EPISODE 59: The Back of His Neck

Summary

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Strangers on a Bench

Episode 59: The Back of His Neck
Host: Tom Rosenthal
Date: October 27, 2025

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Overview

This intimate episode of Strangers on a Bench captures Tom Rosenthal’s spontaneous bench-side conversation with a thoughtful, reflective woman navigating a transitional period of her life. The discussion unfolds on a sunny day in a London park, blending light-hearted moments with deep explorations of identity, purpose after retirement, and complex family experiences—highlighted by the poignant motif of observing her son's wedding from the pews. True to the series’ theme, anonymity drives candor, culminating in powerful insights about loss, joy, and 'unstuckness.' The episode ends with a poetic song by Tom, inspired by the conversation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Joy and Symbolism of Fridays

• Favorite Day: The interviewee immediately claims Friday as her favorite, associating it with hope, energy, and transition from work life to weekend freedom.
  • "Friday. Hopeful going into the weekend because I've worked all my life, so Friday was like a joy." (00:53)
• Routine: She describes waking up as an act of “springing” out of bed, a direct contrast to her slow-motion Mondays—a metaphor for anticipation and optimism.
  • "You wake up, and it’s kind of bounding up and then literally jumping out of bed. No hesitation. Just. It's Friday." (01:37)

2. Fast Walking and Family Dynamics

• Inherited Pace: Fast walking, both physically and in terms of lifestyle, is a defining trait inherited from her parents and present in her relationships—occasionally causing friction with her slower husband and setting the tempo in family interactions.
  • "To slow down actually causes me to have to think about causing slow pain." (02:38)

3. Life After Work: Identity, Purpose, and 'Stuckness'

• Transition to Retirement: She reveals she left her long-term career in January and is struggling with how to fill her days now that big events (like her son’s wedding) have passed.
  • "After a lifetime of work, it’s like, what do I really do with my time?" (04:32)
• Fear vs. Opportunity: The absence of financial necessity paradoxically deepens the existential question of ‘what to do next,’ creating a sense of 'burden' and emotional 'stuckness.'
  • "It’s almost a greater need than that. In some ways it would be easier if I did...That creates more of a burden. That makes sense." (06:24)
• Seeking Fulfillment: She feels drawn to more social and creative pursuits, possibly within her Irish community or in a creative team, and considers volunteering to feel 'useful.'

4. Family, Joy, and Intergenerational Connection

• Source of Joy: Family—and especially her son—provides immense happiness, as does the community built around friends and relatives.
  • "I think definitely things related to our son...that’s where the greatest joy would be, I’d say." (10:39)
• Nurturing Instinct: She is motivated by helping others, finding fulfillment in acts of support, and recognizes this as a potential route to new purpose.
  • "For me, that absolutely is really motivating." (12:19)
• Advice From Tom: Tom suggests doing something radical to shake off 'stuckness,' such as a solo walking adventure, which she considers intriguing and intimidating.

5. Marital and Parental Relationships

• Partner Differences: She discusses her husband's pragmatic approach (just 'go out and do it'), her need for self-reflection before involving him, and the subtle tensions such transitions create.
  • "I don’t feel yet ready to involve him because I need some straightening out or I need some unstuckness, I think, in your words." (15:01)
• Openness with Son: She keeps these struggles private from her son, but his wife quickly notices her need to work, validating her internal sense of unrest.

6. Grief, Loss, and Moving Forward

• Child Loss: A deeply personal moment emerges as she recounts the loss of her first child, the differing coping mechanisms between her and her husband, and how such a seismic event affected her approach to life and work.
  • "We had one child, sadly, who lived four and a half months and then died...the loss was so great. And I recognized that it was not just the loss at that moment, but the loss of his future and our future." (25:11, 28:34)
  • She coped by diving back into work and becoming “intolerant” of overt displays of sympathy, coining the term “Sunday voice.”
  • "I became intolerant of people talking about him in a, I called a Sunday voice." (27:09)
• Memory and Remembrance: The family honors his memory quietly—visiting the grave, including his name in special events, but not dwelling in public grief.

7. The Symbolism of “The Back of His Neck”

• Wedding Moment: The episode’s titular image comes as she describes an unexpectedly emotional moment at her son’s wedding. More than the grand events, it's seeing "the back of his neck"—the vulnerable and familiar—that jolts her with emotion.
  • "It was actually looking at the back of his neck...made me emotional. And I don’t know why." (34:16)
  • Tom reflects, "Do you think it’s like he’s facing away from you, maybe, and into a new future...forging his own path?" (35:30)
• Symbolism: This singular detail provokes thoughts on parenthood, separation, and the subtle moments of transition that often cut the deepest.

8. Revisiting Youth and the Spirit of Adventure

• 16-Year-Old Self: Tom encourages her to see her current situation as a 'blank canvas,' akin to being 16, inviting her to rekindle the mischievous, playful side from her youth.
• Adventure as Healing: The idea of a fast-walking journey—possibly across Ireland—surfaces as a metaphorical and literal pathway for reclaiming independence and redefining herself beyond traditional roles.

9. Community, Football, and Fitting In

• Family Football: While not a committed fan, she “trails along” for major events, finding joy in community and togetherness.
  • "For me, it's joining in the big event…Would I go every week? No, but I absolutely loved it." (19:44, 20:10)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Stuckness and Action:
  • "The thing I’m really clear on is I need to act. And it may not be right, whatever I do first or second or third...but actually the stuckness is the thing, completely. And the acting is the only thing that moves the needle." — Interviewee & Tom (13:18-13:39)
• On Viewing the Past and the Future:
  • "Maybe you’ve prompted a different way of thinking. Maybe sat on this bench. Maybe it was meant to be." — Interviewee (09:44)
• On the Back of His Neck:
  • "It was actually looking at the back of his neck...made me emotional. And I don’t know why." — Interviewee (34:16)
  • "As a mother, you’ve always seen...the back of that head thousands of times in different ways...and you would have trained your eye to know it so well that it stood out in that moment amongst all the other stuff going on." — Tom Rosenthal (36:39)
• On Loss and Memory:
  • "It was so monumental, the loss was so great. And I recognized that it was not just the loss at that moment, but the loss of his future and our future." — Interviewee (28:34)
  • "I became intolerant of people talking about him in a, I called a Sunday voice." — Interviewee (27:09)
• On What's Next:
  • "I’m going to go away and have a think and I’m going to take some action. You’ve been helpful, actually. I know it was pure accident, but I’m going to take away the stuckness and I feel like I’m going to take some action and I don’t know what that is." — Interviewee (38:57)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Favorite Day, Joy of Fridays: 00:47–01:49
• Fast Walking & Family: 02:02–03:41
• Discussion of Retirement ‘Stuckness’: 04:02–06:34
• Exploring Family Joy & Identity: 10:39–12:28
• Tom’s Advice on Unstuckness & Adventure: 12:41–13:40
• Grief and Loss of First Child: 25:11–28:34
• Symbolism of Son’s Wedding & “Back of His Neck”: 34:16–36:04
• Closing Reflections, Action, and Ending Song: 38:57–end

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Tone & Language

The conversation weaves warmth and humor (“hop out of bed because it’s Friday...instant spring”), self-deprecating honesty, and raw, reflective candor. Tom’s gentle prompts encourage narrative flow, resulting in a simultaneously comforting and profound tone—underscored in the final poetic musical summary.

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Notable Song Excerpt (End Credits)

Tom closes with a gently sung, narrative poem summarizing the interviewee’s journey:

“She watched the back of his neck, her whole life in that inch of skin...
Only child but not really, and now she can hear that island is calling to her,
she says come home, come quickly...she sets off alone but not alone
Gotta trust your own journey
Gotta walk and walk quickly” (39:57–42:09)

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Summary

This episode of Strangers on a Bench eloquently captures a stranger’s search for meaning in life’s second act. Through themes of routine, family, grief, and fleeting moments of revelation ("the back of his neck"), Tom Rosenthal gently guides a compelling, anonymous story of transition. The conversation finds hope in action, kinship, and remembering—to help listeners face their own crossroads and ‘walk quickly’ into whatever comes next.

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Transcript

[Interviewer]

Hello. Sorry to bother you. Can I ask you a slightly odd question? I'm making a podcast called Strangers on a Bench, where essentially I talk to people I don't know on benches for 10 or 15 minutes. Are you up for that? Do you want to give it a go? Are you ready?

[Interviewee]

I am. I'm stunned.

[Interviewer]

Go on. What's your favorite day of the week?

[Interviewee]

Friday. Hopeful going into the weekend because I've worked all my life, so Friday was like a joy.

[Interviewer]

Let's go from waking up to going to bed. What is your idea of a Friday really well lived?

[Interviewee]

Hopping out of bed because it is Friday. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Love it.

[Interviewee]

You kind of hop out with a really good feeling, kind of thinking, oh, my God.

[Interviewer]

So it's just like instant spring.

[Interviewee]

Instant spring.

[Interviewer]

You don't sit there and bear things.

[Interviewee]

No, not on a Friday.

[Interviewer]

Every other.

[Interviewee]

Well, on a Monday, you might kind of. You kind of slow motion out of.

[Interviewer]

Bed, but Friday, you are springing always. I'm trying to imagine what this spring looks like. You try and describe it.

[Interviewee]

You're horizontal. You wake up, and it's kind of bounding up and then literally jumping out of bed. No hesitation. Just. It's Friday.

[Interviewer]

And then how. How quickly are you into action after that?

[Interviewee]

After a shower, cup of coffee, straight into it. And then thinking about that early finish.

[Interviewer]

So it's like a big sprint. Are you a sprinter?

[Interviewee]

I'm a fast walker all my life.

[Interviewer]

So there we go.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. This is in me.

[Interviewer]

Who made you walk fast?

[Interviewee]

I think it's genetic. I think my parents were fast workers.

[Interviewer]

Oh, hang on. Sorry. Walkie or working now? Both.

[Interviewee]

Both. I meant fast walker and hard work.

[Interviewer]

They do, yeah. So you're still a fast walker.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Always been a fast walker because your parents are fast?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I think it's. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You just speed past people when you're walking.

[Interviewee]

I do. And in fact, I drive my husband nuts because he's not. And to slow down actually causes me to have to think about causing slow pain. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know what? This is perfect. You said this because I'm also a very fast walker.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It is a problem, I think. Sorry. It's not a problem if you're alone. But, you know, I walk with my children. They have to be really fast now and then when they walk with their friends, they're too fast. And I'm always just a bit ahead of everyone.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It's just quite tiring.

[Interviewee]

Frustrating because you're waiting.

[Interviewer]

So how do you manage husband, then? When you're walking with husband, I just.

[Interviewee]

Get really irritated Thinking, oh, come on. And then if he's going, oh, you walk too fast, which he says often, then I just start kind of playing around, almost walking very slow.

[Interviewer]

Does this mean you don't go walking together?

[Interviewee]

We do. No, we do a lot because live in. Around the corner here and we've got a little dog and we would often take him out. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Together.

[Interviewee]

Yep. So it can be a problem. One of life's problems.

[Interviewer]

What are your other problems?

[Interviewee]

Sorry?

[Interviewer]

What are your other problems?

[Interviewee]

So at the. At the moment, my current problem. This is a. I don't know whether you. This is right for this Everything's Right for Everything podcast, but I finished up work in January and. And I'm thinking of going back to work, but for now, I don't quite know what to do with my time.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Interviewee]

Is that too deep or nutty or ridiculous?

[Interviewer]

That's just completely reasonable.

[Interviewee]

After a lifetime of work, it's like, what do I really do with my time?

[Interviewer]

That's a very reasonable question to ask.

[Interviewee]

So much of your life. You don't even think that. And I never thought that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

And it's the first time since January I don't quite know what to do.

[Interviewer]

Interesting. So you've been fine since January. This is coming come up now.

[Interviewee]

Well, the truth is, part of filling my time from January was our son got married beginning of June. So there were lots of things.

[Interviewer]

Oh, Things to look forward to.

[Interviewee]

And I feel now that we're back from all of that, it's almost like.

[Interviewer]

Suddenly like, oh, God, what now?

[Interviewee]

What now?

[Interviewer]

And you know, do you fear it or do you see it as an opportunity?

[Interviewee]

If I'm honest, I dreaded it. If I was to sit there day and be totally honest on this park bench, it would actually be that I dread it. But I actually, I kind of see glimmers of opportunity. But it's not been my first thought. Yeah. If that makes sense.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

I don't want you to think I'm in a big hole, but it is just a really new.

[Interviewer]

Oh, it's thought for me. It's very understandable.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Your brain has been hardwired.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

For the all Action, action, action, action. Obvious Purpose, purpose, purpose.

[Interviewee]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer]

And suddenly you'd strip that away and that's. Anyone would struggle and it's like, what?

[Interviewee]

What is it I need to be doing, should be doing, want to do. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

When you see glimmers, what are you seeing when you see those?

[Interviewee]

Doing some work, but maybe different to what my core career was, you know, something even more social, more Creative. They're the kind of hopeful things.

[Interviewer]

Do you have to make money when you go back to do something?

[Interviewee]

No.

[Interviewer]

Okay. So that, so that's quite a big deal. That leaves you with many more options.

[Interviewee]

It does. But for me I think it, it's almost a greater need than that. In some ways it would be easier if I did.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, of course.

[Interviewee]

Right. Because then it would just be. Just be the hard facts of life. You just go and do it and you don't think, think about it. So actually it's. That creates more of a burden. That makes sense.

[Interviewer]

Makes perfect sense.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

In your kind of wildest thoughts, where have you ventured in your mind?

[Interviewee]

I've got an Irish background and one thing was that I do something in the Irish community. You know, obviously I've grown up with and loved the culture. I could be with people and make new friends. The other thought in my head is pure imagination, all those kind of things. And maybe it's with a bit of envy because my career was in corporate was to. How wonderful would it be to go into a creative space and a creative team?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

I sound like a mad woman, I think.

[Interviewer]

No, you don't at all. Honestly, I've seen everyone now and you're. You're really not on the mad scale.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. I'm glad you asked the question. This morning actually is quite a.

[Interviewer]

It's on your mind.

[Interviewee]

Funny play. It's on my mind all the time. So it's been there lurking for quite a while about. Okay, now what is it I need to do to feel. Feel like me?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a big one, isn't it?

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you think you felt like you enough of late to know what you want to replicate? No. And that's quite a big deal, isn't it?

[Interviewee]

And that's quite a big deal. Yeah. Because I really only know what feels like me when I'm in this life where it's fast paced and work is the backbone. So I really don't know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean it's first lazy, isn't it? Because let's imagine a 16 year old walks past here and they look at us, they look at you and they'll go, oh yeah, well she's lived all these years, she's bound to know what she's doing and often it's just not quite the case. Obviously you know what you're doing. Lots of weight but as in like for fundamentally also searching for a part of yourself that you've gone missing for a While. And we're all kind of doing that. We could do that anytime. Which is kind of beautiful. Really.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. But equally, I would look at that 16 year old if they were going past now and I think, aren't they lucky? They are at the start or they're in school so they've got the whole structure of learning and they've got whatever.

[Interviewer]

Could you look at yourself like that? In a sense, you know, I can say aren't you lucky you've got this almost. But blank canvas in front of you and. Or maybe even a kind of wider canvas than most because you don't have to make a certain amount of money in that sense. There is actually potentially more freedom there. Maybe.

[Interviewee]

No, maybe you've prompted a different way of thinking.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

Maybe sat on this bench. Maybe it was meant to be.

[Interviewer]

Tell me what the. I'm trying to think of ways to think about finding the. The core person who you're looking for. You know, let's go back to 16 then. Who were you as a 16 year old? I mean, what were you doing then?

[Interviewee]

Probably just done my gcse. I was living at home with my Irish parents and brother and sister. I was having fun with friends. Yeah. And I was a little bit full of fun and mischief.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. When you say mischief, what we're talking about?

[Interviewee]

Oh, just fooling around and joking around. Nothing very terrible, but yeah. Wanting a good giggle and laugh.

[Interviewer]

So you're just enjoying life?

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Playing around a bit.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Nothing was too heavy.

[Interviewee]

No.

[Interviewer]

Other than that. What does bring you joy generally?

[Interviewee]

I think definitely things related to our son enjoying being part of and hearing about what's happening in his life. And I have got to say we're very lucky. And he lives up the road, Sandy, two miles away, so it's not like it's long distance.

[Interviewer]

So you derive a lot of joy from your. From a child. You did? Just one.

[Interviewee]

Just one, yeah. And also being in the company of our friends and his friends because they're kind of slightly merged with parents and things. So if I think of a great evening, it is in a bar or pub and there's a big group and some of his family that we've known from when they were little and some are our friends because they may be parents of some of them or whatever. I see, yeah, I can see that picture and I've been in that picture only, you know, a week ago. So it's very current of course, and that that's where the greatest joy would be, I'd say.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I'm just Trying to think of things related to that, what you've just said for your future. You've enjoyed looking after someone.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You've enjoyed nurturing them. I guess you've enjoyed seeing that development.

[Interviewee]

Yep.

[Interviewer]

Do you think that's in you generally or is that just like, oh, it's my son, so I've done it. But that doesn't necessarily mean I would do it elsewhere.

[Interviewee]

I think I could do it. I feel that. Yeah. Because there's such a, you know, the person gets. In this case, my son and you get just something. Just something that you can feel if you're able to support and help in even the tiniest way. For me, that absolutely is really motivating.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewee]

Really motivating.

[Interviewer]

Completely. It's so simple really, isn't it? But I always just think if you can feel useful, you tend to feel better.

[Interviewee]

It is as simple as that. Exactly.

[Interviewer]

I mean, I think it sounds like you need to help some people.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Narrator]

Right. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And there's so many people that need help.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And there's so many places one can volunteer.

[Interviewee]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

But on the flip side, maybe it's also my general theory, with any kind of stuckness, sometimes you do need something a bit radical. Sometimes you really need to get out of your zones entirely, you know, to kind of start feeling the things. So I don't know exactly what that would be, but maybe it's an adventure of sorts. Maybe. Is there anywhere you like to go on your own maybe, or wander about or, you know, do your fast walking somewhere?

[Interviewee]

I think going on my own would probably be the adventure. It's not something I've ever done or something I've ever thought to do. So.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I think it's. Have a think.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. I also like the word you use, stuckness. Yeah, that's what I feel.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

And so I. The thing I'm really clear on is I need to act.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

And it may not be right, whatever I do first or second or third.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Interviewee]

But actually the Stockmas is the.

[Interviewer]

The is the thing completely. And the acting is the only thing that moves the needle.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I mean, yeah, you're completely right. It doesn't matter if it's slightly the wrong thing.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You're just moving.

[Interviewee]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

Which I think is the key. What does your husband think of your stuff? Darkness. Does he know he doesn't like it?

[Interviewee]

That is the absolute question to ask.

[Interviewer]

He's not seen it, of course.

[Interviewee]

Well, and it's not because it manifests greatly, but he senses that kind of friction of sort. Well, yeah. And that there's a gap.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

In me. So he really doesn't like it because that is. That's not his normal.

[Interviewer]

What's he telling you to do? I mean, does he have any big opinion?

[Interviewee]

All he's done is he's asked, do you want to work again? And I've said, yeah, I want to do something. Because work, you know, what is the definition of work? And. And then he'll go, oh, yeah, well, if you want to work again, you'll just go out there and do it and, you know, you'll have no problem. And in my head I'm thinking, that's just a flippant thought, really. Whereas I'm more, do I do something here or wouldn't it be lovely to do something there or. Or whatever. Anyway. But I can't blame him. And I. I don't feel yet ready to involve him because I need some straightening out or I need some unstuckness, I think, in your words.

[Interviewer]

But also it's. It's also completely nothing really to do with him in a way.

[Interviewee]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

I mean, you've done your stuff together. You raised a child, you built a house. You know, you've done all the things you need to do to do, and now it's you.

[Interviewee]

No, exactly. Other than to draw on him for support if I needed it, but other than that. You're absolutely right.

[Interviewer]

I mean, also, I'm guessing nothing you're going to do is going to radically change his life. No. You know, I mean, if you go away for a couple of months, he's going to be kind of exactly. Completely lost. And you're. What about your son? Does your son know about all this?

[Interviewee]

No, no, I would not lay that on.

[Interviewer]

Really. No.

[Interviewee]

No.

[Interviewer]

That's interesting.

[Interviewee]

The interesting thing is his now wife, who is just absolutely lovely and we've loved her from day one.

[Interviewer]

Oh, that's a bonus.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. Before the wedding, actually did say to me after the wedding, are you going back to work? Because she had an expectation I'd need it. And I think that's because over, you know, the last handful of years, we've got to know her. She got to know us. Because I was quite shocked when she said that.

[Interviewer]

Why were you shocked?

[Interviewee]

Well, it was just because she recognized it.

[Interviewer]

I saw it. I see.

[Interviewee]

I think it was just more. Someone's seen it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

And not everybody sees that. So it's like, okay.

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Tell me about day. I was. I wanted to do people, you know, you say you liked her from day one.

[Interviewee]

We Do.

[Interviewer]

I'm always interested in that first meeting when you meet your child's, I guess then, girlfriend.

[Interviewee]

Yep.

[Interviewer]

Do you remember what that's like? Quite a lot of pressure, isn't it? How you kind of navigate that is quite, Quite intriguing.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. So he. He really never brought anybody home or asked us to meet anybody in that capacity before. And then there was kind of a dripping of stuff in the weeks before that suggested he'd met this girl. And then he just said out of the blue, oh, it'd be good if you and dad met this girl. And. And why don't we go to, you know, a favorite bar, restaurant not far from here? And so we were really nervous, you know what I mean? It's like, oh, my God.

[Interviewer]

The first one who'd been happy.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. And you do a bit of Googling and you do a bit. Of course. And they. I'm sure they. You do a bit of Googling to try and find a picture or whatever.

[Interviewer]

I love that. And anything you found out from your Googling that was useful.

[Interviewee]

Well, it was useful. She was a teacher. So there was a photo.

[Interviewer]

Okay, cool.

[Interviewee]

Right. So that was helpful just because. Interesting you could say, why not ask your son? We wanted to be a bit cool about it. Oh, yeah, of course.

[Interviewer]

Amazing. Especially. Oh, definitely.

[Interviewee]

Anyway, she was just lovely and it was just helpful that there were a lot of things, a lot of coincidence, you know, and when we got home, my husband said to me, I understand why he likes that girl. And. And it's been consistent.

[Interviewer]

Did your nerves kind of fairly quickly dissipate at that. At that meeting? Were you nervous throughout?

[Interviewee]

No, I think we were very nervous, you know, and I was doing a lot of fast walking to get there on time and that. But they dissipated very quickly. And then the next kind of nervous event afterwards was meeting her parents.

[Interviewer]

Oh, of course. So that's a whole.

[Interviewee]

That's. Yeah, yeah. That's another one she don't quite know. So that back.

[Interviewer]

More Googling. There.

[Interviewee]

There was more Googling. Of course there was. Nobody meets anyone.

[Interviewer]

It's good to admit it, I find, because you're right. I mean, everyone. Everyone will do it. It's funny, but it's not talked about, is it? You know, no one mentions it, but of course it is.

[Interviewee]

Of course it's the first thing you do. Yeah, yeah, no, we did. I'm going to admit it was done. Absolutely. It's the first thought. And the first thing you kind of move to and such like.

[Interviewer]

And meeting parents is okay.

[Interviewee]

It was fine. Again, there were you know, people we had in common, background was similar. And football is a big thing in our family, if in their family. So that.

[Interviewer]

So you're a big football fan.

[Interviewee]

Well, I kind of trail along. Do you know what I mean?

[Interviewer]

It's big in the family.

[Interviewee]

It's big in the family, yes. Handed down from grandfather to sons.

[Interviewer]

What are the key. This is the first time I've had the chance to ask this question. How does one trail along in a football family sense? Even though you're not particularly that interested, what are the top tips for people who need to trail along?

[Interviewee]

This is what I do. I take an interest, but it doesn't fill my head.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Interviewee]

And I join in the big events.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Interviewee]

If you understand. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know what the players names are and stuff like that.

[Interviewee]

Oh, I might know one, probably.

[Interviewer]

How does Player X. How are they getting on?

[Interviewee]

Yes, exactly. But for me, it's joining in the big event. So that might be going to the playoffs at Wembley, which I did do.

[Interviewer]

Oh, so you went to get.

[Interviewee]

I did.

[Interviewer]

How did he get on in the game?

[Interviewee]

I thought it was fantastic, really. Honestly, the atmosphere and the people and the feeling of oneness. Well, twoness, I suppose. One each team was fantastic. Honestly, I absolutely enjoyed it. Would I go every week? No, but I absolutely loved it.

[Interviewer]

Did you find yourself singing any songs of this in Wembley?

[Interviewee]

Well, only kind of quietly. You know, I was actually more in awe of watching the people because they were kind of such small children to, you know, quite old people, and everyone was just there for their team.

[Interviewer]

So you were looking at the fans as much as the game, which I think actually is probably quite a sensible thing.

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I was intrigued.

[Interviewer]

I mean, you're surrounded by. There's only 22 players on the pitch, you're surrounded by a whole.

[Interviewee]

But I felt really good there. It was just. The atmosphere was so fantastic and it was just. Just amazing.

[Interviewer]

Did the right team win?

[Interviewee]

Well, what happened was they weren't winning and then they drew and then they were playing really badly. So I sat down and all of a sudden there was a fluke goal and the right team won. And I would not have predicted it.

[Interviewer]

What happened to you? When the. And so there was a goal jumped.

[Interviewee]

On me, I had sat down in the seat. They were all standing up because it was so near the end of the match and I'd sat down, he literally jumped on me. And then it was just amazing afterwards with singing and it was the best chaos you would want to be in.

[Interviewer]

What's it like having your husband jump on You.

[Interviewee]

He's a big fella. So it was very. I didn't know what had happened, I guess.

[Interviewer]

I guess you thought that maybe there was a goal.

[Interviewee]

I did. I did.

[Interviewer]

What drew you to your husband initially?

[Interviewee]

Humor. We were young. We lived locally here, and we were just a group of girls going out, and he was in a group of lads, and we just used to meet up and just have fun and giggle and laugh at things. That was it.

[Interviewer]

Do you remember the first moment of king Connection you felt to him, like. So when, you know, there was a kind of locking in of sorts?

[Interviewee]

I'm not sure an exact moment. It was more about.

[Interviewer]

It's a bit gradual, a bit oozing.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. Kind of towards something. Yeah. And back then, we were so much younger, you know, and kind of.

[Interviewer]

What are we talking about?

[Interviewee]

So when we got married, you know, My husband was 21 and I was 20.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Interviewee]

But that. That was almost expected.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, but that's still. They're still young.

[Interviewee]

No, it is, but back then, it was just so normal. So. Yeah. Do you.

[Interviewer]

I mean this in the best possible way, this question? What. I mean, the least negative way in my head, at least, is what I'm thinking. You know, 23, 21, obviously, you know, really young.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I'm guessing also you got. If you got married, then you met him.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Before that.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. He was probably 17.

[Interviewer]

So you met him at 19. So you've been together with him since 19.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay. So also, that would tell me or anybody, really, there wasn't so much developmental time away from this person.

[Interviewee]

No, that's right.

[Interviewer]

So in relation to your current situation, I mean, that's kind of relevant.

[Interviewee]

It's a really great point. Point. You're right, because that absolutely is the. Is the case. And in the kind of community I grew up in, that was quite normal for everybody. You didn't even live together, so you were kind of with your parents, then you got married. And you're right. No development without that person. Whereas if I look at my son's life to date, very different kind of the. He was at home, he went to uni, he lived with his best friend for five years.

[Interviewer]

To find his feet in his own particular way.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. And have different. Completely different experiences.

[Interviewer]

And I think that's quite significant.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That you might not have had that.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Maybe this is lending itself for the. For the. For the solo adventure.

[Interviewee]

Maybe. Maybe that was never done. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. How quickly did you have a child, Elintra?

[Interviewee]

No, that took us that. We waited a long time for that how come? We had one child, sadly, who lived four and a half months and then died. So that then kind of shuddered us. He was born prematurely and then he got an infection so his lungs wouldn't develop. So, you know, that was really difficult. So we were kind of almost 30 and 32 by the time son came along.

[Interviewer]

See, your child who died, that was beforehand?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that.

[Interviewer]

How did that. Obviously, you know, just the worst experience to go through. I mean, but how was. What did that do to you?

[Interviewee]

I mean, we were very lucky because our parents, both sides, were Hayden Carty. And, you know, we had such huge support and things. And support from friends and things. I think one of the things it did was show up the difference between me and my husband. So during the process, I was all about the facts. You know, what are the numbers? What is the whatever. And my husband was more philosophical. Oh, he'll be all right. He's going nowhere. And those two things really didn't fit together. I found what he was saying fickle. I was, you know, reading the numbers and he found that, I think, abrasive. And that was. That was one thing we learned. We were in totally different approaches. Yeah, yeah. In those four and a half months, that was what was there in front of us.

[Interviewer]

What changed in you after the death?

[Interviewee]

That's a really good point. I don't think I've ever thought about it because I did what I did always, which was get back to fast walking and hard working and therefore just not really reflect on it. One of the things I became intolerant of people talking about him in a. I called a Sunday voice.

[Interviewer]

What do you mean by that?

[Interviewee]

You know, when somebody's putting all kind of this sadness into.

[Narrator]

Oh, no.

[Interviewee]

Oh, wow. Wow. And. And I. I found after he died that I would get that quite a lot. And. And I. I just found it. I just couldn't.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Tolerate it is the kind of direct.

[Interviewee]

I just wanted, if there were words to be said, let them be said in a normal manner. Not with this Sunday voice was my. Was my badge for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

See, what you're saying here is what I'm understanding at least. You've not necessarily really thought about it that much, but it's obviously a monumental thing.

[Interviewee]

A monumental. Exactly.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So what am I saying? Why haven't you thought about it?

[Interviewee]

I think because it was so monumental, the loss was so great. And I recognized that it was not just the loss at that moment, but the loss of his future and our future. So it was almost like Because I needed to work. You know, the easiest thing was just get back to work and, and that you just become consumed and suddenly you're. And then very lucky then to have our. Our son, our other son. And he was totally fit and healthy and such like. But I think it was just. It was so monumental. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Can I ask maybe a slightly difficult question, but what was your first son like? It's obviously, you know, four and a half months of not long, but you're still enough to get a sense of someone.

[Interviewee]

I think the issue is that your head gets so full of watching these most awful things having to be done to your child and to see them crying not for the regular reasons of hunger or needing to be changed, but actually crying because there is pain or discomfort coming from, you know, just something awful. I could look and see. I think you would be good looking. I think you would be smart. But the majority was just looking and thinking, you know, this is just so desperate, just so desperately awful and recognizing there was nobody and no money we could bring. Solving. Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

How do you choose. How do you choose to remember? Now, obviously you can't forget that stuff. Like how often do you talk about him with your. With your other son or with, you know, or your husband or what happens on his birthday and so nothing dramatic.

[Interviewee]

On his, on his birthday, on the day he died. We'll mention it. So at my other son's wedding ceremony, the mass, he was remembered and he was remembered in the speeches at the reception. We don't do a lot of talking about him. We visit the grave. When my son was young, we made sure that he knew him and, you know, he was taken regularly to the grave and all that kind of thing, but we don't. We don't deliberately. My husband and I might just be out on a night, we might go, oh, you know, it's his birthday next week or something.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I suppose it's interesting, you know, when people give you kind of new information than you think about past things you said in relation to that. But, you know, you say you derive so much joy from your son and obviously it seems so crucial to your happiness. And then when you learn about your son that died, it adds an extra.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Kind of significance to that to me at least.

[Interviewee]

And I understand that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

As someone that's not experienced that, I'm obviously no place to say anything other than I. I do think when things are so seismic that if anything isn't really fully addressed, it always comes back to you, you know, back to you, likely. And Likely in a negative way.

[Interviewee]

Yep. I think that's right.

[Interviewer]

And I think. I think there's probably. There's odd alignments here also with general time now. Because also you're free to think these are the times when it will come out. Because how can that event not be completely intrinsic to you? It's in you.

[Interviewee]

I think you're absolutely right. And, you know, for decades, work and family has just filled the time, you know, and then having the headspace. This stuff does come in. Know.

[Interviewer]

Well, thank you for talking about it.

[Interviewee]

Thank you so. No, thank you. Thank you. I've enjoyed the experience. And I'll take away my stuckness. It's a good word.

[Interviewer]

Can I ask you a few more questions before I let you go? What was your son's wedding like?

[Interviewee]

Oh, my God. My husband's word for it is mighty.

[Interviewer]

Mighty.

[Interviewee]

That's fantastic. So it was just so good. It was in Ireland. My husband and I went out a few days early so we could spend time with the bride's family. And so that was fantastic. And it was just full of lovely people. Family, friends, both sides. They look so happy. We had a good time. And that's why, you know, kind of. We fell into a big low after.

[Interviewer]

Yes. It's such a euphoric moment. Hard to replicate.

[Interviewee]

It's just fantastic.

[Interviewer]

Can you think of a moment during it where you found yourself surprisingly emotional? Maybe not the kind of the obvious moment. Any moment that sounded like something kind of struck you.

[Interviewee]

I can. And it's just very weird. So not weird. But I feel myself getting emotional picturing it, which is a. Yeah. So when we were in the church and obviously the bride came down the aisle and. And my son took her hand and they're standing there and then they sit down and I can hardly say it, and it seems ridiculous to. To. And now I feel ridiculous because. And it was actually looking at the back of his neck.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

Made me emotional. And I don't know why. Why was it the back of his neck? I don't know. But it was that moment.

[Interviewer]

That's beautiful. But I'm now thinking about what that might mean. It's got to mean something because obviously it's triggered something in you.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you think it's like a kind of almost. He's looking away. He's facing away from you, maybe. And into a new future.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

With his partner. And is forging his own path.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. Could be.

[Interviewer]

In the same way you would have done when you got married. And there's a kind of separation. There isn't there? I don't know.

[Interviewee]

And it could be. It's great. Yeah. No, no, no, I think.

[Interviewer]

But it's fascinating. I mean, it's just such a wonderful image.

[Interviewee]

It was startling to me that, that image.

[Interviewer]

And it surprised you at the time?

[Interviewee]

It surprised me at the time because there were so many other images going on before the bride arrived and as the bride arrived. And then it was that one moment. It was.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Maybe there's something also in just, you know, in a wedding, you're kind of surrounded by paraphernalia, you know, flowers, everyone's dressed like this, everyone's got stuff in their hair, people got hats on, you know, it's all like, you know, very stuff based. And what you saw then, I'm guessing it's just skin. The purity of just the back of.

[Interviewee]

The head and, and, and the, you know, and, and obviously it's here going up.

[Interviewer]

You. You honed in on something. As a mother, you've always seen, you know, like you would have seen the back of that head thousands of thousands of times in different ways.

[Interviewee]

In different ways.

[Interviewer]

And you would have trained your eye to know it so well that it stood out in that moment amongst all the other stuff going on.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So that could be something as well.

[Interviewee]

Could.

[Interviewer]

Could be all day speculating about the back of the neck. Really. I mean, it's really interesting.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I was going to ask you really flippantly. Obviously there's been a sports day happening in front of us. We've actually seen it off.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you recall any of your school sports day?

[Interviewee]

I do, I do. They can spoon race. Definitely. Absolutely.

[Interviewer]

Were you good at it?

[Interviewee]

I was not bad, yeah. I could run a bit and I was very, very competitive.

[Interviewer]

Although it's not perfect for your fast walking.

[Interviewee]

Not perfect for my fast.

[Interviewer]

Not the ideal thing to have to carry as a fish.

[Interviewee]

I mean, sports day was always fantastic, wasn't it?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

Don't you think?

[Interviewer]

Well, they seem to have a lot of fun in front of us.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Interviewee]

And a lovely crowd here as well.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it was lovely.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But funny to think it's accompanied us this entire time.

[Interviewee]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

I just had a thought. Maybe on your adventure, maybe you could do some kind of fast walking basic. Maybe I could fast walk across Ireland.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do it for charity or something. It gives it a purpose.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

At the same time as you having a chance to be on your own a bit and meet people along the way.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Think about, maybe think about your life. I always like the idea of what people mention at the start being Somehow significant.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So maybe there's something in that.

[Interviewee]

There is.

[Interviewer]

Last question. You can either answer this in a today kind of way or a wider sense. What are you going to do next?

[Interviewee]

I'm going to go away and have a think and I'm going to take some action. You've been helpful, actually. I know it was pure accident, but I'm going to take away the stuckness and I feel like I'm going to take some action and I don't know what that is. And stop avoiding it because it's not actually making anything better. Thank you. I've enjoyed it.

[Interviewer]

Thank you.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And whatever. Whatever this action is that you take, I just wish you very, very best with it.

[Interviewee]

Thank you very much.

[Interviewer]

I think you're right. It doesn't matter what it is.

[Interviewee]

Any effort doesn't anym.

[Interviewer]

As long as it's something.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Narrator]

She watched him holding hands Saying vows Sat on the ground she watched her the back of his neck her whole life in that inch of skin A younger son who's on a journey.

[Interviewee]

An.

[Narrator]

Only child but not really and now she can hear that island is calling to her she says come home, come quickly Ooh, Ireland's got something in store for her she says come home, come quickly Come home Come quickly Come home Come home to me she was that chaperone the boy in some safety now where will she go? I guess the beauty is in the unknown she sets off alone but not alone Gotta trust your own journey Gotta walk and walk quickly and now she can hear that I am this calling out to she says come home, come quickly.

[Interviewee]

Oh.

[Narrator]

Got something in store for her she says come home, come quickly Come home quickly Come home, come home tonight Me.