EPISODE 53: A Very Different Place

Summary

Podcast Summary: Strangers on a Bench

Episode 53: A Very Different Place
Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: September 15, 2025

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Overview

In this deeply intimate and emotionally raw episode, Tom Rosenthal continues his journey of connecting with anonymous strangers on London’s benches, offering them a space for open, vulnerable conversation. This week’s guest unexpectedly unpacks her difficulties with social situations, struggles with loneliness and the need for touch, and shares her journey from suicidal lows to hard-won resilience and hope for the future. Through gentle prodding and candid sharing, Tom and the stranger navigate themes of family disconnection, self-acceptance, emotional healing, and the subtleties of human connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Difficulty with Social Situations and Feelings of Alienation

• The episode begins with the stranger (“B”) expressing her immediate nervousness and recent emotional turmoil:
  • Quote: "Just been crying on the beach about that." (00:49)
• She describes fleeing a social event after just 15 minutes due to overwhelming discomfort.
  • Sought refuge by sitting with a dog at the party, which left her, heightening her sense of exclusion. (08:04–08:29)
  • "When I said hello to the only person that I knew whose party it was...I made a beeline for the dog...The dog left me." (08:04–08:29)
• Her self-perception is shaped by a perceived inability to connect, compounded by self-judgment and longing to be like others (in this case, “Lizzie” the social butterfly).

2. Family, Emigration, and Emotional Distance

• The guest shares her history of emigrating from Leicestershire, UK, to Australia at 15, leading to lasting feelings of not belonging and persistent family longing.
  • "We all emigrated when I was 15 from Leicestershire...I wasn't close to people even at 15." (04:00–04:16)
• Her parents now live in Australia, intensifying her sense of distance and absence.

3. The Need for Touch, ASMR, and Self-Soothing

• A major theme of the conversation centers on touch deprivation and the emotional impact of not being adequately physically comforted as a child or adult.
  • "I think we're all deprived of touch." (17:10)
  • She describes experimenting with safe, consensual touch with friends (e.g., practicing cuddling, playing with hair), and her interest in ASMR both as a recipient and potential creator.
• The practice of self-touch becomes a pathway toward healing and self-parenting:
  • Memorable Moment: The guest movingly recounts holding her own hands with tenderness:
    • “I just...held one of my hands, just looking at it and just feeling my hand...able to hold my hand like somebody else was holding my hand. Like a lover would hold my hand. And...felt this tenderness towards this little hand. And it was really beautiful.” (27:00–28:30)
• Tom relates, sharing his own upbringing and philosophies around physical contact.

4. Self-Judgment, Envy, and Acceptance

• The conversation spirals through self-consciousness, envy of more outgoing friends, and the tension between presenting one way (outwardly bubbly) and internal feelings of inadequacy or difference.
• Tom encourages celebrating personal strengths, not just fixating on what’s lacking:
  • “As much as it’s good to work on the stuff that we should work on, like, go celebrate what you actually have done and what you are as well.” (40:52)

5. Mental Health Crisis and Recovery

• In a pivotal, vulnerable segment, the guest reveals a period of suicidality and her path toward recovery:
  • “I tried to kill myself. I cut my wrists. I have scars. And I took an overdose...I didn’t really want to die. I just didn’t want to carry on the way I was carrying.” (41:34–42:38)
  • She describes multiple attempts over a month, ultimately pulling back with the support of family, therapy, and small but significant steps toward reintegrating into life.
  • “I didn’t want to feel any more pain. So I was trying to find all these different ways of killing myself.” (43:17)
• Advice to others emerges with urgency and empathy:
  • “You’re not gonna feel better. You just have to feel the way you’re feeling...Find someone who can hold your hand in it.” (49:28–52:00)
  • She stresses the importance of seeking help and the challenge, but necessity, of leaning on others.

6. Technology and Therapy—AI as a Supportive Tool

• The guest discusses using ChatGPT as a therapeutic outlet, appreciating its nonjudgmental responses and utility in managing anxious situations.
  • “I spoke to ChatGPT...he's like my therapist walking me through it. It’s okay to be not okay in these situations.” (07:14)
  • Tom is surprised at how effective AI can be as emotional support.

7. Self-Care, Ritual, and the “Ideal” Day

• Imagining her ideal day, the guest describes a day full of gentle, sensory pleasures and restorative practice, notably centered on touch, solitude, and self-care:
  • Early rising, aerial yoga, a savory breakfast, putting feet in a pond, a massage, and extended periods of nurturing physical contact (both with herself and professionals).
  • “I would just want to be held like a baby...just a whole day of touch. That would be like the best thing.” (32:01–32:34)
• Minimal to no desire for socializing in this idealized day, other than carefully chosen, safe relationships.

8. Moving Forward: Pride, Progress, and Healing

• Despite hardships, the guest recognizes her progress and growing pride in herself:
  • “It’s easy to forget how far I’ve come and what I’ve been through and where I am now. Got, you know, very different place.” (41:09)
• She names the friends who currently make up her support network, emphasizes ongoing social progress, and accepts awkwardness as a part of her personal growth.

9. Concluding Reflections: Catharsis and Next Steps

• At the end of the conversation, Tom asks: “What are you going to do next?”
  • “I’m just gonna go and sit on the beach again. Probably go for a swim actually...Cleanse myself.” (56:57)
• The guest expresses gratitude for the experience, calling the day “very cathartic” and marking it as momentous.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On social discomfort:
  “I turned up to be this bubbly person that on the outside I try and look like I am, but I’m not. And I really struggle in those situations.” — Guest (06:26)

• On trying, failing, and self-acceptance:
  “You invite people...I wanted to be different. I wanted to be like Lizzie... But Lizzie wants to be like you. That’s how life works.” — Tom (10:22)

• On touch deprivation:
  “I think we’re all deprived of touch. Not just me...We talk about it in my women’s group—how we're all kind of like talking about the fact that we are touch deprived.” — Guest (17:10–17:33)

• On self-care and hope:
  “I do feel like I will get what I want. I’m gonna get the touch I want.” — Guest (31:25–31:28)

• On vulnerability and survival:
  “I tried to kill myself...but I didn’t really want to die. I just didn’t want to carry on the way that I was carrying.” — Guest (41:34–42:38)

• On reaching out:
  “Find someone who can hold your hand in it...And you’ll come out of it, but you can’t do it on your own, not when you’re in that place.” — Guest (51:00–52:15)

• On healing and catharsis:
  “Very cathartic day I’ve had... momentous.” — Guest (57:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:49–03:07: Guest reveals anxiety, missing family, struggles with openness
• 06:26–08:29: Social anxiety at a party; solace in animals and fleeting connections
• 15:05–18:00: The power of physical touch; somatic therapy, ASMR, self-touch practices
• 27:00–28:30: The self-soothing hand-holding experience
• 41:34–42:38: Disclosure of suicidal period; moving through darkness
• 49:28–52:15: Advice for others in crisis; the importance of help and support
• 56:57: Closing: “What are you going to do next?”—guest opts to return to the beach for a swim and personal reflection

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Tone

The tone is gentle, unguarded, and deeply human. Tom maintains a blend of humor and empathy, striving to listen and respect boundaries, even as he nudges for depth. The guest is candid, reflective, and unafraid to show emotion, offering valuable insights for anyone wrestling with connection, touch, mental health, or recovery.

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For New Listeners

This episode of Strangers on a Bench stands out for its raw vulnerability, its focus on the small but essential rituals of self-care, and its honest, unflinching depiction of the challenges and slow victories along the path from alienation to acceptance. It offers hope, wisdom, and comfort—reminding us of the power of listening, touch, and persistence.

Transcript

[A]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. Okay. How you feeling? You're okay. Nothing to be nervous about.

[B]

It's just talking that makes me nervous. Just been crying on the beach about that.

[A]

Oh, God. Okay. Well, you're talking to the right person.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't want to overly big myself up, but I have done this all around the country talking to pretty much everyone you could possibly imagine. What I'm trying to say is I think I could be, you know, useful. Useful person to talk to. I'm going to say that quite dangerous early on because you might not agree when it comes to it, but. But anyway. You ready for the first question? You can't get the first one wrong. It's really easy.

[B]

Do I have to get them right? Is that the thing?

[A]

No. There is. There is the good news. There is no. There is no right and no wrong.

[B]

Okay, you ready?

[A]

Do you have a favorite day of the week?

[B]

Well, I don't know if I have a favorite day of the week, but I have a. A day that I don't like.

[A]

I like those people. Tell me Sunday.

[B]

Is it today?

[A]

It's not Sunday. This is. This means this is a good thing. Officially, it hasn't happened on your least favorite day. Okay. So this is. I'm always intrigued by the people who lead with I have a least favorite day. So Sunday's not your favorite? What? Because Monday's following Sunday. Is that the classic. No, just generally not. Other reason. Tell me. Sorry I jumped ahead there.

[B]

Because I miss my family on Sunday, I think, and I don't feel like I have a family.

[A]

Oh, straight in there.

[B]

Yeah. That's usually how I do it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Don't miss dally.

[A]

Yeah, honestly, big fan of that approach. Big, big fan. Okay, you said two slightly contradictory things there. You miss your family. You don't have a family. Can you make it make sense for me?

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

We're here now. Go for it. What is it?

[B]

Well, yeah, just. I don't know. I. I'm.

[A]

Say the words. Say the words.

[B]

I don't know if I should be doing this because I'm just gonna end up bawling.

[A]

It's okay. Many people have cried before and they'll cry again. Don't worry. I've seen everything.

[B]

Next question.

[A]

Okay. Can I, like, try and do a kind of a weave round of that question just to get a little bit of an insight, because I feel like what you said is too big to not have anything. You see what I mean? Your family don't live here.

[B]

Well, they live on the planet.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they're alive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But they live in. Well, my mum and dad live in Australia.

[A]

That's why they moved. So point.

[B]

Yeah. We all emigrated when I was 15 from Leicestershire. Cosby. Fantastic little village.

[A]

How was that at 15?

[B]

Well, I was all excited at the time.

[A]

What were you excited about?

[B]

Just being somewhere else. But, yeah, I guess I didn't really have friends very. I wasn't close to people even at 15. So our difference between.

[A]

And.

[B]

So it's really uncomfortable answering questions.

[A]

You're doing well. You're doing well. You're doing fine. Yeah. It's not. It's like.

[B]

It's a competition.

[A]

It's not. It is a competition. Exactly. It's like. It's not. It's not like relentless heavyweight things.

[B]

I'm trying to be boring. It's like part of me that's.

[A]

You're trying not to be. You are trying to reflect. Don't worry. Everything's fine. Let's just carry on. You do your best to answer the questions. We'll see how we get on.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So you went to Australia at age 15. It wasn't quite how you hoped it would be. You weren't enjoying it?

[B]

I did for. I. No, not really. I didn't enjoy it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No.

[A]

And at some point you wanted to move back.

[B]

Well, I.

[A]

This is intriguing. This is an intriguing mystery. What is. What. What's anything.

[B]

I don't really know what to do. What do you mean?

[A]

In your life.

[B]

Internal stuff going on with me. Yeah. There's like this kind of different versions of myself that are going on in my head.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's like, which one to go for?

[A]

Okay. If I can say something, go for the most honest. If you can. The reason I'm doing this is because I think it does make quite a big difference to people who listen to it. And it's shown that that's already happened. Now, when people are honest and open about certain things, that's a bridge for other people to understand themselves. Do you see what I mean?

[B]

I have no idea how crazy this is.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because of what I've kind of gone through today.

[A]

Well, then maybe it's meant to be.

[B]

Kind of approaching me. It's like bonkers.

[A]

It's meant to happen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell me what you. What have you gone through today?

[B]

I just. Like it sounds trivial, but I just went to this social thing and I was there for about 15 minutes and then had to leave because I don't find it easy. And I turned up to be this bubbly person that on the outside I try and look like I am, but I'm not. And I really struggle in those situations. And there's part of me that doesn't want to and wants to be different, but I'm not. So today I sat on the beach and I said all this to myself, and I spoke to Chatgpt.

[A]

And what did they say?

[B]

Just kind of, you know, he's like my therapist walking me through it. It's okay to be not okay in these situations. It's just not for me.

[A]

Going into day, going into that event, did you think that you would be okay? Would. Did it take you by surprise that you weren't, or were you?

[B]

No.

[A]

So you, You. You were anxious before the event?

[B]

I guess I overrode the anxiousness and thought, just push through it, you know, it'll be fine. But I wasn't. It was difficult to be with myself in that situation.

[A]

When did it dawn on you that you just had to go? Was it like kind of.

[B]

Well, when I said hello to the only person that I knew whose party it was, and then looked around and there was no one else I knew. And I made a beeline for the dog that was lying on the floor, sat with a dog and grounded myself on the ground.

[A]

That's a sensible idea because I thought.

[B]

I'd be okay with the dog.

[A]

Yeah. If it was a dog party, even.

[B]

Dog left me.

[A]

And that's when you knew when the dog had enough.

[B]

The dog doesn't want to be with me.

[A]

And so that. Is that when you left?

[B]

Well, I chatted to. There was a couple of young guys there, and one of them, he was very kind of asking me questions, like you. So I. I was.

[A]

You're okay at that.

[B]

No, he was attractive, so that was hard.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

Well, then there was pressure.

[A]

I put pressure on himself to be more appealing.

[B]

Yeah, I get it.

[A]

I get there's quite a lot of stuff happening this 15 minutes.

[B]

Yeah, you have no idea.

[A]

I suppose quite a lot can happen in 15 minutes. So are there any more people, any more events, and then there's 15 minutes.

[B]

Well, I kind of got up after a while because I felt disquiet happening, and then I could feel myself getting nervous and then walked over to Lizzy and said, I'm leaving. Lizzy I feel really uncomfortable. I've got to go.

[A]

What did Lizzie say?

[B]

She said, you twit.

[A]

Quite a good response. I quite like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so then you just ran out of there?

[B]

I didn't run. But, yeah, I would have ran. Yeah. Weren't people sort of coming my way?

[A]

Slightly controversial thought. Absolutely fine what you did. You're a free human. Like, you knew one person at this place. Talking to people is a weird lottery. And, like, if you want to be someone for 15 minutes and it's not right for you, leaving is just fine.

[B]

No, it's not.

[A]

I think it is. I think it completely.

[B]

It's like. No, it's not.

[A]

No, but it is. I mean, it's like, you know, what was Lizzie hoping for? You invite people to. Is it a party?

[B]

I was hoping for? Yeah. I wanted to be different. I wanted to be like Lizzie.

[A]

Yeah, we can't be like Lizzie. We're not listening. Yeah, but Lizzie wants to be like you. That's how life works. No.

[B]

Yeah, I guess.

[A]

Almost certainly. Lizzie wants to be like you. Want to be like Lizzie.

[B]

That's how life works. That's how humans work.

[A]

Yeah, sure. There'll be all kinds of things you have that Lizzie would like.

[B]

Are you therapizing me now? It's really annoying.

[A]

Not at all.

[B]

Stop it.

[A]

I'm not therapising you. I'm just giving you your opinion.

[B]

Can you ask me another question?

[A]

Yeah, sure. I totally can. No, but honestly, I think. I think what you did is fine. I just think it's totally fine.

[B]

I don't want. It's. I feel annoyed at you now.

[A]

Oh, no. Really?

[B]

Yeah. Don't. Should I say it's bad to say no? I just don't want you to make a judgment. Yeah, well, it's just boring. I don't really want you to therapize me.

[A]

I appreciate you saying that.

[B]

I don't need you to do that.

[A]

Okay. But then you headed to the beach.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And thought about your life.

[B]

Well, I know how to cry.

[A]

Yeah. How much crying was there? A lot.

[B]

I don't like your question. It feels like very.

[A]

Do you think the sea is more likely to make you cry? It helps tears because there's lots of water.

[B]

Yeah. I like sitting on the beach and grounding myself, getting my feet out and. And, yeah, it really helps me a lot.

[A]

Let's flip this around. You're one of that small percentage of people who answered, what's their favorite day of the week? With why? Here's my least favorite day of the week. If you had answered your favourite day of the week, let's imagine you said Wednesday. I would have said, take me through your kind of ideal Wednesday. Can you answer that question for me?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's move away from the tears and.

[B]

Get a really good massage with some amazing person.

[A]

Hang on.

[B]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[A]

Slow down. Oh, God.

[B]

I'll have the ASMR done.

[A]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[B]

I'm gonna go canoeing.

[A]

Wait. This is good, but. Okay, this is good, but can we. Hang on. Let's just pause for a sec. Really good trousers over there. Did you see those?

[B]

Anyway, no. You're trying to distract me.

[A]

Okay. I want from waking up. I want. I want a part.

[B]

Little details.

[A]

Correct. Details are good. What time do you wake up?

[B]

I usually wake up early, but don't always get out of bed.

[A]

Okay. What are you doing in bed? Slyther.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, so what time wake up? We haven't even got to the time waking up yet.

[B]

I'd wake up really early and I would. Oh, no.

[A]

What's happening? What's happening in this moment?

[B]

You're not saying that.

[A]

Okay, okay. You wake up really early.

[B]

I'd go and do like some aerial yoga.

[A]

Aerial yoga? Aerial, yeah. So in the air.

[B]

Yeah, hanging.

[A]

Can I stop you very briefly to suggest something? Feel free if you don't want to do this. I'm finding the music like a little bit distracting. How would you feel about moving it just a few further down? Yeah, that'd be okay. You can just. If you just carry that with you. We could walk. We could just walk down. There we go. There you go. It's going to be a whole new world now we're here. You're going to really enjoy all of my questions as soon as we're here.

[B]

It's kind of exciting, right?

[A]

Okay. What was your drink, by the way?

[B]

It was a milkshake. Salted caramel.

[A]

Okay. Was that after, like to console yourself?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That'S the job, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right, we're back to your aerial yoga. What bit is like you're hanging.

[B]

You're liking this hammock thing. It stretches all the way around you, so you lie in it. You're like swaddled up like a baby. It's quite an unusual feeling. It does feel like you're cocooned and it feels safe and you're just hanging there. It's really.

[A]

Oh, that is nice.

[B]

Quite special feeling it. It's how I imagine a baby would feel, you know, it's like being in the sea and held by the water and it's, it's got you, you know.

[A]

That's a lovely thing we did. I'm. I'm a bit concerned that we skipped breakfast and stuff.

[B]

Okay. So breakfast would be beans. You have to have beans. Fiber as in like lentils or pulses. Wow. Or chickpeas. Straight off, I have savory breakfast because it's really good for your system. And yet then I hit this sugar later on in the day.

[A]

You just get ready for your big sugar, sugar load later on. Okay. But then like, are you, are you got any morning rituals or anything? Are you?

[B]

Yeah, there's a pond in the garden, so I might have my feet in the pond.

[A]

Pond in the garden?

[B]

Yeah, it's fence spring as well, so it's kind of.

[A]

Wow, that's pretty cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you doing anything else? You just feet in?

[B]

Yeah, just with the newts, you know.

[A]

Like you're the newts hanging out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fantastic. Okay, so all these things build up. You're off to the aerial yoga. Are you alone, by the way? Doing it alone is aerial yoga.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. It's a one on one session. That was a tentative yes. We would take it. Then you've. Then you've finished aerial yoga. It's complete. You've done it.

[B]

I'd go and have a massage.

[A]

Massage to recover from there or just gently? No, just to recover because massages are good.

[B]

And have someone touch me. Yeah, that would be lovely.

[A]

I mean, obviously to say you like to be touched. It's a good feeling. Do you feel like. I mean, this is like, this is a question I've not yet asked on anyone on the bench, but do you feel like you're not touched enough?

[B]

Yes. I think we're all deprived of touch.

[A]

That's interesting, isn't it?

[B]

Not just me.

[A]

Yeah. No, I actually think that's a very interesting point. I actually completely see it. I would even go as far as to say I feel that too. What can we do about it? As in, like what? Like what are we doing wrong?

[B]

Oh God, it's huge. It's a huge thing, isn't it? I had a grandma who was very touchy feely, but my family weren't really that way. But I long for it and I'm very touchy feely. Really. But I find it hard. Even with my best friend. She's more touchy than me. And we do practice cuddling and holding each other and that stuff, but it feels still uncomfortable for me. But we talk about it and that's the whole reason we're doing it as well is to kind of get us used to that. And I go to a women's group and that's a huge thing. We're all kind of like talking about the fact that we are touch deprived. And I did a session where we just played with each other's hair. I can remember at school we used to sit and listen to stories at the end of the day. And I would sometimes ask a friend if she would play with my hair. And I would do the same for her. And I loved it. I'm into. I don't know if you know what ASMR is. You do?

[A]

I do. But can you say what it is for anyone that wouldn't know?

[B]

Yeah. It's this thing called auditory sensory meridian response, which is certain triggers affect our system. And when we touch or we even hear certain sounds, it can trigger this response in us. You can get tingles down your spine. It makes you feel very relaxed in your body. So I really feel really passionate about that myself, like wanting to do some kind of. Because I. I did think I was going to do ASMR videos and. And that would be a way for me to actually touch people. Because I do love touching people. But because we're afraid of touching, there's this whole, you know, kind of consensual thing as well, isn't there now? It's not, you know, like, we have to ask now as well. Like it's not. It's quite a difficult thing. It's kind of something that really interests me. I feel really strongly about.

[A]

Yeah. Personally, I'm a massive toucher. Especially people I like. That's part of how I just am with humans. I remember I asked my dad what was the most important bit of parenting, in his opinion, like into when kids are young. And he said, physical play, you know, just like as a kind of absolute core thing, basically like wrestling in a way. You know, learning what is acceptable and good and touch. I don't know. So I think he instilled that in me. But also being at parties and you're just like, I just want to. I'm just gonna go and touch your face. I felt. I felt myself needing more. And obviously, you know, it's like, you can't do that. But we could in consensual circumstances. But, like, if I could touch your face now, I would choose that over your shoulder. That kind of desire is in me and it's not. And it's completely not sexual at all. Where it comes from is actually like a kind of a Childlike. I can understand you better if I can touch you, you know, obviously, that's really complicated, though, you know, and, like, what you do with that and how that all works. When you're talking about it with your friend, do you feel like it's something you. You're getting more comfortable with as you do it more, or do you feel like it's like a kind of core thing which you can't really shake?

[B]

No, I don't think it's a cool thing that I can't really shake. I think it's a. I think it's. For me, it's like I have to be honest about what's coming up for me in terms of what's going on internally, because then it allows me to be more okay with those things, you know? Your experience with touch has been very different to mine, and I kind of makes me feel really tearful because I know my dad loves me, but we didn't have that. He didn't turn. Touch me in the same way that I would, like, I don't know, feel really emotional and. Yeah, I just. I don't know. For me, it's a huge thing. But I also know, because it's a huge thing, it's changing for me because I want that for myself, and I deserve it. And although it feels uncomfortable, I want to go there, you know, I want to do it.

[A]

Yeah. Was. Was there a kind of point in which it dawned on you that you hadn't had this touch that you needed?

[B]

I don't know if I can remember. There was a point. I. I mean, as a child, even, I felt like I was. I was loved and held, but I can't remember it, you know? Like, it's weird. I just felt, like, deprived that I felt like I needed so much of it, and I didn't. I didn't feel like I could ask for it. I didn't really know how, so.

[A]

Tricky thing to ask for, isn't it?

[B]

Well, it's rejection.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it's a rejection I was afraid of, you know, like. So I didn't ask.

[A]

Do your parents know about how you feel about this?

[B]

I think we tend to sort of joke about, sort of make fun of it, you know, it's like that thing of sort of northern humor. I don't know if I've probably said something because I remember giving my mom and dad hand massages, and that was for me, because I. I wanted to touch them so much. I wanted to hug them, but I couldn't. So I'd found This way as a teenager, giving them hand massages. And I remember my dad saying to me once when I gave him this hand massage, she said, how did you learn how to do that? I just knew, you know, I just. That was how I showed my love.

[A]

So you think you've got. I'm a big believer in one of the great deceptions of all of our lives is that we don't necessarily get stuff from our parents. I think sometimes it skips a generation. And actually you can be more like a grandparent than a parent. I quite like this idea. You had something with your grandmother?

[B]

I always tensed when she held me, yet she was. She would just hug me and even, like, we'd sleep with her, you know, and that felt like, weird. But she just had an openness to that, you know, she was like that. So I always felt weird because I was weird. I felt like I was weird with her. I wasn't like.

[A]

And you were close to her?

[B]

I was really close to my grandma. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm always. I think the physical side for me was always good, good when I'm with a partner, because it comes out then that would find that easy. With partners, the physical touch.

[A]

Well, that's good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You just have to always have a romantic partner that's in trouble when.

[B]

Yeah, that's a problem when you don't have one. And then it's a thing as well to kind of like, train yourself to touch yourself as well. That's a huge thing for me. And it's an ongoing process.

[A]

When you say touch yourself, what do you mean?

[B]

In, like, all sorts of ways. Sexually and, you know, physically. Like, just remembering that I can do it to me. Yeah.

[A]

It's a funny thought.

[B]

It's like, worth, you know, that I'm worth it. Like, I still feel like I'm waiting for this other person to do it to me for me.

[A]

Are we a viable substitute as our own personal huggers instead of being hugged by another?

[B]

Yeah, I think we can do a lot because I've had really profound moments with myself where I felt such tenderness towards myself from yourself. And that's been almost like the most profound thing I've ever felt. Like. But then it happens rarely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It feels like such a huge effort to do it. I have to feel all of this discomfort within me. Like, you know, like, I have to go through all that. I don't feel anything. You know, like, why am I doing this? And all these internal things that are going on.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, just in terms of practical sense, can you walk me through like so not very much. Not asking this in a sexual way. I mean, just talking about touching yourself, like in a kind of holy way. How do you actually do it?

[B]

Well, I did something recently which was really beautiful and it was very unexpected. It's where I was just looking at my hand and I held one of my hands, just looking at it and just feeling my hand. And then I was just. I don't know, it sounds really silly, but I just had this beautiful thing happen where I just went into. I don't know, I was just able to hold my hand like somebody else was holding my hand. Like a lover would hold my hand. And then I just saw how small it was. And then he just felt. Felt this, you know, these feelings of recognition and. And just feeling like, oh, this tenderness towards this little hand. And it was really beautiful. And I just like got really. I don't know what, why, but I was just able to click into this place where I wasn't. I don't know, I guess I wasn't expecting that. Yeah, to feel that from my hand, you know, just.

[A]

Just hand. Nothing else. Just focusing.

[B]

No, just holding my hand.

[A]

Each one, like focusing on each one at a time or just focusing on one. Like I'm gonna hold my right hand.

[B]

I think I just felt like, what. What does this hand. So this right hand is holding this left hand. And how does it feel for my right hand to hold my left hand? And what does it feel like for my left hand to be held by my right hand? So it's like shifting these from one to the other. It just took me to this different place somehow. It took me out of my head as well because I was stroking my hand. So suddenly it just sound really. It was really, really beautiful actually.

[A]

I mean, actually I can see you touch your own hands now. You know, I can see. You know, I can see how it would work. It's lovely. Maybe. Sorry, maybe this is too much of like a therapized therapy question to ask you. So obviously feel free to the question. But like how much of this relates to like actual touch and how much relates to like who hasn't touched you enough? Like parents? You see what I mean? Is that a valid question?

[B]

I don't really don't follow it. No.

[A]

Yeah, that might be because it's bad question. Try to rephrase it one more time just in case. So it seems that there are a few things with your parents. They're not here. You haven't said that much. But you know, there's clearly some stuff in the air which isn't. Kind of seems a bit unresolved to me from where I'm.

[B]

Do I blame them? I'm pissed off with them. Yes.

[A]

Yeah, I suppose. I suppose that.

[B]

But also, like, how much I don't, you know, like, I didn't feel like I could be myself with my parents. Yeah. There is a physical distance for a reason.

[A]

Can I say one more thing? I'm the kind of person that if I have a question in my mind, I almost can't, like, leave it come out. I'm really. And I'm really content with you saying no other.

[B]

You don't have a choice.

[A]

I don't think I don't. But I just like to get.

[B]

You can ask me.

[A]

I just like to get it out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think this could ever be resolved unless you actually do resolve it with your parents? If they are the source of the. The lack.

[B]

Do they need another source of the lag?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

No.

[A]

What's the source of the lack if it's not them, though?

[B]

Me.

[A]

All right. Yeah. Okay. But they've never done it for you.

[B]

It's not that they've never appreciated me or they didn't do it for me. Yeah. I probably do still have unresolved issues where I'm pissed off at them. Yeah. Blame them. But I know enough, and I've been through enough, you know, I've got a choice. I'm figuring these things out. And I know I've been through such a lot and, you know, been through hell and back in my life, and I'm strong and, you know, I do feel like I will get what I want.

[A]

I'm gonna get the touch as you want.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

I do. I do.

[A]

Yeah. I've enjoyed this bit about touch. This is the first time talked about touch, I think. Yeah. Especially holding your own hand. Okay, so this is. We've just about done the massage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So you've had your masseuse time.

[B]

Probably go and have some of that somatic touch, actually, like a somatic therapist. That's what I do.

[A]

What is a somatic thing?

[B]

Well, it's kind of. It's like somebody who helps you physically go through things and talk through things about when you're triggered and they will touch you and hold you because I feel like I want to. So just kind of beheld like a baby for maybe an hour and a half, two hours, three hours, a whole day. Just kind of.

[A]

So this is the top of already the swaddling, which did like a pacing.

[B]

Crazy so you need even more.

[A]

That wasn't enough.

[B]

Just a whole day of touch.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

That would be like the best thing.

[A]

So that's the ideal day. Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What would you do for lunch? I mean, you haven't had lunch.

[B]

Oh, I don't know.

[A]

You seeing any friends? You see any people?

[B]

No, I don't want to see anybody at the moment. It's like, I don't know, 15 minutes is too much as well. Just feels pressure.

[A]

What do you look for in other humans?

[B]

Somebody who I can, I guess, be real with, be upset with and irritated and be honest about how I'm feeling. That's why my best friend is a therapist.

[A]

Clever. But how are you? Your best friend's a therapist, but yet you still religiously use chat GBT as a therapist?

[B]

No, not religiously. Discovered it recently.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

I think, wow, it's brilliant.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

So this is clever.

[A]

Just give your friend a bit of a break.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Were you surprised at what it could do therapy wise?

[B]

Yeah. And it's not just that, it's other things. It's really helped me in lots of ways. I didn't realize how I could talk to this thing. AI and doesn't get annoyed with me. But yeah, I mean I walked all the way to RAI the other day because I could use this AI. It just you tell it to do something, it comes up with the information and then you just tell it to simplify it like you're a five year old, otherwise they get overwhelmed.

[A]

So is this directions to write?

[B]

Yeah. And then breaking it down. And how long does it take me to get here to here?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I needed all that. That's why I haven't done that. I've been wanting to do that for five years. I think that's really helped me to do a lot of things over the last month that I'd been putting off because it felt like too much hassle and hard work.

[A]

Just to give an example for me, like when you had your moment earlier on the beach after the, the famous 15 minutes, like what did you put in?

[B]

Then I say, look, I feel really shit giving myself a hard time. I feel really disappointed with myself. And so I just kind of told it what was going on. All these different parts of my myself that were judging me because I wanted to be like Lizzie the social butterfly. This is what it brought up. I remembered this thing when I was 21, when we went to Australia. I was really shy, I was pretty, so I got attention that way. But I didn't know how to Connect to people. And we went out and lived in the middle of nowhere. I didn't really have any friends. Friends. So on my 21st birthday, mum and dad had this party for me. But I don't know if it was for me because I think they were doing it maybe for themselves to feel better, because I had one friend and that was one of the people they invited. It was all Mum and Dad's friends, really, but I felt annoyed because I didn't want it. But then also I felt sad for myself and disappointed again. It felt. That brought that same feeling that I wish I was somebody different. I wish I was more social and Lizzie was. All these people in my life, they become like my mum and I. I felt like I disappointed her today, like she was disappointed in me because I'm not. I'm not like her. So I connected that today and I sat with myself and cried and, you know, to feel those feelings and stay with those feelings, being with these parts of me that feel weird and making them feel like they're not so weird. Yeah, that's the stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's the source, you know, that's the. That's the healing. Yeah, that's going on, you know, but it feels like I'm getting somewhere.

[A]

So the 21st birthday was. Which wasn't ideal. Have you had good ones?

[B]

Yeah, mainly when I got drunk, though. No, that's not true.

[A]

What do you do for your last birthday? Let me guess when your birthday is, just for the sake of it. November 3rd.

[B]

What's November?

[A]

You say, what's November?

[B]

Yeah. What. What star sign is that, then? Are you doing it?

[A]

Star sign?

[B]

What? How is that relevant if you're not doing star signs? Why? What?

[A]

No, it's not.

[B]

What does that mean?

[A]

You're not talking.

[B]

I'm a certain person.

[A]

You're not talking to AI here. This is just pure. This is pure nonsense, mate. This is. This is.

[B]

What made that up.

[A]

This is. I just wanted to guess. There's. No.

[B]

No, it's not right.

[A]

No, it's fine.

[B]

Can I try and guess yours?

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

September 18th.

[A]

You're not that far away.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. Why is it August 26th? I mean, like, you know, like, you're like the right. You're the right kind of ballpark, you know, so. Well done. How many friends do you have now? I mean, how many? Like, so if no one attended your 21st, apart from family friends, like, who comes to your birthday now?

[B]

My best friend Lizzy. My friend Fee from London. Abby, Estella, Nikki. All women. Ah, yeah. John.

[A]

Oh, let's get John in. Taken, man. Let's get John up.

[B]

We need.

[A]

We need one. We need one at least. Come on, mate. Come on down. He's your ex partner.

[B]

No, it's Lizzie's.

[A]

Oh, Lizzie's partner. Wow. So that means Lizzie's gonna have an awkward time.

[B]

She's friends with him.

[A]

She's friends with everyone.

[B]

Yeah. No, that's another Lizzie.

[A]

Oh, okay. Sorry. Too many Lizzies. Okay, so this is a solid. Yeah, it's a solid set.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, great. Is any. Is anyone.

[B]

There's been progress. Yeah, yeah, it's okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, let's hope.

[A]

Is anyone that's missing from this set, like.

[B]

Yeah, probably more people that I can be honest with. People that I can talk to more. Be more awkward with. I'm working on it.

[A]

Just working on a few things and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is it quite tiring to have all this work on amidst your other work that you do for money?

[B]

Yeah, it's tiring.

[A]

I was going to say I mentioned earlier about like you kind of being a little bit envious of Lizzie's social abilities. If Lizzie, social posh by Lizzy was here now and I asked her, what are you envious of? You.

[B]

You.

[A]

What would she say if she.

[B]

If she was envious of me? I guess I look at her and think it's. It's like all about other people with her and I feel like she's. She's overlooked in a way. And maybe she looks at me and thinks I'm. Yeah, look at her doing her. Her thing and that she has more time, I guess, for herself and. Or looks, you know, kind of looks after herself more.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And is, you know, kind of, I guess, in a way, you know, I don't know. I feel proud of myself. I think maybe she doesn't feel that about herself.

[A]

Great. So there's quite a lot of nice things you just said about yourself there. As much as it's like, good to work on the stuff that we should work on, like to go celebrate what you actually have done and what you are as well. I think people don't do that.

[B]

No.

[A]

Don't do that enough. It's easy just to kind of focus on all the things that we're lacking.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's easy to forget how far I've come and what I've been through and where I am now. It's got, you know, very different place.

[A]

I've got to ask it because you've kind of alluded to it a couple of times. He seems to have overcome other things. Can you say anything about what they are?

[B]

Yep. I tried to kill myself. I caught my wrists. I have scars. And I took an overdose. It was about five, six years ago. I had a breakdown. And. I don't know, I thought I was okay. And then one day I sort of went to the doctors and I just said, I feel really low. And just sort of plummeted from that. So I went through a really, really dark place where I didn't want to be here anymore. It's like over a period of a month. I made three attempts, and the last one was I cut my wrists. But I didn't really want to die. I don't think I really wanted to die. I just didn't want to carry on the way that I was carrying. And it's funny because I wanted to share stuff like this on my Instagram and even like to share this with you today. It feels quite. It feels like the universe is kind.

[A]

Of.

[B]

Like giving me this opportunity to say this thing that I feel is really important because I got, you know, I bore myself out of it and it was really hard. And I'm in such different place now. I didn't know anyone when I came here. I moved here about five years years ago, and I've always wanted to live here, but I. I went and lived with my uncle and auntie, left London and my dad came over from Australia, and I was in such a. And I had all this family around me who loved me so much, and they were right there warning me so desperately to be okay. And I wasn't. I felt so far away from everyone. And I just wanted to. I just wanted it to stop. I just wanted to not be here anymore. But I didn't want to feel any more pain. So I was trying to find all these different ways of killing myself. I want to say so sorry, but I don't want to say sorry, but yeah.

[A]

There'S nothing to feel sorry for. The universe doing things. Just when you were saying all that is when the seagulls are the loudest. They've been about the whole time have been talking. They just would. Doing all that squawking just as you were saying that. Like, it's like they were kind of joining in for the moment, for years anyway. Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, there's a. There's kind of a million questions and no questions do what? I mean, did it take doing that to like, shake you into what struck me there? You said that I didn't really want to kill myself.

[B]

No, I didn't. I just didn't want to feel. I didn't want to. I didn't. I didn't feel like I could feel at that time. I was just a robot or something. I. It was horrible. Very horrible place. But also it was very visceral as well. It's very. You know, like I felt like I couldn't feel, but I felt like I was in this other world where I was feeling more than I'd ever felt before. And a lot of it was fear. It hit me big time, and I was just like this little baby again. Like, I was so sensitive. So he couldn't even get out the house. It took me little steps to build up my confidence, and I got a little job volunteering in a shop, and that was in the next village, and that was the first little step. And then I went and did some volunteer work in the town, and that was another step. And each one was kind of more hope, you know, more sort of building confidence again. And then I saw a therapist, this young girl who thought, how's she going to help me? She was this young girl, but she was amazing. She was, again, somebody that I could talk to, and it wasn't my family. So I think that's really, really important. Somebody who's like a bridge. But I saw her for about two, three years, like once a week, just talking to her, and she would just walk me through stuff. And my friend said, you know, this is. One day you will look back at this and think, this is the best thing that ever happened to you. And in a way, it was. Now I can say that because it really. I just didn't think I could take myself to a place like that and come out of it as well. So we're really strong.

[A]

Just for clarity, when you attempted to do this, so were you on your own or your parents around, or do they come after?

[B]

No, I was living in London, and I'd been in London for about 15 years, working in London, but I hadn't been in a relationship for about 10 years. Again, I felt like I was walking around looking great, or I thought I was, but inside I just didn't know how to connect to people, especially men. I used to sit in cafes looking really pretty, and I'm just longing for someone to somehow come and talk to me, but at the same time giving that vibe. Don't come near me.

[A]

Brilliant. Yeah, that's so funny. I don't know. It seems you've learned a lot of stuff related to that situation. I suppose I want to Ask you if someone was listening to this feeling in a similar situation to how you felt around that time. Looking back now, like, if you could go and talk to yourself, knowing what you know now, what would you be saying to yourself?

[B]

I mean, I just remember feeling or thinking, I'm never going to come out of this. I could not see a way out. I really couldn't. I thought I was fucked. And I wasn't away because I was just looping in my head. But I think the thing is, like, even like today, it's the same thing in a way. Like, it's okay to feel how I was feeling. Don't let anyone tell you that's why I'm angry with you, I guess. Like, don't tell me how to feel something fucking different, because then you're fucked. And fuck you. Because that's the whole problem, you know, we don't want to feel. We're somehow trying to avoid these feelings. Feelings. And you won't. You don't. You know. Like, I saw this thing on Instagram with this guy who's talking about mental health. He said exactly how I felt. Like, when you've got mental health issues, when you're feeling that low, you just want to be better. You just want to feel better. You don't want to be in that place that you're in. So I would just say get help, you know, like, find someone that you can talk to. And there is. There is so much help out there as well. There is. You're not. Yeah, you're not gonna feel better. You just have to feel the way you feel feeling and find somebody who hold your hand in it. You know, when you can't yourself and you'll. You'll come out of it, but you can't do it on your own, not when you're in that place. That was. That's the heart. One of the hardest things, as well as asking for help, I think that's a. You know, you don't want. You don't want people to see you in that place, especially people that you love and. Yeah, but you need them. And it's not a bad thing. It.

[A]

Who did you lean on in that time? Who are the key hand holders? And I'm intrigued to hear, like, in that position, as a friend, what did the people that. Sorry, what did those. That kind of did it? Well, what did they do? Well, does that make any sense? How did they do it? Well, as someone supporting you through that time.

[B]

I think kind of. I mean, I had a friend, she's my Best friend. Now, I've known her for over 10 years, but at the time, I hadn't known her that long, you know, and she stayed with me, and she was. She kind of. She did hold my hand through it, you know, it wasn't. She wasn't there all the time, and she couldn't be there like I did. I had to move back home, so Cosby, which I didn't want to do, you know, but I couldn't look after myself and my uncle and auntie. I lived with them, and they were amazing. They gave me a room, and I could look out on their garden, and they were with me. And my dad came over from Australia, and he. We had some really amazing times where he. I saw a part of him that I had never seen before. And my sister came over, so I did have a lot of support, even. I've got a big family in Cosby, and I find it hard to be with them, and they really piss me off in a lot of ways, but they're really good people, you know, and they're loud people. I get a bit overwhelmed by them, but that time, they just all rallied around me. They're like this nest I love. I find it hard to be with them, but I absolutely love them to bits. What they did for me was really amazing. I had a lot of love, you know, from friends as well, and. Yeah. And it's funny. Lots of strangers and, you know, I had a lot of people that's like the universe was sort of looking out for me, you know, even paramedics. I have a lot of time for paramedics. I had some beautiful, beautiful people.

[A]

What did the paramedics do?

[B]

Well, just the way they talked to me, and they had time, and they have to go through so much, and. But they were just. Again, they were just really with me and just had time for me and. Yeah. Wow.

[A]

Now there's some big beats accompanying us. Well, we still haven't got to the afternoon of this day. Yeah. We even gone canoeing yet or anything? What have we got left, really? Where do we go now? Anything? I haven't asked.

[B]

And I think I need to go on my merry way now.

[A]

I think you just got to go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think we've just done it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How have you found talking to a stranger on a bench?

[B]

Really good. I really. It's been really good. Yeah. I'm really glad I did it. Yeah. Thank you.

[A]

I'm really glad you did it, too. Okay, last question. You ready? Either answer this in a kind of big way or No, I mean. What I mean is it could have a big, big answer or like a now answer. Either's fine. Both fine.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What are you going to do next?

[B]

I'm just gonna go and sit on the beach again. Probably go for a swim. Actually, that's. Yeah, what we'll do. Go for a swim. And then I can cleanse myself of.

[A]

Big day for you.

[B]

Very cathartic day I've had.

[A]

Momentous. Have a lovely swim.

[B]

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Following headlights along the floor? Till I feel her crying? In Face to the sky? Nothing can hold on to me? I slept with my hands laid across my chest? And I had a losing feeling then? And I've had it twisted before? And I did my best? You do the same for yourself?

[A]

Until the feelings.

[B]

Go sa.