EPISODE 56: Rebellion and The River

Summary

Strangers on a Bench

Episode 56: Rebellion and The River

Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: October 6, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this poignant and wide-ranging episode, Tom Rosenthal sits with a stranger on a bench in a London park and peels back the layers of a life defined by rebellion, outsider status, and the search for healing and meaning. The guest—a boat-dweller and former entrepreneur—shares stories of leaving behind a lucrative but hollow existence for a more grounded, if sometimes precarious, life by the river. Through honest conversation, the episode weaves together threads of trauma, privilege, community, kindness, and the pursuit of authenticity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Comfort of Mondays and Living on the River

• [00:52] The guest’s favorite day is Monday, because it’s quieter and free from crowds, allowing him to just “enjoy the being.”

  • "Monday is great. Day off in the sense everyone's busy and I can just enjoy the being...I don't like to be around loads of people." (Guest, 00:59)

• [01:36] He describes waking up at dawn to feed his cats on the boat, and the anchoring routines of coffee and peaceful solitude.

  • "I live on a boat, so during the summer it becomes bright quite early and then the cats wake me up for food anyway." (Guest, 01:36)

2. From Entrepreneur to Outsider: The Cost of Capitalism

• The guest shares his past founding a company reliant on Chinese tourism; he turned down a £200,000 offer weeks before COVID-19 and Brexit cratered the business.

  • "They offered me £200,000 for my equity...and then February 2020 Covid happened...my equity wasn't worth much after that." (Guest, 04:02)

• He reflects on privilege, noting how losing financial security taught empathy for those struggling.

  • "It made me see how life is for most people. Before, I was very much in a bubble...surrounded by other really, really privileged people." (Guest, 05:15)

• His relationship with work shifted, realizing “money is not the answer to everything,” and choosing a life with less convenience but more presence.

3. Community, Conflict, and Rebellion

• [06:10] Living on a boat is both liberating and fraught; the guest details tensions with a once-close neighbor who violently opposes a community gardening project.

  • "[My neighbor] broke into my boat a month ago and assaulted me as well...He was screaming at me for about 15 minutes." (Guest, 07:02)

• Despite these threats, he persists in planting flowers and building communal spaces—a “beautiful act of rebellion.”

  • "I'm trying to create a community garden. That's my work." (Guest, 09:42)
  • "Even just the act of doing a community garden is a beautiful act of rebellion against all the bullshit." (Tom, 22:24)

4. The Outsider Experience and Finding Belonging

• Raised as a Russian minority in a Muslim Central Asian country, then as a poor student among children of diplomats, the guest has always felt like an outsider.

  • "Whichever kind of social circle I get into, I'm always different to the norm." (Guest, 12:31)

• Past friendships were often forged through shared trauma, highlighting the long-lasting impact of turbulent childhoods on adult coping mechanisms.

5. Trauma, Healing, and Escaping

• [14:27] The guest openly recounts generational abuse, severe emotional distress, and estrangement from family.

  • "My dad used to drink a lot and abuse my mom and...my brother would abuse me...Occasionally sexual abuse." (Guest, 14:27)

• Realization of trauma's hold came recently via therapy and books, leading to a focus on gardening as self-healing.

  • "Gardening is my therapy essentially." (Guest, 16:54)

• He also questions the comfort derived from privilege, especially when others are exploited for one's convenience.

  • "When I used to get takeaways...it would make it hard to sleep at night...this person is essentially a slave. I didn't want to live with that." (Guest, 17:13)

6. Society, Injustice, and the Urge to Leave

• The guest voices disillusionment with injustice in the UK and the West; he's drawn to the idea of moving to rural Thailand to escape capitalist culture and live simply.

  • "This is not the place for me...I'm breaking rules and finding roots." (Guest, 20:32 & 50:04)

• Still, he recognizes “healing is lifelong,” and that geographical change may not alone resolve internal wounds.

  • "I really don't think that changing where I live is going to heal me in any way...the stuff that I need to work through is inside me." (Guest, 25:31)

7. Rule Breaking as a Way of Life

• The guest does not see himself as a rule-breaker in the criminal sense but refuses to accept the “status quo.” He disregards boat licensing rules to focus on creating community spaces.

  • "I've broken loads of rules...I haven't got a license, I haven't got a safety certificate...But I know that I'm trying to do a good thing." (Guest, 27:10, 28:26)

• Offers advice to would-be rebels: diversify your social circles, avoid seeking validation from just one group, and trust yourself.

  • "The number one thing is to try to get away from people...If you're always in one group, it's going to be really, really hard to break rules." (Guest, 31:16)

8. Kindness, Intuition, and Magical Moments

• A recurring theme is the kindness of strangers in his community—neighbors regularly give him bread and homemade food, acts that stand in stark contrast to everyday politeness.

  • "One of my neighbors...he brings out bread to me. Another...gives me food...Another elderly Irish guy made jam from the plums I grew." (Guest, 35:37, 36:23, 37:43)

• Magical moments—like enabling a circus boat performance for local kids—offer respite and meaning amid the river’s hardships.

  • "The circus boat performed. There was a big audience, loads of kids. Everyone was happy. Magical moment." (Guest, 41:08)

9. Grappling with Loss, Escapism, and Awareness

• The loss of his closest friend to addiction, compounded by unaddressed childhood trauma, intensified his awareness of how people escape pain.

  • "If you don't look into what's happened to you in your childhood, it can really fuck you up...I'm now much more aware when people seem fine...I don't buy it." (Guest, 44:27)

• Technology and substance use are highlighted as escape mechanisms as destructive as alcoholism.

10. Vivid Memory and Closing Reflections

• The guest closes with a detailed sensory memory of youthful peace on a Scottish mountain.
  • "I'm on a mountain in Scotland 15 years ago. Very clear, calm lake in front of me...It's very, very peaceful and not stressful. And I feel safe." (Guest, 47:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On privilege and self-awareness:
  "I do not want to use my privilege to get a high paying job...because I think it comes at a cost." (Guest, 06:10)

• On healing:
  "I don't want to be held captive to my trauma all my life. So I do gardening as a...it's my therapy essentially." (Guest, 16:54)

• On injustice and escape:
  "Colonialism isn't finished...It's just changed. Before, we were exploiting foreign lands. Now we're exploiting foreign people who come to this land." (Guest, 19:41)

• On rebellion:
  "Even just the act of doing a community garden is a beautiful act of rebellion against all the bullshit." (Tom, 22:24)

• On the outsider's journey:
  "I'm always the outsider wherever I am...my life very difficult because I'm always the outsider wherever I am." (Guest, 12:06, 12:16)

• On neighborly kindness:
  "One of my neighbors, he's like 80 and gives me bread pretty much all the time." (Guest, 35:37)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:36] Living on a boat: routines and the feeling of freedom.
• [04:02] The failed business, pre-pandemic optimism, and crisis.
• [06:10] Awakening to privilege and changing consumption patterns.
• [07:02] Community conflict and the threat from a neighbor.
• [14:27] Disclosing childhood abuse and generational trauma.
• [16:54] Healing through gardening and self-reflection.
• [19:41] Perpetuation of injustice and longing to leave the UK.
• [22:24] Community gardening as rebellion.
• [27:10] Boat life rule-breaking and the meaning of defiance.
• [31:16] Advice for would-be rule-breakers.
• [35:37] Kindness of neighbors and the difference between true and polite gestures.
• [41:08] Magical circus boat moment.
• [44:27] The death of a friend and the dangers of unhealed trauma.
• [47:37] Memory visualization of peace in Scotland.

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is intimate, earnest, and quietly radical; the guest is reflective, unafraid to be vulnerable, and committed to living in alignment with his values—even at significant personal cost. Tom Rosenthal is compassionate and gently probing, providing space for genuine introspection.

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Final Reflections

This episode is a deeply personal meditation on rebellion, belonging, and healing, with the river serving as both escape and mirror. Through the guest’s openness, listeners are invited to reconsider comfort, community, and courage—reminding us of the value in small revolutionary acts and the complicated, beautiful work of being fully alive.

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Transcript

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Do you have a favorite day of the week?

[A]

I do, actually. I'd probably say it's like Monday.

[B]

Good. Why?

[A]

I'd say it's my day off. Day off in the sense everyone's busy doing stuff and I can just enjoy the being. Also busy during the weekend. There's tons of people around. Can't go anywhere. I don't like to be around loads of people. So Monday is great.

[B]

Let's go for then. Any given Monday in as much detail as you possibly can with someone you've literally just met.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What for you is a really good day on Earth. Waking up. Hit me.

[A]

Feed the cats.

[B]

What time are you waking up?

[A]

6Ish.

[B]

Early.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I live on a boat, so during the summer it becomes bright quite early and then the cats wake me up for food anyway.

[C]

So.

[B]

Yeah, there goes light cats action.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

What do I do next? Coffee. Religiously.

[B]

That is your God?

[A]

I wouldn't quite say that, but it's my routine.

[B]

Yeah. Like routine is a God.

[A]

Yeah, kind of. I've been on and off with it, on and off with coffee.

[B]

What replaced it?

[A]

Nothing.

[B]

Oh, yeah, Just emptiness.

[A]

I used to do a lot of office work and I became reliant on coffee and I'd have like two or three a day.

[B]

Get through the day or just.

[A]

Yeah, to get through the day. I was working a bit too much. So, yeah, it was my God then.

[B]

Were you addicted or that too?

[A]

I'd say I was addicted to work. Coffee allowed me to feed my addiction.

[B]

Interesting. Okay. Are you no longer addicted to work?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, that's a really good question. I'm tempted to say, no, I'm not addicted to work, but in reality I think I am a little bit. It's very different work now, but it's a lot easier for me to let go and just not work. So, yeah, I wouldn't quite say I'm addicted to work now, but it's easy for me to fall into the pattern of working more than perhaps I should.

[B]

So at some point where everything snow that.

[A]

I mean, something like that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What snap?

[A]

I wouldn't say it was a snap within me. It was more. I had my own company and okay, we were doing quite well, but I kind of fell out with my co founder so yeah, I had to.

[B]

Was it a dramatic falling out?

[A]

I'd say it was a. It was building up slowly. The investors kind of nudged it along because they could see that we weren't really gelling.

[B]

Were you broken up with.

[A]

It became clear that I had to take a step back.

[B]

Okay, so you had to jump off before you were pushed.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm like, yeah, the time has come. I started the company and I kind of, I found everyone. Like, I recruited my co founders.

[B]

So is your idea this company?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

All right. And then. So it's now it just goes on, it just. They bought you out. They didn't buy you out.

[C]

So.

[A]

In January, I think it was this January. Oh no, 2020, they offered me £200,000 for my equity. And I'm like, the company is growing. I'm like, that's a bad deal. The thing is we relied on Chinese tourists in the UK shopping like Harrods and places like that. And then February 2020 Covid happened and my equity wasn't worth much after that. The Chinese tourists stopped and the shops closed and like. And then at the end of the year, Brexit happened which basically killed our market in the UK.

[B]

So yeah, it's funny you missed out on your 200 grand.

[A]

Yeah, I did, but I don't know if I'm just trying to kind of justify it or rationalize it perhaps, but. But my life took a very different turn after that and if I got the 200 grand, I wouldn't have gone there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now that I've gone there, I'm really, really pleased that my life took that turn.

[B]

So what's the dramatic turn then? Let's have it.

[A]

I just live a lot closer to nature. I'm less of a. An avid capitalist, I suppose. And I really thought that money is the answer to everything. And like you, you've got to earn loads of money. You see, I didn't grow up with money. I grew up quite poor and I focused on my career. I did well, I suppose, and I thought, aha, this is the dream. But yeah, like after leaving the company, I was quite broke for quite a period of time. And it made me see how life is for most people. And before, like, I was very much in a bubble. I was surrounded by other really, really privileged people, almost all of them.

[B]

And how has this awareness changed the way the way you live your life?

[A]

My life is a lot harder. I do not want to use my privilege to get a high paying job and make loads of money and like Climb the ladder, because I think it comes at a cost. Like, I was getting Ubers everywhere before, but, like, who's working for Uber and what are their lives? Like, so. So I've just become a lot more conscious of my choices. I've become less of a consumer. It's made my life a lot less convenient. I have a lot less safety. Like, literally today, one of my neighbors threatened me, saying that if I plant any more flowers outside my boat, he's going to take my boat away.

[B]

If you plant any more flowers outside of your boat.

[A]

So just.

[B]

What on the.

[A]

He's going to move my boat. And he broke into my boat a month ago and assaulted me as well. So, like.

[B]

Yeah, can you tell me about that? What do you mean he broke it? He literally is broken. And what do you.

[A]

Like, there was a. There was a sign, like, outside my boat, basically saying, come in and enjoy the river. Because, yeah, there is a railing and it is openable. But people just see the railing and they're like, is that private? Because they see a bunch of boats there, so they're like, oh, we don't want to go in. So I just. I open the gates and I put a sign saying, come in and enjoy the river. And I put out, like, some duck food so people can feed the ducks. I'm just trying to encourage people to. Well, to, you know, enjoy the river.

[B]

Oh, that's very sweet.

[C]

View.

[A]

He broke open the door and threw the sign in, and then he came back a couple of hours later and.

[B]

Yeah, but you say assaulted. You actually had a fight or just kind of got in your spec.

[A]

I mean, he grabbed my balls. Okay. It was a bit. Yeah, it was. It was a brief ride thing. But he was just like.

[B]

I don't know. The obvious question to ask after that.

[A]

Is, yeah, you didn't see that coming. He was screaming at me for about 15 minutes. He's like, take all the flowers out by midnight. Otherwise I'm gonna come and take you out.

[B]

Why has he got to get the flowers, this guy?

[A]

So before that part of the park, the mooring, it was quite neglected. Lots of rubbish, lots of mess. It looked like a dirty squat, let's say. And I'm trying to make it nice, but obviously now people kind of come over to the flowers, and they're like, oh, this is quite nice. And they have a look. He doesn't want that. He wants it to be private, like his own space. Ironically, I invited him to the mooring six months ago because we used to be friends.

[B]

You used to Be friends as well.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's weird how good of friends they used to be.

[A]

Well, I'd say pretty close because we were moored in North London before and he didn't really get on with anyone else there. So, yeah, like we'd hang out quite a lot and he did a lot of work on my boat. Yeah, we used to talk quite a lot.

[B]

But that makes it even worse. You basically look. Basically looked after him.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he really struggled for money sometimes and I'd lend him money and like there for him during his difficult times. But after moving to the mooring where we are now, he's made new friends and then he got a girlfriend and like he made some money and he thought he's on top of the world so he can do what he wants. So, yeah, I've been pondering about that today, how to proceed, because I'm trying to create a community garden. That's my work.

[B]

This must all be quite consuming for you, is it?

[C]

Quite a lot?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it is quite a lot. So, yeah, I'm considering whether to give up because I'm trying to get help from local people and obviously there's the council, like there's people who have power. I'm trying to get their help but they're busy. If you're.

[B]

Should we call this person a nemesis?

[A]

You can.

[B]

You're flower planting nemesis.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

He stole my fig tree. I planted a fig tree next to the plum trees. There's an orchard in the park. He dug it out and then he came the next day and that's when that thing happened.

[B]

He dug it out.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

What is this person?

[A]

He's just. He's not well, like, I'll be honest, he's not evil. I don't think anyone's evil. Even like people who do not nice things. I think it's a mental health thing. They want power or something's not going well in their life and they have trauma and heal trauma and they want to assert their dominance. But also don't live on the river, don't get a boat. It's a really terrible idea because basically everyone that I've met on a boat is really struggling mentally.

[B]

Why do you think that is?

[C]

Well.

[A]

For a lot of people, it's the only way they can afford to live in London. And so people at the bottom of the financial hierarchy, people who've had crises in life, there's a lot of divorced men and they've probably lost their home, no longer with their children and they start drinking. Like there's a huge segment of boaters who are just like middle aged men with kind of broken lives who've taken up drink and it doesn't do much good and like that's the environment you're in, so it doesn't get better from there. The people who have like sorted lives, they're on nice moorings which cost a lot of money. So there's a lot of division. Even though sometimes you might be next to each other or sometimes you're on one side and they're on the other side and it's just like two different worlds.

[B]

Where do you fit into all this?

[A]

That's the thing with me. I'm. I'm a bit of an odd one out. I don't fit into any box as such.

[B]

You're not a cathary guy.

[A]

It's made my life very difficult because I'm always the outsider wherever I am.

[B]

What was the first moment in your life where you looked around and you go, yeah, I am, I'm outside.

[A]

When I was quite young, like I was born in a country in Central Asia, a Muslim country, I'm Russian, so like people around me didn't look like me. And then eventually I went into an international school for free because my mom worked there. But everyone else was like son of a diplomat or daughter of a diplomat or of a mafia family. People who are like wealthy. And again, I was the outsider because I was a lot poorer than all of them. Whichever kind of social circle I get into, I'm always different to the norm.

[B]

Has there ever been a moment or kind of phase in your life where you, you haven't felt like an outsider or you felt like you're part of something?

[A]

Nothing comes to mind at the moment. I mean like I had a couple of close friends in Unique. When I was with them, I didn't feel like an outsider.

[C]

But.

[A]

Some time passed and one of them died a year ago. And I kind of looked back and I figured out what bonded us back then. We all had quite traumatic childhoods and that's why we fit in with each other. But yeah, childhood trauma tends to lead to difficulties in life. A lot of it is addiction related, whether it be substances or work. Addiction as a coping mechanism.

[B]

If it's not too difficult to ask, can I ask you a bit about what your childhood trauma entailed?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, basically my dad used to drink a lot and abuse my mom and like beat my brother and then in turn my brother would abuse me. Mostly emotional abuse, like bullying me kind of on a daily basis and Occasionally sexual abuse.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I came here with my mom. So I was away from my brother and away from my dad. But my mom had a new partner and like, I think he was abusive to her, but a bit less intentionally. He had major mental health issues and it created a very unstable environment. And then we'd live in the same flat, but he wouldn't want to be in the same room with me. So.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You moved a long way for a kind of different form of abuse there.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's weird, isn't it, how these things work in life.

[B]

To what extent, I mean, if ever have you kind of felt free of all that, you know, at least physically.

[A]

I mean, like after coming to London for uni, I felt like finally I'm away from my family, which has always been a source of pain. But I was oblivious to the effects that my childhood. Lasting effects that my childhood had.

[B]

When did you become aware?

[A]

Quite recently.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, like a year ago, year and a bit ago. What was it?

[B]

I mean, how did that. How did that awareness.

[A]

After breaking up with my ex girlfriend, I started doing therapy eventually. Therapy? I wouldn't say therapy was like the light bulb moment for me. I just kind of read some psychology books that made me realize what my behavior patterns are and what the connection is to my childhood. And that is I'm not like unique that it's a common pattern. I would say that was a light bulb moment, just realizing that I was still trapped by my childhood. My behavior is still kind of determined by my unhealed trauma.

[B]

What have you done with this newfound kind of knowledge? How have you acted upon it?

[A]

Well, I'm trying to heal. I don't want to be held captive to my trauma all my life. So I do gardening as a. Like it's my therapy essentially makes it.

[B]

All the more brutal if someone's. Someone's getting in the way of that.

[A]

Oh, it's true.

[B]

Yeah, Life.

[A]

And I'm trying not to. What I mentioned earlier about like, I'm not going out to get a well paid job and then like use my privilege because I know that somebody's on the other end. Somebody's having to endure a difficult life in order for me to have a good life. So for me it makes me feel better that I'm not playing that game and like choosing to struggle because when I used to like get takeaways, for example, when I was living with my ex in a nice flat, the Deliveroo guy would come and I was kind of curious about his life. It would make it Hard to sleep at night. Not exactly literally, but I had to numb out the pain. So, like, I used to smoke a lot of weed back then because that kind of stayed in me that I'm, like, aware that this person is essentially a slave. I didn't want to live with that. So, like, I don't want that comfort, knowing that it comes at that cost. So we have to go back to your original question. I think I'm just trying to focus more on healing and trying to escape less, trying to reflect more, not trying to run away, but I'm still running away. I'm just trying to be more aware of it.

[B]

I really like that thought, that an element of healing is about better understanding the people around you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it's a very obvious thing that healing would be like, individual pursuit, which obviously makes sense, and a lot of it is.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that whole world of just as you say. It's interesting, you know, these. These individuals, they literally. We touch them. You know, they give us things. It's not like we're just, like, waving at people 100 miles away.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

They come into our houses.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, this is like. This is. It's there all around us.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's kind of an interesting blindness that number of people have to it.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

That you seem to have been, you know, something's. The veil has been lifted for you.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

It's not.

[A]

Yeah, you're absolutely right when you say, like, they're very much in our lives, people who serve others, essentially doing, like, labor. I did food delivery for a while. I haven't done it to the extent that they do, which is six days a week or six and a half days a week. Like, 12 hours a day for many years. I don't know what that feels like.

[C]

But. Yeah.

[A]

The other thing to say would be that being more aware of this. It's made me decide to leave London and leave the UK because I feel this is not. At least, this is not the place for me because I see so much injustice around me. Essentially. Colonialism isn't finished. Give it 100 years, and people will be saying this about the current time that we live in. But it's often talked about as if, like, oh, yeah, slavery is in the past and colonialism is in the past. We don't do that anymore, but I think we do. It's just changed. Like, before, we were exploiting foreign lands. Now we're exploiting foreign people who come to this land. I feel there's a lot of culture war and, like, I want to get away from that. I think our society is not in a happy place.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to argue, Theo. What I would say is that don't you have to go a long way before injustice is not a thing? It's just like different levels, right?

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

I mean, I think, I'm not trying to make you think again about your decisions, but like kind of.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you're someone who will see it wherever you go.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I very much agree. My reasoning really stems from the UK and I guess the US or the west, we're the source of the injustice. Because like, where does capitalism come from? Well, like it was born here, so. Well, that'd be good. Just over.

[B]

With the ducks.

[A]

So my plan is to move to a farm in Thailand. But you're absolutely right in saying that there's plenty of injustice there as well. I want to be away from like civilization, from like cities. I want to live rurally and to not have to go to shops or use a bank. I just want to grow my own food and live on my own bit of land together with other people. But yes, it's not a paradise by any means. If I have a choice, I'm gonna choose a slightly easier, completely fair.

[B]

It's funny, isn't it? The kind of great irony is that London, around here, anywhere, need people like you.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

You need people who are aware of things, but also someone who's clearly done their own thing and like started things and kind of has this outsider mentality. You know, you combine those two forces together. I'm quite like excited about what you could do with all that you say to demonstrate this, to use it to work against the evils of what you're talking about. I don't know, like, it's even just the act of doing a community garden is a beautiful act of rebellion against all the bullshit. So it's kind of we can't lose this person to a farm in Thailand. But of course you must live the life that you want.

[A]

Yeah, I do appreciate this point as well. And like, I have thought about this and I still think about it sometimes. I'm like, should I stay and continue rebelling? I feel really outnumbered.

[B]

Yeah. There must be people who would make you feel less outnumbered, surely.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Around somewhere.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

There are plenty of community minded people and people who would be on your. On your side.

[C]

No.

[A]

Yeah, it's more like I feel the UK is too expensive here, for example. Sure. And like you're just, you're kind of Being screwed wherever you go. I'd be really surprised if there wasn't some sort of social turmoil. I'm sorry to be a bit dark, but you know the London riots from 2011, I'm expecting more of that. I'm trying to take a historical lens on it and think about this. Culture is shaped by Christianity. Christianity is very much about, like, rules. You cannot do this, you cannot do that, you cannot do that. And Christianity was also very much in power when colonialism was happening. And I'm like, that doesn't quite make sense to me. Whereas Thailand, its history is Buddhism, and Buddhism is a lot more about accepting the way world is, as opposed to trying to force it to be a certain way. I've become a bit more spiritual, such that I think I want to be in a country which has Buddhist roots. Even though, like, I'm sure lots of young people in Thailand, they're like, fuck Buddhism, I want money.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, yeah, no, it makes sense.

[B]

Do you think there's a degree in which, you know, this is all light conjecture, what I'm about to say? It's just an idea, but you say you're in the process of healing. You started that journey of which it has an indeterminate amount. Amount of time it would take.

[A]

Lifelong journey.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And some people think that I've got to move somewhere. I've got to change this as a kind of final step of this healing process. Like a physical thing or a big change will help with that. And it's almost, I think, worth. At least if I was in your position, I think, well, I would want to do more of that process. So I know that moving isn't just about the past, isn't actually a reaction to your childhood, but actually not actually working out. It's like an illusion of working out.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. I really don't think that changing where I live is going to heal me in any way. The stuff that I need to work through is inside me. One thing I've learned from Buddhism is that you have to learn to accept the chaos around you. Like, life will always have lots of chaos wherever you are. So I do actually regularly think about this. I'm like, should I actually stay here and learn to embrace the chaos and to, like, you know, persevere?

[C]

Yeah, maybe.

[A]

Like, it's an ongoing question. At the same time, I know that I've been drawn to East Asia and, like, Buddhism, for example, since I was 18, like, since before I came to London. It's like, for last 16 years. So I Just feel it's an intuitive thing.

[B]

Yeah, it's good, too. It's always good to try, isn't it?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, that's totally fine. You know, as a rebellious sort, as you know, taker is a bit of a rule breaker. Can you think of, like, your greatest rule break?

[A]

You want me to say that on a. On a public podcast?

[B]

Yeah. It's not anonymous. Isn't it?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know, who's gonna find you?

[A]

You're just a voice.

[B]

Well, well, well, as you say, I broke into this bank on February 2, 1993. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

In the age of AI to be fair, I don't have much content online that my voice could be matched to.

[B]

I think you're fine. Probably have a think.

[A]

I'm intrigued.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm more intrigued now.

[A]

I've broken loads of rules. Okay.

[B]

Let'S have one you're most proud of.

[A]

I genuinely don't know, honestly. It's just my way of life. I don't accept the status quo.

[B]

It's just a constant.

[A]

Yeah, okay.

[B]

Well, one that stands out in your memory. You take your time. There's no rush.

[A]

I mean, I guess if any boaters are listening to this, they'll be like, what a fun. But I'm not sure if this is the proudest of. But it's just first thing that comes to mind, really, when you live on the river, you need to get a license for your boat. It's like over a thousand per year. You need to have your, like, safety certificate and you're meant to move every two weeks. Yeah, I haven't got a license, I haven't got a safety certificate. And I'd been in one place for two years. Like, like, obviously some people on the other side of the river, they look down on us. They're terrible people. Let's not talk to them. Like, some people just judge us just on that. And it's not nice because they just, like, see us as subhuman. They don't want to talk to us. But, yeah, like, I know that I'm trying to do a good thing.

[B]

So what's a good thing?

[A]

I'm trying to create a community space or like a community wildlife garden on a piece of land that's been neglected. The council doesn't care about it. The charity that's meant to look after it doesn't care about it. The trees are dying. There's loads of mess and rubbish, and I'm trying to clean it up and invite people in and share it. There's Loads of fruit trees. I've been pruning the, like, the plum trees. I got into trouble for that. I'm like, I just don't give a fuck. I'm going to keep going. What's the worst that can happen? Yeah, for fuck's sake. The plum tree is dying because no one's looked after it. As humans, we have done orchards for, like, a really, really long time. Like, in ancient Egypt, people had fruit trees and that kind of fed the people. And, like, here I am living to a bunch of plum trees which are dying because no one cares for them. So I just started caring for them even though I don't have permission, even though I'm breaking the rules. But some people who live on land next to me, they've reported me to the council. So I got a telling off last week. But I'm like, I have to do it.

[B]

Good on you. The right thing to do. Good on you for doing it. I'm intrigued how, with all the kind of not having a license, all these things, surely people are onto you.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

No, I've gotten away with it so far. How have you done that? I don't know. I mean, to be fair, like, all of us on that mooring, none of us have licenses. So the mooring has a reputation for that. Unlike, the authorities came a month ago and they put letters on most boats saying, I'm going to take you to court if you don't get a license. But they didn't put a letter on my boat. Like, I don't know. The world works in a. In weird ways. There's like loads of coincidences and I genuinely feel that, like, I'm being guided in a certain direction to do, like, something positive and that I'm kind of being protected. I can't explain it any more than that. I just. I feel something within me and I'm going in that way and somehow I'm getting away with it. Like, I've done loads of that. People get in trouble for. So far, I've been okay, but tomorrow I might get hit by a bus, who knows? And, like, even if I did get hit by a bus, that's okay as well. Like, it's fine.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I have. I have trust. I trust destiny.

[B]

Let's imagine someone's listening to this who wouldn't classify themselves as a rule breaker. Yeah, but they'd be quite, you know, they're quite keen to dab or at least, you know, express themselves in that way. What would you say to them is a good, good place to start, to.

[A]

Be honest, I'd say, like, the number one thing is.

[D]

To.

[A]

To try to get away from people. And I don't mean, like, become isolated from everyone forever. I just mean we're monkeys and we seek social validation. We're social animals. That means as children grow up, they find a group that's like their peer group and they seek validation from that group. As a result, they can't do things that the group will look down on. So I'd say it's really, really key to get away from, like, identifying with just one group. Let's say you are queer or you believe you're queer and you just hang out with other queer people. That means you're not able to think anything that will clash with their views. Because as soon as you say, oh, actually, I think slightly differently, your friend circle, you're gonna become an outcast. So subconsciously you're never gonna disagree with them because you don't want to be isolated.

[B]

What you're saying is people seek validation. They form groups.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Whatever group you have to have fallen down into.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You seek to please.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And rule breaking is about not worrying about pleasing people.

[A]

Exactly. Maybe don't be in just one group.

[B]

One group.

[A]

Be in different groups. And like, it's. It's okay to distance yourself from a group sometimes and find a new group. Like, I'd say that's. That's one thing I've done in my life quite a lot. I've been in many different groups and that really helped me to like, figure out what I think, because, like, I have friends who, like, one might be a millionaire, the other one might be homeless, and they'll just like, never ever, you know, come across each other. Or like, one might be quite racist and one might not speak any English. Like, do you know what I mean? So don't be in just one group. A lot of people, unfortunately, that I've met, they tend to be kind of in one group.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They might talk about diversity, but their circle is not diverse. Like, that happens a lot as well.

[B]

Yeah, that's very common. Okay, interesting. But then, like, once you. I feel like that's quite good advice in the start. How are you actually acting to break these rules and what are you doing as a. You know, you starting small.

[A]

So that's the thing. It's really hard to be prescriptive about something like this because it's. I like. What I do personally is, like, I ride around on my bike and I look around the world. So look around me. What's going on and I'm looking for things that don't make sense, inconsistencies and just reflect on it and try to imagine what is it like to be in that person's shoes or like I'm just following a feeling and I'm seeing what comes up. It's really, it's very intricately tied in with knowing yourself and like trusting yourself. So like I used to be really insecure.

[B]

What are you insecure about?

[A]

My appearance, for example. Like I'd be like, what should I wear? I'd ask my girlfriend, you know, girlfriend at the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To help me with like choosing what to wear because like she had fashion tastes. I wanted to be cool and I was relying on someone that's already cool. But then eventually I was able to come out of the cool circle and look at the so called cool people and like actually you guys are not cool at all. You all just copy each other. You're boring. So yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's really about like believing more in yourself and trusting yourself. And that takes a long time to, to figure out. But if you always hang out with one group of people, it's going to be really, really hard to break rules.

[B]

So many questions to ask you related to stuff you've already said. First one I'm going to say, obviously you're someone that's experienced a lot of kind of ill feeling towards like nice things you've done. Can you think of like an act of appreciation or kindness from a stranger that's moved you?

[A]

This, this, this, this does happen sometimes. Just give me a moment, I will recall something.

[B]

It's got to be someone that's done one nice thing.

[A]

Yeah, no, for sure. Lots of people. In fact, one of my neighbors, he's like 80 and gives me bread pretty much all the time. He lives in the house opposite the boat. And yeah, he just sees that I'm busy gardening and he brings out bread to me.

[B]

Oh, how sweet that he's made or just has.

[A]

Oh no, basically his wife buys too much. Really. So yeah, he can't eat at all. He just gives it to me. But he's, yeah, he's a really nice guy as well. And it's, it's, it's kindness. They give you time, they notice you. A lot of people, they'll just be polite, they'll say the right thing, but they don't actually give a.

[B]

It's interesting, isn't it, that kind of, you know the difference between someone just saying a pleasant treat to you like, hi, whatever. Yeah, you know, that's fine. It's better than nothing, obviously. But the difference between that and, like, giving someone some bread, for instance, it's just enormous.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

It's an enormous difference for not that much more.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Hate that. That's a sad reality. Is it? Like, so many people are so close to making so much more impact like that. It's not that much more.

[A]

That's. That's the thing. I do not know why, but a lot of people have been really kind to me. And I keep wanting, wondering, is this a coincidence? Like, why are people kind to me? But, like, another neighbor in the same block of houses, she's also given me loads of food. And, like, that's food that she. She cooked. I'm like, why are you being so generous? And she's like, well, almost all my family is in Turkey, and I just. I want to share. And she just, like, comes over to my boat, gives me food. Or there's a. There's another. Another elderly Irish guy that passes by through the park. He picks the plums, and he brought me jam that he made with the plums. That's the thing. I've. Like, my social circle used to be, like, people younger than me, and now my social circle or people I interact with, they tend to be, like, older people in the 50s, 60s, 70s. I feel they're really human.

[B]

Yeah. Makes sense. Oh, I think, you know, like, again, it's like. It's a classic. Like, you know, you. You get back what you. What you put in is that, you know, you. Or what you put out, whatever, you know, like, you know, you. You carry in you. What you do.

[A]

It's magical that people can sense it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because in the age of science, in the age of, like, analyzing everything, we don't have some sort of scientific proof for this reading.

[B]

Oh, we all know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think we do face reading without knowing it. Just relentlessly, you know, who I choose to sit next to will make a huge difference.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Will change the day for me or change everything. Change whatever happens.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like, when I walked past you, it was. It was, like, instinctually very obvious that I should ask you, you know, it's like, definitely. Yeah.

[A]

It's not following your intuition.

[B]

Exactly. Obviously. You seem to me like quite a courageous person in many ways.

[A]

Sometimes too courageous for my own good. Can you think of it.

[B]

Can you think of a time where, like, looking back, like, you wish you did have more, even though you have a lot.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That you didn't have enough or you wanted more at some point.

[A]

I'd say with girls, okay, I don't have enough courage. There can be a bit shy.

[B]

What's so scary about these girls?

[A]

Fear of rejection. Yeah, so that's, that's another thing, like in my childhood, like I fancied by a lot of girls and like the feelings weren't mutual cuz I was just like the weird outsider kid. And I think that still has stayed with me. I don't have that courage a lot of the time. But to be honest, I feel sometimes I'm too courageous with like what I'm doing at the moment. Because like some of my neighbors, they've, they, they come from a different world in the sense of prison or doing not nice things. And I'm just like naively stepping on people's toes cuz we're sharing the space. So if I do something, if they don't approve of it, they might, you know, it might result in drama for me. When you live next to people who have been pushed to the edge, they might do unpredictable things. The river is a cross between social housing and the mental health institution. You have to tread carefully.

[B]

Have there been any magical boat moments?

[C]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Two weeks ago I convinced somebody to move their boat to make space for the circus boat. The circus boat came and did the performance. They've been doing a performance there every summer for 15 years. That's the only space where the boat to form the circus boat could perform. But like there's no space there normally. So I had to, I had to ask someone to make space. And his dog had died like that week. Well I think two dogs.

[B]

The person you asked to move the.

[A]

Boat and he was, he was away for a few days and that guy wasn't coming back home. But yeah, he like at the last moment he came back home and I'm like, hey, I know you're going through a tough time but you know, could you please move your boat just a little bit for a day and a half. So yeah, he moved and the circus boat performed. There was a big audience, loads of kids. Everyone was happy. Magical moment.

[C]

Then they left.

[A]

And back to the usual.

[B]

Well, as long as these magical moments every now and again to break up the. Yeah, the complicated times.

[A]

Yeah, I have some hope, but I'll take some luck. It's just, it's a lonely journey sometimes.

[B]

You know, that's life. Lonely old journey sometimes. You mentioned your friend died.

[A]

Yeah, a year ago. I say my closest friend.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Talk me through that whole experience. Like you Know, was it. Was it sudden and kind of, what. What impact has it had on you?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So I guess. I guess the backstory is that we would hang out, like, constantly during uni, and our paths diverged a bit. He was studying medicine and his girlfriend was as well, so they went off to do doctor stuff. He moved to Glasgow with her. But, yeah, Covid happened during that time, and he had. He had. He had lupus and autoimmune disease. But anyway, during COVID the lupus kind of came back and he had to take a lot of time off work, so he couldn't become a doctor because of his health. Basically, yeah. So he had to drop out, essentially. Meanwhile, all his friends, including his girlfriend, they're continuing becoming doctors. He started drinking heavily during that time. Spirits. His drinking got quite bad, and he and his girlfriend decided to move back to London. So, yeah, fast forward a little bit. His girlfriend broke up with him because of the drinking. He was living by himself. I was reconnecting with him at this point, and I had just kind of started reading a book about childhood trauma and how people with unhealed childhood trauma often develop addictions. And page after page, I'm just reading and I'm like, I'm thinking about my friend because I'm like, fuck, this sounds so familiar. This is like. Like, this is just like. This sounds just like him. So I'm like, hey, man, let's. Let's catch up. Let's have a dinner. So we catch up and we have dinner, we talk for three hours. It feels just like before. Isn't like close friendship. We talk about many different things. He says that he had quit drinking. He's seeing someone else. That seems to be going well. He's doing his Masters. He's, like, laughing about things. He seems totally fine. This was February last year. And then, like, we scheduled another time to catch up, but basically the next thing, a month later, is his dad sends me a message saying, come to the hospital. And like, a week later, he died where he had liver failure because he was just drinking too much vodka and he was lying to people.

[B]

So did you get a chance to say goodbye to him?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Like, I was there while he was dying. He couldn't really talk. How did it impact me? I realized that, like, if you don't look into what's happened to you in your childhood, it can really you up. So he was sexually abused by his aunt as a child, and he hadn't told anyone about that, not his family. I mean. So, yeah, it's really Common when, when people get, when children are sexually abused by family members, they, it tends to result in complications later in life. But the impact it's my friend's death has had on me is that I'm now much more aware when people seem fine. You know, they seem happy. I don't just, I don't buy it when people seem too happy. I really don't buy it. I can pick up on like the littlest signs that people can sometimes show where I'm like. So I've become just a lot more aware when people are trying to escape something, escape themselves, distract themselves. Because like technology, namely our phones, they're distraction machines. So if you feel like a lot of emotional pain, if you have a lot of unhealed trauma, the last thing you want to do is face that pain because that's, that's painful. So let me avoid that pain either by drinking or social media or like whatever else you can do on your phone. That's really, really scary because it's become normalized. You know, if we saw kids drinking bottles of vodka, we'd be like, oh, what the is going on? That's mad. But we see kids on tik tok hours a day. That's fine, that's normal. But it's, it's kind of the same thing. Cuz you live in an illusion. It's not reality anyway. The impact as I said, has been like, I'm much more aware of how people escape their pain. And I think a lot of people are escaping pain.

[B]

One last is actually this is less of a question, more of a thing to do. I've only done it once before, but I quite want to try again, see if it works on a bench. So sometimes I ask people to like to say what we can see. But instead of that, if you were to look ahead, but this time close your eyes and think back to a memory. A room, a place, being somewhere and seeing, seeing something clearly. And I want you to try and describe in as much detail as you can, like what you can see, what you go back to.

[A]

I'm on a mountain in Scotland 15 years ago. Very clear, calm lake in front of me. Blue sky. There's not, there's not much else I can see. It's very quiet. It's a little village basically. I stayed there for a couple of weeks. But yeah, it's, it's, there's just loads of plants around and some trees in the distance. It's very, very peaceful and not stressful.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I feel safe.

[B]

Great. I like that vision.

[A]

Beautiful.

[B]

Lovely. We've done well. Thank you so much.

[A]

Talk to me. Me. So that was two minutes.

[B]

You said that the flew by, didn't it?

[A]

Time almost kind of just stopped.

[B]

Okay, last question for you.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

What are you going to do next?

[A]

I'm going to go to the garden center and the help of the guy was watering the plants. How about you?

[B]

Oh, God. I think I might try and talk to one more person before I go home.

[A]

Long day?

[B]

Yeah, it can be long. Very long.

[A]

But how often do you do it?

[B]

I don't know. It depends when I can.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So there'll be some weeks where I go out a few times a week.

[A]

There's no tire out. Tire you out?

[B]

Yeah. It is really tiring.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But I do have. I've got a pretty decent social battery and I've got used to it as well.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But still. Yeah, it's quite a lot.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Thank you so much for talking to me.

[A]

My pleasure. Thank you for asking good questions again.

[B]

My pleasure. I've really enjoyed it.

[D]

There was a kindness into neighbors. Sharing bread and sometimes making way for the circus. It was a sickness making money in the city so I made a home on the river I'm on the lookout for the things that don't make sense it turns out I'm not alone here he kicked the door down Picked the flowers and then told me I should to sail far from these waters it took a turn Turns out this was the dream Push to the edge Now I've been pulled back to sea I don't want to escape but I still want to leave this is not the place for me I'm breaking rules and finding roots it sometimes feels like something holding me captive no one here looks like me but that's all right I'll share the space and open the gates to the garden oh, it took a turn Turns out this was the dream Push to the edge Now I've been pulled back to the sea I don't want to escape but I still want to leave this is not the place for you this is this is not the place for me this is not the place for me this is not the place for me Sa.