[Tom]

The whole package.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

Which is not to say there hasn't been loads of good stuff.

[Tom]

So what have you found hard?

[James]

Yeah, I've always had a lot of stuff that I've wanted to express in various ways that I found it really hard to do. Found it hard to get things out of me. And I've also just had a difficult brain to work with. It's a bit. It's a bit tricky, you know, mental health stuff and things like that, and then adult stuff like being consistent in careers. I've done a lot of different things. I'm a chef at the moment. But there's been other things I've really wanted to do and haven't been able to make work. So I guess like kind of classic existential things combined with the tricky brain.

[Tom]

I've got superb news for you.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Which is having a child is just completely the best thing for that.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

Everyone said. Lots of people said this.

[Tom]

Ideal.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

I just think, you know. Okay, slightly controversial point to make, maybe. But I do think now, again, in the. In our world, we just think about ourselves too much.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And I think. I think it actually, as you've just very nicely put about agonizing, hasn't made proportion any real great difference in the amount you've had. Recognized. Hasn't really changed anything. I just think that's the case mostly across the board. You know, there's. It's really important to think about yourself and. And to do the work. Whatever you want to say it, you know, can be really important. It also. There's also. There's always a point at which you're just going up against the wall and rebounding further each time. I just. I just think we live in the world where this is too much thinking about yourself. There's not enough. Just like, looking out in action. I suppose the beauty of babies, it just. You just have to dispose. You do it. It's just there and it's the focus. It's rushed straight out of you into something else.

[James]

Yeah, that's what. That's what I've been hoping. And I've. I have noticed that people who've struggled maybe a bit more have found parenthood transformative in a positive way. And maybe the people who've just sailed breezily through everything have found it more of a challenge. So. It's good to hear you say that. Thank you.

[Tom]

Absolute pleasure. Is there anything that you're worried about losing?

[James]

Yeah, of course. Because you're still carrying these parts who just want to not have to commit to anything, not have to have any responsibilities. So, yeah, there's reluctant feelings at times, but, you know, like you said, you've just got to do it, haven't you? And I think the overwhelming feeling is positivity and anxiety and reluctance, actually. Is there one that dominates? I don't know.

[Tom]

How you feeling about the birth?

[James]

Oh, fuck that. That scares the shit out of me. She's like, oh, it's gonna be amazing. And I'm like, fucking terrified of it.

[Tom]

That's the better way round of those emotions.

[Sarah]

Yes.

[James]

But, yeah, I'm fucking shit scared about that. I just can't get it through my head, like, how that. How that happens, so. But it does, and I know that. So I want it to. I obviously want it to go really, really well for her.

[Tom]

Yeah. I don't really know what to say about Burst, but other than, like, they're absolutely mad.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

It's a really weird role that you will play. It's like, impossible to prepare for that role. I think you just feel incredibly useless.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And you kind of realize a lot of things about, like, the whole of humanity.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

You know like what? Well, just about how useless men are. Just like, you're like, you can. You feel so redundant.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Like you're just there going, like, go on. Obviously not like that.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

I mean, just to give you a rough idea, All I remember is that my, like, my. I remember a lot of Stuff the birth labor lasted ages. It was a really slow one. There's kind of lots of twists and turns. Sorry, the first one talking and I remember kind of my mum, at some point she made me some like cupcakes.

[James]

Okay.

[Tom]

And I just like met her outside the hospital to get the cupcakes and just run back in. And I was just stuffing my face with cupcakes. And I was thinking at that point, I was thinking, Christ, it is different. It's just wild.

[James]

Yeah, that's what I've heard.

[Tom]

You know, I'm probably over talking over kind of giving you stuff. Are you finding everyone wants to tell you their kind of great advice? Is that annoying?

[James]

No, I don't find it annoying. I like hearing different people's perspectives on it.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

The stuff that you're saying is the stuff that I actually like to hear from people. It's more resonant with sort of the way that, you know, I like to think about things.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Well, I hope, I hope it goes as soon as possible.

[James]

Thanks, man. Me too. Me too.

[Tom]

It's. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say this and it's obviously it's my personal belief but like I think being a parent is just the most incredible thing. And I think, I think, I think people bit shy of like saying, saying that nothing compares to it, of its type and it's, it's a way of guaranteeing your life is never boring again. Anyway, maybe I'm over going on about that.

[James]

No, I really appreciate that actually.

[Sarah]

I really do.

[Tom]

You're now gonna ask about being a chef. Okay, park the baby. Let's park the baby.

[James]

Part the baby.

[Tom]

Or that you're waiting a call?

[James]

I'm okay.

[Tom]

So where is she now?

[James]

Having her midwife checkup thing.

[Tom]

You opted out?

[James]

Because this one's just a lot of like doing like blood tests and things.

[Tom]

You don't need to be there for the blood test.

[James]

I've been to every other scan. Just so, just so you know.

[Tom]

Okay, let's talk about you biggest chef.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Tom]

Because you're a chef.

[James]

I am a chef.

[Tom]

You've done lots of different things in your life, none of which we know of yet, but we know you're a chef and that's what we're currently doing.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Do you think you chose chefing? You know, you said it's relentless work. You know, it's like brush, brush, brush. Do you think you chose that because of the brain you have? Do you think that's like good for you?

[James]

Yeah. So there's obviously I got obsessed with cooking, like when I was like, 24. And what happened at 24, I got obsessed with cooking.

[Tom]

Brilliant.

[James]

And yeah, so there was the thing of just like, really loving cooking and working with. With food and vegetables and like this sort of natural thing. It was, I guess, like, grounding to me in a. In a certain way, which is ironic because then when you go and do that professionally, it's like the exact opposite of that, which I think a lot of chefs struggle with, actually. But, yeah, I do think the intensity and the focus was something that helped me get out of myself. And I think if you're someone who feels like you struggle to get enough done and then you're thrown into this environment where you can just tick off task after task after task and finish the day feeling like you've done so much. Yeah, maybe there was something in that that was appealing to me. I haven't really thought about it, but, yeah, satisfying. It is satisfying. You know, you're being constantly evaluated.

[Tom]

Of course, everyone's judging the whole time. Yeah.

[James]

Can be hard as well.

[Tom]

Well, how aware are you of that judgment from customers?

[James]

Not really. It's fairly rare that people complain about things. Yeah, the. The main evaluating, judging force is, you know, unsurprisingly me. So it's. And it's. It's the pressure. It's the idea that you're. You're going to let something up or let something down. I think that creates quite a lot of pressure.

[Tom]

In your time of chefing, can you recall a most joyous moment?

[James]

What comes to mind is more just times I just had so much fun with the people I was working with. Stand around all day making stupid jokes and taking the piss.

[Tom]

And there a lot of shouting.

[James]

Not. Not in the places I've.

[Tom]

I've worked. Have you shouted at all recently?

[James]

Not that much, but I've definitely done lots of shouting and arguments in my relationship, which, you know, probably wouldn't want to do, but it happens. It does, but, yeah, not. Not at work.

[Tom]

How do you generally release anger, would you say? Do you have any methods?

[James]

I don't have, like, techniques that I use. I think anger is important, but releasing.

[Tom]

It also important or not really releasing what Not. Or just letting it. I suppose, actually, you are right. I mean, it's implied.

[James]

Expressing anger is important, and I think that anger shouldn't be judged maybe as much as it sometimes is. I don't think we should feel ashamed of it. There's a difference between anger and violence, and there's a difference between anger and abuse. And attacking. And I think it's important to express anger. And obviously those other things, we really want to avoid that.

[Tom]

And do you get angry at work ever?

[James]

I don't get angry with other people for making mistakes. I got angry the other day at work because someone jumped in on what I was doing without asking me in a sort of passive aggressive way about implying that I wasn't doing it right. And it was a very simple thing.

[Tom]

And what was the thing that they thought you weren't doing? Right.

[James]

So I've just started working in a friend's place and one of the things that is a kind of salad. And what kind of salad? It's really just like some Lees dress with a balsamic dressing. Anyone could do it. You don't have to be a chef. And I think that he felt I wasn't putting enough. And so instead of just saying, can you put more in the salad?

[Tom]

When you say put more in, like more energy.

[James]

Lee's salad.

[Tom]

Sorry, Lee's salad. I thought he was like moaning about, you're not bringing enough love into this side dish.

[James]

Not at all.

[Sarah]

That.

[James]

And so he kind of jumped in and did it for me, which just fucking pissed me off because it sort of made me think, what, you don't trust me to make a salad? Like, come on.

[Tom]

Did you tell him that?

[Sarah]

Yeah, I did.

[Tom]

And how did that play out?

[James]

I think was the right thing because it diffused the tension. I didn't tell him it immediately.

[Tom]

You waited a few moments.

[James]

I sort of simmered for quite a long time. And then he simmered because I was simmering then it was fine. But yeah, he's.

[Tom]

Is it better now? Are you now stressed about leaves?

[James]

I'm not stressed about leaves.

[Tom]

I mean, in a sense, you could have just said, why so many leaves?

[James]

Why so many leaves? I should just get that on the picture.

[Tom]

Maybe I was right. I was right. I was right in the first place.

[James]

Everyone's got a different idea of how something should be done. And that's. That's something that could be an issue in kitchens if someone doesn't communicate properly and expects you to know what their idea of that thing is.

[Tom]

That makes a lot of sense.

[James]

You know, I've never thought about the sort of implications of cooking in my. My choices in this, in that way, as much as you made me think about them.

[Tom]

So I don't know.

[James]

Thanks for that.

[Tom]

Absolute pleasure. Is there anything in your life that you feel has become dormant, that you're keen to awaken again?

[James]

Definitely, yeah. I Think music's the biggest one. Before I was a chef, I was in a band with this guy. It's kind of his band, his songs.

[Tom]

What about your band, your songs?

[James]

Well, that's the thing. Right, That's. There you go. That's a big one.

[Tom]

You could call your band. My Band, My Songs.

[James]

My Band, My Songs, yeah. Why? Why no More Leaves? Why so Many Leaves? That's a good name.

[Tom]

First album. So you did that. You're with someone else's band, but you enjoyed it. You enjoyed it?

[James]

I enjoyed it. And it was going. It was going quite well.

[Tom]

You're playing the bass, Playing the drums. Drums, yeah.

[James]

And then he. He got record contract, but he didn't take the band with him, so we got kind of shafted.

[Tom]

That old winner. Yeah, you've heard that before. I think people don't talk about breakups enough. Like in stuff that aren't relationships. I mean, it's kind of. Yeah, you know, for sure.

[James]

Especially music stuff. Rejections there that, like, really stuck with me. So.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Any particular one that really stands out?

[James]

There was another. There was another band I went to audition with and they didn't go with me. But I just took it so badly at the time and I still remember that.

[Tom]

How did they let you down? Do you remember how they said that.

[James]

They sort of just avoided contacting me? They ghosted me.

[Tom]

Oh, yeah.

[James]

I was banned. Ghosted me.

[Tom]

Oh, that's tough. It's better to get the clarity, probably.

[James]

Exactly.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

So how do you undormant this side of you? I mean, in a way, like, now is the best time to do that because you've got so much, like, you know, you got so much to get out of yourself.

[James]

Yes, yes.

[Tom]

Apart from the, you know, the leaf. The leaf.

[James]

The leaf thing.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

I do songs around. Yeah. Around the time of babies. There's just like. There's so much in one's head. And some people would say it's like babies somehow. Like the depth of creativity somewhat even via. She thinks the opposite, I think. So much to think about and to say it would work for me.

[James]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Maybe it can work for you for your new band.

[James]

I hope so. I hope so. That would be really fun.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Would you like the next question to be heavy or light? If heavy was 10, light is one. What are you feeling in the mood for?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

Five, six.

[Tom]

Fantastic. What was the last hole you dug?

[James]

An actual hole.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

If we're not talking about metaphorical.

[Tom]

No, no, no, no.

[James]

My sister was given a tree as a wedding present and she didn't have space for it in her garden. So she said put it in. My parents and I went and dug a hole and put the tree in it.

[Tom]

Fantastic.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Just had a feeling. You dug a hole, had you?

[Sarah]

Yeah. Really?

[James]

I've dug a few holes in my life. I've dug a few holes.

[Tom]

What tends to be your emotion, abiding emotion when you are digging said holes?

[James]

I like. I like it.

[Sarah]

Like it. Yeah.

[James]

It's again it's. There's something about things that come from the ground that go into it that is just very peaceful for me.

[Tom]

Maybe we should. That's a. That would be a good kind of alternative to some kind of fun fair. Just dig a hole.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

Dig your own hole.

[Tom]

Get a spade. Dig a hole and then you can dig it. You stand in it. Everyone gets a photo. Whole land or diggy. Diggy time. And then they can. Someone comes at the end of the day and just fills them all in.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

That's not a bad idea.

[Tom]

That's quite a good idea. It's a shame we can only do so much in this life. I know so because like you know if I fundamentally, if I. I mean not to be too big headed but I think if I just dedicated my time to kind of Whole Land forever, I could, I could do that. Any mad ideas like that you. You wish that you had more time in your life. You're like oh God.

[Sarah]

If I.

[Tom]

It was a great idea but didn't quite have the time.

[James]

I wanted to get an ice cream van when I was 20.

[Tom]

Really?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Still time.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

Me and my friend had this plan that we'd get an ice cream van and we'd drive around the country in it and we'd pay our way by selling ice creams.

[Tom]

What would your ice cream van? You know, what would you hope? What would be the hopes and dreams of ice cream van?

[James]

I think I wouldn't around. But no, no Calippos. Strictly Calipo free.

[Tom]

I wouldn't fuck about. Calypso.

[Sarah]

Yeah, it just.

[James]

There's no cream in them. You can't have an ice cream van with things in that don't have any cream in. Yeah, all that stuff. All the lollies and pre made stuff. No, it would just be pure Mr. Whippy style ice cream. Soft serve they call it now.

[Sarah]

Yeah, right.

[James]

Pure that. Nothing else. Really good toppings. So it's quite a high end ice cream van now. It's becoming. But you know, whatever.

[Tom]

What would your ice cream van tune be? Can you remember the ones of. Are they the ones like.

[James]

They're blank. I'm blanking on the tunes now. Is it like nursery rhyme type tunes, aren't they?

[Tom]

They're the arches, actually.

[James]

That was the arches.

[Tom]

Yeah, but it's similar to the arches.

[James]

No, sorry, that's.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

No, I think I would go quite classic with the. The Ice Cream Van song. I think, like, you know, if you've not got that, then you've not really got an ice cream van. You might as well just go back to selling calypso.

[Tom]

I wonder how the ice cream van people feel about the Ice Cream van song.

[James]

Well, I think that, like, they're quite numb to it, actually. I think they've gone beyond even having feelings. Because if it's anything like working in a restaurant and listening to the same songs all day, every day.

[Tom]

Oh, of course.

[James]

You just don't even hear it.

[Tom]

Oh, of course. I didn't think about that. Which one song could play that you immediately are kind of triggered by?

[James]

Yes. See, it's annoying because it's a song I love. It's Take Five by Dave Brubeck Quartet, and it's a really good song. But for some reason, if you hear it over and over and over and over again, it becomes incredibly annoying. So that would be the one. I'd be like, turn it off. But on that note, I remember a time where I was working behind a bar in the south bank, like, you know, maybe 2013, and I had one of those, like, portable speakers. We were playing music. I just served this guy two pints and two of my friends came over and put on a song. I was like, what are they doing? And they put on a Hard fi song that live for the weekend. And I went, oh, who put this shit on? And I went and turned it off, changed the song. And then I look at my mates and they've got their head in their hands and they're like, oh. And I'm like, what? And then I look up and I've just served the Hard Violet singer. And I did that right in front of them. I don't even know why I reacted like that, because, like, they weren't a band that I. That I dis. They weren't a band I listened to.

[Tom]

And obviously you didn't know that was the.

[James]

I didn't know. And then I realised once I'd done that. So, yeah, that was awful.

[Tom]

That is a tough one.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

How long would you stew on that? You're a steward.

[James]

Yes, I'm a steward.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

I would have cringed over that, probably periodically for A few weeks. And then occasionally every now and then as well.

[Tom]

Could you think of any other. Maybe. This is maybe a slightly painful question, but can you kind of think of something. Any other moments like that where you have just thought about it for years after you go, like, why did I do that?

[James]

Absolutely, yeah. Things pop up into my head from the past.

[Tom]

I've got a really good one to share with you if you want to share with one with me.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

There was one. This isn't funny, right? But there was one which I cringed over, literally, for my whole life, which was when I was, like, five, my dad came home and he put this hat on. He came home from work, my mum was reading me a story in bed. He took his hat off and he had a baby bell. Cheese. And he took it off and gave it to me and I just went, I don't like them. And he'd obviously gone through this effort of, like, getting this thing for me that he thought he'd like putting on this hat, making this gesture about it. And I just. And it was one of these things I realized in later life that was, like, maybe that made him feel a bit shit. And I. And I sort of ruminated over that for years.

[Tom]

Is there any way you can turn up with some baby bow and a hat to. With. For his birthday or something?

[James]

I could.

[Tom]

That'd be fun.

[James]

I feel like I put that on.

[Tom]

See how many you could put on now.

[James]

I think I might have actually brought it up with him. I think this was put to bed. You completed that circle in the 20s, but that was, you know, still like, 20 years after it happened. So it stuck with me for a while. What was your one?

[Tom]

Oh, God, yeah, my one. My one was one of the first kind of girls I ever met, really, you know, fancied with someone when I was, like. I don't know, maybe like, 13. And we were in the same choir together and. And then I kind of. It dawned on me that, you know, she seemed to feel the same way about me as I did about her. There's a lot of bits. And. And then at some point, I spoke to a rat. I spoke. Real London scene. Pigeon rat, yes. At some point she phoned up.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And said to me, like, do you want to be my, like, boyfriend? And this is obviously the person you just think is, like, the greatest thing that's ever happened in the universe is this particular person.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And I just said no. Like, even though really what. You know. And I. I just. And then probably for the next, like, two, three Years. I kind of. Most nights would go to bed going, what did I do? You know, just like. Kind of like what a painfully stupid thing to have done.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

Was it just out of kind of fear of like.

[Tom]

Yeah, I suppose. You fear how to react.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Fear of everything. I didn't, you know, I hadn't done anything with anyone. Maybe I was just put on the spot and just like, froze and didn't know what that would be and was just like.

[James]

No, I actually have done the exact same thing, by the way. Like, when I was about 11, I remember the same thing happening to me. So I get.

[Tom]

Maybe it's a thing.

[James]

I feel your pain.

[Tom]

And then it just. Yeah, just. It was like. It's such a haunting scenario.

[James]

Let's move on.

[Tom]

Can you think of a moment in your life you can remember in the greatest detail?

[James]

The earliest memory that I can remember in a lot of detail was going to look at a new house when I was about three. And they had this pond with koi carp fish in it.

[Sarah]

Yes.

[James]

And they gave me this massive plastic thing of fish food to feed the fish with. And I can still remember, like, really, really clearly going into that house, walking through it. I can remember the color of the wallpaper. I can remember what the people were doing around the table. And I can remember feeding these koi carp. And the image of, like, throwing this fish food into the. Into the pond. I can almost see that the orange and white fish kind of swimming past. That's a memory that I shouldn't have in such great detail, but I do.

[Tom]

That's interesting. Why do you think you've remembered that?

[James]

I don't know. I think that there was just something about feeding those fish that just seemed incredibly exciting to me.

[Tom]

Look what you do now.

[James]

I know.

[Tom]

Still feeding.

[James]

Still feeding.

[Tom]

Still feeding the fish.

[James]

Exactly. It's just I'm cooking fish and feeding out to people now instead.

[Tom]

You ever had any great experiences in a lift?

[James]

Yes, I have had good experiences in the lift. I remember being 11 and going on this holiday, staying in this hotel in Morocco with a. With a friend of mine. And we had this. This game that we'd play. We used to get in the lift, press the button, go up to another floor where people were waiting for it, and, like, open the doors and say something to them and then bow, but then close the doors from them and then, like, go down. And then we used to run around knocking on people's doors and we'd do all of this in our dressing gowns that the hotel gave us. And I can't remember. We'd like to say, like, bon bonu or something like that, and then, like, bow to them and it was just. It was quite funny.

[Tom]

Was everyone else enjoyed this as much as you were? Probably not, but that was why it was so funny. So funny, yeah. If I say to you what. What one thing do you want to happen at your funeral that doesn't typically happen at funerals, what would it be?

[James]

I would like people to have a lot of fun. I would like.

[Tom]

What kind of fun?

[James]

Just, like, playing music and dancing and stuff. Good music, though. Not like.

[Tom]

Hold on, are we getting the call? Yeah, take it.

[James]

Okay.

[Tom]

Take it.

[James]

Hey, babe. Oh, I'm doing an interview. Yeah, it's very important. It's. Is your name Tim?

[Tom]

Tom.

[James]

Tom. It's for Tom.

[Tom]

Tim. Tom. I take you there.

[James]

I'll tell you about it in a bit. Babe, Are you okay? Yeah, sorry. Sorry. I'll tell you about it in a bit. I'll be back really, really soon. Cool. Is everything good?

[Sarah]

All right.

[James]

Cool, yeah. See you soon.

[Tom]

Fantastic. You seem happy.

[James]

She seems very happy. Yeah, seems good. She's just like. You're doing an interview. Like, what are you talking about?

[Tom]

I have one Midwife session and you get introduced. You can really freeze. Maybe she revouched that guy. He's getting a new job or something.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Or maybe it's like Chef Weekly or something.

[James]

Chef Weekly. Italian.

[Tom]

That's what it has, in a way, you know, element of that.

[James]

Knives and Forks magazine.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

So where we are. We were at your funeral.

[James]

Funeral. I'd like there to be a toy train for kids to ride on. You remember those things? Like. Yeah, that would be quite fun.

[Tom]

That's quite fun. It'll be hard to feel like. Too sad riding one.

[James]

Well, exactly. I think. I guess the general theme I'm going for here is, like, fun.

[Tom]

Do you think that accurately would portray the theme of your life?

[James]

I would like it to. I'm not sure as yet. That would be, like, the overriding theme.

[Tom]

I'll ask you one more question, then I'll ask you the last question, which is the last question. And then we'll. We'll be. We'll be done forever. Last time you cried. Is that boring? If it's boring, just say boring.

[James]

Boring.

[Tom]

Like it?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Thank you for saying that. The most significant walk of your life.

[James]

I think I'm gonna say with my partner now. The third time we met, we went for a walk around. Where was it? Brockwell Park. And it was the moment that it became really obvious that we had a really profound connection. And so I'm gonna say it's that.

[Tom]

One that's really nice.

[James]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

I.

[James]

Remember us hugging and it was just like. We hugged for like 20 minutes, and it was just quite a magic sort of feeling.

[Tom]

Wow.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

On a. On a bench, on a.

[James]

We were kind of. There was a tree that had been cut down, but the. The stump was still like sort of six, seven foot high.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[James]

And we're kind of leaning against that.

[Tom]

And 20.

[James]

20 minutes, I would say it's not 20 minutes. That's probably exaggeration. It was a long, very long hug.

[Tom]

And it felt like kind of timeless.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James]

It was special.

[Tom]

Well, I'm glad I asked that question now.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Thank you for rejecting the crying one. Okay, well, yeah. Last question for you, which is, what are you going to do next?

[James]

I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna talk to my girlfriend about how her midwife appointment went, and then I'm gonna have some lunch and eventually I'm gonna get prepared. Prepared for big days of work over the next few days. And. Yeah, the rest, I don't know. We'll see.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom]

Absolutely perfect. Well, thank you very much for talking to me.

[James]

Thank you. That was really fun.

[Tom]

I really enjoyed that, too.

[D]

Still make up stories about our day There hasn't been too much the sun in this light Something certain's on his way yeah, he'll be here soon yeah, he'll be here soon Tuesdays are gonna be quite different There'll be less time to stay in life sure, I'm scared about the things we might get wrong can't wait to see what we get.

[Sarah]

Right.

[D]

Cause he'll be here soon.

[Sarah]

A.

[D]

Part of me, a part of you and we'll be a three Just you, him and me he'll be here soon he'll be here soon he'll be help.

[Sarah]

Soon.

[D]

Yeah, he'll be here soon.

[James]

Part.

[D]

Of me, part of you and will be a three Just you, him and me.