EPISODE 54: We'll Be Holding Each Other's Hands

Summary

Strangers on a Bench – Episode 54: "We'll Be Holding Each Other's Hands"

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: September 22, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Strangers on a Bench, Tom Rosenthal continues his experiment in spontaneous, intimate conversation by meeting a stranger on a London park bench. The conversation begins with playful small talk and opens up into deeper reflections on simplicity, mortality, love, and the value of holding hands—both literally and metaphorically. The tone is gentle, witty, and often philosophical as both host and guest muse about what matters most at life's end, the meaning of possessions, and the beauty of connections.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Days of the Week, Walking, and Practicing for Life ([00:04]-[03:52])

• Tom approaches the stranger and kicks off the conversation with humor by asking about favorite days of the week, prompting a series of playful, closed-question exchanges.
• The guest (B) reveals they're preparing for a multi-day walk and "practicing" by walking up and down Hampstead Heath to replicate hillier terrain, appreciating the accidental poetic quality of the moment:
  • "Looking around. You've got a 360°, you know, vista of trees and city and churches and that old place there, Highgate, and dogs and half naked men and long grass and Breeze and trees in their fulsomeness..." ([02:55])

2. The Philosophy of Less and Removing the "Insole" ([03:52]-[05:59])

• Discussion about optimising for comfort on walks transitions into a metaphor:
  • Removing insoles from shoes for more space is likened to life, hinting at letting go of things once thought essential:
    • "Something you think is crucial, but actually remove... I know, that's what I've been thinking. I mean, God, you know, I've probably spent about 20 or 30 quid on insoles just trying to find the right pair and at the end of the..." ([04:34])
• B recounts a recent interaction with a dishwasher engineer, using it as a springboard to muse about simplicity, self-sufficiency ("a straw to drink river water"), and letting go of the non-essential.

3. What Would You Hold Onto at the End? ([06:02]-[11:12])

• Tom asks what three items B would want at the very end of life, leading to sentimental, unexpected answers:
  • A haircut ("saving a haircut up for the end"), a harpist at the bedside, and "a black cat by the window."
• Tom clarifies he was asking about worldly possessions, not moments or companions, leading to humorous and earnest exploration about meaningful objects.
• Playful tangent occurs about the comfort of holding a ball, then a philosophical turn:
  • "It's a returning friend." (B, about the ball, [11:09])
  • Tom asks if B would rather hold a ball or a loved one's hand, prompting reflection on human connection and mortality.

4. On Love, Relationships, and the Value of Touch ([12:24]-[20:04])

• B chooses their partner's hand as the one they'd like to be holding at the end:
  • "Oh absolutely. My partner's hand... Without... Either way, if it's her moment or my moment, we’ll be holding each other's hands." ([12:27])
• Tom and B joke about "reserving" substitutes to hold hands if a partner must step away.
• B admits that intimacy, even just holding hands, provides comfort at the deepest moments, and they regularly "roleplay end of life hand holds" with their partner ([12:48]-[13:02]).
• When asked what makes their partner special, B credits her qualities and the transformative impact she's had:
  • "You're bigger than this, mate. Come on." (A, [16:22])
  • "Her lovingness, her nearness, her in bedness." (B, [16:49])
  • "Her absence is something... that's when there's a great appreciation..." ([17:42])
• B credits his partner with saving his life, or at least giving him the sense of truly being alive:
  • "Alive." / "Well, you mean fully alive, as in, like, that's not just you being hyperbolic?" ([18:52]-[19:02])

5. Before and After Love; Boundaries ([20:36]-[22:44])

• Tom prompts B to describe life before his partner. B uses an "ice lolly on a stick" metaphor—pleasurable but fleeting and meltable—while carefully withholding personal details, maintaining boundaries.
  • "It was kind of tasty certain times. Tasty, but a bit melty. Bit melty." ([20:36])
  • "I've got full respect for people, you know, maintaining boundaries... even in the pauses, even in everything you said, trying not to say it, you've kind of said it." (A, [22:13])

6. Signs, Self-Perception, and Playfulness ([23:09]-[24:31])

• A digression about ants, hats, and whether the world presents "signs" or coincidences.
  • "Everything, you know, show me something that isn't a sign." (B, [23:39])
• Tom and B analyze the meaning of the purple hat and its symbolism for personality.

7. Methods of Escaping Uncomfortable Situations ([24:31]-[25:28])

• They joke about making excuses to leave unwanted conversations, referencing previous guests' creative escapes and reaffirming the light, playful tone.

8. Sleep, Self-Work, and Childhood Joy ([26:04]-[29:39])

• Tom remarks on B's apparent ease and suggests it must come from internal work, not just partnership; B gently challenges this, hinting at subtlety in transformation.
• Discussion of B's childhood joy:
  • Delight in nature, metal detecting, discovering lost objects—emphasizing euphoria is in the anticipation and vastness, not the objects found.
    • "Greatest moment of euphoria doing it? Walking out into the field in the beginning of the morning into a sunny field. That's the euphoria... That's what I long for. Maybe it's the potential of it." ([29:00]-[29:39])

9. Playful Reflections on the Bench ([29:44]-[34:03])

• Mock impressions of metal detector sounds, spontaneous observations about pigeons (as metaphors for their "bench community").
• Tom asks for consent to hold hands at the end, and they carefully negotiate the proper "hand hold" for mortality, leading to an actual, quietly profound moment of connection on the bench.
  • "How long do you think we should hold hands for?... You've got quite a firm hand." ([31:09]-[31:29])
  • "Just relax it a bit on the outskirts." ([31:57])

10. Final Thoughts, Reflections, and a Philosophical Goodbye ([32:12]-[34:08])

• Tom compliments B as a "formidable opponent"—meaning an enjoyable conversational partner with depth and awareness.
  • "I think you've been up there with the most formidable opponents... in terms of, like an element of enjoyable wrestle." (A, [32:21])
• B expresses gratitude and notes the unintended self-revelation that can happen in these open, unscripted meetings.
• The traditional closing question: "What are you gonna do?" ([33:40])
  • B's answer is simple and telling: "I'm going to walk down that hill, chuckling to myself." ([33:45])

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Memorable Quotes

• On minimalism and letting go:

  • "Something you think is crucial, but actually remove... more space." (A & B, [04:23]-[04:34])

• On final companionship:

  • "Either way, if it's her moment or my moment, we'll be holding each other's hands." (B, [12:32])

• On the impact of love:

  • "Alive." (B, [18:52])
  • "Somebody who helped me identify what was Important in life to look after myself because I valued myself within a relationship." (B, [19:13])

• On boundaries in conversation:

  • "You know, I've given you lots of information." (B, [22:12])
  • "Even in the pauses, even in everything you said, trying not to say it, you've kind of said it." (A, [22:13])

• On joy in discovery:

  • "Walking out into the field in the beginning of the morning into a sunny field. That's the euphoria." (B, [29:00])

• On meaningful objects:

  • "A ball, a hand, a harp, a hairdresser and a cat." (A & B, [12:10])

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Notable/Poignant Moments

• The metaphor of removing a shoe insole as a stand-in for simplifying life ([04:23])
• The consideration of what, or whom, one most wants to hold at the end ([12:24]-[13:33])
• The hand-holding reenactment, with careful negotiation of position and tone ([31:09]-[32:05])
• The candid admission that love not only transformed B’s life but may have saved it ([18:52])
• The recurring playful (and profound) theme of boundaries—between past and present, openness and privacy, connection and solitude

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Closing Reflection / Song ([34:08]-[36:33])

• An original, poetic outro from Tom (or possibly guest C), riffing on themes from the conversation:
  • "We become stories told round the fire... How about you let me hold your hand, practicing for when the music ends?... Maybe one day I'll get the perfect haircut." ([34:08]-[36:33])
• This musical ending weaves together the episode’s major motifs: ephemerality, memory, ritual, and the understated power of simply sitting together, hand in hand.

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Suggested Listening Highlights

• On practicing to live simply: [02:02]-[05:59]
• Haircuts, harpists, and end-of-life wishes: [06:16]-[08:36]
• Ball vs. human hand/On connection: [10:01]-[13:33]
• The impact of a partner on survival and meaning: [18:52]-[20:36]
• Describing joy in childhood and nature: [27:03]-[29:39]
• Hand-holding demonstration: [31:09]-[32:12]
• Musical reflection/outro: [34:08]-[36:33]

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Tone: Wry, philosophical, gently vulnerable; a mix of British wit and thoughtful earnestness.
For Listeners: An intimate, off-beat meditation on attachment, simplicity, anonymity, and the rituals—both silly and significant—that make us human.

Transcript

[A]

Hello, sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a. Well, here we are. It's a good hat by the way. Good color. Anyway, first question for you. Is there a day of the week that you favour?

[B]

No, no.

[A]

Job done. We've got everything we need now.

[B]

Perhaps could elaborate. You know, it was one word answers you wanted, wasn't it? This is a quiz, right?

[A]

It's a yes and no game.

[B]

Fundamentally closed questions keep them coming and.

[A]

Then we just keep going. No.

[B]

Was there ever one or will there be a time?

[A]

Today's the moment.

[B]

Well, today did cross my mind. And tomorrow, I mean that's not a day of a week.

[A]

It isn't.

[B]

Yesterday is the day of the week.

[A]

Tomorrow is not a day of the week.

[B]

One day. Next week would be a very good day because I'm going walking for a few days.

[A]

Oh, fun.

[B]

Okay, so I'm out kind of practicing for that.

[A]

You're practicing for that.

[B]

But you find me, you find me sitting on a bench, sippy a cup of coffee and you're a good excuse to elongate this rest after two hours.

[A]

How does one practice for a walk out of interest?

[B]

By walking. I'm kind of walking up and down the hills here. I'm trying to get 10 miles out of Hampstead Heath by following the same routes back and forth to replicate the landscape I'll be walking in, which won't be really replicating it, but it's as close as you come to kind of natural hills in London without going outside London.

[A]

Are you pitching your tent as well? Are you checking the food situation? You make yourself a fire?

[B]

No, I'm slightly celebrating the Supreme Court, the High court decision to allow wild camping and Dartmoor, although legal based.

[A]

Fun.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Although I won't be doing any camping. But there was a time when the person who was trying to ban wild camping on Dartmoor even suggested that having a picnic, it wasn't legal on Dartmoor. So you're going to really cherish decision. I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna imagine camping in Dartmoor and just to be out in that space and I mean this is an amazing spot up here. Looking around. You've got a 360°, you know, vista of trees and city and churches and that old place there, Highgate, and dogs and half naked men and long grass and Breeze and trees and their fulsomeness and all those kind of slightly poetic descriptions. So, yeah, today's pretty good.

[A]

How are we feeling about this walk, Demoli?

[B]

I've been doing a lot of swapping around at insoles.

[A]

Oh, that's important.

[B]

Yeah, very important. Know, I did a walk down the Holloway Road the other day and ended up with blisters.

[A]

So famously extreme terrain, though.

[B]

Holloway Road, very flat, very hard. But I've taken the insoles out now. Yeah, and seems to be doing the trick. It's given me a bit more room.

[A]

You haven't even replaced it with another. No, I've just taken.

[B]

I took them out a quarter of an hour ago and it's working quite nicely.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

A lot more room in this shoe.

[A]

Is there a life lesson in there somewhere? Take it out, feel more space, remove the insole.

[B]

More space? Yeah, more space.

[A]

Something you think. Something you think is crucial, but actually remove spots, but remove.

[B]

I know, that's what I've been thinking. I mean, God, you know, I've probably spent about 20 or 30 quid on insoles just trying to find the right pair and at the end of the.

[A]

Day, it's a fable.

[B]

So there we are.

[A]

Is there anything crucial in your life that you know what you thought was crucial, that if you think you removed, you'd be better off for it?

[B]

God, does that make sense? Yeah.

[A]

What is the last crucial thing he did remove that wasn't an insole?

[B]

Well, it suddenly put me in mind of the dishwasher engineer who came around yesterday.

[A]

All right, okay. Tell me about that.

[B]

I showed him a special straw we'd bought, which means you can drink out of rivers and drink bath water and it's all kind of cleaned up as it passes through the pipe. Yeah, yeah, it's.

[A]

Why did you show him this?

[B]

Well, it was next to where he was working on our dishwasher and he seemed to be into gadgets and water and he was. He was fully in appreciation of it. And we got into a conversation about moving out of London and how much we don't need everything we're surrounded by and seeking a simple life, I suppose. You know, I think as I get older and more appreciative of less is more. Definitely. I wonder. I wonder how little I can end up with.

[A]

Well, you don't have your insoles now. That's one less thing.

[B]

Just shedding things as I go along.

[A]

I like it. Have nothing by the end. Is there anything you would like? You know, let's, let's. Let's Accelerate this, shall we, a bit. What are the final three items you kept on you?

[B]

For some reason, I'm thinking of my mum a number of years ago when she was very near the end of her life and what cheered her up the most was going into hospice. The first thing that happened in the hospice is that she had a haircut. So maybe like saving a haircut up for the end.

[A]

Okay. So you have to have a lot of hair, which you do currently. So that's good.

[B]

It's another identifier.

[A]

Yeah. Good fight. Or. Watch out, longish hair somewhere. A guy walking with longish hair on Dartmoor. Quick. Oh, shit, let's get him. We've got him. Also, that would imply that you've been in genuine hair discomfort for quite a while. Pretty much.

[B]

Well, I don't think it does. No, I think it's just that transformation when you least expect it.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And you're sitting there and you probably. Well, you're probably feeling pretty low at that point, to say the least. But then to suddenly to sit up and have. And be attended to in that way with such a simple thing.

[A]

Yeah, that is nice.

[B]

I was also reading, it was in the paper really, about. Harpists are used at the end of the life.

[A]

Harpists are used.

[B]

Harpists, harp players are shipped in for people at the end of their lives.

[A]

What do you mean? What's in, like the final days?

[B]

Very much the final days. Yeah. There's a kind of synchronizing of a rhythm, I think, that people find in the heart.

[A]

I suppose it's quite celestial.

[B]

Yeah. I don't think it rallies them to the extent that, you know, they'll be moving out of the hospice, but I don't know. But there's something about it which has a very kind of calming piece of effect. So maybe, you know, if two of the things could be a hairdresser and a harpist, if that counts, and you.

[A]

Could have one that does both.

[B]

I've always wanted to be on Desert island discs.

[A]

It is a bit like that, you know, without the music. Now we don't have to choose the next track. Maybe if you. You could sing your track. You could sing the track. You.

[B]

Oh, don't get me to do that just because I've got a microphone next to my mouth. No, no, I'm going to go. I'm going to go with those two things and the third thing and A black cat by the window.

[A]

A black cat by the window.

[B]

A black cat by the window, yeah.

[A]

May I say, you know, in the most Polite way I can. You've also answered this question entirely wrong.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Because what I was getting at was worldly possessions. But I do love these. I do love these answers of what you would like at the end of your life. But I was going for actual items as well. The box that the grandfather gave me a key in it.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

We never knew this door.

[B]

I mean, I was going to say our thoughts possessions, you know.

[A]

Oh, God. Here we go.

[B]

Oh, bloody hell.

[A]

Next track.

[B]

Can we just ready r track number four. You can have the har fist in the hairdresser. That kids that kid's wooden kind of floating airplane.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Pretty good.

[A]

You want to steal this kid's airplane for your last possession.

[B]

The way. The way it's gliding with the wind.

[A]

It is actually lovely.

[B]

He's about. He's about to throw it now. There it goes.

[A]

Oh, no, that didn't.

[B]

Just kind of withered, didn't it?

[A]

Could have been a bad throw.

[B]

It was just a crash.

[A]

Does this remind you of any child to be you A thrower of airplanes.

[B]

A throw of airplanes. A thrower of balls.

[A]

You're a bull guy.

[B]

That's what. That's what. You're a ball bush.

[A]

You're a ball boy.

[B]

Well, yeah, but not like a Wimbledon ball boy. If there is one object, one desirable object which I would keep with me at all times and if there was one possession out of it all, it would be a ball. Some form of ball.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. The ball is the last remaining object in your life.

[B]

Thank you for that idea. That's what I'd take.

[A]

Okay, well, can we now we've got to a special place. Can you describe the ball?

[B]

Any kind of ball?

[A]

Cricket ball.

[B]

I mean it's baseball.

[A]

Oh, ping pong ball. That'd be fun.

[B]

I think maybe move out of the idea. This has to be actually related to some kind of game. I think it'll be okay to be serious about this. I think it would. I think it would be some kind of ball that you'd need to be able to bounce. Yeah. To bounce. It's not very. Not very comfortable bed if I could bounce a ball off it, is it? I was hoping for a kind of soft bed, you know, not one which you can just kind of a balling off. Are you mad? No. But if there's a wall. If there's a wall, I can throw it off and bounce back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's a returning friend.

[A]

Yeah. So it's a bouncing ball you need.

[B]

It's. I think it would be. I think just Kind of holding my hand and just gently pop in the air and catch.

[A]

I mean the obvious question is would you not rather hold the hand of someone you loved?

[B]

Ah.

[A]

Are you choosing a ball over a human?

[B]

But I thought you were talking about possession.

[A]

No, I was.

[B]

No, I am sorry, I wouldn't, I wouldn't.

[A]

I was just being silly there. Sorry, I'm just being silly.

[B]

No, it's bright but you know I thought well maybe just their hand rather than them.

[A]

That sounds like a niche business that just the hand of someone you love.

[B]

But not them, but kind of.

[A]

Yeah, you can warm it up at the shape of say your grandfather's hand. Like a hand, a long lost hand that you love.

[B]

Do you think there's a market for it to providing kind of hands in the moment of death? I mean are we saying it has to be a live hand or what?

[A]

Well, I suppose it's got to be. Some have to warm it up a little. Some kind of animated feature.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah you.

[A]

I mean maybe it's a bit far fetched actually.

[B]

A ball, a hand, a harp, a.

[A]

Hairdresser and the cat.

[B]

And, and a black cat.

[A]

Big question here but do you know whose hand you'd like to be holding?

[B]

Oh absolutely. My partner's hand.

[A]

Oh wonderful.

[B]

Going to be holding.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Without.

[A]

That's lovely.

[B]

Either way, if it's. If it's her moment or my moment, we'll be holding each other's hands.

[A]

Well that's very nice, isn't it? And I suppose you've practiced already by holding.

[B]

We regularly role play it. I'm sure that should we do that end of life game again where we hold it.

[A]

Maybe how.

[B]

You can have your. How do you want your hand?

[A]

Maybe we can hold each other's hands at the end of this.

[B]

Yeah, like a little, little role play for the thing and we could finish on that note and I mean maybe.

[A]

Also you know, if the partner needs to go to the loo, you know, I can just dive in there and now you've got experience with me.

[B]

Substitute just be reserved at the door.

[A]

What if you needed a constant hand holding at that time? Difficult time to ship me in.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, just.

[A]

And you've already experienced it.

[B]

At least it's familiar.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. We've held hands on the bench.

[B]

Just your kind of bridging moments.

[A]

And then you remember. Although I remember that time we held hands on the bench.

[B]

That fine day. The day which I long for now as the day of the week which I crave for. I feel as this Is. There's a circularity to this already. I mean, how are we doing for time?

[A]

We're doing great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're absolutely flying. We could just carry on. There is no time. Really?

[B]

Because I thought we had 15 minutes.

[A]

I lied. You knew I was gonna lie.

[B]

No, you. Very honest.

[A]

I am a very honest person, but I have to lie at that.

[B]

The way you approach me.

[A]

Because if I say to you, can we talk for 45 minutes? You're gonna go, no, Come on, I've got stuff to do. No one says yes to 45 minutes.

[B]

I rarely talk to anyone for longer than a couple of minutes.

[A]

There we go. So already we're flying. We're doing quite well.

[B]

Uncharted territory.

[A]

Tell me what you like about your partner.

[B]

Well, when I see her, it will be her hair, because she would have just come back from the hairdressers.

[A]

Okay, that's an interesting answer. That implies you simply have to say that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That doesn't sound like you want to say it. It's like you have to.

[B]

Well, I do. I want to say it.

[A]

All right. But you don't know what the haircut's gonna be like.

[B]

Well, it doesn't matter.

[A]

Oh, I see now. Yeah. You're gonna want to say positive things.

[B]

Just generally about her hair.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She comes back with a Mohican, what happens then?

[B]

That'd be fabulous.

[A]

Oh, you're into that. Is this what you want for your final haircut, by the way?

[B]

I'll go for a Mohican.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How was about that? The haircut you always wanted, right at the end.

[A]

Yeah, perfect.

[B]

Right at the end.

[A]

No one's gonna say anything. Although, you know what? Maybe you shouldn't do it because you'd be absolutely gutted if he loves it. You were like, I've just basically ruined my whole life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I could have been a whole different person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is the old hairstyle?

[B]

Would you call it another identifier?

[A]

Yeah, all these identifiers.

[B]

You said it was going to be anonymous.

[A]

I love it. I love it. If you're found out of this identifier, that'd be absolutely incredible. What is? Your hair. Hello. You've got a hat on, so it's hard to see, but it's quite shooty pointy.

[B]

I feel as if I'm avoiding the question about. Avoiding the question about your partner. My partner? Yeah. I feel as if it's a bit of avoidance.

[A]

That's sweet of you to acknowledge your own avoidance. Normally, I'm the one that's got to do that.

[B]

I want to recircle on that. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, good. Let's loop back to partner.

[B]

In fact, this is just one aspect of her. Oh, we were watching a detective film.

[A]

Okay, Poirot.

[B]

No, but she said you'd be good at this.

[A]

So you're bigger than this. So you'll be good at this.

[B]

You're bigger than Poirot. Pence's playing Poirot.

[A]

You're bigger than this, mate. Come on. So you can do better than Poirot. Watch something else.

[B]

You know, said you'd be good at this. I said, no, we'd be good at this. We'd be a great team. I said with your eye for detail, your tenacity, your instinct. But I think, you know. So there's three recent descriptive. Fondness.

[A]

That's very.

[B]

I mean, it's three of her. Three of her great qualities. Her lovingness, her nearness. Her in bedness.

[A]

Say again?

[B]

Her in bedness.

[A]

It's about lovemaking. No, no, sorry, just in bedness as in. Yeah, like being in bed. Intimacy. The warmth of intimacy in a bed related scenario.

[B]

You know, her.

[A]

Another identifier. Flotsmith in bed. That's the first I've ever heard that word, I think. But I quite like it. Yeah, it makes sense.

[B]

So those are a few things.

[A]

Has there ever been any difficult times? Next track. Track number seven.

[B]

Funny, just as you. Just as you said that, I was about to say her absence is something. Yes, because that's when there's a great appreciation of her and she's absent.

[A]

That's a very sweet answer. Wow, you really called out the sweetness when it comes to your partner. Yeah, she's gonna love this.

[B]

You were primed for difficult times.

[A]

No, I was. I was. I'm just imagining someone listening. This sounds too good.

[B]

Difficult times.

[A]

Ask him about the difficult times.

[B]

Difficult times. Of course it's difficult times. But it's just a wide spectrum, you know, it's just a mixture that all blends into. To another. You know, all these shades within. Within half an hour.

[A]

Of course I like that. All the shades in half. Now you're totally. What are you now with her that you wouldn't have been without her?

[B]

Alive.

[A]

Jen. Yeah. Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, you mean fully alive, as in, like, that's not alive. That's not just you being hyperbolic.

[B]

Bye, Max.

[A]

That's. Max. Could you have guessed that dog was going to be called Max?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, hang on. Can you. Can you elaborate?

[B]

Just, I suppose in the broadest sense. Somebody who helped me identify what was Important in life to look after myself because I valued myself within a relationship.

[A]

Do you actually think you would genuinely be dead if you had a man?

[B]

Okay. There wasn't an exact moment, but the chances are I could well be or not. Very well.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. The importance of the change of life.

[B]

You know, a very large change of lifestyle. Yeah. Right. Having met her.

[A]

Yeah. Can I ask. Can I ask. I mean, the obvious question now is to ask what your life was like before her or what.

[B]

It was a bit of a lolly on an. On a ice lolly on a stick. It was kind of tasty certain times. Tasty, but a bit melty. Bit melty.

[A]

So what is this pre. What is his previous life? Can we. Can we. Can we give him a little. Few more details? No, nothing.

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh, come. We've come this far. Well, we've got to get one's the lolly on.

[B]

This is a bit like a busman's holiday otherwise for me. So.

[A]

No, but we can just say that it was a tumultuous, tricky time.

[B]

Can we not say that an ice lolly on a stick isn't necessarily tumultuous and tricky. It's quite enjoyable. But soon there won't be any ice lolly left.

[A]

I see. Oh, I see. So it was too much big living is what you're saying. We're getting there, aren't we?

[B]

There was a lot. There was a lot of ice lolly and there became less ice lolly on the stick.

[A]

Of interest, what kind of ice lolly?

[B]

We're talking.

[A]

Okay. Okay. Well, let's park your previous life because we're not going to get anything more than.

[B]

No, no, that's okay. I disappointed you there a little bit.

[A]

No, it's a tiny bit disappointing. But you gave me the ice, Ollie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I will remember that. Yeah.

[B]

You know, I've given you lots of information.

[A]

You have. And you know, I will say one, I've got full respect for people, you know, maintaining boundaries. I also think even in the pauses, even in everything you said, trying not to say it, you've kind of said it.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And that's the magic.

[B]

And sometimes you put in little suggestions for what you think I was going to say.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So I've just kind of let those hang in the air for your listeners to decide.

[A]

Yeah. And it's interesting for people to go, well, what was that? And not be just kind of obvious and just give the whole package, you.

[B]

Know, sitting on a bench in the sunshine can lead to disinhibition.

[A]

Yeah. You've reeled yourself in there. You're a rare case of someone not getting too carried away. You've stopped yourself. It's just. Yes. It shows some pretty heavy awareness, which is quite a good skill. Okay, well, I'm dull.

[B]

Sorry. My eyes just falling upon all those ants in that hole.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

All milling around down there.

[A]

Suddenly, when you see one, then you see them all.

[B]

Yeah. All that movement. Yeah. I'm not going to read too much into it.

[A]

What, the ants?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Or your life. Are you a believer in signs?

[B]

I was thinking about signs the other day.

[A]

What kind of signs?

[B]

Everything, you know, show me something that isn't a sign.

[A]

Your hat. Is your hat a sign? Nothing on it.

[B]

Probably is a sign.

[A]

What does it say about you, your hat, do you think?

[B]

I don't know. What does it say to you?

[A]

The colour is true.

[B]

You're the one looking at it.

[A]

This is true. The color says there's like an element of you that's fun and wants to be seen as fun more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that too much? I think I'm definitely right, though. And also I think I've been proved right despite this conversation.

[B]

You can't put this podcast out and what?

[A]

Talk about hats.

[B]

Talk about my.

[A]

If you can.

[B]

My purple hat, I mean, might be.

[A]

The crucial element of it. Might be the only bit people enjoy.

[B]

You have to get another hat. Who's that?

[A]

What do you mean, who's that? It's a man with tattoos walking.

[B]

I don't know if it's somebody I know or not. Oh, looks like somebody.

[A]

Go and find out. Maybe that's your road out of here. Is that. Is that someone I know?

[B]

I know. The different relatives just got to. How do you get out of tight spots? Yeah, how would I get out of this now? You know, I mean, how would you get. I mean, my coffee's nearly finished. I'm kind of thinking.

[A]

I mean, I suppose you go, well, you know, that's a right. Make an excuse. You know, I spoke to someone over there on a previous occasion and he said he had to go and make a curry, vegetarian curry for his wife.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

That was his way out. I think he did actually have to do that. He was. Yeah, but I'm just giving you ideas. I mean, you could.

[B]

Well, yeah. I mean, I do have to continue my walk.

[A]

You do, don't you?

[B]

My coffee's kind of running out.

[A]

Can you give me three or four more questions?

[B]

Let's give it a go.

[A]

Let's give it a go. I feel like there's. I feel like, we've come this far and if I can, I don't want to.

[B]

What else can you excavate?

[A]

Exactly? What do you think you could reveal about yourself that is something you're comfortable to reveal about yourself? Like, he's really. He's gone now. The cogs are going. He's off. He's now supported to another relative. What do you think you can reveal about yourself that you're comfortable really about yourself that would give people a fuller picture of who you are. I mean, we know who you are, but I mean, like, this is a lot. There's a lot.

[B]

What would you like to know? What would you like to know? What is it about me you'd like to know?

[A]

Yeah, well, I mean, obviously hinted at stuff, you know, this is my general read on. You look, you look very comfortable now with yourself. You know, you look like you sleep quite well.

[B]

That's one thing I do do.

[A]

There we go. See? Absolutely nailed it.

[B]

You're really good at sleeping.

[A]

Yeah, right. So there we go. You really do look at ease. But then you've said all this stuff about your ice lolly, which then leads me to think, well, there's been this whole other stuff before you got there. Then you said the partner seems completely pivotal to you, going from this kind of ice lolly life to this kind of life of complete ease. I don't believe one person could achieve that just on their own. Like, you must have done some of that yourself. So clearly you've worked on that yourself. Maybe.

[B]

I mean, yeah, I mean, you're interpreting that slightly differently than the way maybe it was meant, but that's fine.

[A]

I suppose the logical place to go really is a childhood scenario. Okay, can you think of what a typical childhood day looks like for you? If you think of a joyous childhood day, can you you.

[B]

A joyous childhood day. So I think being out in natural environments, playfully exploring the treasures that lay around.

[A]

Did you bury any treasure?

[B]

Inventively.

[A]

Well, you have buried.

[B]

I enjoy metal detecting.

[A]

Oh, okay. There we go. Here we go. Here we go.

[B]

Now you said that. But. But it's not so much the treasure, it's the walking around in the field in maybe sunny weather, but just having that space and openness and kind of isolation and then, you know, the occasional thrill of finding something underground which hasn't been touched for 10, 1500, 200,000 years. And you pick that up and you look at it and you look around you and you're practically in the middle of nowhere, you know, so just that feeling, that kind of connects with childhood as well. Those moments of discovery and almost for that period of time, not having a care in the world. And that's. I think that would be, you know, one of the simple things which I'd like to end up with if I could.

[A]

I've got to ask you a couple of questions about being, doing, metasecting. Now I've got to. Got to. Greatest moment of euphoria. Doing it.

[B]

Walking out into the field in the beginning of the morning into a sunny field. That's the euphoria. Into the open space.

[A]

So it's not the finding of the thing.

[B]

No, it's walking out into the open field with all that space, all that light, you're on your own. Maybe there's a field of corn next to you or this great big expanse of space, gentle space, great big open skies, moving around in that space. That's the euphoria, I think. Yeah. When I think about it, that's what I long for. Maybe it's the potential of it.

[A]

Can you mimic the sound of the metal detector when you find something?

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh, go on. You could so do. Can I do an impression, see if it's close? Yeah.

[B]

Was that.

[A]

Or is it more about.

[B]

You've got some experience then?

[A]

I think there are.

[B]

I think there are some that sound like that. I think some of the older models sound okay.

[A]

What the new ones do they go. You have located a coin?

[B]

Possibly. I think it sounds like. Sometimes it sounds like tuning into an old long wave radio or whatever.

[A]

Do you get Radio four coming on.

[B]

Three pigeons in front of us now.

[A]

What does that mean? We're looking for another?

[B]

I don't think everything means something. I think you know what. You know, I could try and make something. No one.

[A]

It represents for me. Three pigeons.

[B]

What?

[A]

It's the end of your life, isn't it? No, no, as in it's you, your partner and me as a substitute handholder.

[B]

Oh, there's a fourth one there just in the distance.

[A]

Yeah, they're not. It's not close. It's the. The fourth one is the hovering doctor.

[B]

That pigeon's got shit on his back.

[A]

I think we should do. I mean, are you comfortable? I should probably ask your consent. Comfortable doing a handhold. The end.

[B]

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Fantastic. How long do you think we should hold hands for?

[B]

And which position is your hand going to be on top of mine? Should we just do a run through? Now, I mentioned your left hand or is he.

[A]

Left hand. Oh, that's quite nice, isn't it? You've Got quite a firm hand.

[B]

I mean, that's like it. I imagine a more relaxed hand, actually. Kind of. Just kind of.

[A]

Oh, you feel lower.

[B]

A bit more like that.

[A]

That's probably a bit more deathbeddy.

[B]

Yeah. So if I. Yeah, that's more. If I close my eyes, could that be my reserve standing? Standing handing. Oh, it's not very relaxed. I think it's.

[A]

I might.

[B]

I just want to get a bit more of your kind of palm. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I need to be more firmly in.

[B]

Just, just.

[A]

Yeah, just relax it a bit on the outskirts.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, just kind of relax it a little bit. Just kind of give it a bit of weight.

[A]

Well, that's very nice to hold your hand. Yeah, it's good to work through the permutations of this. Well, you want the last question?

[B]

Oh, God, yeah.

[A]

The same one that, like, I always finish with the same one for every person.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

I think. Can I say one thing before we finish? We say this about you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think you've been up there with the most formidable opponents. Should I say that I've had on these benches.

[B]

Opponents?

[A]

Oh, sorry, not opponent. Opponent. Wrong word. I mean, in terms of, like an element of enjoyable wrestle. Does that make any sense? It's all been very, very fun.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

I think there've been really interesting windows there, which is so. Enough for people to get hold of something.

[B]

I've enjoyed it as well. Thanks, Sam. And, you know, I appreciate what you said there. It was. It's been really unexpected and quite a privilege, really.

[A]

Likewise.

[B]

And I appreciate the effort. Anonymity.

[A]

So people know. You live in London.

[B]

People will know what you've got. People know who I am.

[A]

A black currant hat.

[B]

People will know who I am.

[A]

Oh, what are you saying, you're a celebrity now?

[B]

No, no.

[A]

You're ending this by saying, all my.

[B]

Friends, My friends will know who I am.

[A]

Oh, this is true. If they listen to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think you said, well, I'll.

[B]

Be sending it to them.

[A]

No, you haven't said. You haven't said anything against your friends, which is good. I mean, your partner looks very good. I mean, I can't imagine anyone looking better than a partner. I mean, just absolutely tremendous.

[B]

Get on with the last question.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are you gonna do?

[B]

I'm going to walk down that hill, chuckling to myself.

[A]

Well, that's a good answer, isn't it? We're done.

[B]

Brilliant.

[A]

There's the hands. We're doing the hands. All four.

[B]

Nice one.

[C]

In the. And you, me and the canned beans expire. We become stories told round the fire. We become bark on the family tree. We start to mean less than we used to mean. The songs that we loved are heard and outdated. Our house and our school school rebuilt and repainted. The bench that we sit on is now an apartment and we return back to where we started Sending the harvest. It's time for harvest. How about you let me hold your hand Practicing for when the music ends? I don't want to curse it, but I have a feeling we we could get good at this while we're still breathing. Maybe one day I'll get the perfect haircut. Maybe there's time to do something important. Maybe the time spent thinking about it could have been spent in the moment. Sending the carpet. It's time for harvest. Send in the har. It's time for.

[A]

You.

[C]

Send in the harpist. It's time for heart.