← Strangers on a Bench
Strangers on a Bench
EPISODE 48: Outliers, Hugs, and Biscuit Thrusters
00:55:24
Tom Rosenthal talks to strangers on park benches, often leading to surprising revelations.
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- [00:04]
A
Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Is there a day of the week that you favor?
- [00:52]
B
In the last couple of years, it used to be the weekend because that's when you'd have university or work off. But I now work as of the last two years in a profession that requires me to work out of hours quite frequently. So my favourite day of the week tends to be the day that I have off, but that varies.
- [01:12]
A
Okay, so let's imagine a day off then.
- [01:14]
B
Yeah.
- [01:15]
A
Your kind of ideal day for. From waking up to going to bed. What does it look like for you?
- [01:22]
B
It can vary. Sometimes I'm in the mood just to spend the day by myself. I don't really get a lot of time to myself. And so when I get up, what.
- [01:32]
A
Time are we getting up?
- [01:34]
B
Usually later in the day, just to get some sleep in. Usually about 10 o'. Clock. And then I like just to keep the day at a slow pace. I like to make myself a nice cup of coffee, enjoy it, go into the garden, say good morning to my cat.
- [01:50]
A
How do you say good morning to a cat?
- [01:51]
B
Just lots of, lots of cuddles, lots of strokes. I speak to her. I don't think she cares very much, but classic cat, classic cat.
- [02:01]
A
What does your cat mean to you? Out of interest.
- [02:03]
B
So she's fairly new. We've only had her sort of in the last couple of months, but I didn't realize how supportive she actually is and how much she matters in my life. It's the little things like when she crawls over my lap and she'll sometimes just sleep on my lap. And it's just that there's this small thing that's dependent on you for love and care. And it's that sort of relationship that I enjoy. And I think that also stems from raising my younger brother, who I have a significant age gap. But if I had that role then of bringing him up, feeding him, caring for him, taking him to school, that sort of changed now since he's older. So having that sort of caring responsibility with my cat fulfills that in a way, just like to care.
- [03:02]
A
So you, you brought up your brother?
- [03:04]
B
Yes.
- [03:05]
A
Can I ask you about how that came to be?
- [03:08]
B
So we have a 15 year age gap. We'd been asking for another sibling. Parents were like, okay. And then he came into our lives and my parents work full time and I was in secondary school back then and I said, I can see it's difficult for you. I'm more than happy after school to pick him up from my mum's workplace and look after him with my dad at home. And I've been doing that for several years, into college, into university, and it's one of the most fulfilling things I've done, really. It was tough, but I think it just taught me so much and it's made me the person that I am today, for sure. Yeah.
- [03:53]
A
So you said you were campaigning for.
- [03:55]
B
This brother to be born because in secondary school a lot of my friends were one of five, one of six, I have another sibling, we're four years apart and we enjoyed each other's company, but there was a distance. He liked to do his own thing and I liked to do mine. And I think we were all in agreeance that it was quite a quiet household and we just thought having another child come in would make things a bit livelier. And it did. It did. We still say it now every time it's my youngest brother's birthday. We're always like, you were the light that came into our lives, really. I think we went from a family that sort of were very hyper independent, didn't really mingle at dinner time, didn't really speak. And then everyone had to sort of get together for this new child. And I think he was the glue for our family. Amazing. Yeah.
- [04:54]
A
I'm not sure I've personally heard that very often a child convincing their parents to have another child.
- [05:00]
B
Yeah.
- [05:00]
A
Do you remember saying at the time that I will do a lot of the heavy lifting?
- [05:04]
B
No, I didn't really. No.
- [05:06]
A
Oh, you didn't even do any kind of. Because you think that makes sense. It's like a bribery thing.
- [05:10]
B
All I remember saying was, mum, everyone has many younger siblings and it's just me and my other brother and could you just think about having another baby? And that was it. It was a very short conversation and really sort of me vocalizing that will take responsibility came not long after he was born.
- [05:28]
A
It reminds me, you know, sometimes you have situations as a parent where say, you know, a grandparent gets very heavily involved and sometimes that's obviously wonderful, but obviously they can be complicated because they have ideas and ways of doing things. Any part of your method attached with your parents methods?
- [05:44]
B
I mean, it was less relevant when he was an infant.
- [05:47]
A
Yeah.
- [05:48]
B
But more so I think now that he's a teenager, giving him the liberty to have his independence and explore things and make his own decisions. And I'm very much for that because that's how I like to live my life. And I suppose there's a cultural clash with how maybe my parents would want him to sort of live out his teenage years. So I think sort of experiencing that more. So in this current period.
- [06:16]
A
What's it like now? I mean, you raised him a bit like a mother would.
- [06:22]
B
Yeah.
- [06:22]
A
But you're his sister.
- [06:24]
B
Yeah. I think when he was very young, he struggled to tell the difference and was much more dependent on me than he was on my parents because we were so close. I think now the dynamic has more shifted from maternal to a sister brother relationship. And I like that.
- [06:44]
A
Yeah.
- [06:44]
B
Because I don't think I'd want him to. To need me all the time, of course. But he knows he can come to me if he needs to talk about anything. And I can see he's developed that relationship with my parents. So. Yeah. You know.
- [07:14]
A
We go back to your favorite day. We've only said good morning to a cat.
- [07:18]
B
Say good morning to my cat. And then I love to cook. I don't often get to have breakfast. I'm often just rush off to work. Oh, yeah. Because I try to get as much sleep in.
- [07:29]
A
Oh, fair enough.
- [07:30]
B
So I've prioritized my sleep, neglect my eating.
- [07:34]
A
How much sleep do you need?
- [07:36]
B
To function properly? For my job, I need at least seven hours.
- [07:39]
A
Are you a surgeon or something?
- [07:41]
B
I'm in the medical profession.
- [07:44]
A
Do you work in, like a hospital or something?
- [07:46]
B
Yeah, I work as a doctor.
- [07:47]
A
Okay, great. How's that been so far?
- [07:51]
B
I'm very grateful for the profession that I'm in. It's something that I dreamt of since I was a child. I come from a working class background. I'm the first woman in my family to enter higher education. So to enter this profession that meant so much to me, but also my family. And there are days that are very tough, very tough. And you can forget.
- [08:19]
A
Yeah. When you say there are days that are tough. Can you talk to me about what you find tough or how that affects you?
- [08:27]
B
I think some of the things you see often are quite upsetting. Often you have to deal with situations that are very acute. And on some days you have to deal with that back to back. And you don't realise in the moment you're absorbing that sadness because you don't really have a moment to reflect on it. And then sometimes you go home and it doesn't even hit you. And for me, it normally hits me When I have days off, like today, like, oh, yeah, that particular scenario was actually really upsetting and, you know, I might cry about it or I might meet up with a friend and reflect on it or go to work where I work with people who've been through that a hundred times and be able to dissect the situation with them. Or sometimes I just sort of close it off and be like, yeah, if I think about it too much, it'll just affect me and I just move on.
- [09:27]
A
Can you think of a situation that stayed with you at all?
- [09:33]
B
I had to break it to someone that their cancer reoccurred and I've done that on several occasions. But it's when you can tell it's completely like broken someone and they weren't expecting it and you know, they're with their loved ones and everyone's upset and then you just, you don't know what to do or to say to make it better. It never gets easier. And I think because I'm a very family orientated person, I always put myself in their shoes and it always really affects me.
- [10:18]
A
Yeah, it seems to me that you're obviously a very empathetic person. Yeah, you wish sometimes you weren't, you know, I mean, in that scenario it's quite difficult. Like you just like wearing people's pain, basically.
- [10:30]
B
It's a difficult one because in the profession if you lack empathy. Yeah, you can't do it. But I suppose in other areas of my life, maybe, yes, being very emotive and extremely empathetic and being quite satisfactory sensitive can be a detriment.
- [10:49]
A
Are you taught how to break bad news?
- [10:54]
B
Yeah, you're taught quite frequently. You're given a structure, a guideline, but it's very different in the moment because you're nervous or you haven't come across this certain situation before. So yeah, I have a different approach each time I do it. I always try to gauge what the person wants to know, what they want to hear, what they want from me. Some people don't want to know very much. Some people want to know everything. Some people are fine being left alone. Some people want you to be there and just stay with them.
- [11:29]
A
Do you kind of build connections with anyone? Is that tricky? Are you able to kind of keep people at a certain distance?
- [11:41]
B
I don't think ideally in the role you should be forming bonds per se because it is a professional relationship. It can be tricky. But I think my sort of way of building rapport with that person is similar to what you're doing yourself, sort of sitting Here and just asking questions, you know, now that I've told you this, how does that make you feel? And is there someone that you can turn to? And do you want me to stay with you? Even like, can I get you a cup of coffee, a cup of tea, cup of water? Do you want me to come back in a bit and check how you are? But it's difficult because often you'll do this and you might not see the person ever again. And it's that thing of that conversation often has a lasting impression on that person. So many a times I know people in my personal life who've had dreadful news given to them, but as well as receiving that news, they remember the person that delivered it. And sometimes it's a negative experience. The way that you deliver it and the way that you're there for that person, it has a lasting impact. I'm very conscious of that.
- [13:09]
A
So you mentioned you sometimes struggle with these really difficult moments and they stay with you.
- [13:14]
B
Yeah.
- [13:15]
A
Do you tell people that?
- [13:17]
B
Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I don't have the time to talk about it. Sometimes I just like to keep it to myself. But I do find it's easier to talk to friends and colleagues who are in the same boat as me and often they understand.
- [13:36]
A
Do you think people who are not doctors are kind of aware of that struggle? Do you think it would be useful for people to know?
- [13:49]
B
I think it's a difficult one because I don't know in what way other people can help. I find it really difficult to give advice to my friends who are non medics about their work because I have no idea how it functions. I can give very sort of superficial, generic advice that I would do this and I'd do that, but unless you're in that setting, that situation, it doesn't really mean anything. And I don't come from a family of medics and sometimes I'll open up to my family who are wonderful and a great support system. But again, it's that sort of generic, superficial, you'll be fine, you'll work through it, you're a trooper, you can do this. Like it just doesn't help. And sometimes, well, actually most times having someone who's a friend or a colleague be able to give me more sort of structured, more detailed advice and reflect on it and they can reflect on their similar circumstances they've been through and I learn from it. But I suppose just empathy in general doesn't hurt, does it? And I do think people sometimes see doctors, especially when you're in a scenario like A and E, where they're in and out, in and out. Don't think people realise sometimes we don't have a chance to eat on the shifts, we don't have a chance to go to the toilet. Then we have to approach many sort of acute or upsetting scenarios that I think sometimes people can be frustrated with you because they weren't seen early enough. I think sometimes people don't realise you've been on your feet all day.
- [15:34]
A
Yeah. That's a big one, isn't it?
- [15:36]
B
And it's sometimes difficult to vocalize, you know, and that's not only sort of patients that can also be your colleagues. There can be sort of a lack of empathy from all angles, really, in the medical setting.
- [15:52]
A
I was just thinking, is there a role in a. In a hospital for like a kind of runner that's like running between people, just like, feeding them food, you know, as they go between different stages.
- [16:03]
B
Medical professionals.
- [16:04]
A
Yeah. It's like they've got this. This, like, person has loads of biscuits. You just, like, pull it out of their pocket. I've had, like, a biscuit. Shove a biscuit in your mouth.
- [16:12]
B
Well, sometimes I've worked with people who do that. When I first started out as a doctor, one of my more senior colleagues had paged me and I thought they were going to ask me to do something and I was already really tired and they were like, now I've got some cake for you to pick up, because I know you haven't taken a break and I know you never do.
- [16:34]
A
Yeah.
- [16:35]
B
And that I found quite sweet. But in terms of actually having someone get a spoon and shovel piece of food in our mouth, I mean, I'd quite appreciate that. Yeah.
- [16:46]
A
I'm going to revolutionize a. Yeah. Maybe the Biscuit Thruster.
- [16:50]
B
Yeah, Biscuit Thruster. Yeah. Yeah, That's a good idea.
- [16:55]
A
I mean, I would be well up for that. Quite. I just think, what a role.
- [16:58]
B
Yeah.
- [16:59]
A
You just definitely know you're doing a good thing.
- [17:01]
B
Yeah.
- [17:08]
A
What's it like being a kind of family outlier?
- [17:13]
B
There's pressure because I'm also the older sibling. My mum always vocalized to me that her biggest dream was for me to be educated and make something of my life and sort of be. Yeah. Change the family from here onwards. And I was excited to take on that role that I think, on reflection, it led to sort of an obsession of being a perfectionist, really. This was an expectation my family had of me and I wanted to make them happy because it's their Dream as well. But I think I just. I sacrificed many parts of myself for it. I think now I'm sort of taking the steps to fill in those gaps of where I'd neglected myself in my childhood, really, and sort of what you call the good years, where you have fun and you explore and you delve into different things and you learn and you grow. I think I sort of missed a bit of that as well as taking on that maternal role with my younger sibling again. Would never sort of change it, but it's sort of those two things. It sort of made me neglect other aspects. Yeah.
- [18:31]
A
What do you think needs to be kind of put back? And how are you going to do that?
- [18:36]
B
I think, like I said, I always strive for perfectionism, being the best at everything. And now I'm just sort of saying, just be kind to yourself. You're only human. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to disappoint. It's okay for your parents not to see eye to eye with what you want. It's okay to want your own thing. It's okay to have your own ideas.
- [19:04]
A
Yeah. Have you told your parents this.
- [19:08]
B
Subtly?
- [19:10]
A
Do you need to do it more directly?
- [19:15]
B
I strike a balance, to be fair, between living up to my family's expectation and making my parents proud and happy, but also taking the steps to live life the way that I want to. And it's still a really difficult balance. I still don't know how to truthfully do it.
- [19:37]
A
Do you feel like you. You play enough?
- [19:41]
B
I think I'm doing that now. Now that I've achieved my goals and fulfilled my responsibilities, and I'm now spending that time letting light into my life and. And I've only really started that journey in the last couple of months.
- [19:58]
A
Okay. Is there anything you're keen to try in this new era of potential lightness?
- [20:05]
B
I want to write a book.
- [20:07]
A
Okay, here we go.
- [20:09]
B
I've always been an artistic person. I don't consider myself to be a very structured person, although I've done that in my life, fulfilling these many responsibilities. I'm very sort of very hippie in my interests and my thoughts and my ideas about things. So I love reading, I love watching films. I used to love acting when I was little, but I don't know if I could do that anymore. But I think writing a book would be something I'd feel comfortable with.
- [20:47]
A
Can you start? I mean, the book.
- [20:49]
B
I have just. As of yesterday.
- [20:51]
A
Yesterday.
- [20:51]
B
I've written a sentence or two.
- [20:53]
A
There we go. That's a start.
- [20:55]
B
Sort of when I had a break yesterday.
- [20:57]
A
That's fantastic. At work.
- [20:58]
B
At work.
- [20:58]
A
Oh my God. Wow.
- [20:59]
B
Yeah.
- [21:01]
A
You know what? Start the novel.
- [21:02]
B
Well, for several years I've had thoughts about what I'd write a book about. I've just, I'm a big daydreamer.
- [21:10]
A
Yeah.
- [21:10]
B
So these thoughts just randomly appear in my head. But I've only just started to actually write it down. Whether I'll actually stick to it, I'm not quite sure because I'm quite poor at that.
- [21:22]
A
But you've stuck to stuff very strongly in your life. You wouldn't be where you are now. So you can stick to other stuff.
- [21:28]
B
I think it's about having that confidence that I'm good enough to do it. Getting good grades as a formula to it. You learn it, memorize it, you do it. There's a high likelihood you're going to succeed in it.
- [21:39]
A
Yeah.
- [21:39]
B
But I think with the arts that nervousness is what I'm writing is absolute rubbish. And will people like it? Will people value it? Will people see what you see? So it's that having that confidence to be like, actually what I'm writing is good enough.
- [21:53]
A
I think you just got to do it.
- [21:54]
B
Yeah.
- [21:55]
A
You know, small steps. You write, you know, write a couple of chats or something.
- [21:58]
B
Yeah.
- [21:59]
A
Find a couple of people who you trust.
- [22:00]
B
Yeah.
- [22:01]
A
Here's where I'm at mentally with it. You know, I'm new to it. They'll know you and be sensitive to you and, and you'll know more and then you just build that confidence slowly and then keep going.
- [22:15]
B
Yeah.
- [22:15]
A
You know, is there any reason why you started yesterday? I'm interested in.
- [22:19]
B
Well, I've only sort of recently becoming more mindful and looking after myself. And I think in this day and age, in this generation, when you have periods of time to yourself, you doom scrolling, you know, you're wasting that time.
- [22:33]
A
Are you a big scroller?
- [22:35]
B
Yeah.
- [22:36]
A
You don't strike me as a scroller.
- [22:38]
B
I know.
- [22:40]
A
Don't give me scroller vibes.
- [22:41]
B
Well, I never had social media until I was 26.
- [22:45]
A
Oh, wow.
- [22:46]
B
So you're late, late, very late. And then should never have started. I should never started, but I'm trying to get out of that. And so yeah, it was just as of yesterday, I was just like, actually, why not invest time in something I'm actually interested in?
- [23:00]
A
I think it's a very good idea.
- [23:02]
B
Yeah.
- [23:02]
A
I think you should definitely do it. So at some point your mother was like, I want you to be the person who changes the momentum, the Trajectory, Sorry, of the family, full stop.
- [23:31]
B
Yeah.
- [23:32]
A
What age would you have been at that time?
- [23:35]
B
11.
- [23:37]
A
Young. Yeah, it's really young, isn't it? And difficult question but like if she says nothing at that point, what do you think your life looks like now?
- [23:53]
B
Different. I probably would have done a different degree. I probably would have gone into some. Something more artistic. Probably would have thought about doing a year abroad somewhere. I love traveling so I probably would have done a gap here. But there was never any pressure to be a high achiever. I think that's just part of my personality as opposed to trees.
- [24:27]
A
And so do you think your mum, she saw something you needed to say that?
- [24:31]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [24:32]
A
Do you have any sense of ill will towards that moment or that timing? Do you think that was too young? Do you think that was too much?
- [24:44]
B
Sometimes, yes. But I think as I've grown older I've started to put myself in my parents shoes. I mean my mum herself came from very little. She got married when she was 17 to my dad. She wasn't allowed to even finish school and she grew up with the consequences of that. And I know her intention was and is that she just wants me to live the best life possible. And she saw higher education means you have financial stability and yes, there are hardships with that and you sacrifice a lot but then you can live your life really however you want with that, you can travel with that. You have more options to do things in your life. And when we talk about it now, it just makes her so happy and she's so proud that I don't see it as a sacrifice. I see it as leverage into building a better life for us as a family. My mum goes around telling people with joy, you know, my daughter's a doctor and she likes the respect that she gets from that. She likes how proud other people are and how it makes our extended family proud and how people talk about it. Not something that necessarily gives me a lot of excitement or it sort of, you know, I don't use that as an ego boost or anything personally for myself, but it's the joy and happiness it gives her. I suppose our happiness is somehow interconnected. We're so similar, me and my mom. I forget we're different people. I know that's a really strange thing to say, but we're both equally as sensitive and introspective and we're reflective and sometimes it's really. It's an odd thing to say but sort of differentiate between me and my mom.
- [26:49]
A
But you haven't got married at 17.
- [26:51]
B
I guess. No. No, no. And I think my mom would have been mortified, but I Suppose Now I'm 28 and I'm not. That's a conversation of my life.
- [27:09]
A
What. How are you fixed? You know, love wise, You. You got so. Got anyone in your life?
- [27:14]
B
I haven't. And I've never been with anyone in my life. And I'm 28. And when I was younger, when I was like 20, 21, that didn't mean a lot to me because I thought, I've got time. And then time just flew by. That something that I'm thinking about a lot is sort of relationships and marriage. Because I never thought I'd be in this situation.
- [27:44]
A
Do you think it's happened?
- [27:46]
B
It's complicated because I believe in courting. So sort of dating with the intention of marriage.
- [27:54]
A
Okay.
- [27:55]
B
And that can be really difficult to vocalize.
- [27:59]
A
Yeah. What do you mean by that? Like courting with the intention to marry.
- [28:04]
B
So I practice a certain faith. I grew up in the faith. I followed it since I was young.
- [28:10]
A
Can you say what this faith is?
- [28:12]
B
I'm Muslim. And so I always grew up being told when you meet someone in a romantic sense, when you are talking to someone, you know, it's with the intention of if things go well, that we should get married. Because in the faith we don't. We don't believe in boyfriend and girlfriend.
- [28:34]
A
So you just skip that stage.
- [28:35]
B
You skip that stage. It's sort of a really prolonged talking stage. And then you get married. Yeah.
- [28:40]
A
Do you think there's any benefit in the boyfriend, girlfriend stage?
- [28:44]
B
I think it's difficult because living in England, where you're exposed to music and movies, all you see is sort of romantic relationships in the context of boyfriend and girlfriend. And when you grow up, you think you want that, and then you go home and you have your own cultural practices and that clashes. And when I was younger, I was quite stubborn about it. In my mind that. No, I think I want to approach it like I see it in the movies and then in songs and things and how my friends might do it. But I see a value to courtship. As I've gotten older, I think that's how I'd want to approach it. I've always been like, I want to meet the one and that's it.
- [29:26]
A
And you just haven't met that person?
- [29:28]
B
No, haven't met that person.
- [29:30]
A
How hard have you tried?
- [29:32]
B
Not the hardest. I think as the years have gone by, my social life has diminished again. My work is such chaotic hours that when I have days off, I'M not really thinking about that. How am I going to meet someone? It's. It's more. So how can I just look after myself and recuperate?
- [29:52]
A
Of course. Do you think you need to. Could it be someone of any faith you could find as long as they were into that system or. That's not how it works.
- [30:01]
B
So I think that's where the difficulty lies. Because my pool is restricted. I'd want to be with someone the same faith as me. That's important. And that's not because someone's telling me. It's because I want that. I'd want someone who understands the way that I grew up, the way my family practiced the faith. And also we share the same values so that when we have children, we raise them the same way. You know, sort of seeing it from the outside. Relationships are tough enough, I think, to add that in the mix. Understand of having constant conflict would be difficult.
- [30:39]
A
Yeah. I mean, be contrary here.
- [30:43]
B
Okay.
- [30:44]
A
And obviously completely understand. I feel like if someone really loves you and respects you, you know, they will shift their things to meet what you need to be met. You know? I don't know. I feel like. Is this like too much of a limitation?
- [31:02]
B
Yeah. Because I think it would upset my family. It would completely break down my family.
- [31:12]
A
Do you think so? Like completely?
- [31:13]
B
Yeah.
- [31:14]
A
Wow.
- [31:15]
B
It's. It's not as simple and it's just not mine. It's. It's. That. That's. That would be a common thing.
- [31:21]
A
Yeah. But let's imagine. So. One more annoying question. If I moved you to another country, there's no family around anywhere.
- [31:27]
B
Yeah.
- [31:27]
A
And families wasn't there.
- [31:28]
B
Yeah.
- [31:29]
A
Would that be.
- [31:34]
B
I'd still want to be with someone with the same faith as me because it's what I want. And also don't want to impose my faith on anyone. I think that's important to me. I think I'd rather meet someone on the similar wavelength from the same faith and we share that life together rather than meeting someone completely different. Because I have friends who've done it and it's very difficult. I've heard of all the hardships along the way that they've had to go through. I just wouldn't want to do that. I think I just value peace a lot more.
- [32:04]
A
Totally fair.
- [32:05]
B
So I think.
- [32:06]
A
Sorry for asking. Annoying question.
- [32:07]
B
That's okay. You know. That's okay.
- [32:12]
A
So where. So where do you find. Where are you going to find someone? How's this work?
- [32:17]
B
I. I don't know. But I think that's the beauty of life. Isn't it? Everyone has different journeys. Some people, they meet people when they're younger, and some people just happens when they're older. I still have hope that I'm gonna meet someone in an organic way. I don't know. Well, it's difficult because I'd like to vet them. So I think, for instance, meeting someone spontaneously in a park, I don't know if I'd say yes because I really need to vet someone.
- [32:48]
A
You could bet. Someone in the park.
- [32:50]
B
Yeah.
- [32:50]
A
Answer two questions.
- [32:51]
B
Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Yeah. I don't know where I'd meet them. I don't know. But I'm. I'm trying to. I'm trying to go by the approach that life is magical.
- [33:04]
A
It is. But also sometimes you have to inject it with magic. As in, like, if I didn't approach you today, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The point is, like, you know, sometimes to get the magic, you better do some stuff.
- [33:17]
B
But I think on reflection of my life, the more I've tried hard at something, the more it's backfired, really, the more resistance I have. For instance, when I got into medical school, I got in the second time around. Three years later, after applying, okay. I just let it go. I just sort of applied, shut my eyes. And then it was on Christmas Day that I got the email to say that I'd gotten in. And there have been many instances in my life like that where I've just sort of let go, I've made peace with it, and then that thing just came into my life quite easily.
- [33:54]
A
Interesting.
- [33:55]
B
Yeah.
- [33:55]
A
I mean, I don't totally agree with you.
- [33:57]
B
Yeah, yeah, but that's.
- [33:59]
A
I mean, I totally get what you're saying. I just think. I think, oddly enough, I think romance is something that exists in its own sphere.
- [34:05]
B
Okay.
- [34:06]
A
I kind of believe it needs its own rules. I completely see what you're saying.
- [34:11]
B
Yeah.
- [34:11]
A
But also, we're dealing with, you know, it hasn't come to you.
- [34:14]
B
Yeah.
- [34:14]
A
So sometimes when it hasn't come, then you have to operate in a different way to the activate.
- [34:19]
B
What do you suggest I should do?
- [34:23]
A
So I think you just have to be a bit more proactive.
- [34:25]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:26]
A
Like, I mean, as simple as that. Like, I don't know what. I don't know what that means to you, what that proaction would be, but I just think, whatever it is, I think you've got to just be a bit more.
- [34:35]
B
Was she? Yeah. I've been told I'm not a flirtatious person, and I completely agree. I'M not one to put myself out there. I'm quite a reserved person. And also I like to build something off a friendship. I don't. I wouldn't want to jump into something romantically. So the thought of. Yeah, just going back to the park.
- [34:53]
A
But even to get that friendship going, you have to be proactive. You don't have to be great at flirting or anything. I'm not really. It's more just like the intention.
- [35:02]
B
It's difficult. Like I said, I have a certain criteria. It's that difficulty. Where do I put myself out there, where I'm meeting people who feel that fulfill that requirement. That's tricky. Because if I didn't have that, it would be so much easier. But I do and I know that. That's why I haven't met someone. I'm not a dating app sort of person. I don't think I can. I like to.
- [35:26]
A
You've got a business card?
- [35:29]
B
No, but do you think I should put one out?
- [35:31]
A
Yeah, send me a message. Just gotta go for it. Not much to lose.
- [35:36]
B
You're right. You're right. I think maybe that's the approach I should take in life. Yeah, maybe. Because I think there's this thing where men should always make the first move. And I didn't. I didn't grow up feeling that way, but I have a lot of friends who feel that way. And I sort of. I've. I've become more like that, where I'm like. It's that thinking of, if a man really likes you, he'll make the effort to speak to you and approach you.
- [36:03]
A
What if this man is like you and then you've got, you know, then no one's doing anything.
- [36:09]
B
Yeah. And I feel like that's happened a lot. I feel like that's happened a lot in my life, really reflecting back, I think.
- [36:16]
A
And anyone you can go back to there is. Maybe that's what you got to do tomorrow.
- [36:29]
B
Maybe.
- [36:44]
A
So. Okay, let's picture a scenario. Like three eligible gentlemen, like in 10 minute intervals, kind of like walk past and spot you. And they're all perfectly appealing. They would warrant a meeting. How does courtship work?
- [37:00]
B
Yeah. I don't think there's any rules into how many people you can speak at one chance. And also we live in the generation. People use apps.
- [37:07]
A
Sure.
- [37:07]
B
A lot of people do that on there, don't they? There shouldn't be any physicalness to the relationship. That's only sort of within the boundaries of marriage.
- [37:16]
A
What is physical? Is that of interest? Like, was that what's the.
- [37:18]
B
Anything from kissing to being completely physical and physically.
- [37:22]
A
So kissing off.
- [37:23]
B
The off. Hugging. Yeah, yeah.
- [37:26]
A
No hugging.
- [37:26]
B
Well, it's. It's very different for different couples.
- [37:30]
A
I see.
- [37:31]
B
I have friends with the same faith who do everything and sometimes their families know and sometimes they don't.
- [37:39]
A
Yeah, I mean, I was just. I mean, just on the top of my head, so just.
- [37:41]
B
Yeah.
- [37:42]
A
Like, obviously, completely respect.
- [37:44]
B
Yeah.
- [37:45]
A
All face and all intentions here. I think, like, personally.
- [37:49]
B
Okay.
- [37:50]
A
The physical connection with someone is so related to the connection. Obviously it's not, you know, the whole package. I'm not talking about sex story. I'm literally talking about, like two people embracing. You learn something so much from that. Like, I suppose my concern would be that then you're making this huge decision for a lifetime where.
- [38:09]
B
Yeah.
- [38:09]
A
You're kind of ruling out this huge bit of evidence that you've got that or haven't got that.
- [38:16]
B
Well, someone can be a good hugger and be a rubbish partner at the end of it. I don't.
- [38:22]
A
This is true.
- [38:22]
B
This is true. I think you're right, I suppose, because I've grown up with the idea of it. I don't know any different. I just don't. But I also see it as quite special. Like you've courted each other for quite a while and then you get to have your first hug and how that feels. It's about that mindset that you were able to control that desire to favor your faith, abide by your values, and really sort of value the person and their personality because that takes a lot of control. And the fact that you did that together, it's quite rewarding and quite fulfilling. And I know people might see that as strange and quite different, but I quite like the idea of that. And I assume that would feel even better, you know, the fact that you waited for so long to have the first hug, to have the first kiss, to have the. Those intimate moments. Yeah.
- [39:26]
A
Totally fair.
- [39:27]
B
Yeah.
- [39:28]
A
Well explained. But you just still. I think you should still go through it.
- [39:31]
B
I understand. It's strange. It's strange not having held hands with somebody who's eventually going to be your life partner because you. You. And I agree. I think physical love is just as important as the spiritual aspect. You. You should enjoy that. You should enjoy the physicalness. But in the context of marriage.
- [39:56]
A
Totally get it.
- [39:57]
B
Yeah.
- [39:57]
A
Well, it's time to get those business cards made.
- [39:59]
B
Yeah, maybe.
- [40:00]
A
Or whatever that method is.
- [40:03]
B
Yeah. I have been thinking about it. I'm not. I'm not sure. I don't know what the best approach Is I think my friends have all exhausted ideas for me, my parents as well.
- [40:15]
A
I think if you know of some people you might quite like. And it's as simple as just like, you know, sending them a message going, you know, do you want to do this? You know, I mean, I just think it's worth. I think it's important to be in the, in the game.
- [40:25]
B
And again, I think it's a difficult balance for me to find because like, in a lot of aspects of my life, I'm like, right, I want this thing and I'm going to work hard towards it. And I've got a game plan.
- [40:34]
A
Yeah, just do that. That's something that has worked so far, but it's, it's. Game plans are. Game plans are. Okay.
- [40:39]
B
Putting yourself out there. The embarrassment of rejection. I think for women it's quite difficult. You know, the thought of having rejection is really like embarrassing.
- [40:47]
A
Of course, totally get it.
- [40:48]
B
So it's about that really.
- [40:50]
A
I mean, it makes you feel any better. Obviously not in the same situation of being a woman and being rejected, but doing this bench thing, like rejection is so a huge part of it, you know, but actually the beauty is doing it a lot. You just get better at it. And then someone rejects me now I'm like, oh, it's a bummer. Cause I could tell, you know, someone might be good at it, but hey ho. And they just don't wear it as much each time.
- [41:16]
B
And yeah, I think now I agree with you. And I wish I could go back and sort of try a bit harder. I'm sort of going back and forth between is 28 to have I missed the boat or is 28 still young?
- [41:31]
A
Because definitely so young.
- [41:32]
B
In my culture, 28 is quite old to not be married.
- [41:38]
A
Yeah.
- [41:38]
B
There's that part of me that has the urgency to be like, okay, the next person, just try to make it work. But also trying to be a bit more rational, being like, no, you've. This is an important decision to make in your life.
- [41:49]
A
I would also say this is maybe quite a heavy thing to say to you, but I say anyway, a large part of your life has been, as you talked about earlier with your mum, you know, it's been like something that's kind of been chosen for you.
- [42:03]
B
Yeah.
- [42:04]
A
And I would say it's really important not for that to be necessarily the case for romantically as well. You know what I mean? As in someone choosing you, picking you out and you going, yeah, yeah, fine, you know, where you take the lead and have, you know, as in That. I think that's a really important thing.
- [42:22]
B
Yeah, I agree.
- [42:23]
A
It's time to flip it around.
- [42:24]
B
It's time to flip it around, actually.
- [42:26]
A
Be the chooser.
- [42:28]
B
Yeah.
- [42:29]
A
I mean, that also kind of speaks to. You started a book yesterday, you know, you're choosing to do that again. It's like no one's picking that out for you. Nothing's going to take away the magic of two people meeting for the first time and all the amazing dynamics and things at play.
- [42:45]
B
Okay. Yeah.
- [42:46]
A
But you have to get there.
- [42:48]
B
Yeah, you're right. I suppose I always wanted a nice story to tell my kids.
- [42:54]
A
Yeah. But, like, it can still be an amazing story with how you. However you do it. No.
- [43:01]
B
Yeah. Tell my kids I print out a business card.
- [43:05]
A
I mean, that's good. But then there will be always something organic in the process.
- [43:11]
B
You're right. Yeah. You're right. Maybe I should look into it. Maybe.
- [43:16]
A
I don't know. I don't think it has to be.
- [43:18]
B
Rule out a few cards.
- [43:20]
A
I used to, in my earlier romantic days, do watercolors and then hand them out on the. On the train to people I like.
- [43:31]
C
What?
- [43:32]
A
Yeah.
- [43:33]
B
Watercolors of what?
- [43:34]
A
As in just watercolor paintings?
- [43:36]
B
Yeah. Is it just any.
- [43:38]
A
Oh, sorry. Yeah. I mean, just. I was really bad at it and.
- [43:41]
B
Did you get any success from that? What, really?
- [43:45]
A
Yeah. Because then you can write a little message.
- [43:46]
B
Oh, you wrote a message in there. Okay.
- [43:48]
A
Nothing like.
- [43:49]
B
Not just a painting.
- [43:50]
A
Yeah, Yeah, I was in painting. So, yeah, they just found me. Found me. And then just write a little thing. It's like, I hope you have a lovely life, whatever. Then you write your name just in case, you know, and then they can. And then again, they can just find you if they want. You know, you never know how these things are going to happen, but it's the planting of the seeds which is.
- [44:06]
B
The crucial seed, isn't it? Maybe I should. Maybe this is. Maybe we were meant to meet and do this, to sort of have that realization that, you know, maybe I've been sitting in the back for quite a while and being quite reserved and. Because it's something I think about all the time, even on my walk before here. It's something that I reflect on, you know, so maybe this was. This encounter was meant to have to sort of give me the nudge.
- [44:36]
A
That. And the Biscuit Thruster, of course. Nice. You're going to talk to your colleagues about that?
- [44:41]
B
I will.
- [44:41]
A
And your book.
- [44:42]
B
And my book.
- [44:44]
A
Three triple threat.
- [44:45]
B
Yeah.
- [44:46]
A
Three things to go forward.
- [44:47]
B
Yeah.
- [44:57]
A
You know, the chance of Us meeting and doing this is just, like, so improbable. This is a bit weird to say this.
- [45:03]
B
Okay.
- [45:06]
A
Sometimes I get feelings about people from a long way away.
- [45:09]
B
Okay.
- [45:11]
A
And I saw. Cause you were on that bench for ages. I was really. Quite a while.
- [45:16]
B
Yeah, I was.
- [45:16]
A
And I looked up and I thought, okay, that's interesting. Like, at some point, you were the only person up there. I was like, I wonder who the only person out there is. That's intriguing.
- [45:24]
B
Yeah.
- [45:25]
A
You know, and it's like, felt like a certain. You know, you get, like. You feel like a certain aura from, like, far away.
- [45:29]
B
That intuition to approach that. Oh, yeah.
- [45:33]
A
So weirdly, I use my intuition to approach you, and now I'm saying you should do yours and approach others.
- [45:38]
B
See, I love that. I love that.
- [45:40]
A
But that's it, you know, it's like. It is like there are miracles within miracles in that sense. You know, it's one that we just hear in the first place. But so easy of just, you know, not.
- [45:50]
B
I hope it's not strange to say, but it's part of sort of life being magical, even this encounter. I'm not. I'm not one to, like. Like a year ago, I wouldn't do something like this. I've always been quite reserved to really open up a lot. There are things I dream about doing, but the thought of putting myself out there and doing it just petrifies me. But like I said, I'm recently in this mindset. Life is once. What have you got to lose completely? So even doing something like this, I think it's. It's so beneficial for me, and I think it's only going to make me more confident in my approach to things in the future. Yeah.
- [46:31]
A
Yeah. And also amazing that you started writing a book yesterday. I feel like these things, like, you know, you. You know, one begets another. You know, it's like you're just like, you're in a role.
- [46:41]
B
I think this is going to give me the motivation to continue it.
- [46:44]
A
I'll definitely do it. Definitely.
- [46:46]
B
I. When I was younger, actually, I thought I was going to be an author. And I used to write to Penguin and other publishing houses. And I used to write on a piece of paper. Paper used to illustrate myself in my summer holidays. I had no idea how publishing worked. And I used to write children's books and then just get my dad to post them, like Penguin. And they were always so nice about it that I remember in return, I got a set of Roald Dahl books, or like 12 of them for free. They Were like, oh, lovely. I remember that.
- [47:22]
A
Well, maybe that moment will come again. Maybe there's no reason why you can't do all the things.
- [47:27]
B
Yeah.
- [47:28]
A
There's no reason why you can't keep these things alive.
- [47:29]
B
You know, I really. Yeah. I really want to branch out and do different things. And I always used to have a mindset, you have a job, that's your. That's your entire life. And now I'm starting to think like actually I have other interests and it's okay to do many different things alongside your job.
- [47:46]
A
Completely. And even like just you talked about earlier about, you know, kind of the weight of your job.
- [47:51]
B
Yeah.
- [47:51]
A
Anything also to give you a bit of a break from that 100 of.
- [47:55]
B
A therapeutic sort of.
- [47:57]
A
Yeah, that's another element of it.
- [47:59]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [48:00]
A
One more question for you, then I'll leave you alone. Actually, two. Okay, there's the aim question, which is why everyone. Yeah, I was gonna. I forgot to ask you earlier because we did all the kind of heavy moments in the hospital.
- [48:10]
B
Yeah.
- [48:11]
A
Can you tell me about the most joyous that you felt?
- [48:16]
B
I have a lot of memories.
- [48:18]
A
Okay. Well, you can do more than one.
- [48:21]
B
I recently actually. They're just spoil moments. I was looking after a patient and as they left the room and they were going to reception and I was heading back into reception to call another patient, I overheard her saying to the patient that I was going to get, oh, she's a lovely doctor. Oh, you'll love her. She's so nice. She helped me so much. And even though that might seem like a trivial comment to make to other people, you don't hear that all the time. And I don't think she expected me to hear that. I didn't think she realized I was there. So it's the fact that she was saying that just meant a lot. It was a booster for my day. It just made me feel grateful and thankful because sometimes you don't realise the things that you're doing are contributing to someone's life in a positive way. You're helping them, you're looking into things, you're making them feel better. I remember going home that day and thinking, this is a special job to have. You know, you are touching people's lives, you're helping them because there's not only a medical aspect to the profession, there's an emotional aspect aspect, a psychological aspect, a spiritual aspect as well. So that. That made me feel really happy. And we sort of flipped through multiple rotations and I recently left my hospital job in a particular specialty and it was just a colleague who I didn't really work with a lot. We did a couple shifts here and there. You know, I do have low self esteem where sometimes it's. I don't think I'm interesting enough or funny enough because to get yourself through these shifts, sometimes people like to use a lot of humour and I didn't think I was particularly interesting or funny or anything. We didn't work that frequently together. But he sent me a really nice lengthy message saying how much he valued me as a colleague and he really enjoyed our moments together on the shift and that he thought I had a bright future ahead of me and he'd hoped that one day in the future we'd work together again for whatever reason and that he thought I was a really good clinician because he's a couple years senior than me. So to have heard from a senior to say, I think you're really good, that meant a lot to me.
- [50:42]
A
Lovely. Okay, last question for you. Okay, then, you're free.
- [50:46]
B
Okay.
- [50:47]
A
You can either answer this in a now way or a general way. What are you going to do next?
- [50:58]
B
I am going to live life with more confidence and just put. Put myself out there. Do the things that I was scared about doing. Just telling myself it's really not that serious. It's everyone's first time living their life. Be kinder to myself. Let go of the perfectionism. Just be. Just be more human, really. And I hope from our conversation going forward, maybe by the end of this year I can look back. How. How many months have we got left till the end of the year? 6?
- [51:47]
A
6?
- [51:47]
B
7 in the middle, sort of in the next six months. I hope that I've done a lot more in learning things, doing things, meeting people than I did in the last six months, let's say. I hope I'm on the. On the path to living life a bit more freely.
- [52:06]
A
Yeah, I think you are.
- [52:08]
B
Yeah.
- [52:08]
A
Well, thank you so much. Talking.
- [52:09]
B
Thank you so much. I really love this. This was amazing. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Yeah.
- [52:25]
C
I don't know what to say to make it better. Would you like the company? Should I stay? I know it's hard not to shoot the messenger when she's free to walk away Leave work alone in the rain Wearing your pain like a cold I, I can't shake loneliness like salt on my tongue I'd write a book if my hands were numb oh, I'm everyone else's crutch My brother, my mother. When I'm tired at the end of the day Dream about somebody who could stay and share the weight upon the scene As I looked up Trusted all my secrets To a stranger in a park he said it's okay if you're letting people down the sun will rise the world will still go round if you're everyone else's crushed there's nothing left to hold you up when you're tired at the end of the day no, you'll find somebody who will stay Take the weight off your shoulders for a while While we wait Let me hold you for a while.
- [55:09]
B
It.